[Nfb-web] validation - Re: our website and accessibility

Tue Aug 29 21:01:44 CDT 2006

Hello Mark and listers,

    I've been wanting to comment on this subject but needed to collect my
thoughts first. Let me answer your second question via a reminder. Last week
someone commented that they really didn't expect forms to work perfectly and
felt it not to be a serious matter where the NFB's Web sites are concerned.
Do I need to remind folks that our organization has established a Non-Visual
Web Accessibility Initiative and has had the program in operation for
several years now? You can learn more about this initiative at:
http://www.nfb.org/nfb/certification_links.asp?SnID=2037531954

    There is also a list of companies whose Web sites and applications have
earned our NVWA Seal. The list is located at:
http://www.nfb.org/nfb/certification_list.asp?SnID=2037531954

    On past occasions and just now I reviewed this list. There are many
companies listed whose Web Sites have been certified as accessible under
this program. Not one single NFB state affiliate or  Division Web site is on
that list. The message is clear as day. If we're going to demand that others
make their Web sites accessible to the blind ours should be models of
accessibility and should have passed muster and earned that seal.

    When building the NFB of Tennessee's Web site I volunteered to arrange
for this to be done before this year's national convention. Due to issues
with getting their state convention audio running, and other matters time
ran out on us, and we were unable to have the Web accessibility checks done
before coming to Dallas. Hence we're living with the knowledge that, "We
almost did it!" From reading that list had the accessibility checks been
done the NFB of Tennessee's Web site would have been the first NFB Web site
to earn this certification. We were looking forward to announcing this
wonderful news in Dallas this year.

    While at the convention I spoke to Anne Taylor about the program. She
informed me that there's normally a fee charged for doing the accessibility
checks, but NFB affiliates can have this done free of charge. I'll be
contacting her soon to arrange for the NFBTN Site to be checked and will do
the same for several affiliate Web sites I'm working on once they're ready
for prime time. I would also urge others to do the same. I would also hope
that in time all NFB Sites will proudly display the Web Accessibility Seal.
We shouldn't ask others to do what we ourselves aren't willing to do.

    As for XHTML validation since I create my sites using XHTML I always
validate my code either through W3 or the Dreamweaver XHTML Validator. As
you enter code or content it checks its validity and alerts you if an XHTML
tag is invalid giving you the opportunity to fix it allowing you to submit
pretty clean XHTML to the W3 Validator and making your job much easier. I
may be wrong about this, but I believe Brad Hodges once told me that all Web
sites submitted for NVWA Certification had to be in XHTML and should be
validated before they're submitted for certification. If Anne's on this list
she can clarify this for us.

    Anyway that's my take on this whole matter. Now to add some NFB
affiliate and division Web sites to that list.

Peter Donahue

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark Senk" <marksenk at adelphia.net>
To: "NFB Webmaster's List" <nfb-web at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2006 7:07 PM
Subject: [Nfb-web] validation - Re: our website and accessibility

How do you all feel about valid html?

I have been making more use of the checker at
validator.w3.org  for checking xhtml and css files.

I was surprised that nfb.org blindscience.org and nfblink.org all have
some errors in the html code.

Should we expect valid html code from authoring tools?  Should affiliate
webmasters take the extra time to check our pages?

Mark in Pittsburgh

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Chris Westbrook" <westbc at clw19.com>
To: "NFB Webmaster's List" <nfb-web at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 12:49 PM
Subject: Re: [Nfb-web] our website and accessibility

