[nfb-talk] Fw: To Be or Not to Be, Irritated
Aaron Cannon
cannona at fireantproductions.com
Mon May 12 14:20:43 CDT 2008
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Interesting. Thanks for both replies. I will have to give this some further
thought.
Fortunately, at present for me at least, the point is moot, as the bus stop
is about 50 steps from my front door. But I was curious, like I said.
Thanks.
Aaron
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- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Powers, Terry (NIH/OD/DEAS) [E]" <powerst at dcpcepn.nci.nih.gov>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 1:18 PM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Fw: To Be or Not to Be, Irritated
I would not say it is abusing the system. I would say it is poor planning.
When I bought my last condo I had a few requests; no stairs, a londry room,
at least 2 bedrooms, 2 baths, near shopping and I made sure there was
bussing near by. I use metro access to get to work and my husband picks me
up at night. This prevents to much wair and tair on the car. When he is
not around, there will be busses, metro access and cabs for me to use.
Also, I lucked out and my sister moved near by. I made sure there were
busses because I did not want to totally have to depend on metro access, or
cabs. I still may have to hitch a ride to the bus stop due to other health
problems, but at least all my neads are there for when I need them. I would
never want to just have to live off the support of Metro access. My morning
ride is usually very good, but the later the worse it gets.
Terry Powers
- -----Original Message-----
From: Aaron Cannon [mailto:cannona at fireantproductions.com]
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 9:55 AM
To: NFB Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Fw: To Be or Not to Be, Irritated
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Hi William.
Let's say for example that I have a choice of where I will live between two
houses. The first is on a bus rout, and the second is not, but it does have
para-transit service available. The first house is more expensive than the
second, but not so much as to make it out of the question. The second house
is situated in more the type of atmosphere I would prefer to live in, but
the first is not so bad as to be out of the question.
If I choose to live in the second house, and I use para-transit, is that an
abuse of the system?
I do agree with you that a lot of people are abusing the system and that it
does hurt us, but I think we might differ somewhat on how we define abuse.
Please also know that I am not simply arguing for the sake of doing so. I
am genuinely curious how folks feel about para-transit.
Sincerely
Aaron Cannon
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- - ----- Original Message -----
From: "Wm. Ritchhart" <william.ritchhart at sbcglobal.net>
To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2008 7:05 PM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Fw: To Be or Not to Be, Irritated
Aaron,
You did indeed miss something! Read my post again. Pay careful attention
to the word CHOOSE!.
I have no problem with any blind person who really needs Para transit using
it. I do have a problem with blind people who make choices that make them
dependent by choice. These people and the lazy are the ones who make Para
transit unavailable or inconvenient for the ones who truly need it.
William
- - -----Original Message-----
From: nfb-talk-bounces+william.ritchhart=sbcglobal.net at nfbnet.org
[mailto:nfb-talk-bounces+william.ritchhart=sbcglobal.net at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Aaron Cannon
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2008 5:26 PM
To: NFB Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Fw: To Be or Not to Be, Irritated
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That's interesting that you would lump those who use para-transit because
they are lazy in with those who use it because they live far from a bus
route. Frankly, I don't think that's fair. If all municipalities had good
bus service, and if the cost of housing and crime rate was static no matter
where you lived, and if there were no other variables that would make it
more advantageous to live off the beaten path, then I might agree with you.
However, sometimes, living far from a bus route is the only reasonable
choice.
Were I in that circumstance, I don't think I would have an issue with using
para-transit. Although, it wouldn't be my first choice. Depending on
para-transit to get you anywhere regularly and on time is a gamble. My
first choice would be to hire a driver or carpool, but if that weren't an
option, I wouldn't see a problem with using para-transit.
Am I missing something? I very well may be, so if so, please do tell.
Thanks.
Aaron
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- - - ----- Original Message -----
From: "Wm. Ritchhart" <william.ritchhart at sbcglobal.net>
To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2008 9:51 AM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Fw: To Be or Not to Be, Irritated
Mike,
I had a view like Bennett's. However it has modified somewhat over the past
few years. I for the longest time believed that no blind person had any
business using Para-transit. However I have seen some blind folks who do to
their abilities will never be able to independently travel. These people
need Para-transit to avoid getting themselves hurt or killed.
The problem is those blind people who use Para-transit because they are to
lazy to use the regular transit. I also know of many blind people who use
Para-transit because they choose to live where Para-transit is their only
choice. These folks do great damage to others from their choices. They are
the ones who should be forced off of Para-transit.
However they cannot be removed.
I am in favor of requiring that true need be demonstrated before we allow
blind people on to Para-transit. That I am sure is a minority view. We
require means test for all kinds of other services for people.
