[gui-talk] Voiceover

[Mike Arrigo]

I would say Alex sounds much better than dectalk, I'm not a dectalk  
fan myself, but I like Alex's voice.
On Jul 26, 2009, at 8:58 AM, Kenlawrence124 at aol.com wrote:

> Hi Ken here.  I know the voiceover screen reader calls it's voice  
> or  at
> least the default Alix.  Someone with sight says it sounds like   
> Dectalk.  Is
> that right?  Hey wouldn't be great if the KNFB reader was  worked in  
> to an
> Iphone?  Also on the subject of a Mac, I don't know if  anyone  
> mentioned it
> in a previous post, but we all have security issues to think  about  
> buying
> computers.  We do pledge to achieve Security for the blind,   
> Shouldn't that
> apply to our computers?  Yeah, there are a lot of spam  sending  
> kooks out
> there Huh?
>
> I pledge to  participate actively in the efforts of the national  
> federation
> of the blind to  achieve equality, opportunity, and security for the  
> blind;
> to support the  policies and programs of the federation; and abide  
> by it's
> constitution.
>
>
> In a message dated 7/26/2009 3:01:29 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> gui-talk-request at nfbnet.org writes:
>
> Send  gui-talk mailing list submissions to
> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>
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> When replying, please  edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of  gui-talk digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re:  Voiceover (Chris G)
> 2. Re: Voiceover (Kevin  Fjelsted)
> 3. Re: Voiceover (albert griffith)
> 4. Re: Voiceover (Ray Foret jr)
> 5. Re: Voiceover (Kevin  Fjelsted)
> 6. Re: [Bulk] Re:  Voiceover  (tunecollector)
> 7. Re: [Bulk] Re: Voiceover (Kevin  Fjelsted)
> 8. Re: Voiceover (James Pepper)
> 9.  Re: Voiceover (albert griffith)
> 10. Voiceover (Curtis  Chong)
> 11. Re: [Bulk]  Voiceover (tunecollector)
> 12.  Re: Voiceover (albert griffith)
> 13. Re: Voiceover (albert  griffith)
> 14. Re: Voiceover (Mike Arrigo)
> 15. Re:  Voiceover (Dean Martineau)
> 16. Re: Voiceover (Mike Arrigo)
> 17. Re: [Bulk]  Voiceover (Dean Martineau)
> 18. Re: Voiceover  (Mike Arrigo)
> 19. Re: Voiceover (Mike Arrigo)
> 20. Re:  Voiceover (Mike Arrigo)
> 21. Re: Voiceover (Mike Arrigo)
> 22. Re: Voiceover (Chris G)
> 23. Re: Voiceover (Mike  Arrigo)
> 24. iPhone Shopping (Kris)
> 25. Re: Voiceover  (Kevin Fjelsted)
> 26. FaceBook and MySpace (Kris)
> 27. Re:  Voiceover (Ray Foret jr)
> 28. Re: iPhone Shopping (Kevin  Fjelsted)
> 29. Re: Voiceover (qubit)
> 30. PS VoiceOver  (qubit)
> 31. Re: PS VoiceOver (Kevin Fjelsted)
> 32. Re:  Voiceover (albert griffith)
> 33. Re: Voiceover (albert  griffith)
> 34. Re: Voiceover (albert griffith)
> 35. Re:  Voiceover (albert griffith)
> 36. Re: Voiceover (Chris G)
> 37. Re: FaceBook and MySpace (Jennifer Aberdeen)
> 38. Re: Voiceover  (albert griffith)
> 39. Re: Voiceover (albert griffith)
> 40.  Re: [Bulk] Re:  Voiceover  (tunecollector)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message:  1
> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 13:41:31 -0400
> From: Chris G  <chris at mysticplace.org>
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
> To:  NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID:  <20090725134130.07B3.6211D45A at mysticplace.org>
> Content-Type:  text/plain;  charset="US-ASCII"
>
> http://www.blindcooltech.com
>
> There are at  least 9 podcasts up there that demonstrate VoiceOver  
> on  the
> Mac.
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, 25 Jul 2009 08:26:32  -0700
> "tunecollector" <tunecollector at sbcglobal.net>  wrote:
>
>> This subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out  but has  
>> anyone
> used
>> it more intensively since then?  Is it ready  for prime time?     
>> What are
> its
>> drawbacks.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing  list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
>> for
> gui-talk:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/chris%40mysticplace.org
>
>
> --  
> The home of the Mystic Place blog and  podcast.
> www.mysticplace.info
> RSS:  feeds.feedburner.com/mysticplacebp
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message:  2
> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 12:49:38 -0500
> From: Kevin Fjelsted  <kfjelsted at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
> To: NFBnet  GUI Talk Mailing List <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID:
> <b6d81870907251049m129e2f35u69f30e8b3a52624b at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type:  text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> VoiceOver is absolutely awesome. A  superb resource for reading  
> details
> from a community perspective is  http://www.lioncourt.com.
> I thhink that the exciting thing about VoiceOver  is that the stars  
> are
> aligned for us. 1) Apple is making record profits and  is applying
> resources in support of  VoiceOver access across there  entire product
> line including mobile devices. The fact that the NFB  technology  
> center
> chooses to publish inaccuracies and propaganda
> which  is so misleading must mean that the existing companies like
> Freedom  Scientific are running scared and trying to rally resources  
> to
> quash  VoiceOver usage. When ever we see established organizations
> becoming  defensive it is time to really dig under the covers and ask
> the reasons  why. In my opinion every blind person who relies on
> accessibility  technology for computers and mobile devices needs to
> look at VoiceOver as  well as the other technologies and proactively
> push the envelope so that we  can create momentum for transparency. My
> question is, why aren't  all  of the vendors  emulating the approach  
> of
> VoiceOver, which is to have  built in accessibility to the device out
> of the box without charging extra?  WHen I can pay $190 for a cell
> phone that has built in accessibility I find  that amazing compared to
> spending money for a cell phone and then having to  turn around and  
> buy
> a 3rd party access solution that in many cases only  works half baked.
> Not only do I get a cell phone for $190 but I get all the  built in
> apps talking clock, calculator, maps, weather forecasting,  text
> messaging, address book management, calendaring including syncing   
> with
> other calendars. For years blind people have taken the position  that
> touch screens are the enemy and that we can't use them. Yet the   
> IPhone
> with VoiceOver is totally dependent on the touch screen. I  do
> everything with the touch screen look at email, update my  calendar,
> make phone calls,....   -Kevin Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at  10:26 AM,
> tunecollector<tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> This subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has  
>> anyone
> used
>> it more intensively since then? ?Is it ready for prime time? ?  ? 
>> What are
> its
>> drawbacks.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing  list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
>> for
> gui-talk:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
>
> --  
> Kevin Fjelsted
> B Harris,  Inc.
> http://www.bharrisinc.com
> kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
> Phone:    612.424.7333 EX. 301
> Direct:   612.424.7332
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message:  3
> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 15:00:20 -0400
> From: "albert griffith"  <albertgriffith at sbcglobal.net>
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk]  Voiceover
> To: "'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'"  <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID:  <006c01ca0d5a$284552d0$78cff870$@net>
> Content-Type: text/plain;   charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Hi Kevin, I'm definitely purchasing a new  machine in the next  
> couple of
> months and I'm seriously considering a  Mac.  I'd like to read the NFB
> articles of which you speak with all  their inaccuracies but I don't  
> know
> where to locate them.  Can you  tell me where to go to read them?  I  
> don't
> need an exact URL just the  general area will do.  thanks
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:  gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk- 
> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf  Of Kevin Fjelsted
> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 1:50 PM
> To: NFBnet GUI  Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>
> VoiceOver is  absolutely awesome. A superb resource for reading  
> details
> from a community  perspective is http://www.lioncourt.com.
> I thhink that the exciting thing  about VoiceOver is that the stars  
> are
> aligned for us. 1) Apple is making  record profits and is applying
> resources in support of  VoiceOver  access across there entire product
> line including mobile devices. The fact  that the NFB technology  
> center
> chooses to publish inaccuracies and  propaganda
> which is so misleading must mean that the existing companies  like
> Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to rally resources   
> to
> quash VoiceOver usage. When ever we see established  organizations
> becoming defensive it is time to really dig under the covers  and ask
> the reasons why. In my opinion every blind person who relies  on
> accessibility technology for computers and mobile devices needs  to
> look at VoiceOver as well as the other technologies and  proactively
> push the envelope so that we can create momentum for  transparency. My
> question is, why aren't  all of the vendors   emulating the approach  
> of
> VoiceOver, which is to have built in  accessibility to the device out
> of the box without charging extra? WHen I  can pay $190 for a cell
> phone that has built in accessibility I find that  amazing compared to
> spending money for a cell phone and then having to turn  around and  
> buy
> a 3rd party access solution that in many cases only works  half baked.
> Not only do I get a cell phone for $190 but I get all the built  in
> apps talking clock, calculator, maps, weather forecasting,  text
> messaging, address book management, calendaring including syncing   
> with
> other calendars. For years blind people have taken the position  that
> touch screens are the enemy and that we can't use them. Yet the   
> IPhone
> with VoiceOver is totally dependent on the touch screen. I  do
> everything with the touch screen look at email, update my  calendar,
> make phone calls,....   -Kevin Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at  10:26 AM,
> tunecollector<tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> This subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has   
>> anyone
> used
>> it more intensively since then? ?Is it ready for prime  time? ? ? 
>> What are
> its
>> drawbacks.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing  list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info   
>> for
> gui-talk:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail 
> .
> com
>>
>
>
>
> --  
> Kevin Fjelsted
> B Harris,  Inc.
> http://www.bharrisinc.com
> kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
> Phone:    612.424.7333 EX. 301
> Direct:   612.424.7332
>
> _______________________________________________
> gui-talk  mailing  list
> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info   
> for
> gui-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/albertgriffith%40s
> bcglobal.net
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message:  4
> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 14:24:12 -0500
> From: "Ray Foret jr"  <rforetjr at comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
> To:  "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID:  <2CED535603A7485C9A04B1E40F7D2F9E at OwnerPC>
> Content-Type:  text/plain;    charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Granted, Voice over is  well worth serious consideration; but, Kevin,
> there's
> no need to get  unpleasant about it.  The NFB's perspective was  
> written
> from
> a  Windows users point of view because that's what most blind computer
> users
> are familiar with.  Like it or not, this is so.  I always hear   
> Voice Over
> users say "You can't compare the Mac to Windows.".  Fair  enough.   
> So, in
> that case, why not truly help us Windows users get to  know Voice Over
> better
> instead of just criticizing us just because we do  what it is human  
> nature
> to
> do; compare one thing to another.  I grant  you that the Mac is worth
> serious
> consideration; and, If I wasn't still  paying for this lap top, I  
> would
> indeed very seriously look at Voice  Over.  Let me give you an  
> example of
> how
> Voice Over users can be more  helpful.  In the NFB article, it is  
> stated
> that
> when you press the  space bar to check or uncheck items on a web page,
> Voice
> Over does not  tell you whether an item is checked or unchecked.  I
> believe
> this is true; however, there is another factor.  The article then   
> goes on
> to
> incorrectly state that there is no way without fumbling around,  to
> determine
> whether an item is checked or not.  As I understand it,  there is a  
> special
> Voice over key command which is used to check or  uncheck items on web
> pages.
