[gui-talk] Voiceover
Chris Hallsworth
christopherh40 at googlemail.com
Sun Jul 26 15:45:25 UTC 2009
The dectalk-sounding voice is Fred. Alex is human-like and even breathes.
--
Chris Hallsworth
E-mail: christopherh40 at googlemail.com
MSN: ch9675 at hotmail.com
Skype: chrishallsworth7266
--------------------------------------------------
From: <Kenlawrence124 at aol.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 2:58 PM
To: <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
> Hi Ken here. I know the voiceover screen reader calls it's voice or at
> least the default Alix. Someone with sight says it sounds like Dectalk.
> Is
> that right? Hey wouldn't be great if the KNFB reader was worked in to an
> Iphone? Also on the subject of a Mac, I don't know if anyone mentioned
> it
> in a previous post, but we all have security issues to think about buying
> computers. We do pledge to achieve Security for the blind, Shouldn't
> that
> apply to our computers? Yeah, there are a lot of spam sending kooks out
> there Huh?
>
> I pledge to participate actively in the efforts of the national
> federation
> of the blind to achieve equality, opportunity, and security for the
> blind;
> to support the policies and programs of the federation; and abide by it's
> constitution.
>
>
> In a message dated 7/26/2009 3:01:29 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> gui-talk-request at nfbnet.org writes:
>
> Send gui-talk mailing list submissions to
> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>
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>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of gui-talk digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Voiceover (Chris G)
> 2. Re: Voiceover (Kevin Fjelsted)
> 3. Re: Voiceover (albert griffith)
> 4. Re: Voiceover (Ray Foret jr)
> 5. Re: Voiceover (Kevin Fjelsted)
> 6. Re: [Bulk] Re: Voiceover (tunecollector)
> 7. Re: [Bulk] Re: Voiceover (Kevin Fjelsted)
> 8. Re: Voiceover (James Pepper)
> 9. Re: Voiceover (albert griffith)
> 10. Voiceover (Curtis Chong)
> 11. Re: [Bulk] Voiceover (tunecollector)
> 12. Re: Voiceover (albert griffith)
> 13. Re: Voiceover (albert griffith)
> 14. Re: Voiceover (Mike Arrigo)
> 15. Re: Voiceover (Dean Martineau)
> 16. Re: Voiceover (Mike Arrigo)
> 17. Re: [Bulk] Voiceover (Dean Martineau)
> 18. Re: Voiceover (Mike Arrigo)
> 19. Re: Voiceover (Mike Arrigo)
> 20. Re: Voiceover (Mike Arrigo)
> 21. Re: Voiceover (Mike Arrigo)
> 22. Re: Voiceover (Chris G)
> 23. Re: Voiceover (Mike Arrigo)
> 24. iPhone Shopping (Kris)
> 25. Re: Voiceover (Kevin Fjelsted)
> 26. FaceBook and MySpace (Kris)
> 27. Re: Voiceover (Ray Foret jr)
> 28. Re: iPhone Shopping (Kevin Fjelsted)
> 29. Re: Voiceover (qubit)
> 30. PS VoiceOver (qubit)
> 31. Re: PS VoiceOver (Kevin Fjelsted)
> 32. Re: Voiceover (albert griffith)
> 33. Re: Voiceover (albert griffith)
> 34. Re: Voiceover (albert griffith)
> 35. Re: Voiceover (albert griffith)
> 36. Re: Voiceover (Chris G)
> 37. Re: FaceBook and MySpace (Jennifer Aberdeen)
> 38. Re: Voiceover (albert griffith)
> 39. Re: Voiceover (albert griffith)
> 40. Re: [Bulk] Re: Voiceover (tunecollector)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 13:41:31 -0400
> From: Chris G <chris at mysticplace.org>
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <20090725134130.07B3.6211D45A at mysticplace.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> http://www.blindcooltech.com
>
> There are at least 9 podcasts up there that demonstrate VoiceOver on the
> Mac.
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, 25 Jul 2009 08:26:32 -0700
> "tunecollector" <tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> This subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has anyone
> used
>> it more intensively since then? Is it ready for prime time? What are
> its
>> drawbacks.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> gui-talk:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/chris%40mysticplace.org
>
>
> --
> The home of the Mystic Place blog and podcast.
> www.mysticplace.info
> RSS: feeds.feedburner.com/mysticplacebp
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 12:49:38 -0500
> From: Kevin Fjelsted <kfjelsted at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID:
> <b6d81870907251049m129e2f35u69f30e8b3a52624b at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> VoiceOver is absolutely awesome. A superb resource for reading details
> from a community perspective is http://www.lioncourt.com.
> I thhink that the exciting thing about VoiceOver is that the stars are
> aligned for us. 1) Apple is making record profits and is applying
> resources in support of VoiceOver access across there entire product
> line including mobile devices. The fact that the NFB technology center
> chooses to publish inaccuracies and propaganda
> which is so misleading must mean that the existing companies like
> Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to rally resources to
> quash VoiceOver usage. When ever we see established organizations
> becoming defensive it is time to really dig under the covers and ask
> the reasons why. In my opinion every blind person who relies on
> accessibility technology for computers and mobile devices needs to
> look at VoiceOver as well as the other technologies and proactively
> push the envelope so that we can create momentum for transparency. My
> question is, why aren't all of the vendors emulating the approach of
> VoiceOver, which is to have built in accessibility to the device out
> of the box without charging extra? WHen I can pay $190 for a cell
> phone that has built in accessibility I find that amazing compared to
> spending money for a cell phone and then having to turn around and buy
> a 3rd party access solution that in many cases only works half baked.
> Not only do I get a cell phone for $190 but I get all the built in
> apps talking clock, calculator, maps, weather forecasting, text
> messaging, address book management, calendaring including syncing with
> other calendars. For years blind people have taken the position that
> touch screens are the enemy and that we can't use them. Yet the IPhone
> with VoiceOver is totally dependent on the touch screen. I do
> everything with the touch screen look at email, update my calendar,
> make phone calls,.... -Kevin Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 10:26 AM,
> tunecollector<tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> This subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has anyone
> used
>> it more intensively since then? ?Is it ready for prime time? ? ?What are
> its
>> drawbacks.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> gui-talk:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Kevin Fjelsted
> B Harris, Inc.
> http://www.bharrisinc.com
> kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
> Phone: 612.424.7333 EX. 301
> Direct: 612.424.7332
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 15:00:20 -0400
> From: "albert griffith" <albertgriffith at sbcglobal.net>
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
> To: "'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <006c01ca0d5a$284552d0$78cff870$@net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Hi Kevin, I'm definitely purchasing a new machine in the next couple of
> months and I'm seriously considering a Mac. I'd like to read the NFB
> articles of which you speak with all their inaccuracies but I don't know
> where to locate them. Can you tell me where to go to read them? I don't
> need an exact URL just the general area will do. thanks
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Kevin Fjelsted
> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 1:50 PM
> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>
> VoiceOver is absolutely awesome. A superb resource for reading details
> from a community perspective is http://www.lioncourt.com.
> I thhink that the exciting thing about VoiceOver is that the stars are
> aligned for us. 1) Apple is making record profits and is applying
> resources in support of VoiceOver access across there entire product
> line including mobile devices. The fact that the NFB technology center
> chooses to publish inaccuracies and propaganda
> which is so misleading must mean that the existing companies like
> Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to rally resources to
> quash VoiceOver usage. When ever we see established organizations
> becoming defensive it is time to really dig under the covers and ask
> the reasons why. In my opinion every blind person who relies on
> accessibility technology for computers and mobile devices needs to
> look at VoiceOver as well as the other technologies and proactively
> push the envelope so that we can create momentum for transparency. My
> question is, why aren't all of the vendors emulating the approach of
> VoiceOver, which is to have built in accessibility to the device out
> of the box without charging extra? WHen I can pay $190 for a cell
> phone that has built in accessibility I find that amazing compared to
> spending money for a cell phone and then having to turn around and buy
> a 3rd party access solution that in many cases only works half baked.
> Not only do I get a cell phone for $190 but I get all the built in
> apps talking clock, calculator, maps, weather forecasting, text
> messaging, address book management, calendaring including syncing with
> other calendars. For years blind people have taken the position that
> touch screens are the enemy and that we can't use them. Yet the IPhone
> with VoiceOver is totally dependent on the touch screen. I do
> everything with the touch screen look at email, update my calendar,
> make phone calls,.... -Kevin Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 10:26 AM,
> tunecollector<tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> This subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has anyone
> used
>> it more intensively since then? ?Is it ready for prime time? ? ?What are
> its
>> drawbacks.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> gui-talk:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.
> com
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Kevin Fjelsted
> B Harris, Inc.
> http://www.bharrisinc.com
> kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
> Phone: 612.424.7333 EX. 301
> Direct: 612.424.7332
>
> _______________________________________________
> gui-talk mailing list
> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> gui-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/albertgriffith%40s
> bcglobal.net
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 14:24:12 -0500
> From: "Ray Foret jr" <rforetjr at comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <2CED535603A7485C9A04B1E40F7D2F9E at OwnerPC>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Granted, Voice over is well worth serious consideration; but, Kevin,
> there's
> no need to get unpleasant about it. The NFB's perspective was written
> from
> a Windows users point of view because that's what most blind computer
> users
> are familiar with. Like it or not, this is so. I always hear Voice Over
> users say "You can't compare the Mac to Windows.". Fair enough. So, in
> that case, why not truly help us Windows users get to know Voice Over
> better
> instead of just criticizing us just because we do what it is human nature
> to
> do; compare one thing to another. I grant you that the Mac is worth
> serious
> consideration; and, If I wasn't still paying for this lap top, I would
> indeed very seriously look at Voice Over. Let me give you an example of
> how
> Voice Over users can be more helpful. In the NFB article, it is stated
> that
> when you press the space bar to check or uncheck items on a web page,
> Voice
> Over does not tell you whether an item is checked or unchecked. I
> believe
> this is true; however, there is another factor. The article then goes on
> to
> incorrectly state that there is no way without fumbling around, to
> determine
> whether an item is checked or not. As I understand it, there is a
> special
> Voice over key command which is used to check or uncheck items on web
> pages.
