[gui-talk] Kindle books
Doug Lee
dgl at dlee.org
Wed Dec 10 09:12:02 UTC 2008
Actually I think I was wrong: dot5 v in Grade III is "love," I think.
So we would have the Department of Human Loves. Not much better. :-)
Grade III is mostly for note taking; you don't find many books written
in it.
On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 12:19:13AM -0600, tribble wrote:
Sometimes reading a little slower improves comprehension -- I mean, when I
was a print reader I used a CCTV and read (frankly) too slow for my taste,
but in so doing I picked up things like spelling and writing technique in
the various things I read -- not just surface content. This helped me in
the long run. Rather than scan something several times to get the meaning, I
studied it carefully once or twice and had a good understanding of it for
future reference.
BTW: Doug, is dot5v in grade 3 really equivalent to "live"? I thought I
knew grade3, but I obviously missed that one...
Yes, rearranging dots can make some funny meanings.
Happy reading.
--le
----- Original Message -----
From: "albert griffith" <albertgriffith at sbcglobal.net>
To: "'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 4:50 PM
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
I attended school with 25 blind students and our instructor having a blind
child herself emphasized reading and writing skills. Our comprehension was
better than the sighted students we occasionally had classes with but our
reading speed suffered by comparison. Admittedly, this is a small sample but
it and associations with blind people over a lifetime have confirmed the
conclusions I mentioned in an earlier post. Will my data stand up to
rigorous inquiry? No. My sample is too small just to mention one obvious
flaw. However, I think it's worth mentioning that many blind adults still
do read at slower rates than their sighted counterparts and I believe
they've had time for self improvement if that were possible.
-----Original Message-----
From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Doug Lee
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 5:21 PM
To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
Let's be careful to distinguish facts from drawn conclusions, if we
plan to address this Braille versus print speed issue here...
Fact: On average, print readers read faster than Braille readers at
this time.
Fact: On average, blind people that read Braille don't read it as fast
as 250 words per minute.
If anyone doubts those two, I'm all ears; but I acknowledge them as
known facts.
Now, as to what they mean...
Those facts do not, I say with emphasis, NOT, mean that Braille is
slow by definition, due to mechanics or anything else. That's just
one possible explanation of the facts, and I think the very existence
of people that read Braille quickly rules out that explanation. We
have proven that Braille can be read at up to 400 words per minute by
having people actually do it.
So why so few such examples of fast Braille readers? I think it's
because there's little emphasis on teaching fast Braille reading
nowadays. That has nothing to do with Braille's effectiveness as a
tool.
The reason I am making such an effort to separate fact from conclusion
is that not doing so has, historically, been the root of a number of
famous misunderstandings, discriminations, and outright denials of
individual and collective success. Recall the many arguments waged
over race versus level of education: We know by now that color of
skin does not affect ability to learn, but in our history, this
obvious truth was not always accepted. Recall the 70% (or greater)
unemployment level of blind people: We know that blindness does not
directly stop us from working. Even consider that reading speeds and
even the ability to read at all is much lower in certain countries
than here: We know that this is not due to some mysterious
geomagnetic interferance causing those countries' citizens to fail
reading tests. :)
I assert that the reason Braille appears slow by average example is
that it is, by average example, not taught sufficiently to produce a
different result. I assert that this is the same sort of cause one
should see for the other examples I just gave: imbalance caused by
lack of opportunity. I assert these things, and I wonder, can I call
these "facts" yet, or are they still in dispute?
On Tue, Dec 09, 2008 at 03:56:47PM -0500, albert griffith wrote:
While they are some real fast Braille readers here's an example to put the
issue in perspective. In 1980 Arkansas Enterprises For The Blind trained
people to work for both the social Security Administration and the IRS. To
qualify people had to read Braille at 100 words per minute and at least a
third of the applicants didn't meet the minimum standard. All of the
applicants had high school diplomas and at least half were college degreed.
The mechanics of reading Braille are quite slow by comparison to print
reading for most Braille users. Of course there will be exceptions.
-----Original Message-----
From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Baracco, Andrew W
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 12:03 PM
To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
The fastest Braille reader might be able to keep up with the average
print reader. As was said before, it's a whole different experience.
The Braille reader can only perceive what is under his or her fingers.
The sighted reader can perceive the whole page at once.
Andy
-----Original Message-----
From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Cindy Handel
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 6:50 PM
To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
Well, reading print may be fast for some sighted people. But, I've
known blind people who have been able to read Braille so quickly that
they couldn't talk fast enough to keep up with their Braille reading.
So, it all depends on the time you devote to it and the technique you
use to read, either print or Braille.
Cindy
----- Original Message -----
From: "tribble" <lauraeaves at yahoo.com>
To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 4:15 PM
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
The nice thing about reading visually is to be able to see spellings and
page layout and pictures, if any. Also, you can mark passages or write
notes
in the margins.
But is it faster? I think it is actually -- I don't speak for myself as
I
never had good reading speed due to my declining vision, but I know
people
who polish off books in a couple of days that take me a lot longer
reading
either online or listening to a recording or DAISY book.
I think DAISY is the best thing that has come along in a while. now if
the
volunteers at bookshare would use the features a bit more effectively,
it
would make navigating the book easier. I mean, sometimes an entire book
has
only one navigation element marking the start of the book. So all you
really
have is your current reading position, which lasts from session to
session,
and the start of the book to jump to, and that's all. Very terse
markup.
oh well -- One of these days I'm going to scan and markup a book and
submit
it to bookshare and then I will be able to complain legitimately.
Happy reading.
--le
----- Original Message -----
From: "Baracco, Andrew W" <Andrew.Baracco at va.gov>
To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 12:05 PM
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
Many sighted people who I know enjoy reading visually, and do not like
to be read to. They may listen to an audio book while driving, cooking,
etc., but generally prefer the experience of reading visually.
