[gui-talk] Kindle books
Lydia Grier
lydiagrier at comcast.net
Thu Dec 11 16:35:37 UTC 2008
AsAs the saying goes "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them
drink". Some people pick up things faster than other, but it does not all
ways reflect on the teacher's teaching ability.
----- Original Message -----
From: "albert griffith" <albertgriffith at sbcglobal.net>
To: "'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 7:04 AM
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>I had a trained and dedicated teacher and most of the students still read
> braille at speeds considerably slower than their sighted counterparts.
> This
> doesn't mean braille shouldn't be taught. However, people new to braille
> should have an informed perspective on what kind of results they might
> expect. I read 200 words per minute which is quite fast for a braille
> reader but I felt there was something lacking in me because most of my
> sighted friends could finish books much quicker than I. I read little
> braille now because what I want to read isn't produced in that format.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Cindy Handel
> Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 11:45 PM
> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>
> I agree that each person is an individual. But, it seems that there are a
> lot of excuses about why people can't read Braille. Maybe, if teachers
> would just start to teach it to students, a lot more people would learn;
> rather than finding excuses why they can't do it.
>
> Cindy
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "tribble" <lauraeaves at yahoo.com>
> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 8:28 PM
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>
>
> the point is that each person is an individual with his/her own needs,
> and
> not every blind person has numbness in the fingers, like many diabetics.
> You have to introduce braille, like any coping mechanism, on a case by
> case
> basis.
> --le
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Baracco, Andrew W" <Andrew.Baracco at va.gov>
> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 12:27 PM
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>
>
> Rapid Braille reading has been achieved by many who learned it as
> children, but the number of children who are blind and not otherwise
> disabled is low indeed. The vast majority of people who lose their sight
> are over 65, and often have other conditions such as arthritis and
> diabetes. For many, no amount of training will result in being able to
> read Braille at a fast rate.
>
> Andy
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On Behalf Of tribble
> Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 10:37 PM
> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>
> I think one of the reasons it is hard for older persons to learn to read
> braille is developing the sensitivity in the fingers to recognize the
> dot patterns.
> It is easy for a sighted person to learn to read braille visually. If
> that person becomes blind, it is much harder -- even with no added
> disability -- for that person to read the same dot patterns with the
> fintertips.
> I learned braille at age 13 and have only used it for labels and speech
> outlines and such as I was always able to read magnified print. So I
> never practiced the braille at that early age when I think I could have
> adapted more easily.
> Anyway, I am still working on it, but again, technology has come to the
> rescue with screen readers that read at ridiculous speeds, and I have
> had no problem learning to adapt to that -- so why is it so hard to read
> braille?
> Practice practice practice... ugh.
> I was a math major back in college and have wanted to go back and pick
> that up again. I chose that major because it didn't require a large
> volume of reading -- you can pack more in a couple pages of math symbols
> than in 40 pages in some other subject. But alas, braille math is a
> beast, almost as bad as braille music, and tactile math is still very
> much a work in progress -- there is an ongoing discussion of this on the
> blindmath list on nfbnet.org John Gardener from ViewPlus, who make the
> Tiger braille embossers, sent me on request a copy of some pages of math
> created bya system called DotsPlus, that essentially mixes Nemeth style
> math braille code with tactile graphical representations of things like
> the fraction line or the square root symbol, or the integral sign. This
> puts the braille in a form that is much more similar to the printed
> equations in math texts. The only drawback is that you have to have a
> Tiger embosser to print it and there is no refreshable display that can
> display it.
>
> Anyway, that is one thing I've been looking into as I feel it is a
> shame to just let all my math background go to waste, and I think it is
> important for math education for blind students to be much less arduous.
> Transcribing math into braille is difficult, but hopefully emerging
> technology can make it easier.
> --le
>
>
> Happy reading all.
> --le
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 4:53 PM
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>
>
> Doug,
>
> I would add one more thing to your well written note. People who learn
> to
> read later in life, whether print or braille, tend to not normally
> achieve
> the kind of reading
> speeds that are achieved by people who learn to read at a young age.