I see nothing wrong with a means-test of sorts for Para-transit.
William
- - - -----Original Message-----
From: nfb-talk-bounces+william.ritchhart=sbcglobal.net at nfbnet.org
[mailto:nfb-talk-bounces+william.ritchhart=sbcglobal.net at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Mike Freeman
Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 11:17 PM
To: NFB Talk Mailing List
Subject: [nfb-talk] Fw: To Be or Not to Be, Irritated
- - - ----- Original Message -----
From: Bennett
To: Mike Freeman
Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 6:11 PM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] To Be or Not to Be, Irritated
This is great. Over on blindlaw, some folks are opining about whether
blindness is a mobility impairment, and justifying why they use paratransit.
I have modified my position a bit on paratransit. I can think of situations
where it is necessary, particularly if there are no fixed routes in the
area. However, when a blind person can take a bus, train, plane, etc, I
don't believe a disability based transit system is nnecessary for the blind,
and it could do us severe dammage as well.
I travel quite a bit in different and new parts of the country for my job.
I wouldn't nor could I ask my employer to provide a guide, someone
to take me to different places. I would soon not be assigned to the great
on-site visits, etc, because the budget wouldn't support travel for two. (I
have a personal experience that would confirm this.) If I can afford to pay
a driver, I do it. Transit sometimes makes it a long tgrip if I have to go
somewhere, but I don't consider that a mobility issue.
finally, I am extremely concerned when folks haven't had the training, and
need someone to help them every step of the way to a new place, or even in
large, not blind friendly hotels, etc. As the Mikes point out, we *must*
learn to get along in a sighted world. We *must* travel independently,
without assistance where we can. We can ask directions, and even ask
confirming questions along the way, but we can find our destinations even
when new and out of the way by just keeping on and getting there. some
would say, they'd rather be led or taken somewhere so they wouldn't look
like they are lost, or cause others to be burdened
by us. I believe this is purely and simply a false rationale for not
improving in mobility skills. It is because of fear of the unknown, in
short fear of being less dependent on sighted help.
I contend, we are doing a great disservice to ourselves, and the other
blind persons--we are demonstgrating incompetence, and hurting our image
as equal partners in the world when we unnecessarily need a guide in our
travels. It might be more comfortable to let a sighted person lead us
around, but it certainly doesn't make us equal partners. We will always
be thought of as needing help. Unable to do the average job, etc, without
being given everything, lead around and accommodated in every way.
Please don't misunderstand, I am talking about the way we function in the
world. I am not trying to dennigrate sighted guides at all. I use one when
necessary, and even convenient. I enjoy and feel fortunate to have friends
that don't mind, and even like to walk together. But I also know, and am
very confident. travelling separately, and without worry.
Doctor Jernigan's article on "The Nature of Independence" is excellent
concerning these issues.
Just my rant for the evening. (grin.
/s/
Bennett Prows
----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Freeman
To: Bennett Prows
Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 5:10 PM
Subject: Fw: [nfb-talk] To Be or Not to Be, Irritated
Right on!
Mike Freeman
... "It is human nature to think wisely and act foolishly." -- Anatole
France
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Bullis
To: 'NFB Talk Mailing List'
Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 2:35 PM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] To Be or Not to Be, Irritated
I would second Mike's thoughts about excessive accommodation. The
unfortunate reality is that when you go to work there will be little or no
accommodation--particularly in private industry and/or in small
businesses.
You have to figure out how to get memo's, strategic plans, the bosses next
great idea. You make friends with secretaries, function in meetings
without
the print document, ask questions that reveal information without making a
big deal, or no deal at all if you're smart, about the fact that a
document
wasn't provided to you in advance in an accessible format. It's about
survival skills. It's about problem solving. It's about functioning in a
sighted world and dealing with it.
Unfortunately, schools actually do much to inhibit the learning of these
much needed skills. They become enablers of dependent behaviours in the
name of providing access. I see far to many young people who obtain jobs
right out of college and then languish, unpromoted and clearly not on a
career track. The person blaims it on discrimination and on unfairness.
True, true. But, with a little savy, that blind person could move up,
could
find that career path. Ultimately, it comes down to seeing ones self as
being personally responsible for the outcome and finding a way to get
there.
The law be damned as far as I'm concerned. We should only be asking
society
for things we absolutely need, not things that make our lives more
convenient. I am one of those who think that accessible voting is
probably
a case in which we should have left the matter alone. Yes, yes, I know,
"It's a right" and all that. But, frankly, I was doing just fine without
that particular right and we have heaped mountains of attention on
ourselves
and our so-called right. Let's remember that no right is obtained without
the backlash of hostility. This hostility will come through our fight
for
accessible voting. It will come through our insistence that quiet cars
make
noise. It will come if our money should be require to be accessible.
