[gui-talk] Voiceover
Chris G
chris at mysticplace.org
Tue Jul 28 08:36:28 UTC 2009
Hi,
Word has a document object model. this means when you scroll through a
document character by character and you land on the letter A, word tells
the screen reader that it's on an A, the font size and the color. The
screen reader does not need to guess and say, oh I think the user is
sitting on an A. It gets it directly from the application itself. The
DOM has nothing to do with going on the internet. VoiceOver uses
Safaris' DOM, so it doesn't need to guess because VoiceOver is talking
directly to the application, again it's not guessing. So VoiceOver
knows how to display the page to the end user without reformatting in a
buffer.
On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 22:46:55 -0400
"Sherri" <flmom2006 at gmail.com> wrote:
> That's the way I understood it too Joel. So you're not alone. *smile.
>
> Sherri
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joel Deutsch" <jdeutsch at dslextreme.com>
> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, July 27, 2009 8:42 PM
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>
>
> > Dear Chris G.,
> >
> > I'm not technologically sophisticated enough to be arguing with you about
> > this at the level I have a hunch you're talking about it, and in fact I'm
> > not arguing at all to begin with. Please note your first sentence in the
> > message to which I'm responding. As far as I know, what it says is what I
> > took it to mean in English. Which is that Voice Over takes something from
> > the Web. That means, again in English, that it goes onto the World Wide
> > Web,
> > searches for and downloads something. The way someone might "get" a music
> > file from the Web, for example.
> >
> > Now, if you actually were just talking in what for you is a conversational
> > casual way about this, which involves understandings and implications that
> > I
> > don't share with people who'd talk like this, then I guess you thought
> > you'd
> > said something like "it takes its model of operation from the way the Web
> > does something." Or something like that. Which is simply over my head if
> > someone doesn't lay it out fully in full grammar. There is not any problem
> > here on my part. I depend on clarity in what I'm reading, and from your
> > reassurance that I was overcomplicating my question, I can only infer that
> > you thought you'd said something that you actually hadn't. Again, I'm
> > speaking about something you might consider needlessly formal and overly
> > literal. but I'm not. it's just that you can't talk casually like that
> > with
> > people who don't share your knowledge to begin with as a context. And I am
> > not one of those people. I have no idea what underlies such a statement so
> > that it has meaning to someone who's more savvy about this stuff than I
> > am.
> > thus I can't learn anything at all when people talk shorthand to me about
> > something I'm unfamiliar with in the first place.
> >
> > Granted, maybe you'll say you thought anyone intelligent would know what
> > you
> > know to begin with, but that's just your idea, if that's what you're
> > thinking. I'm kind of sorry I asked. I know nothing about how screen
> > readers
> > work or what Word quote gets unquote from the Web. that doesn't make any
> > sense to me in the sense that I think of Word as a self-contained, offline
> > app that's on my hard drive and not downloading anything from the Web.
> > See?
> > You didn't mean that, I'm sure.
> >
> > Let's not go into this anymore. I'll learn all this some other way. Just
> > don't like being corrected when it's about writing clearly and explaining
> > something fully. In my career as a professional writer and editor, I had
> > technical writing jobs in which the research part consisted entirely of
> > being assigned to a software engineer who'd designed the application for
> > which I was writing a user's manual. I had to spend hours interviewing
> > guys
> > like this and finding different ways to ask them questions until they
> > realized that just because I was also an educated person did not mean I
> > was
> > like one of their tech-savvy pals and understood their shorthand. Then
> > we'd
> > find a figurative way for them to explain the concept to me, I'd translate
> > that into a straightforward explanation, then I'd use those notes to write
> > the documentation for the end users. It was sometimes an exhausting
> > process,
> > but I was good at it. If I were being paid, now is one of those situations
> > where I'd ask again and again until I broke through something and got an
> > understandable answer that I could rephrase in order to write the
> > instruction.
> >
> > Just too tired and sick to be so diplomatic that I just say "sorry, stupid
> > question, no problem, dude." Don't know if that makes sense to you, but
> > glad
> > I let myself explain. No offense intended. Again, I'm not arguing and I
> > don't want anyone flaming me for saying what I've said here.
