<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" ><tr><td valign="top" style="font: inherit;"><DIV>Arielle,</DIV>
<DIV>I so agree. Maybe you and I can work with a university to do this research. I have thought about it a long time, but the overwhelming responsiblity of my job ---- 80+ work hours a week, has prevented me from doing so. I am changing jobs next year so hope to further research in the field on subjects such as this.<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Brush Script MT'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 18pt"><FONT color=#4040ff> Denise </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Brush Script MT'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 18pt"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV>Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D. <BR>Coordinator for Blind/VI students at ESD105<BR>Teacher of the Blind & Visually Impaired<BR>509-969-3622</DIV><BR><BR>--- On <B>Tue, 6/8/10, Allison Hilliker (NFBA) <I><nfbarizona@gmail.com></I></B> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><BR>From: Allison Hilliker (NFBA) <nfbarizona@gmail.com><BR>Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR>To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division List" <pibe-division@nfbnet.org><BR>Date: Tuesday, June 8, 2010, 6:22 AM<BR><BR>
<DIV class=plainMail><BR>All,<BR><BR>I think that Arielle has a good point in her message below. Since some<BR>educators are heavily focused on research and quantatative proof, , maybe<BR>that's what we should give them. I agree that research shouldn't be a<BR>replacement for common sense, but since common sense is clearly lacking,<BR>we may have to resort to research. ?And why not? It can't hurt to have<BR>some studies and stats to back us up when we advocate for our students. I<BR>know that some folks have an inate distrust of research, but if its<BR>conducted with an underlying positive philosophy and belief in high<BR>expectations, I think we will be happy with the results.<BR><BR>Allison<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>---- Original Message ----- <BR>From: "Arielle Silverman" <<A href="http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nabs.president@gmail.com"
ymailto="mailto:nabs.president@gmail.com">nabs.president@gmail.com</A>><BR>To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division List"<BR><<A href="http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=pibe-division@nfbnet.org" ymailto="mailto:pibe-division@nfbnet.org">pibe-division@nfbnet.org</A>><BR>Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 9:40 PM<BR>Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR><BR><BR>> Hi all,<BR>><BR>> Let me first say that I echo the outrage and frustration that others<BR>> have voiced at the utter lack of common sense that is employed when<BR>> developing teaching methods for blind kids. Of course teachers who are<BR>> competent in Braille are going to have more successful teaching<BR>> outcomes than those who are not. As someone who has been blind all my<BR>> life I am all too familiar with the general lack of basic logic that<BR>> is so often used when designing policies or strategies for working<BR>> with blind
people, and I am aware that unjustified negative attitudes<BR>> can motivate many of these departures from common sense.<BR>><BR>> However, I am equally outraged and frustrated by the fact that solid<BR>> data linking teaching competence to good learning outcomes are still<BR>> nonexistent, and are allowed to remain nonexistent. I am a graduate<BR>> student pursuing my doctorate in experimental social psychology, a<BR>> discipline heavily dependent on quantitative data collection. While I<BR>> know I still have a lot to learn about empirical research, I don't see<BR>> any good reason why these data can't be collected and these results<BR>> can't be written up, reviewed and published in a rigorous manner.<BR>> There are plenty of instruments out there to assess educational<BR>> outcomes in blind children, and plenty of ways to quantify teacher<BR>> competency as well. It's true that perhaps only the better
teachers<BR>> would be willing to participate in this research, to an extent, but<BR>> still there is going to be variability in teachers' level of Braille<BR>> proficiency as well as variability in students' success and one can<BR>> easily measure the correlation between these two factors, and how<BR>> teachers' competencies affect student progress over time, perhaps over<BR>> many years. It's true that we can't randomly assign kids to get either<BR>> good or bad teachers and then measure their outcomes, for obvious<BR>> reasons. But today's statistical methods permit us to control for<BR>> extraneous factors and evaluate change over time, and to test the<BR>> effectiveness of specific interventions. I am confident that if<BR>> researchers ask the right questions and use the right tools, we can<BR>> acquire data that will lend undeniable support to the truth we already<BR>> know. I am disappointed that the lack of
