[nfb-talk] To Be or Not to Be, Irritated
Kirk Harmon
kvh54 at cfl.rr.com
Sat May 10 04:00:30 CDT 2008
Mike, I have been listening to this currency debate for quite some time, as
well as all of us have. My question is, I am not taking any side one way or
another on this subject, however, but why is it the only way to make
currency accessible for the blind is to alter the size and shape of them? I
am sure there is several different ways that would be just as effective
without having to change the current size, therefore causing major modifying
problems for all of the cash registers and currency related items. that are
currently being used and have been for years?I am curious as to why this in
some peoples mind is the only solution. If this is a necessary concern for
some blind individuals then I am sure their can be simpler and cheaper ways
to alter them for identification purposes other than altering their current
sizes! Kirk Harmon
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 9:55 PM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] To Be or Not to Be, Irritated
> Harmeet:
>
> I don't think accessible currency would have an effect on blind persons
> and jobs one way or the other. I just don't think there'd be a grand
> rush to handle such jobs as cashiering because other equipment (such as
> cash registers) would have to be modified and I just don't see the sorts
> of establishments we're talking about giving a tinker's damn about
> making their gear accessible.
>
> In any event, the real reason I introduced the 2002 currency resolution
> was that I did not think it discriminatory that currency isn't
> accessible and I feared -- and still fear -- that the lawsuit could have
> serious blow-back consequences if the adverse ruling was broader than
> the original suit.
>
> Mike Freeman
> ... "It is human nature to think wisely and act foolishly." -- Anatole
> France
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Sekhon, Harmeet
> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
> Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 11:45 AM
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] To Be or Not to Be, Irritated
>
>
> Joe,
>
> This is, by far, the most thurroghly thought out and meaningful
> response
> I've read on this subject since it first came up on lists. It sums up
> very well what many of us have wanted to say and have not, for one
> reason or another. Accessible currency is more a positive than a
> negative, in my opinion, when it comes to the blind person seeking
> employment. That's especially true if that blind person wants a job
> where dealing with paper money is vital to the job duties. Yes, I
> know
> blind people deal with paper currency now. I do. I know that people
> work with it in their jobs with the use of technology. But if it was
> accessible, I think it would open far more doors than it would close.
> It would improve perceptions of us--or perhaps not improve them--but I
> don't think there would really be a backlash. I also believe that you
> would see that blind job seekers might become more confident about
> what
> they can do, rather than a lot of focus on how to obtain the necessary
> technology to do it and possible worries about the limitations of that
> technology.
>
> Harmeet
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfb-talk-bounces+harmeet_sekhon=cable.comcast.com at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces+harmeet_sekhon=cable.comcast.com at nfbnet.org]
> On
> Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter
> Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 11:20 AM
> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] To Be or Not to Be, Irritated
>
> Jim,
>
> The wheelchair user analogy you'd likely get from the ACB is the wrong
> one. (I consider John in the ACB camp since I see him on their lists
> and
> every message he posts to ours is in support of their agenda,
> regardless
> of what he says to us)
>
> When Katie, my GF and a wheelchair user, applies for a job, nobody
> really
> questions whether or not she can get to work every day because she
> lives
> in Portland, Oregon. The entire city has curb cuts at every
> intersection.
> She doesn't need them usually. Any curb or single step of less than
> four
> inches is easy enough for her to navigate. She can get around
> Monmouth
> just fine, and Monmouth has old, broken, bumpy, rocky sidewalks on
> many
> streets, no sidewalks on several, and curb cuts are entirely hit and
> miss.
>
> Now, there are times when navigating in this town means she is walking
> (rolling?) in the street because there literally isn't anywhere else
> for
> her to be, but I do the same thing myself, and we stick to the side of
> the
> road so that cars can easily go around us. Fortunately, in Monmouth,
> there isn't that much traffic except around 5pm as the University
> office
> employees are leaving town.
>
> When I apply for a job, people aren't so sure about me. No of course
> I
> know this going in and I make sure that within five minutes, there can
> be
> no doubt that I can do just about anything they could imagine. I know
> that if I don't do that, I won't be getting the job. It's that
> simple.
>
> That isn't really an argument FOR chirping signals--I don't use the
> things, and frankly even the new ones are an irritating interference
> to
> street crossing. But consider instead the situation with money..
>
> Sighted people don't know and can't imagine how we can avoid being
> ripped
> off several times a day. I do it, but they can't think of how. Now,
> if
> they can't imagine how I'm going to identify the money, are they
> likely
> to
> hire me for a position that includes managing money as part of my
> daily
> job duties? Again, if I can't convince them that I can do it, they
> won't
> hire me.
>
> In that way, the ACB's efforts to secure a currency the rest of the
> world
> KNOWS we can use is a very good thing. I'd go a little further and
> suggest that we need a way to verify the money is the real thing,
> similar
> to the way sighted people use that pen that temporarily changes color
> when
> marked on the higher denomination bills. No cashier I've seen will
> take
> a
> $50 or $100 bill without checking it, and we shouldn't either. Maybe
> in
> addition to making a purple mark on a real $50, it could smell like
> grape
> until the mark fades, I don't know. *grin*
>
> For me, the currency thing is less about the poor blind person being
> unable to spend money without being ripped off--that happens to
> sighted
> people about as often as to us, I suspect, and we have a way to know.
