[Reader-users] Program Philosophy Changes Needed
Gashel, James
JGashel at NFB.ORG
Fri Dec 1 04:43:08 CST 2006
Hi Evelyn and all:
It is a bit too soon to talk about specifics, but the "early adopters"
such as those on this list, will always be valued as upgrades and new
technology become possible. The way you should think about this is that
you have bought into the process of the development and evolution of a
technology, rather than just buying a device that you will be stuck with
forever while those who wait get all of the advantages of more modern
technology. The joy of being an early adopter is that you get to help
to shape the technology while also enjoying the immediate benefits it
can provide. Those who hang back a bit may find the technology of the
future useful, but the rest of us will be miles ahead in having used it
from the beginning.
I feel quite certain that you will be very pleased with the arrangements
you will be able to make in moving up with this technology, rather than
standing still.
-----Original Message-----
From: reader-users-bounces at nfbnet.org
[mailto:reader-users-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Evelyn Weckerly
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 10:32 AM
To: Kurzweil National Federation of the Blind Reader users list
Subject: Re: [Reader-users] Program Philosophy Changes Needed
Jim,
As development continues and hardware and cameras develop, I hope that
you willdo something similar to what Humanware does with the Braille
Notes and Voice Notes. What they do is not inexpensive, but they allow
their current customers to pugrade hardware at a substantial discount so
that they are not penalized for being earlier adopters of the
technology. In other words, when you come to the place where development
direction requires bettery equipment for users to take full advantage, I
hope you will not make it too hard for us to keep up. Although migrating
from the Braille NOte I bought as a dealer demo about two years ago was
not inexpensive, I did it because I could pay the price of a Voice Note,
keep my current Braille display, and pay only about one thrid the price
of the MPower.
I am not writing this to get into a discussion of other companies'
products. This is just an example. I remember that Deane Blazie did
something similar with some of his products.
I'm expressing this concern early on becsause I know that, sooner or
later, there will be developments in both hardware and software that
will really require newer hardware to be fully effective. As you have
said, this is only the beginning.
Cordially,
Evelyn
At 07:09 AM 11/30/2006, you wrote:
>Hi Cory:
>
>Most of the key people on both the development and marketing teams
>watch the messages on this list very carefully. I am probably the only
>one among them who actually responds. All of the other participants
>who are comentators on this list are Reader users. Obviously we value
>their views and suggestions on the direction this product should take.
>
>Our philosophy is that we owe it to our customers to listen very
>carefully to what they are saying to us. Although the view is
>certainly not unanimous, they seem to be telling us to concentrate our
>development efforts on a product that is focused on being a reading
>machine. That we are doing, but we are not unaware of developments and
>possibilities in regard to related technology. If anything, it seems
>to me that the views you have expressed fall pretty much in line with
>our somewhat longer range philosophy about this product. If the
>technology had allowed it, I suspect that the first release version of
>this reader would have been a single unit, rather than a unit which
>combines two distinctive primary hardware components. The choice we
>were facing in the earlier stages of development, not that far back in
>time, was to wait for PDAs and cameras to catch up to what we needed,
>or to jump out there with a product as soon as we could find a camera
>and PDA that we could combine and engineer to do the job. We chose
>this latter course so at least we could have a Reading machine. This
>will not be the last version of this device, and we are definitely
>listening to everyone to help us plan the future direction. Although
>you are not a current user of the technology, your comments are valued
>as well. Perhaps one day we will be successful enough in your view
that you will join us as a user.
>I sure hope that won't be too far off.
>
>As for the uses of this device, I would say that it is far more than a
>mail reader. In my own experience, I have had access to scanning and
>text-to-speech technology ever since I worked with Ray Kurzweil on the
>first reading machine 32 years ago. However, although I could have had
>that kind of technology immediately at hand during all of that time, I
>have rarely used it. As for this device, I find that I need to use it
>at least some of the time every day. The reason I use it is to
>accomplish productive work, not just to play with the technology. This
>device has been a life-changing experience for me. It wouldn't have
>been that way if all it would do is to read my mail.
>
>So, the bottom line is that I sure hope you don't actually leave the
>list. I realize that some of our reader users may not agree with the
>advice you are giving us, but the perspective you are providing does
>need to be considered. This may mean that you decide not to post so
>much, but I think you will find that continuing to know about the
>development and direction of this product will be valuable to you in
>the future. Remember, this is only the beginning!
>
>
>Thanks, J. G.