> When this key stroke is used, Voice over will tell you at once whether an
> item is checked or unchecked. Now, it's quite clear to me that the
> fellow
> reviewing Voice Over for the NFB did not know this fact. but, I ask you,
> why did not some voice over users help him with the trouble he was
> having?
> Why did the NFB not seek help from Voice Over users? Well, I think I can
> answer that one. He wanted to deal with Voice Over from the stand point
> of
> a strictly out of the box experience. IN other words, his logic was
> this.
> "Let me see what I can learn about Voice Over strictly from the help and
> what ever documentation I can access on my own.". Fair enough; but,
> let's
>
> think a bit. How many Windows users do you know who rely just on the
> built
> in help and what documentation they can read on their own? Well, I sure
> don't know too many myself. Most Windows users go to one another for
> help
> and we help each other. Why, therefore, did the NFB fellow not seek help
> in
> the same way from Mac users? A fair question I think. Frankly, I am
> perfectly willing to take a look at Voice over, not so much from the NFB
> stand point; nor from a Voice Over defense point of view. My look will
> be
> based a bit on both and I will be wanting to get very objective
> information.
> I don't think I can count on either the NFB or Voice Over devotees to be
> truly objective; and, therefore, the best strategy I can think of is to
> take
> the best of both and make your own decision.
>
> Sincerely,
> The Constantly BAREFOOTED Ray
>
> "Old friend, what are you looking for? After those many years abroad you
> come With images you tended Under foreign skies Far away from your own
> land"
> George Seferis
>
> Phone or Fax::
> +1 (985) 360-3614
> Cell:
> +1 (985) 791-2938
> e-mail:
> rforetjratcomcastdotnet
> Skype Name:
> barefootedray
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kevin Fjelsted" <kfjelsted at gmail.com>
> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 12:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>
>
> VoiceOver is absolutely awesome. A superb resource for reading details
> from a community perspective is http://www.lioncourt.com.
> I thhink that the exciting thing about VoiceOver is that the stars are
> aligned for us. 1) Apple is making record profits and is applying
> resources in support of VoiceOver access across there entire product
> line including mobile devices. The fact that the NFB technology center
> chooses to publish inaccuracies and propaganda
> which is so misleading must mean that the existing companies like
> Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to rally resources to
> quash VoiceOver usage. When ever we see established organizations
> becoming defensive it is time to really dig under the covers and ask
> the reasons why. In my opinion every blind person who relies on
> accessibility technology for computers and mobile devices needs to
> look at VoiceOver as well as the other technologies and proactively
> push the envelope so that we can create momentum for transparency. My
> question is, why aren't all of the vendors emulating the approach of
> VoiceOver, which is to have built in accessibility to the device out
> of the box without charging extra? WHen I can pay $190 for a cell
> phone that has built in accessibility I find that amazing compared to
> spending money for a cell phone and then having to turn around and buy
> a 3rd party access solution that in many cases only works half baked.
> Not only do I get a cell phone for $190 but I get all the built in
> apps talking clock, calculator, maps, weather forecasting, text
> messaging, address book management, calendaring including syncing with
> other calendars. For years blind people have taken the position that
> touch screens are the enemy and that we can't use them. Yet the IPhone
> with VoiceOver is totally dependent on the touch screen. I do
> everything with the touch screen look at email, update my calendar,
> make phone calls,.... -Kevin Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 10:26 AM,
> tunecollector<tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> This subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has anyone
>> used
>> it more intensively since then? Is it ready for prime time? What are its
>> drawbacks.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> gui-talk:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Kevin Fjelsted
> B Harris, Inc.
> http://www.bharrisinc.com
> kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
> Phone: 612.424.7333 EX. 301
> Direct: 612.424.7332
>
> _______________________________________________
> gui-talk mailing list
> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> gui-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/rforetjr%40comcast
> .net
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 14:55:10 -0500
> From: Kevin Fjelsted <kfjelsted at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID:
> <b6d81870907251255x12cf6e9ds28d3886bab4b8f22 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> The NFB article is located at
> http://tinyurl.com/ndplsk
> I recommend that you also read a review of that article at
> http://tinyurl.com/l2samj
>
> -Kevin
>
> On 7/25/09, albert griffith <albertgriffith at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> Hi Kevin, I'm definitely purchasing a new machine in the next couple of
>> months and I'm seriously considering a Mac. I'd like to read the NFB
>> articles of which you speak with all their inaccuracies but I don't
>> know
>> where to locate them. Can you tell me where to go to read them? I
>> don't
>> need an exact URL just the general area will do. thanks
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> On
>> Behalf Of Kevin Fjelsted
>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 1:50 PM
>> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>>
>> VoiceOver is absolutely awesome. A superb resource for reading details
>> from a community perspective is http://www.lioncourt.com.
>> I thhink that the exciting thing about VoiceOver is that the stars are
>> aligned for us. 1) Apple is making record profits and is applying
>> resources in support of VoiceOver access across there entire product
>> line including mobile devices. The fact that the NFB technology center
>> chooses to publish inaccuracies and propaganda
>> which is so misleading must mean that the existing companies like
>> Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to rally resources to
>> quash VoiceOver usage. When ever we see established organizations
>> becoming defensive it is time to really dig under the covers and ask
>> the reasons why. In my opinion every blind person who relies on
>> accessibility technology for computers and mobile devices needs to
>> look at VoiceOver as well as the other technologies and proactively
>> push the envelope so that we can create momentum for transparency. My
>> question is, why aren't all of the vendors emulating the approach of
>> VoiceOver, which is to have built in accessibility to the device out
>> of the box without charging extra? WHen I can pay $190 for a cell
>> phone that has built in accessibility I find that amazing compared to
>> spending money for a cell phone and then having to turn around and buy
>> a 3rd party access solution that in many cases only works half baked.
>> Not only do I get a cell phone for $190 but I get all the built in
>> apps talking clock, calculator, maps, weather forecasting, text
>> messaging, address book management, calendaring including syncing with
>> other calendars. For years blind people have taken the position that
>> touch screens are the enemy and that we can't use them. Yet the IPhone
>> with VoiceOver is totally dependent on the touch screen. I do
>> everything with the touch screen look at email, update my calendar,
>> make phone calls,.... -Kevin Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 10:26 AM,
>> tunecollector<tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> This subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has anyone
>> used
>>> it more intensively since then? Is it ready for prime time? What
>>> are
>> its
>>> drawbacks.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> gui-talk mailing list
>>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> gui-talk:
>>>
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.
>> com
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Kevin Fjelsted
>> B Harris, Inc.
>> http://www.bharrisinc.com
>> kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
>> Phone: 612.424.7333 EX. 301
>> Direct: 612.424.7332
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> gui-talk:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/albertgriffith%40s
>> bcglobal.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> gui-talk:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 13:19:57 -0700
> From: "tunecollector" <tunecollector at sbcglobal.net>
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] [Bulk] Re: Voiceover
> To: "'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <0EBFDABF6BC641BBBDEFDB90CF765E3B at computer>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Is there a Voiceover users list?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Kevin Fjelsted
> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 10:50 AM
> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
> Subject: [Bulk] Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>
> VoiceOver is absolutely awesome. A superb resource for reading details
> from a community perspective is http://www.lioncourt.com.
> I thhink that the exciting thing about VoiceOver is that the stars are
> aligned for us. 1) Apple is making record profits and is applying
> resources in support of VoiceOver access across there entire product
> line including mobile devices. The fact that the NFB technology center
> chooses to publish inaccuracies and propaganda
> which is so misleading must mean that the existing companies like
> Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to rally resources to
> quash VoiceOver usage. When ever we see established organizations
> becoming defensive it is time to really dig under the covers and ask
> the reasons why. In my opinion every blind person who relies on
> accessibility technology for computers and mobile devices needs to
> look at VoiceOver as well as the other technologies and proactively
> push the envelope so that we can create momentum for transparency. My
> question is, why aren't all of the vendors emulating the approach of
> VoiceOver, which is to have built in accessibility to the device out
> of the box without charging extra? WHen I can pay $190 for a cell
> phone that has built in accessibility I find that amazing compared to
> spending money for a cell phone and then having to turn around and buy
> a 3rd party access solution that in many cases only works half baked.
> Not only do I get a cell phone for $190 but I get all the built in
> apps talking clock, calculator, maps, weather forecasting, text
> messaging, address book management, calendaring including syncing with
> other calendars. For years blind people have taken the position that
> touch screens are the enemy and that we can't use them. Yet the IPhone
> with VoiceOver is totally dependent on the touch screen. I do
> everything with the touch screen look at email, update my calendar,
> make phone calls,.... -Kevin Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 10:26 AM,
> tunecollector<tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> This subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has anyone
> used
>> it more intensively since then? ?Is it ready for prime time? ? ?What are
> its
>> drawbacks.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> gui-talk:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.
> com
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Kevin Fjelsted
> B Harris, Inc.
> http://www.bharrisinc.com
> kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
> Phone: 612.424.7333 EX. 301
> Direct: 612.424.7332
>
> _______________________________________________
> gui-talk mailing list
> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> gui-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/tunecollector%40sb
> cglobal.net
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
> signature
> database 4277 (20090725) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
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> signature
> database 4277 (20090725) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
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>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 16:30:23 -0500
> From: Kevin Fjelsted <kfjelsted at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] [Bulk] Re: Voiceover
> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID:
> <b6d81870907251430s2cd7523ck3dbf8232797f362a at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> There are two excellent groups.
> For VoiceOver on the Mac join the group
> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries
> For VoiceOver on the IPhone join the group
> http://groups.google.com/group/viphone
>
> -Kevin
>
>
> On 7/25/09, tunecollector <tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> Is there a Voiceover users list?
