[gui-talk] Voiceover
Kenlawrence124 at aol.com
Kenlawrence124 at aol.com
Sun Jul 26 13:58:40 UTC 2009
Hi Ken here. I know the voiceover screen reader calls it's voice or at
least the default Alix. Someone with sight says it sounds like Dectalk. Is
that right? Hey wouldn't be great if the KNFB reader was worked in to an
Iphone? Also on the subject of a Mac, I don't know if anyone mentioned it
in a previous post, but we all have security issues to think about buying
computers. We do pledge to achieve Security for the blind, Shouldn't that
apply to our computers? Yeah, there are a lot of spam sending kooks out
there Huh?
I pledge to participate actively in the efforts of the national federation
of the blind to achieve equality, opportunity, and security for the blind;
to support the policies and programs of the federation; and abide by it's
constitution.
In a message dated 7/26/2009 3:01:29 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
gui-talk-request at nfbnet.org writes:
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Voiceover (Chris G)
2. Re: Voiceover (Kevin Fjelsted)
3. Re: Voiceover (albert griffith)
4. Re: Voiceover (Ray Foret jr)
5. Re: Voiceover (Kevin Fjelsted)
6. Re: [Bulk] Re: Voiceover (tunecollector)
7. Re: [Bulk] Re: Voiceover (Kevin Fjelsted)
8. Re: Voiceover (James Pepper)
9. Re: Voiceover (albert griffith)
10. Voiceover (Curtis Chong)
11. Re: [Bulk] Voiceover (tunecollector)
12. Re: Voiceover (albert griffith)
13. Re: Voiceover (albert griffith)
14. Re: Voiceover (Mike Arrigo)
15. Re: Voiceover (Dean Martineau)
16. Re: Voiceover (Mike Arrigo)
17. Re: [Bulk] Voiceover (Dean Martineau)
18. Re: Voiceover (Mike Arrigo)
19. Re: Voiceover (Mike Arrigo)
20. Re: Voiceover (Mike Arrigo)
21. Re: Voiceover (Mike Arrigo)
22. Re: Voiceover (Chris G)
23. Re: Voiceover (Mike Arrigo)
24. iPhone Shopping (Kris)
25. Re: Voiceover (Kevin Fjelsted)
26. FaceBook and MySpace (Kris)
27. Re: Voiceover (Ray Foret jr)
28. Re: iPhone Shopping (Kevin Fjelsted)
29. Re: Voiceover (qubit)
30. PS VoiceOver (qubit)
31. Re: PS VoiceOver (Kevin Fjelsted)
32. Re: Voiceover (albert griffith)
33. Re: Voiceover (albert griffith)
34. Re: Voiceover (albert griffith)
35. Re: Voiceover (albert griffith)
36. Re: Voiceover (Chris G)
37. Re: FaceBook and MySpace (Jennifer Aberdeen)
38. Re: Voiceover (albert griffith)
39. Re: Voiceover (albert griffith)
40. Re: [Bulk] Re: Voiceover (tunecollector)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 13:41:31 -0400
From: Chris G <chris at mysticplace.org>
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <20090725134130.07B3.6211D45A at mysticplace.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
http://www.blindcooltech.com
There are at least 9 podcasts up there that demonstrate VoiceOver on the
Mac.
On Sat, 25 Jul 2009 08:26:32 -0700
"tunecollector" <tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> This subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has anyone
used
> it more intensively since then? Is it ready for prime time? What are
its
> drawbacks.
>
> _______________________________________________
> gui-talk mailing list
> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
gui-talk:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/chris%40mysticplace.org
--
The home of the Mystic Place blog and podcast.
www.mysticplace.info
RSS: feeds.feedburner.com/mysticplacebp
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 12:49:38 -0500
From: Kevin Fjelsted <kfjelsted at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Message-ID:
<b6d81870907251049m129e2f35u69f30e8b3a52624b at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
VoiceOver is absolutely awesome. A superb resource for reading details
from a community perspective is http://www.lioncourt.com.
I thhink that the exciting thing about VoiceOver is that the stars are
aligned for us. 1) Apple is making record profits and is applying
resources in support of VoiceOver access across there entire product
line including mobile devices. The fact that the NFB technology center
chooses to publish inaccuracies and propaganda
which is so misleading must mean that the existing companies like
Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to rally resources to
quash VoiceOver usage. When ever we see established organizations
becoming defensive it is time to really dig under the covers and ask
the reasons why. In my opinion every blind person who relies on
accessibility technology for computers and mobile devices needs to
look at VoiceOver as well as the other technologies and proactively
push the envelope so that we can create momentum for transparency. My
question is, why aren't all of the vendors emulating the approach of
VoiceOver, which is to have built in accessibility to the device out
of the box without charging extra? WHen I can pay $190 for a cell
phone that has built in accessibility I find that amazing compared to
spending money for a cell phone and then having to turn around and buy
a 3rd party access solution that in many cases only works half baked.
Not only do I get a cell phone for $190 but I get all the built in
apps talking clock, calculator, maps, weather forecasting, text
messaging, address book management, calendaring including syncing with
other calendars. For years blind people have taken the position that
touch screens are the enemy and that we can't use them. Yet the IPhone
with VoiceOver is totally dependent on the touch screen. I do
everything with the touch screen look at email, update my calendar,
make phone calls,.... -Kevin Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 10:26 AM,
tunecollector<tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> This subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has anyone
used
> it more intensively since then? ?Is it ready for prime time? ? ?What are
its
> drawbacks.
>
> _______________________________________________
> gui-talk mailing list
> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
gui-talk:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com
>
--
Kevin Fjelsted
B Harris, Inc.
http://www.bharrisinc.com
kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
Phone: 612.424.7333 EX. 301
Direct: 612.424.7332
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 15:00:20 -0400
From: "albert griffith" <albertgriffith at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
To: "'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <006c01ca0d5a$284552d0$78cff870$@net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi Kevin, I'm definitely purchasing a new machine in the next couple of
months and I'm seriously considering a Mac. I'd like to read the NFB
articles of which you speak with all their inaccuracies but I don't know
where to locate them. Can you tell me where to go to read them? I don't
need an exact URL just the general area will do. thanks
-----Original Message-----
From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Kevin Fjelsted
Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 1:50 PM
To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
VoiceOver is absolutely awesome. A superb resource for reading details
from a community perspective is http://www.lioncourt.com.
I thhink that the exciting thing about VoiceOver is that the stars are
aligned for us. 1) Apple is making record profits and is applying
resources in support of VoiceOver access across there entire product
line including mobile devices. The fact that the NFB technology center
chooses to publish inaccuracies and propaganda
which is so misleading must mean that the existing companies like
Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to rally resources to
quash VoiceOver usage. When ever we see established organizations
becoming defensive it is time to really dig under the covers and ask
the reasons why. In my opinion every blind person who relies on
accessibility technology for computers and mobile devices needs to
look at VoiceOver as well as the other technologies and proactively
push the envelope so that we can create momentum for transparency. My
question is, why aren't all of the vendors emulating the approach of
VoiceOver, which is to have built in accessibility to the device out
of the box without charging extra? WHen I can pay $190 for a cell
phone that has built in accessibility I find that amazing compared to
spending money for a cell phone and then having to turn around and buy
a 3rd party access solution that in many cases only works half baked.
Not only do I get a cell phone for $190 but I get all the built in
apps talking clock, calculator, maps, weather forecasting, text
messaging, address book management, calendaring including syncing with
other calendars. For years blind people have taken the position that
touch screens are the enemy and that we can't use them. Yet the IPhone
with VoiceOver is totally dependent on the touch screen. I do
everything with the touch screen look at email, update my calendar,
make phone calls,.... -Kevin Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 10:26 AM,
tunecollector<tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> This subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has anyone
used
> it more intensively since then? ?Is it ready for prime time? ? ?What are
its
> drawbacks.
>
> _______________________________________________
> gui-talk mailing list
> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
gui-talk:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.
com
>
--
Kevin Fjelsted
B Harris, Inc.
http://www.bharrisinc.com
kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
Phone: 612.424.7333 EX. 301
Direct: 612.424.7332
_______________________________________________
gui-talk mailing list
gui-talk at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
gui-talk:
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bcglobal.net
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 14:24:12 -0500
From: "Ray Foret jr" <rforetjr at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <2CED535603A7485C9A04B1E40F7D2F9E at OwnerPC>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Granted, Voice over is well worth serious consideration; but, Kevin,
there's
no need to get unpleasant about it. The NFB's perspective was written
from
a Windows users point of view because that's what most blind computer
users
are familiar with. Like it or not, this is so. I always hear Voice Over
users say "You can't compare the Mac to Windows.". Fair enough. So, in
that case, why not truly help us Windows users get to know Voice Over
better
instead of just criticizing us just because we do what it is human nature
to
do; compare one thing to another. I grant you that the Mac is worth
serious
consideration; and, If I wasn't still paying for this lap top, I would
indeed very seriously look at Voice Over. Let me give you an example of
how
Voice Over users can be more helpful. In the NFB article, it is stated
that
when you press the space bar to check or uncheck items on a web page,
Voice
Over does not tell you whether an item is checked or unchecked. I
believe
this is true; however, there is another factor. The article then goes on
to
incorrectly state that there is no way without fumbling around, to
determine
whether an item is checked or not. As I understand it, there is a special
Voice over key command which is used to check or uncheck items on web
pages.