>
>******************************************
>
>James Gashel
>Executive Director for Strategic Initiatives NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE
>BLIND 1800 Johnson Street Baltimore, Maryland 21230
>Telephone: (410) 659-9314, ext. 2227
>Fax: (410) 685-5653
>Email: jgashel at nfb.org
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: reader-users-bounces at nfbnet.org
>[mailto:reader-users-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cory Martin
>Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 11:13 PM
>To: 'Kurzweil National Federation of the Blind Reader users list'
>Subject: Re: [Reader-users] Program Philosophy Changes Needed
>
>Damn Straight, that'd be one awesome microwave! Know where I can buy
>one of those ones? Bet they're pretty expensive.
>I'm going to stop posting on this list very likely because it seems
>that new ideas aren't welcome and are only torn apart and it seems to
>be everyone's personal mission to make fun of every idea put forth. I
>put forward my suggestions because I wanted to contribute in a positive
>way, and don't really care one way or another if an idea is good or
>bad, it's simply that; an idea, and whether it finds it's way in to a
>finished product or not is for the most part irrelevant. I also like
>to watch user postings and the responses of the manufacturer to judge
>the level of interest overall. But as a friend of mine pointed out
>this product is very expensive especially for the purpose of simply
>scanning one's mail or some short documents on the fly, and although
>I'm not arguing that the cost is likely justified, with that comes a
>measure of responsibility to at least listen to people's ideas and put
>some half-concious effort in to making them reality. Which ones come
>first or second, third or forth or not at all really doesn't matter. I
>don't even own one of these devices, but I can honestly say that if the
>whole point of it is to scan some business cards or short documents,
>then I'll pass, especially if there will never be any plans to provide
>it as a stand-alone application. The Quicklink-Pen Elite can provide
>similar functionality although in a much more limited way at a fraction
>of the cost.
>Please understand I'm not trying to compare two products or say that
>one is better than the other, if anything the Reader if compared to the
>Quicklink-Pen for example, would probably win hands down, but that's
>not the point. What the Reader can do today is impressive and I'm not
>disputing that, but our world is progress just like the microwave with
>the one-function knob to the one that can sense the temperature of
>what's being cooked and adjust accordingly. That is the happy and sad
>reality of society and technology today. There are different people as
>well, those who just want it to work and those who wanna push the
>limits. I tend to be one of those to push the limits. Many products
>produced for the visually impaired are designed to be "blind friendly",
>and although that's great in many ways, it's limiting in others. We
>have enough limits on ourselves already, we don't need to add more on
>our own heads.
> So fine, I suggested that the system be made more open so it
>could be installed and used with other software/hardware to make an
>all-in-one device. I have heard nothing but opposition to it so
>therefore I'm done.
>Afterall it was only a suggestion. It's not like those who liked to
>use it as a reader and nothing else still couldn't just because I had
>mine playing MP3's in the background while reading just because I know
>how to use the Pocket Media Player. As to the statement about
>supporting non-Reader issues in Tech support I can tell you that I work
>in support for an internet service provider, and I get more calls than
>I can stand from people who are absolutely clueless about computers and
>in my opinion have no business owning one, wanting me to help them with
>their Web Cam or printer, or if their computer won't start or if
>they're absolutely dense and can't read type or spell, or can't use a
>mouse (and I have to talk in terms as though I were speaking to a
>child), and the solution of "refer to original equipment manufacturer"
>applies every time. Just out of curiosity, if a user of the Reader
>calls up tech support saying that their unit won't power on ETC and if
>it is shipped back to the company for repair, is the repair done in
>house? Or is it passed on to Dell or whoever actually makes the PDA
>being adapted? It's not like the Reader is it's own product in the
>first place, it's a mainstream PDA modified with a special case and
>software package which keeps the user from getting to the actual Pocket
>Windows interface itself.
>So maybe before one tries to cut down other's ideas or suggestions
>maybe try to think about the vision they actually have and decide if
>it's such a terrible one or not. Keep in mind there are PDA's out
>there with camera's built in, and even though the quality of such
>devices isn't the best at the moment and thus would not be practical
>for a pocket reader, in the future when 8MP cameras are integrated in a
>device the need for an external camera would no longer be there, and
>obviously this reality will happen, time is only the undetermined
>factor, and I doubt it'll take all that long. So for those of you
>opposed to new ideas about technology try to hold back on being so
>critical because even a concept as a pocket reader would have been
>laughed at as impossible five years ago, and here it is today.
>Cory
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: reader-users-bounces at nfbnet.org
>[mailto:reader-users-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of MARK FELIZ
>Sent: November 29, 2006 8:24 PM
>To: reader-users at nfbnet.org
>Subject: Re: [Reader-users] Program Philosophy Changes Needed
>
>Hello Nick:
>
>Now, Now, remember, we live in a I want society. We not only expect our
>microwave to cook our meal in ten seconds or less but we expect the
>microwave to get the food out of the freezer, unwrap, defrost, cook,
>keep it
>
>warm till we are good and ready to eat, remind us our meal is waiting,
>serve
>
>the meal in proportions to our body mass, and ...
