[gui-talk] Voiceover

Sherri flmom2006 at gmail.com
Tue Jul 28 02:46:55 UTC 2009 

That's the way I understood it too Joel. So you're not alone. *smile.

Sherri
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Joel Deutsch" <jdeutsch at dslextreme.com>
To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, July 27, 2009 8:42 PM
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover


> Dear Chris G.,
>
> I'm not technologically sophisticated enough to be arguing with you about
> this at the level I have a hunch you're talking about it, and in fact I'm
> not arguing at all to begin with. Please note your first sentence in the
> message to which I'm responding. As far as I know, what it says is what I
> took it to mean in English. Which is that Voice Over takes something from
> the Web. That means, again in English, that it goes onto the World Wide 
> Web,
> searches for and downloads something. The way someone might "get" a music
> file from the Web, for example.
>
> Now, if you actually were just talking in what for you is a conversational
> casual way about this, which involves understandings and implications that 
> I
> don't share with people who'd talk like this, then I guess you thought 
> you'd
> said something like "it takes its model of operation from the way the Web
> does something." Or something like that. Which is simply over my head if
> someone doesn't lay it out fully in full grammar. There is not any problem
> here on my part. I depend on clarity in what I'm reading, and from your
> reassurance that I was overcomplicating my question, I can only infer that
> you thought you'd said something that you actually hadn't. Again, I'm
> speaking about something you might consider needlessly formal and overly
> literal. but I'm not. it's just that you can't talk casually like that 
> with
> people who don't share your knowledge to begin with as a context. And I am
> not one of those people. I have no idea what underlies such a statement so
> that it has meaning to someone who's more savvy about this stuff than I 
> am.
> thus I can't learn anything at all when people talk shorthand to me about
> something I'm unfamiliar with in the first place.
>
> Granted, maybe you'll say you thought anyone intelligent would know what 
> you
> know to begin with, but that's just your idea, if that's what you're
> thinking. I'm kind of sorry I asked. I know nothing about how screen 
> readers
> work or what Word quote gets unquote  from the Web. that doesn't make any
> sense to me in the sense that I think of Word as a self-contained, offline
> app that's on my hard drive and not downloading anything from the Web. 
> See?
> You didn't mean that, I'm sure.
>
> Let's not go into this anymore. I'll learn all this some other way. Just
> don't like being corrected when it's about writing clearly and explaining
> something fully. In my career as a professional writer and editor, I had
> technical writing jobs in which the research part consisted entirely of
> being  assigned to a software engineer who'd designed the application for
> which I was writing a user's manual. I had to spend hours interviewing 
> guys
> like this and finding different ways to ask them questions until they
> realized that just because I was also an educated person did not mean I 
> was
> like one of their tech-savvy pals and understood their shorthand. Then 
> we'd
> find a figurative way for them to explain the concept to me, I'd translate
> that into a straightforward explanation, then I'd use those notes to write
> the documentation for the end users. It was sometimes an exhausting 
> process,
> but I was good at it. If I were being paid, now is one of those situations
> where I'd ask again and again until I broke through something and got an
> understandable answer that I could rephrase in order to write the
> instruction.
>
> Just too tired and sick to be so diplomatic that I just say "sorry, stupid
> question, no problem, dude." Don't know if that makes sense to you, but 
> glad
> I let myself explain. No offense intended. Again, I'm not arguing and I
> don't want anyone flaming me for saying what I've said here.
>
> Joel
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Chris G" <chris at mysticplace.org>
> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, July 27, 2009 3:13 PM
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>
>
> Hi,
> No,
> Your making it more complicated.
>
> I was comparing the fact that voiceover uses the web browsers document
> object model like window-eyes uses words document object model.
>
> Basically both programs talk to the application and don't guess.
>
>
>
> On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 10:03:33 -0700
> "Joel Deutsch" <jdeutsch at dslextreme.com> wrote:
>
>> Excuse me, because I'm a jaws user, and also a Word user. Why on earth
>> would
>> a screen reader program have to go onto the Web in the course of you 
>> using
>> Word to compose a document?
>>
>> I have a feeling you must mean something specific without having said so.
>> Like the way Word modified the thesaurus function or the dictionary
>> function
>> so that you're encouraged to activate controls that refer you to
>> Word-related online sources? Is that what you meant? Because I have to
>> presume that in the normal course of writing and editing in Word, you
>> aren't
>> "cloud computing" but simply using an app that's right there on your very
>> own hard drive.
