[nfb-talk] Fw: To Be or Not to Be, Irritated
Constance Canode
satin-bear at sbcglobal.net
Tue May 13 04:48:55 CDT 2008
Hello all,
I live in Madison, WI and have also never signed
up for paratransit. The forms that you have to
fill out are absolutely incredible and the fact
that I would have to come up with a reason other
than blindness, such as inability to walk a long
distance or somthing like that keeps me from
signing up. I am an excellent traveler as well
and I think that the paratransit services should
be reserved for those who really need it. If a
person lives far from a bus stop or cannot travel
for other reasons, go for it. However, I would
rather pay full fare on the bus or use a cab to
get where I need to go. I have heard many
complaints about the paratransit services here in
Madison with rides being late or sometimes not
showing up at all or having to wait much longer
for a para ride than a taxi. My husband doesn't
use it either and swares that he will not. I
just hate the fact that you have to lie to get
the service. What angers me are able-bodied
blind people here in our state who use it and
don't need it. I know of several who are
perfectly good travelers and have no other
physical problems and still use it, so maybe lazy
is not such a misused word after all.
Connie Canode
At 09:32 PM 5/12/2008, you wrote:
>I know people that live in Illinois, where we can ride the fixed routes for
>free, and they still will take the parra transit.
>and the last place that I worked, all the blind people would gripe about
>spending all there money on the call a ride service, I would tell them to
>just take the bus and train, The other problem is that the blind schools
>don't teach people to travel good like the NFB training centers do.
>I know people that have good jobs working for the state, and they can't
>cross the street, they will spend all there pay checks on these services.
>another problem is that in ST. Louis, I know this because I'm from there, is
>that the crime is so hi, people are scared to ride the train, they have
>people getting shot every day, I have a female friend that lives and works
>in ST. Louis, she will take the call a ride service when It's dark, and the
>bus in the day time.
>I don't use the parra transit my self, I'm the best traveler you will ever
>meet.
>When I lived in a different state, I took It to work just until I got used
>to the area.
>So some times It really helps to have this service, but most people that
>ride It shouldn't ride It.
>But some people really have no choice but to ride It.
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Wm. Ritchhart" <william.ritchhart at sbcglobal.net>
>To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 3:14 PM
>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Fw: To Be or Not to Be, Irritated
>
>
>Aaron,
>
>I really do not know how to answer your scenario. In most places where
>Para transit is available, I believe that all the variables you list
>could be found to make it an even choice. Your scenario has one better
>than the other.
>
>
>I know for me personally, the most important things were:
>
>1. Home must be on a good fix route bus line.
>2. Home must be in a quiet neighborhood, with a low crime rate.
>3. Home had to be a price I could afford.
>4. Home had to have the things I wanted in a home. (Size, Number of
>bedrooms, Number of bath rooms...)
>
>
>All of the above could have been found in my city. Both where fix-route
>and only Para transit were options. Do you think it would be right for
>me to choose a home that caused me to consume resources needed by a
>person with real need? I do not use Para transit. I have fairly good
>mobility skills and I believe I should leave the Para transit for those
>who really need it. On the very rare occasions I have rode on Para
>transit, it was as a guest of a Para transit user. I was blown away by
>the number of people who boarded the bus who had better travel skills
>than myself. Add to that the number of people who have a real need for
>the service and cannot get the transportation they need; due to system
>over load, it boggles the mind.
>
>What I advocate is simply allowing transit systems to define eligibility
>on clearly defined standards of need that provides the service for the
>truly needy and requires the rest to take responsibility for their own
>travel needs. We should not subsidize those who are lazy or who make
>poor choices. We have an obligation to help our fellow citizens who
>really need our help.
>
>
>
>William
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: nfb-talk-bounces+william.ritchhart=sbcglobal.net at nfbnet.org
>[mailto:nfb-talk-bounces+william.ritchhart=sbcglobal.net at nfbnet.org] On
>Behalf Of Aaron Cannon
>Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 9:55 AM
>To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Fw: To Be or Not to Be, Irritated
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: RIPEMD160
>
>Hi William.
>
>Let's say for example that I have a choice of where I will live between
>two
>houses. The first is on a bus rout, and the second is not, but it does
>have
>para-transit service available. The first house is more expensive than
>the
>second, but not so much as to make it out of the question. The second
>house
>is situated in more the type of atmosphere I would prefer to live in,
>but
>the first is not so bad as to be out of the question.
>
>If I choose to live in the second house, and I use para-transit, is that
>an
>abuse of the system?
>I do agree with you that a lot of people are abusing the system and that
>it
>does hurt us, but I think we might differ somewhat on how we define
>abuse.
