[gui-talk] Different plan of attack
Doug Lee
dgl at dlee.org
Sat Jan 23 21:49:40 UTC 2010
I haven't managed to follow this thread carefully, but I can make a
few comments, as one who has spent much time over the last few years
helping to increase the accessibility of Flash, alongside others at
SSB BART Group, the company where I work:
Before my comments though, a question or two to anyone here that has
been able to try any of the GSN Flash-based games: What do you see
with your screen reader for a Flash object there? Choices I can
imagine are
1. Nothing: Can't tell there are Flash objects at all.
2. A Flash object but with no content or something that just says
"graphic."
3. Content and controls, like buttons, but no names, so I see "button
button button slider button edit edit button..." and can't figure out
what is what.
The answer to this will help me understand which part of the puzzle
I'm about to explain is in fact the problem here. I don't have a GSN
registration myself.
Ok, now for the puzzle:
There are several elements of Flash accessibility, and if you discount
the very iffy approach of using screen locations and something like
the admittedly innovative HotSpot Clicker to name and provide access
to them, these elements must work in tandem to provide accessibility.
I list them here as sort of a stack, meaning that if an earlier one in
this list is not done right, nothing below it can work even under the
best of conditions.
Level 1: The Flash Player. The Flash Player must be able to provide
Microsoft Active Accessibility (MSAA) support for screen readers. To
do this, it must in effect be a bridge between Flash content that runs
inside the Player and the assistive technology (such as JAWS) that run
outside it. The Flash player has provided a level of MSAA support for
years, though the specifics of how it presents content to screen
readers diverge, sometimes markedly, from the way similar content in
non-Flash environments appears in MSAA.
Level 2: Flash-based development platforms (e.g., Flex). These must
connect the Flash player's support back to the actual content running
in the Player. For example, a Flex control such as a slider must
provide Flex developers with a way to set accessibility information,
such as slider name and position, so that this information can be
carried through the Player and out to screen readers via MSAA.
Level 3: Content. Flash/Flex content must provide the actual
accessibility information about each control so that the Player has
something to tell the assistive technology. This element of the
puzzle is not up to Adobe but is rather up to the content developers -
in our case, those who write the games.
Level 4: The assistive technology. As I said before, the Player's
presentation of MSAA information is often a bit unusual. For this
reason, assistive technology has to be adapted to handle the unusual
structures presented. This can be done through scripting, through
internal screen reader modifications, or most commonly I think,
through a combination of the two. This means that this piece of the
puzzle is actually composed of a piece managed by the screen reader
developers and, sometimes, a piece managed by third-party developers
that write scripts.
So in short, we have a big stack of things to manage in order to
produce accessibility for Flash, and there are several players
responsible for different parts of the equation. Sometimes this means
that progress is more about collaboration and communication than about
technical enhancements.
I believe the following:
1. The Flash Player provides sufficient information in most cases to
make accessibility possible, but its method of presenting that
information could sometimes be better.
2. Screen readers, and I hope their third-party contractors and
assistants, have put forth significant effort and succeeded in making
screen readers handle what the Player presents. I can speak more
directly for JAWS there than for any other screen reader, but I hear
that NVDA is also succeeding with Flash these days.
3. Flash/Flex content providers are not all yet aware of what they
need to do in order to make things work for us. I have seen many
Flash pages that can be seen by screen readers but that have no usable
controls for us, because the Flash content has not been made
accessible to us by the content developers. I say again, this one is
not Adobe's fault - in fact, at least initially, I don't consider it a
"fault" at all, but a lack of awareness or know-how on the part of the
content developers. The technical details of what content developers
need to do for us would make this article much longer I'm sure, but I
can mention a few real fast:
- Avoid WMode=Transparent or Opaque, and always use Window. Otherwise
we won't even be aware that the Flash content exists.
- Provide an accessible name for every control so we can know what
they are.
- For now at least, when possible, provide text blocks outside the
Flash content (in HTML) rather than inside it, because a lot of
text that is not within an actionable control is not presented
to screen readers by the Player. (This recommendation comes
from observations I have made myself more than from professional
work I have done or from recommendations from a more reliable
source. As such, it is subject to correction.)
On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 11:09:54AM -0600, Steve Jacobson wrote:
In this case, FLASH also plays a role and therefore Adobe. While Adobe can't control how everybody imbeds a FLASH
player, they could play more of a role than they do in my opinion. Part of what I think Mike was saying, even though he
didn't put it this way, is that we also have to choose our battles. A lot of energy could be expended for minimal gain, and
we have to think about where we put our energy. Everybody has to decide that for themselves, though. ken, if this
particular problem motivates you to do something, go to it.
Also, screen reader developers generally have some communication lines with Adobe, so bringing this to their attention
is not a bad thing, but in some cases, it isn't a matter of getting screen readers to fix a problem, it is often elsewhere, and
Adobe blames the web site developers and they, if they are aware of the problem at all, will say Adobe makes it too
difficult to implement accessibility. It is hard to get our hands around a problem like this for that reason.