> It's slow, it's inconvenient, and it's a technology-based solution
> that
> costs about $$150 too much in my opinion, but it's there. No, for me
> the
> really big issue is changing that perception that we can't do it.
>
> The other factor is that I'm Catholic and believe strongly in my
> faith--it
> is a Christian ethic that we do things to help others because it is
> the
> right thing to do--not because it's easy or because there's no cost
> involved with doing it or even because they're hopeless without that
> help.
> Would a currency that a blind person could (relatively) quickly and
> safely
> identify without trusted assistance or some slow $200 gadget be
> helpful
> to
> us? Absolutely it would. If it is done the right way, the per-person
> costs are downright reasonable (even if the numbers get large when you
> look at sum totals), and it gives the general public one less thing to
> think we can't do. For these reasons, it should be done.
>
> Now, is this lawsuit by the ACB the right vehicle to do it? Probably
> not.
> Are some of their claims about the plight of the blind person, cheated
> at
> every turn a bit ridiculous? From our perspective, very much so. But
> the
> judge included in his findings of fact that sufficient accessibility
> to
> the currency isn't there. That finding is no longer up for
> debate--you
> don't appeal findings of fact. The findings of law are another
> matter.
>
> GIVEN that the currency is was found to be not sufficiently accessible
> (which is better than saying inaccessible because the latter isn't
> true),
> does the law demand that the government do something about it? The
> ACB
> and the judge say yes. The government says no, and they appealed the
> judge's decision. Now under these circumstances, I hope the ACB wins
> the
> appeal and that either the government decides not to appeal to the
> supreme
> court OR that the supreme court decides not to hear the case--I would
> expect the supreme court to rule against the ACB and take a hammer and
> chisel to the Rehab Act in the process. ACB and NFB would both be
> held
> responsible in my mind if that happens--the ACB for pursuing this
> through
> the courts rather than through the legislators, and the NFB for giving
> them ammunition to do it when we rightly should have stayed out of it.
>
> Incidentally, am I the only one who thinks it is silly that the
> government
> can afford to:
> - send everyone a kicker check
> - bail out big banks who made bad loans
> - possibly bail out homeowners who took loans they can't afford
> - drop the gas tax for the summer, despite economists' claims this
> would
> be a bad idea
> - provide every single household in the country not one but TWO
> set-top
> TV boxes just about for free
> .... but they cannot afford to give vendors a tax break so they can
> update
> their machines to accept a new format to the paper currency gradually
> over
> the next FIFTEEN YEARS it would take to accomplish such a changeover?
>
> Remember class, politicians' first duty is to their re-election
> campaign.
>
> Joseph
>
> On Thu, May 08, 2008 at 10:05:45PM -0600, Jim Marks wrote:
> > John, I am saying you're shooting at the wrong targets. You seem
> like
> a
> > bright enough guy, so I presume you're aim is deliberate. No one
> said
> that
> > accessible money or audible pedestrian signals are the cause of the
> > prejudice. However, they can be and often are the symptoms of the
> > prejudice. Spare us the analogies about wheelchair users and
> sighted
> people
> > getting something we poor blind people do not get. Blind people
> know
> we
> > have to look to ourselves in the things that count. The way I see
> it,
> > accessible money doesn't really matter that much, and audible
> pedestrian
> > signals can be harmful, especially if they are forced on us by
> knotheads who
> > don't really believe in the abilities of the blind. You troll here
> telling
> > the most powerful organization of the blind that we are somehow
> cramping
> > your style. Well, you know what? We're going to do it our way.
> And
> our
> > aim is more than just a matter of bravado and twisting of words. If
> you
> > would simply examine your beliefs and compare them with the ones
> most
> > Federationists hold, you might learn a thing or two. There was a
> time
> when
> > I thought and acted like you are here on NFB-Talk. I woke up to the
> fact
> > that there are no real curb cuts for the blind and that no one was
> looking
> > out for the interests of the blind except for those who understand
> the
> > personal responsibility and positive attitudes bit. You will not
> fix
> > blindness with accessibility alone. Plus, the more you believe in
> the
> > abilities of the blind, the less accessibility you will want.
> >
> > John, I have one last something to tell you. If you don't want to
> know,
> > don't look down. If you were to look down, you would see that you
> are
> > standing on the shoulders of Federationists. We're going to be
> there
> for
> > you regardless of how you spit, fuss, and shake your tiny fists.
> Best
> to
> > you. I really mean it.
> >
> >
> > -------
> > Jim Marks
> > blind.grizzly at gmail.com
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nfb-talk-bounces+blind.grizzly=gmail.com at nfbnet.org
> > [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces+blind.grizzly=gmail.com at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf
> Of
> > John G. Heim
> > Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 7:32 PM
> > To: NFB Talk Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] To Be or Not to Be, Irritated
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > Holy cow! We don't *HAVE* accessible money. To suggest that this
> guy's
> > attitude is the result of accessible money or audible walk signals
> is
> > ridiculous.
> >
> > If someone already thinks blind people can't do anything, how in the
> world
> > are you going to convince him otherwise if you can't even tell your
> own
> > money apart?
> >
> > Man, this is ridiculous. I've never seen such a series of absurd
> > rationalizations in my life.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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