> When this key stroke is used, Voice over will  tell you at once  
> whether an
> item is checked or unchecked.  Now, it's  quite clear to me that the  
> fellow
> reviewing Voice Over for the NFB did not  know this fact.  but, I  
> ask you,
> why did not some voice over users  help him with the trouble he was  
> having?
> Why did the NFB not seek help  from Voice Over users?  Well, I think  
> I can
> answer that one.  He  wanted to deal with Voice Over from the stand  
> point
> of
> a strictly out of  the box experience.  IN other words, his logic  
> was this.
> "Let me see  what I can learn about Voice Over strictly from the  
> help and
> what ever  documentation I can access on my own.".  Fair enough;  
> but, let's
>
> think a bit.  How many Windows users do you know who rely just on the
> built
> in help and what documentation they can read on their own?   Well, I  
> sure
> don't know too many myself.  Most Windows users go to  one another  
> for help
> and we help each other.  Why, therefore, did the  NFB fellow not  
> seek help
> in
> the same way from Mac users?  A fair  question I think.  Frankly, I am
> perfectly willing to take a look at  Voice over, not so much from  
> the NFB
> stand point; nor from a Voice Over  defense point of view.  My look  
> will be
> based a bit on both and I  will be wanting to get very objective
> information.
> I don't think I can  count on either the NFB or Voice Over devotees  
> to be
> truly objective; and,  therefore, the best strategy I can think of  
> is to
> take
> the best of both  and make your own decision.
>
> Sincerely,
> The Constantly BAREFOOTED  Ray
>
> "Old friend, what are you looking for?  After those many years   
> abroad you
> come With images you tended Under foreign skies Far away from  your  
> own
> land"
> George Seferis
>
> Phone or Fax::
> +1 (985)  360-3614
> Cell:
> +1 (985)  791-2938
> e-mail:
> rforetjratcomcastdotnet
> Skype  Name:
> barefootedray
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kevin  Fjelsted" <kfjelsted at gmail.com>
> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List"  <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 12:49  PM
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>
>
> VoiceOver is absolutely  awesome. A superb resource for reading  
> details
> from a community perspective  is http://www.lioncourt.com.
> I thhink that the exciting thing about  VoiceOver is that the stars  
> are
> aligned for us. 1) Apple is making record  profits and is applying
> resources in support of  VoiceOver access  across there entire product
> line including mobile devices. The fact that  the NFB technology  
> center
> chooses to publish inaccuracies and  propaganda
> which is so misleading must mean that the existing companies  like
> Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to rally resources   
> to
> quash VoiceOver usage. When ever we see established  organizations
> becoming defensive it is time to really dig under the covers  and ask
> the reasons why. In my opinion every blind person who relies  on
> accessibility technology for computers and mobile devices needs  to
> look at VoiceOver as well as the other technologies and  proactively
> push the envelope so that we can create momentum for  transparency. My
> question is, why aren't  all of the vendors   emulating the approach  
> of
> VoiceOver, which is to have built in  accessibility to the device out
> of the box without charging extra? WHen I  can pay $190 for a cell
> phone that has built in accessibility I find that  amazing compared to
> spending money for a cell phone and then having to turn  around and  
> buy
> a 3rd party access solution that in many cases only works  half baked.
> Not only do I get a cell phone for $190 but I get all the built  in
> apps talking clock, calculator, maps, weather forecasting,  text
> messaging, address book management, calendaring including syncing   
> with
> other calendars. For years blind people have taken the position  that
> touch screens are the enemy and that we can't use them. Yet the   
> IPhone
> with VoiceOver is totally dependent on the touch screen. I  do
> everything with the touch screen look at email, update my  calendar,
> make phone calls,....   -Kevin Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at  10:26 AM,
> tunecollector<tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> This subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has  
>> anyone
>> used
>> it more intensively since then? Is it ready for prime  time? What  
>> are its
>> drawbacks.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing  list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
>> for
>> gui-talk:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
>
> --  
> Kevin Fjelsted
> B Harris,  Inc.
> http://www.bharrisinc.com
> kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
> Phone:    612.424.7333 EX. 301
> Direct:   612.424.7332
>
> _______________________________________________
> gui-talk  mailing  list
> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> gui-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/rforetjr%40comcast
> .net
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message:  5
> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 14:55:10 -0500
> From: Kevin Fjelsted  <kfjelsted at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
> To: NFBnet  GUI Talk Mailing List <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID:
> <b6d81870907251255x12cf6e9ds28d3886bab4b8f22 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type:  text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> The NFB article is located  at
> http://tinyurl.com/ndplsk
> I recommend that you also read a review of  that article at
> http://tinyurl.com/l2samj
>
> -Kevin
>
> On 7/25/09,  albert griffith <albertgriffith at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> Hi Kevin,  I'm definitely purchasing a new machine in the next  
>> couple of
>> months  and I'm seriously considering a Mac.  I'd like to read the  
>> NFB
>> articles of which you speak with all their inaccuracies but I  
>> don't  know
>> where to locate them.  Can you tell me where to go to read  them?   
>> I don't
>> need an exact URL just the general area will  do.  thanks
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From:  gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org 
>> ] On
>> Behalf Of Kevin Fjelsted
>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 1:50 PM
>> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk]  Voiceover
>>
>> VoiceOver is absolutely awesome. A superb resource  for reading  
>> details
>> from a community perspective is  http://www.lioncourt.com.
>> I thhink that the exciting thing about  VoiceOver is that the stars  
>> are
>> aligned for us. 1) Apple is making  record profits and is applying
>> resources in support of  VoiceOver  access across there entire  
>> product
>> line including mobile devices. The  fact that the NFB technology  
>> center
>> chooses to publish inaccuracies  and propaganda
>> which is so misleading must mean that the existing  companies like
>> Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to  rally  
>> resources to
>> quash VoiceOver usage. When ever we see established  organizations
>> becoming defensive it is time to really dig under the  covers and ask
>> the reasons why. In my opinion every blind person who  relies on
>> accessibility technology for computers and mobile devices  needs to
>> look at VoiceOver as well as the other technologies and  proactively
>> push the envelope so that we can create momentum for  transparency.  
>> My
>> question is, why aren't  all of the  vendors  emulating the  
>> approach of
>> VoiceOver, which is to have  built in accessibility to the device out
>> of the box without charging  extra? WHen I can pay $190 for a cell
>> phone that has built in  accessibility I find that amazing compared  
>> to
>> spending money for a  cell phone and then having to turn around and  
>> buy
>> a 3rd party access  solution that in many cases only works half  
>> baked.
>> Not only do I get a  cell phone for $190 but I get all the built in
>> apps talking clock,  calculator, maps, weather forecasting, text
>> messaging, address book  management, calendaring including syncing  
>> with
>> other calendars. For  years blind people have taken the position that
>> touch screens are the  enemy and that we can't use them. Yet the  
>> IPhone
>> with VoiceOver is  totally dependent on the touch screen. I do
>> everything with the touch  screen look at email, update my calendar,
>> make phone  calls,....   -Kevin Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 10:26 AM,
>> tunecollector<tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> This  subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has  
>>> anyone
>> used
>>> it more intensively since then?  Is it ready for prime  time?     
>>> What are
>> its
>>> drawbacks.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> gui-talk mailing  list
>>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
>>> for
>> gui-talk:
>>>
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail 
> .
>> com
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Kevin  Fjelsted
>> B Harris, Inc.
>> http://www.bharrisinc.com
>> kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
>> Phone:    612.424.7333 EX. 301
>> Direct:  612.424.7332
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing  list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
>> for
>> gui-talk:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/albertgriffith%40s
>> bcglobal.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing  list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
>> for
>> gui-talk:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message:  6
> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 13:19:57 -0700
> From: "tunecollector"  <tunecollector at sbcglobal.net>
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] [Bulk]  Re:  Voiceover
> To: "'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'"  <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID:  <0EBFDABF6BC641BBBDEFDB90CF765E3B at computer>
> Content-Type:  text/plain;    charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Is there a Voiceover  users list?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:  gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk- 
> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf  Of Kevin Fjelsted
> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 10:50 AM
> To: NFBnet GUI  Talk Mailing List
> Subject: [Bulk] Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>
> VoiceOver  is absolutely awesome. A superb resource for reading  
> details
> from a  community perspective is http://www.lioncourt.com.
> I thhink that the  exciting thing about VoiceOver is that the stars  
> are
> aligned for us. 1)  Apple is making record profits and is applying
> resources in support  of  VoiceOver access across there entire product
> line including mobile  devices. The fact that the NFB technology  
> center
> chooses to publish  inaccuracies and propaganda
> which is so misleading must mean that the  existing companies like
> Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to  rally resources  
> to
> quash VoiceOver usage. When ever we see established  organizations
> becoming defensive it is time to really dig under the covers  and ask
> the reasons why. In my opinion every blind person who relies  on
> accessibility technology for computers and mobile devices needs  to
> look at VoiceOver as well as the other technologies and  proactively
> push the envelope so that we can create momentum for  transparency. My
> question is, why aren't  all of the vendors   emulating the approach  
> of
> VoiceOver, which is to have built in  accessibility to the device out
> of the box without charging extra? WHen I  can pay $190 for a cell
> phone that has built in accessibility I find that  amazing compared to
> spending money for a cell phone and then having to turn  around and  
> buy
> a 3rd party access solution that in many cases only works  half baked.
> Not only do I get a cell phone for $190 but I get all the built  in
> apps talking clock, calculator, maps, weather forecasting,  text
> messaging, address book management, calendaring including syncing   
> with
> other calendars. For years blind people have taken the position  that
> touch screens are the enemy and that we can't use them. Yet the   
> IPhone
> with VoiceOver is totally dependent on the touch screen. I  do
> everything with the touch screen look at email, update my  calendar,
> make phone calls,....   -Kevin Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at  10:26 AM,
> tunecollector<tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> This subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has   
>> anyone
> used
>> it more intensively since then? ?Is it ready for prime  time? ? ? 
>> What are
> its
>> drawbacks.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing  list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info   
>> for
> gui-talk:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail 
> .
> com
>>
>
>
>
> --  
> Kevin Fjelsted
> B Harris,  Inc.
> http://www.bharrisinc.com
> kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
> Phone:    612.424.7333 EX. 301
> Direct:   612.424.7332
>
> _______________________________________________
> gui-talk  mailing  list
> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info   
> for
> gui-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/tunecollector%40sb
> cglobal.net
>
>
> __________  Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
> signature
> database  4277 (20090725) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32  Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
> __________ Information  from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
> signature
> database 4277  (20090725) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32  Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message:  7
> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 16:30:23 -0500
> From: Kevin Fjelsted  <kfjelsted at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] [Bulk] Re:  Voiceover
> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List  <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID:
> <b6d81870907251430s2cd7523ck3dbf8232797f362a at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type:  text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> There are two excellent groups.
> For  VoiceOver on the Mac join the  group
> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries
> For VoiceOver on the  IPhone join the  group
> http://groups.google.com/group/viphone
>
> -Kevin
>
>
> On  7/25/09, tunecollector <tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> Is  there a Voiceover users list?
>>
>> -----Original  Message-----
>> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org  [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org 
>> ] On
>> Behalf Of Kevin  Fjelsted
>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 10:50 AM
>> To: NFBnet GUI  Talk Mailing List
>> Subject: [Bulk] Re: [gui-talk]  Voiceover
>>
>> VoiceOver is absolutely awesome. A superb resource  for reading  
>> details
>> from a community perspective is  http://www.lioncourt.com.