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> On
>> Behalf Of Kevin Fjelsted
>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 10:50 AM
>> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>> Subject: [Bulk] Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>>
>> VoiceOver is absolutely awesome. A superb resource for reading details
>> from a community perspective is http://www.lioncourt.com.
>> I thhink that the exciting thing about VoiceOver is that the stars are
>> aligned for us. 1) Apple is making record profits and is applying
>> resources in support of VoiceOver access across there entire product
>> line including mobile devices. The fact that the NFB technology center
>> chooses to publish inaccuracies and propaganda
>> which is so misleading must mean that the existing companies like
>> Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to rally resources to
>> quash VoiceOver usage. When ever we see established organizations
>> becoming defensive it is time to really dig under the covers and ask
>> the reasons why. In my opinion every blind person who relies on
>> accessibility technology for computers and mobile devices needs to
>> look at VoiceOver as well as the other technologies and proactively
>> push the envelope so that we can create momentum for transparency. My
>> question is, why aren't all of the vendors emulating the approach of
>> VoiceOver, which is to have built in accessibility to the device out
>> of the box without charging extra? WHen I can pay $190 for a cell
>> phone that has built in accessibility I find that amazing compared to
>> spending money for a cell phone and then having to turn around and buy
>> a 3rd party access solution that in many cases only works half baked.
>> Not only do I get a cell phone for $190 but I get all the built in
>> apps talking clock, calculator, maps, weather forecasting, text
>> messaging, address book management, calendaring including syncing with
>> other calendars. For years blind people have taken the position that
>> touch screens are the enemy and that we can't use them. Yet the IPhone
>> with VoiceOver is totally dependent on the touch screen. I do
>> everything with the touch screen look at email, update my calendar,
>> make phone calls,.... -Kevin Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 10:26 AM,
>> tunecollector<tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> This subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has anyone
>> used
>>> it more intensively since then? Is it ready for prime time? What
>>> are
>> its
>>> drawbacks.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> gui-talk mailing list
>>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> gui-talk:
>>>
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.
>> com
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Kevin Fjelsted
>> B Harris, Inc.
>> http://www.bharrisinc.com
>> kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
>> Phone: 612.424.7333 EX. 301
>> Direct: 612.424.7332
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> gui-talk:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/tunecollector%40sb
>> cglobal.net
>>
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
> signature
>> database 4277 (20090725) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
> signature
>> database 4277 (20090725) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> gui-talk:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> --
> Kevin Fjelsted
> B Harris, Inc.
> http://www.bharrisinc.com
> kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
> Phone: 612.424.7333 EX. 301
> Direct: 612.424.7332
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 16:39:46 -0500
> From: James Pepper <b75205 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID:
> <fe5b78280907251439u26b3c28v77c0a946a618f9a6 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Here is the AFB Tech, the American Foundation for the Blind's Technology
> Center's review of Voice Over. I highly recommend you check into the AFB
> Tech Site because they test everything in their West Virginia facility.
> http://www.afb.org/afbpress/pub.asp?DocID=aw090603
>
> Just note that in the past Apple has been very vocal against the AFB
> because
> in the past you had to select text on the screen to read it and the folks
> at
> AFB tech pointed out that the blind could not see the screen to select
> the
> text.
>
> Here is a link to the braille version of the article:
>
> http://www.afb.org/afbpress/Braille.asp?DocID=aw090603&PageTitle=An+Evaluati
> on+of+VoiceOver%2C+the+Macintosh+Screen+Reader+%2D+AccessWorld%AE+%2D+Novemb
> er+2008
>
> I would recommend staying with the PC environment because most
> accessibility
> was developed on that system and especially when you are dealing with
> Microsoft Office you will find that the mac versions do not have all the
> features of the PC versions. I know that will cause a lot of chaos here
> but
> it is a problem. Microsoft is the company that is focusing on
> accessibility
> and especially on the PC, they are fed up with the way things are going
> now
> and with their new ARIA standards, I would recommend staying on the PC
> bandwagon.
>
> James Pepper
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 17:47:30 -0400
> From: "albert griffith" <albertgriffith at sbcglobal.net>
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
> To: "'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <000401ca0d71$849fc850$8ddf58f0$@net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Ray, you've nearly mirrored my point of view relative to voiceover. I'm
> going to purchase a computer by year's end so I'm reviewing many
> operating
> systems
> With a real critical eye. The screen reader developed by Apple has my
> attention for obvious reasons. Since it's built in I'll save allot of
> cash
> over time if it will perform adequately. My chief concerns are
> availability
> and the accessibility of the programs I most often use. I consider
> myself
> quite tech savvy but I'm finding many of those with experience with the
> system are real tech oriented so their need for a clean out-of-box
> experience isn't as important to them. I'm open to any comparative
> appraisals of the two screen readers. If I had to go with an operating
> system and screen reader today I'd remove voiceover from my list of
> choices
> because I believe although without much evidence that it needs a little
> seasoning. I'm predicting it will work real well on my next machine
> which
> I'll probably buy in 2013 or 14 but I'm not so sure that I'm ready to
> stop
> my evaluations. I'm also considering hooking up with Serotek's mobile
> network. It not only works well with many programs but the price is
> right.
> Any articles you or anyone else could point me too will be appreciated.
> The
> information we gather as list members will help all of us. On one level
> I'm
> frustrated with the number of choices we have but I'm also grateful for
> them.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Ray Foret jr
> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 3:24 PM
> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>
> Granted, Voice over is well worth serious consideration; but, Kevin,
> there's
>
> no need to get unpleasant about it. The NFB's perspective was written
> from
> a Windows users point of view because that's what most blind computer
> users
> are familiar with. Like it or not, this is so. I always hear Voice Over
> users say "You can't compare the Mac to Windows.". Fair enough. So, in
> that case, why not truly help us Windows users get to know Voice Over
> better
>
> instead of just criticizing us just because we do what it is human nature
> to
>
> do; compare one thing to another. I grant you that the Mac is worth
> serious
>
> consideration; and, If I wasn't still paying for this lap top, I would
> indeed very seriously look at Voice Over. Let me give you an example of
> how
>
> Voice Over users can be more helpful. In the NFB article, it is stated
> that
>
> when you press the space bar to check or uncheck items on a web page,
> Voice
> Over does not tell you whether an item is checked or unchecked. I
> believe
> this is true; however, there is another factor. The article then goes on
> to
>
> incorrectly state that there is no way without fumbling around, to
> determine
>
> whether an item is checked or not. As I understand it, there is a
> special
> Voice over key command which is used to check or uncheck items on web
> pages.
>
> When this key stroke is used, Voice over will tell you at once whether an
> item is checked or unchecked. Now, it's quite clear to me that the
> fellow
> reviewing Voice Over for the NFB did not know this fact. but, I ask you,
> why did not some voice over users help him with the trouble he was
> having?
> Why did the NFB not seek help from Voice Over users? Well, I think I can
> answer that one. He wanted to deal with Voice Over from the stand point
> of
> a strictly out of the box experience. IN other words, his logic was
> this.
> "Let me see what I can learn about Voice Over strictly from the help and
> what ever documentation I can access on my own.". Fair enough; but,
> let's
> think a bit. How many Windows users do you know who rely just on the
> built
> in help and what documentation they can read on their own? Well, I sure
> don't know too many myself. Most Windows users go to one another for
> help
> and we help each other. Why, therefore, did the NFB fellow not seek help
> in
>
> the same way from Mac users? A fair question I think. Frankly, I am
> perfectly willing to take a look at Voice over, not so much from the NFB
> stand point; nor from a Voice Over defense point of view. My look will
> be
> based a bit on both and I will be wanting to get very objective
> information.
>
> I don't think I can count on either the NFB or Voice Over devotees to be
> truly objective; and, therefore, the best strategy I can think of is to
> take
>
> the best of both and make your own decision.
>
> Sincerely,
> The Constantly BAREFOOTED Ray
>
> "Old friend, what are you looking for? After those many years abroad you
> come With images you tended Under foreign skies Far away from your own
> land"
> George Seferis
>
> Phone or Fax::
> +1 (985) 360-3614
> Cell:
> +1 (985) 791-2938
> e-mail:
> rforetjratcomcastdotnet
> Skype Name:
> barefootedray
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kevin Fjelsted" <kfjelsted at gmail.com>
> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 12:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>
>
> VoiceOver is absolutely awesome. A superb resource for reading details
> from a community perspective is http://www.lioncourt.com.
> I thhink that the exciting thing about VoiceOver is that the stars are
> aligned for us. 1) Apple is making record profits and is applying
> resources in support of VoiceOver access across there entire product
> line including mobile devices. The fact that the NFB technology center
> chooses to publish inaccuracies and propaganda
> which is so misleading must mean that the existing companies like
> Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to rally resources to
> quash VoiceOver usage. When ever we see established organizations
> becoming defensive it is time to really dig under the covers and ask
> the reasons why. In my opinion every blind person who relies on
> accessibility technology for computers and mobile devices needs to
> look at VoiceOver as well as the other technologies and proactively
> push the envelope so that we can create momentum for transparency. My
> question is, why aren't all of the vendors emulating the approach of
> VoiceOver, which is to have built in accessibility to the device out
> of the box without charging extra? WHen I can pay $190 for a cell
> phone that has built in accessibility I find that amazing compared to
> spending money for a cell phone and then having to turn around and buy
> a 3rd party access solution that in many cases only works half baked.
> Not only do I get a cell phone for $190 but I get all the built in
> apps talking clock, calculator, maps, weather forecasting, text
> messaging, address book management, calendaring including syncing with
> other calendars. For years blind people have taken the position that
> touch screens are the enemy and that we can't use them. Yet the IPhone
> with VoiceOver is totally dependent on the touch screen. I do
> everything with the touch screen look at email, update my calendar,
> make phone calls,.... -Kevin Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 10:26 AM,
> tunecollector<tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> This subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has anyone
>> used
>> it more intensively since then? Is it ready for prime time? What are its
>> drawbacks.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> gui-talk:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.
> com
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Kevin Fjelsted
> B Harris, Inc.