> >
> > Joel
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Chris G" <chris at mysticplace.org>
> > To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> > Sent: Monday, July 27, 2009 3:13 PM
> > Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
> >
> >
> > Hi,
> > No,
> > Your making it more complicated.
> >
> > I was comparing the fact that voiceover uses the web browsers document
> > object model like window-eyes uses words document object model.
> >
> > Basically both programs talk to the application and don't guess.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 10:03:33 -0700
> > "Joel Deutsch" <jdeutsch at dslextreme.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Excuse me, because I'm a jaws user, and also a Word user. Why on earth
> >> would
> >> a screen reader program have to go onto the Web in the course of you
> >> using
> >> Word to compose a document?
> >>
> >> I have a feeling you must mean something specific without having said so.
> >> Like the way Word modified the thesaurus function or the dictionary
> >> function
> >> so that you're encouraged to activate controls that refer you to
> >> Word-related online sources? Is that what you meant? Because I have to
> >> presume that in the normal course of writing and editing in Word, you
> >> aren't
> >> "cloud computing" but simply using an app that's right there on your very
> >> own hard drive.
> >>
> >> Thanks for straightening me out if I need straightening out on this.
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Chris G" <chris at mysticplace.org>
> >> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> >> Sent: Monday, July 27, 2009 9:30 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
> >>
> >>
> >> If I'm not mistaken it gets it's information directly from the web
> >> browser, like Window-eyes does in word.
> >>
> >> VO talks to the web browser directly.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 10:43:40 -0400
> >> "albert griffith" <albertgriffith at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Do you have an understanding of how the technology is different from
> >> > the
> >> > other screen readers which use a virtual buffer to configure web pages?
> >> > I
> >> > think you said this contributed to their slow load time.
> >> >
> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> > From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> >> > On
> >> > Behalf Of Mike Arrigo
> >> > Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 6:18 PM
> >> > To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
> >> > Subject: Re: [gui-talk] [Bulk] Re: Voiceover
> >> >
> >> > Hi, I just meant that it doesn't read everything in a random order,
> >> > the page is presented the way you would expect.
> >> > On Jul 26, 2009, at 2:15 PM, tunecollector wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > What do you mean that it is presented in the right order? What's
> >> > > the right
> >> > > order?
> >> > >
> >> > > -----Original Message-----
> >> > > From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-
> >> > > bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> >> > > Behalf Of Mike Arrigo
> >> > > Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 12:08 PM
> >> > > To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
> >> > > Subject: [Bulk] Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
> >> > >
> >> > > Well, the information is presented in the right order, it's not
> >> > > jumbled the way it would be if you read the screen with the mouse
> >> > > cursor if that makes any sense.
> >> > > On Jul 26, 2009, at 1:55 PM, albert griffith wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > >> Having the latitude to hear just what you want can be a real curse.
> >> > >> Consider the difference between simple document presentation and
> >> > >> screen
> >> > >> layout when surfing the internet. Using the screen layout shows you
> >> > >> everything on the screen just as it's been designed to be seen but
> >> > >> it raises
> >> > >> havoc with efforts to browse efficiently in most cases. I'm glad
> >> > >> Freedom
> >> > >> Scientific gives me the choices but I find it's generally more
> >> > >> efficient to
> >> > >> let them determine how data is presented.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> -----Original Message-----
> >> > >> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-
> >> > >> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> >> > >> Behalf Of Mike Arrigo
> >> > >> Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 9:46 AM
> >> > >> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
> >> > >> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Well, at the beginning of each section, it says in Windows, this is
> >> > >> how things work. That should never have been there as the way
> >> > >> windows
> >> > >> does things is makes o difference in this case. I would say the main
> >> > >> difference between voice over and windows screen readers can be
> >> > >> summed
> >> > >> up this way. In windows, the screen reader usually automatically
> >> > >> indicates what you need to focus on. On the mac, the information is
> >> > >> still all available to you, however, voice over does not decide what
> >> > >> should be spoken. You use the voice over cursor keys to indicate
> >> > >> what
> >> > >> you want read. If you want a progress bar automatically announced
> >> > >> for
> >> > >> example, you can set your voice over cursor on it and voice over
> >> > >> will
> >> > >> continue to read it. When you've heard enough, simply move the
> >> > >> cursor
> >> > >> to another item. Yes, this does mean that there is more navigation
> >> > >> involved in using the mac, no question about that. However, this
> >> > >> allows the end user to decide what they want spoken instead of the
> >> > >> computer making those decisions. Neither approach is better, they're
> >> > >> just different.