When this key stroke is used, Voice over will tell you at once whether an
item is checked or unchecked. Now, it's quite clear to me that the fellow
reviewing Voice Over for the NFB did not know this fact. but, I ask you,
why did not some voice over users help him with the trouble he was having?
Why did the NFB not seek help from Voice Over users? Well, I think I can
answer that one. He wanted to deal with Voice Over from the stand point
of
a strictly out of the box experience. IN other words, his logic was this.
"Let me see what I can learn about Voice Over strictly from the help and
what ever documentation I can access on my own.". Fair enough; but, let's
think a bit. How many Windows users do you know who rely just on the
built
in help and what documentation they can read on their own? Well, I sure
don't know too many myself. Most Windows users go to one another for help
and we help each other. Why, therefore, did the NFB fellow not seek help
in
the same way from Mac users? A fair question I think. Frankly, I am
perfectly willing to take a look at Voice over, not so much from the NFB
stand point; nor from a Voice Over defense point of view. My look will be
based a bit on both and I will be wanting to get very objective
information.
I don't think I can count on either the NFB or Voice Over devotees to be
truly objective; and, therefore, the best strategy I can think of is to
take
the best of both and make your own decision.
Sincerely,
The Constantly BAREFOOTED Ray
"Old friend, what are you looking for? After those many years abroad you
come With images you tended Under foreign skies Far away from your own
land"
George Seferis
Phone or Fax::
+1 (985) 360-3614
Cell:
+1 (985) 791-2938
e-mail:
rforetjratcomcastdotnet
Skype Name:
barefootedray
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Fjelsted" <kfjelsted at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 12:49 PM
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
VoiceOver is absolutely awesome. A superb resource for reading details
from a community perspective is http://www.lioncourt.com.
I thhink that the exciting thing about VoiceOver is that the stars are
aligned for us. 1) Apple is making record profits and is applying
resources in support of VoiceOver access across there entire product
line including mobile devices. The fact that the NFB technology center
chooses to publish inaccuracies and propaganda
which is so misleading must mean that the existing companies like
Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to rally resources to
quash VoiceOver usage. When ever we see established organizations
becoming defensive it is time to really dig under the covers and ask
the reasons why. In my opinion every blind person who relies on
accessibility technology for computers and mobile devices needs to
look at VoiceOver as well as the other technologies and proactively
push the envelope so that we can create momentum for transparency. My
question is, why aren't all of the vendors emulating the approach of
VoiceOver, which is to have built in accessibility to the device out
of the box without charging extra? WHen I can pay $190 for a cell
phone that has built in accessibility I find that amazing compared to
spending money for a cell phone and then having to turn around and buy
a 3rd party access solution that in many cases only works half baked.
Not only do I get a cell phone for $190 but I get all the built in
apps talking clock, calculator, maps, weather forecasting, text
messaging, address book management, calendaring including syncing with
other calendars. For years blind people have taken the position that
touch screens are the enemy and that we can't use them. Yet the IPhone
with VoiceOver is totally dependent on the touch screen. I do
everything with the touch screen look at email, update my calendar,
make phone calls,.... -Kevin Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 10:26 AM,
tunecollector<tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> This subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has anyone
> used
> it more intensively since then? Is it ready for prime time? What are its
> drawbacks.
>
> _______________________________________________
> gui-talk mailing list
> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> gui-talk:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com
>
--
Kevin Fjelsted
B Harris, Inc.
http://www.bharrisinc.com
kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
Phone: 612.424.7333 EX. 301
Direct: 612.424.7332
_______________________________________________
gui-talk mailing list
gui-talk at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
gui-talk:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/rforetjr%40comcast
.net
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 14:55:10 -0500
From: Kevin Fjelsted <kfjelsted at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Message-ID:
<b6d81870907251255x12cf6e9ds28d3886bab4b8f22 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
The NFB article is located at
http://tinyurl.com/ndplsk
I recommend that you also read a review of that article at
http://tinyurl.com/l2samj
-Kevin
On 7/25/09, albert griffith <albertgriffith at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Hi Kevin, I'm definitely purchasing a new machine in the next couple of
> months and I'm seriously considering a Mac. I'd like to read the NFB
> articles of which you speak with all their inaccuracies but I don't know
> where to locate them. Can you tell me where to go to read them? I don't
> need an exact URL just the general area will do. thanks
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Kevin Fjelsted
> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 1:50 PM
> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>
> VoiceOver is absolutely awesome. A superb resource for reading details
> from a community perspective is http://www.lioncourt.com.
> I thhink that the exciting thing about VoiceOver is that the stars are
> aligned for us. 1) Apple is making record profits and is applying
> resources in support of VoiceOver access across there entire product
> line including mobile devices. The fact that the NFB technology center
> chooses to publish inaccuracies and propaganda
> which is so misleading must mean that the existing companies like
> Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to rally resources to
> quash VoiceOver usage. When ever we see established organizations
> becoming defensive it is time to really dig under the covers and ask
> the reasons why. In my opinion every blind person who relies on
> accessibility technology for computers and mobile devices needs to
> look at VoiceOver as well as the other technologies and proactively
> push the envelope so that we can create momentum for transparency. My
> question is, why aren't all of the vendors emulating the approach of
> VoiceOver, which is to have built in accessibility to the device out
> of the box without charging extra? WHen I can pay $190 for a cell
> phone that has built in accessibility I find that amazing compared to
> spending money for a cell phone and then having to turn around and buy
> a 3rd party access solution that in many cases only works half baked.
> Not only do I get a cell phone for $190 but I get all the built in
> apps talking clock, calculator, maps, weather forecasting, text
> messaging, address book management, calendaring including syncing with
> other calendars. For years blind people have taken the position that
> touch screens are the enemy and that we can't use them. Yet the IPhone
> with VoiceOver is totally dependent on the touch screen. I do
> everything with the touch screen look at email, update my calendar,
> make phone calls,.... -Kevin Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 10:26 AM,
> tunecollector<tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> This subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has anyone
> used
>> it more intensively since then? Is it ready for prime time? What are
> its
>> drawbacks.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> gui-talk:
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.
> com
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Kevin Fjelsted
> B Harris, Inc.
> http://www.bharrisinc.com
> kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
> Phone: 612.424.7333 EX. 301
> Direct: 612.424.7332
>
> _______________________________________________
> gui-talk mailing list
> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> gui-talk:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/albertgriffith%40s
> bcglobal.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> gui-talk mailing list
> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> gui-talk:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com
>
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 13:19:57 -0700
From: "tunecollector" <tunecollector at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] [Bulk] Re: Voiceover
To: "'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <0EBFDABF6BC641BBBDEFDB90CF765E3B at computer>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Is there a Voiceover users list?
-----Original Message-----
From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Kevin Fjelsted
Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 10:50 AM
To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
Subject: [Bulk] Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
VoiceOver is absolutely awesome. A superb resource for reading details
from a community perspective is http://www.lioncourt.com.
I thhink that the exciting thing about VoiceOver is that the stars are
aligned for us. 1) Apple is making record profits and is applying
resources in support of VoiceOver access across there entire product
line including mobile devices. The fact that the NFB technology center
chooses to publish inaccuracies and propaganda
which is so misleading must mean that the existing companies like
Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to rally resources to
quash VoiceOver usage. When ever we see established organizations
becoming defensive it is time to really dig under the covers and ask
the reasons why. In my opinion every blind person who relies on
accessibility technology for computers and mobile devices needs to
look at VoiceOver as well as the other technologies and proactively
push the envelope so that we can create momentum for transparency. My
question is, why aren't all of the vendors emulating the approach of
VoiceOver, which is to have built in accessibility to the device out
of the box without charging extra? WHen I can pay $190 for a cell
phone that has built in accessibility I find that amazing compared to
spending money for a cell phone and then having to turn around and buy
a 3rd party access solution that in many cases only works half baked.
Not only do I get a cell phone for $190 but I get all the built in
apps talking clock, calculator, maps, weather forecasting, text
messaging, address book management, calendaring including syncing with
other calendars. For years blind people have taken the position that
touch screens are the enemy and that we can't use them. Yet the IPhone
with VoiceOver is totally dependent on the touch screen. I do
everything with the touch screen look at email, update my calendar,
make phone calls,.... -Kevin Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 10:26 AM,
tunecollector<tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> This subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has anyone
used
> it more intensively since then? ?Is it ready for prime time? ? ?What are
its
> drawbacks.
>
> _______________________________________________
> gui-talk mailing list
> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
gui-talk:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.
com
>
--
Kevin Fjelsted
B Harris, Inc.
http://www.bharrisinc.com
kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
Phone: 612.424.7333 EX. 301
Direct: 612.424.7332
_______________________________________________
gui-talk mailing list
gui-talk at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
gui-talk:
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cglobal.net
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------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 16:30:23 -0500
From: Kevin Fjelsted <kfjelsted at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] [Bulk] Re: Voiceover
To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Message-ID:
<b6d81870907251430s2cd7523ck3dbf8232797f362a at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
There are two excellent groups.
For VoiceOver on the Mac join the group
http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries
For VoiceOver on the IPhone join the group
http://groups.google.com/group/viphone
-Kevin
On 7/25/09, tunecollector <tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Is there a Voiceover users list?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Kevin Fjelsted
> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 10:50 AM
> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
> Subject: [Bulk] Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>
> VoiceOver is absolutely awesome. A superb resource for reading details
> from a community perspective is http://www.lioncourt.com.