> http://www.bharrisinc.com
> kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
> Phone: 612.424.7333 EX. 301
> Direct: 612.424.7332
>
> _______________________________________________
> gui-talk mailing list
> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> gui-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/rforetjr%40comcast
> .net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> gui-talk mailing list
> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> gui-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/albertgriffith%40s
> bcglobal.net
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 16:55:51 -0500
> From: "Curtis Chong" <curtischong at earthlink.net>
> Subject: [gui-talk] Voiceover
> To: "'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <000001ca0d72$add1a170$0974e450$@net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> On July 25, 2009, Kevin Fjelsted wrote in relevant part:
>
> "The fact that the NFB technology center chooses to publish inaccuracies
> and
> propaganda which is so misleading must mean that the existing companies
> like
> Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to rally resources to
> quash
> VoiceOver usage."
>
> Having managed the International Braille and Technology Center for five
> years, I think I can say with some credibility that the Braille Monitor
> article which Kevin refers to was not intended to be deliberately
> inaccurate. Nor was it intended to (as he says) "quash VoiceOver usage."
>
> The article that was published in the June edition of the Braille Monitor
> was clearly written from the perspective of a community which, in the
> main,
> has strong familiarity with the Windows operating system, Windows-based
> screen access technology, and Windows conventions. Having read the
> article
> myself and reviewed some of the responses to it, I would acknowledge that
> the article can be said to contain some inaccuracies and erroneous
> conclusions. However, the perspective of the author, while not that of a
> VoiceOver user, is reflective of the majority of blind computer users
> who,
> today, are familiar with Windows. Clearly, the author of the article was
> not aware that there is a very dedicated community of blind people who
> have
> developed a high degree of understanding, competence, and sophistication
> with VoiceOver and the Macintosh. The article would have been well
> served
> if the author had been able to talk with some of these people.
>
> This may have been the case when the article was written, but I am
> confident
> that the voices of the Macintosh and VoiceOver community have been heard
> and
> are even now being consulted.
>
> Cordially,
>
> Curtis Chong
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 16:01:26 -0700
> From: "tunecollector" <tunecollector at sbcglobal.net>
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] [Bulk] Voiceover
> To: "'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <80DD6C7C917F4D73A373EE3BC4B6BC66 at computer>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Probably echoing the sentiment, I would have found the article
> uninformative
> if it had been written strictly from a Mac user's viewpoint since I have
> absolutely no familiarity with a Mac computer. Despite that, I have no
> loyalty to a PC over a Mac. I do not consider myself computer savvy and
> most likely never will be. I am looking for something for ease of use
> and
> not for maximizing what I can dan do with a computer.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Curtis Chong
> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 2:56 PM
> To: 'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'
> Subject: [Bulk] [gui-talk] Voiceover
>
> On July 25, 2009, Kevin Fjelsted wrote in relevant part:
>
> "The fact that the NFB technology center chooses to publish inaccuracies
> and
> propaganda which is so misleading must mean that the existing companies
> like
> Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to rally resources to
> quash
> VoiceOver usage."
>
> Having managed the International Braille and Technology Center for five
> years, I think I can say with some credibility that the Braille Monitor
> article which Kevin refers to was not intended to be deliberately
> inaccurate. Nor was it intended to (as he says) "quash VoiceOver usage."
>
> The article that was published in the June edition of the Braille Monitor
> was clearly written from the perspective of a community which, in the
> main,
> has strong familiarity with the Windows operating system, Windows-based
> screen access technology, and Windows conventions. Having read the
> article
> myself and reviewed some of the responses to it, I would acknowledge that
> the article can be said to contain some inaccuracies and erroneous
> conclusions. However, the perspective of the author, while not that of a
> VoiceOver user, is reflective of the majority of blind computer users
> who,
> today, are familiar with Windows. Clearly, the author of the article was
> not aware that there is a very dedicated community of blind people who
> have
> developed a high degree of understanding, competence, and sophistication
> with VoiceOver and the Macintosh. The article would have been well
> served
> if the author had been able to talk with some of these people.
>
> This may have been the case when the article was written, but I am
> confident
> that the voices of the Macintosh and VoiceOver community have been heard
> and
> are even now being consulted.
>
> Cordially,
>
> Curtis Chong
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> gui-talk mailing list
> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> gui-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/tunecollector%40sb
> cglobal.net
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
> signature
> database 4277 (20090725) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
> signature
> database 4277 (20090725) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 19:04:42 -0400
> From: "albert griffith" <albertgriffith at sbcglobal.net>
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
> To: "'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <001301ca0d7c$4c9e50b0$e5daf210$@net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Hello Curtis:
> If someone needs to access, Ms. Office, a media player to rip, burn,
> organize and play files along with managing place markers in a wide range
> of
> file types
> will the voiceover work? This person has to access the acrobat reader, an
> instant messenger and an internet browser.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Curtis Chong
> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 5:56 PM
> To: 'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'
> Subject: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>
> On July 25, 2009, Kevin Fjelsted wrote in relevant part:
>
> "The fact that the NFB technology center chooses to publish inaccuracies
> and
> propaganda which is so misleading must mean that the existing companies
> like
> Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to rally resources to
> quash
> VoiceOver usage."
>
> Having managed the International Braille and Technology Center for five
> years, I think I can say with some credibility that the Braille Monitor
> article which Kevin refers to was not intended to be deliberately
> inaccurate. Nor was it intended to (as he says) "quash VoiceOver usage."
>
> The article that was published in the June edition of the Braille Monitor
> was clearly written from the perspective of a community which, in the
> main,
> has strong familiarity with the Windows operating system, Windows-based
> screen access technology, and Windows conventions. Having read the
> article
> myself and reviewed some of the responses to it, I would acknowledge that
> the article can be said to contain some inaccuracies and erroneous
> conclusions. However, the perspective of the author, while not that of a
> VoiceOver user, is reflective of the majority of blind computer users
> who,
> today, are familiar with Windows. Clearly, the author of the article was
> not aware that there is a very dedicated community of blind people who
> have
> developed a high degree of understanding, competence, and sophistication
> with VoiceOver and the Macintosh. The article would have been well
> served
> if the author had been able to talk with some of these people.
>
> This may have been the case when the article was written, but I am
> confident
> that the voices of the Macintosh and VoiceOver community have been heard
> and
> are even now being consulted.
>
> Cordially,
>
> Curtis Chong
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> gui-talk mailing list
> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> gui-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/albertgriffith%40s
> bcglobal.net
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 19:19:50 -0400
> From: "albert griffith" <albertgriffith at sbcglobal.net>
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
> To: "'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <001a01ca0d7e$6933e710$3b9bb530$@net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Hi Ray, I've yet to read the NFB article but I plan to soon. We'll
> benefit
> from all the access points it should illuminate. Do you know if Apple is
> offering their screen reader as a demo anywhere?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Ray Foret jr
> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 3:24 PM
> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>
> Granted, Voice over is well worth serious consideration; but, Kevin,
> there's
>
> no need to get unpleasant about it. The NFB's perspective was written
> from
> a Windows users point of view because that's what most blind computer
> users
> are familiar with. Like it or not, this is so. I always hear Voice Over
> users say "You can't compare the Mac to Windows.". Fair enough. So, in
> that case, why not truly help us Windows users get to know Voice Over
> better
>
> instead of just criticizing us just because we do what it is human nature
> to
>
> do; compare one thing to another. I grant you that the Mac is worth
> serious
>
> consideration; and, If I wasn't still paying for this lap top, I would
> indeed very seriously look at Voice Over. Let me give you an example of
> how
>
> Voice Over users can be more helpful. In the NFB article, it is stated
> that
>
> when you press the space bar to check or uncheck items on a web page,
> Voice
> Over does not tell you whether an item is checked or unchecked. I
> believe
> this is true; however, there is another factor. The article then goes on
> to
>
> incorrectly state that there is no way without fumbling around, to
> determine
>
> whether an item is checked or not. As I understand it, there is a
> special
> Voice over key command which is used to check or uncheck items on web
> pages.
>
> When this key stroke is used, Voice over will tell you at once whether an
> item is checked or unchecked. Now, it's quite clear to me that the
> fellow
> reviewing Voice Over for the NFB did not know this fact. but, I ask you,
> why did not some voice over users help him with the trouble he was
> having?
> Why did the NFB not seek help from Voice Over users? Well, I think I can
> answer that one. He wanted to deal with Voice Over from the stand point
> of
> a strictly out of the box experience. IN other words, his logic was
> this.
> "Let me see what I can learn about Voice Over strictly from the help and
> what ever documentation I can access on my own.". Fair enough; but,
> let's
> think a bit. How many Windows users do you know who rely just on the
> built
> in help and what documentation they can read on their own? Well, I sure
> don't know too many myself. Most Windows users go to one another for
> help
> and we help each other. Why, therefore, did the NFB fellow not seek help
> in
>
> the same way from Mac users? A fair question I think. Frankly, I am
> perfectly willing to take a look at Voice over, not so much from the NFB
> stand point; nor from a Voice Over defense point of view. My look will
> be
> based a bit on both and I will be wanting to get very objective
> information.
>
> I don't think I can count on either the NFB or Voice Over devotees to be
> truly objective; and, therefore, the best strategy I can think of is to
> take
>
> the best of both and make your own decision.
>
> Sincerely,
> The Constantly BAREFOOTED Ray
>
> "Old friend, what are you looking for? After those many years abroad you
> come With images you tended Under foreign skies Far away from your own
> land"
> George Seferis
>
> Phone or Fax::
> +1 (985) 360-3614
> Cell:
> +1 (985) 791-2938
> e-mail:
> rforetjratcomcastdotnet
> Skype Name:
> barefootedray
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kevin Fjelsted" <kfjelsted at gmail.com>
> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 12:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>
>
> VoiceOver is absolutely awesome. A superb resource for reading details
> from a community perspective is http://www.lioncourt.com.