>> I thhink that the exciting thing about  VoiceOver is that the stars  
>> are
>> aligned for us. 1) Apple is making  record profits and is applying
>> resources in support of  VoiceOver  access across there entire  
>> product
>> line including mobile devices. The  fact that the NFB technology  
>> center
>> chooses to publish inaccuracies  and propaganda
>> which is so misleading must mean that the existing  companies like
>> Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to  rally  
>> resources to
>> quash VoiceOver usage. When ever we see established  organizations
>> becoming defensive it is time to really dig under the  covers and ask
>> the reasons why. In my opinion every blind person who  relies on
>> accessibility technology for computers and mobile devices  needs to
>> look at VoiceOver as well as the other technologies and  proactively
>> push the envelope so that we can create momentum for  transparency.  
>> My
>> question is, why aren't  all of the  vendors  emulating the  
>> approach of
>> VoiceOver, which is to have  built in accessibility to the device out
>> of the box without charging  extra? WHen I can pay $190 for a cell
>> phone that has built in  accessibility I find that amazing compared  
>> to
>> spending money for a  cell phone and then having to turn around and  
>> buy
>> a 3rd party access  solution that in many cases only works half  
>> baked.
>> Not only do I get a  cell phone for $190 but I get all the built in
>> apps talking clock,  calculator, maps, weather forecasting, text
>> messaging, address book  management, calendaring including syncing  
>> with
>> other calendars. For  years blind people have taken the position that
>> touch screens are the  enemy and that we can't use them. Yet the  
>> IPhone
>> with VoiceOver is  totally dependent on the touch screen. I do
>> everything with the touch  screen look at email, update my calendar,
>> make phone  calls,....   -Kevin Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 10:26 AM,
>> tunecollector<tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> This  subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has  
>>> anyone
>> used
>>> it more intensively since then?  Is it ready for prime  time?     
>>> What are
>> its
>>> drawbacks.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> gui-talk mailing  list
>>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
>>> for
>> gui-talk:
>>>
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail 
> .
>> com
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Kevin  Fjelsted
>> B Harris, Inc.
>> http://www.bharrisinc.com
>> kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
>> Phone:    612.424.7333 EX. 301
>> Direct:  612.424.7332
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing  list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
>> for
>> gui-talk:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/tunecollector%40sb
>> cglobal.net
>>
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32  Antivirus, version of virus
> signature
>> database 4277 (20090725)  __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32  Antivirus.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
> signature
>> database 4277 (20090725) __________
>>
>> The  message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing  list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
>> for
>> gui-talk:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> --  
> Kevin Fjelsted
> B Harris,  Inc.
> http://www.bharrisinc.com
> kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
> Phone:    612.424.7333 EX. 301
> Direct:   612.424.7332
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message:  8
> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 16:39:46 -0500
> From: James Pepper  <b75205 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
> To: NFBnet  GUI Talk Mailing List <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID:
> <fe5b78280907251439u26b3c28v77c0a946a618f9a6 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type:  text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Here is the AFB Tech, the American  Foundation for the Blind's  
> Technology
> Center's review of Voice Over.   I highly recommend you check into  
> the AFB
> Tech Site because they test  everything in their West Virginia   
> facility.
> http://www.afb.org/afbpress/pub.asp?DocID=aw090603
>
> Just  note that in the past Apple has been very vocal against the AFB
> because
> in  the past you had to select text on the screen to read it and the  
> folks
> at
> AFB tech pointed out that the blind could not see the screen to  
> select  the
> text.
>
> Here is a link to the braille version of the  article:
>
> http://www.afb.org/afbpress/Braille.asp?DocID=aw090603&PageTitle=An+Evaluati
> on+of+VoiceOver%2C+the+Macintosh+Screen+Reader+%2D+AccessWorld%AE+%2D 
> +Novemb
> er+2008
>
> I  would recommend staying with the PC environment because most
> accessibility
> was developed on that system and especially when you are  dealing with
> Microsoft Office you will find that the mac versions do not  have  
> all the
> features of the PC versions.  I know that will cause a  lot of chaos  
> here
> but
> it is a problem.  Microsoft is the company that  is focusing on
> accessibility
> and especially on the PC, they are fed up with  the way things are  
> going now
> and with their new ARIA standards, I would  recommend staying on the  
> PC
> bandwagon.
>
> James  Pepper
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date:  Sat, 25 Jul 2009 17:47:30 -0400
> From: "albert griffith"  <albertgriffith at sbcglobal.net>
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk]  Voiceover
> To: "'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'"  <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID:  <000401ca0d71$849fc850$8ddf58f0$@net>
> Content-Type: text/plain;   charset="us-ascii"
>
> Ray, you've nearly mirrored my point of view  relative to  
> voiceover.  I'm
> going to purchase a computer by year's end  so I'm reviewing many  
> operating
> systems
> With a real critical eye.   The screen reader developed by Apple has  
> my
> attention for obvious  reasons.  Since it's built in I'll save allot  
> of cash
> over time if it  will perform adequately.  My chief concerns are
> availability
> and the  accessibility of the programs I most often use.  I  
> consider  myself
> quite tech savvy but I'm finding many of those with experience with   
> the
> system are real tech oriented so their need for a clean  out-of-box
> experience isn't as important to them.  I'm open to any  comparative
> appraisals of the two screen readers.  If I had to go with  an  
> operating
> system and screen reader today I'd remove voiceover from my  list of  
> choices
> because I believe although without much evidence that it  needs a  
> little
> seasoning.  I'm predicting it will work real well on my  next  
> machine which
> I'll probably buy in 2013 or 14 but I'm not so sure that  I'm ready  
> to stop
> my evaluations.  I'm also considering hooking up  with Serotek's  
> mobile
> network.  It not only works well with many  programs but the price  
> is right.
> Any articles you or anyone else could  point me too will be  
> appreciated.
> The
> information we gather as list  members will help all of us. On one  
> level I'm
> frustrated with the number of  choices we have but I'm also grateful  
> for
> them.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org  [mailto:gui-talk- 
> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Ray Foret jr
> Sent:  Saturday, July 25, 2009 3:24 PM
> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing  List
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>
> Granted, Voice over is well  worth serious consideration; but, Kevin,
> there's
>
> no need to get  unpleasant about it.  The NFB's perspective was  
> written
> from
> a  Windows users point of view because that's what most blind computer
> users
> are familiar with.  Like it or not, this is so.  I always hear   
> Voice Over
> users say "You can't compare the Mac to Windows.".  Fair  enough.   
> So, in
> that case, why not truly help us Windows users get to  know Voice Over
> better
>
> instead of just criticizing us just because we  do what it is human  
> nature
> to
>
> do; compare one thing to another.  I  grant you that the Mac is worth
> serious
>
> consideration; and, If I wasn't  still paying for this lap top, I  
> would
> indeed very seriously look at Voice  Over.  Let me give you an  
> example of
> how
>
> Voice Over users can be  more helpful.  In the NFB article, it is  
> stated
> that
>
> when you  press the space bar to check or uncheck items on a web page,
> Voice
> Over  does not tell you whether an item is checked or unchecked.  I
> believe
> this is true; however, there is another factor.  The article  then  
> goes on
> to
>
> incorrectly state that there is no way without fumbling  around, to
> determine
>
> whether an item is checked or not.  As I  understand it, there is a  
> special
> Voice over key command which is used to  check or uncheck items on web
> pages.
>
> When this key stroke is used,  Voice over will tell you at once  
> whether an
> item is checked or  unchecked.  Now, it's quite clear to me that the  
> fellow
> reviewing  Voice Over for the NFB did not know this fact.  but, I  
> ask you,
> why  did not some voice over users help him with the trouble he was  
> having?
> Why  did the NFB not seek help from Voice Over users?  Well, I think  
> I can
> answer that one.  He wanted to deal with Voice Over from the stand   
> point
> of
> a strictly out of the box experience.  IN other words, his  logic  
> was this.
> "Let me see what I can learn about Voice Over strictly  from the  
> help and
> what ever documentation I can access on my own.".   Fair enough;  
> but, let's
> think a bit.  How many Windows users do you  know who rely just on the
> built
> in help and what documentation they can  read on their own?  Well, I  
> sure
> don't know too many myself.   Most Windows users go to one another  
> for help
> and we help each  other.  Why, therefore, did the NFB fellow not  
> seek help
> in
>
> the  same way from Mac users?  A fair question I think.  Frankly, I am
> perfectly willing to take a look at Voice over, not so much from the  
> NFB
> stand point; nor from a Voice Over defense point of view.  My look   
> will be
> based a bit on both and I will be wanting to get very objective
> information.
>
> I don't think I can count on either the NFB or Voice Over  devotees  
> to be
> truly objective; and, therefore, the best strategy I can  think of  
> is to
> take
>
> the best of both and make your own  decision.
>
> Sincerely,
> The Constantly BAREFOOTED Ray
>
> "Old  friend, what are you looking for?  After those many years  
> abroad you
> come With images you tended Under foreign skies Far away from your own
> land"
> George Seferis
>
> Phone or Fax::
> +1 (985)  360-3614
> Cell:
> +1 (985)  791-2938
> e-mail:
> rforetjratcomcastdotnet
> Skype  Name:
> barefootedray
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kevin  Fjelsted" <kfjelsted at gmail.com>
> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List"  <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 12:49  PM
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>
>
> VoiceOver is absolutely  awesome. A superb resource for reading  
> details
> from a community perspective  is http://www.lioncourt.com.
> I thhink that the exciting thing about  VoiceOver is that the stars  
> are
> aligned for us. 1) Apple is making record  profits and is applying
> resources in support of  VoiceOver access  across there entire product
> line including mobile devices. The fact that  the NFB technology  
> center
> chooses to publish inaccuracies and  propaganda
> which is so misleading must mean that the existing companies  like
> Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to rally resources   
> to
> quash VoiceOver usage. When ever we see established  organizations
> becoming defensive it is time to really dig under the covers  and ask
> the reasons why. In my opinion every blind person who relies  on
> accessibility technology for computers and mobile devices needs  to
> look at VoiceOver as well as the other technologies and  proactively
> push the envelope so that we can create momentum for  transparency. My
> question is, why aren't  all of the vendors   emulating the approach  
> of
> VoiceOver, which is to have built in  accessibility to the device out
> of the box without charging extra? WHen I  can pay $190 for a cell
> phone that has built in accessibility I find that  amazing compared to
> spending money for a cell phone and then having to turn  around and  
> buy
> a 3rd party access solution that in many cases only works  half baked.
> Not only do I get a cell phone for $190 but I get all the built  in
> apps talking clock, calculator, maps, weather forecasting,  text
> messaging, address book management, calendaring including syncing   
> with
> other calendars. For years blind people have taken the position  that
> touch screens are the enemy and that we can't use them. Yet the   
> IPhone
> with VoiceOver is totally dependent on the touch screen. I  do
> everything with the touch screen look at email, update my  calendar,
> make phone calls,....   -Kevin Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at  10:26 AM,
> tunecollector<tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> This subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has  
>> anyone
>> used
>> it more intensively since then? Is it ready for prime  time? What  
>> are its
>> drawbacks.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing  list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
>> for
>> gui-talk:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail 
> .
> com
>>
>
>
>
> --  
> Kevin Fjelsted
> B Harris,  Inc.