> I thhink that the exciting thing about VoiceOver is that the stars are
> aligned for us. 1) Apple is making record profits and is applying
> resources in support of VoiceOver access across there entire product
> line including mobile devices. The fact that the NFB technology center
> chooses to publish inaccuracies and propaganda
> which is so misleading must mean that the existing companies like
> Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to rally resources to
> quash VoiceOver usage. When ever we see established organizations
> becoming defensive it is time to really dig under the covers and ask
> the reasons why. In my opinion every blind person who relies on
> accessibility technology for computers and mobile devices needs to
> look at VoiceOver as well as the other technologies and proactively
> push the envelope so that we can create momentum for transparency. My
> question is, why aren't all of the vendors emulating the approach of
> VoiceOver, which is to have built in accessibility to the device out
> of the box without charging extra? WHen I can pay $190 for a cell
> phone that has built in accessibility I find that amazing compared to
> spending money for a cell phone and then having to turn around and buy
> a 3rd party access solution that in many cases only works half baked.
> Not only do I get a cell phone for $190 but I get all the built in
> apps talking clock, calculator, maps, weather forecasting, text
> messaging, address book management, calendaring including syncing with
> other calendars. For years blind people have taken the position that
> touch screens are the enemy and that we can't use them. Yet the IPhone
> with VoiceOver is totally dependent on the touch screen. I do
> everything with the touch screen look at email, update my calendar,
> make phone calls,.... -Kevin Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 10:26 AM,
> tunecollector<tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> This subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has anyone
> used
>> it more intensively since then? Is it ready for prime time? What are
> its
>> drawbacks.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> gui-talk:
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.
> com
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Kevin Fjelsted
> B Harris, Inc.
> http://www.bharrisinc.com
> kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
> Phone: 612.424.7333 EX. 301
> Direct: 612.424.7332
>
> _______________________________________________
> gui-talk mailing list
> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> gui-talk:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/tunecollector%40sb
> cglobal.net
>
>
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> _______________________________________________
> gui-talk mailing list
> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> gui-talk:
>
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>
--
Kevin Fjelsted
B Harris, Inc.
http://www.bharrisinc.com
kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
Phone: 612.424.7333 EX. 301
Direct: 612.424.7332
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 16:39:46 -0500
From: James Pepper <b75205 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Message-ID:
<fe5b78280907251439u26b3c28v77c0a946a618f9a6 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Here is the AFB Tech, the American Foundation for the Blind's Technology
Center's review of Voice Over. I highly recommend you check into the AFB
Tech Site because they test everything in their West Virginia facility.
http://www.afb.org/afbpress/pub.asp?DocID=aw090603
Just note that in the past Apple has been very vocal against the AFB
because
in the past you had to select text on the screen to read it and the folks
at
AFB tech pointed out that the blind could not see the screen to select the
text.
Here is a link to the braille version of the article:
http://www.afb.org/afbpress/Braille.asp?DocID=aw090603&PageTitle=An+Evaluati
on+of+VoiceOver%2C+the+Macintosh+Screen+Reader+%2D+AccessWorld%AE+%2D+Novemb
er+2008
I would recommend staying with the PC environment because most
accessibility
was developed on that system and especially when you are dealing with
Microsoft Office you will find that the mac versions do not have all the
features of the PC versions. I know that will cause a lot of chaos here
but
it is a problem. Microsoft is the company that is focusing on
accessibility
and especially on the PC, they are fed up with the way things are going now
and with their new ARIA standards, I would recommend staying on the PC
bandwagon.
James Pepper
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 17:47:30 -0400
From: "albert griffith" <albertgriffith at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
To: "'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <000401ca0d71$849fc850$8ddf58f0$@net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Ray, you've nearly mirrored my point of view relative to voiceover. I'm
going to purchase a computer by year's end so I'm reviewing many operating
systems
With a real critical eye. The screen reader developed by Apple has my
attention for obvious reasons. Since it's built in I'll save allot of cash
over time if it will perform adequately. My chief concerns are
availability
and the accessibility of the programs I most often use. I consider myself
quite tech savvy but I'm finding many of those with experience with the
system are real tech oriented so their need for a clean out-of-box
experience isn't as important to them. I'm open to any comparative
appraisals of the two screen readers. If I had to go with an operating
system and screen reader today I'd remove voiceover from my list of choices
because I believe although without much evidence that it needs a little
seasoning. I'm predicting it will work real well on my next machine which
I'll probably buy in 2013 or 14 but I'm not so sure that I'm ready to stop
my evaluations. I'm also considering hooking up with Serotek's mobile
network. It not only works well with many programs but the price is right.
Any articles you or anyone else could point me too will be appreciated.
The
information we gather as list members will help all of us. On one level I'm
frustrated with the number of choices we have but I'm also grateful for
them.
-----Original Message-----
From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Ray Foret jr
Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 3:24 PM
To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
Granted, Voice over is well worth serious consideration; but, Kevin,
there's
no need to get unpleasant about it. The NFB's perspective was written
from
a Windows users point of view because that's what most blind computer
users
are familiar with. Like it or not, this is so. I always hear Voice Over
users say "You can't compare the Mac to Windows.". Fair enough. So, in
that case, why not truly help us Windows users get to know Voice Over
better
instead of just criticizing us just because we do what it is human nature
to
do; compare one thing to another. I grant you that the Mac is worth
serious
consideration; and, If I wasn't still paying for this lap top, I would
indeed very seriously look at Voice Over. Let me give you an example of
how
Voice Over users can be more helpful. In the NFB article, it is stated
that
when you press the space bar to check or uncheck items on a web page,
Voice
Over does not tell you whether an item is checked or unchecked. I
believe
this is true; however, there is another factor. The article then goes on
to
incorrectly state that there is no way without fumbling around, to
determine
whether an item is checked or not. As I understand it, there is a special
Voice over key command which is used to check or uncheck items on web
pages.
When this key stroke is used, Voice over will tell you at once whether an
item is checked or unchecked. Now, it's quite clear to me that the fellow
reviewing Voice Over for the NFB did not know this fact. but, I ask you,
why did not some voice over users help him with the trouble he was having?
Why did the NFB not seek help from Voice Over users? Well, I think I can
answer that one. He wanted to deal with Voice Over from the stand point
of
a strictly out of the box experience. IN other words, his logic was this.
"Let me see what I can learn about Voice Over strictly from the help and
what ever documentation I can access on my own.". Fair enough; but, let's
think a bit. How many Windows users do you know who rely just on the
built
in help and what documentation they can read on their own? Well, I sure
don't know too many myself. Most Windows users go to one another for help
and we help each other. Why, therefore, did the NFB fellow not seek help
in
the same way from Mac users? A fair question I think. Frankly, I am
perfectly willing to take a look at Voice over, not so much from the NFB
stand point; nor from a Voice Over defense point of view. My look will be
based a bit on both and I will be wanting to get very objective
information.
I don't think I can count on either the NFB or Voice Over devotees to be
truly objective; and, therefore, the best strategy I can think of is to
take
the best of both and make your own decision.
Sincerely,
The Constantly BAREFOOTED Ray
"Old friend, what are you looking for? After those many years abroad you
come With images you tended Under foreign skies Far away from your own
land"
George Seferis
Phone or Fax::
+1 (985) 360-3614
Cell:
+1 (985) 791-2938
e-mail:
rforetjratcomcastdotnet
Skype Name:
barefootedray
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Fjelsted" <kfjelsted at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 12:49 PM
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
VoiceOver is absolutely awesome. A superb resource for reading details
from a community perspective is http://www.lioncourt.com.
I thhink that the exciting thing about VoiceOver is that the stars are
aligned for us. 1) Apple is making record profits and is applying
resources in support of VoiceOver access across there entire product
line including mobile devices. The fact that the NFB technology center
chooses to publish inaccuracies and propaganda
which is so misleading must mean that the existing companies like
Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to rally resources to
quash VoiceOver usage. When ever we see established organizations
becoming defensive it is time to really dig under the covers and ask
the reasons why. In my opinion every blind person who relies on
accessibility technology for computers and mobile devices needs to
look at VoiceOver as well as the other technologies and proactively
push the envelope so that we can create momentum for transparency. My
question is, why aren't all of the vendors emulating the approach of
VoiceOver, which is to have built in accessibility to the device out
of the box without charging extra? WHen I can pay $190 for a cell
phone that has built in accessibility I find that amazing compared to
spending money for a cell phone and then having to turn around and buy
a 3rd party access solution that in many cases only works half baked.
Not only do I get a cell phone for $190 but I get all the built in
apps talking clock, calculator, maps, weather forecasting, text
messaging, address book management, calendaring including syncing with
other calendars. For years blind people have taken the position that
touch screens are the enemy and that we can't use them. Yet the IPhone
with VoiceOver is totally dependent on the touch screen. I do
everything with the touch screen look at email, update my calendar,
make phone calls,.... -Kevin Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 10:26 AM,
tunecollector<tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> This subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has anyone
> used
> it more intensively since then? Is it ready for prime time? What are its
> drawbacks.