> I thhink that the exciting thing about VoiceOver is that the stars are
> aligned for us. 1) Apple is making record profits and is applying
> resources in support of VoiceOver access across there entire product
> line including mobile devices. The fact that the NFB technology center
> chooses to publish inaccuracies and propaganda
> which is so misleading must mean that the existing companies like
> Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to rally resources to
> quash VoiceOver usage. When ever we see established organizations
> becoming defensive it is time to really dig under the covers and ask
> the reasons why. In my opinion every blind person who relies on
> accessibility technology for computers and mobile devices needs to
> look at VoiceOver as well as the other technologies and proactively
> push the envelope so that we can create momentum for transparency. My
> question is, why aren't all of the vendors emulating the approach of
> VoiceOver, which is to have built in accessibility to the device out
> of the box without charging extra? WHen I can pay $190 for a cell
> phone that has built in accessibility I find that amazing compared to
> spending money for a cell phone and then having to turn around and buy
> a 3rd party access solution that in many cases only works half baked.
> Not only do I get a cell phone for $190 but I get all the built in
> apps talking clock, calculator, maps, weather forecasting, text
> messaging, address book management, calendaring including syncing with
> other calendars. For years blind people have taken the position that
> touch screens are the enemy and that we can't use them. Yet the IPhone
> with VoiceOver is totally dependent on the touch screen. I do
> everything with the touch screen look at email, update my calendar,
> make phone calls,.... -Kevin Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 10:26 AM,
> tunecollector<tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> This subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has anyone
>> used
>> it more intensively since then? Is it ready for prime time? What are its
>> drawbacks.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> gui-talk:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.
> com
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Kevin Fjelsted
> B Harris, Inc.
> http://www.bharrisinc.com
> kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
> Phone: 612.424.7333 EX. 301
> Direct: 612.424.7332
>
> _______________________________________________
> gui-talk mailing list
> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> gui-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/rforetjr%40comcast
> .net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> gui-talk mailing list
> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> gui-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/albertgriffith%40s
> bcglobal.net
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 14
> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 18:28:18 -0500
> From: Mike Arrigo <n0oxy at charter.net>
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <3B43A41E-B8A2-4A6C-B42F-206F766AED1A at charter.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>
> Hi, it's definitely ready for prime time, and is used by many blind
> users, I'm using it as I type this message. As far as advantages and
> disadvantages, the main advantage is that it is built in to the
> ooperating system, as a blind person, you pay no more than anyone else
> for accessibility. There are of course differences with the mac
> compared to windows, so there is a bit of a learning curve at first,
> the only other possible disadvantage I could see for some people is
> that on web pages, there is no table navigation mode. I don't see this
> as a big thing, since I never use this even in windows. The macintosh
> has become my primary computer, and I use it far more than windows. I
> would put the functionality of voice over against the windows screen
> readers any day, you can do just as much I think.
> On Jul 25, 2009, at 10:26 AM, tunecollector wrote:
>
>> This subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has
>> anyone used
>> it more intensively since then? Is it ready for prime time? What
>> are its
>> drawbacks.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> for gui-talk:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/n0oxy%40charter.net
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 15
> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 16:32:25 -0700
> From: "Dean Martineau" <dean at topdotenterprises.com>
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
> To: "'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <026301ca0d80$2cbb0730$86311590$@com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> The kinds of questions Albert asks are the sort of questions the
> Federation
> staff should have taken on objectivbely, but didn't, and I'll be
> surprised
> if they ever do, because they'll have to admit they actually erred. The
> choice of Mac vs. Windows, and trhen Voice Over vs. any of several
> windows
> screen readers, gets down to learning style, economics,and the functions
> you
> want to perform with the computer. As I understand it, MS Office is not
> accessible but there are alternatives which can work in some situations.
> Anything media-related will be at least as good with the Mac and will
> probably be supported by Voice Over. One advantage of Voice Over and the
> Mac is that one needs to learn many fewer keystrokes. One does things,
> apparently effectively, in much more the way a sighted computer user will
> do
> them. For some learners, this is clearly an advantage. The point is
> that
> somebody who knows both systems well, and probably who likes them both,
> should be conducting the analysis. Such people do exist, and if they
> don't,
> it would be a great function of that Baltimore Center to seriously
> acquire
> the skill.
>
>
> Dean
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of albert griffith
> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 4:05 PM
> To: 'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>
> Hello Curtis:
> If someone needs to access, Ms. Office, a media player to rip, burn,
> organize and play files along with managing place markers in a wide range
> of
> file types
> will the voiceover work? This person has to access the acrobat reader, an
> instant messenger and an internet browser.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Curtis Chong
> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 5:56 PM
> To: 'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'
> Subject: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>
> On July 25, 2009, Kevin Fjelsted wrote in relevant part:
>
> "The fact that the NFB technology center chooses to publish inaccuracies
> and
> propaganda which is so misleading must mean that the existing companies
> like
> Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to rally resources to
> quash
> VoiceOver usage."
>
> Having managed the International Braille and Technology Center for five
> years, I think I can say with some credibility that the Braille Monitor
> article which Kevin refers to was not intended to be deliberately
> inaccurate. Nor was it intended to (as he says) "quash VoiceOver usage."
>
> The article that was published in the June edition of the Braille Monitor
> was clearly written from the perspective of a community which, in the
> main,
> has strong familiarity with the Windows operating system, Windows-based
> screen access technology, and Windows conventions. Having read the
> article
> myself and reviewed some of the responses to it, I would acknowledge that
> the article can be said to contain some inaccuracies and erroneous
> conclusions. However, the perspective of the author, while not that of a
> VoiceOver user, is reflective of the majority of blind computer users
> who,
> today, are familiar with Windows. Clearly, the author of the article was
> not aware that there is a very dedicated community of blind people who
> have
> developed a high degree of understanding, competence, and sophistication
> with VoiceOver and the Macintosh. The article would have been well
> served
> if the author had been able to talk with some of these people.
>
> This may have been the case when the article was written, but I am
> confident
> that the voices of the Macintosh and VoiceOver community have been heard
> and
> are even now being consulted.
>
> Cordially,
>
> Curtis Chong
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> gui-talk mailing list
> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> gui-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/albertgriffith%40s
> bcglobal.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> gui-talk mailing list
> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> gui-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/dean%40topdotenter
> prises.com
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 16
> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 18:33:51 -0500
> From: Mike Arrigo <n0oxy at charter.net>
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <16D134DF-761E-42C3-AC2F-AA2F1E6AA737 at charter.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>
> Well said Kevin. That article in the braille monitor was complete
> rubbish. I understand if someone decides it's not for them, that's
> their choice. But that article was simply incorrect, saying in many
> cases that something cannot be done when in fact it can. I've also
> done a complete pod cast on this article, demonstrating the things
> which supposedly can't be done.
> On Jul 25, 2009, at 12:49 PM, Kevin Fjelsted wrote:
>
>> VoiceOver is absolutely awesome. A superb resource for reading details
>> from a community perspective is http://www.lioncourt.com.
>> I thhink that the exciting thing about VoiceOver is that the stars are
>> aligned for us. 1) Apple is making record profits and is applying
>> resources in support of VoiceOver access across there entire product
>> line including mobile devices. The fact that the NFB technology center
>> chooses to publish inaccuracies and propaganda
>> which is so misleading must mean that the existing companies like
>> Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to rally resources to
>> quash VoiceOver usage. When ever we see established organizations
>> becoming defensive it is time to really dig under the covers and ask
>> the reasons why. In my opinion every blind person who relies on
>> accessibility technology for computers and mobile devices needs to
>> look at VoiceOver as well as the other technologies and proactively
>> push the envelope so that we can create momentum for transparency. My
>> question is, why aren't all of the vendors emulating the approach of
>> VoiceOver, which is to have built in accessibility to the device out
>> of the box without charging extra? WHen I can pay $190 for a cell
>> phone that has built in accessibility I find that amazing compared to
>> spending money for a cell phone and then having to turn around and buy
>> a 3rd party access solution that in many cases only works half baked.
>> Not only do I get a cell phone for $190 but I get all the built in
>> apps talking clock, calculator, maps, weather forecasting, text
>> messaging, address book management, calendaring including syncing with
>> other calendars. For years blind people have taken the position that
>> touch screens are the enemy and that we can't use them. Yet the IPhone
>> with VoiceOver is totally dependent on the touch screen. I do
>> everything with the touch screen look at email, update my calendar,
>> make phone calls,.... -Kevin Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 10:26 AM,
>> tunecollector<tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> This subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has
>>> anyone used
>>> it more intensively since then? Is it ready for prime time?
>>> What are its
>>> drawbacks.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> gui-talk mailing list
>>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>> for gui-talk:
>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Kevin Fjelsted
>> B Harris, Inc.
>> http://www.bharrisinc.com
>> kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
>> Phone: 612.424.7333 EX. 301
>> Direct: 612.424.7332
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> for gui-talk:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/n0oxy%40charter.net
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 17
> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 16:35:15 -0700
> From: "Dean Martineau" <dean at topdotenterprises.com>
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] [Bulk] Voiceover
> To: "'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <026401ca0d80$922b32c0$b6819840$@com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> As I mentioned elsewhere, the whole premise of that article is frlawed.
> Just because most blind users use Windows doesn't mean they're good at it
> or
> that they like it. The article should have taken that fact into account,
> but discussed different scenarios in which the Mac and Voice Over might
> or
> might not be a good option for somebody.
>
> Dean
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of tunecollector
> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 4:01 PM
> To: 'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] [Bulk] Voiceover
>
> Probably echoing the sentiment, I would have found the article
> uninformative
> if it had been written strictly from a Mac user's viewpoint since I have
> absolutely no familiarity with a Mac computer. Despite that, I have no
> loyalty to a PC over a Mac. I do not consider myself computer savvy and
> most likely never will be. I am looking for something for ease of use
> and
> not for maximizing what I can dan do with a computer.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Curtis Chong
> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 2:56 PM
> To: 'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'
> Subject: [Bulk] [gui-talk] Voiceover
>
> On July 25, 2009, Kevin Fjelsted wrote in relevant part:
>
> "The fact that the NFB technology center chooses to publish inaccuracies
> and
> propaganda which is so misleading must mean that the existing companies
> like
> Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to rally resources to
> quash
> VoiceOver usage."