> http://www.bharrisinc.com
> kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
> Phone:    612.424.7333 EX. 301
> Direct:   612.424.7332
>
> _______________________________________________
> gui-talk  mailing  list
> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> gui-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/rforetjr%40comcast
> .net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> gui-talk  mailing  list
> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info   
> for
> gui-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/albertgriffith%40s
> bcglobal.net
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message:  10
> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 16:55:51 -0500
> From: "Curtis Chong"  <curtischong at earthlink.net>
> Subject: [gui-talk] Voiceover
> To:  "'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID:  <000001ca0d72$add1a170$0974e450$@net>
> Content-Type: text/plain;   charset="us-ascii"
>
> On July 25, 2009, Kevin Fjelsted wrote in  relevant part:
>
> "The fact that the NFB technology center chooses to  publish  
> inaccuracies
> and
> propaganda which is so misleading must mean that  the existing  
> companies
> like
> Freedom Scientific are running scared and  trying to rally resources  
> to
> quash
> VoiceOver usage."
>
> Having managed  the International Braille and Technology Center for  
> five
> years, I think I  can say with some credibility that the Braille  
> Monitor
> article which Kevin  refers to was not intended to be deliberately
> inaccurate.  Nor was it  intended to (as he says) "quash VoiceOver  
> usage."
>
> The article that was  published in the June edition of the Braille  
> Monitor
> was clearly written  from the perspective of a community which, in  
> the main,
> has strong  familiarity with the Windows operating system, Windows- 
> based
> screen access  technology, and Windows conventions.  Having read the  
> article
> myself  and reviewed some of the responses to it, I would  
> acknowledge that
> the  article can be said to contain some inaccuracies and  erroneous
> conclusions.  However, the perspective of the author, while  not  
> that of a
> VoiceOver user, is reflective of the majority of blind  computer  
> users who,
> today, are familiar with Windows.  Clearly, the  author of the  
> article was
> not aware that there is a very dedicated  community of blind people  
> who have
> developed a high degree of  understanding, competence, and  
> sophistication
> with VoiceOver and the  Macintosh.  The article would have been well  
> served
> if the author had  been able to talk with some of these people.
>
> This may have been the  case when the article was written, but I am
> confident
> that the voices of  the Macintosh and VoiceOver community have been  
> heard
> and
> are even now  being consulted.
>
> Cordially,
>
> Curtis  Chong
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message:  11
> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 16:01:26 -0700
> From: "tunecollector"  <tunecollector at sbcglobal.net>
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] [Bulk]   Voiceover
> To: "'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'"  <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID:  <80DD6C7C917F4D73A373EE3BC4B6BC66 at computer>
> Content-Type:  text/plain;    charset="us-ascii"
>
> Probably echoing the  sentiment, I would have found the article
> uninformative
> if it had been  written strictly from a Mac user's viewpoint since I  
> have
> absolutely no  familiarity with a Mac computer.  Despite that, I  
> have no
> loyalty to a  PC over a Mac.  I do not consider myself computer  
> savvy and
> most  likely never will be.  I am looking for something for ease of  
> use  and
> not for maximizing what I can dan do with a  computer.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:  gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk- 
> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf  Of Curtis Chong
> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 2:56 PM
> To: 'NFBnet GUI  Talk Mailing List'
> Subject: [Bulk] [gui-talk] Voiceover
>
> On July 25,  2009, Kevin Fjelsted wrote in relevant part:
>
> "The fact that the NFB  technology center chooses to publish  
> inaccuracies
> and
> propaganda which is  so misleading must mean that the existing  
> companies
> like
> Freedom Scientific  are running scared and trying to rally resources  
> to
> quash
> VoiceOver  usage."
>
> Having managed the International Braille and Technology Center  for  
> five
> years, I think I can say with some credibility that the Braille   
> Monitor
> article which Kevin refers to was not intended to be  deliberately
> inaccurate.  Nor was it intended to (as he says) "quash  VoiceOver  
> usage."
>
> The article that was published in the June edition of  the Braille  
> Monitor
> was clearly written from the perspective of a community  which, in  
> the main,
> has strong familiarity with the Windows operating  system, Windows- 
> based
> screen access technology, and Windows  conventions.  Having read the  
> article
> myself and reviewed some of the  responses to it, I would  
> acknowledge that
> the article can be said to  contain some inaccuracies and erroneous
> conclusions.  However, the  perspective of the author, while not  
> that of a
> VoiceOver user, is  reflective of the majority of blind computer  
> users who,
> today, are familiar  with Windows.  Clearly, the author of the  
> article was
> not aware that  there is a very dedicated community of blind people  
> who have
> developed a  high degree of understanding, competence, and  
> sophistication
> with VoiceOver  and the Macintosh.  The article would have been well  
> served
> if the  author had been able to talk with some of these people.
>
> This may have  been the case when the article was written, but I am
> confident
> that the  voices of the Macintosh and VoiceOver community have been  
> heard
> and
> are  even now being consulted.
>
> Cordially,
>
> Curtis  Chong
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> gui-talk  mailing  list
> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info   
> for
> gui-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/tunecollector%40sb
> cglobal.net
>
>
> __________  Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
> signature
> database  4277 (20090725) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32  Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
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> signature
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>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32  Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message:  12
> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 19:04:42 -0400
> From: "albert griffith"  <albertgriffith at sbcglobal.net>
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk]  Voiceover
> To: "'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'"  <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID:  <001301ca0d7c$4c9e50b0$e5daf210$@net>
> Content-Type: text/plain;   charset="us-ascii"
>
> Hello Curtis:
> If someone needs to access,  Ms. Office, a media player to rip, burn,
> organize and play files along with  managing place markers in a wide  
> range
> of
> file types
> will the voiceover  work? This person has to access the acrobat  
> reader, an
> instant messenger  and an internet browser.
> -----Original Message-----
> From:  gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk- 
> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf  Of Curtis Chong
> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 5:56 PM
> To: 'NFBnet GUI  Talk Mailing List'
> Subject: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>
> On July 25, 2009,  Kevin Fjelsted wrote in relevant part:
>
> "The fact that the NFB  technology center chooses to publish  
> inaccuracies
> and
> propaganda which is  so misleading must mean that the existing  
> companies
> like
> Freedom Scientific  are running scared and trying to rally resources  
> to
> quash
> VoiceOver  usage."
>
> Having managed the International Braille and Technology Center  for  
> five
> years, I think I can say with some credibility that the Braille   
> Monitor
> article which Kevin refers to was not intended to be  deliberately
> inaccurate.  Nor was it intended to (as he says) "quash  VoiceOver  
> usage."
>
> The article that was published in the June edition of  the Braille  
> Monitor
> was clearly written from the perspective of a community  which, in  
> the main,
> has strong familiarity with the Windows operating  system, Windows- 
> based
> screen access technology, and Windows  conventions.  Having read the  
> article
> myself and reviewed some of the  responses to it, I would  
> acknowledge that
> the article can be said to  contain some inaccuracies and erroneous
> conclusions.  However, the  perspective of the author, while not  
> that of a
> VoiceOver user, is  reflective of the majority of blind computer  
> users who,
> today, are familiar  with Windows.  Clearly, the author of the  
> article was
> not aware that  there is a very dedicated community of blind people  
> who have
> developed a  high degree of understanding, competence, and  
> sophistication
> with VoiceOver  and the Macintosh.  The article would have been well  
> served
> if the  author had been able to talk with some of these people.
>
> This may have  been the case when the article was written, but I am
> confident
> that the  voices of the Macintosh and VoiceOver community have been  
> heard
> and
> are  even now being consulted.
>
> Cordially,
>
> Curtis  Chong
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> gui-talk  mailing  list
> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info   
> for
> gui-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/albertgriffith%40s
> bcglobal.net
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message:  13
> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 19:19:50 -0400
> From: "albert griffith"  <albertgriffith at sbcglobal.net>
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk]  Voiceover
> To: "'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'"  <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID:  <001a01ca0d7e$6933e710$3b9bb530$@net>
> Content-Type: text/plain;   charset="us-ascii"
>
> Hi Ray,  I've yet to read the NFB  article but I plan to soon.  We'll
> benefit
> from all the access points  it should illuminate. Do you know if  
> Apple is
> offering their screen reader  as a demo anywhere?
>
> -----Original  Message-----
> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org  [mailto:gui-talk- 
> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Ray Foret jr
> Sent:  Saturday, July 25, 2009 3:24 PM
> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing  List
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>
> Granted, Voice over is well  worth serious consideration; but, Kevin,
> there's
>
> no need to get  unpleasant about it.  The NFB's perspective was  
> written
> from
> a  Windows users point of view because that's what most blind computer
> users
> are familiar with.  Like it or not, this is so.  I always hear   
> Voice Over
> users say "You can't compare the Mac to Windows.".  Fair  enough.   
> So, in
> that case, why not truly help us Windows users get to  know Voice Over
> better
>
> instead of just criticizing us just because we  do what it is human  
> nature
> to
>
> do; compare one thing to another.  I  grant you that the Mac is worth
> serious
>
> consideration; and, If I wasn't  still paying for this lap top, I  
> would
> indeed very seriously look at Voice  Over.  Let me give you an  
> example of
> how
>
> Voice Over users can be  more helpful.  In the NFB article, it is  
> stated
> that
>
> when you  press the space bar to check or uncheck items on a web page,
> Voice
> Over  does not tell you whether an item is checked or unchecked.  I
> believe
> this is true; however, there is another factor.  The article  then  
> goes on
> to
>
> incorrectly state that there is no way without fumbling  around, to
> determine
>
> whether an item is checked or not.  As I  understand it, there is a  
> special
> Voice over key command which is used to  check or uncheck items on web
> pages.
>
> When this key stroke is used,  Voice over will tell you at once  
> whether an
> item is checked or  unchecked.  Now, it's quite clear to me that the  
> fellow
> reviewing  Voice Over for the NFB did not know this fact.  but, I  
> ask you,
> why  did not some voice over users help him with the trouble he was  
> having?
> Why  did the NFB not seek help from Voice Over users?  Well, I think  
> I can
> answer that one.  He wanted to deal with Voice Over from the stand   
> point
> of
> a strictly out of the box experience.  IN other words, his  logic  
> was this.
> "Let me see what I can learn about Voice Over strictly  from the  
> help and
> what ever documentation I can access on my own.".   Fair enough;  
> but, let's
> think a bit.  How many Windows users do you  know who rely just on the
> built
> in help and what documentation they can  read on their own?  Well, I  
> sure
> don't know too many myself.   Most Windows users go to one another  
> for help
> and we help each  other.  Why, therefore, did the NFB fellow not  
> seek help
> in
>
> the  same way from Mac users?  A fair question I think.  Frankly, I am
> perfectly willing to take a look at Voice over, not so much from the  
> NFB
> stand point; nor from a Voice Over defense point of view.  My look   
> will be
> based a bit on both and I will be wanting to get very objective
> information.
>
> I don't think I can count on either the NFB or Voice Over  devotees  
> to be
> truly objective; and, therefore, the best strategy I can  think of  
> is to
> take
>
> the best of both and make your own  decision.
>
> Sincerely,
> The Constantly BAREFOOTED Ray
>
> "Old  friend, what are you looking for?  After those many years  
> abroad you
> come With images you tended Under foreign skies Far away from your own
> land"
> George Seferis
>
> Phone or Fax::
> +1 (985)  360-3614
> Cell:
> +1 (985)  791-2938
> e-mail:
> rforetjratcomcastdotnet
> Skype  Name:
> barefootedray
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kevin  Fjelsted" <kfjelsted at gmail.com>
> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List"  <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 12:49  PM
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>
>
> VoiceOver is absolutely  awesome. A superb resource for reading  
> details
> from a community perspective  is http://www.lioncourt.com.