>
> _______________________________________________
> gui-talk mailing list
> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> gui-talk:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.
com
>
--
Kevin Fjelsted
B Harris, Inc.
http://www.bharrisinc.com
kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
Phone: 612.424.7333 EX. 301
Direct: 612.424.7332
_______________________________________________
gui-talk mailing list
gui-talk at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
gui-talk:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/rforetjr%40comcast
.net
_______________________________________________
gui-talk mailing list
gui-talk at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
gui-talk:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/albertgriffith%40s
bcglobal.net
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 16:55:51 -0500
From: "Curtis Chong" <curtischong at earthlink.net>
Subject: [gui-talk] Voiceover
To: "'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <000001ca0d72$add1a170$0974e450$@net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
On July 25, 2009, Kevin Fjelsted wrote in relevant part:
"The fact that the NFB technology center chooses to publish inaccuracies
and
propaganda which is so misleading must mean that the existing companies
like
Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to rally resources to
quash
VoiceOver usage."
Having managed the International Braille and Technology Center for five
years, I think I can say with some credibility that the Braille Monitor
article which Kevin refers to was not intended to be deliberately
inaccurate. Nor was it intended to (as he says) "quash VoiceOver usage."
The article that was published in the June edition of the Braille Monitor
was clearly written from the perspective of a community which, in the main,
has strong familiarity with the Windows operating system, Windows-based
screen access technology, and Windows conventions. Having read the article
myself and reviewed some of the responses to it, I would acknowledge that
the article can be said to contain some inaccuracies and erroneous
conclusions. However, the perspective of the author, while not that of a
VoiceOver user, is reflective of the majority of blind computer users who,
today, are familiar with Windows. Clearly, the author of the article was
not aware that there is a very dedicated community of blind people who have
developed a high degree of understanding, competence, and sophistication
with VoiceOver and the Macintosh. The article would have been well served
if the author had been able to talk with some of these people.
This may have been the case when the article was written, but I am
confident
that the voices of the Macintosh and VoiceOver community have been heard
and
are even now being consulted.
Cordially,
Curtis Chong
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 16:01:26 -0700
From: "tunecollector" <tunecollector at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] [Bulk] Voiceover
To: "'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <80DD6C7C917F4D73A373EE3BC4B6BC66 at computer>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Probably echoing the sentiment, I would have found the article
uninformative
if it had been written strictly from a Mac user's viewpoint since I have
absolutely no familiarity with a Mac computer. Despite that, I have no
loyalty to a PC over a Mac. I do not consider myself computer savvy and
most likely never will be. I am looking for something for ease of use and
not for maximizing what I can dan do with a computer.
-----Original Message-----
From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Curtis Chong
Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 2:56 PM
To: 'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'
Subject: [Bulk] [gui-talk] Voiceover
On July 25, 2009, Kevin Fjelsted wrote in relevant part:
"The fact that the NFB technology center chooses to publish inaccuracies
and
propaganda which is so misleading must mean that the existing companies
like
Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to rally resources to
quash
VoiceOver usage."
Having managed the International Braille and Technology Center for five
years, I think I can say with some credibility that the Braille Monitor
article which Kevin refers to was not intended to be deliberately
inaccurate. Nor was it intended to (as he says) "quash VoiceOver usage."
The article that was published in the June edition of the Braille Monitor
was clearly written from the perspective of a community which, in the main,
has strong familiarity with the Windows operating system, Windows-based
screen access technology, and Windows conventions. Having read the article
myself and reviewed some of the responses to it, I would acknowledge that
the article can be said to contain some inaccuracies and erroneous
conclusions. However, the perspective of the author, while not that of a
VoiceOver user, is reflective of the majority of blind computer users who,
today, are familiar with Windows. Clearly, the author of the article was
not aware that there is a very dedicated community of blind people who have
developed a high degree of understanding, competence, and sophistication
with VoiceOver and the Macintosh. The article would have been well served
if the author had been able to talk with some of these people.
This may have been the case when the article was written, but I am
confident
that the voices of the Macintosh and VoiceOver community have been heard
and
are even now being consulted.
Cordially,
Curtis Chong
_______________________________________________
gui-talk mailing list
gui-talk at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
gui-talk:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/tunecollector%40sb
cglobal.net
__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
signature
database 4277 (20090725) __________
The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
http://www.eset.com
__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
signature
database 4277 (20090725) __________
The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
http://www.eset.com
------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 19:04:42 -0400
From: "albert griffith" <albertgriffith at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
To: "'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <001301ca0d7c$4c9e50b0$e5daf210$@net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hello Curtis:
If someone needs to access, Ms. Office, a media player to rip, burn,
organize and play files along with managing place markers in a wide range
of
file types
will the voiceover work? This person has to access the acrobat reader, an
instant messenger and an internet browser.
-----Original Message-----
From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Curtis Chong
Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 5:56 PM
To: 'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'
Subject: [gui-talk] Voiceover
On July 25, 2009, Kevin Fjelsted wrote in relevant part:
"The fact that the NFB technology center chooses to publish inaccuracies
and
propaganda which is so misleading must mean that the existing companies
like
Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to rally resources to
quash
VoiceOver usage."
Having managed the International Braille and Technology Center for five
years, I think I can say with some credibility that the Braille Monitor
article which Kevin refers to was not intended to be deliberately
inaccurate. Nor was it intended to (as he says) "quash VoiceOver usage."
The article that was published in the June edition of the Braille Monitor
was clearly written from the perspective of a community which, in the main,
has strong familiarity with the Windows operating system, Windows-based
screen access technology, and Windows conventions. Having read the article
myself and reviewed some of the responses to it, I would acknowledge that
the article can be said to contain some inaccuracies and erroneous
conclusions. However, the perspective of the author, while not that of a
VoiceOver user, is reflective of the majority of blind computer users who,
today, are familiar with Windows. Clearly, the author of the article was
not aware that there is a very dedicated community of blind people who have
developed a high degree of understanding, competence, and sophistication
with VoiceOver and the Macintosh. The article would have been well served
if the author had been able to talk with some of these people.
This may have been the case when the article was written, but I am
confident
that the voices of the Macintosh and VoiceOver community have been heard
and
are even now being consulted.
Cordially,
Curtis Chong
_______________________________________________
gui-talk mailing list
gui-talk at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
gui-talk:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/albertgriffith%40s
bcglobal.net
------------------------------
Message: 13
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 19:19:50 -0400
From: "albert griffith" <albertgriffith at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
To: "'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <001a01ca0d7e$6933e710$3b9bb530$@net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi Ray, I've yet to read the NFB article but I plan to soon. We'll
benefit
from all the access points it should illuminate. Do you know if Apple is
offering their screen reader as a demo anywhere?
-----Original Message-----
From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Ray Foret jr
Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 3:24 PM
To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
Granted, Voice over is well worth serious consideration; but, Kevin,
there's
no need to get unpleasant about it. The NFB's perspective was written
from
a Windows users point of view because that's what most blind computer
users
are familiar with. Like it or not, this is so. I always hear Voice Over
users say "You can't compare the Mac to Windows.". Fair enough. So, in
that case, why not truly help us Windows users get to know Voice Over
better
instead of just criticizing us just because we do what it is human nature
to
do; compare one thing to another. I grant you that the Mac is worth
serious
consideration; and, If I wasn't still paying for this lap top, I would
indeed very seriously look at Voice Over. Let me give you an example of
how
Voice Over users can be more helpful. In the NFB article, it is stated
that
when you press the space bar to check or uncheck items on a web page,
Voice
Over does not tell you whether an item is checked or unchecked. I
believe
this is true; however, there is another factor. The article then goes on
to
incorrectly state that there is no way without fumbling around, to
determine
whether an item is checked or not. As I understand it, there is a special
Voice over key command which is used to check or uncheck items on web
pages.
When this key stroke is used, Voice over will tell you at once whether an
item is checked or unchecked. Now, it's quite clear to me that the fellow
reviewing Voice Over for the NFB did not know this fact. but, I ask you,
why did not some voice over users help him with the trouble he was having?
Why did the NFB not seek help from Voice Over users? Well, I think I can
answer that one. He wanted to deal with Voice Over from the stand point
of
a strictly out of the box experience. IN other words, his logic was this.
"Let me see what I can learn about Voice Over strictly from the help and
what ever documentation I can access on my own.". Fair enough; but, let's
think a bit. How many Windows users do you know who rely just on the
built
in help and what documentation they can read on their own? Well, I sure
don't know too many myself. Most Windows users go to one another for help
and we help each other. Why, therefore, did the NFB fellow not seek help
in
the same way from Mac users? A fair question I think. Frankly, I am
perfectly willing to take a look at Voice over, not so much from the NFB
stand point; nor from a Voice Over defense point of view. My look will be
based a bit on both and I will be wanting to get very objective
information.
I don't think I can count on either the NFB or Voice Over devotees to be
truly objective; and, therefore, the best strategy I can think of is to
take
the best of both and make your own decision.
Sincerely,
The Constantly BAREFOOTED Ray
"Old friend, what are you looking for? After those many years abroad you
come With images you tended Under foreign skies Far away from your own
land"
George Seferis
Phone or Fax::
+1 (985) 360-3614
Cell:
+1 (985) 791-2938
e-mail:
rforetjratcomcastdotnet
Skype Name:
barefootedray
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Fjelsted" <kfjelsted at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 12:49 PM
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
VoiceOver is absolutely awesome. A superb resource for reading details
from a community perspective is http://www.lioncourt.com.