>>
>> Thanks for straightening me out if I need straightening out on this.
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Chris G" <chris at mysticplace.org>
>> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, July 27, 2009 9:30 AM
>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>>
>>
>> If I'm not mistaken it gets it's information directly from the web
>> browser, like Window-eyes does in word.
>>
>> VO talks to the web browser directly.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 10:43:40 -0400
>> "albert griffith" <albertgriffith at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>> > Do you have an understanding of how the technology is different from 
>> > the
>> > other screen readers which use a virtual buffer to configure web pages?
>> > I
>> > think you said this contributed to their slow load time.
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> > On
>> > Behalf Of Mike Arrigo
>> > Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 6:18 PM
>> > To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>> > Subject: Re: [gui-talk] [Bulk] Re: Voiceover
>> >
>> > Hi, I just meant that it doesn't read everything in a random order,
>> > the page is presented the way you would expect.
>> > On Jul 26, 2009, at 2:15 PM, tunecollector wrote:
>> >
>> > > What do you mean that it is presented  in the right order?  What's
>> > > the right
>> > > order?
>> > >
>> > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-
>> > > bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> > > Behalf Of Mike Arrigo
>> > > Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 12:08 PM
>> > > To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>> > > Subject: [Bulk] Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>> > >
>> > > Well, the information is presented in the right order, it's not
>> > > jumbled the way it would be if you read the screen with the mouse
>> > > cursor if that makes any sense.
>> > > On Jul 26, 2009, at 1:55 PM, albert griffith wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> Having the latitude to hear just what you want can be a real curse.
>> > >> Consider the difference between simple document presentation and
>> > >> screen
>> > >> layout when surfing the internet.  Using the screen layout shows you
>> > >> everything on the screen just as it's been designed to be seen but
>> > >> it raises
>> > >> havoc with efforts to browse efficiently in most cases.  I'm glad
>> > >> Freedom
>> > >> Scientific gives me the choices but I find it's generally more
>> > >> efficient to
>> > >> let them determine how data is presented.
>> > >>
>> > >> -----Original Message-----
>> > >> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-
>> > >> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> > >> Behalf Of Mike Arrigo
>> > >> Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 9:46 AM
>> > >> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>> > >> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>> > >>
>> > >> Well, at the beginning of each section, it says in Windows, this is
>> > >> how things work. That should never have been there as the way 
>> > >> windows
>> > >> does things is makes o difference in this case. I would say the main
>> > >> difference between voice over and windows screen readers can be
>> > >> summed
>> > >> up this way. In windows, the screen reader usually automatically
>> > >> indicates what you need to focus on. On the mac, the information is
>> > >> still all available to you, however, voice over does not decide what
>> > >> should be spoken. You use the voice over cursor keys to indicate 
>> > >> what
>> > >> you want read. If you want a progress bar automatically announced 
>> > >> for
>> > >> example, you can set your voice over cursor on it and voice over 
>> > >> will
>> > >> continue to read it. When you've heard enough, simply move the 
>> > >> cursor
>> > >> to another item. Yes, this does mean that there is more navigation
>> > >> involved in using the mac, no question about that. However, this
>> > >> allows the end user to decide what they want spoken instead of the
>> > >> computer making those decisions. Neither approach is better, they're
>> > >> just different.
>> > >> On Jul 25, 2009, at 9:51 PM, albert griffith wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >>> Mike, I didn't think the author of the article was knocking the
>> > >>> screen
>> > >>> reader because it didn't perform like windows but that it was too
>> > >>> stroke
>> > >>> intensive and often didn't offer enough verbosity for adequate
>> > >>> feedback.
>> > >>> While Apple's product doesn't need to imitate Windows it should
>> > >>> offer
>> > >>> assistance that's convenient and adequate to the assigned task.  It
>> > >>> appears
>> > >>> too many of the protocols required to complete tasks are lacking in
>> > >>> one or
>> > >>> both of these critical elements.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> -----Original Message-----
>> > >>> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-
>> > >>> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> > >>> Behalf Of Mike Arrigo
>> > >>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 7:48 PM
>> > >>> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>> > >>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>> > >>>
>> > >>> That was the big mistake of this article, the concept seemed to be,
>> > >>> windows does it this way, and if the mac does it differently, it's 
>> > >>> a
>> > >>> problem. There are several similarities between the mac and 
>> > >>> windows,
>> > >>> but expecting the mac to work the exact same way is a recipe for
>> > >>> frustration. In my pod casts on blindcooltech, I try my best to 
>> > >>> make
>> > >>> comparisons when they're appropriate, but also remind the listener
>> > >>> that it's not windows, and therefore will not behave the same.