> I thhink that the exciting thing about  VoiceOver is that the stars  
> are
> aligned for us. 1) Apple is making record  profits and is applying
> resources in support of  VoiceOver access  across there entire product
> line including mobile devices. The fact that  the NFB technology  
> center
> chooses to publish inaccuracies and  propaganda
> which is so misleading must mean that the existing companies  like
> Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to rally resources   
> to
> quash VoiceOver usage. When ever we see established  organizations
> becoming defensive it is time to really dig under the covers  and ask
> the reasons why. In my opinion every blind person who relies  on
> accessibility technology for computers and mobile devices needs  to
> look at VoiceOver as well as the other technologies and  proactively
> push the envelope so that we can create momentum for  transparency. My
> question is, why aren't  all of the vendors   emulating the approach  
> of
> VoiceOver, which is to have built in  accessibility to the device out
> of the box without charging extra? WHen I  can pay $190 for a cell
> phone that has built in accessibility I find that  amazing compared to
> spending money for a cell phone and then having to turn  around and  
> buy
> a 3rd party access solution that in many cases only works  half baked.
> Not only do I get a cell phone for $190 but I get all the built  in
> apps talking clock, calculator, maps, weather forecasting,  text
> messaging, address book management, calendaring including syncing   
> with
> other calendars. For years blind people have taken the position  that
> touch screens are the enemy and that we can't use them. Yet the   
> IPhone
> with VoiceOver is totally dependent on the touch screen. I  do
> everything with the touch screen look at email, update my  calendar,
> make phone calls,....   -Kevin Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at  10:26 AM,
> tunecollector<tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> This subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has  
>> anyone
>> used
>> it more intensively since then? Is it ready for prime  time? What  
>> are its
>> drawbacks.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing  list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
>> for
>> gui-talk:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail 
> .
> com
>>
>
>
>
> --  
> Kevin Fjelsted
> B Harris,  Inc.
> http://www.bharrisinc.com
> kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
> Phone:    612.424.7333 EX. 301
> Direct:   612.424.7332
>
> _______________________________________________
> gui-talk  mailing  list
> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> gui-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/rforetjr%40comcast
> .net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> gui-talk  mailing  list
> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>
> To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info   
> for
> gui-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/albertgriffith%40s
> bcglobal.net
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message:  14
> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 18:28:18 -0500
> From: Mike Arrigo  <n0oxy at charter.net>
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
> To: NFBnet  GUI Talk Mailing List <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID:  <3B43A41E-B8A2-4A6C-B42F-206F766AED1A at charter.net>
> Content-Type:  text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>
> Hi, it's  definitely ready for prime time, and is used by many blind
> users,  I'm using it as I type this message. As far as advantages and
> disadvantages, the main advantage is that it is built in to the
> ooperating system, as a blind person, you pay no more than anyone   
> else
> for accessibility. There are of course differences with the  mac
> compared to windows, so there is a bit of a learning curve at  first,
> the only other possible disadvantage I could see for some  people is
> that on web pages, there is no table navigation mode. I  don't see  
> this
> as a big thing, since I never use this even in  windows. The macintosh
> has become my primary computer, and I use it  far more than windows. I
> would put the functionality of voice over  against the windows screen
> readers any day, you can do just as much  I think.
> On Jul 25, 2009, at 10:26 AM, tunecollector wrote:
>
>> This subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has
>> anyone used
>> it more intensively since then?  Is it ready  for prime time?    What
>> are its
>> drawbacks.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing  list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> for gui-talk:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/n0oxy%40charter.net
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message:  15
> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 16:32:25 -0700
> From: "Dean Martineau"  <dean at topdotenterprises.com>
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
> To:  "'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID:  <026301ca0d80$2cbb0730$86311590$@com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;   charset="us-ascii"
>
> The kinds of questions Albert asks are the  sort of questions the  
> Federation
> staff should have taken on objectivbely,  but didn't, and I'll be  
> surprised
> if they ever do, because they'll have to  admit they actually  
> erred.  The
> choice of Mac vs. Windows, and trhen  Voice Over vs. any of several  
> windows
> screen readers, gets down to learning  style, economics,and the  
> functions
> you
> want to perform with the  computer.  As I understand it, MS Office  
> is not
> accessible but there  are alternatives which can work in some  
> situations.
> Anything media-related  will be at least as good with the Mac and will
> probably be supported by  Voice Over.  One advantage of Voice Over  
> and the
> Mac is that one needs  to learn many fewer keystrokes.  One does  
> things,
> apparently  effectively, in much more the way a sighted computer  
> user will
> do
> them.  For some learners, this is clearly an advantage.  The  point  
> is that
> somebody who knows both systems well, and probably who likes  them  
> both,
> should be conducting the analysis.  Such people do exist,  and if they
> don't,
> it would be a great function of that Baltimore Center to  seriously  
> acquire
> the skill.
>
>
> Dean
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:  gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk- 
> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf  Of albert griffith
> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 4:05 PM
> To: 'NFBnet GUI  Talk Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>
> Hello  Curtis:
> If someone needs to access, Ms. Office, a media player to rip,  burn,
> organize and play files along with managing place markers in a wide   
> range
> of
> file types
> will the voiceover work? This person has to access  the acrobat  
> reader, an
> instant messenger and an internet browser.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org  [mailto:gui-talk- 
> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Curtis Chong
> Sent:  Saturday, July 25, 2009 5:56 PM
> To: 'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing  List'
> Subject: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>
> On July 25, 2009, Kevin Fjelsted  wrote in relevant part:
>
> "The fact that the NFB technology center  chooses to publish  
> inaccuracies
> and
> propaganda which is so misleading must  mean that the existing  
> companies
> like
> Freedom Scientific are running scared  and trying to rally resources  
> to
> quash
> VoiceOver usage."
>
> Having  managed the International Braille and Technology Center for  
> five
> years, I  think I can say with some credibility that the Braille  
> Monitor
> article  which Kevin refers to was not intended to be deliberately
> inaccurate.   Nor was it intended to (as he says) "quash VoiceOver  
> usage."
>
> The  article that was published in the June edition of the Braille  
> Monitor
> was  clearly written from the perspective of a community which, in  
> the main,
> has  strong familiarity with the Windows operating system, Windows- 
> based
> screen  access technology, and Windows conventions.  Having read the
> article
> myself and reviewed some of the responses to it, I would   
> acknowledge that
> the article can be said to contain some inaccuracies and  erroneous
> conclusions.  However, the perspective of the author, while  not  
> that of a
> VoiceOver user, is reflective of the majority of blind  computer  
> users who,
> today, are familiar with Windows.  Clearly, the  author of the  
> article was
> not aware that there is a very dedicated  community of blind people  
> who have
> developed a high degree of  understanding, competence, and  
> sophistication
> with VoiceOver and the  Macintosh.  The article would have been well  
> served
> if the author had  been able to talk with some of these people.
>
> This may have been the  case when the article was written, but I am
> confident
> that the voices of  the Macintosh and VoiceOver community have been  
> heard
> and
> are even now  being consulted.
>
> Cordially,
>
> Curtis  Chong
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> gui-talk  mailing  list
> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info   
> for
> gui-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/albertgriffith%40s
> bcglobal.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> gui-talk  mailing  list
> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info   
> for
> gui-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/dean%40topdotenter
> prises.com
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message:  16
> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 18:33:51 -0500
> From: Mike Arrigo  <n0oxy at charter.net>
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
> To: NFBnet  GUI Talk Mailing List <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID:  <16D134DF-761E-42C3-AC2F-AA2F1E6AA737 at charter.net>
> Content-Type:  text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>
> Well said Kevin.  That article in the braille monitor was complete
> rubbish. I  understand if someone decides it's not for them, that's
> their  choice. But that article was simply incorrect, saying in many
> cases  that something cannot be done when in fact it can. I've also
> done a  complete pod cast on this article, demonstrating the things
> which  supposedly can't be done.
> On Jul 25, 2009, at 12:49 PM, Kevin Fjelsted  wrote:
>
>> VoiceOver is absolutely awesome. A superb resource for  reading  
>> details
>> from a community perspective is  http://www.lioncourt.com.
>> I thhink that the exciting thing about  VoiceOver is that the stars  
>> are
>> aligned for us. 1) Apple is making  record profits and is applying
>> resources in support of  VoiceOver  access across there entire  
>> product
>> line including mobile devices. The  fact that the NFB technology  
>> center
>> chooses to publish inaccuracies  and propaganda
>> which is so misleading must mean that the existing  companies like
>> Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to  rally  
>> resources to
>> quash VoiceOver usage. When ever we see established  organizations
>> becoming defensive it is time to really dig under the  covers and ask
>> the reasons why. In my opinion every blind person who  relies on
>> accessibility technology for computers and mobile devices  needs to
>> look at VoiceOver as well as the other technologies and  proactively
>> push the envelope so that we can create momentum for  transparency.  
>> My
>> question is, why aren't  all of the  vendors  emulating the  
>> approach of
>> VoiceOver, which is to have  built in accessibility to the device out
>> of the box without charging  extra? WHen I can pay $190 for a cell
>> phone that has built in  accessibility I find that amazing compared  
>> to
>> spending money for a  cell phone and then having to turn around and  
>> buy
>> a 3rd party access  solution that in many cases only works half  
>> baked.
>> Not only do I get a  cell phone for $190 but I get all the built in
>> apps talking clock,  calculator, maps, weather forecasting, text
>> messaging, address book  management, calendaring including syncing  
>> with
>> other calendars. For  years blind people have taken the position that
>> touch screens are the  enemy and that we can't use them. Yet the  
>> IPhone
>> with VoiceOver is  totally dependent on the touch screen. I do
>> everything with the touch  screen look at email, update my calendar,
>> make phone  calls,....   -Kevin Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 10:26 AM,
>> tunecollector<tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> This  subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has
>>> anyone used
>>> it more intensively since then?  Is it ready for  prime time?
>>> What are its
>>> drawbacks.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> gui-talk mailing  list
>>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>> for gui-talk:
>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Kevin Fjelsted
>> B Harris, Inc.
>> http://www.bharrisinc.com
>> kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
>> Phone:    612.424.7333 EX. 301
>> Direct:  612.424.7332
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing  list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> for gui-talk:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/n0oxy%40charter.net
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message:  17
> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 16:35:15 -0700
> From: "Dean Martineau"  <dean at topdotenterprises.com>
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] [Bulk]   Voiceover
> To: "'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'"  <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID:  <026401ca0d80$922b32c0$b6819840$@com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;   charset="us-ascii"
>
> As I mentioned elsewhere, the whole premise  of that article is  
> frlawed.
> Just because most blind users use Windows  doesn't mean they're good  
> at it
> or
> that they like it.  The article  should have taken that fact into  
> account,
> but discussed different scenarios  in which the Mac and Voice Over  
> might or
> might not be a good option for  somebody.