I thhink that the exciting thing about VoiceOver is that the stars are
aligned for us. 1) Apple is making record profits and is applying
resources in support of VoiceOver access across there entire product
line including mobile devices. The fact that the NFB technology center
chooses to publish inaccuracies and propaganda
which is so misleading must mean that the existing companies like
Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to rally resources to
quash VoiceOver usage. When ever we see established organizations
becoming defensive it is time to really dig under the covers and ask
the reasons why. In my opinion every blind person who relies on
accessibility technology for computers and mobile devices needs to
look at VoiceOver as well as the other technologies and proactively
push the envelope so that we can create momentum for transparency. My
question is, why aren't all of the vendors emulating the approach of
VoiceOver, which is to have built in accessibility to the device out
of the box without charging extra? WHen I can pay $190 for a cell
phone that has built in accessibility I find that amazing compared to
spending money for a cell phone and then having to turn around and buy
a 3rd party access solution that in many cases only works half baked.
Not only do I get a cell phone for $190 but I get all the built in
apps talking clock, calculator, maps, weather forecasting, text
messaging, address book management, calendaring including syncing with
other calendars. For years blind people have taken the position that
touch screens are the enemy and that we can't use them. Yet the IPhone
with VoiceOver is totally dependent on the touch screen. I do
everything with the touch screen look at email, update my calendar,
make phone calls,.... -Kevin Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 10:26 AM,
tunecollector<tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> This subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has anyone
> used
> it more intensively since then? Is it ready for prime time? What are its
> drawbacks.
>
> _______________________________________________
> gui-talk mailing list
> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> gui-talk:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.
com
>
--
Kevin Fjelsted
B Harris, Inc.
http://www.bharrisinc.com
kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
Phone: 612.424.7333 EX. 301
Direct: 612.424.7332
_______________________________________________
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http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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.net
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bcglobal.net
------------------------------
Message: 14
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 18:28:18 -0500
From: Mike Arrigo <n0oxy at charter.net>
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <3B43A41E-B8A2-4A6C-B42F-206F766AED1A at charter.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
Hi, it's definitely ready for prime time, and is used by many blind
users, I'm using it as I type this message. As far as advantages and
disadvantages, the main advantage is that it is built in to the
ooperating system, as a blind person, you pay no more than anyone else
for accessibility. There are of course differences with the mac
compared to windows, so there is a bit of a learning curve at first,
the only other possible disadvantage I could see for some people is
that on web pages, there is no table navigation mode. I don't see this
as a big thing, since I never use this even in windows. The macintosh
has become my primary computer, and I use it far more than windows. I
would put the functionality of voice over against the windows screen
readers any day, you can do just as much I think.
On Jul 25, 2009, at 10:26 AM, tunecollector wrote:
> This subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has
> anyone used
> it more intensively since then? Is it ready for prime time? What
> are its
> drawbacks.
>
> _______________________________________________
> gui-talk mailing list
> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> for gui-talk:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/n0oxy%40charter.net
------------------------------
Message: 15
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 16:32:25 -0700
From: "Dean Martineau" <dean at topdotenterprises.com>
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
To: "'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <026301ca0d80$2cbb0730$86311590$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
The kinds of questions Albert asks are the sort of questions the Federation
staff should have taken on objectivbely, but didn't, and I'll be surprised
if they ever do, because they'll have to admit they actually erred. The
choice of Mac vs. Windows, and trhen Voice Over vs. any of several windows
screen readers, gets down to learning style, economics,and the functions
you
want to perform with the computer. As I understand it, MS Office is not
accessible but there are alternatives which can work in some situations.
Anything media-related will be at least as good with the Mac and will
probably be supported by Voice Over. One advantage of Voice Over and the
Mac is that one needs to learn many fewer keystrokes. One does things,
apparently effectively, in much more the way a sighted computer user will
do
them. For some learners, this is clearly an advantage. The point is that
somebody who knows both systems well, and probably who likes them both,
should be conducting the analysis. Such people do exist, and if they
don't,
it would be a great function of that Baltimore Center to seriously acquire
the skill.
Dean
-----Original Message-----
From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of albert griffith
Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 4:05 PM
To: 'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
Hello Curtis:
If someone needs to access, Ms. Office, a media player to rip, burn,
organize and play files along with managing place markers in a wide range
of
file types
will the voiceover work? This person has to access the acrobat reader, an
instant messenger and an internet browser.
-----Original Message-----
From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Curtis Chong
Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 5:56 PM
To: 'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'
Subject: [gui-talk] Voiceover
On July 25, 2009, Kevin Fjelsted wrote in relevant part:
"The fact that the NFB technology center chooses to publish inaccuracies
and
propaganda which is so misleading must mean that the existing companies
like
Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to rally resources to
quash
VoiceOver usage."
Having managed the International Braille and Technology Center for five
years, I think I can say with some credibility that the Braille Monitor
article which Kevin refers to was not intended to be deliberately
inaccurate. Nor was it intended to (as he says) "quash VoiceOver usage."
The article that was published in the June edition of the Braille Monitor
was clearly written from the perspective of a community which, in the main,
has strong familiarity with the Windows operating system, Windows-based
screen access technology, and Windows conventions. Having read the
article
myself and reviewed some of the responses to it, I would acknowledge that
the article can be said to contain some inaccuracies and erroneous
conclusions. However, the perspective of the author, while not that of a
VoiceOver user, is reflective of the majority of blind computer users who,
today, are familiar with Windows. Clearly, the author of the article was
not aware that there is a very dedicated community of blind people who have
developed a high degree of understanding, competence, and sophistication
with VoiceOver and the Macintosh. The article would have been well served
if the author had been able to talk with some of these people.
This may have been the case when the article was written, but I am
confident
that the voices of the Macintosh and VoiceOver community have been heard
and
are even now being consulted.
Cordially,
Curtis Chong
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prises.com
------------------------------
Message: 16
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 18:33:51 -0500
From: Mike Arrigo <n0oxy at charter.net>
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <16D134DF-761E-42C3-AC2F-AA2F1E6AA737 at charter.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
Well said Kevin. That article in the braille monitor was complete
rubbish. I understand if someone decides it's not for them, that's
their choice. But that article was simply incorrect, saying in many
cases that something cannot be done when in fact it can. I've also
done a complete pod cast on this article, demonstrating the things
which supposedly can't be done.
On Jul 25, 2009, at 12:49 PM, Kevin Fjelsted wrote:
> VoiceOver is absolutely awesome. A superb resource for reading details
> from a community perspective is http://www.lioncourt.com.
> I thhink that the exciting thing about VoiceOver is that the stars are
> aligned for us. 1) Apple is making record profits and is applying
> resources in support of VoiceOver access across there entire product
> line including mobile devices. The fact that the NFB technology center
> chooses to publish inaccuracies and propaganda
> which is so misleading must mean that the existing companies like
> Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to rally resources to
> quash VoiceOver usage. When ever we see established organizations
> becoming defensive it is time to really dig under the covers and ask
> the reasons why. In my opinion every blind person who relies on
> accessibility technology for computers and mobile devices needs to
> look at VoiceOver as well as the other technologies and proactively
> push the envelope so that we can create momentum for transparency. My
> question is, why aren't all of the vendors emulating the approach of
> VoiceOver, which is to have built in accessibility to the device out
> of the box without charging extra? WHen I can pay $190 for a cell
> phone that has built in accessibility I find that amazing compared to
> spending money for a cell phone and then having to turn around and buy
> a 3rd party access solution that in many cases only works half baked.
> Not only do I get a cell phone for $190 but I get all the built in
> apps talking clock, calculator, maps, weather forecasting, text
> messaging, address book management, calendaring including syncing with
> other calendars. For years blind people have taken the position that
> touch screens are the enemy and that we can't use them. Yet the IPhone
> with VoiceOver is totally dependent on the touch screen. I do
> everything with the touch screen look at email, update my calendar,
> make phone calls,.... -Kevin Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 10:26 AM,
> tunecollector<tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> This subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has
>> anyone used
>> it more intensively since then? Is it ready for prime time?
>> What are its
>> drawbacks.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> for gui-talk:
>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Kevin Fjelsted
> B Harris, Inc.
> http://www.bharrisinc.com
> kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
> Phone: 612.424.7333 EX. 301
> Direct: 612.424.7332
>
> _______________________________________________
> gui-talk mailing list
> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> for gui-talk:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/n0oxy%40charter.net
------------------------------
Message: 17
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 16:35:15 -0700
From: "Dean Martineau" <dean at topdotenterprises.com>
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] [Bulk] Voiceover
To: "'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <026401ca0d80$922b32c0$b6819840$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
As I mentioned elsewhere, the whole premise of that article is frlawed.
Just because most blind users use Windows doesn't mean they're good at it
or
that they like it. The article should have taken that fact into account,
but discussed different scenarios in which the Mac and Voice Over might or
might not be a good option for somebody.
Dean
-----Original Message-----
From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of tunecollector
Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 4:01 PM
To: 'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] [Bulk] Voiceover
Probably echoing the sentiment, I would have found the article
uninformative
if it had been written strictly from a Mac user's viewpoint since I have
absolutely no familiarity with a Mac computer. Despite that, I have no
loyalty to a PC over a Mac. I do not consider myself computer savvy and
most likely never will be. I am looking for something for ease of use and
not for maximizing what I can dan do with a computer.
-----Original Message-----
From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Curtis Chong
Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 2:56 PM
To: 'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'
Subject: [Bulk] [gui-talk] Voiceover
On July 25, 2009, Kevin Fjelsted wrote in relevant part:
"The fact that the NFB technology center chooses to publish inaccuracies
and
propaganda which is so misleading must mean that the existing companies
like
Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to rally resources to
quash
VoiceOver usage."