>
>Please also know that I am not simply arguing for the sake of doing so.
>I
>am genuinely curious how folks feel about para-transit.
>
>Sincerely
>Aaron Cannon
>
>
>- --
>Skype: cannona
>MSN/Windows Messenger: cannona at hotmail.com (don't send email to the
>hotmail
>address.)
>- ----- Original Message -----
>From: "Wm. Ritchhart" <william.ritchhart at sbcglobal.net>
>To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2008 7:05 PM
>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Fw: To Be or Not to Be, Irritated
>
>
>Aaron,
>
>You did indeed miss something! Read my post again. Pay careful
>attention to the word CHOOSE!.
>
>I have no problem with any blind person who really needs Para transit
>using it. I do have a problem with blind people who make choices that
>make them dependent by choice. These people and the lazy are the ones
>who make Para transit unavailable or inconvenient for the ones who truly
>need it.
>
>
>
>
>William
>
>
>- -----Original Message-----
>From: nfb-talk-bounces+william.ritchhart=sbcglobal.net at nfbnet.org
>[mailto:nfb-talk-bounces+william.ritchhart=sbcglobal.net at nfbnet.org] On
>Behalf Of Aaron Cannon
>Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2008 5:26 PM
>To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Fw: To Be or Not to Be, Irritated
>
>- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: RIPEMD160
>
>That's interesting that you would lump those who use para-transit
>because
>they are lazy in with those who use it because they live far from a bus
>route. Frankly, I don't think that's fair. If all municipalities had
>good
>bus service, and if the cost of housing and crime rate was static no
>matter
>where you lived, and if there were no other variables that would make it
>more advantageous to live off the beaten path, then I might agree with
>you.
>However, sometimes, living far from a bus route is the only reasonable
>choice.
>
>Were I in that circumstance, I don't think I would have an issue with
>using
>para-transit. Although, it wouldn't be my first choice. Depending on
>para-transit to get you anywhere regularly and on time is a gamble. My
>first choice would be to hire a driver or carpool, but if that weren't
>an
>option, I wouldn't see a problem with using para-transit.
>
>Am I missing something? I very well may be, so if so, please do tell.
>
>Thanks.
>
>Aaron
>
>
>- - --
>Skype: cannona
>MSN/Windows Messenger: cannona at hotmail.com (don't send email to the
>hotmail
>address.)
>- - ----- Original Message -----
>From: "Wm. Ritchhart" <william.ritchhart at sbcglobal.net>
>To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2008 9:51 AM
>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Fw: To Be or Not to Be, Irritated
>
>
>Mike,
>
>I had a view like Bennett's. However it has modified somewhat over the
>past few years. I for the longest time believed that no blind person
>had any business using Para-transit. However I have seen some blind
>folks who do to their abilities will never be able to independently
>travel. These people need Para-transit to avoid getting themselves hurt
>or killed.
>
>The problem is those blind people who use Para-transit because they are
>to lazy to use the regular transit. I also know of many blind people
>who use Para-transit because they choose to live where Para-transit is
>their only choice. These folks do great damage to others from their
>choices. They are the ones who should be forced off of Para-transit.
>However they cannot be removed.
>
>I am in favor of requiring that true need be demonstrated before we
>allow blind people on to Para-transit. That I am sure is a minority
>view. We require means test for all kinds of other services for people.
>I see nothing wrong with a means-test of sorts for Para-transit.
>
>
>William
>
>
>- - -----Original Message-----
>From: nfb-talk-bounces+william.ritchhart=sbcglobal.net at nfbnet.org
>[mailto:nfb-talk-bounces+william.ritchhart=sbcglobal.net at nfbnet.org] On
>Behalf Of Mike Freeman
>Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 11:17 PM
>To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>Subject: [nfb-talk] Fw: To Be or Not to Be, Irritated
>
>- - ----- Original Message -----
>From: Bennett
>To: Mike Freeman
>Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 6:11 PM
>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] To Be or Not to Be, Irritated
>
>
>This is great. Over on blindlaw, some folks are opining about whether
>blindness is a mobility impairment, and justifying why they use
>paratransit. I have modified my position a bit on paratransit. I can
>think of situations where it is necessary, particularly if there are no
>fixed routes in the area. However, when a blind person can take a bus,
>train, plane, etc, I don't believe a disability based transit system is
>nnecessary for the blind, and it could do us severe dammage as well.
>
>I travel quite a bit in different and new parts of the country for my
>job. I wouldn't nor could I ask my employer to provide a guide, someone
>
>to take me to different places. I would soon not be assigned to the
>great on-site visits, etc, because the budget wouldn't support travel
>for two. (I have a personal experience that would confirm this.) If I
>can afford to pay a driver, I do it. Transit sometimes makes it a long
>tgrip if I have to go somewhere, but I don't consider that a mobility
>issue.