data is being used by<BR>> proponents of the status quo as a reason for stagnation, while those<BR>> of us who are progressive-minded struggle to dismiss the value of the<BR>> data instead of going out and collecting it ourselves. Without data we<BR>> are stuck in a battle of rhetoric which neither side can conclusively<BR>> win, and our students and future students are paying the price.<BR>><BR>> I intend to become part of the solution to this problem, although I<BR>> haven't figured out exactly how to go about it at this point. I would<BR>> be curious to hear the responses of those of you who have experience<BR>> working in the field. Perhaps these studies have already been<BR>> conducted? If not, how can we change that?<BR>><BR>> Arielle<BR>><BR>> On 6/8/10, Sheila Amato <<A href="http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=brltrans@verizon.net"
ymailto="mailto:brltrans@verizon.net">brltrans@verizon.net</A>> wrote:<BR>>> Hi, Denise - In such a situation, my first (knee-jerk) response would be<BR>>> to<BR>>> try to find out WHY the kid is struggling. There are many factors that<BR>>> could<BR>>> come into play, such as a learning disability, not enough instructional<BR>>> time<BR>>> in the expanded core curriculum, the need for PT or OT, etc. I would like<BR>>> to<BR>>> see a functional vision assessment done, and a learning media assessment<BR>>> done. I would request an assistive technology assessment. I would use the<BR>>> Michigan Severity Rating Scale to document the services that should be<BR>>> provided. I would bring all the data generated by these assessments to a<BR>>> team meeting and lay it out and say that this is what the kid needs in<BR>>> the<BR>>> way of materials and in instruction.
Now, who can provide this for the<BR>>> child?<BR>>><BR>>> As a TVI, I have said outright to administrators that I am not the best<BR>>> qualified person to teach a specific piece of (brand new) technology... I<BR>>> had never used it before. So, I asked for - and received - training in<BR>>> how<BR>>> to use it... and mentorship support. True, I had to do the legwork and<BR>>> find<BR>>> my own trainer (after all, this is my world, and I hope I have more<BR>>> networks<BR>>> than a public school administrator in the blindness world), but they were<BR>>> willing to support my need... so I could support my student's.<BR>>><BR>>> As a TVI in the trenches (for another 3 weeks... and then I'm a retired<BR>>> TVI<BR>>> after 38 years of teaching), it's not my place to evaluate the skills (or<BR>>> lack thereof) of my colleagues. That is where the
administration and the<BR>>> parents need to step up to the plate. Yes, sigh, I've seen and heard<BR>>> stories<BR>>> of too many incompetent teachers - just as you have. I think I'm always<BR>>> going to be the eternal optimist and try to find a way to fix a situation<BR>>> through mentorship and networking. If they're there in the teaching<BR>>> position, I'm going to try to help them get better each day. We don't<BR>>> have<BR>>> any other pool to draw from.<BR>>><BR>>> Do you know of any more recent data than this... there are about 40<BR>>> teacher-training programs in the country. Collectively, they graduate<BR>>> about<BR>>> 250 TVIs a year. I would guess this data is about 8-10 years old, but<BR>>> based<BR>>> on the number of graduate students in my braille courses, I get 7 or 8 or<BR>>> 9<BR>>> a year. In the past few years, I've run
approximately a 50% failure rate<BR>>> in<BR>>> my university braille courses (I teach 5 of them). So, I guess that<BR>>> sparks<BR>>> more questions than it does answers. I probably had 15 students pass<BR>>> braille<BR>>> this past year out of 30 something who enrolled.<BR>>><BR>>> I'm really enjoying this dialogue...<BR>>><BR>>> Sheila<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> From: Dr. Denise M. Robinson<BR>>> Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 8:03 PM<BR>>> To: Professionals in Blindness Education Division List<BR>>> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> Sheila<BR>>><BR>>> I am not sure you would use these arguments if you had a blind<BR>>> child<BR>>> who was at the bottom of the class, struggling and unable to meet his<BR>>> potential
due to the poor instructional skills of his TVI<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> Denise<BR>>><BR>>> Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D.<BR>>> Coordinator for Blind/VI students at ESD105<BR>>> Teacher of the Blind & Visually Impaired<BR>>> 509-969-3622<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> --- On Mon, 6/7/10, Sheila Amato <<A href="http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=brltrans@verizon.net" ymailto="mailto:brltrans@verizon.net">brltrans@verizon.net</A>> wrote:<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> From: Sheila Amato <<A href="http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=brltrans@verizon.net" ymailto="mailto:brltrans@verizon.net">brltrans@verizon.net</A>><BR>>>
Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR>>> To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division List"<BR>>> <<A href="http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=pibe-division@nfbnet.org" ymailto="mailto:pibe-division@nfbnet.org">pibe-division@nfbnet.org</A>><BR>>> Date: Monday, June 7, 2010, 10:42 PM<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> Hi, Denise - ay, we can be bad in so many ways...<BR>>><BR>>> We can have poor communication skills and not accurately convey<BR>>> the<BR>>> scope of our - or our students' needs.<BR>>> We can have poor skills in transcribing braille<BR>>> We can have poor skills in teaching braille... which (as we
all<BR>>> know) is not necessarily related to transcribing braille<BR>>> We can have poor social skills<BR>>> We can have poor mobility skills<BR>>><BR>>> Of course you realize I'm speaking tongue in cheek. What I am<BR>>> trying<BR>>> to convey is that just as each of our students is an individual... with<BR>>> unique talents and areas in need of further development, so are teachers.<BR>>><BR>>> I consider myself a rather proficient braille transcriber, but I<BR>>> will also admit that I have a colleague who is a much better teacher<BR>>> (introducing braille skills to little ones) than I am. However, she would<BR>>> panic if she had to transcribe geometry, while I sink my teeth in and<BR>>>
grin.<BR>>><BR>>> This is one unique thing about OUR field that regular educators -<BR>>> or<BR>>> even special educators - don't have to deal with. We teach kids:<BR>>> from birth to 21 - or older<BR>>> those who are blind (adventitiously or congenitally)<BR>>> those who have varying degrees of low vision (adventitiously or<BR>>> congenitally)<BR>>> those with vision loss and multiple disabilities<BR>>> in any combination of the above, and in multiple settings on a<BR>>> daily<BR>>> basis.<BR>>><BR>>> I don't know any one individual who can do it ALL to a high level<BR>>> of<BR>>> proficiency. I
do know many who are in there every day doing the best<BR>>> they<BR>>> can with limited resources and lack of support from the educational<BR>>> system<BR>>> as well as the parents and doctors.<BR>>><BR>>> We tend to hear about the problem teachers. They make the daily<BR>>> news<BR>>> and people are outraged. We do ourselves a disservice as a field for not<BR>>> sharing news publicly about the teachers who are considered to be<BR>>> excellent<BR>>> - by virtue of their student's outstanding achievements. Even without<BR>>> data<BR>>> (but with common sense, perhaps) I'm willing to bet the good apples in<BR>>> our<BR>>> field highly outnumber the bad ones.<BR>>><BR>>> The REAL problem is... what are we all going to do to help the<BR>>> teachers with
less-than-proficient skills reach for the stars and gain<BR>>> the<BR>>> proficiency they need to have, what are we going to do to "fix" a system<BR>>> of<BR>>> education that is broken, and how can we assure that students who<BR>>> graduate<BR>>> from teacher training programs do so with a set of skills and knowledge<BR>>> that<BR>>> meet national criteria.<BR>>><BR>>> Sheila<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> From: Dr. Denise M. Robinson<BR>>> Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 10:15 AM<BR>>> To: Professionals in Blindness Education Division List<BR>>> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> The REALLY
bad thing about the content of these comments is<BR>>> we<BR>>> have the teachers with poor skills telling the administration all the<BR>>> incorrect information--which they believe, hence the lack of instruction<BR>>> and<BR>>> poor instruction continues.<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> Denise<BR>>><BR>>> Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D.<BR>>> Coordinator for Blind/VI students at ESD105<BR>>> Teacher of the Blind & Visually Impaired<BR>>> 509-969-3622<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> --- On Mon, 6/7/10, Kirsten
Peterson<BR>>> <<A href="http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kpeterson@perandoe.org" ymailto="mailto:kpeterson@perandoe.org">kpeterson@perandoe.org</A>><BR>>> wrote:<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> From: Kirsten Peterson <<A href="http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kpeterson@perandoe.org" ymailto="mailto:kpeterson@perandoe.org">kpeterson@perandoe.org</A>><BR>>> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR>>> To: "Professionals in Blindness Education Division List"<BR>>> <<A href="http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=pibe-division@nfbnet.org" ymailto="mailto:pibe-division@nfbnet.org">pibe-division@nfbnet.org</A>><BR>>>
