[nfbwatlk] Target thinks blindness is a laughing matter:

Thu Jan 3 23:36:02 CST 2008

Jedi:

My problem is that, frankly put, I think sensitivity training is a whole 
lot of dinosaur kaka! It makes everyone feel good and pretend like 
they've accomplished something when in reality all anyone has done is to 
flap his/her gums a bit and to draw atention to the fact that one 
ultimately feels one is owed better treatment as a disabled person than 
one might get if one were not disabled.

How much better it would be were one to simply say that an incident of 
rudeness occurred and that this doesn't do much for the store's bottom 
line. Leave disability out of it!

AS I say, I think sensitivity training and the like is in the same 
category as using cutesy phrases such as "differently-abled". Gag me 
with a spoon!

You could be right and I could be wrong; there could be a pervasive 
problem of not viewing disabled persons as valued customers, a la 
Denny's and black persons. But I doubt it. And whereas there are 
specific laws one can use to ream Denny's posterior over viz. their 
treatment of blacks, about the only applicable statute here is ADA Title 
III and that kind of indirectly.

I realize that people are itching for a good fight. But let's pick 
something with a little more legal umph behind it, shall we?

Mike

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jedi
  To: 'NFB of Washington Talk Mailing List'
  Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 7:48 PM
  Subject: Re: [nfbwatlk] Target thinks blindness is a laughing matter:

  Mike,

  It seems to me, and maybe I'm wrong, that this is really a portion of 
a
  laundry list of issues with Target. Yeah, we're currently dealing with 
their
  lack of web accessibility, but I'm thinking that the fight over web 
access
  and what happened to Kay are two symptoms of the fact that, as Kay
  explained, there's no sensitivity training or education for Target and 
its
  employees regarding blindness. That being said, I do think that there 
is
  something that we can do to prevent further incidents toward other 
blind
  people, and it doesn't have to be a long drawn out process or bloody
  protest/press cutting. I think that Kris has the right idea about 
writing a
  letter and offering to gently educate via the distribution of NFB
  literature. Granted, I know that Target is a much bigger entity than 
just
  the North Gate store, but it might just be a step in the right 
direction. Am
  I making sense? If nothing else, such a presence will offer the 
Seattle
  chapter an opportunity to meet and greet the general public, who will
  undoubtedly; make up that store's potential hiring pool at some point.

  Respectfully,
  Jedi

  -----Original Message-----
  From: nfbwatlk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfbwatlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
On
  Behalf of Mike Freeman
  Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 7:25 PM
  To: NFB of Washington Talk Mailing List
  Subject: Re: [nfbwatlk] Target thinks blindness is a laughing matter:

  Fellow listers:

  I realize that Kay is mightily perturbed over this whole incident. Who
  can blame her? But let's get the emotion out of the discussion and 
look
  at this logically in light of NFB philosophy and in light of what 
might
  be effective. I realize that what I say next may not go down well with
  some of you. So be it; you elected me to lead and you have the power 
of
  the vote; my term is up this year. (grin)

  First, let's consider Lisa's suggestion that we go to the press
  concerning this incident. If Kay were sighted, would this incident 
have
  been worthy of press notice? I submit that the answer is a resounding
  NO! The press wouldn't give the time of day to someone who issued a
  press release saying they were laughed at or treated rudely at a 
store.
  The general response would be: if you don't like it, shop elsewhere!
  Then if this is true and given that we of NFB wish to be integrated 
into
  society on the basis of equality with the sighted and if we maintain
  that blindness is just another characteristic with which we must live
  and is nnot much more than a nuisance, do we *really* wish to be 
treated
  differentially with respect to blindness? I submit that the answer to
  this question, too, is a resounding NO. I further submit that
  complaining to the press about this would play on the sympathy card 
and
  in the end would accomplish a purpose quite contrary to that which we
  all want -- to be treated the same as everyone else. So I believe that
  trying to arrange a protest or get pres coverage of this incident is
  counterproductive at best.

  Now let's consider how effective a boycott might be. Yes, I know; we 
all
  grew up with knowledge of the glory days of civil rights when
  African-americans boycotted busses and other services. But in the
  instances where such boycotts were effective, African-americans were a
  majority of the customers of the entities being boycotted. That is not
  the situation here. Target has revenues of over $2 billion a year; any
  boycott we might arrange would be a drop -- not just in a bucket but 
in
  a thimble -- compared to this revenue. So it would be like spitting 
into
  the wind. It would be wasted effort. WE have enough discrimination
  problems so that we don't need to scatter our shots on ventures that 
are
  not likely to be effective.

  The one possible way I can see to protest Kay's treatment would be for
  her to file a complaint with the U.s. Department of Justice under 
Title
  III of the ADA alleging that she didn't receive reasonable
  accommodations in gaining access to the menu. But this is a long,
  drawn-out process and, I submit, not worth the bother.

  Am I saying that what happened to Kay was right? Of course not. Is it 
of
  sufficient gravity to make a Federal case out of? I don't think so.
  There's a lot in life that isn't right. But sometimes the best thing 
to
  do is to ignore it or, in this case, take one's business to a 
different
  store.

  The Serenity Prayer applies in spades!

  Now I'll put on my fire-resistant suit. <g>

  Mike Freeman, President
  NFB of Washington

    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Owenblue2 at aol.com
    To: nfbwatlk at nfbnet.org
    Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 11:43 PM
    Subject: Re: [nfbwatlk] Target thinks blindness is a laughing 
matter:

    Ok; let's see how much they laugh if we boycott their stores and 
Pizza
  Hut
    as well. I think you should go to the press. I am furious and mad as 
a
  hornet!
    How dare they treat you this way!