>
>finally, I am extremely concerned when folks haven't had the training,
>and need someone to help them every step of the way to a new place, or
>even in large, not blind friendly hotels, etc. As the Mikes point out,
>we *must* learn to get along in a sighted world. We *must* travel
>independently, without assistance where we can. We can ask directions,
>and even ask confirming questions along the way, but we can find our
>destinations even when new and out of the way by just keeping on and
>getting there. some would say, they'd rather be led or taken somewhere
>so they wouldn't look like they are lost, or cause others to be burdened
>
>by us. I believe this is purely and simply a false rationale for not
>improving in mobility skills. It is because of fear of the unknown, in
>short fear of being less dependent on sighted help.
>
> I contend, we are doing a great disservice to ourselves, and the other
>blind persons--we are demonstgrating incompetence, and hurting our image
>
>as equal partners in the world when we unnecessarily need a guide in our
>
>travels. It might be more comfortable to let a sighted person lead us
>around, but it certainly doesn't make us equal partners. We will always
>
>be thought of as needing help. Unable to do the average job, etc,
>without being given everything, lead around and accommodated in every
>way.
>
>Please don't misunderstand, I am talking about the way we function in
>the world. I am not trying to dennigrate sighted guides at all. I use
>one when necessary, and even convenient. I enjoy and feel fortunate to
>have friends that don't mind, and even like to walk together. But I
>also know, and am very confident. travelling separately, and without
>worry.
>
>Doctor Jernigan's article on "The Nature of Independence" is excellent
>concerning these issues.
>
>Just my rant for the evening. (grin.
>
>/s/
>
>Bennett Prows
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Mike Freeman
> To: Bennett Prows
> Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 5:10 PM
> Subject: Fw: [nfb-talk] To Be or Not to Be, Irritated
>
>
> Right on!
>
> Mike Freeman
> ... "It is human nature to think wisely and act foolishly." -- Anatole
>
>France
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Michael Bullis
> To: 'NFB Talk Mailing List'
> Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 2:35 PM
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] To Be or Not to Be, Irritated
>
>
> I would second Mike's thoughts about excessive accommodation. The
> unfortunate reality is that when you go to work there will be little
>or no
> accommodation--particularly in private industry and/or in small
>businesses.
> You have to figure out how to get memo's, strategic plans, the bosses
>next
> great idea. You make friends with secretaries, function in meetings
>without
> the print document, ask questions that reveal information without
>making a
> big deal, or no deal at all if you're smart, about the fact that a
>document
> wasn't provided to you in advance in an accessible format. It's about
> survival skills. It's about problem solving. It's about functioning
>in a
> sighted world and dealing with it.
>
> Unfortunately, schools actually do much to inhibit the learning of
>these
> much needed skills. They become enablers of dependent behaviours in
>the
> name of providing access. I see far to many young people who obtain
>jobs
> right out of college and then languish, unpromoted and clearly not on
>a
> career track. The person blaims it on discrimination and on
>unfairness.
> True, true. But, with a little savy, that blind person could move up,
>
>could
> find that career path. Ultimately, it comes down to seeing ones self
>as
> being personally responsible for the outcome and finding a way to get
>there.
>
> The law be damned as far as I'm concerned. We should only be asking
>society
> for things we absolutely need, not things that make our lives more
> convenient. I am one of those who think that accessible voting is
>probably
> a case in which we should have left the matter alone. Yes, yes, I
>know,
> "It's a right" and all that. But, frankly, I was doing just fine
>without
> that particular right and we have heaped mountains of attention on
>ourselves
> and our so-called right. Let's remember that no right is obtained
>without
> the backlash of hostility. This hostility will come through our fight
>
>for
> accessible voting. It will come through our insistence that quiet
>cars make
> noise. It will come if our money should be require to be accessible.
>It
> comes with our insistence that the web be accessible.
>
> What bothers me most about these discussions isn't that we have them.
>It is
> that there is far to little consideration amongst some groups about
>the
> price to be paid. The price in lost jobs because employers think we
>can't
> deal with our money, the price to be paid because they think we can't
>even
> cross streets unless we have a special traffic signal, Etc. For my
>money,
> (accessible or not), if I'm going to pay a price to society, I want to
>
>make
> sure it's for something I absolutely need, not just something that
>would be
> nice. Underlying our fight for equal treatment needs to be a deep
> cognisance of our need to take personal responsibility for our
>blindness.