Date: Monday, June 7, 2010, 5:13 AM<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> I couldn't agree with you more Denise! Thanks for<BR>>> standing<BR>>> up and making the point that clearly needs to be made over and over<BR>>> again.<BR>>> It amazes me how many school districts and teachers..special ed teachers<BR>>> included..think of Braille instruction as an extra to occur when time<BR>>> allows, rather than as an absolute necessity!<BR>>> Kirsten<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> On Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 7:43 PM, Allison Hilliker (NFBA)<BR>>> <<A href="http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nfbarizona@gmail.com" ymailto="mailto:nfbarizona@gmail.com">nfbarizona@gmail.com</A>>
wrote:<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> Well said, Denise! I'm glad we have teachers out there<BR>>> like you who are spreading such Braille-positive messages.<BR>>><BR>>> It continuously amazes me how seldom common sense is<BR>>> applied when many people teach blind kids. Concepts that are widely<BR>>> accepted as educational must-haves, like teachers proficient in the<BR>>> material<BR>>> they teach, are considered novelties or low priorities for blind kids.<BR>>><BR>>> Allison<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> ----- Original Message
-----<BR>>> From: Dr. Denise M. Robinson<BR>>> To: Professionals in Blindness Education Division<BR>>> List<BR>>> Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2010 10:13 AM<BR>>> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> Poor teacher skills ARE directly related to<BR>>> poor<BR>>> student outcomes. I have seen it over and over for the past 20 years as<BR>>> anyone else has in the field who has good skills and see their students<BR>>> exel<BR>>> and others who do not
because of the teacher who is teaching them with<BR>>> poor<BR>>> skills.<BR>>><BR>>> You cannot teach what you do not know and<BR>>> students<BR>>> cannot learn what you cannot teach them. You do not need formal research<BR>>> to<BR>>> know this, though it would not be a bad idea to finally put such a<BR>>> foolish<BR>>> notion to rest. But how many teachers with poor skills are going to stand<BR>>> up<BR>>> and say "yes, please test me and show me how poor my skills are and test<BR>>> my<BR>>> students to show everyone how far behind they are compared to a teacher<BR>>> with<BR>>> good skills."<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>
Denise<BR>>><BR>>> Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D.<BR>>> Coordinator for Blind/VI students at ESD105<BR>>> Teacher of the Blind & Visually Impaired<BR>>> 509-969-3622<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> --- On Sun, 6/6/10, Carrie Gilmer<BR>>> <<A href="http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=carrie.gilmer@gmail.com" ymailto="mailto:carrie.gilmer@gmail.com">carrie.gilmer@gmail.com</A>>
wrote:<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> From: Carrie Gilmer <<A href="http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=carrie.gilmer@gmail.com" ymailto="mailto:carrie.gilmer@gmail.com">carrie.gilmer@gmail.com</A>><BR>>> Subject: Re: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR>>> To: "'Professionals in Blindness Education<BR>>> Division List'" <<A href="http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=pibe-division@nfbnet.org" ymailto="mailto:pibe-division@nfbnet.org">pibe-division@nfbnet.org</A>><BR>>> Date: Sunday,
June 6, 2010, 4:12 PM<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> Right on Denise, exactly dead on right on.<BR>>> Thank<BR>>> you for not being frustrated, bothered and angry in silence. Carrie<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> ----------------------------------------------------<BR>>><BR>>> From: <A href="http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=pibe-division-bounces@nfbnet.org" ymailto="mailto:pibe-division-bounces@nfbnet.org">pibe-division-bounces@nfbnet.org</A><BR>>> [mailto:<A href="http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=pibe-division-bounces@nfbnet.org" ymailto="mailto:pibe-division-bounces@nfbnet.org">pibe-division-bounces@nfbnet.org</A>] On Behalf Of Denise Mackenstadt<BR>>>
Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2010 1:07 PM<BR>>> To: <A href="http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=pibe-division@nfbnet.org" ymailto="mailto:pibe-division@nfbnet.org">pibe-division@nfbnet.org</A><BR>>> Subject: [Pibe-division] Comment<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> Recently on AERnet I noticed a post that<BR>>> bothered me. I have responded and I am sending this response to the PIBE<BR>>> list. Every time I think that we are making progress something like this<BR>>> comment is used to
justify not providing for the needs of blind kids.<BR>>> Here<BR>>> is the post and my response:<BR>>><BR>>> Recently in response to a question posted by<BR>>> Sheila one of the posts stated "Weaknesses: 1. still no published<BR>>> research<BR>>> proving or disproving that poor teacher braille skills are responsible<BR>>> for<BR>>> poor braille outcomes for students. Nevertheless, we've gone full steam<BR>>> ahead addressing a "problem" that may not exist. Assertions by advocacy<BR>>> groups are not evidence, nor are gut hunches. We need DATA. And thus<BR>>> far<BR>>> no data exists." I find it astonishing that an assertion is being made<BR>>> that<BR>>> teacher competency in an essential skill to be taught to
