[nfb-talk] To Be or Not to Be, Irritated
David Andrews
dandrews at visi.com
Tue May 13 21:28:01 CDT 2008
If bills were different sizes, different from what they are now, all
kinds of things would have to be modified.
Dave
At 07:29 PM 5/13/2008, you wrote:
>Oh, for petes sake! There is no reason to believe that cash drawars would
>have to be modified! That's just absurd.
>
>Look, Canada put raised markings on their bills and the change was so subtle
>that most people never even noticed. I work in the Math Department at the
>University of Wisconsin and there are a lot of Canadians here. I posted a
>message asking for Canadian money and to a person, they didn't know what I
>was talking about when I said I wanted to check if it had raised markings.
>
>To be fair, in a few cases, the bills did not have raised markings. I can't
>explain that. The billsddidn't feel that old. There didn't seem to be a
>pattern there. But most of the bills did have raised markings and after the
>first few, I was able to tell what I'd been handed when someone came into my
>office with more bills.
>
>This stuff about accessible money being expensive or disruptive is just
>plain bogus.
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 8:55 PM
>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] To Be or Not to Be, Irritated
>
>
> > Harmeet:
> >
> > I don't think accessible currency would have an effect on blind persons
> > and jobs one way or the other. I just don't think there'd be a grand
> > rush to handle such jobs as cashiering because other equipment (such as
> > cash registers) would have to be modified and I just don't see the sorts
> > of establishments we're talking about giving a tinker's damn about
> > making their gear accessible.
> >
> > In any event, the real reason I introduced the 2002 currency resolution
> > was that I did not think it discriminatory that currency isn't
> > accessible and I feared -- and still fear -- that the lawsuit could have
> > serious blow-back consequences if the adverse ruling was broader than
> > the original suit.
> >
> > Mike Freeman
> > ... "It is human nature to think wisely and act foolishly." -- Anatole
> > France
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Sekhon, Harmeet
> > To: NFB Talk Mailing List
> > Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 11:45 AM
> > Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] To Be or Not to Be, Irritated
> >
> >
> > Joe,
> >
> > This is, by far, the most thurroghly thought out and meaningful
> > response
> > I've read on this subject since it first came up on lists. It sums up
> > very well what many of us have wanted to say and have not, for one
> > reason or another. Accessible currency is more a positive than a
> > negative, in my opinion, when it comes to the blind person seeking
> > employment. That's especially true if that blind person wants a job
> > where dealing with paper money is vital to the job duties. Yes, I
> > know
> > blind people deal with paper currency now. I do. I know that people
> > work with it in their jobs with the use of technology. But if it was
> > accessible, I think it would open far more doors than it would close.
> > It would improve perceptions of us--or perhaps not improve them--but I
> > don't think there would really be a backlash. I also believe that you
> > would see that blind job seekers might become more confident about
> > what
> > they can do, rather than a lot of focus on how to obtain the necessary
> > technology to do it and possible worries about the limitations of that
> > technology.
> >
> > Harmeet
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nfb-talk-bounces+harmeet_sekhon=cable.comcast.com at nfbnet.org
> > [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces+harmeet_sekhon=cable.comcast.com at nfbnet.org]
> > On
> > Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter
> > Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 11:20 AM
> > To: NFB Talk Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] To Be or Not to Be, Irritated
> >
> > Jim,
> >
> > The wheelchair user analogy you'd likely get from the ACB is the wrong
> > one. (I consider John in the ACB camp since I see him on their lists
> > and
> > every message he posts to ours is in support of their agenda,
> > regardless
> > of what he says to us)
> >
> > When Katie, my GF and a wheelchair user, applies for a job, nobody
> > really
> > questions whether or not she can get to work every day because she
> > lives
> > in Portland, Oregon. The entire city has curb cuts at every
> > intersection.