>> > >>> On Jul 25, 2009, at 2:24 PM, Ray Foret jr wrote:
>> > >>>
>> > >>>> Granted, Voice over is well worth serious consideration; but,
>> > >>>> Kevin,
>> > >>>> there's
>> > >>>> no need to get unpleasant about it.  The NFB's perspective was
>> > >>>> written from
>> > >>>> a Windows users point of view because that's what most blind
>> > >>>> computer users
>> > >>>> are familiar with.  Like it or not, this is so.  I always hear
>> > >>>> Voice
>> > >>>> Over
>> > >>>> users say "You can't compare the Mac to Windows.".  Fair enough.
>> > >>>> So, in
>> > >>>> that case, why not truly help us Windows users get to know Voice
>> > >>>> Over better
>> > >>>> instead of just criticizing us just because we do what it is human
>> > >>>> nature to
>> > >>>> do; compare one thing to another.  I grant you that the Mac is
>> > >>>> worth
>> > >>>> serious
>> > >>>> consideration; and, If I wasn't still paying for this lap top, I
>> > >>>> would
>> > >>>> indeed very seriously look at Voice Over.  Let me give you an
>> > >>>> example of how
>> > >>>> Voice Over users can be more helpful.  In the NFB article, it is
>> > >>>> stated that
>> > >>>> when you press the space bar to check or uncheck items on a web
>> > >>>> page, Voice
>> > >>>> Over does not tell you whether an item is checked or unchecked.  I
>> > >>>> believe
>> > >>>> this is true; however, there is another factor.  The article then
>> > >>>> goes on to
>> > >>>> incorrectly state that there is no way without fumbling around, to
>> > >>>> determine
>> > >>>> whether an item is checked or not.  As I understand it, there is a
>> > >>>> special
>> > >>>> Voice over key command which is used to check or uncheck items on
>> > >>>> web pages.
>> > >>>> When this key stroke is used, Voice over will tell you at once
>> > >>>> whether an
>> > >>>> item is checked or unchecked.  Now, it's quite clear to me that 
>> > >>>> the
>> > >>>> fellow
>> > >>>> reviewing Voice Over for the NFB did not know this fact.  but, I
>> > >>>> ask
>> > >>>> you,
>> > >>>> why did not some voice over users help him with the trouble he was
>> > >>>> having?
>> > >>>> Why did the NFB not seek help from Voice Over users?  Well, I 
>> > >>>> think
>> > >>>> I can
>> > >>>> answer that one.  He wanted to deal with Voice Over from the stand
>> > >>>> point of
>> > >>>> a strictly out of the box experience.  IN other words, his logic
>> > >>>> was
>> > >>>> this.
>> > >>>> "Let me see what I can learn about Voice Over strictly from the
>> > >>>> help
>> > >>>> and
>> > >>>> what ever documentation I can access on my own.".  Fair enough;
>> > >>>> but,
>> > >>>> let's
>> > >>>> think a bit.  How many Windows users do you know who rely just on
>> > >>>> the built
>> > >>>> in help and what documentation they can read on their own?  Well, 
>> > >>>> I
>> > >>>> sure
>> > >>>> don't know too many myself.  Most Windows users go to one another
>> > >>>> for help
>> > >>>> and we help each other.  Why, therefore, did the NFB fellow not
>> > >>>> seek
>> > >>>> help in
>> > >>>> the same way from Mac users?  A fair question I think.  Frankly, I
>> > >>>> am
>> > >>>> perfectly willing to take a look at Voice over, not so much from
>> > >>>> the
>> > >>>> NFB
>> > >>>> stand point; nor from a Voice Over defense point of view.  My look
>> > >>>> will be
>> > >>>> based a bit on both and I will be wanting to get very objective
>> > >>>> information.
