[gui-talk] Voiceover

Mike Freeman k7uij at panix.com
Mon Jul 27 02:56:50 UTC 2009 

Those with vision might wel disagree with your assessment that visual 
appeal isn't a good reason not to adhere to standard controls, appealing 
as your sentiment is to we who have limited or no vision. (grin)

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Arrigo" <n0oxy at charter.net>
To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 3:21 PM
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover


Another difference between windows and mac with regard to software is,
in Windows, though there are standards, they are not always followed,
even by Microsoft itself. Using custom, or nonstandard controls is
done without a second thought, though usually, at least from a
functional stand point, there is no need to do this. On the other
hand, doing this on the mac is frowned upon and discouraged, so most
programs use the controls that the mac operating system supplies. And,
unless there is a real need to use something else, and I don't
consider visual appeal a good reason, this is the way it should be.
On Jul 26, 2009, at 2:30 PM, Steve Jacobson wrote:

> Gerald,
>
> The secrecy and tight control that apple tends to keep over software
> development is also what might make it possible
> for them to enforce accessibility in a way that Microsoft can't.
> Some of how this plays out depends upon the level of
> commitment to accessibility that Apple has, and we'll need to see
> what happens over time.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Steve Jacobson
>
> On Sun, 26 Jul 2009 10:28:44 -0400, Gerald Levy wrote:
>
>
>> But Voice Over will never acquire the same level of functionality
>> as JAWS
>> and Window Eyes until Apple changes its corporate culture from one of
>> absolute secrecy and protectiveness to one that's more open and
>> receptive to
>> outside influence like FS and GWM.  Steve Jobs has never shown any
>> inclination to allow outside software developers and Mac users to
>> have any
>> direct influence on his company's products. This is why Apple has
>> never
>> achieved much success in business and government environments, and
>> will
>> always be a minor player in the PC market despite its panache and
>> loyal
>> following.
>
>> Gerald
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 9:30 AM
>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>
>
>>> As always, Steve makes some good points.  I want to bring out a
>>> couple of
>>> them.
>>>
>>> There has been much discussion about Mac versus Windows, and JAWS
>>> and
>>> Window-Eyes versus System Access, and NVDA have also come out.  I
>>> want to
>>> emphasize one thing, that has been hinted at.  That is using a
>>> computer at
>>> work.  The Mac is powerful and interesting, but as a Mac we could
>>> not get
>>> it to work with many of the applications we see regularly at
>>> employment
>>> sites.  We also can't get System Access, and NVDA to work with
>>> many of
>>> these applications as well.  It takes the powerful scripting
>>> capabilities
>>> of JAWS or Window-Eyes.  They are more expensive, in part because
>>> of all
>>> the extra work needed to work with such a wide range of
>>> applications.
>>> They are not perfect either, but they make it possible for many
>>> blind
>>> persons to hold down jobs.  VoiceOver may get there, but it just
>>> hasn't
>>> been long enough for it to develop all the features needed.
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>> At 07:40 AM 7/26/2009, you wrote:
>>>>        In looking at the Braille Monitor article and VoiceOver
>>>> and other
>>>> issues raised, there are a lot of things that
>>>> need to be considered.  The
>>>> article, even with its acknowledged inaccuracies, has a
>>>> perspective that
>>>> should be considered, and could result in more
>>>> of us attaining a better understanding of both environments.  When
>>>> listening to the two
>>>> hour pod cast on this article, I was surprised at the number of
>>>> times that
>>>> the creators noted that a point made by the
>>>> article
>>>> was worth considering.  I also noted occasions when the article
>>>> said
>>>> something was not accessible when it actually
>>>> was, but far from simple.  There were inaccuracies, though, and
>>>> while
>>>> there were useful aspects of the article's
>>>> perspective, the perspective was not clearly explained.  I want
>>>> to lay a
>>>> few thoughts out here in hopes that it provokes
>>>> some reasonable discussion if that is possible.  If we are to truly
>>>> understand and evaluate VoiceOver, we need
>>>> information.