Andy
-----Original Message-----
From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Joel Deutsch
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 9:48 AM
To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
Cindy,
This portable device, the Kindle, wasn't developed in the spirit of what
you and I think of as portable devices to play writing to us. It's a
different concept, meant to hold many books that can be called up by the
sighted reader and looked at. The effect is like having one book-sized
plastic device that sort of looks like a real book, which a person can
hold and read the text on the screen. Those who have really reported
enjoying the Kindle, for instance, have reported taking them on long
airplane journeys and having the ability to read from any of the many
books that they may have purchased online and loaded onto the device.
They would not have preferred to be listening to somebody reading one or
another of those books. They like to read print, and listening to audio
literature may be for them at best an occasional convenience for times
when they have their hands full and are otherwise occupied, say while
driving a car or exercising at the gym.
itotherwsie literatture wo7uld They are simply reading the print, just
as if it were a real book. It has not been recorded for them by a
reader. If they wanted audio literature, themselves, and they sometimes
do, they'd get the recorded stuff from audible and other vendors, just
as we do, although without the issues of blind accessibility to the
controls of the playback units.
Anyway, as the list of book titles Amazon produces in Kindle form along
with the print books of the same titles, this list may overlap with some
of the recorded titles we are accustomed to seeing offered, but there
will be a lot more books that haven't wound up produced in commercial
audio or by the NLS.
If I could read visually, I'd at least consider this device, although
I'd think of it as a bit of a luxury. But its list of titles is likely
to be a lot more inclusive, and a good bit less dependent on nothing but
sales ranking, than the titles that are chosen for audio production, and
which we can already get for ourselves. It's a unique new book marketing
model, not that easily evaluated or understood in blind book terms.
Hope that helps.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cindy Handel" <cindy425 at verizon.net>
To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 8:45 AM
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
I guess I just don't understand, with all the other sources for books
out
there, which are available to us, why try to make this particular device
accessible. If it was the only portable means of reading books, I could
understand why we'd want to have access. But, there's so much out
there,
already.
Cindy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
To: <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 11:01 PM
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
Like the Everly Brothers sang: "Dream; dream dream dream!"
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: Ted Shelly <tshelly at optonline.net>
To: 'Ationfbnet GUI Talk Mailing List' <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Date: 2008/12/05 15:33:27
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>
>
> What Amazon needs to do is to make their Kindle book format an open
> standard
> that other device manufactures can build into their products. If for
> instance the iphone could use the books they would sell a lot more
books.
> Then devices for the blind like the Victor Stream could build that
into
> their products as well. This would open up a huge new source of
reading
> material for us. I imagine this will happen eventually, but it may
take a
> while. Amazon is not an easy company to contact, but someone
mentioned
> they
> had a line to the Kindle developer. Maybe we could start a
> letter/every-mail
> writing campaign.
>
> Ted
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On
> Behalf Of Cindy Handel
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 9:54 PM
> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>
> What would be the advantage of adding text to speech to the Kindle
Reader;
> especially since we already have the Victor Stream? The reader,
itself,
> is
> already more expensive than the Stream. Adding speech would increase
the
> cost.
>
> Cindy
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Loy" <loyrg2845 at gmail.com>
> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 7:10 PM
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>
>
> I corresponded with the developer of this product and asked if it
would be
> possible to add text to speech to this product and he replied that he
> would
> look into it.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Baracco, Andrew W" <Andrew.Baracco at va.gov>
> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:47 AM
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>
>
> It is the sighted guy's equivalant of the Victor Stream. The display
> looks just like a printed book, to give a familiar frame of reference.
>
> Andy
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On Behalf Of Cindy Handel
> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 2:21 PM
> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>
> Well, I think the idea is that you can purchase and download books
from
> Amazon; put them on this reader and take several books along with
> y...j as we do with the Very Rather Stream. I'm sure it is the
software,
> in the reader, which makes it work. But, you have to have the little
> screen and controls to read the books.
>
> Cindy
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "tribble" <lauraeaves at yahoo.com>
> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 3:30 PM
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>
>
> so apparently you need to have this hardware reader in order to read a
> kindle book, which is in some proprietary format? I would think there
> would
> be software that could do the job just as well...
> Thanks.
> -comle
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Cindy Handel" <cindy425 at verizon.net>
> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 5:38 AM
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>
>
> Hi,
>
> Kindle is a hardware reader. It looks like a book, but has a screen
> instead
> of pages. There are controls to allow the reader to turn pages and to
> move
> from one book to another. That's really about all I know about it.
> But, it
> has no speech and is not accessible. It's also more expensive than
the
> Victor Stream.
>
> Cindy
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "tribble" <lauraeaves at yahoo.com>
> To: "Multiple recipients of NFBnet GUI-TALK Mailing List"
> <gui-talk at NFBnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 11:49 PM
> Subject: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>
>
> Hi all -- Has anyone had experience good or bad reading books on
Kindle
> sold
> by amazon?
> Is Kindle a software reader, or a hardware device like an ipod?
> Is it accessible? I'd like to get an armload of books but since I
would
> be
> scanning them anyway, I would prefer getting them in some electronic
> format.
> What is Kindle anyway?
> I guess I'll go back to amazon and read up on it, but I wanted to ask
> the
> list first.
> Thanks in advance.
> Oh, and the books aren't on bookshare -- I checked.
> -comle
>
>
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--
Doug Lee dgl at dlee.org http://www.dlee.org
SSB BART Group doug.lee at ssbbartgroup.com
http://www.ssbbartgroup.com
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds
new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' ('I found it!') but rather 'hmm....
that's funny...'" -- Isaac Asimov
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