[nfb-talk] NFB philosophy

Sat Apr 26 15:01:59 CDT 2008

I hope this thread ends pretty soon.  I think this has gone on way long
enough.

Michael 

-----Original Message-----
From: nfb-talk-bounces+m.barber=mchsi.com at nfbnet.org
[mailto:nfb-talk-bounces+m.barber=mchsi.com at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Alan
Wheeler
Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2008 2:23 PM
To: 'NFB Talk Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB philosophy

The fact is that I get along just fine without accessible money.  

Alan D Wheeler
<awheeler at gmail.com>Messenger: awheeler1965 at sbcglobal.net
Skype: redwheel1
http://alan-wheeler.blogspot.com/
http://reporter-guy.livejournal.com/

-----Original Message-----
From: nfb-talk-bounces+awheeler1965=gmail.com at nfbnet.org
[mailto:nfb-talk-bounces+awheeler1965=gmail.com at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
John G. Heim
Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2008 2:00 PM
To: NFB Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB philosophy

I am not closed minded. You are. You keep talking about beliefs. I am not
interested in your beliefs. I am interested in facts. Give me facts, and I
will listen.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wm. Ritchhart" <william.ritchhart at sbcglobal.net>
To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 9:19 PM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB philosophy

> John, this post of yours says more clearly than any other post that 
> nothing anybody writes will make a difference to you.  I did not 
> suggest, "I don't need Dr. Jernigan to tell me how to live my life."  
> I suggested that you read a speech where Dr. Jernigan discusses NFB 
> philosophy and why we who are members of the NFB believe as we do.  I 
> am sorry you are so close minded.  I will act accordingly from here 
> out when I see your name on a list email.  My time is to valuable to 
> waste on someone who just wants to fight.
>
>
> William
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfb-talk-bounces+william.ritchhart=sbcglobal.net at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces+william.ritchhart=sbcglobal.net at nfbnet.org] 
> On Behalf Of John Heim
> Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 11:17 AM
> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB philosophy
>
> I don't need Dr. Jernigan to tell me how to live my life.
>
> In fact, this is the crux of the matter. I don't recognize Dr.
> Jernigan's
> or the NFB's right to tell me how to run my life. The NFB has a 
> philosophy that I shouldn't want the world reshaped in my liking. 
> Well, I say you have no right to make that choice for me.
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Wm. Ritchhart" <william.ritchhart at sbcglobal.net>
> To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 8:35 PM
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB philosophy
>
>
>> One of Dr. Jernigan's Banquet speeches from the 1970's deals with this
>> very issue.  I wish I could remember the year.  Someone who does, post
>> it.  When they do, Please read it John.  You will learn something
>> important.
>>
>>
>> William
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nfb-talk-bounces+william.ritchhart=sbcglobal.net at nfbnet.org
>> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces+william.ritchhart=sbcglobal.net at nfbnet.org]
> On
>> Behalf Of Aaron Cannon
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 5:38 PM
>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB philosophy
>>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: RIPEMD160
>>
>> You wrote:
>> "I  propose that the NFB's philosophy is inappropriate for an advocacy
>> group
>> because by opposing accessible money, for example, the NFB is
>> essentially
>> imposing it's philosophy on all blind people. And that is unethical
>> unless
>> it can be justified  on a utilitarian basis. As the nation's leading
>> advocacy group for the blind, the NFB has an obligation to do what is
>> best
>> for blind people instead of trying to fulfill a philosophy that many
>> blind
>> people would not support."
>>
>> I would imagine that there were many black people who did not support
>> Martin
>> Luther King Jr.'s philosophy.  Should he then have not done what he
> did
>> because he did not have consensus?  When the NFB fought for the rights
>> of
>> blind people to give blood, ride planes on there own, get a good
>> education,
>> ETC. there were those who resisted.  were we unethical then?
>>
>> An advocacy group that does not take positions on issues can't
> advocate
>> for
>> anything.  A group that does not advocate, by definition, is not an
>> advocacy
>> group.
>>
>> Aaron
>>
>>
>> - --
>> Skype: cannona
>> MSN/Windows Messenger: cannona at hotmail.com (don't send email to the
>> hotmail
>> address.)
>> - ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "John Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 4:03 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB philosophy
>>
>>
>>> Yep, that was poorly worded by me. I didn't mean to imply that the
> NFB
>>> should behave in a Christian way. Personally, I'm an atheist. But I
>>> consider