>>>>
>>>> In reading the Braille Monitor article, one should not think of
>>>> it as a
>>>> complete evaluation of VoiceOver, even though that
>>>> is what it implies.  Rather, one should think of it as the
>>>> experiences of
>>>> a Windows user trying to learn the VoiceOver
>>>> software using primarily the documentation that comes with the
>>>> MAC.  A
>>>> Windows user who switches to the MAC should
>>>> take from this article that they need to talk to other MAC users
>>>> and be
>>>> prepared for doing some things differently.  Also,
>>>> anyone looking at VoiceOver should be aware of the fact that
>>>> there will
>>>> soon be a new version of the MAC operating
>>>> system and this could bring with it improvements to VoiceOver.
>>>> However,
>>>> having said that, it is clear that VoiceOver is
>>>> certainly ready for prime time, to answer the original
>>>> questioner, but one
>>>> should take the time before switching to a MAC
>>>> to be sure it will do the specific things one wants done.  This
>>>> is just as
>>>> true if one were to remain in Windows and switch
>>>> screen readers.  If you use a specific piece of software or you do
>>>> something that most people may not do, you need to
>>>> be certain you will be able to do it after you switch, and again,
>>>> I mean
>>>> whether you switch to a MAC or whether you
>>>> switch to a different screen reader..
>>>>
>>>> There are some legitimate concerns with accessibility built into
>>>> the
>>>> operating system as it now stands, but time will tell if it
>>>> works out.  There are also some very significant differences
>>>> between the
>>>> MAC environment and the Windows
>>>> environment that makes accessibility simpler on the MAC than in
>>>> Windows
>>>> that affects the solution in each environment.
>>>> The fact is that one reason that accessibility is not built into
>>>> the
>>>> Windows operating system in the form of a full-featured
>>>> screen reader is that many of us who have had experience in this
>>>> field
>>>> were not convinced that Microsoft would do as
>>>> good a job, especially when prioritizing accessibility to other
>>>> products
>>>> and access to their own products, as would the
>>>> existing screen reader developers.  I still firmly believe that
>>>> having a
>>>> free Windows screen reader with one company
>>>> behind it, in effect forcing the others out of business, would have
>>>> resulted in my not being able to do some of what I've
>>>> been able to do on my job.  It is also my feeling, although
>>>> somewhat
>>>> unsubstantiated, that Microsoft may not have been
>>>> anxious to take on such a task.  According to what I heard a few
>>>> years ago
>>>> from persons working for Apple, the feeling
>>>> is that Apple is in a stronger position than Microsoft to
>>>> encourage or
>>>> even force people developing software for the MAC
>>>> to build in to their software those things which VoiceOver needs to
>>>> function.  This is the case because there are fewer
>>>> development platforms for writing MAC software and Apple has a
>>>> tighter
>>>> relationship with those who want software to run
>>>> on the MAC.  This means that more of what is needed for
>>>> accessibility can
>>>> be put into the software or development tools
>>>> leaving VoiceOver with a better interface to work with.  In
>>>> addition,
>>>> there are a relatively limited number of computer
>>>> configurations with which to deal.  When you buy a MAC, you by an
>>>> apple
>>>> computer with apple's operating system.  This
>>>> is not meant to be critical, just to point out differences.
>>>>
>>>> On the Windows side, when there have been Microsoft computers,
>>>> they have
>>>> never represented a significant market
>>>> share.  There are many variations of computer hardware running
>>>> Windows.
>>>> There are also many different development
>>>> platforms.  Some of us have felt that
>>>> Microsoft should have enforced more accessibility than they have
>>>> done with
>>>> developers, but they have made some
>>>> efforts to do so.  They do not seem to have as tight a hold on
>>>> developers
>>>> as does Apple, though.  As a result, there is
>>>> significantly more for Windows screen readers to have to do.
>>>> With the
>>>> increased use of MSAA, this has
>>>> changed some, though, and it is possible that in years to come
>>>> the two
>>>> environments may look more similar in terms of
>>>> accessibility.  However, you will definitely find that Window-
>>>> Eyes and JFW
>>>> will do a fair job of working with some
>>>> software that less expensive screen readers will not work with.