> This
> also contributes to reducing the average reading speed of braille
> readers in
> a manner
> that is disproportionate to people reading print since blindness hits
> many
> people as adults. One must also consider the higher percentage of
> persons
> with other
> disabilities.
>
> What this means is that some people probably do have to evaluate the
> role of
> braille in their lives. Older blind adults will probably not achieve
> the
> kind of reading
> speeds that would be useful for reading a novel unless they decide that
> it
> is a real priority. However, in some cases, learning braille to read
> labels
> or to do certain
> kinds of detail work such as mathematics or programming has much less to
> do
> with average reading speed.
>
> I tend to agree that braille is not the same as reading print, but it is
>
> closer to reading print than is recorded material because of the
> conveying
> information at multiple
> levels at once, test, spelling, and punctuation. Even with DAISY, I
> find
> that I can scan an article in braille faster unless the DAISY structure
> is
> very consistent and at
> the paragraph level. Print does allow the eye to be drawn to
> information
> the author has defined as important in ways that braille can't. Font
> size
> and style as well as
> color provide ways of defining information in a way that provides
> multiple
> ways of conveying information that is not as convenient in braille.
>
> I can see reasons for adults who do not know braille to evaluate their
> needs, but I really believe that braille is a must for kids who are
> blind if
> they cannot see well
> enough to read print well. I am not saying that they may not read both,
>
> that can work, too.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Steve Jacobson
>
> On Tue, 09 Dec 2008 17:20:37 -0500, Doug Lee wrote:
>
>>Let's be careful to distinguish facts from drawn conclusions, if we
>>plan to address this Braille versus print speed issue here...
>
>>Fact: On average, print readers read faster than Braille readers at
>>this time.
>
>>Fact: On average, blind people that read Braille don't read it as fast
>>as 250 words per minute.
>
>>If anyone doubts those two, I'm all ears; but I acknowledge them as
>>known facts.
>
>>Now, as to what they mean...
>
>>Those facts do not, I say with emphasis, NOT, mean that Braille is
>>slow by definition, due to mechanics or anything else. That's just
>>one possible explanation of the facts, and I think the very existence
>>of people that read Braille quickly rules out that explanation. We
>>have proven that Braille can be read at up to 400 words per minute by
>>having people actually do it.
>
>>So why so few such examples of fast Braille readers? I think it's
>>because there's little emphasis on teaching fast Braille reading
>>nowadays. That has nothing to do with Braille's effectiveness as a
>>tool.
>
>>The reason I am making such an effort to separate fact from conclusion
>>is that not doing so has, historically, been the root of a number of
>>famous misunderstandings, discriminations, and outright denials of
>>individual and collective success. Recall the many arguments waged
>>over race versus level of education: We know by now that color of
>>skin does not affect ability to learn, but in our history, this
>>obvious truth was not always accepted. Recall the 70% (or greater)
>>unemployment level of blind people: We know that blindness does not
>>directly stop us from working. Even consider that reading speeds and
>>even the ability to read at all is much lower in certain countries
>>than here: We know that this is not due to some mysterious
>>geomagnetic interferance causing those countries' citizens to fail
>>reading tests. :)
>
>>I assert that the reason Braille appears slow by average example is
>>that it is, by average example, not taught sufficiently to produce a
>>different result. I assert that this is the same sort of cause one
>>should see for the other examples I just gave: imbalance caused by
>>lack of opportunity. I assert these things, and I wonder, can I call
>>these "facts" yet, or are they still in dispute?
>
>>On Tue, Dec 09, 2008 at 03:56:47PM -0500, albert griffith wrote:
>>While they are some real fast Braille readers here's an example to put
> the
>>issue in perspective. In 1980 Arkansas Enterprises For The Blind
> trained
>>people to work for both the social Security Administration and the IRS.
> To
>>qualify people had to read Braille at 100 words per minute and at least
> a
>>third of the applicants didn't meet the minimum standard. All of the
>>applicants had high school diplomas and at least half were college
> degreed.
>>The mechanics of reading Braille are quite slow by comparison to print
>>reading for most Braille users. Of course there will be exceptions.
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On
>>Behalf Of Baracco, Andrew W
>>Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 12:03 PM
>>To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>>Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>
>>The fastest Braille reader might be able to keep up with the average
>>print reader. As was said before, it's a whole different experience.