> Mike Bullis
> Baltimore Maryland
> Mike Bullis
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfb-talk-bounces+mabullis=hotmail.com at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces+mabullis=hotmail.com at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>
>Mike
> Freeman
> Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 4:29 PM
> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] To Be or Not to Be, Irritated
>
> Joseph:
>
> You cite Auburn U as a model of DSS functioning. But are we really
>doing
> students a favor if we provide them with something they will no longer
>
>have
> on the "outside"? I think part of our problems today stems from the
>fact
> that students come to expect that most everything will be provided for
>
>them
> and when they hit the world of competitive industry and find that
>they've
> been living in a fools' paradise, they scream "discrimination" bloody
>murder
> because they haven't learned yet that in the real world, they are
> responsible in large measure for their own accommodations. Never mind
> whether it's "fair" or not -- the question of fairness is largely
> irrelevant!
>
> Mike Freeman
> .. "It is human nature to think wisely and act foolishly." -- Anatole
> France
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: T. Joseph Carter
> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
> Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 2:06 AM
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] To Be or Not to Be, Irritated
>
>
> Jim,
>
> In special education, we often hear that if one student gets
> something,
> they all should get it. That's fair, right? Let's consider the
> question
> of what's fair from two different perspectives:
>
> Let's say we were both children, maybe eight years old. You see
>that
> I
> just got a cookie for my good behavior. You want one too, don't
>you?
> You
> have also been on your best behavior, and so you deserve a cookie if
>
>I
> do!
> It's only fair--fairness means we get the same, you and I.
>
> But let us say for a moment that we both live in a poverty-stricken
> village and there is a food shortage. The United States has just
> dropped
> two large crates of food to help feed the ten families that live in
> the
> village. We, the heads of our households, each take one tenth of
>the
> food
> to feed our families. It's only fair, right? I have a family of
> three,
> and you have a family of seven. You have more than twice as many
> people
> to feed, so the food should be divided in such a way that we each
>have
> enough to feed our families for a time. Fairness means not that we
> get
> the same, but rather that we each get what we need of the resources
> that
> are available.
>
> Young children cannot understand this second form of fairness
>because
> they
> have not yet developed the ability to view the world from a
> perspective of
> someone other than themselves yet. In special education, we
>sometimes
> have to remind people that this second sort of fairness is what
>really
> is
> important here. There are finite resources, and we must divide them
> among
> our students according to the needs of each, not so that the
>students
> each
> get the same thing. That means one student sometimes gets things
> another
> does not, even if they don't understand why that is.
>
> By now I'm sure you realize I mean to say that the situation is the
> same
> with resources given to adults with disabilities. Sighted people
>have
> a
> light to help them cross. Wheelchair users have a ramp to help them
> cross. Why should not a blind person have a beep to help him cross?
> Because the sighted person needs the light, not knowing the rules of
> crossing a street in the same way that we do. A wheelchair user may
> not
> be able to cross the street without that ramp. But you and I don't
> need
> any help crossing that street because we know how to do it. So the
> resources that might be applied to making a chirping signal should
> rightly
> go elsewhere.
>
>
> I look at the situation in much the same way. Either we adapt to
>the
> world or we make the world adapt to us. The NFB generally speaking
> says
> we should adapt to the world. That's our default view. It is only
> when
> the world deliberately chooses to exclude us do we take action to
> change
> the world (as you note, Target comes to mind.)
>
> Otherwise, we encourage people who are blind to do the adapting.
>It's
> more work, it's a lot harder, and the results aren't always what
>we'd
> like
> them to be, but it's a very realistic viewpoint in that the majority
> of
> the world simply doesn't care about us enough to give us a second
> thought.
> Often, we don't even rate a first thought!
>
> The ACB takes the other approach, and it is equally valid, if
>somewhat
> less realistic in my own view. They seek to change the world so
>that
> blind people have the same opportunities as sighted people, without
> jumping through lots of hoops first. We Federationists generally
> disagree
> with this approach first because it isn't actually going to happen
>any
> time soon, and second because sometimes sighted people get the wrong
> impression if they see things being done differently for us. We
>want
> to
> change attitudes and low expectations, not reinforce them.
>
> The NFB way isn't always right. The currency case is one area I
> believe
> this to be so--just because we CAN manage our money using
>alternative
> techniques does not mean the inability to tell which of two bills is
> the
> $20 and which is the dollar is a good thing. Oh sure we can do it
>if
> we
> have a pricey little gadget and maybe a fresh set of batteries, but
>a
> little measuring key that folds up to the size of a credit card
>would
> be
> better.