Best regards,
Steve Jacobson
On Fri, 22 Jan 2010 19:15:53 -0800, hmp wrote:
>This is a good standpoint. This is an important and critical
>issue, and we need to do something regarding the subject matter.
>At this point, you need to contact a support member of Freedom
>Scientific, or a support member at NVDA-Project or whatever
>screen reader support member directly and discuss these issues.
>They need to know these things right away as then we won't have
>any internet sites accessible. Also, consider speaking to a
>member of that GSN site directly, and don't give up trying to
>explain the subject matter. I'm sure if we are in constant
>persuation about this topic to them, they will fix the problem.
>I've never been to that site or played any games there although
>this topic shall concern any blind computer user at all. This
>world is full of inaccessibility. However, we can fix it! If we
>find a solution, there's always going to be a better way of
>living. and please, please for crying out loud, just don't give
>up!!! If you need any information about contacting freedom
>Sientific, call 1-800-444-4443. Tell them you want to speak with
>Jonathan Mosan or some support specialist, but please no
>emailing as they're suppose to know this thing right away, and a
>phone call is better than an email; it is like talking to the
>person more live-like. Thanks
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>From: kenlawrence124 at aol.com
>>To: nvda at freelists.org
>>Date sent: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 08:11:08 EST
>>Subject: [gui-talk] Different plan of attack
>>Hi List members. Cross posting this question to get different
>feedback on
>>this topic. I've been sending messages of complaint to GSN
>formerly Game
>>Show network saying that I'm not able to play the games on the
>site and
>>therefore don't have the same chance to win the Oodles points
>sighted people
>>can win to cash in for prizes. I can only answer the daily
>questions and
>>therefore win 50/100 oodles at a time. It would take me a
>thousand days
>>straight just to win enough oodles to cash in for some prizes and
>that is if I
>>get all questions right. I can't even enter the chat during GSN
>live and
>>the only way I can play a game connected to the channel is to
>enter the GSN
>>live games every day. They say they can't program the site they
>say since
>>flash is the standard on game sites they are obviously sticking
>with it.
>>It's funny how they say in replies thanks for being a part of the
>GSN
>>community. I sure feel like a second class citizen. AOL did the
>right thing so
>>why can't the people at GSN? even when the National federation
>of the
>>blind and gw Micro or Freedom scientific are brought to their
>attention nothing
>>changes. I will not accept the fact that I will never ever be
>able to win
>>all that money on bingo blitz, Yeah I can't even enter those
>drawings. So
>>rather than keep harping to deaf ears, the thought I had in mind
>is what
>>can we do to help make GSN accessible from the screen readers
>point of view?
>> Rather than making the site accessible, what can we do to make
>the screen
>>reader accessible to the site. One of the advantages of using
>flash is
>>that it is smaller in terms of drive space. A version of the
>Adobe flash
>>player is less than two MB, Whereas the windows media player or
>the real
>>player are close to or even over 20 MB. Flash does provide
>better quality audio
>>and video in a smaller player. So I'd like the opinion of Jaws,
>>Window-eyes, and NVDA users how we can make the screen readers
>work on the GSN site
>>and play the games there. We can lick the recent CD baby issue
>as well as
>>the Pandora issue too. of course part of my problem is dial up
>connection,
>>and I'm working on going broadband so that will be taken care of
>soon. So
>>the question is, if GSN, CD baby,or Pandora won't make the sites
>work with
>>a screen reader, what can we do to make it work the other way
>around? how
>>can we develop screen reading software to work with their sites?
>This is
>>going to take people with site to do it, but I think especially
>with an
>>Open source Screen reader like NVDA we can do it. If they won't
>make sites
>>accessible, let's try it the other way around. Many of my
>friends and the
>>members of the computer talk club of NJ are worried that the
>developers of
>>assistive technology won't be able to keep up and in a couple
>years we'll no
>>longer have any access to anything on the Internet. More and
>more sites
>>are going this direction and I think it's up to us to change it.
>What can we
>>do about this issue? I would ask that some of you take a look
>at that
>>site _www.gsn.com_ (http://www.gsn.com/) and if you are already
>registered,
>>take a look at the wonder wheel and other games especially the
>versions of
>>games that aren't generally visual like Jeopardy. There is no
>reason why
>>that isn't accessible when the show clearly is. They had blind
>players on
>>it. Family Feud too and why is the version of Deal or no Deal
>not
>>accessible. Clearly the show is. Tell me how a blind player
>couldn't go on that
>>show Huh? Let's tackle this one together. Thanks Ken.
>>I pledge to participate actively in the efforts of the national
>federation
>>of the blind to achieve equality, opportunity, and security for
>the blind;
>>to support the policies and programs of the federation; and
>abide by it's
>>constitution.
>>I pledge to participate actively in the efforts of the national
>federation
>>of the blind to achieve equality, opportunity, and security for
>the blind;
>>to support the policies and programs of the federation; and
>abide by it's
>>constitution.
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--
Doug Lee dgl at dlee.org http://www.dlee.org
SSB BART Group doug.lee at ssbbartgroup.com http://www.ssbbartgroup.com
"Determine that the thing can and shall be done, and then...find
the way." - Abraham Lincoln
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