> >> > >> On Jul 25, 2009, at 9:51 PM, albert griffith wrote:
> >> > >>
> >> > >>> Mike, I didn't think the author of the article was knocking the
> >> > >>> screen
> >> > >>> reader because it didn't perform like windows but that it was too
> >> > >>> stroke
> >> > >>> intensive and often didn't offer enough verbosity for adequate
> >> > >>> feedback.
> >> > >>> While Apple's product doesn't need to imitate Windows it should
> >> > >>> offer
> >> > >>> assistance that's convenient and adequate to the assigned task. It
> >> > >>> appears
> >> > >>> too many of the protocols required to complete tasks are lacking in
> >> > >>> one or
> >> > >>> both of these critical elements.
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> -----Original Message-----
> >> > >>> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-
> >> > >>> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> >> > >>> Behalf Of Mike Arrigo
> >> > >>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 7:48 PM
> >> > >>> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
> >> > >>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> That was the big mistake of this article, the concept seemed to be,
> >> > >>> windows does it this way, and if the mac does it differently, it's
> >> > >>> a
> >> > >>> problem. There are several similarities between the mac and
> >> > >>> windows,
> >> > >>> but expecting the mac to work the exact same way is a recipe for
> >> > >>> frustration. In my pod casts on blindcooltech, I try my best to
> >> > >>> make
> >> > >>> comparisons when they're appropriate, but also remind the listener
> >> > >>> that it's not windows, and therefore will not behave the same.
> >> > >>> On Jul 25, 2009, at 2:24 PM, Ray Foret jr wrote:
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>>> Granted, Voice over is well worth serious consideration; but,
> >> > >>>> Kevin,
> >> > >>>> there's
> >> > >>>> no need to get unpleasant about it. The NFB's perspective was
> >> > >>>> written from
> >> > >>>> a Windows users point of view because that's what most blind
> >> > >>>> computer users
> >> > >>>> are familiar with. Like it or not, this is so. I always hear
> >> > >>>> Voice
> >> > >>>> Over
> >> > >>>> users say "You can't compare the Mac to Windows.". Fair enough.
> >> > >>>> So, in
> >> > >>>> that case, why not truly help us Windows users get to know Voice
> >> > >>>> Over better
> >> > >>>> instead of just criticizing us just because we do what it is human
> >> > >>>> nature to
> >> > >>>> do; compare one thing to another. I grant you that the Mac is
> >> > >>>> worth
> >> > >>>> serious
> >> > >>>> consideration; and, If I wasn't still paying for this lap top, I
> >> > >>>> would
> >> > >>>> indeed very seriously look at Voice Over. Let me give you an
> >> > >>>> example of how
> >> > >>>> Voice Over users can be more helpful. In the NFB article, it is
> >> > >>>> stated that
> >> > >>>> when you press the space bar to check or uncheck items on a web
> >> > >>>> page, Voice
> >> > >>>> Over does not tell you whether an item is checked or unchecked. I
> >> > >>>> believe
> >> > >>>> this is true; however, there is another factor. The article then
> >> > >>>> goes on to
> >> > >>>> incorrectly state that there is no way without fumbling around, to
> >> > >>>> determine
> >> > >>>> whether an item is checked or not. As I understand it, there is a
> >> > >>>> special
> >> > >>>> Voice over key command which is used to check or uncheck items on
> >> > >>>> web pages.
> >> > >>>> When this key stroke is used, Voice over will tell you at once
> >> > >>>> whether an
> >> > >>>> item is checked or unchecked. Now, it's quite clear to me that
> >> > >>>> the
> >> > >>>> fellow
> >> > >>>> reviewing Voice Over for the NFB did not know this fact. but, I
> >> > >>>> ask
> >> > >>>> you,
> >> > >>>> why did not some voice over users help him with the trouble he was
> >> > >>>> having?