>>>> I have a
>>>> couple of applications that work seamlessly
>>>> with both Window-Eyes and JFW that did not work with System
>>>> Access or
>>>> NVDA.  We have no way of knowing if there
>>>> would be a way for another screen reader to work in ways that
>>>> might be
>>>> better than Voiceover because it isn't likely
>>>> worth the effort to try to develop such a thing.  If Apple can
>>>> really
>>>> control software development, this won't matter as
>>>> much, though, and they are in a better position to do that given
>>>> the more
>>>> manageable number of players and the fact
>>>> that Apple generally controls the operating system and the
>>>> hardware.  This
>>>> isn't meant to minimize what apple has done,
>>>> and they deserve credit.  It simply means that having VoiceOver
>>>> included
>>>> with the operating system has a better chance
>>>> of working.
>>>>
>>>> So what are the concers with Apple's software?  Well, when Apple
>>>> was very
>>>> strong in schools, blind kids often had to
>>>> use computers that used Windows to be able to do some of the same
>>>> things
>>>> their classmates were doing with the MAC
>>>> because the Mac was not accessible at the time.  In some cases,
>>>> Microsoft
>>>> has made significant gains in school
>>>> districts.  The school my kids attend is very much a Microsoft
>>>> school
>>>> system.  One concern with the budgets that school
>>>> districts have is that there will be pressure for blind kids to
>>>> use MAC's
>>>> and VoiceOver instead of the same equipment
>>>> used by other students  because VoiceOver is included in the
>>>> price and
>>>> saves money.  Whatever is done, we have to
>>>> be certain that kids get the best access they can to educational
>>>> software.
>>>> School districts won't necessarily know that
>>>> Microsoft Word for the MAC doesn't work with VoiceOver for
>>>> example.  In
>>>> fairness, this is due to a large degree to
>>>> Microsoft not conforming to the accessibility guidelines apple
>>>> requires,
>>>> but that doesn't change the results.  I'd like some
>>>> understanding of whether the educational software
>>>> used by most kids that use MACS will work as well with VoiceOver as
>>>> similar software does under Windows.  Let's be
>>>> clear, though, not all educational software works under Windows,
>>>> either,
>>>> and I know that.  It needs to be noted that we
>>>> continue to push
>>>> Microsoft for more, too, and we push the screen reader developers
>>>> as well.
>>>>
>>>> Finally, what about Windows bias?  I frankly think this is a
>>>> distraction
>>>> that is being used by some Mac advocates to not
>>>> try to deal with criticisms.  I know of nobody who seems to love
>>>> windows
>>>> in the way that MAC people seem to love the
>>>> MAC.  This could be well deserved love, I don't know.  I do
>>>> recognize that
>>>> I am biased by features included in screen
>>>> readers who do things based upon fifteen years of trying to give
>>>> this
>>>> market what it wants.  Some of what we don't feel
>>>> we see in VoiceOver has more to do with our existing screen
>>>> readers than
>>>> with Windows.  Much of what we have
>>>> grown used to actually began with the more advanced DOS screen
>>>> readers.
>>>> Still, just because something has been
>>>> done a certain way does not mean it is being done as well as it
>>>> could be.
>>>> Nevertheless, I find it somewhat frustrating
>>>> when I listen to some of the podcasts on this issue to see that
>>>> something
>>>> VoiceOver does not do is portrayed as a
>>>> feature rather than explaining why it might not be possible.  On
>>>> the other
>>>> hand, we have to be careful as Windows users
>>>> not to jump to conclusions.  Some of what Windows screen readers
>>>> must do
>>>> to make software accessible through
>>>> scripting involves manipulating the mouse and simulating mouse
>>>> clicks
>>>> while the MAC and handle some events by
>>>> manipulating the software being run through operating system
>>>> mechanisms.
>>>> Some solutions that we might see as less
>>>> reliable under Windows may in fact be very reliable under the Mac
>>>> operating system and VoiceOver.  We need to realize
>>>> that the TextEdit program is not a text editor as we know NotePad
>>>> to be,
>>>> it is more of a word processor like WordPad
>>>> and perhaps more.  Comparing TextEdit to Microsoft Word as our
>>>> article did
>>>> is not fair either, though.There are probably
>>>> other conclusions to which we have jumped based upon our
>>>> experience in
>>>> Windows, and we need to be open to that.