>>> the Christian ethic a valid philosophy and what I was trying to say
>> was
>>> that
>>> the NFB's philosophy isn't intuitively obviously correct. I'm not
> sure
>>> I've
>>> made my point clear even now.
>>>
>>> With some things, you can say that they're self-evident.  But the
>> NFB's
>>> philosophy doesn't fall into that category.  I think that at first
>> glance
>>> it
>>> may appear to be a self-evident truth and I think a lot of people
> have
>>> accepted it without giving it any thought.
>>>
>>> I  propose that the NFB's philosophy is inappropriate for an advocacy
>>> group
>>> because by opposing accessible money, for example, the NFB is
>> essentially
>>> imposing it's philosophy on all blind people. And that is unethical
>> unless
>>> it can be justified  on a utilitarian basis. As the nation's leading
>>> advocacy group for the blind, the NFB has an obligation to do what is
>> best
>>> for blind people instead of trying to fulfil a philosophy that many
>> blind
>>> people would not support.
>>>
>>> So again, as a blind person, how does the NFB's philosophy help me?
>> The
>>> accessible money issue is just one example. We can discuss that
>> particular
>>> example but I'm more interested in discussing the philosophy in
>> general. I
>>> am proposing that the NFB's philosophy is inappropriate on a basic
>> ethical
>>> and moral level.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 3:27 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB philosophy
>>>
>>>
>>>> John:
>>>>
>>>> First, not everybody in this country is Christian -- and we do have
>>>> separation of church and state, so such justification alone isn't
>>>> going to make it happen.
>>>>
>>>> I think, in part, our philosophy is grounded in reality.  Whether or
>>>> not it would be a good thing there simply aren't enough financial
> and
>>>> other resources to do everything we could do.  Our society will
> never
>>>> allocate the money to video describe all programs, put audible
>>>> pedestrian signals at every intersection, put all books into braille
>>>> and record them, and make them available in computer form etc.
>>>>
>>>> Society, and government will do some things, but simply can't do
>>>> everything for everybody.  I call their willingness "good will."
> You
>>>> can call it whatever you like, but there is only so much of it, so
> we
>>>> must be judicious about what we ask for.  So in large part, we are
>>>> talking about where we set the bar, the bar of what we ask for.  You
>>>> would set it at a different place then the NFB.
>>>>
>>>> And ... there is also probably stuff here about self reliance, what
>>>> we need help with, what we ask for, what we do our  selves etc.
>>>>
>>>> Dave
>>>>
>>>> At 03:04 PM 4/22/2008, you wrote:
>>>>> >From the wikipedia entry on the NFB:
>>>>>
>>>>>"Federation philosophy holds that blindness should not be used as an
>>>>>excuse
>>>>>for insisting that the world be remade for the convenience of blind
>>>>>people.
>>>>>Sometimes providing reasonable access does demand modifications in
>>>>>infrastructure, but if such changes are not necessary, then blind
>> people
>>>>>should not expect them"
>>>>>
>>>>>Why not?
>>>>>
>>>>>Note that we're not talking about legal principles here. The above
>> stated
>>>>>philosophy seems to contradict the Christian ethic -- that doing
> good
>> for
>>>>>others is a moral obligation.  If doing good for others is a moral
>>>>>obligation, then there can be nothing wrong with asking for
>>>>>accomodations.
>>>>>
>>>>>If you haven't guessed, in my opinion, the above philosophy is dead
>>>>>wrong.
>>>>>We are all in this together. There's nothing wrong with laws
>> prohibiting
>>>>>racial discrimination. There's nothing wrong with laws requiring
>>>>>accessible
>>>>>bathrooms. We, as a society, have every right to make laws that we
>> feel
>>>>>create the best society. If those laws place a burden on some people
>> at
>>>>>the
>>>>>expense of others, well, that's unfortunate but it cannot be
> hhelped.
>>>>>
>>>>>For instance, we, as a group, are better off because the law
> requires
>>>>>that
>>>>>buildings must be made wheelchair accessible. I'm not saying we're
> a
>>>>>richer
>>>>>society. That may be. I'm saying we're a better society. I guess you
>>>>>could
>>>>>say the total amount of happiness in our society has been increased
>> by
>>>>>that
>>>>>law. We're a more just, more open, and happier society as a result
> of
>> the
>>>>>law that required that buildings be wheelchair accessible.
>>>>>It isn't intuitively obvious that the above stated philosophy is
>>>>>beneficial
>>>>>to blind people. If the NFB is going to support a philosophy, they
>> ought
>>>>>to
>>>>>be able to justify it. So what benefits do I, as a blind person, get
>> from
>>>>>the NFB's philosophy?
>>>>>
>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>nfb-talk mailing list
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>>>>>for nfb-talk:
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>--
>>>>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>>Checked by AVG.
>>>>>Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.3/1392 - Release Date:
>>>>>4/22/2008 3:51 PM
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>
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