>
> I believe this is a resource that should be allocated to us not
> because we
> must have it, but because it is the right thing to do. That doesn't
> make
> me ready to join the ACB--I don't subscribe to their view of how the
> world
> should fit blind people. This time, though, they've hit upon
> something
> important. Not AS important as, say, solving the hybrid car problem
> or
> ensuring that blind people have the opportunities and skills needed
>to
> find successful and meaningful employment, but important all the
>same.
>
>
> As to the DSO issue... The best DSO I have heard of to date with
> regard
> to alternative format textbooks is Auburn University (thanks again
>to
> Dezman), where the university takes care of all of that stuff when
> possible well in advance of the student having the reasonable
> opportunity
> to do the necessary things themselves. They do it not to discourage
> students from advocating for themselves or developing and applying
>the
> best alternative techniques they can. No, they do it to make sure
> that
> when the term starts, you aren't immediately behind because you're
> dealing
> with textbook issues.
>
> If for some reason that happens, the DSO will already have
> communicated
> with the professor about it. Sometimes the right thing is to
> encourage
> personal responsibility and self-advocacy. Sometimes the right
>thing
> is
> to give them the tools they need to be successful when they need
>those
> tools, and not letting them have the need or opportunity to practice
>
>a
> maladaptive skill like making excuses, even valid ones.
>
> In Auburn's case, it also means never asking a student to pay
>hundreds
> of
> dollars for textbooks and then surrender them to be literally
> destroyed
> for the DSO's convenience and budget. But that's another thread and
> another list. *grin*
>
> Joseph
>
> On Fri, May 09, 2008 at 02:28:04PM -0600, Jim Marks wrote:
> > Thanks, Joseph. Your thoughtful response is not only good, it's
> > appreciated.
> >
> > John and others often toss analogies into discussions that go like
> this:
> > Wheelchair users get something, sighted people get something, so
> blind
> > people should get the same thing. I worked for several years in a
> center
> > for independent living. These centers focus mostly on making
> environments
> > accessible by people with disabilities. As a blind center staff
> member, I
> > never felt like the environmental remedy was doing the job for the
> blind. I
> > was looking for a better answer and found it in the NFB. There I
> learned
> > about making choices that presumed personal responsibility and
> power. I
> > learned that all people with disabilities have two choices in life
> in order
> > to compete on equal footing with our peers. We either change
> ourselves
> > through positive attitudes and actions or we change the
>environment.
> Most
> > of us blend the two options for the best effect. It is possible
>to
> > over-emphasize either option. The NFB certainly is in favor of
> > environmental accessibility. We see it in things like the Target
> website
> > lawsuit and in the development of technologies. However, the
>first
> tool
> > applied in the NFB philosophy is personal responsibility and
>power.
> It's
> > hard to put into words that don't sound like clichés, but the NFB
> acts on
> > the principle that it's OK to be blind. The more we believe in
> ourselves,
> > the less we look for environmental solutions. And as a
>consequence
> of the
> > self-reliance and self-determination, we often also find ourselves
> in the
> > role of the givers rather than the takers. At the same time, we
> should not
> > shy away from asking for environmental modifications that make
> sense.
> >
> > One last thing I wanted to say is that I am professionally
> responsible for
> > access to my university by all people with disabilities. The NFB
> philosophy
> > serves this cause well, especially when one pays attention to the
> individual
> > impact of various disabilities. It is possible to deliver access
> services
> > in such a way that the disability service office creates
>dependence.
> We can
> > kill opportunities for the people we serve by doing for them the
> things they
> > can do for themselves. I grow weary of those who want to solve
> every
> > disability issue with environmental fixes. People must learn how
>to
> > function in any environment, accessible or otherwise. The last
> thing we
> > want to do is to create a society of people who wait for others to
> take the
> > point on what amounts to very personal functions. Some have a
>right
> to more
> > environmental fixes than others due to the logical link between
>the
> impact
> > of their disabilities and the program modification. But blind
> students get
> > trapped in one-size-fits-all approaches that never look at what
> blind people
> > can do for themselves. This is at least one reason by blind and
> visually
> > impaired college students comprise the only group of students with
> > disabilities in higher education that's shrinking. Over reliance
>on
> > environmental fixes hurt blind people. Yet we still see people
> calling for
> > those fixes on the grounds that others get them. We also see
>people
> using
> > environmental modifications as though they are cures for the
> disabilities.
> > Access will never turn a blind person into a sighted person. The
> goal is
> > not to be a sighted person who cannot see, but rather a blind
>person
> who
> > functions well as a blind person and who is a peer in a diverse
> world.
> >
> > -------
> > Jim Marks
> > blind.grizzly at gmail.com
> >
> >
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