Having managed the International Braille and Technology Center for five
years, I think I can say with some credibility that the Braille Monitor
article which Kevin refers to was not intended to be deliberately
inaccurate. Nor was it intended to (as he says) "quash VoiceOver usage."
The article that was published in the June edition of the Braille Monitor
was clearly written from the perspective of a community which, in the main,
has strong familiarity with the Windows operating system, Windows-based
screen access technology, and Windows conventions. Having read the article
myself and reviewed some of the responses to it, I would acknowledge that
the article can be said to contain some inaccuracies and erroneous
conclusions. However, the perspective of the author, while not that of a
VoiceOver user, is reflective of the majority of blind computer users who,
today, are familiar with Windows. Clearly, the author of the article was
not aware that there is a very dedicated community of blind people who have
developed a high degree of understanding, competence, and sophistication
with VoiceOver and the Macintosh. The article would have been well served
if the author had been able to talk with some of these people.
This may have been the case when the article was written, but I am
confident
that the voices of the Macintosh and VoiceOver community have been heard
and
are even now being consulted.
Cordially,
Curtis Chong
_______________________________________________
gui-talk mailing list
gui-talk at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
gui-talk:
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cglobal.net
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------------------------------
Message: 18
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 18:36:52 -0500
From: Mike Arrigo <n0oxy at charter.net>
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <C25DBAF3-61CC-4E7C-ACD2-5C6673024568 at charter.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
The article is in the June braille monitor, certainly you can read it
if your curious, but the information in it is totally wrong. That's
great that you're considering a mac, I absolutely love mine, I think
you would be very happy with it.
On Jul 25, 2009, at 2:00 PM, albert griffith wrote:
> Hi Kevin, I'm definitely purchasing a new machine in the next couple
> of
> months and I'm seriously considering a Mac. I'd like to read the NFB
> articles of which you speak with all their inaccuracies but I don't
> know
> where to locate them. Can you tell me where to go to read them? I
> don't
> need an exact URL just the general area will do. thanks
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-
> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Kevin Fjelsted
> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 1:50 PM
> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>
> VoiceOver is absolutely awesome. A superb resource for reading details
> from a community perspective is http://www.lioncourt.com.
> I thhink that the exciting thing about VoiceOver is that the stars are
> aligned for us. 1) Apple is making record profits and is applying
> resources in support of VoiceOver access across there entire product
> line including mobile devices. The fact that the NFB technology center
> chooses to publish inaccuracies and propaganda
> which is so misleading must mean that the existing companies like
> Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to rally resources to
> quash VoiceOver usage. When ever we see established organizations
> becoming defensive it is time to really dig under the covers and ask
> the reasons why. In my opinion every blind person who relies on
> accessibility technology for computers and mobile devices needs to
> look at VoiceOver as well as the other technologies and proactively
> push the envelope so that we can create momentum for transparency. My
> question is, why aren't all of the vendors emulating the approach of
> VoiceOver, which is to have built in accessibility to the device out
> of the box without charging extra? WHen I can pay $190 for a cell
> phone that has built in accessibility I find that amazing compared to
> spending money for a cell phone and then having to turn around and buy
> a 3rd party access solution that in many cases only works half baked.
> Not only do I get a cell phone for $190 but I get all the built in
> apps talking clock, calculator, maps, weather forecasting, text
> messaging, address book management, calendaring including syncing with
> other calendars. For years blind people have taken the position that
> touch screens are the enemy and that we can't use them. Yet the IPhone
> with VoiceOver is totally dependent on the touch screen. I do
> everything with the touch screen look at email, update my calendar,
> make phone calls,.... -Kevin Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 10:26 AM,
> tunecollector<tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> This subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has
>> anyone
> used
>> it more intensively since then? Is it ready for prime time?
>> What are
> its
>> drawbacks.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> gui-talk:
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail
> .
> com
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Kevin Fjelsted
> B Harris, Inc.
> http://www.bharrisinc.com
> kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
> Phone: 612.424.7333 EX. 301
> Direct: 612.424.7332
>
> _______________________________________________
> gui-talk mailing list
> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> gui-talk:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/albertgriffith%40s
> bcglobal.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> gui-talk mailing list
> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> for gui-talk:
>
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------------------------------
Message: 19
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 18:40:23 -0500
From: Mike Arrigo <n0oxy at charter.net>
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <AD4A998E-520B-4F10-A7E6-3E6C2350F51B at charter.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
I have also done 9 macintosh pod casts on blindcooltech.com, and pod
cast number 8 is dedicated to demonstrating how wrong this article is.
It's one thing to say the article is wrong, but demonstrating it
leaves no doubt.
On Jul 25, 2009, at 2:55 PM, Kevin Fjelsted wrote:
> The NFB article is located at
> http://tinyurl.com/ndplsk
> I recommend that you also read a review of that article at
> http://tinyurl.com/l2samj
>
> -Kevin
>
> On 7/25/09, albert griffith <albertgriffith at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> Hi Kevin, I'm definitely purchasing a new machine in the next
>> couple of
>> months and I'm seriously considering a Mac. I'd like to read the NFB
>> articles of which you speak with all their inaccuracies but I don't
>> know
>> where to locate them. Can you tell me where to go to read them? I
>> don't
>> need an exact URL just the general area will do. thanks
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-
>> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Kevin Fjelsted
>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 1:50 PM
>> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>>
>> VoiceOver is absolutely awesome. A superb resource for reading
>> details
>> from a community perspective is http://www.lioncourt.com.
>> I thhink that the exciting thing about VoiceOver is that the stars
>> are
>> aligned for us. 1) Apple is making record profits and is applying
>> resources in support of VoiceOver access across there entire product
>> line including mobile devices. The fact that the NFB technology
>> center
>> chooses to publish inaccuracies and propaganda
>> which is so misleading must mean that the existing companies like
>> Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to rally resources
>> to
>> quash VoiceOver usage. When ever we see established organizations
>> becoming defensive it is time to really dig under the covers and ask
>> the reasons why. In my opinion every blind person who relies on
>> accessibility technology for computers and mobile devices needs to
>> look at VoiceOver as well as the other technologies and proactively
>> push the envelope so that we can create momentum for transparency. My
>> question is, why aren't all of the vendors emulating the approach
>> of
>> VoiceOver, which is to have built in accessibility to the device out
>> of the box without charging extra? WHen I can pay $190 for a cell
>> phone that has built in accessibility I find that amazing compared to
>> spending money for a cell phone and then having to turn around and
>> buy
>> a 3rd party access solution that in many cases only works half baked.
>> Not only do I get a cell phone for $190 but I get all the built in
>> apps talking clock, calculator, maps, weather forecasting, text
>> messaging, address book management, calendaring including syncing
>> with
>> other calendars. For years blind people have taken the position that
>> touch screens are the enemy and that we can't use them. Yet the
>> IPhone
>> with VoiceOver is totally dependent on the touch screen. I do
>> everything with the touch screen look at email, update my calendar,
>> make phone calls,.... -Kevin Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 10:26 AM,
>> tunecollector<tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> This subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has
>>> anyone
>> used
>>> it more intensively since then? Is it ready for prime time?
>>> What are
>> its
>>> drawbacks.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> gui-talk mailing list
>>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>> for
>> gui-talk:
>>>
>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail
>> .
>> com
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Kevin Fjelsted
>> B Harris, Inc.
>> http://www.bharrisinc.com
>> kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
>> Phone: 612.424.7333 EX. 301
>> Direct: 612.424.7332
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> gui-talk:
>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/albertgriffith%40s
>> bcglobal.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> gui-talk:
>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> gui-talk mailing list
> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> for gui-talk:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/n0oxy%40charter.net
------------------------------
Message: 20
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 18:48:16 -0500
From: Mike Arrigo <n0oxy at charter.net>
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <838947D6-32EE-403A-BC4E-400ADBA413B8 at charter.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
That was the big mistake of this article, the concept seemed to be,
windows does it this way, and if the mac does it differently, it's a
problem. There are several similarities between the mac and windows,
but expecting the mac to work the exact same way is a recipe for
frustration. In my pod casts on blindcooltech, I try my best to make
comparisons when they're appropriate, but also remind the listener
that it's not windows, and therefore will not behave the same.
On Jul 25, 2009, at 2:24 PM, Ray Foret jr wrote:
> Granted, Voice over is well worth serious consideration; but, Kevin,
> there's
> no need to get unpleasant about it. The NFB's perspective was
> written from
> a Windows users point of view because that's what most blind
> computer users
> are familiar with. Like it or not, this is so. I always hear Voice
> Over
> users say "You can't compare the Mac to Windows.". Fair enough.
> So, in
> that case, why not truly help us Windows users get to know Voice
> Over better
> instead of just criticizing us just because we do what it is human
> nature to
> do; compare one thing to another. I grant you that the Mac is worth
> serious
> consideration; and, If I wasn't still paying for this lap top, I would
> indeed very seriously look at Voice Over. Let me give you an
> example of how
> Voice Over users can be more helpful. In the NFB article, it is
> stated that
> when you press the space bar to check or uncheck items on a web
> page, Voice
> Over does not tell you whether an item is checked or unchecked. I
> believe
> this is true; however, there is another factor. The article then
> goes on to
> incorrectly state that there is no way without fumbling around, to
> determine
> whether an item is checked or not. As I understand it, there is a
> special
> Voice over key command which is used to check or uncheck items on
> web pages.