> >> > >>>> Why did the NFB not seek help from Voice Over users? Well, I
> >> > >>>> think
> >> > >>>> I can
> >> > >>>> answer that one. He wanted to deal with Voice Over from the stand
> >> > >>>> point of
> >> > >>>> a strictly out of the box experience. IN other words, his logic
> >> > >>>> was
> >> > >>>> this.
> >> > >>>> "Let me see what I can learn about Voice Over strictly from the
> >> > >>>> help
> >> > >>>> and
> >> > >>>> what ever documentation I can access on my own.". Fair enough;
> >> > >>>> but,
> >> > >>>> let's
> >> > >>>> think a bit. How many Windows users do you know who rely just on
> >> > >>>> the built
> >> > >>>> in help and what documentation they can read on their own? Well,
> >> > >>>> I
> >> > >>>> sure
> >> > >>>> don't know too many myself. Most Windows users go to one another
> >> > >>>> for help
> >> > >>>> and we help each other. Why, therefore, did the NFB fellow not
> >> > >>>> seek
> >> > >>>> help in
> >> > >>>> the same way from Mac users? A fair question I think. Frankly, I
> >> > >>>> am
> >> > >>>> perfectly willing to take a look at Voice over, not so much from
> >> > >>>> the
> >> > >>>> NFB
> >> > >>>> stand point; nor from a Voice Over defense point of view. My look
> >> > >>>> will be
> >> > >>>> based a bit on both and I will be wanting to get very objective
> >> > >>>> information.
> >> > >>>> I don't think I can count on either the NFB or Voice Over devotees
> >> > >>>> to be
> >> > >>>> truly objective; and, therefore, the best strategy I can think of
> >> > >>>> is
> >> > >>>> to take
> >> > >>>> the best of both and make your own decision.
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>> Sincerely,
> >> > >>>> The Constantly BAREFOOTED Ray
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>> "Old friend, what are you looking for? After those many years
> >> > >>>> abroad you
> >> > >>>> come With images you tended Under foreign skies Far away from your
> >> > >>>> own land"
> >> > >>>> George Seferis
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>> Phone or Fax::
> >> > >>>> +1 (985) 360-3614
> >> > >>>> Cell:
> >> > >>>> +1 (985) 791-2938
> >> > >>>> e-mail:
> >> > >>>> rforetjratcomcastdotnet
> >> > >>>> Skype Name:
> >> > >>>> barefootedray
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >> > >>>> From: "Kevin Fjelsted" <kfjelsted at gmail.com>
> >> > >>>> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> >> > >>>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 12:49 PM
> >> > >>>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>> VoiceOver is absolutely awesome. A superb resource for reading
> >> > >>>> details
> >> > >>>> from a community perspective is http://www.lioncourt.com.
> >> > >>>> I thhink that the exciting thing about VoiceOver is that the stars
> >> > >>>> are
> >> > >>>> aligned for us. 1) Apple is making record profits and is applying
> >> > >>>> resources in support of VoiceOver access across there entire
> >> > >>>> product
> >> > >>>> line including mobile devices. The fact that the NFB technology
> >> > >>>> center
> >> > >>>> chooses to publish inaccuracies and propaganda
> >> > >>>> which is so misleading must mean that the existing companies like
> >> > >>>> Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to rally
> >> > >>>> resources
> >> > >>>> to
> >> > >>>> quash VoiceOver usage. When ever we see established organizations
> >> > >>>> becoming defensive it is time to really dig under the covers and
> >> > >>>> ask
> >> > >>>> the reasons why. In my opinion every blind person who relies on
> >> > >>>> accessibility technology for computers and mobile devices needs to
> >> > >>>> look at VoiceOver as well as the other technologies and
> >> > >>>> proactively
> >> > >>>> push the envelope so that we can create momentum for transparency.
> >> > >>>> My
> >> > >>>> question is, why aren't all of the vendors emulating the
> >> > >>>> approach
> >> > >>>> of
> >> > >>>> VoiceOver, which is to have built in accessibility to the device
> >> > >>>> out
> >> > >>>> of the box without charging extra? WHen I can pay $190 for a cell
> >> > >>>> phone that has built in accessibility I find that amazing compared
> >> > >>>> to
> >> > >>>> spending money for a cell phone and then having to turn around and
> >> > >>>> buy
> >> > >>>> a 3rd party access solution that in many cases only works half
> >> > >>>> baked.