>
> Dean
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:  gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk- 
> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf  Of tunecollector
> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 4:01 PM
> To: 'NFBnet GUI  Talk Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] [Bulk] Voiceover
>
> Probably  echoing the sentiment, I would have found the article
> uninformative
> if it  had been written strictly from a Mac user's viewpoint since  
> I  have
> absolutely no familiarity with a Mac computer.  Despite that, I   
> have no
> loyalty to a PC over a Mac.  I do not consider myself computer   
> savvy and
> most likely never will be.  I am looking for something for  ease of  
> use and
> not for maximizing what I can dan do with a  computer.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:  gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk- 
> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf  Of Curtis Chong
> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 2:56 PM
> To: 'NFBnet GUI  Talk Mailing List'
> Subject: [Bulk] [gui-talk] Voiceover
>
> On July 25,  2009, Kevin Fjelsted wrote in relevant part:
>
> "The fact that the NFB  technology center chooses to publish  
> inaccuracies
> and
> propaganda which is  so misleading must mean that the existing  
> companies
> like
> Freedom Scientific  are running scared and trying to rally resources  
> to
> quash
> VoiceOver  usage."
>
> Having managed the International Braille and Technology Center  for  
> five
> years, I think I can say with some credibility that the Braille   
> Monitor
> article which Kevin refers to was not intended to be  deliberately
> inaccurate.  Nor was it intended to (as he says) "quash  VoiceOver  
> usage."
>
> The article that was published in the June edition of  the Braille  
> Monitor
> was clearly written from the perspective of a community  which, in  
> the main,
> has strong familiarity with the Windows operating  system, Windows- 
> based
> screen access technology, and Windows  conventions.  Having read the  
> article
> myself and reviewed some of the  responses to it, I would  
> acknowledge that
> the article can be said to  contain some inaccuracies and erroneous
> conclusions.  However, the  perspective of the author, while not  
> that of a
> VoiceOver user, is  reflective of the majority of blind computer  
> users who,
> today, are familiar  with Windows.  Clearly, the author of the  
> article was
> not aware that  there is a very dedicated community of blind people  
> who have
> developed a  high degree of understanding, competence, and  
> sophistication
> with VoiceOver  and the Macintosh.  The article would have been well  
> served
> if the  author had been able to talk with some of these people.
>
> This may have  been the case when the article was written, but I am
> confident
> that the  voices of the Macintosh and VoiceOver community have been  
> heard
> and
> are  even now being consulted.
>
> Cordially,
>
> Curtis  Chong
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> gui-talk  mailing  list
> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info   
> for
> gui-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/tunecollector%40sb
> cglobal.net
>
>
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> _______________________________________________
> gui-talk  mailing  list
> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info   
> for
> gui-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/dean%40topdotenter
> prises.com
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message:  18
> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 18:36:52 -0500
> From: Mike Arrigo  <n0oxy at charter.net>
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
> To: NFBnet  GUI Talk Mailing List <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID:  <C25DBAF3-61CC-4E7C-ACD2-5C6673024568 at charter.net>
> Content-Type:  text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>
> The article is  in the June braille monitor, certainly you can read it
> if your  curious, but the information in it is totally wrong. That's
> great  that you're considering a mac, I absolutely love mine, I think
> you  would be very happy with it.
> On Jul 25, 2009, at 2:00 PM, albert griffith  wrote:
>
>> Hi Kevin, I'm definitely purchasing a new machine in the  next couple
>> of
>> months and I'm seriously considering a  Mac.  I'd like to read the  
>> NFB
>> articles of which you speak with  all their inaccuracies but I don't
>> know
>> where to locate  them.  Can you tell me where to go to read them?  I
>> don't
>> need an exact URL just the general area will do.   thanks
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From:  gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-
>> bounces at nfbnet.org]  On
>> Behalf Of Kevin Fjelsted
>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 1:50  PM
>> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk]  Voiceover
>>
>> VoiceOver is absolutely awesome. A superb resource  for reading  
>> details
>> from a community perspective is  http://www.lioncourt.com.
>> I thhink that the exciting thing about  VoiceOver is that the stars  
>> are
>> aligned for us. 1) Apple is making  record profits and is applying
>> resources in support of  VoiceOver  access across there entire  
>> product
>> line including mobile devices. The  fact that the NFB technology  
>> center
>> chooses to publish inaccuracies  and propaganda
>> which is so misleading must mean that the existing  companies like
>> Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to  rally  
>> resources to
>> quash VoiceOver usage. When ever we see established  organizations
>> becoming defensive it is time to really dig under the  covers and ask
>> the reasons why. In my opinion every blind person who  relies on
>> accessibility technology for computers and mobile devices  needs to
>> look at VoiceOver as well as the other technologies and  proactively
>> push the envelope so that we can create momentum for  transparency.  
>> My
>> question is, why aren't  all of the  vendors  emulating the  
>> approach of
>> VoiceOver, which is to have  built in accessibility to the device out
>> of the box without charging  extra? WHen I can pay $190 for a cell
>> phone that has built in  accessibility I find that amazing compared  
>> to
>> spending money for a  cell phone and then having to turn around and  
>> buy
>> a 3rd party access  solution that in many cases only works half  
>> baked.
>> Not only do I get a  cell phone for $190 but I get all the built in
>> apps talking clock,  calculator, maps, weather forecasting, text
>> messaging, address book  management, calendaring including syncing  
>> with
>> other calendars. For  years blind people have taken the position that
>> touch screens are the  enemy and that we can't use them. Yet the  
>> IPhone
>> with VoiceOver is  totally dependent on the touch screen. I do
>> everything with the touch  screen look at email, update my calendar,
>> make phone  calls,....   -Kevin Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 10:26 AM,
>> tunecollector<tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>>> This  subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has
>>> anyone
>> used
>>> it more intensively since then?  Is it  ready for prime time?
>>> What are
>> its
>>> drawbacks.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> gui-talk mailing  list
>>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
>>> for
>> gui-talk:
>>>
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail
>> .
>> com
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Kevin Fjelsted
>> B Harris, Inc.
>> http://www.bharrisinc.com
>> kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
>> Phone:    612.424.7333 EX. 301
>> Direct:  612.424.7332
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing  list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
>> for
>> gui-talk:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/albertgriffith%40s
>> bcglobal.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing  list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> for gui-talk:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/n0oxy%40charter.net
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message:  19
> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 18:40:23 -0500
> From: Mike Arrigo  <n0oxy at charter.net>
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
> To: NFBnet  GUI Talk Mailing List <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID:  <AD4A998E-520B-4F10-A7E6-3E6C2350F51B at charter.net>
> Content-Type:  text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>
> I have also done  9 macintosh pod casts on blindcooltech.com, and pod
> cast number 8 is  dedicated to demonstrating how wrong this article  
> is.
> It's one thing  to say the article is wrong, but demonstrating it
> leaves no  doubt.
> On Jul 25, 2009, at 2:55 PM, Kevin Fjelsted wrote:
>
>> The  NFB article is located at
>> http://tinyurl.com/ndplsk
>> I  recommend that you also read a review of that article at
>> http://tinyurl.com/l2samj
>>
>> -Kevin
>>
>> On 7/25/09,  albert griffith <albertgriffith at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> Hi  Kevin, I'm definitely purchasing a new machine in the next
>>> couple of
>>> months and I'm seriously considering a Mac.  I'd  like to read the  
>>> NFB
>>> articles of which you speak with all their  inaccuracies but I don't
>>> know
>>> where to locate  them.  Can you tell me where to go to read them?  I
>>> don't
>>> need an exact URL just the general area will  do.  thanks
>>>
>>> -----Original  Message-----
>>> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-
>>> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Kevin  Fjelsted
>>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 1:50 PM
>>> To:  NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk]  Voiceover
>>>
>>> VoiceOver is absolutely awesome. A superb  resource for reading
>>> details
>>> from a community  perspective is http://www.lioncourt.com.
>>> I thhink that the  exciting thing about VoiceOver is that the stars
>>> are
>>> aligned for us. 1) Apple is making record profits and is  applying
>>> resources in support of  VoiceOver access across  there entire  
>>> product
>>> line including mobile devices. The fact that  the NFB technology
>>> center
>>> chooses to publish  inaccuracies and propaganda
>>> which is so misleading must mean that  the existing companies like
>>> Freedom Scientific are running scared  and trying to rally resources
>>> to
>>> quash  VoiceOver usage. When ever we see established organizations
>>> becoming defensive it is time to really dig under the covers and   
>>> ask
>>> the reasons why. In my opinion every blind person who relies  on
>>> accessibility technology for computers and mobile devices needs  to
>>> look at VoiceOver as well as the other technologies and  proactively
>>> push the envelope so that we can create momentum for   
>>> transparency. My
>>> question is, why aren't  all of the  vendors  emulating the approach
>>> of
>>> VoiceOver, which is to have built in accessibility to the device   
>>> out
>>> of the box without charging extra? WHen I can pay $190 for a  cell
>>> phone that has built in accessibility I find that amazing   
>>> compared to
>>> spending money for a cell phone and then having to  turn around and
>>> buy
>>> a 3rd party access solution  that in many cases only works half  
>>> baked.
>>> Not only do I get a cell  phone for $190 but I get all the built in
>>> apps talking clock,  calculator, maps, weather forecasting, text
>>> messaging, address  book management, calendaring including syncing
>>> with
>>> other calendars. For years blind people have taken the  position  
>>> that
>>> touch screens are the enemy and that we can't use  them. Yet the
>>> IPhone
>>> with VoiceOver is totally  dependent on the touch screen. I do
>>> everything with the touch  screen look at email, update my calendar,
>>> make phone  calls,....   -Kevin Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 10:26 AM,
>>> tunecollector<tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>> This  subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has
>>>> anyone
>>> used
>>>> it more intensively  since then?  Is it ready for prime time?
>>>> What are
>>> its
>>>> drawbacks.
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> gui-talk  mailing list
>>>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>> for
>>> gui-talk:
>>>>
>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail
>>> .
>>> com
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Kevin Fjelsted
>>> B Harris, Inc.
>>> http://www.bharrisinc.com
>>> kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
>>> Phone:    612.424.7333 EX. 301
>>> Direct:   612.424.7332
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> gui-talk mailing  list
>>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
>>> for
>>> gui-talk:
>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/albertgriffith%40s
>>> bcglobal.net
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> gui-talk mailing  list
>>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
>>> for
>>> gui-talk:
>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing  list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> for gui-talk:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/n0oxy%40charter.net
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message:  20
> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 18:48:16 -0500
> From: Mike Arrigo  <n0oxy at charter.net>
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
> To: NFBnet  GUI Talk Mailing List <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID:  <838947D6-32EE-403A-BC4E-400ADBA413B8 at charter.net>
> Content-Type:  text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>
> That was the big  mistake of this article, the concept seemed to be,
> windows does it  this way, and if the mac does it differently, it's a
> problem. There  are several similarities between the mac and windows,
> but expecting  the mac to work the exact same way is a recipe for
> frustration. In  my pod casts on blindcooltech, I try my best to make
> comparisons  when they're appropriate, but also remind the listener
> that it's not  windows, and therefore will not behave the same.
> On Jul 25, 2009, at 2:24  PM, Ray Foret jr wrote:
>
>> Granted, Voice over is well worth serious  consideration; but, Kevin,
>> there's
>> no need to get  unpleasant about it.  The NFB's perspective was
>> written  from
>> a Windows users point of view because that's what most  blind
>> computer users
>> are familiar with.  Like it  or not, this is so.  I always hear Voice
>> Over
>> users say "You can't compare the Mac to Windows.".  Fair  enough.