> When this key stroke is used, Voice over will tell you at once
> whether an
> item is checked or unchecked. Now, it's quite clear to me that the
> fellow
> reviewing Voice Over for the NFB did not know this fact. but, I ask
> you,
> why did not some voice over users help him with the trouble he was
> having?
> Why did the NFB not seek help from Voice Over users? Well, I think
> I can
> answer that one. He wanted to deal with Voice Over from the stand
> point of
> a strictly out of the box experience. IN other words, his logic was
> this.
> "Let me see what I can learn about Voice Over strictly from the help
> and
> what ever documentation I can access on my own.". Fair enough; but,
> let's
> think a bit. How many Windows users do you know who rely just on
> the built
> in help and what documentation they can read on their own? Well, I
> sure
> don't know too many myself. Most Windows users go to one another
> for help
> and we help each other. Why, therefore, did the NFB fellow not seek
> help in
> the same way from Mac users? A fair question I think. Frankly, I am
> perfectly willing to take a look at Voice over, not so much from the
> NFB
> stand point; nor from a Voice Over defense point of view. My look
> will be
> based a bit on both and I will be wanting to get very objective
> information.
> I don't think I can count on either the NFB or Voice Over devotees
> to be
> truly objective; and, therefore, the best strategy I can think of is
> to take
> the best of both and make your own decision.
>
> Sincerely,
> The Constantly BAREFOOTED Ray
>
> "Old friend, what are you looking for? After those many years
> abroad you
> come With images you tended Under foreign skies Far away from your
> own land"
> George Seferis
>
> Phone or Fax::
> +1 (985) 360-3614
> Cell:
> +1 (985) 791-2938
> e-mail:
> rforetjratcomcastdotnet
> Skype Name:
> barefootedray
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kevin Fjelsted" <kfjelsted at gmail.com>
> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 12:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>
>
> VoiceOver is absolutely awesome. A superb resource for reading details
> from a community perspective is http://www.lioncourt.com.
> I thhink that the exciting thing about VoiceOver is that the stars are
> aligned for us. 1) Apple is making record profits and is applying
> resources in support of VoiceOver access across there entire product
> line including mobile devices. The fact that the NFB technology center
> chooses to publish inaccuracies and propaganda
> which is so misleading must mean that the existing companies like
> Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to rally resources to
> quash VoiceOver usage. When ever we see established organizations
> becoming defensive it is time to really dig under the covers and ask
> the reasons why. In my opinion every blind person who relies on
> accessibility technology for computers and mobile devices needs to
> look at VoiceOver as well as the other technologies and proactively
> push the envelope so that we can create momentum for transparency. My
> question is, why aren't all of the vendors emulating the approach of
> VoiceOver, which is to have built in accessibility to the device out
> of the box without charging extra? WHen I can pay $190 for a cell
> phone that has built in accessibility I find that amazing compared to
> spending money for a cell phone and then having to turn around and buy
> a 3rd party access solution that in many cases only works half baked.
> Not only do I get a cell phone for $190 but I get all the built in
> apps talking clock, calculator, maps, weather forecasting, text
> messaging, address book management, calendaring including syncing with
> other calendars. For years blind people have taken the position that
> touch screens are the enemy and that we can't use them. Yet the IPhone
> with VoiceOver is totally dependent on the touch screen. I do
> everything with the touch screen look at email, update my calendar,
> make phone calls,.... -Kevin Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 10:26 AM,
> tunecollector<tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> This subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has
>> anyone
>> used
>> it more intensively since then? Is it ready for prime time? What
>> are its
>> drawbacks.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> gui-talk:
>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Kevin Fjelsted
> B Harris, Inc.
> http://www.bharrisinc.com
> kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
> Phone: 612.424.7333 EX. 301
> Direct: 612.424.7332
>
> _______________________________________________
> gui-talk mailing list
> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> gui-talk:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/rforetjr%40comcast.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> gui-talk mailing list
> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> for gui-talk:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/n0oxy%40charter.net
------------------------------
Message: 21
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 18:55:52 -0500
From: Mike Arrigo <n0oxy at charter.net>
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <276AF8B0-59E1-4456-8883-FAE646FD12FC at charter.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
Hi. By the time you are ready to get your computer, mac o s 10.6 will
probably be out, there are many improvements to voice over in that
release. Am I saying that voice over is perfect? Not at all, there is
always room for improvement. I'd be curious in what way you think
voice over needs to be seasoned. You may want to check out my pod
casts on blind cool tech, many people have found them helpful. On the
windows side of things, I think serotek offers a great product, and
have suggested it to many people who choose to stay with windows.
On Jul 25, 2009, at 4:47 PM, albert griffith wrote:
> Ray, you've nearly mirrored my point of view relative to voiceover.
> I'm
> going to purchase a computer by year's end so I'm reviewing many
> operating
> systems
> With a real critical eye. The screen reader developed by Apple has my
> attention for obvious reasons. Since it's built in I'll save allot
> of cash
> over time if it will perform adequately. My chief concerns are
> availability
> and the accessibility of the programs I most often use. I consider
> myself
> quite tech savvy but I'm finding many of those with experience with
> the
> system are real tech oriented so their need for a clean out-of-box
> experience isn't as important to them. I'm open to any comparative
> appraisals of the two screen readers. If I had to go with an
> operating
> system and screen reader today I'd remove voiceover from my list of
> choices
> because I believe although without much evidence that it needs a
> little
> seasoning. I'm predicting it will work real well on my next machine
> which
> I'll probably buy in 2013 or 14 but I'm not so sure that I'm ready
> to stop
> my evaluations. I'm also considering hooking up with Serotek's mobile
> network. It not only works well with many programs but the price is
> right.
> Any articles you or anyone else could point me too will be
> appreciated. The
> information we gather as list members will help all of us. On one
> level I'm
> frustrated with the number of choices we have but I'm also grateful
> for
> them.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-
> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Ray Foret jr
> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 3:24 PM
> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>
> Granted, Voice over is well worth serious consideration; but, Kevin,
> there's
>
> no need to get unpleasant about it. The NFB's perspective was
> written from
> a Windows users point of view because that's what most blind
> computer users
> are familiar with. Like it or not, this is so. I always hear Voice
> Over
> users say "You can't compare the Mac to Windows.". Fair enough.
> So, in
> that case, why not truly help us Windows users get to know Voice
> Over better
>
> instead of just criticizing us just because we do what it is human
> nature to
>
> do; compare one thing to another. I grant you that the Mac is worth
> serious
>
> consideration; and, If I wasn't still paying for this lap top, I would
> indeed very seriously look at Voice Over. Let me give you an
> example of how
>
> Voice Over users can be more helpful. In the NFB article, it is
> stated that
>
> when you press the space bar to check or uncheck items on a web
> page, Voice
> Over does not tell you whether an item is checked or unchecked. I
> believe
> this is true; however, there is another factor. The article then
> goes on to
>
> incorrectly state that there is no way without fumbling around, to
> determine
>
> whether an item is checked or not. As I understand it, there is a
> special
> Voice over key command which is used to check or uncheck items on
> web pages.
>
> When this key stroke is used, Voice over will tell you at once
> whether an
> item is checked or unchecked. Now, it's quite clear to me that the
> fellow
> reviewing Voice Over for the NFB did not know this fact. but, I ask
> you,
> why did not some voice over users help him with the trouble he was
> having?
> Why did the NFB not seek help from Voice Over users? Well, I think
> I can
> answer that one. He wanted to deal with Voice Over from the stand
> point of
> a strictly out of the box experience. IN other words, his logic was
> this.
> "Let me see what I can learn about Voice Over strictly from the help
> and
> what ever documentation I can access on my own.". Fair enough; but,
> let's
> think a bit. How many Windows users do you know who rely just on
> the built
> in help and what documentation they can read on their own?& Well, I
> sure
> don't know too many myself. Most Windows users go to one another
> for help
> and we help each other. Why, therefore, did the NFB fellow not seek
> help in
>
> the same way from Mac users? A fair question I think. Frankly, I am
> perfectly willing to take a look at Voice over, not so much from the
> NFB
> stand point; nor from a Voice Over defense point of view. My look
> will be
> based a bit on both and I will be wanting to get very objective
> information.
>
> I don't think I can count on either the NFB or Voice Over devotees
> to be
> truly objective; and, therefore, the best strategy I can think of is
> to take
>
> the best of both and make your own decision.
>
> Sincerely,
> The Constantly BAREFOOTED Ray
>
> "Old friend, what are you looking for? After those many years
> abroad you
> come With images you tended Under foreign skies Far away from your
> own land"
> George Seferis
>
> Phone or Fax::
> +1 (985) 360-3614
> Cell:
> +1 (985) 791-2938
> e-mail:
> rforetjratcomcastdotnet
> Skype Name:
> barefootedray
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kevin Fjelsted" <kfjelsted at gmail.com>
> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 12:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>
>
> VoiceOver is absolutely awesome. A superb resource for reading details
> from a community perspective is http://www.lioncourt.com.