>>The Braille reader can only perceive what is under his or her fingers.
>>The sighted reader can perceive the whole page at once.
>
>>Andy
>>
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>On Behalf Of Cindy Handel
>>Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 6:50 PM
>>To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>>Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>
>>Well, reading print may be fast for some sighted people. But, I've
>>known blind people who have been able to read Braille so quickly that
>>they couldn't talk fast enough to keep up with their Braille reading.
>>So, it all depends on the time you devote to it and the technique you
>>use to read, either print or Braille.
>
>>Cindy
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "tribble" <lauraeaves at yahoo.com>
>>To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 4:15 PM
>>Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>
>
>>The nice thing about reading visually is to be able to see spellings
> and
>>page layout and pictures, if any. Also, you can mark passages or write
>>notes
>>in the margins.
>>But is it faster? I think it is actually -- I don't speak for myself as
>>I
>>never had good reading speed due to my declining vision, but I know
>>people
>>who polish off books in a couple of days that take me a lot longer
>>reading
>>either online or listening to a recording or DAISY book.
>>I think DAISY is the best thing that has come along in a while. now if
>>the
>>volunteers at bookshare would use the features a bit more effectively,
>>it
>>would make navigating the book easier. I mean, sometimes an entire book
>>has
>>only one navigation element marking the start of the book. So all you
>>really
>>have is your current reading position, which lasts from session to
>>session,
>>and the start of the book to jump to, and that's all. Very terse
>>markup.
>>oh well -- One of these days I'm going to scan and markup a book and
>>submit
>>it to bookshare and then I will be able to complain legitimately.
>>Happy reading.
>>--le
>
>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Baracco, Andrew W" <Andrew.Baracco at va.gov>
>>To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 12:05 PM
>>Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>
>
>>Many sighted people who I know enjoy reading visually, and do not like
>>to be read to. They may listen to an audio book while driving,
> cooking,
>>etc., but generally prefer the experience of reading visually.
>
>>Andy
>
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>On Behalf Of Joel Deutsch
>>Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 9:48 AM
>>To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>>Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>
>>Cindy,
>
>>This portable device, the Kindle, wasn't developed in the spirit of
> what
>>you and I think of as portable devices to play writing to us. It's a
>>different concept, meant to hold many books that can be called up by
> the
>>sighted reader and looked at. The effect is like having one book-sized
>>plastic device that sort of looks like a real book, which a person can
>>hold and read the text on the screen. Those who have really reported
>>enjoying the Kindle, for instance, have reported taking them on long
>>airplane journeys and having the ability to read from any of the many
>>books that they may have purchased online and loaded onto the device.
>>They would not have preferred to be listening to somebody reading one
> or
>>another of those books. They like to read print, and listening to audio
>>literature may be for them at best an occasional convenience for times
>>when they have their hands full and are otherwise occupied, say while
>>driving a car or exercising at the gym.
>>itotherwsie literatture wo7uld They are simply reading the print, just
>>as if it were a real book. It has not been recorded for them by a
>>reader. If they wanted audio literature, themselves, and they sometimes
>>do, they'd get the recorded stuff from audible and other vendors, just
>>as we do, although without the issues of blind accessibility to the
>>controls of the playback units.
>
>>Anyway, as the list of book titles Amazon produces in Kindle form along
>>with the print books of the same titles, this list may overlap with
> some
>>of the recorded titles we are accustomed to seeing offered, but there
>>will be a lot more books that haven't wound up produced in commercial
>>audio or by the NLS.
>>If I could read visually, I'd at least consider this device, although
>>I'd think of it as a bit of a luxury. But its list of titles is likely
>>to be a lot more inclusive, and a good bit less dependent on nothing
> but
>>sales ranking, than the titles that are chosen for audio production,
> and
>>which we can already get for ourselves. It's a unique new book
> marketing
>>model, not that easily evaluated or understood in blind book terms.
>
>>Hope that helps.