>> > >>>> I don't think I can count on either the NFB or Voice Over devotees
>> > >>>> to be
>> > >>>> truly objective; and, therefore, the best strategy I can think of
>> > >>>> is
>> > >>>> to take
>> > >>>> the best of both and make your own decision.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> Sincerely,
>> > >>>> The Constantly BAREFOOTED Ray
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> "Old friend, what are you looking for?  After those many years
>> > >>>> abroad you
>> > >>>> come With images you tended Under foreign skies Far away from your
>> > >>>> own land"
>> > >>>> George Seferis
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> Phone or Fax::
>> > >>>> +1 (985) 360-3614
>> > >>>> Cell:
>> > >>>> +1 (985) 791-2938
>> > >>>> e-mail:
>> > >>>> rforetjratcomcastdotnet
>> > >>>> Skype Name:
>> > >>>> barefootedray
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> ----- Original Message -----
>> > >>>> From: "Kevin Fjelsted" <kfjelsted at gmail.com>
>> > >>>> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> > >>>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 12:49 PM
>> > >>>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> VoiceOver is absolutely awesome. A superb resource for reading
>> > >>>> details
>> > >>>> from a community perspective is http://www.lioncourt.com.
>> > >>>> I thhink that the exciting thing about VoiceOver is that the stars
>> > >>>> are
>> > >>>> aligned for us. 1) Apple is making record profits and is applying
>> > >>>> resources in support of  VoiceOver access across there entire
>> > >>>> product
>> > >>>> line including mobile devices. The fact that the NFB technology
>> > >>>> center
>> > >>>> chooses to publish inaccuracies and propaganda
>> > >>>> which is so misleading must mean that the existing companies like
>> > >>>> Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to rally 
>> > >>>> resources
>> > >>>> to
>> > >>>> quash VoiceOver usage. When ever we see established organizations
>> > >>>> becoming defensive it is time to really dig under the covers and
>> > >>>> ask
>> > >>>> the reasons why. In my opinion every blind person who relies on
>> > >>>> accessibility technology for computers and mobile devices needs to
>> > >>>> look at VoiceOver as well as the other technologies and 
>> > >>>> proactively
>> > >>>> push the envelope so that we can create momentum for transparency.
>> > >>>> My
>> > >>>> question is, why aren't  all of the vendors  emulating the 
>> > >>>> approach
>> > >>>> of
>> > >>>> VoiceOver, which is to have built in accessibility to the device
>> > >>>> out
>> > >>>> of the box without charging extra? WHen I can pay $190 for a cell
>> > >>>> phone that has built in accessibility I find that amazing compared
>> > >>>> to
>> > >>>> spending money for a cell phone and then having to turn around and
>> > >>>> buy
>> > >>>> a 3rd party access solution that in many cases only works half
>> > >>>> baked.
>> > >>>> Not only do I get a cell phone for $190 but I get all the built in
>> > >>>> apps talking clock, calculator, maps, weather forecasting, text
>> > >>>> messaging, address book management, calendaring including syncing
>> > >>>> with
>> > >>>> other calendars. For years blind people have taken the position
>> > >>>> that
>> > >>>> touch screens are the enemy and that we can't use them. Yet the
>> > >>>> IPhone
>> > >>>> with VoiceOver is totally dependent on the touch screen. I do
>> > >>>> everything with the touch screen look at email, update my 
>> > >>>> calendar,
>> > >>>> make phone calls,....   -Kevin Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 10:26 AM,
>> > >>>> tunecollector<tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> > >>>>> This subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has
>> > >>>>> anyone
>> > >>>>> used
>> > >>>>> it more intensively since then? Is it ready for prime time? What
>> > >>>>> are its
>> > >>>>> drawbacks.
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________
>> > >>>>> gui-talk mailing list
>> > >>>>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> > >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> > >>>>> for
>> > >>>>> gui-talk:
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>
>> > >
>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail
>> > >>> .
>> > >>> com
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> -- 
>> > >>>> Kevin Fjelsted
>> > >>>> B Harris, Inc.
>> > >>>> http://www.bharrisinc.com
>> > >>>> kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
>> > >>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
>> > >>>> Phone:   612.424.7333 EX. 301
>> > >>>> Direct:  612.424.7332
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> _______________________________________________
>> > >>>> gui-talk mailing list
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>> > >>>
>> > >>
>> > >
>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/rforetjr%40comcast
>> > >>> .net
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> _______________________________________________
>> > >>>> gui-talk mailing list
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>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/n0oxy%40charter.ne
>> > >>> t
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>> _______________________________________________
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>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/albertgriffith%40s
>> > >>> bcglobal.net
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>> _______________________________________________
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>> > >>
>> > >>
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>> > >>
>> > >>
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>> > >
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