[gui-talk] when will folks start raising hell regarding Windows Phone 8?

Mon Dec 3 13:04:31 UTC 2012

Strategies which do work seem to be:
1.  Legal action
2.  finding a executive champion
3.  Developing relationships with developers and program managers to get them to understand accessibility doesn't really cost a lot
4.  continuous monitoring and calling companies out for inaccessible products

The combination of watchfulness, advocacy, outright legal action, and top-down leadership paired with bottom-up culture change all have to take place to be successful in more than surface level unique situations.  This is the type of conbination I'd like to see more of from our advocacy efforts, as without such change comes slower than I get old.

The reality is accessibility needs to be built in to corporate cultures or it will cost more, and if viewed as extra cost, not just part of doing quality work, it will always get the short end of the stick.  Market forces won't drive integration of accessibility--it is not an easy profit return on investment.  Accessibility really doesn't start benefiting folks as a whole until it gets included in the cultures and procedures of a development/marketing organization.  When that happens, as is somewhat the case for Apple, good things start happening and can be sustained.  I'm not convinced the Microsoft accessibility model works, as it doesn't require accessibility from each product division, but leaves such important decisions in the hands of silos of responsibility.  If you ask me, the concept that accessibility is left out of Windows Phone 8 just shows the terrible integration of their own products--maybe you can easily pick up email from Exchange from a Windows Phone 8 system, but you can't easily get it made accessible via the same procedures you would use on the desktop makes for inconsistent development of applications, which never is good, and always costs more money--making the platform less competitive overall.

-----Original Message-----
From: gui-talk [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mike Freeman
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2012 1:26 PM
To: 'Discussion of the Graphical User Interface, GUI Talk Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] when will folks start raising hell regarding Windows Phone 8?

Steve:

You are right. But beyond this, as I've pointed out before, all who fulminate about lack of accessibility must, in my view, keep in mind that if it were up to the marketplace alone, we, the blind, would *never* get much accessibility. Despite the delusions of many, we have very little collective power in the marketplace. Where we've gained accessibility (aside from a few specialized items marketed specifically for the blind), the only way we've gotten accessibility was when there was a legal lever we could invoke to force companies to consider accessibility. Yes, this is true even in Apple's case. And I'm not knocking Apple's sincerity. But we are a drop in the bucket in the larger marketplace and the sooner we recognize this, the better.

I remember many years ago when Harold Snyder told me he was talking with a Sony executive about accessible mobile phones. The guy told Harold that the only way most manufacturers were going to make accessible products (at least mainstream ones) was if they had the pants sued off them. And while cyberspace is beginning to be recognized as a valid establishment subject to Title III of the ADA, such is not generally the case with appliances with a few small exceptions. Else why would we need the Home Appliances Accessibility Act?

So to my way of thinking, the reason we're not raising hell over Windows Mobile 8 is that we have no real way of effectively doing so.

Mike Freeman

-----Original Message-----
From: gui-talk [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve Jacobson
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2012 7:39 AM
To: Discussion of the Graphical User Interface, GUI Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] when will folks start raising hell regarding Windows Phone 8?

Antonio,

I tend to agree.  It would be wrong for us to let Microsoft off the hook just because we have some good alternatives.  In this business, even big companies come and go, and particularly where there is an operating system into which accessibility can be built, we need to be sure it happens.
Especially in the newly emerging tablet market and the integration with phones and computers, it would be easy to find ourselves left out of a segment of that market, and that could be the segment a given employer uses.

The original note on this wondered why we didn't give Microsoft a worse time over this.  My earlier point is only that there are some indications that accessibility to Windows 8 on mobile devices is a part of their plan.  Allen is right that they have been pretty quiet in terms of public announcements, though and one would hope we would see something discussed reasonably soon.
However, I think it is worth noting that Windows 8 is a pretty big change with a lot of things happening.  It is not just new versions of the operating system for the PC and a separate one for mobile devices, it actually is a sort of joinging of PC, Tablets, and Mobile devices  under operating systems that are now connected, not unlike what Apple has done to have some common constructs between MACs, I Pads, I Pods and I phones.  This means it will take some time for Microsoft to get all their ducks in a row on this stuff.