> > She doesn't need them usually. Any curb or single step of less than
> > four
> > inches is easy enough for her to navigate. She can get around
> > Monmouth
> > just fine, and Monmouth has old, broken, bumpy, rocky sidewalks on
> > many
> > streets, no sidewalks on several, and curb cuts are entirely hit and
> > miss.
> >
> > Now, there are times when navigating in this town means she is walking
> > (rolling?) in the street because there literally isn't anywhere else
> > for
> > her to be, but I do the same thing myself, and we stick to the side of
> > the
> > road so that cars can easily go around us. Fortunately, in Monmouth,
> > there isn't that much traffic except around 5pm as the University
> > office
> > employees are leaving town.
> >
> > When I apply for a job, people aren't so sure about me. No of course
> > I
> > know this going in and I make sure that within five minutes, there can
> > be
> > no doubt that I can do just about anything they could imagine. I know
> > that if I don't do that, I won't be getting the job. It's that
> > simple.
> >
> > That isn't really an argument FOR chirping signals--I don't use the
> > things, and frankly even the new ones are an irritating interference
> > to
> > street crossing. But consider instead the situation with money..
> >
> > Sighted people don't know and can't imagine how we can avoid being
> > ripped
> > off several times a day. I do it, but they can't think of how. Now,
> > if
> > they can't imagine how I'm going to identify the money, are they
> > likely
> > to
> > hire me for a position that includes managing money as part of my
> > daily
> > job duties? Again, if I can't convince them that I can do it, they
> > won't
> > hire me.
> >
> > In that way, the ACB's efforts to secure a currency the rest of the
> > world
> > KNOWS we can use is a very good thing. I'd go a little further and
> > suggest that we need a way to verify the money is the real thing,
> > similar
> > to the way sighted people use that pen that temporarily changes color
> > when
> > marked on the higher denomination bills. No cashier I've seen will
> > take
> > a
> > $50 or $100 bill without checking it, and we shouldn't either. Maybe
> > in
> > addition to making a purple mark on a real $50, it could smell like
> > grape
> > until the mark fades, I don't know. *grin*
> >
> > For me, the currency thing is less about the poor blind person being
> > unable to spend money without being ripped off--that happens to
> > sighted
> > people about as often as to us, I suspect, and we have a way to know.
> > It's slow, it's inconvenient, and it's a technology-based solution
> > that
> > costs about $$150 too much in my opinion, but it's there. No, for me
> > the
> > really big issue is changing that perception that we can't do it.
> >
> > The other factor is that I'm Catholic and believe strongly in my
> > faith--it
> > is a Christian ethic that we do things to help others because it is
> > the
> > right thing to do--not because it's easy or because there's no cost
> > involved with doing it or even because they're hopeless without that
> > help.
> > Would a currency that a blind person could (relatively) quickly and
> > safely
> > identify without trusted assistance or some slow $200 gadget be
> > helpful
> > to
> > us? Absolutely it would. If it is done the right way, the per-person
> > costs are downright reasonable (even if the numbers get large when you
> > look at sum totals), and it gives the general public one less thing to
> > think we can't do. For these reasons, it should be done.
> >
> > Now, is this lawsuit by the ACB the right vehicle to do it? Probably
> > not.
> > Are some of their claims about the plight of the blind person, cheated
> > at
> > every turn a bit ridiculous? From our perspective, very much so. But
> > the
> > judge included in his findings of fact that sufficient accessibility
> > to
> > the currency isn't there. That finding is no longer up for
> > debate--you
> > don't appeal findings of fact. The findings of law are another
> > matter.
> >
> > GIVEN that the currency is was found to be not sufficiently accessible
> > (which is better than saying inaccessible because the latter isn't
> > true),
> > does the law demand that the government do something about it? The
> > ACB
> > and the judge say yes. The government says no, and they appealed the
> > judge's decision. Now under these circumstances, I hope the ACB wins
> > the
> > appeal and that either the government decides not to appeal to the
> > supreme
> > court OR that the supreme court decides not to hear the case--I would
> > expect the supreme court to rule against the ACB and take a hammer and
> > chisel to the Rehab Act in the process. ACB and NFB would both be
> > held
> > responsible in my mind if that happens--the ACB for pursuing this
> > through
> > the courts rather than through the legislators, and the NFB for giving
> > them ammunition to do it when we rightly should have stayed out of it.