It
comes with our insistence that the web be accessible.
What bothers me most about these discussions isn't that we have them.
It is
that there is far to little consideration amongst some groups about the
price to be paid. The price in lost jobs because employers think we can't
deal with our money, the price to be paid because they think we can't even
cross streets unless we have a special traffic signal, Etc. For my money,
(accessible or not), if I'm going to pay a price to society, I want to
make
sure it's for something I absolutely need, not just something that would
be
nice. Underlying our fight for equal treatment needs to be a deep
cognisance of our need to take personal responsibility for our blindness.
Mike Bullis
Baltimore Maryland
Mike Bullis
-----Original Message-----
From: nfb-talk-bounces+mabullis=hotmail.com at nfbnet.org
[mailto:nfb-talk-bounces+mabullis=hotmail.com at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
Mike
Freeman
Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 4:29 PM
To: NFB Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] To Be or Not to Be, Irritated
Joseph:
You cite Auburn U as a model of DSS functioning. But are we really doing
students a favor if we provide them with something they will no longer
have
on the "outside"? I think part of our problems today stems from the fact
that students come to expect that most everything will be provided for
them
and when they hit the world of competitive industry and find that they've
been living in a fools' paradise, they scream "discrimination" bloody
murder
because they haven't learned yet that in the real world, they are
responsible in large measure for their own accommodations. Never mind
whether it's "fair" or not -- the question of fairness is largely
irrelevant!
Mike Freeman
.. "It is human nature to think wisely and act foolishly." -- Anatole
France
----- Original Message -----
From: T. Joseph Carter
To: NFB Talk Mailing List
Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 2:06 AM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] To Be or Not to Be, Irritated
Jim,
In special education, we often hear that if one student gets
something,
they all should get it. That's fair, right? Let's consider the
question
of what's fair from two different perspectives:
Let's say we were both children, maybe eight years old. You see that
I
just got a cookie for my good behavior. You want one too, don't you?
You
have also been on your best behavior, and so you deserve a cookie if
I
do!
It's only fair--fairness means we get the same, you and I.
But let us say for a moment that we both live in a poverty-stricken
village and there is a food shortage. The United States has just
dropped
two large crates of food to help feed the ten families that live in
the
village. We, the heads of our households, each take one tenth of the
food
to feed our families. It's only fair, right? I have a family of
three,
and you have a family of seven. You have more than twice as many
people
to feed, so the food should be divided in such a way that we each have
enough to feed our families for a time. Fairness means not that we
get
the same, but rather that we each get what we need of the resources
that
are available.
Young children cannot understand this second form of fairness because
they
have not yet developed the ability to view the world from a
perspective of
someone other than themselves yet. In special education, we sometimes
have to remind people that this second sort of fairness is what really
is
important here. There are finite resources, and we must divide them
among
our students according to the needs of each, not so that the students
each
get the same thing. That means one student sometimes gets things
another
does not, even if they don't understand why that is.
By now I'm sure you realize I mean to say that the situation is the
same
with resources given to adults with disabilities. Sighted people have
a
light to help them cross. Wheelchair users have a ramp to help them
cross. Why should not a blind person have a beep to help him cross?
Because the sighted person needs the light, not knowing the rules of
crossing a street in the same way that we do. A wheelchair user may
not
be able to cross the street without that ramp. But you and I don't
need
any help crossing that street because we know how to do it. So the
resources that might be applied to making a chirping signal should
rightly
go elsewhere.
I look at the situation in much the same way. Either we adapt to the
world or we make the world adapt to us. The NFB generally speaking
says
we should adapt to the world. That's our default view. It is only
when
the world deliberately chooses to exclude us do we take action to
change
the world (as you note, Target comes to mind.)
Otherwise, we encourage people who are blind to do the adapting.
It's
more work, it's a lot harder, and the results aren't always what we'd
like
them to be, but it's a very realistic viewpoint in that the majority
of
the world simply doesn't care about us enough to give us a second
thought.
Often, we don't even rate a first thought!
The ACB takes the other approach, and it is equally valid, if somewhat
less realistic in my own view. They seek to change the world so that
blind people have the same opportunities as sighted people, without
jumping through lots of hoops first. We Federationists generally
disagree
with this approach first because it isn't actually going to happen any
time soon, and second because sometimes sighted people get the wrong
impression if they see things being done differently for us. We want
to
change attitudes and low expectations, not reinforce them.