>>>> However, if VoiceOver does not do something that we have become
>>>> accustomed
>>>> to, an explanation of why it doesn't
>>>> seems more reasonable to me than to have our questions written
>>>> off as a
>>>> Windows bias as has been done on some of
>>>> the Podcasts.
>>>>
>>>> Beyond the Braille Monitor article, we need some real discussion
>>>> and real
>>>> information.  How about some
>>>> constructive discussion so that we can make both the Apple and the
>>>> Microsoft environments work better for us while
>>>> recognizing the efforts that have already been made.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, 25 Jul 2009 14:55:10 -0500, Kevin Fjelsted wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The NFB article is located at
>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/ndplsk
>>>>> I recommend that you also read a review of that article at
>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/l2samj
>>>>
>>>>> -Kevin
>>>>
>>>>> On 7/25/09, albert griffith <albertgriffith at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Kevin, I'm definitely purchasing a new machine in the next
>>>>>> couple
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> months and I'm seriously considering a Mac.  I'd like to read
>>>>>> the NFB
>>>>>> articles of which you speak with all their inaccuracies but I
>>>>>> don't
>>>>>> know
>>>>>> where to locate them.  Can you tell me where to go to read
>>>>>> them?  I
>>>>>> don't
>>>>>> need an exact URL just the general area will do.  thanks
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org 
>>>>>> [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> ]
>>>>>> On
>>>>>> Behalf Of Kevin Fjelsted
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 1:50 PM
>>>>>> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>>>>>>
>>>>>> VoiceOver is absolutely awesome. A superb resource for reading
>>>>>> details
>>>>>> from a community perspective is http://www.lioncourt.com.
>>>>>> I thhink that the exciting thing about VoiceOver is that the
>>>>>> stars are
>>>>>> aligned for us. 1) Apple is making record profits and is applying
>>>>>> resources in support of  VoiceOver access across there entire
>>>>>> product
>>>>>> line including mobile devices. The fact that the NFB technology
>>>>>> center
>>>>>> chooses to publish inaccuracies and propaganda
>>>>>> which is so misleading must mean that the existing companies like
>>>>>> Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to rally
>>>>>> resources to
>>>>>> quash VoiceOver usage. When ever we see established organizations
>>>>>> becoming defensive it is time to really dig under the covers
>>>>>> and ask
>>>>>> the reasons why. In my opinion every blind person who relies on
>>>>>> accessibility technology for computers and mobile devices needs
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> look at VoiceOver as well as the other technologies and
>>>>>> proactively
>>>>>> push the envelope so that we can create momentum for
>>>>>> transparency. My
>>>>>> question is, why aren't  all of the vendors  emulating the
>>>>>> approach of
>>>>>> VoiceOver, which is to have built in accessibility to the
>>>>>> device out
>>>>>> of the box without charging extra? WHen I can pay $190 for a cell
>>>>>> phone that has built in accessibility I find that amazing
>>>>>> compared to
>>>>>> spending money for a cell phone and then having to turn around
>>>>>> and buy
>>>>>> a 3rd party access solution that in many cases only works half
>>>>>> baked.
>>>>>> Not only do I get a cell phone for $190 but I get all the built
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> apps talking clock, calculator, maps, weather forecasting, text
>>>>>> messaging, address book management, calendaring including
>>>>>> syncing with
>>>>>> other calendars. For years blind people have taken the position
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> touch screens are the enemy and that we can't use them. Yet the
>>>>>> IPhone
>>>>>> with VoiceOver is totally dependent on the touch screen. I do
>>>>>> everything with the touch screen look at email, update my
>>>>>> calendar,
>>>>>> make phone calls,....   -Kevin Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 10:26 AM,
>>>>>> tunecollector<tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> This subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has
>>>>>>> anyone
>>>>>> used
>>>>>>> it more intensively since then?  Is it ready for prime
>>>>>>> time?    What
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>> its
>>>>>>> drawbacks.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> gui-talk mailing list
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>>>> .
>>>>>> com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Kevin Fjelsted
>>>>>> B Harris, Inc.
>>>>>> http://www.bharrisinc.com
>>>>>> kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
>>>>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
>>>>>> Phone:   612.424.7333 EX. 301
>>>>>> Direct:  612.424.7332
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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