> I thhink that the exciting thing about VoiceOver is that the stars are
> aligned for us. 1) Apple is making record profits and is applying
> resources in support of VoiceOver access across there entire product
> line including mobile devices. The fact that the NFB technology center
> chooses to publish inaccuracies and propaganda
> which is so misleading must mean that the existing companies like
> Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to rally resources to
> quash VoiceOver usage. When ever we see established organizations
> becoming defensive it is time to really dig under the covers and ask
> the reasons why. In my opinion every blind person who relies on
> accessibility technology for computers and mobile devices needs to
> look at VoiceOver as well as the other technologies and proactively
> push the envelope so that we can create momentum for transparency. My
> question is, why aren't all of the vendors emulating the approach of
> VoiceOver, which is to have built in accessibility to the device out
> of the box without charging extra? WHen I can pay $190 for a cell
> phone that has built in accessibility I find that amazing compared to
> spending money for a cell phone and then having to turn around and buy
> a 3rd party access solution that in many cases only works half baked.
> Not only do I get a cell phone for $190 but I get all the built in
> apps talking clock, calculator, maps, weather forecasting, text
> messaging, address book management, calendaring including syncing with
> other calendars. For years blind people have taken the position that
> touch screens are the enemy and that we can't use them. Yet the IPhone
> with VoiceOver is totally dependent on the touch screen. I do
> everything with the touch screen look at email, update my calendar,
> make phone calls,.... -Kevin Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 10:26 AM,
> tunecollector<tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> This subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has
>> anyone
>> used
>> it more intensively since then? Is it ready for prime time? What
>> are its
>> drawbacks.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> gui-talk:
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail
> .
> com
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Kevin Fjelsted
> B Harris, Inc.
> http://www.bharrisinc.com
> kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
> Phone: 612.424.7333 EX. 301
> Direct: 612.424.7332
>
> _______________________________________________
> gui-talk mailing list
> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> gui-talk:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/rforetjr%40comcast
> .net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> gui-talk mailing list
> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> gui-talk:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/albertgriffith%40s
> bcglobal.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> gui-talk mailing list
> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> for gui-talk:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/n0oxy%40charter.net
------------------------------
Message: 22
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 19:57:15 -0400
From: Chris G <chris at mysticplace.org>
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <20090725195714.5EC8.6211D45A at mysticplace.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Hi,
The screen reader comes on the Mac as a full product. When you buy a
Mac you press COMMAND-F5 to start VoiceOver.
You can hear Mikes' podcasts where he demonstrates the screen reader in
action. His latest one shows an multi platform instant messaging client
called Adium that works great with VO.
You can find the podcasts at www.blindcooltech.com
Those were the reasons I decided to purchase a Mac and I like it. I
didn't find it hard to use after listening to Mike. The hardest thing
for me was cursor movement, but once I was able to rap my head around
the way the Mac does it, it's not an issue.
Chris
On Sat, 25 Jul 2009 19:19:50 -0400
"albert griffith" <albertgriffith at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Hi Ray, I've yet to read the NFB article but I plan to soon. We'll
benefit
> from all the access points it should illuminate. Do you know if Apple is
> offering their screen reader as a demo anywhere?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Ray Foret jr
> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 3:24 PM
> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>
> Granted, Voice over is well worth serious consideration; but, Kevin,
there's
>
> no need to get unpleasant about it. The NFB's perspective was written
from
> a Windows users point of view because that's what most blind computer
users
> are familiar with. Like it or not, this is so. I always hear Voice
Over
> users say "You can't compare the Mac to Windows.". Fair enough. So, in
> that case, why not truly help us Windows users get to know Voice Over
better
>
> instead of just criticizing us just because we do what it is human
nature to
>
> do; compare one thing to another. I grant you that the Mac is worth
serious
>
> consideration; and, If I wasn't still paying for this lap top, I would
> indeed very seriously look at Voice Over. Let me give you an example of
how
>
> Voice Over users can be more helpful. In the NFB article, it is stated
that
>
> when you press the space bar to check or uncheck items on a web page,
Voice
> Over does not tell you whether an item is checked or unchecked. I
believe
> this is true; however, there is another factor. The article then goes
on to
>
> incorrectly state that there is no way without fumbling around, to
determine
>
> whether an item is checked or not. As I understand it, there is a
special
> Voice over key command which is used to check or uncheck items on web
pages.
>
> When this key stroke is used, Voice over will tell you at once whether
an
> item is checked or unchecked. Now, it's quite clear to me that the
fellow
> reviewing Voice Over for the NFB did not know this fact. but, I ask
you,
> why did not some voice over users help him with the trouble he was
having?
> Why did the NFB not seek help from Voice Over users? Well, I think I
can
> answer that one. He wanted to deal with Voice Over from the stand point
of
> a strictly out of the box experience. IN other words, his logic was
this.
> "Let me see what I can learn about Voice Over strictly from the help and
> what ever documentation I can access on my own.". Fair enough; but,
let's
> think a bit. How many Windows users do you know who rely just on the
built
> in help and what documentation they can read on their own? Well, I sure
> don't know too many myself. Most Windows users go to one another for
help
> and we help each other. Why, therefore, did the NFB fellow not seek
help in
>
> the same way from Mac users? A fair question I think. Frankly, I am
> perfectly willing to take a look at Voice over, not so much from the NFB
> stand point; nor from a Voice Over defense point of view. My look will
be
> based a bit on both and I will be wanting to get very objective
information.
>
> I don't think I can count on either the NFB or Voice Over devotees to be
> truly objective; and, therefore, the best strategy I can think of is to
take
>
> the best of both and make your own decision.
>
> Sincerely,
> The Constantly BAREFOOTED Ray
>
> "Old friend, what are you looking for? After those many years abroad
you
> come With images you tended Under foreign skies Far away from your own
land"
> George Seferis
>
> Phone or Fax::
> +1 (985) 360-3614
> Cell:
> +1 (985) 791-2938
> e-mail:
> rforetjratcomcastdotnet
> Skype Name:
> barefootedray
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kevin Fjelsted" <kfjelsted at gmail.com>
> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 12:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>
>
> VoiceOver is absolutely awesome. A superb resource for reading details
> from a community perspective is http://www.lioncourt.com.
> I thhink that the exciting thing about VoiceOver is that the stars are
> aligned for us. 1) Apple is making record profits and is applying
> resources in support of VoiceOver access across there entire product
> line including mobile devices. The fact that the NFB technology center
> chooses to publish inaccuracies and propaganda
> which is so misleading must mean that the existing companies like
> Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to rally resources to
> quash VoiceOver usage. When ever we see established organizations
> becoming defensive it is time to really dig under the covers and ask
> the reasons why. In my opinion every blind person who relies on
> accessibility technology for computers and mobile devices needs to
> look at VoiceOver as well as the other technologies and proactively
> push the envelope so that we can create momentum for transparency. My
> question is, why aren't all of the vendors emulating the approach of
> VoiceOver, which is to have built in accessibility to the device out
> of the box without charging extra? WHen I can pay $190 for a cell
> phone that has built in accessibility I find that amazing compared to
> spending money for a cell phone and then having to turn around and buy
> a 3rd party access solution that in many cases only works half baked.
> Not only do I get a cell phone for $190 but I get all the built in
> apps talking clock, calculator, maps, weather forecasting, text
> messaging, address book management, calendaring including syncing with
> other calendars. For years blind people have taken the position that
> touch screens are the enemy and that we can't use them. Yet the IPhone
> with VoiceOver is totally dependent on the touch screen. I do
> everything with the touch screen look at email, update my calendar,
> make phone calls,.... -Kevin Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 10:26 AM,
> tunecollector<tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > This subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has
anyone
> > used
> > it more intensively since then? Is it ready for prime time? What are
its
> > drawbacks.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > gui-talk mailing list
> > gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > gui-talk:
> >
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.
> com
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Kevin Fjelsted
> B Harris, Inc.
> http://www.bharrisinc.com
> kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
> Phone: 612.424.7333 EX. 301
> Direct: 612.424.7332
>
> _______________________________________________
> gui-talk mailing list
> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> gui-talk:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/rforetjr%40comcast
> .net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> gui-talk mailing list
> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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------------------------------
Message: 23
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 19:05:15 -0500
From: Mike Arrigo <n0oxy at charter.net>
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <A78D204E-375D-4C33-902F-5741CA386581 at charter.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
Hi. Allow me to answer your question about each type of program. First
the office suite. Microsoft Office is not accessible on the mac,
however there are 2 alternatives. Open Office version 3 for the mac is
accessible with voice over, so is Apple's office suite, i work version
9. Both of these suites will open and save Microsoft Office files. The
word processor that comes with the mac, called text edit, will open
and save Microsoft Word files, even version 2007.
For playing and ripping media, there are several choices. Itunes will
play CDS, as well as rip them to your hard drive. It can also play
streaming media. There are also 2 other players that I know of. Quick
time will play several media types, and there is a plug in you can
install that will allow quick time to play windows media files as well
as windows media streams. Another player worth considering is the vlc
player. This plays windows media as well as .ogg files.
Adobe reader is not needed on the mac, there is a program included
with the mac called preview. This will open pdf files, and you can
start reading right away, no waiting for the document to be prepared
for reading.
For the web, the safari browser works great, and you have access to
much of the same functions such as moving by link heading, etc. There
is also no forms mode to worry about, just move to the control and
start typing, works very well. Let me know if you are concerned about
any other applications.
On Jul 25, 2009, at 6:04 PM, albert griffith wrote:
> Hello Curtis:
> If someone needs to access, Ms. Office, a media player to rip, burn,
> organize and play files along with managing place markers in a wide
> range of
> file types
> will the voiceover work? This person has to access the acrobat
> reader, an
> instant messenger and an
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