    Whatever you decide to do I support you all the way.

    Lisa Owen

    **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
    (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)

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    nfbwatlk at nfbnet.org
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-------------- next part --------------
Jedi:

My problem is that, frankly put, I think sensitivity training is a whole lot of dinosaur kaka! It makes everyone feel good and pretend like they've accomplished something when in reality all anyone has done is to flap his/her gums a bit and to draw atention to the fact that one ultimately feels one is owed better treatment as a disabled person than one might get if one were not disabled.

How much better it would be were one to simply say that an incident of rudeness occurred and that this doesn't do much for the store's bottom line. Leave disability out of it!

AS I say, I think sensitivity training and the like is in the same category as using cutesy phrases such as "differently-abled". Gag me with a spoon!

You could be right and I could be wrong; there could be a pervasive problem of not viewing disabled persons as valued customers, a la Denny's and black persons. But I doubt it. And whereas there are specific laws one can use to ream Denny's posterior over viz. their treatment of blacks, about the only applicable statute here is ADA Title III and that kind of indirectly.

I realize that people are itching for a good fight. But let's pick something with a little more legal umph behind it, shall we?

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From:
mailto:blindjedi at clearwire.net Jedi
To:
mailto:nfbwatlk at nfbnet.org 'NFB of Washington Talk Mailing List'
Sent:
Thursday, January 03, 2008 7:48 PM
Subject:
Re: [nfbwatlk] Target thinks blindness is a laughing matter:
Mike,
It seems to me, and maybe I'm wrong, that this is really a portion of a
laundry list of issues with Target. Yeah, we're currently dealing with their
lack of web accessibility, but I'm thinking that the fight over web access
and what happened to Kay are two symptoms of the fact that, as Kay
explained, there's no sensitivity training or education for Target and its
employees regarding blindness. That being said, I do think that there is
something that we can do to prevent further incidents toward other blind
people, and it doesn't have to be a long drawn out process or bloody
protest/press cutting. I think that Kris has the right idea about writing a
letter and offering to gently educate via the distribution of NFB
literature. Granted, I know that Target is a much bigger entity than just
the North Gate store, but it might just be a step in the right direction. Am
I making sense? If nothing else, such a presence will offer the Seattle
chapter an opportunity to meet and greet the general public, who will
undoubtedly; make up that store's potential hiring pool at some point.
Respectfully,
Jedi
-----Original Message-----
From: mailto:nfbwatlk-bounces at nfbnet.org nfbwatlk-bounces at nfbnet.org
[mailto:nfbwatlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf of Mike Freeman
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 7:25 PM
To: NFB of Washington Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [nfbwatlk] Target thinks blindness is a laughing matter:
Fellow listers:
I realize that Kay is mightily perturbed over this whole incident. Who
can blame her? But let's get the emotion out of the discussion and look
at this logically in light of NFB philosophy and in light of what might
be effective. I realize that what I say next may not go down well with
some of you. So be it; you elected me to lead and you have the power of
the vote; my term is up this year. (grin)
First, let's consider Lisa's suggestion that we go to the press
concerning this incident. If Kay were sighted, would this incident have
been worthy of press notice? I submit that the answer is a resounding
NO! The press wouldn't give the time of day to someone who issued a
press release saying they were laughed at or treated rudely at a store.
The general response would be: if you don't like it, shop elsewhere!
Then if this is true and given that we of NFB wish to be integrated into
society on the basis of equality with the sighted and if we maintain
that blindness is just another characteristic with which we must live
and is nnot much more than a nuisance, do we *really* wish to be treated
differentially with respect to blindness? I submit that the answer to
this question, too, is a resounding NO. I further submit that
complaining to the press about this would play on the sympathy card and
in the end would accomplish a purpose quite contrary to that which we
all want -- to be treated the same as everyone else. So I believe that
trying to arrange a protest or get pres coverage of this incident is
counterproductive at best.
Now let's consider how effective a boycott might be. Yes, I know; we all
grew up with knowledge of the glory days of civil rights when
African-americans boycotted busses and other services. But in the
instances where such boycotts were effective, African-americans were a
majority of the customers of the entities being boycotted. That is not
the situation here. Target has revenues of over $2 billion a year; any
boycott we might arrange would be a drop -- not just in a bucket but in
a thimble -- compared to this revenue. So it would be like spitting into
the wind. It would be wasted effort. WE have enough discrimination
problems so that we don't need to scatter our shots on ventures that are
not likely to be effective.
The one possible way I can see to protest Kay's treatment would be for
her to file a complaint with the U.s. Department of Justice under Title
III of the ADA alleging that she didn't receive reasonable
accommodations in gaining access to the menu. But this is a long,
drawn-out process and, I submit, not worth the bother.
Am I saying that what happened to Kay was right? Of course not. Is it of
sufficient gravity to make a Federal case out of? I don't think so.
There's a lot in life that isn't right. But sometimes the best thing to
do is to ignore it or, in this case, take one's business to a different
store.
The Serenity Prayer applies in spades!
Now I'll put on my fire-resistant suit. <g>
Mike Freeman, President
NFB of Washington
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: mailto:Owenblue2 at aol.com Owenblue2 at aol.com
  To: mailto:nfbwatlk at nfbnet.org nfbwatlk at nfbnet.org
  Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 11:43 PM
  Subject: Re: [nfbwatlk] Target thinks blindness is a laughing matter:
  Ok; let's see how much they laugh if we boycott their stores and Pizza
Hut
  as well. I think you should go to the press. I am furious and mad as a
hornet!
  How dare they treat you this way!
  Whatever you decide to do I support you all the way.
  Lisa Owen
  **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
  ( http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004 http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004
)
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