students is not<BR>>> relevant to student outcomes. Lack of Data cannot take the place of<BR>>> common sense or best practice. I cannot think of another subject area,<BR>>> for<BR>>> example: Language Arts, Math, Science or Art, where a decent state<BR>>> licensing<BR>>> entity will not expect an instructor to demonstrate competence. As a<BR>>> parent<BR>>> I would be very concerned if my child's English teacher could not read or<BR>>> write English. Let us not throw out critical thinking as an alternative<BR>>> to<BR>>> non-existent DATA Collection. I do not want to say that legitimate<BR>>> research<BR>>> and legitimate data results are not beneficial to best practices. But<BR>>> let<BR>>> us not sacrifice common sense to the altar of statistics.<BR>>><BR>>>
Denise Mackenstadt, NOMC<BR>>><BR>>> Mackenstadt Rehab Services<BR>>><BR>>> (206)419-9555<BR>>><BR>>> <A href="http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=cane.travel@gmail.com" ymailto="mailto:cane.travel@gmail.com">cane.travel@gmail.com</A><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> -----Inline Attachment
Follows-----<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> _______________________________________________<BR>>> Pibe-division mailing list<BR>>> <A href="http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Pibe-division@nfbnet.org" ymailto="mailto:Pibe-division@nfbnet.org">Pibe-division@nfbnet.org</A><BR>>><BR>>> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe-division_nfbnet.org" target=_blank>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe-division_nfbnet.org</A><BR>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or<BR>>> get<BR>>> your account info for Pibe-division:<BR>>><BR>>> <A
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target=_blank>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe-division_nfbnet.org</A><BR>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your<BR>>> account info for Pibe-division:<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe-division_nfbnet.org/nfbarizona%40gmail.com" target=_blank>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe-division_nfbnet.org/nfbarizona%40gmail.com</A><BR>>><BR>>> _______________________________________________<BR>>> Pibe-division mailing list<BR>>> <A href="http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Pibe-division@nfbnet.org"
ymailto="mailto:Pibe-division@nfbnet.org">Pibe-division@nfbnet.org</A><BR>>><BR>>> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe-division_nfbnet.org" target=_blank>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe-division_nfbnet.org</A><BR>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your<BR>>> account info for Pibe-division:<BR>>><BR>>> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe-division_nfbnet.org/kpeterson%40perandoe.org" target=_blank>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe-division_nfbnet.org/kpeterson%40perandoe.org</A><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> --<BR>>> Kirsten M. Peterson, M.S.Ed.<BR>>>
Teacher of Students with Visual Impairments<BR>>> Perandoe Special Education District<BR>>> 1525 Locust<BR>>> Red Bud, IL 62278<BR>>> (618) 282-6251 ext. 104<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> This message and all attachments are confidential. Any<BR>>> review, use, disclosure or distribution by persons other than the<BR>>> intended<BR>>> recipients is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you believe this message<BR>>> has been sent to you in error, please notify the sender by replying to<BR>>> this<BR>>> transmission or calling The Perandoe Special
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href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe-division_nfbnet.org/brltrans%40verizon.net" target=_blank>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/pibe-division_nfbnet.org/brltrans%40verizon.net</A><BR>>><BR>><BR>><BR>> -- <BR>> Arielle Silverman<BR>> President, National Association of Blind Students<BR>> Phone: 602-502-2255<BR>> Email:<BR>> <A href="http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nabs.president@gmail.com" ymailto="mailto:nabs.president@gmail.com">nabs.president@gmail.com</A><BR>> Website:<BR>> www.nabslink.org<BR>><BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>> Pibe-division mailing list<BR>> <A href="http://us.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Pibe-division@nfbnet.org" ymailto="mailto:Pibe-division@nfbnet.org">Pibe-division@nfbnet.org</A><BR>> <A href="http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/pibe-division_nfbnet.org"
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