> >
> > Incidentally, am I the only one who thinks it is silly that the
> > government
> > can afford to:
> > - send everyone a kicker check
> > - bail out big banks who made bad loans
> > - possibly bail out homeowners who took loans they can't afford
> > - drop the gas tax for the summer, despite economists' claims this
> > would
> > be a bad idea
> > - provide every single household in the country not one but TWO
> > set-top
> > TV boxes just about for free
> > .... but they cannot afford to give vendors a tax break so they can
> > update
> > their machines to accept a new format to the paper currency gradually
> > over
> > the next FIFTEEN YEARS it would take to accomplish such a changeover?
> >
> > Remember class, politicians' first duty is to their re-election
> > campaign.
> >
> > Joseph
> >
> > On Thu, May 08, 2008 at 10:05:45PM -0600, Jim Marks wrote:
> > > John, I am saying you're shooting at the wrong targets. You seem
> > like
> > a
> > > bright enough guy, so I presume you're aim is deliberate. No one
> > said
> > that
> > > accessible money or audible pedestrian signals are the cause of the
> > > prejudice. However, they can be and often are the symptoms of the
> > > prejudice. Spare us the analogies about wheelchair users and
> > sighted
> > people
> > > getting something we poor blind people do not get. Blind people
> > know
> > we
> > > have to look to ourselves in the things that count. The way I see
> > it,
> > > accessible money doesn't really matter that much, and audible
> > pedestrian
> > > signals can be harmful, especially if they are forced on us by
> > knotheads who
> > > don't really believe in the abilities of the blind. You troll here
> > telling
> > > the most powerful organization of the blind that we are somehow
> > cramping
> > > your style. Well, you know what? We're going to do it our way.
> > And
> > our
> > > aim is more than just a matter of bravado and twisting of words. If
> > you
> > > would simply examine your beliefs and compare them with the ones
> > most
> > > Federationists hold, you might learn a thing or two. There was a
> > time
> > when
> > > I thought and acted like you are here on NFB-Talk. I woke up to the
> > fact
> > > that there are no real curb cuts for the blind and that no one was
> > looking
> > > out for the interests of the blind except for those who understand
> > the
> > > personal responsibility and positive attitudes bit. You will not
> > fix
> > > blindness with accessibility alone. Plus, the more you believe in
> > the
> > > abilities of the blind, the less accessibility you will want.
> > >
> > > John, I have one last something to tell you. If you don't want to
> > know,
> > > don't look down. If you were to look down, you would see that you
> > are
> > > standing on the shoulders of Federationists. We're going to be
> > there
> > for
> > > you regardless of how you spit, fuss, and shake your tiny fists.
> > Best
> > to
> > > you. I really mean it.
> > >
> > >
> > > -------
> > > Jim Marks
> > > blind.grizzly at gmail.com
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: nfb-talk-bounces+blind.grizzly=gmail.com at nfbnet.org
> > > [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces+blind.grizzly=gmail.com at nfbnet.org] On
> > Behalf
> > Of
> > > John G. Heim
> > > Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 7:32 PM
> > > To: NFB Talk Mailing List
> > > Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] To Be or Not to Be, Irritated
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > Holy cow! We don't *HAVE* accessible money. To suggest that this
> > guy's
> > > attitude is the result of accessible money or audible walk signals
> > is
> > > ridiculous.
> > >
> > > If someone already thinks blind people can't do anything, how in the
> > world
> > > are you going to convince him otherwise if you can't even tell your
> > own
> > > money apart?
> > >
> > > Man, this is ridiculous. I've never seen such a series of absurd
> > > rationalizations in my life.
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
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