: Unfortunately, you are right, because most forms are not designed
correctly.
: That doesn't mean it has to be the case for our website though.
: Chris Westbrook
: email or msn messenger; westbc at clw19.com
: skype: chriswestbrook (please write a message that explains who you
are if
: you add me to your contacts.)
: ----- Original Message ----- 
: From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
: To: "NFB Webmaster's List" <nfb-web at nfbnet.org>
: Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 12:00 PM
: Subject: Re: [Nfb-web] our website and accessibility
:
:
: >I figure that's just one of the hazards of computer life for the
blind.
: >
: > Mike Freeman
: >
: > On Thu, 24 Aug 2006, Peter Donahue wrote:
: >
: >> Hello Chris and listers,
: >>
: >> Come to think of it I had the same problem with JFW 7.0 in the
suggestion
: >> form and had to keep going in and out of forms mode.
: >>
: >> Peter Donahue
: >>
: >>
: >> ----- Original Message -----
: >> From: "Chris Westbrook" <westbc at clw19.com>
: >> To: "NFB Webmaster's List" <nfb-web at nfbnet.org>
: >> Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2006 10:32 AM
: >> Subject: Re: [Nfb-web] our website and accessibility
: >>
: >>
: >> First, let me apologize for the harshness of the below message.
: >> Unfortunately at times I have a tendency to make statements without
fully
: >> analyzing what I am saying and how it may come across to others.
Second,
: >> to
: >> answer your question, Steve, I realized that window eyes wasn't
reading
: >> the
: >> controls of a form when browse mode is turned on when tabbing
through
: >> form
: >> fields.  Interestingly, Jaws reads the information whether forms
mode is
: >> on
: >> or off, probably guessing that since the text is in the table cell
to the
: >> left of the form field it should be associated with the control.
When
: >> browse
: >> mode is turned off in window eyes, window eyes makes this
assumption as
: >> well
: >> and reads the form correctly.  I still think label tags should be
used to
: >> make it clear what text is being associated with which control.  I
have
: >> tested window eyes with a properly labeled form, and window eyes
then
: >> reads
: >> the label whether browse mode is turned on or off.  By properly
labeled,
: >> I
: >> mean a form that has the following format.  <label for="id of
: >> control">label
: >> of control on screen</label>...some markup here...<actual control
with
: >> same
: >> id attribute of label/>.  again, I' sorry to have been so harsh
below,
: >> and I
: >> hope this post is more helpful.
: >> Chris Westbrook
: >> email or msn messenger; westbc at clw19.com
: >> skype: chriswestbrook (please write a message that explains who you
are
: >> if
: >> you add me to your contacts.)
: >> ----- Original Message -----
: >> From: "Berggren, John" <JBerggren at NFB.ORG>
: >> To: "NFB Webmaster's List" <nfb-web at nfbnet.org>
: >> Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2006 11:06 AM
: >> Subject: Re: [Nfb-web] our website and accessibility
: >>
: >>
: >>> Good morning, Chris--
: >>>
: >>> Thanks for your comments about the Web site.  First and foremost,
let me
: >>> assure you that accessibility is one of *the* top concerns when
creating
: >>> Web content for the national site.  You are right on the money
when you
: >>> suggest that we ought to be a model of accessibility for others.
We
: >>> want to demonstrate to the Internet community that a Web site can
be
: >>> functional, intuitive and aesthetically pleasing, all at the same
time.
: >>>
: >>> In general, the xCatalyst CMS tool should create accessible
content.
: >>> Before going live, we tested a number of forms on our site to
ensure
: >>> that they were navigable and understandable using both Window Eyes
and
: >>> JAWS.  We found the results to be satisfactory.  The forms
examined
: >>> didn't use every type of field available, but should have been an
: >>> adequate check of general accessibility.
: >>>
: >>> Chris, I suspect that at least one of the forms you looked at was
the
: >>> "Suggestions for..." page.  You're correct--xCatalyst doesn't
create
: >>> label tags for its form fields.  However, I seem to remember that
we
: >>> didn't have trouble getting Window Eyes to identify each field by
name.
: >>> I'll get a look at that page right now.  It would be helpful,
Chris, to
: >>> know what version of Window Eyes you are using.
: >>>
: >>> Our shift to a content management system and the migration to the
new
: >>> site has been a learning experience, showing us better ways to do
things
: >>> as well as what to never, ever do again.  We're trying to get it
all
: >>> right the first time, but I promise you that's not going to always
: >>> happen.  The most useful thing our members can do is let us know
what
: >>> doesn't work and what could be better.  Clearly, that's made a bit
more
: >>> difficult when simple feedback forms don't work properly.  Don't
: >>> hesitate to email directly if you're having trouble with a
particular
: >>> page or Web site function.
: >>>
: >>> The intention here is to provide a site that gets both our members
and
: >>> visitors who are new to us the information they want as
efficiently as
: >>> possible.  And this has to be done while raising the bar for
: >>> accessibility.  Your patience is appreciated, but your feedback is
: >>> imperative.  Work with us and we'll get these things straightened
out in
: >>> exemplary fashion.
: >>>
: >>> Regards,
: >>> John
: >>>
: >>> John Berggren
: >>> IT Director
: >>> National Federation of the Blind
: >>> 1800 Johnson Street
: >>> Baltimore, MD  21230
: >>>
: >>> P : 410-659-9314 x2329
: >>> F : 410-685-5653
: >>> E : jberggren at nfb.org
: >>>
: >>>
: >>>
: >>> -----Original Message-----
: >>> From: nfb-web-bounces at nfbnet.org
[mailto:nfb-web-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
: >>> Behalf Of Chris Westbrook
: >>> Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2006 9:58 AM
: >>> To: NFB Webmaster's List
: >>> Subject: [Nfb-web] our website and accessibility
: >>>
: >>> I was really disappointed when I looked at the website for our
members
: >>> area yesterday.  I wasn't so disappointed at the sparseness of
content,
: >>> Peter covered that eloquently Yesterday.  When I looked at the
various
: >>> forms to submit suggestions and other things, I noticed they
weren't
: >>> reading well with window eyes.  A quick look at the source reveals
that
: >>> there are no label tags anywhere.  For those of you who don't
know, a
: >>> label tag is a quick and standard way to associate text on the
screen
: >>> with a control such as a form field.  I know we are getting our
site
: >>> from a new content management system, but I would think
accessibility
: >>> would have been part of the process in determining which cms to
use.  I
: >>> think if we are going to advocate for accessibility, we need to
have a
: >>> website that is completely accessible and be a model for others.
I'm
: >>> really disappointed that we chose the easy way out with a cms that
: >>> doesn't output fully accessible content rather than look at our
: >>> membership to see who could assist with a redesign.  It makes me
wonder
: >>> whether the national office functions above and outside of the
: >>> membership, but that's another discussion for another post.  I
hope
: >>> things are handled better in the future.
: >>> Chris Westbrook
: >>> email or msn messenger; westbc at clw19.com
: >>> skype: chriswestbrook (please write a message that explains who
you are
: >>> if you add me to your contacts.)
: >>> _______________________________________________
: >>> Nfb-web mailing list
: >>> Nfb-web at nfbnet.org
: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-web
: >>>
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: >>
: >> _______________________________________________
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: >> Nfb-web at nfbnet.org
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: >>
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: >>
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