>
> Having managed the International Braille and Technology Center for five
> years, I think I can say with some credibility that the Braille Monitor
> article which Kevin refers to was not intended to be deliberately
> inaccurate. Nor was it intended to (as he says) "quash VoiceOver usage."
>
> The article that was published in the June edition of the Braille Monitor
> was clearly written from the perspective of a community which, in the
> main,
> has strong familiarity with the Windows operating system, Windows-based
> screen access technology, and Windows conventions. Having read the
> article
> myself and reviewed some of the responses to it, I would acknowledge that
> the article can be said to contain some inaccuracies and erroneous
> conclusions. However, the perspective of the author, while not that of a
> VoiceOver user, is reflective of the majority of blind computer users
> who,
> today, are familiar with Windows. Clearly, the author of the article was
> not aware that there is a very dedicated community of blind people who
> have
> developed a high degree of understanding, competence, and sophistication
> with VoiceOver and the Macintosh. The article would have been well
> served
> if the author had been able to talk with some of these people.
>
> This may have been the case when the article was written, but I am
> confident
> that the voices of the Macintosh and VoiceOver community have been heard
> and
> are even now being consulted.
>
> Cordially,
>
> Curtis Chong
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> gui-talk mailing list
> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> gui-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/tunecollector%40sb
> cglobal.net
>
>
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> database 4277 (20090725) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
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> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
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> _______________________________________________
> gui-talk mailing list
> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> gui-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/dean%40topdotenter
> prises.com
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 18
> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 18:36:52 -0500
> From: Mike Arrigo <n0oxy at charter.net>
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <C25DBAF3-61CC-4E7C-ACD2-5C6673024568 at charter.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>
> The article is in the June braille monitor, certainly you can read it
> if your curious, but the information in it is totally wrong. That's
> great that you're considering a mac, I absolutely love mine, I think
> you would be very happy with it.
> On Jul 25, 2009, at 2:00 PM, albert griffith wrote:
>
>> Hi Kevin, I'm definitely purchasing a new machine in the next couple
>> of
>> months and I'm seriously considering a Mac. I'd like to read the NFB
>> articles of which you speak with all their inaccuracies but I don't
>> know
>> where to locate them. Can you tell me where to go to read them? I
>> don't
>> need an exact URL just the general area will do. thanks
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-
>> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Kevin Fjelsted
>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 1:50 PM
>> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>>
>> VoiceOver is absolutely awesome. A superb resource for reading details
>> from a community perspective is http://www.lioncourt.com.
>> I thhink that the exciting thing about VoiceOver is that the stars are
>> aligned for us. 1) Apple is making record profits and is applying
>> resources in support of VoiceOver access across there entire product
>> line including mobile devices. The fact that the NFB technology center
>> chooses to publish inaccuracies and propaganda
>> which is so misleading must mean that the existing companies like
>> Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to rally resources to
>> quash VoiceOver usage. When ever we see established organizations
>> becoming defensive it is time to really dig under the covers and ask
>> the reasons why. In my opinion every blind person who relies on
>> accessibility technology for computers and mobile devices needs to
>> look at VoiceOver as well as the other technologies and proactively
>> push the envelope so that we can create momentum for transparency. My
>> question is, why aren't all of the vendors emulating the approach of
>> VoiceOver, which is to have built in accessibility to the device out
>> of the box without charging extra? WHen I can pay $190 for a cell
>> phone that has built in accessibility I find that amazing compared to
>> spending money for a cell phone and then having to turn around and buy
>> a 3rd party access solution that in many cases only works half baked.
>> Not only do I get a cell phone for $190 but I get all the built in
>> apps talking clock, calculator, maps, weather forecasting, text
>> messaging, address book management, calendaring including syncing with
>> other calendars. For years blind people have taken the position that
>> touch screens are the enemy and that we can't use them. Yet the IPhone
>> with VoiceOver is totally dependent on the touch screen. I do
>> everything with the touch screen look at email, update my calendar,
>> make phone calls,.... -Kevin Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 10:26 AM,
>> tunecollector<tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>>> This subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has
>>> anyone
>> used
>>> it more intensively since then? Is it ready for prime time?
>>> What are
>> its
>>> drawbacks.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> gui-talk mailing list
>>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> gui-talk:
>>>
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail
>> .
>> com
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Kevin Fjelsted
>> B Harris, Inc.
>> http://www.bharrisinc.com
>> kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
>> Phone: 612.424.7333 EX. 301
>> Direct: 612.424.7332
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> gui-talk:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/albertgriffith%40s
>> bcglobal.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> for gui-talk:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/n0oxy%40charter.net
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 19
> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 18:40:23 -0500
> From: Mike Arrigo <n0oxy at charter.net>
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <AD4A998E-520B-4F10-A7E6-3E6C2350F51B at charter.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>
> I have also done 9 macintosh pod casts on blindcooltech.com, and pod
> cast number 8 is dedicated to demonstrating how wrong this article is.
> It's one thing to say the article is wrong, but demonstrating it
> leaves no doubt.
> On Jul 25, 2009, at 2:55 PM, Kevin Fjelsted wrote:
>
>> The NFB article is located at
>> http://tinyurl.com/ndplsk
>> I recommend that you also read a review of that article at
>> http://tinyurl.com/l2samj
>>
>> -Kevin
>>
>> On 7/25/09, albert griffith <albertgriffith at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> Hi Kevin, I'm definitely purchasing a new machine in the next
>>> couple of
>>> months and I'm seriously considering a Mac. I'd like to read the NFB
>>> articles of which you speak with all their inaccuracies but I don't
>>> know
>>> where to locate them. Can you tell me where to go to read them? I
>>> don't
>>> need an exact URL just the general area will do. thanks
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-
>>> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Kevin Fjelsted
>>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 1:50 PM
>>> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>>>
>>> VoiceOver is absolutely awesome. A superb resource for reading
>>> details
>>> from a community perspective is http://www.lioncourt.com.
>>> I thhink that the exciting thing about VoiceOver is that the stars
>>> are
>>> aligned for us. 1) Apple is making record profits and is applying
>>> resources in support of VoiceOver access across there entire product
>>> line including mobile devices. The fact that the NFB technology
>>> center
>>> chooses to publish inaccuracies and propaganda
>>> which is so misleading must mean that the existing companies like
>>> Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to rally resources
>>> to
>>> quash VoiceOver usage. When ever we see established organizations
>>> becoming defensive it is time to really dig under the covers and ask
>>> the reasons why. In my opinion every blind person who relies on
>>> accessibility technology for computers and mobile devices needs to
>>> look at VoiceOver as well as the other technologies and proactively
>>> push the envelope so that we can create momentum for transparency. My
>>> question is, why aren't all of the vendors emulating the approach
>>> of
>>> VoiceOver, which is to have built in accessibility to the device out
>>> of the box without charging extra? WHen I can pay $190 for a cell
>>> phone that has built in accessibility I find that amazing compared to
>>> spending money for a cell phone and then having to turn around and
>>> buy
>>> a 3rd party access solution that in many cases only works half baked.
>>> Not only do I get a cell phone for $190 but I get all the built in
>>> apps talking clock, calculator, maps, weather forecasting, text
>>> messaging, address book management, calendaring including syncing
>>> with
>>> other calendars. For years blind people have taken the position that
>>> touch screens are the enemy and that we can't use them. Yet the
>>> IPhone
>>> with VoiceOver is totally dependent on the touch screen. I do
>>> everything with the touch screen look at email, update my calendar,
>>> make phone calls,.... -Kevin Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 10:26 AM,
>>> tunecollector<tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>> This subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has
>>>> anyone
>>> used
>>>> it more intensively since then? Is it ready for prime time?
>>>> What are
>>> its
>>>> drawbacks.
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> gui-talk mailing list
>>>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>> for
>>> gui-talk:
>>>>
>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail
>>> .
>>> com
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Kevin Fjelsted
>>> B Harris, Inc.
>>> http://www.bharrisinc.com
>>> kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
>>> Phone: 612.424.7333 EX. 301
>>> Direct: 612.424.7332
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> gui-talk mailing list
>>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> gui-talk:
>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/albertgriffith%40s
>>> bcglobal.net
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> gui-talk mailing list
>>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> gui-talk:
>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> for gui-talk:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/n0oxy%40charter.net
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 20
> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 18:48:16 -0500
> From: Mike Arrigo <n0oxy at charter.net>
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <838947D6-32EE-403A-BC4E-400ADBA413B8 at charter.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>
> That was the big mistake of this article, the concept seemed to be,
> windows does it this way, and if the mac does it differently, it's a
> problem. There are several similarities between the mac and windows,
> but expecting the mac to work the exact same way is a recipe for
> frustration. In my pod casts on blindcooltech, I try my best to make
> comparisons when they're appropriate, but also remind the listener
> that it's not windows, and therefore will not behave the same.
> On Jul 25, 2009, at 2:24 PM, Ray Foret jr wrote:
>
>> Granted, Voice over is well worth serious consideration; but, Kevin,
>> there's
>> no need to get unpleasant about it. The NFB's perspective was
>> written from
>> a Windows users point of view because that's what most blind
>> computer users
>> are familiar with. Like it or not, this is so. I always hear Voice
>> Over
>> users say "You can't compare the Mac to Windows.". Fair enough.
>> So, in
>> that case, why not truly help us Windows users get to know Voice
>> Over better
>> instead of just criticizing us just because we do what it is human
>> nature to
>> do; compare one thing to another. I grant you that the Mac is worth
>> serious
>> consideration; and, If I wasn't still paying for this lap top, I would
>> indeed very seriously look at Voice Over. Let me give you an
>> example of how
>> Voice Over users can be more helpful. In the NFB article, it is
>> stated that
>> when you press the space bar to check or uncheck items on a web
>> page, Voice
>> Over does not tell you whether an item is checked or unchecked. I
>> believe
>> this is true; however, there is another factor. The article then
>> goes on to
>> incorrectly state that there is no way without fumbling around, to
>> determine
>> whether an item is checked or not. As I understand it, there is a
>> special
>> Voice over key command which is used to check or uncheck items on
>> web pages.