>> So, in
>> that case, why not truly help us  Windows users get to know Voice
>> Over better
>> instead of  just criticizing us just because we do what it is human
>> nature  to
>> do; compare one thing to another.  I grant you that the Mac is  worth
>> serious
>> consideration; and, If I wasn't still  paying for this lap top, I  
>> would
>> indeed very seriously look at Voice  Over.  Let me give you an
>> example of how
>> Voice  Over users can be more helpful.  In the NFB article, it is
>> stated that
>> when you press the space bar to check or uncheck items on  a web
>> page, Voice
>> Over does not tell you whether an  item is checked or unchecked.  I
>> believe
>> this is true; however, there is another factor.  The article then
>> goes on to
>> incorrectly state that there is no way without  fumbling around, to
>> determine
>> whether an item is  checked or not.  As I understand it, there is a
>> special
>> Voice over key command which is used to check or uncheck items  on
>> web pages.
>> When this key stroke is used, Voice over  will tell you at once
>> whether an
>> item is checked or  unchecked.  Now, it's quite clear to me that the
>> fellow
>> reviewing Voice Over for the NFB did not know this fact.   but, I ask
>> you,
>> why did not some voice over users help  him with the trouble he was
>> having?
>> Why did the NFB not  seek help from Voice Over users?  Well, I think
>> I  can
>> answer that one.  He wanted to deal with Voice Over from the  stand
>> point of
>> a strictly out of the box  experience.  IN other words, his logic was
>> this.
>> "Let me see what I can learn about Voice Over strictly from the help
>> and
>> what ever documentation I can access on my own.".   Fair enough; but,
>> let's
>> think a bit.  How many  Windows users do you know who rely just on
>> the built
>> in  help and what documentation they can read on their own?  Well, I
>> sure
>> don't know too many myself.  Most Windows users go  to one another
>> for help
>> and we help each other.   Why, therefore, did the NFB fellow not seek
>> help in
>> the  same way from Mac users?  A fair question I think.  Frankly,  
>> I  am
>> perfectly willing to take a look at Voice over, not so much from  the
>> NFB
>> stand point; nor from a Voice Over defense  point of view.  My look
>> will be
>> based a bit on  both and I will be wanting to get very objective
>> information.
>> I don't think I can count on either the NFB or Voice Over  devotees
>> to be
>> truly objective; and, therefore, the  best strategy I can think of is
>> to take
>> the best of  both and make your own decision.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> The  Constantly BAREFOOTED Ray
>>
>> "Old friend, what are you looking  for?  After those many years
>> abroad you
>> come With  images you tended Under foreign skies Far away from your
>> own  land"
>> George Seferis
>>
>> Phone or Fax::
>> +1 (985)  360-3614
>> Cell:
>> +1 (985) 791-2938
>> e-mail:
>> rforetjratcomcastdotnet
>> Skype Name:
>> barefootedray
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From:  "Kevin Fjelsted" <kfjelsted at gmail.com>
>> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk  Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, July 25,  2009 12:49 PM
>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk]  Voiceover
>>
>>
>> VoiceOver is absolutely awesome. A superb  resource for reading  
>> details
>> from a community perspective is  http://www.lioncourt.com.
>> I thhink that the exciting thing about  VoiceOver is that the stars  
>> are
>> aligned for us. 1) Apple is making  record profits and is applying
>> resources in support of  VoiceOver  access across there entire  
>> product
>> line including mobile devices. The  fact that the NFB technology  
>> center
>> chooses to publish inaccuracies  and propaganda
>> which is so misleading must mean that the existing  companies like
>> Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to  rally  
>> resources to
>> quash VoiceOver usage. When ever we see established  organizations
>> becoming defensive it is time to really dig under the  covers and ask
>> the reasons why. In my opinion every blind person who  relies on
>> accessibility technology for computers and mobile devices  needs to
>> look at VoiceOver as well as the other technologies and  proactively
>> push the envelope so that we can create momentum for  transparency.  
>> My
>> question is, why aren't  all of the  vendors  emulating the  
>> approach of
>> VoiceOver, which is to have  built in accessibility to the device out
>> of the box without charging  extra? WHen I can pay $190 for a cell
>> phone that has built in  accessibility I find that amazing compared  
>> to
>> spending money for a  cell phone and then having to turn around and  
>> buy
>> a 3rd party access  solution that in many cases only works half  
>> baked.
>> Not only do I get a  cell phone for $190 but I get all the built in
>> apps talking clock,  calculator, maps, weather forecasting, text
>> messaging, address book  management, calendaring including syncing  
>> with
>> other calendars. For  years blind people have taken the position that
>> touch screens are the  enemy and that we can't use them. Yet the  
>> IPhone
>> with VoiceOver is  totally dependent on the touch screen. I do
>> everything with the touch  screen look at email, update my calendar,
>> make phone  calls,....   -Kevin Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 10:26 AM,
>> tunecollector<tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> This  subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has
>>> anyone
>>> used
>>> it more intensively since then? Is it  ready for prime time? What
>>> are its
>>> drawbacks.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> gui-talk mailing  list
>>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
>>> for
>>> gui-talk:
>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Kevin Fjelsted
>> B Harris, Inc.
>> http://www.bharrisinc.com
>> kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
>> Phone:    612.424.7333 EX. 301
>> Direct:  612.424.7332
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing  list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
>> for
>> gui-talk:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/rforetjr%40comcast.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing  list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> for gui-talk:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/n0oxy%40charter.net
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message:  21
> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 18:55:52 -0500
> From: Mike Arrigo  <n0oxy at charter.net>
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
> To: NFBnet  GUI Talk Mailing List <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID:  <276AF8B0-59E1-4456-8883-FAE646FD12FC at charter.net>
> Content-Type:  text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>
> Hi. By the time  you are ready to get your computer, mac o s 10.6 will
> probably be  out, there are many improvements to voice over in that
> release. Am I  saying that voice over is perfect? Not at all, there is
> always room  for improvement. I'd be curious in what way you think
> voice over  needs to be seasoned. You may want to check out my pod
> casts on  blind cool tech, many people have found them helpful. On the
> windows  side of things, I think serotek offers a great product, and
> have  suggested it to many people who choose to stay with windows.
> On Jul 25,  2009, at 4:47 PM, albert griffith wrote:
>
>> Ray, you've nearly  mirrored my point of view relative to voiceover.
>> I'm
>> going to purchase a computer by year's end so I'm reviewing  many
>> operating
>> systems
>> With a real critical  eye.  The screen reader developed by Apple  
>> has my
>> attention for  obvious reasons.  Since it's built in I'll save allot
>> of  cash
>> over time if it will perform adequately.  My chief concerns  are
>> availability
>> and the accessibility of the programs  I most often use.  I consider
>> myself
>> quite tech  savvy but I'm finding many of those with experience with
>> the
>> system are real tech oriented so their need for a clean  out-of-box
>> experience isn't as important to them.  I'm open to  any comparative
>> appraisals of the two screen readers.  If I had  to go with an
>> operating
>> system and screen reader today  I'd remove voiceover from my list of
>> choices
>> because I  believe although without much evidence that it needs a
>> little
>> seasoning.  I'm predicting it will work real well on my  next machine
>> which
>> I'll probably buy in 2013 or 14 but  I'm not so sure that I'm ready
>> to stop
>> my  evaluations.  I'm also considering hooking up with Serotek's   
>> mobile
>> network.  It not only works well with many programs but  the price is
>> right.
>> Any articles you or anyone else  could point me too will be
>> appreciated.  The
>> information we gather as list members will help all of us. On one
>> level I'm
>> frustrated with the number of choices we have but  I'm also grateful
>> for
>> them.
>> -----Original  Message-----
>> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-
>> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Ray Foret jr
>> Sent:  Saturday, July 25, 2009 3:24 PM
>> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing  List
>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>>
>> Granted, Voice  over is well worth serious consideration; but, Kevin,
>> there's
>>
>> no need to get unpleasant about it.  The NFB's  perspective was
>> written from
>> a Windows users point of  view because that's what most blind
>> computer users
>> are  familiar with.  Like it or not, this is so.  I always hear   
>> Voice
>> Over
>> users say "You can't compare the Mac to  Windows.".  Fair enough.
>> So, in
>> that case,  why not truly help us Windows users get to know Voice
>> Over  better
>>
>> instead of just criticizing us just because we do what  it is human
>> nature to
>>
>> do; compare one thing to  another.  I grant you that the Mac is worth
>> serious
>>
>> consideration; and, If I wasn't still paying for this  lap top, I  
>> would
>> indeed very seriously look at Voice Over.  Let  me give you an
>> example of how
>>
>> Voice Over users  can be more helpful.  In the NFB article, it is
>> stated  that
>>
>> when you press the space bar to check or uncheck items on  a web
>> page, Voice
>> Over does not tell you whether an  item is checked or unchecked.  I
>> believe
>> this is true; however, there is another factor.  The article then
>> goes on to
>>
>> incorrectly state that there is no way  without fumbling around, to
>> determine
>>
>> whether  an item is checked or not.  As I understand it, there is a
>> special
>> Voice over key command which is used to check or uncheck items  on
>> web pages.
>>
>> When this key stroke is used,  Voice over will tell you at once
>> whether an
>> item is  checked or unchecked.  Now, it's quite clear to me that the
>> fellow
>> reviewing Voice Over for the NFB did not know this  fact.  but, I ask
>> you,
>> why did not some voice over  users help him with the trouble he was
>> having?
>> Why did  the NFB not seek help from Voice Over users?  Well, I think
>> I can
>> answer that one.  He wanted to deal with Voice  Over from the stand
>> point of
>> a strictly out of the box  experience.  IN other words, his logic was
>> this.
>> "Let me see what I can learn about Voice Over strictly from the help
>> and
>> what ever documentation I can access on my own.".   Fair enough; but,
>> let's
>> think a bit.  How many  Windows users do you know who rely just on
>> the built
>> in   help and what documentation they can read on their own?&   
>> Well, I
>> sure
>> don't know too many myself.  Most Windows users go  to one another
>> for help
>> and we help each other.   Why, therefore, did the NFB fellow not seek
>> help  in
>>
>> the same way from Mac users?  A fair question I  think.  Frankly, I  
>> am
>> perfectly willing to take a look at Voice  over, not so much from the
>> NFB
>> stand point; nor from a  Voice Over defense point of view.  My look
>> will be
>> based a bit on both and I will be wanting to get very objective
>> information.
>>
>> I don't think I can count on either the NFB or  Voice Over devotees
>> to be
>> truly objective; and,  therefore, the best strategy I can think of is
>> to  take
>>
>> the best of both and make your own  decision.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> The Constantly BAREFOOTED  Ray
>>
>> "Old friend, what are you looking for?  After those  many years
>> abroad you
>> come With images you tended Under  foreign skies Far away from your
>> own land"
>> George  Seferis
>>
>> Phone or Fax::
>> +1 (985) 360-3614
>> Cell:
>> +1 (985) 791-2938
>> e-mail:
>> rforetjratcomcastdotnet
>> Skype Name:
>> barefootedray
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From:  "Kevin Fjelsted" <kfjelsted at gmail.com>
>> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk  Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, July 25,  2009 12:49 PM
>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk]  Voiceover
>>
>>
>> VoiceOver is absolutely awesome. A superb  resource for reading  
>> details
>> from a community perspective is  http://www.lioncourt.com.
>> I thhink that the exciting thing about  VoiceOver is that the stars  
>> are
>> aligned for us. 1) Apple is making  record profits and is applying
>> resources in support of  VoiceOver  access across there entire  
>> product
>> line including mobile devices. The  fact that the NFB technology  
>> center
>> chooses to publish inaccuracies  and propaganda
>> which is so misleading must mean that the existing  companies like
>> Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to  rally  
>> resources to
>> quash VoiceOver usage. When ever we see established  organizations
>> becoming defensive it is time to really dig under the  covers and ask
>> the reasons why. In my opinion every blind person who  relies on
>> accessibility technology for computers and mobile devices  needs to
>> look at VoiceOver as well as the other technologies and  proactively
>> push the envelope so that we can create momentum for  transparency.  