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Cindy Handel" <cindy425 at verizon.net>
>>To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 8:45 AM
>>Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>
>
>>I guess I just don't understand, with all the other sources for books
>>out
>>there, which are available to us, why try to make this particular
> device
>>accessible. If it was the only portable means of reading books, I
> could
>>understand why we'd want to have access. But, there's so much out
>>there,
>>already.
>
>>Cindy
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
>>To: <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 11:01 PM
>>Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>
>
>>Like the Everly Brothers sang: "Dream; dream dream dream!"
>
>>Mike
>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: Ted Shelly <tshelly at optonline.net>
>>To: 'Ationfbnet GUI Talk Mailing List' <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>Date: 2008/12/05 15:33:27
>>Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>
>>>
>>>
>>> What Amazon needs to do is to make their Kindle book format an open
>>> standard
>>> that other device manufactures can build into their products. If for
>>> instance the iphone could use the books they would sell a lot more
>>books.
>>> Then devices for the blind like the Victor Stream could build that
>>into
>>> their products as well. This would open up a huge new source of
>>reading
>>> material for us. I imagine this will happen eventually, but it may
>>take a
>>> while. Amazon is not an easy company to contact, but someone
>>mentioned
>>> they
>>> had a line to the Kindle developer. Maybe we could start a
>>> letter/every-mail
>>> writing campaign.
>>>
>>> Ted
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>On
>>> Behalf Of Cindy Handel
>>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 9:54 PM
>>> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>>>
>>> What would be the advantage of adding text to speech to the Kindle
>>Reader;
>>> especially since we already have the Victor Stream? The reader,
>>itself,
>>> is
>>> already more expensive than the Stream. Adding speech would increase
>>the
>>> cost.
>>>
>>> Cindy
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Loy" <loyrg2845 at gmail.com>
>>> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 7:10 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>>>
>>>
>>> I corresponded with the developer of this product and asked if it
>>would be
>>> possible to add text to speech to this product and he replied that he
>>> would
>>> look into it.
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Baracco, Andrew W" <Andrew.Baracco at va.gov>
>>> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:47 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>>>
>>>
>>> It is the sighted guy's equivalant of the Victor Stream. The display
>>> looks just like a printed book, to give a familiar frame of
> reference.
>>>
>>> Andy
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>> On Behalf Of Cindy Handel
>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 2:21 PM
>>> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>>>
>>> Well, I think the idea is that you can purchase and download books
>>from
>>> Amazon; put them on this reader and take several books along with
>>> y...j as we do with the Very Rather Stream. I'm sure it is the
>>software,
>>> in the reader, which makes it work. But, you have to have the little
>>> screen and controls to read the books.
>>>
>>> Cindy
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "tribble" <lauraeaves at yahoo.com>
>>> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 3:30 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>>>
>>>
>>> so apparently you need to have this hardware reader in order to read
> a
>>> kindle book, which is in some proprietary format? I would think there
>>> would
>>> be software that could do the job just as well...
>>> Thanks.
>>> -comle
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Cindy Handel" <cindy425 at verizon.net>
>>> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 5:38 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Kindle is a hardware reader. It looks like a book, but has a screen
>>> instead
>>> of pages. There are controls to allow the reader to turn pages and
> to
>>> move
>>> from one book to another. That's really about all I know about it.
>>> But, it
>>> has no speech and is not accessible. It's also more expensive than
>>the
>>> Victor Stream.
>>>
>>> Cindy
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "tribble" <lauraeaves at yahoo.com>
>>> To: "Multiple recipients of NFBnet GUI-TALK Mailing List"
>>> <gui-talk at NFBnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 11:49 PM
>>> Subject: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi all -- Has anyone had experience good or bad reading books on
>>Kindle
>>> sold
>>> by amazon?
>>> Is Kindle a software reader, or a hardware device like an ipod?
>>> Is it accessible? I'd like to get an armload of books but since I
>>would
>>> be
>>> scanning them anyway, I would prefer getting them in some electronic
>>> format.
>>> What is Kindle anyway?
>>> I guess I'll go back to amazon and read up on it, but I wanted to ask
>>> the
>>> list first.
>>> Thanks in advance.
>>> Oh, and the books aren't on bookshare -- I checked.
>>> -comle
>>>
>>>
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>>"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds
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