>> When this key stroke is used, Voice over will tell you at once
>> whether an
>> item is checked or unchecked. Now, it's quite clear to me that the
>> fellow
>> reviewing Voice Over for the NFB did not know this fact. but, I ask
>> you,
>> why did not some voice over users help him with the trouble he was
>> having?
>> Why did the NFB not seek help from Voice Over users? Well, I think
>> I can
>> answer that one. He wanted to deal with Voice Over from the stand
>> point of
>> a strictly out of the box experience. IN other words, his logic was
>> this.
>> "Let me see what I can learn about Voice Over strictly from the help
>> and
>> what ever documentation I can access on my own.". Fair enough; but,
>> let's
>> think a bit. How many Windows users do you know who rely just on
>> the built
>> in help and what documentation they can read on their own? Well, I
>> sure
>> don't know too many myself. Most Windows users go to one another
>> for help
>> and we help each other. Why, therefore, did the NFB fellow not seek
>> help in
>> the same way from Mac users? A fair question I think. Frankly, I am
>> perfectly willing to take a look at Voice over, not so much from the
>> NFB
>> stand point; nor from a Voice Over defense point of view. My look
>> will be
>> based a bit on both and I will be wanting to get very objective
>> information.
>> I don't think I can count on either the NFB or Voice Over devotees
>> to be
>> truly objective; and, therefore, the best strategy I can think of is
>> to take
>> the best of both and make your own decision.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> The Constantly BAREFOOTED Ray
>>
>> "Old friend, what are you looking for? After those many years
>> abroad you
>> come With images you tended Under foreign skies Far away from your
>> own land"
>> George Seferis
>>
>> Phone or Fax::
>> +1 (985) 360-3614
>> Cell:
>> +1 (985) 791-2938
>> e-mail:
>> rforetjratcomcastdotnet
>> Skype Name:
>> barefootedray
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Kevin Fjelsted" <kfjelsted at gmail.com>
>> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 12:49 PM
>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>>
>>
>> VoiceOver is absolutely awesome. A superb resource for reading details
>> from a community perspective is http://www.lioncourt.com.
>> I thhink that the exciting thing about VoiceOver is that the stars are
>> aligned for us. 1) Apple is making record profits and is applying
>> resources in support of VoiceOver access across there entire product
>> line including mobile devices. The fact that the NFB technology center
>> chooses to publish inaccuracies and propaganda
>> which is so misleading must mean that the existing companies like
>> Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to rally resources to
>> quash VoiceOver usage. When ever we see established organizations
>> becoming defensive it is time to really dig under the covers and ask
>> the reasons why. In my opinion every blind person who relies on
>> accessibility technology for computers and mobile devices needs to
>> look at VoiceOver as well as the other technologies and proactively
>> push the envelope so that we can create momentum for transparency. My
>> question is, why aren't all of the vendors emulating the approach of
>> VoiceOver, which is to have built in accessibility to the device out
>> of the box without charging extra? WHen I can pay $190 for a cell
>> phone that has built in accessibility I find that amazing compared to
>> spending money for a cell phone and then having to turn around and buy
>> a 3rd party access solution that in many cases only works half baked.
>> Not only do I get a cell phone for $190 but I get all the built in
>> apps talking clock, calculator, maps, weather forecasting, text
>> messaging, address book management, calendaring including syncing with
>> other calendars. For years blind people have taken the position that
>> touch screens are the enemy and that we can't use them. Yet the IPhone
>> with VoiceOver is totally dependent on the touch screen. I do
>> everything with the touch screen look at email, update my calendar,
>> make phone calls,.... -Kevin Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 10:26 AM,
>> tunecollector<tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> This subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has
>>> anyone
>>> used
>>> it more intensively since then? Is it ready for prime time? What
>>> are its
>>> drawbacks.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> gui-talk mailing list
>>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> gui-talk:
>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Kevin Fjelsted
>> B Harris, Inc.
>> http://www.bharrisinc.com
>> kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
>> Phone: 612.424.7333 EX. 301
>> Direct: 612.424.7332
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> gui-talk:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/rforetjr%40comcast.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> for gui-talk:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/n0oxy%40charter.net
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 21
> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 18:55:52 -0500
> From: Mike Arrigo <n0oxy at charter.net>
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <276AF8B0-59E1-4456-8883-FAE646FD12FC at charter.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>
> Hi. By the time you are ready to get your computer, mac o s 10.6 will
> probably be out, there are many improvements to voice over in that
> release. Am I saying that voice over is perfect? Not at all, there is
> always room for improvement. I'd be curious in what way you think
> voice over needs to be seasoned. You may want to check out my pod
> casts on blind cool tech, many people have found them helpful. On the
> windows side of things, I think serotek offers a great product, and
> have suggested it to many people who choose to stay with windows.
> On Jul 25, 2009, at 4:47 PM, albert griffith wrote:
>
>> Ray, you've nearly mirrored my point of view relative to voiceover.
>> I'm
>> going to purchase a computer by year's end so I'm reviewing many
>> operating
>> systems
>> With a real critical eye. The screen reader developed by Apple has my
>> attention for obvious reasons. Since it's built in I'll save allot
>> of cash
>> over time if it will perform adequately. My chief concerns are
>> availability
>> and the accessibility of the programs I most often use. I consider
>> myself
>> quite tech savvy but I'm finding many of those with experience with
>> the
>> system are real tech oriented so their need for a clean out-of-box
>> experience isn't as important to them. I'm open to any comparative
>> appraisals of the two screen readers. If I had to go with an
>> operating
>> system and screen reader today I'd remove voiceover from my list of
>> choices
>> because I believe although without much evidence that it needs a
>> little
>> seasoning. I'm predicting it will work real well on my next machine
>> which
>> I'll probably buy in 2013 or 14 but I'm not so sure that I'm ready
>> to stop
>> my evaluations. I'm also considering hooking up with Serotek's mobile
>> network. It not only works well with many programs but the price is
>> right.
>> Any articles you or anyone else could point me too will be
>> appreciated. The
>> information we gather as list members will help all of us. On one
>> level I'm
>> frustrated with the number of choices we have but I'm also grateful
>> for
>> them.
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-
>> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Ray Foret jr
>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 3:24 PM
>> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>>
>> Granted, Voice over is well worth serious consideration; but, Kevin,
>> there's
>>
>> no need to get unpleasant about it. The NFB's perspective was
>> written from
>> a Windows users point of view because that's what most blind
>> computer users
>> are familiar with. Like it or not, this is so. I always hear Voice
>> Over
>> users say "You can't compare the Mac to Windows.". Fair enough.
>> So, in
>> that case, why not truly help us Windows users get to know Voice
>> Over better
>>
>> instead of just criticizing us just because we do what it is human
>> nature to
>>
>> do; compare one thing to another. I grant you that the Mac is worth
>> serious
>>
>> consideration; and, If I wasn't still paying for this lap top, I would
>> indeed very seriously look at Voice Over. Let me give you an
>> example of how
>>
>> Voice Over users can be more helpful. In the NFB article, it is
>> stated that
>>
>> when you press the space bar to check or uncheck items on a web
>> page, Voice
>> Over does not tell you whether an item is checked or unchecked. I
>> believe
>> this is true; however, there is another factor. The article then
>> goes on to
>>
>> incorrectly state that there is no way without fumbling around, to
>> determine
>>
>> whether an item is checked or not. As I understand it, there is a
>> special
>> Voice over key command which is used to check or uncheck items on
>> web pages.
>>
>> When this key stroke is used, Voice over will tell you at once
>> whether an
>> item is checked or unchecked. Now, it's quite clear to me that the
>> fellow
>> reviewing Voice Over for the NFB did not know this fact. but, I ask
>> you,
>> why did not some voice over users help him with the trouble he was
>> having?
>> Why did the NFB not seek help from Voice Over users? Well, I think
>> I can
>> answer that one. He wanted to deal with Voice Over from the stand
>> point of
>> a strictly out of the box experience. IN other words, his logic was
>> this.
>> "Let me see what I can learn about Voice Over strictly from the help
>> and
>> what ever documentation I can access on my own.". Fair enough; but,
>> let's
>> think a bit. How many Windows users do you know who rely just on
>> the built
>> in help and what documentation they can read on their own?& Well, I
>> sure
>> don't know too many myself. Most Windows users go to one another
>> for help
>> and we help each other. Why, therefore, did the NFB fellow not seek
>> help in
>>
>> the same way from Mac users? A fair question I think. Frankly, I am
>> perfectly willing to take a look at Voice over, not so much from the
>> NFB
>> stand point; nor from a Voice Over defense point of view. My look
>> will be
>> based a bit on both and I will be wanting to get very objective
>> information.
>>
>> I don't think I can count on either the NFB or Voice Over devotees
>> to be
>> truly objective; and, therefore, the best strategy I can think of is
>> to take
>>
>> the best of both and make your own decision.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> The Constantly BAREFOOTED Ray
>>
>> "Old friend, what are you looking for? After those many years
>> abroad you
>> come With images you tended Under foreign skies Far away from your
>> own land"
>> George Seferis
>>
>> Phone or Fax::
>> +1 (985) 360-3614
>> Cell:
>> +1 (985) 791-2938
>> e-mail:
>> rforetjratcomcastdotnet
>> Skype Name:
>> barefootedray
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Kevin Fjelsted" <kfjelsted at gmail.com>
>> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 12:49 PM
>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>>
>>
>> VoiceOver is absolutely awesome. A superb resource for reading details
>> from a community perspective is http://www.lioncourt.com.