> >> > >>>> Not only do I get a cell phone for $190 but I get all the built in
> >> > >>>> apps talking clock, calculator, maps, weather forecasting, text
> >> > >>>> messaging, address book management, calendaring including syncing
> >> > >>>> with
> >> > >>>> other calendars. For years blind people have taken the position
> >> > >>>> that
> >> > >>>> touch screens are the enemy and that we can't use them. Yet the
> >> > >>>> IPhone
> >> > >>>> with VoiceOver is totally dependent on the touch screen. I do
> >> > >>>> everything with the touch screen look at email, update my
> >> > >>>> calendar,
> >> > >>>> make phone calls,.... -Kevin Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 10:26 AM,
> >> > >>>> tunecollector<tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >> > >>>>> This subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has
> >> > >>>>> anyone
> >> > >>>>> used
> >> > >>>>> it more intensively since then? Is it ready for prime time? What
> >> > >>>>> are its
> >> > >>>>> drawbacks.
> >> > >>>>>
> >> > >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >> > >>>>> gui-talk mailing list
> >> > >>>>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> >> > >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> >> > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> >> > >>>>> for
> >> > >>>>> gui-talk:
> >> > >>>>>
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>
> >> > >
> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail
> >> > >>> .
> >> > >>> com
> >> > >>>>>
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>> --
> >> > >>>> Kevin Fjelsted
> >> > >>>> B Harris, Inc.
> >> > >>>> http://www.bharrisinc.com
> >> > >>>> kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
> >> > >>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
> >> > >>>> Phone: 612.424.7333 EX. 301
> >> > >>>> Direct: 612.424.7332
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>> _______________________________________________
> >> > >>>> gui-talk mailing list
> >> > >>>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> >> > >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> >> > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> >> > >>>> for
> >> > >>>> gui-talk:
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>
> >> > >
> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/rforetjr%40comcast
> >> > >>> .net
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>> _______________________________________________
> >> > >>>> gui-talk mailing list
> >> > >>>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> >> > >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> >> > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> >> > >>>> for gui-talk:
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>
> >> > >
> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/n0oxy%40charter.ne
> >> > >>> t
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> _______________________________________________
> >> > >>> gui-talk mailing list
> >> > >>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> >> > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> >> > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> >> > >>> for
> >> > >>> gui-talk:
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>
> >> > >
> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/albertgriffith%40s
> >> > >>> bcglobal.net
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> _______________________________________________
> >> > >>> gui-talk mailing list
> >> > >>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> >> > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> >> > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> >> > >>> for gui-talk:
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>
> >> > >
> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/n0oxy%40charter.ne
> >> > >> t
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >> _______________________________________________
> >> > >> gui-talk mailing list
> >> > >> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> >> > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> >> > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> >> > >> for
> >> > >> gui-talk:
> >> > >>
> >> > >
> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/albertgriffith%40s
> >> > >> bcglobal.net
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >> _______________________________________________
> >> > >> gui-talk mailing list
> >> > >> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> >> > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> >> > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> >> > >> for gui-talk:
> >> > >>
> >> > >
> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/n0oxy%40charter.ne
> >> > > t
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > _______________________________________________
> >> > > gui-talk mailing list
> >> > > gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> >> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> >> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >> > > gui-talk:
> >> > >
> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/tunecollector%40sb
> >> > > cglobal.net
> >> > >
> >> > >
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> >> > >
> >> > > _______________________________________________
> >> > > gui-talk mailing list
> >> > > gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> >> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> >> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> >> > > for gui-talk:
> >> > >
> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/n0oxy%40charter.ne
> >> > t
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > gui-talk mailing list
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> >> > bcglobal.net
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
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> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> The home of the Mystic Place blog and podcast.
> >> www.mysticplace.info
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> >>
> >>
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> >>
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> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/chris%40mysticplace.org
> >
> >
> > --
> > The home of the Mystic Place blog and podcast.
> > www.mysticplace.info
> > RSS: feeds.feedburner.com/mysticplacebp
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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