>
>What do you think?
>
>Mark Feliz
>
>
>
>
> >From: "W. Nick Dotson" <nickdotson at bellsouth.net>
> >Reply-To: Kurzweil National Federation of the Blind Reader users
> >list<reader-users at nfbnet.org>
> >To: "Kurzweil National Federation of the Blind Reader users
> >list"<reader-users at nfbnet.org>
> >Subject: Re: [Reader-users] Program Philosophy Changes Needed
> >Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 12:28:17 -0600
> >
> >There are "General Purpose" and "Special Purpose" systems. Your
> >desktop or
>
> >notebook PC is General Purpose in nature and intent. The PDA in the
> >KNFBR is being used specifically to provide a hardware platform on
> >which images captured by the camera are to be recognized, and the
> >recognized text read aloud. What don't you understand about the
> >nature
>
> >of this "Limited Purpose" system, as exemplified in the name for it,
> >the Kurzweol National Federation of the Blind Reader"?
> >
> >Nick
> >
> >On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 10:23:50 -0700, Cory Martin wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> > As for CPU processing power, when it comes to this software
> > like
>any
> > software should there not be a min system requirements list? Like
> >say, you
> > can't run it on a PDA that isn't at least 500 or 600 MHZ with 200
> >Megs of
> > on-board memory and some form of storage media? Ovbiously if I had
> >a
>
> >4-year
> > old PDA and wanted to run the reader on that I might be asking for
> >a lot,
>
> >I
> > just feel that a device is wasted if all it can do is run one
> >program
>
> >like
> > the reader. There should at least be a means to exit the
> >application
>
> >so the
> > PDA can be used normally, such as with MSP installed to provide
> >speech to
> > other areas.
> > As for batch scanning, I believe it deserves a place on a new
> > features request list if maybe a lower place then say, being able
> >to
> > recognize black on white text which is, a more important and much
> >more
> > fundamental requirement.
> > My only suggestion was that the scanning software not dominate
>the
> > PDA so that it can be used for other things. That way those who
> > want
>
> >to use
> > it strictly for reading can do that and those who want to integrate
> >it with
> > other add-ons or software have that option.
> > Cory
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: reader-users-bounces at nfbnet.org
> > [mailto:reader-users-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mike Freeman
> > Sent: November 29, 2006 8:45 AM
> > To: Kurzweil National Federation of the Blind Reader users list
> > Subject: Re: [Reader-users] Program Philosophy Changes Needed
> >
> > Corey:
> >
> > The problem is procesor power. It takes a helluva lot of power to
> > analyze images. So a run-of-the-mil PDA won't cut it.
> >
> > As far as batch processing goes, there's an inherent inconsistency
> >or,
> > rather, assumption in the thinking of many: that is that one will
> >always get
> >
> > the orientation right as one scans pages. To a certain extent, this
> >is a
> > matter of practice. But there's always the odd page that doesn't
> >scan
>
> >well.
> > And one won't know until long afterward. And, given the limitations
> >of the
> > PDA and the constraints upon the complexity of the Reader software,
> >it's not
> >
> > feasible at present to go back and edit pages on the PDA. Moreover,
> >it's
> > like the old saw of not getting a job without experience while
> >needing a job
> >
> > to get that experience. One needs to analyze the image to know if
> > one
>
> > got
>
> >a
> > good scan and this is the antithesis of batch processing.
> >
> > Finally, NFB does not have unlimited time, manpower or resources;
> > we must put these to work in areas where other devices are not
> > available. While reading books with the Reader would be nice, there
> > are other systems that
>
> >do
> >
> > this more efficiently. In my view, Reader development should
> >concentrate on
> > making the Reader do what other devices -- yes, even money
> >identifiers --
> > don't do. And the more one complicates a device, the more avenues
> >one
> > introduces for errors. This is great for tech support people but
> >not so
> > great for the rest of us!
> >
> > That's my take, anyway.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Cory Martin" <cory_martin at shaw.ca>
> > To: "'Kurzweil National Federation of the Blind Reader users list'"
> > <reader-users at nfbnet.org>
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 9:29 PM
> > Subject: [Reader-users] Program Philosophy Changes Needed
> >
> >
> > Hello List,
> > First off before I get started I would like to point out that I do
> > not have one of these devices so thus cannot comment on the overall
> > functionality of the device itself. From what I understand of it
> > the
>
> >Reader
> > sounds like a very exciting advancement in the way the Visually
> >Impaired can
> > access information. Keep in mind that the Visually Impaired are
> >not really
> > capable of reading or writing technically anyway and without
> >technology such
> > as this that problem becomes almost unsolvable. We finally have a
> >device
> > that is hand held no longer tying one to a desk and flatbed
scanner.