The NFB way isn't always right. The currency case is one area I
believe
this to be so--just because we CAN manage our money using alternative
techniques does not mean the inability to tell which of two bills is
the
$20 and which is the dollar is a good thing. Oh sure we can do it if
we
have a pricey little gadget and maybe a fresh set of batteries, but a
little measuring key that folds up to the size of a credit card would
be
better.
I believe this is a resource that should be allocated to us not
because we
must have it, but because it is the right thing to do. That doesn't
make
me ready to join the ACB--I don't subscribe to their view of how the
world
should fit blind people. This time, though, they've hit upon
something
important. Not AS important as, say, solving the hybrid car problem
or
ensuring that blind people have the opportunities and skills needed to
find successful and meaningful employment, but important all the same.
As to the DSO issue... The best DSO I have heard of to date with
regard
to alternative format textbooks is Auburn University (thanks again to
Dezman), where the university takes care of all of that stuff when
possible well in advance of the student having the reasonable
opportunity
to do the necessary things themselves. They do it not to discourage
students from advocating for themselves or developing and applying the
best alternative techniques they can. No, they do it to make sure
that
when the term starts, you aren't immediately behind because you're
dealing
with textbook issues.
If for some reason that happens, the DSO will already have
communicated
with the professor about it. Sometimes the right thing is to
encourage
personal responsibility and self-advocacy. Sometimes the right thing
is
to give them the tools they need to be successful when they need those
tools, and not letting them have the need or opportunity to practice
a
maladaptive skill like making excuses, even valid ones.
In Auburn's case, it also means never asking a student to pay hundreds
of
dollars for textbooks and then surrender them to be literally
destroyed
for the DSO's convenience and budget. But that's another thread and
another list. *grin*
Joseph
On Fri, May 09, 2008 at 02:28:04PM -0600, Jim Marks wrote:
> Thanks, Joseph. Your thoughtful response is not only good, it's
> appreciated.
>
> John and others often toss analogies into discussions that go like
this:
> Wheelchair users get something, sighted people get something, so
blind
> people should get the same thing. I worked for several years in a
center
> for independent living. These centers focus mostly on making
environments
> accessible by people with disabilities. As a blind center staff
member, I
> never felt like the environmental remedy was doing the job for the
blind. I
> was looking for a better answer and found it in the NFB. There I
learned
> about making choices that presumed personal responsibility and
power. I
> learned that all people with disabilities have two choices in life
in order
> to compete on equal footing with our peers. We either change
ourselves
> through positive attitudes and actions or we change the environment.
Most
> of us blend the two options for the best effect. It is possible to
> over-emphasize either option. The NFB certainly is in favor of
> environmental accessibility. We see it in things like the Target
website
> lawsuit and in the development of technologies. However, the first
tool
> applied in the NFB philosophy is personal responsibility and power.
It's
> hard to put into words that don't sound like clichés, but the NFB
acts on
> the principle that it's OK to be blind. The more we believe in
ourselves,
> the less we look for environmental solutions. And as a consequence
of the
> self-reliance and self-determination, we often also find ourselves
in the
> role of the givers rather than the takers. At the same time, we
should not
> shy away from asking for environmental modifications that make
sense.
>
> One last thing I wanted to say is that I am professionally
responsible for
> access to my university by all people with disabilities. The NFB
philosophy
> serves this cause well, especially when one pays attention to the
individual
> impact of various disabilities. It is possible to deliver access
services
> in such a way that the disability service office creates dependence.
We can
> kill opportunities for the people we serve by doing for them the
things they
> can do for themselves. I grow weary of those who want to solve
every
> disability issue with environmental fixes. People must learn how to
> function in any environment, accessible or otherwise. The last
thing we
> want to do is to create a society of people who wait for others to
take the
> point on what amounts to very personal functions. Some have a right
to more
> environmental fixes than others due to the logical link between the
impact
> of their disabilities and the program modification. But blind
students get
> trapped in one-size-fits-all approaches that never look at what
blind people
> can do for themselves. This is at least one reason by blind and
visually
> impaired college students comprise the only group of students with
> disabilities in higher education that's shrinking. Over reliance on
> environmental fixes hurt blind people. Yet we still see people
calling for
> those fixes on the grounds that others get them. We also see people
using
> environmental modifications as though they are cures for the
disabilities.
> Access will never turn a blind person into a sighted person. The
goal is
> not to be a sighted person who cannot see, but rather a blind person
who
> functions well as a blind person and who is a peer in a diverse
world.
>
> -------
> Jim Marks
> blind.grizzly at gmail.com
>
>
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