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

On Fri, 30 Nov 2012 14:43:33 -0500, Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr. wrote:

>Hello all,

>Universal phone access may become important when one needs to make an
emergency phone call and all the have available is an  inaccessible phone.

>Antonio Guimaraes

>On Nov 28, 2012, at 11:44 PM, Mike Arrigo <n0oxy at charter.net> wrote:

>> That's what I think too. If Microsoft is unwilling to make their 
>> smart phone platform accessible, there are some good alternatives. Of 
>> course, they still should make it accessible, but we can definitely 
>> vote with
where we spend our money when it comes to phones.
>> On Nov 28, 2012, at 10:09 PM, Jude DaShiell <jdashiel at shellworld.net>
wrote:
>> 
>>> With Apple and Android available, why would anyone need Microsoft?On 
>>> Wed,
>>> 28 Nov 2012, Hoffman, Allen wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Lets be clear:
>>>> Windows 8 for personal computers is not that big a deal in 
>>>> accessibility terms and can work fine.  Windows 8 RT for some 
>>>> devices can be problematic but is a small subset of windows.
>>>> Windows 8 Phone
is the key challenge.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: gui-talk [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of 
>>>> Gerald Levy
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 8:19 AM
>>>> To: Discussion of the Graphical User Interface, GUI Talk Mailing 
>>>> List
>>>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] when will folks start raising hell 
>>>> regarding
Windows Phone 8?
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Actually, this backwards step in terms of accessibility should have 
>>>> been raised a year ago when Windows 8 was still in beta testing.
>>>> Everyone knew that it was going to be one big mess, but nobody at
the so-called "advocacy" 
>>>> organizations gave it much thought.  Now that the final product is 
>>>> here and Windows 7 computers are rapidly vanishing from store 
>>>> shelves, it is probably too late to do anything.  MS seems to be an
>>>> 800
pound gorilla that nobody can stop.  But based on preliminary sales figures, Windows 8 could be a bigger disaster for MS than Vista.  And last week, Steve Sinofsky, the MS design executive responsible for launching Vista,
Windows7 and Windows 8 abruptly left the company.  Some reports claim that he resigned before the you know what over Win 8 hits the fan.  Other reports assert that he was forced to resign because of personality clashes with MS CEO Steve Dallmer. 
>>>> In any case, Win 8 could well turn out to be the Edsel of operating
systems. 
>>>> All we can do is hope that it is such a colossal commercial flop 
>>>> that
MS will be forced to back peddle and release a more blind friendly OS with Windows 9.
>>>> 
>>>> Gerald
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Hoffman, Allen" <Allen.Hoffman at HQ.DHS.GOV>
>>>> To: "Discussion of the Graphical User Interface, GUI Talk Mailing List"

>>>> <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 7:56 AM
>>>> Subject: [gui-talk] when will folks start raising hell regarding
Windows Phone 8?
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> Given the terrible accessibility support in the windows Phone 8 
>>>>> release, not the first time for Microsoft, when will we, as a 
>>>>> community feel its time to raise some real hell over this 
>>>>> continuing lack of corporate responsibility?  Seems we focus a lot 
>>>>> on Kindle, and rightly so, but Microsoft should not be let off the 
>>>>> hook on this stuff.  In addition, when would we as a community 
>>>>> think its time to raise hell over getting authoring tools which 
>>>>> actually ensure accessibility of content produced rather than 
>>>>> impose nearly impossible additional work on authors?  I'm sure 
>>>>> battles must be picked, but am unclear on the strategy for picking
them of late.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
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>>>> 
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>>> 
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> -------
>>> jude <jdashiel at shellworld.net>
>>> Adobe fiend for failing to Flash
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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