> > When it comes to features why would a batch option be anything but
> >a
> > bad idea? In all reality it's not likely one would take the time
> >to scan
>
> >a
> > book with the reader unless they could have a way of orienting the
> >camera
> > correctly to the page with each page, but just because it might not
> >work
> > doesn't mean it shouldn't be there to use if needed.
> > My last and final comment is directed more at the developers of the
> > Reader itself. It's not really anything more than a suggestion
> >but, for
> > those of us who do not need a device that is simplified down to one
> > interface, why not design the reader in such a way so that it can
> >be an
> > add-on application to the rest of an already existing PDA? I have
> >a PDA and
> > it works fine but I know I wouldn't want to carry a PDA strictly
> >for
> > scanning documents, one specifically for GPS and one for general
> >media and
> > note taking functions. Can you imagine trying to remember to
> >charge all the
> > batteries? I believe that there should be a version of the KNFB
> >reader made
> > available for one who wishes to add it to a standard PDA based on a
> > licensing system, and then one can provide their own input device,
> >such as a
> > recommended camera perhaps sold with the software optionally. Just
> >a
> > thought...A PDA should be universal.
> > Cory
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: reader-users-bounces at nfbnet.org
> > [mailto:reader-users-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Rob Monitor
> > Sent: November 28, 2006 10:14 PM
> > To: Kurzweil National Federation of the Blind Reader users list
> > Subject: Re: [Reader-users] Joined today
> >
> > Hi, I was wondering how the optacon worked I seen one back in the
> >early 80's
> >
> > but did not have the chants to really look at it...Some one was
> >using it
> > in a ofice and when I asked about it they said they just got it
> >and did not
> >
> > know that much about it...
> > thanks rob
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Evelyn Weckerly" <weckerly at i2k.com>
> > To: "Kurzweil National Federation of the Blind Reader users list"
> > <reader-users at nfbnet.org>
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 9:54 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Reader-users] Joined today
> >
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I had an Optacon thanks to the Mott Foundation. I had it from
> > 1980 > until I got version 2 of what is now k1000. I finally sold
> > it to > someone who desperately wanted a spare because his job
> > depended on > that technology.
> > >
> > > Evelyn
> > >
> > > At 07:55 PM 11/28/2006, you wrote:
> > >>Hi users of the new Kurzweil NFB reader, Ken Lawrence Central
>Chapter.
> > >>Just
> > >>joined the list today looking forward to the dialog and the
> > latest
>
> >news
> > >>concerning the reader. I'm a bit of an old timer so I go back
> >to
> > >>the Optacon's
> > >>glory days. just wondering how many users of the new reader
> >used to use
> > >>the
> > >>Optacon? if you did, hope you saw the item in the October
> >monitor
>
> >about
> > >>the
> > >>Optacon survey. they're looking for users, and people who don't
> >use
> > >>there
> > >>Optacon any more. they are thinking of putting nonuse Optacons
> >back in
> > >>to
> > >>circulation. if they get enough response to it, they may
> >relaunch
> > >>the Optacon
> > >>with updated circuitry to make it possible for it to read modern
> > >>print formats
> > >>and font sizes used today. forget the email address off hand,
> >but
> > >>does anyone
> > >>on list remember what happened to the voice output that was
> >developed at
> > >>around the same time as the First Kurzweil readers that was
> >mente for the
> > >>Optacon? also on a related question, oops, 2 questions, will
> > >>future portable
> > >>readers have a Braille display incorporated in to it? and also
> >if
>
> >a Car
> > >>is
> > >>developed for the blind, it seems a form of the Kurzweil reader
> >could be
> > >>incorporated in to it so that a Street sign could be read or
> >even
> > >>the menu at a drive
> > >>through. Yeah, it's a great time to be blind Huh? Ken.
> > >>
> > >>I pledge to participate actively in the efforts of the national
> > >>federation
> > >>of the blind to achieve equality, opportunity, and security for
> >the
> > >>blind; to
> > >>support the policies and programs of the federation; and abide
> >by it's
> > >>constitution.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>_______________________________________________
> > >>Reader-users mailing list
> > >>Reader-users at nfbnet.org
> > >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/reader-users
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >--
> >----
>-
> > ----
> >
> >
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> > >
> >
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