>> My
>> question is, why aren't  all of the  vendors  emulating the  
>> approach of
>> VoiceOver, which is to have  built in accessibility to the device out
>> of the box without charging  extra? WHen I can pay $190 for a cell
>> phone that has built in  accessibility I find that amazing compared  
>> to
>
>> spending money for a  cell phone and then having to turn around and  
>> buy
>> a 3rd party access  solution that in many cases only works half  
>> baked.
>> Not only do I get a  cell phone for $190 but I get all the built in
>> apps talking clock,  calculator, maps, weather forecasting, text
>> messaging, address book  management, calendaring including syncing  
>> with
>> other calendars. For  years blind people have taken the position that
>> touch screens are the  enemy and that we can't use them. Yet the  
>> IPhone
>> with VoiceOver is  totally dependent on the touch screen. I do
>> everything with the touch  screen look at email, update my calendar,
>> make phone  calls,....   -Kevin Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 10:26 AM,
>> tunecollector<tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> This  subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has
>>> anyone
>>> used
>>> it more intensively since then? Is it  ready for prime time? What
>>> are its
>>> drawbacks.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> gui-talk mailing  list
>>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
>>> for
>>> gui-talk:
>>>
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail
>> .
>> com
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Kevin Fjelsted
>> B Harris, Inc.
>> http://www.bharrisinc.com
>> kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
>> Phone:    612.424.7333 EX. 301
>> Direct:  612.424.7332
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing  list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
>> for
>> gui-talk:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/rforetjr%40comcast
>> .net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing  list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
>> for
>> gui-talk:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/albertgriffith%40s
>> bcglobal.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing  list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> for gui-talk:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/n0oxy%40charter.net
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message:  22
> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 19:57:15 -0400
> From: Chris G  <chris at mysticplace.org>
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
> To:  NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID:  <20090725195714.5EC8.6211D45A at mysticplace.org>
> Content-Type:  text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> Hi,
> The screen reader comes on the  Mac as a full product.  When you buy a
> Mac you press COMMAND-F5 to  start VoiceOver.
>
> You can hear Mikes' podcasts where he demonstrates the  screen  
> reader in
> action.  His latest one shows an multi platform  instant messaging  
> client
> called Adium that works great with VO.
> You can  find the podcasts at www.blindcooltech.com
> Those were the reasons I decided  to purchase a Mac and I like it.  I
> didn't find it hard to use after  listening to Mike.  The hardest  
> thing
> for me was cursor movement, but  once I was able to rap my head around
> the way the Mac does it, it's not an  issue.
> Chris
>
>
>
> On Sat, 25 Jul 2009 19:19:50 -0400
> "albert  griffith" <albertgriffith at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> Hi  Ray,  I've yet to read the NFB article but I plan to soon.  We'll
> benefit
>> from all the access points it should illuminate. Do you know  if  
>> Apple is
>> offering their screen reader as a demo anywhere?
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From:  gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org 
>> ] On
>> Behalf Of Ray Foret jr
>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 3:24 PM
>> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk]  Voiceover
>>
>> Granted, Voice over is well worth serious  consideration; but, Kevin,
> there's
>>
>> no need to get unpleasant  about it.  The NFB's perspective was  
>> written
> from
>
>> a Windows  users point of view because that's what most blind  
>> computer
> users
>> are  familiar with.  Like it or not, this is so.  I always hear Voice
> Over
>> users say "You can't compare the Mac to Windows.".  Fair  enough.   
>> So, in
>> that case, why not truly help us Windows users  get to know Voice  
>> Over
> better
>>
>> instead of just criticizing us  just because we do what it is human
> nature to
>>
>> do; compare one  thing to another.  I grant you that the Mac is worth
> serious
>>
>> consideration; and, If I wasn't still paying for this lap top, I   
>> would
>> indeed very seriously look at Voice Over.  Let me give you  an  
>> example of
> how
>>
>> Voice Over users can be more helpful.   In the NFB article, it is  
>> stated
> that
>>
>> when you press the  space bar to check or uncheck items on a web  
>> page,
> Voice
>> Over does  not tell you whether an item is checked or unchecked.  I
> believe
>> this is true; however, there is another factor.  The article  then  
>> goes
> on to
>>
>> incorrectly state that there is no way  without fumbling around, to
> determine
>>
>> whether an item is  checked or not.  As I understand it, there is a
> special
>> Voice  over key command which is used to check or uncheck items on  
>> web
> pages.
>>
>> When this key stroke is used, Voice over will tell you at once   
>> whether
> an
>> item is checked or unchecked.  Now, it's quite clear  to me that the
> fellow
>> reviewing Voice Over for the NFB did not know  this fact.  but, I ask
> you,
>> why did not some voice over users  help him with the trouble he was
> having?
>> Why did the NFB not seek  help from Voice Over users?  Well, I  
>> think I
> can
>> answer that  one.  He wanted to deal with Voice Over from the stand  
>> point
> of
>> a strictly out of the box experience.  IN other words, his logic was
> this.
>> "Let me see what I can learn about Voice Over strictly from the   
>> help and
>> what ever documentation I can access on my own.".  Fair  enough; but,
> let's
>> think a bit.  How many Windows users do you  know who rely just on  
>> the
> built
>> in help and what documentation they  can read on their own?  Well,  
>> I sure
>> don't know too many  myself.  Most Windows users go to one another  
>> for
> help
>> and we  help each other.  Why, therefore, did the NFB fellow not seek
> help  in
>>
>> the same way from Mac users?  A fair question I  think.  Frankly, I  
>> am
>> perfectly willing to take a look at Voice  over, not so much from  
>> the NFB
>> stand point; nor from a Voice Over  defense point of view.  My look  
>> will
> be
>> based a bit on both and  I will be wanting to get very objective
> information.
>>
>> I don't  think I can count on either the NFB or Voice Over devotees  
>> to be
>> truly objective; and, therefore, the best strategy I can think of  
>> is to
> take
>>
>> the best of both and make your own decision.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> The Constantly BAREFOOTED Ray
>>
>> "Old friend, what are you looking for?  After those many years abroad
> you
>> come With images you tended Under foreign skies Far away from your   
>> own
> land"
>> George Seferis
>>
>> Phone or Fax::
>> +1  (985) 360-3614
>> Cell:
>> +1 (985) 791-2938
>> e-mail:
>> rforetjratcomcastdotnet
>> Skype Name:
>> barefootedray
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Kevin Fjelsted"  <kfjelsted at gmail.com>
>> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List"  <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 12:49  PM
>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>>
>>
>> VoiceOver is absolutely awesome. A superb resource for reading  
>> details
>> from a community perspective is http://www.lioncourt.com.
>> I thhink  that the exciting thing about VoiceOver is that the stars  
>> are
>> aligned  for us. 1) Apple is making record profits and is applying
>> resources in  support of  VoiceOver access across there entire  
>> product
>> line  including mobile devices. The fact that the NFB technology  
>> center
>> chooses to publish inaccuracies and propaganda
>> which is so misleading  must mean that the existing companies like
>> Freedom Scientific are  running scared and trying to rally  
>> resources to
>> quash VoiceOver usage.  When ever we see established organizations
>> becoming defensive it is  time to really dig under the covers and ask
>> the reasons why. In my  opinion every blind person who relies on
>> accessibility technology for  computers and mobile devices needs to
>> look at VoiceOver as well as the  other technologies and proactively
>> push the envelope so that we can  create momentum for transparency.  
>> My
>> question is, why aren't  all  of the vendors  emulating the  
>> approach of
>> VoiceOver, which is to  have built in accessibility to the device out
>> of the box without  charging extra? WHen I can pay $190 for a cell
>> phone that has built in  accessibility I find that amazing compared  
>> to
>> spending money for a  cell phone and then having to turn around and  
>> buy
>> a 3rd party access  solution that in many cases only works half  
>> baked.
>> Not only do I get a  cell phone for $190 but I get all the built in
>> apps talking clock,  calculator, maps, weather forecasting, text
>> messaging, address book  management, calendaring including syncing  
>> with
>> other calendars. For  years blind people have taken the position that
>> touch screens are the  enemy and that we can't use them. Yet the  
>> IPhone
>> with VoiceOver is  totally dependent on the touch screen. I do
>> everything with the touch  screen look at email, update my calendar,
>> make phone  calls,....   -Kevin Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 10:26 AM,
>> tunecollector<tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> This  subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has
> anyone
>>> used
>>> it more intensively since then? Is it ready for prime  time? What  
>>> are
> its
>>> drawbacks.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> gui-talk mailing  list
>>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
>>> for
>>> gui-talk:
>>>
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail 
> .
>> com
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Kevin  Fjelsted
>> B Harris, Inc.
>> http://www.bharrisinc.com
>> kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
>> Phone:    612.424.7333 EX. 301
>> Direct:  612.424.7332
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing  list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
>> for
>> gui-talk:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/rforetjr%40comcast
>> .net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing  list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
>> for
>> gui-talk:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/albertgriffith%40s
>> bcglobal.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing  list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To  unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
>> for
> gui-talk:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/chris%40mysticplace.org
>
>
> --  
> The home of the Mystic Place blog and  podcast.
> www.mysticplace.info
> RSS:  feeds.feedburner.com/mysticplacebp
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message:  23
> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 19:05:15 -0500
> From: Mike Arrigo  <n0oxy at charter.net>
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
> To: NFBnet  GUI Talk Mailing List <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID:  <A78D204E-375D-4C33-902F-5741CA386581 at charter.net>
> Content-Type:  text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>
> Hi. Allow me to  answer your question about each type of program.  
> First
> the office  suite. Microsoft Office is not accessible on the mac,
> however there  are 2 alternatives. Open Office version 3 for the mac  
> is
> accessible  with voice over, so is Apple's office suite, i work  
> version
> 9. Both  of these suites will open and save Microsoft Office files.  
> The
> word  processor that comes with the mac, called text edit, will open
> and  save Microsoft Word files, even version 2007.
> For playing and ripping  media, there are several choices. Itunes will
> play CDS, as well as  rip them to your hard drive. It can also play
> streaming media. There  are also 2 other players that I know of. Quick
> time will play  several media types, and there is a plug in you can
> install that  will allow quick time to play windows media files as  
> well
> as windows  media streams. Another player worth considering is the vlc
> player.  This plays windows media as well as .ogg files.
> Adobe reader is not needed  on the mac, there is a program included
> with the mac called preview.  This will open pdf files, and you can
> start reading right away, no  waiting for the document to be prepared
> for reading.
> For the web,  the safari browser works great, and you have access to
> much of the  same functions such as moving by link heading, etc. There
> is also no  forms mode to worry about, just move to the control and
> start  typing, works very well. Let me know if you are concerned about
> any  other applications.
> On Jul 25, 2009, at 6:04 PM, albert griffith  wrote:
>
>> Hello Curtis:
>> If someone needs to access, Ms.  Office, a media player to rip, burn,
>> organize and play files along  with managing place markers in a wide
>> range of
>> file  types
>> will the voiceover work? This person has to access the  acrobat
>> reader, an
>> instant messenger and  an
>
>
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> _______________________________________________
> gui-talk mailing list
> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
> for gui-talk:
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