>> I thhink that the exciting thing about VoiceOver is that the stars are
>> aligned for us. 1) Apple is making record profits and is applying
>> resources in support of VoiceOver access across there entire product
>> line including mobile devices. The fact that the NFB technology center
>> chooses to publish inaccuracies and propaganda
>> which is so misleading must mean that the existing companies like
>> Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to rally resources to
>> quash VoiceOver usage. When ever we see established organizations
>> becoming defensive it is time to really dig under the covers and ask
>> the reasons why. In my opinion every blind person who relies on
>> accessibility technology for computers and mobile devices needs to
>> look at VoiceOver as well as the other technologies and proactively
>> push the envelope so that we can create momentum for transparency. My
>> question is, why aren't all of the vendors emulating the approach of
>> VoiceOver, which is to have built in accessibility to the device out
>> of the box without charging extra? WHen I can pay $190 for a cell
>> phone that has built in accessibility I find that amazing compared to
>
>> spending money for a cell phone and then having to turn around and buy
>> a 3rd party access solution that in many cases only works half baked.
>> Not only do I get a cell phone for $190 but I get all the built in
>> apps talking clock, calculator, maps, weather forecasting, text
>> messaging, address book management, calendaring including syncing with
>> other calendars. For years blind people have taken the position that
>> touch screens are the enemy and that we can't use them. Yet the IPhone
>> with VoiceOver is totally dependent on the touch screen. I do
>> everything with the touch screen look at email, update my calendar,
>> make phone calls,.... -Kevin Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 10:26 AM,
>> tunecollector<tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> This subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has
>>> anyone
>>> used
>>> it more intensively since then? Is it ready for prime time? What
>>> are its
>>> drawbacks.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> gui-talk mailing list
>>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> gui-talk:
>>>
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail
>> .
>> com
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Kevin Fjelsted
>> B Harris, Inc.
>> http://www.bharrisinc.com
>> kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
>> Phone: 612.424.7333 EX. 301
>> Direct: 612.424.7332
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> gui-talk:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/rforetjr%40comcast
>> .net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> gui-talk:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/albertgriffith%40s
>> bcglobal.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> for gui-talk:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/n0oxy%40charter.net
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 22
> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 19:57:15 -0400
> From: Chris G <chris at mysticplace.org>
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <20090725195714.5EC8.6211D45A at mysticplace.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> Hi,
> The screen reader comes on the Mac as a full product. When you buy a
> Mac you press COMMAND-F5 to start VoiceOver.
>
> You can hear Mikes' podcasts where he demonstrates the screen reader in
> action. His latest one shows an multi platform instant messaging client
> called Adium that works great with VO.
> You can find the podcasts at www.blindcooltech.com
> Those were the reasons I decided to purchase a Mac and I like it. I
> didn't find it hard to use after listening to Mike. The hardest thing
> for me was cursor movement, but once I was able to rap my head around
> the way the Mac does it, it's not an issue.
> Chris
>
>
>
> On Sat, 25 Jul 2009 19:19:50 -0400
> "albert griffith" <albertgriffith at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> Hi Ray, I've yet to read the NFB article but I plan to soon. We'll
> benefit
>> from all the access points it should illuminate. Do you know if Apple is
>> offering their screen reader as a demo anywhere?
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> On
>> Behalf Of Ray Foret jr
>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 3:24 PM
>> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>>
>> Granted, Voice over is well worth serious consideration; but, Kevin,
> there's
>>
>> no need to get unpleasant about it. The NFB's perspective was written
> from
>
>> a Windows users point of view because that's what most blind computer
> users
>> are familiar with. Like it or not, this is so. I always hear Voice
> Over
>> users say "You can't compare the Mac to Windows.". Fair enough. So, in
>> that case, why not truly help us Windows users get to know Voice Over
> better
>>
>> instead of just criticizing us just because we do what it is human
> nature to
>>
>> do; compare one thing to another. I grant you that the Mac is worth
> serious
>>
>> consideration; and, If I wasn't still paying for this lap top, I would
>> indeed very seriously look at Voice Over. Let me give you an example of
> how
>>
>> Voice Over users can be more helpful. In the NFB article, it is stated
> that
>>
>> when you press the space bar to check or uncheck items on a web page,
> Voice
>> Over does not tell you whether an item is checked or unchecked. I
> believe
>> this is true; however, there is another factor. The article then goes
> on to
>>
>> incorrectly state that there is no way without fumbling around, to
> determine
>>
>> whether an item is checked or not. As I understand it, there is a
> special
>> Voice over key command which is used to check or uncheck items on web
> pages.
>>
>> When this key stroke is used, Voice over will tell you at once whether
> an
>> item is checked or unchecked. Now, it's quite clear to me that the
> fellow
>> reviewing Voice Over for the NFB did not know this fact. but, I ask
> you,
>> why did not some voice over users help him with the trouble he was
> having?
>> Why did the NFB not seek help from Voice Over users? Well, I think I
> can
>> answer that one. He wanted to deal with Voice Over from the stand point
> of
>> a strictly out of the box experience. IN other words, his logic was
> this.
>> "Let me see what I can learn about Voice Over strictly from the help and
>> what ever documentation I can access on my own.". Fair enough; but,
> let's
>> think a bit. How many Windows users do you know who rely just on the
> built
>> in help and what documentation they can read on their own? Well, I sure
>> don't know too many myself. Most Windows users go to one another for
> help
>> and we help each other. Why, therefore, did the NFB fellow not seek
> help in
>>
>> the same way from Mac users? A fair question I think. Frankly, I am
>> perfectly willing to take a look at Voice over, not so much from the NFB
>> stand point; nor from a Voice Over defense point of view. My look will
> be
>> based a bit on both and I will be wanting to get very objective
> information.
>>
>> I don't think I can count on either the NFB or Voice Over devotees to be
>> truly objective; and, therefore, the best strategy I can think of is to
> take
>>
>> the best of both and make your own decision.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> The Constantly BAREFOOTED Ray
>>
>> "Old friend, what are you looking for? After those many years abroad
> you
>> come With images you tended Under foreign skies Far away from your own
> land"
>> George Seferis
>>
>> Phone or Fax::
>> +1 (985) 360-3614
>> Cell:
>> +1 (985) 791-2938
>> e-mail:
>> rforetjratcomcastdotnet
>> Skype Name:
>> barefootedray
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Kevin Fjelsted" <kfjelsted at gmail.com>
>> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 12:49 PM
>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>>
>>
>> VoiceOver is absolutely awesome. A superb resource for reading details
>> from a community perspective is http://www.lioncourt.com.
>> I thhink that the exciting thing about VoiceOver is that the stars are
>> aligned for us. 1) Apple is making record profits and is applying
>> resources in support of VoiceOver access across there entire product
>> line including mobile devices. The fact that the NFB technology center
>> chooses to publish inaccuracies and propaganda
>> which is so misleading must mean that the existing companies like
>> Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to rally resources to
>> quash VoiceOver usage. When ever we see established organizations
>> becoming defensive it is time to really dig under the covers and ask
>> the reasons why. In my opinion every blind person who relies on
>> accessibility technology for computers and mobile devices needs to
>> look at VoiceOver as well as the other technologies and proactively
>> push the envelope so that we can create momentum for transparency. My
>> question is, why aren't all of the vendors emulating the approach of
>> VoiceOver, which is to have built in accessibility to the device out
>> of the box without charging extra? WHen I can pay $190 for a cell
>> phone that has built in accessibility I find that amazing compared to
>> spending money for a cell phone and then having to turn around and buy
>> a 3rd party access solution that in many cases only works half baked.
>> Not only do I get a cell phone for $190 but I get all the built in
>> apps talking clock, calculator, maps, weather forecasting, text
>> messaging, address book management, calendaring including syncing with
>> other calendars. For years blind people have taken the position that
>> touch screens are the enemy and that we can't use them. Yet the IPhone
>> with VoiceOver is totally dependent on the touch screen. I do
>> everything with the touch screen look at email, update my calendar,
>> make phone calls,.... -Kevin Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 10:26 AM,
>> tunecollector<tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> > This subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has
> anyone
>> > used
>> > it more intensively since then? Is it ready for prime time? What are
> its
>> > drawbacks.
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
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>> com
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Kevin Fjelsted
>> B Harris, Inc.
>> http://www.bharrisinc.com
>> kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
>> Phone: 612.424.7333 EX. 301
>> Direct: 612.424.7332
>>
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>>
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>
> --
> The home of the Mystic Place blog and podcast.
> www.mysticplace.info
> RSS: feeds.feedburner.com/mysticplacebp
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 23
> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 19:05:15 -0500
> From: Mike Arrigo <n0oxy at charter.net>
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <A78D204E-375D-4C33-902F-5741CA386581 at charter.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>
> Hi. Allow me to answer your question about each type of program. First
> the office suite. Microsoft Office is not accessible on the mac,
> however there are 2 alternatives. Open Office version 3 for the mac is
> accessible with voice over, so is Apple's office suite, i work version
> 9. Both of these suites will open and save Microsoft Office files. The
> word processor that comes with the mac, called text edit, will open
> and save Microsoft Word files, even version 2007.
> For playing and ripping media, there are several choices. Itunes will
> play CDS, as well as rip them to your hard drive. It can also play
> streaming media. There are also 2 other players that I know of. Quick
> time will play several media types, and there is a plug in you can
> install that will allow quick time to play windows media files as well
> as windows media streams. Another player worth considering is the vlc
> player. This plays windows media as well as .ogg files.
> Adobe reader is not needed on the mac, there is a program included
> with the mac called preview. This will open pdf files, and you can
> start reading right away, no waiting for the document to be prepared
> for reading.
> For the web, the safari browser works great, and you have access to
> much of the same functions such as moving by link heading, etc. There
> is also no forms mode to worry about, just move to the control and
> start typing, works very well. Let me know if you are concerned about
> any other applications.
> On Jul 25, 2009, at 6:04 PM, albert griffith wrote:
>
>> Hello Curtis:
>> If someone needs to access, Ms. Office, a media player to rip, burn,
>> organize and play files along with managing place markers in a wide
>> range of
>> file types
>> will the voiceover work? This person has to access the acrobat
>> reader, an
>> instant messenger and an
>
>
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