[nfb-talk] NFB philosophy

Thu Apr 24 03:23:32 CDT 2008

John:

I personally am not opposed to identifiable currency.  In fact I am 
in favor of it  -- it just isn't at the top of my priority 
list.  I  agree that the cost to the Treasury probably isn't 
huge.  Depending on how it is changed, the cost to the private sector 
could be considerably more.  That is where the opposition will come, 
and that is the potential backlash that I am concerned about.

I also acknowledge that there might not be any, or at least not as 
much as I think -- but there could be and I don't want to take the chance.

I have the right to lobby for my point of view, as does everybody 
else.  If I prevail, then things will look more like what I want,  if 
I don't then they will be different.  However, each orf us, and each 
organization has a right, and an obligation to push for its 
views.  You can't disqualify me just because you don't agree, or 
think I am wrong.

Dave

At 04:01 PM 4/23/2008, John Heim wrote:
>I don't know, Dave, I just checked out a Canadian $5 and a $20 and could
>easily distinguish them. The Canadian guy i just talked to didn't even know
>the raised markings were there until I pointed them out. His exact words
>were, "Huh, you learn something every day." Apparently the Canadian system
>wasn't disruptive because my co-worker wasn't even aware that the change had
>been made.
>
>I can't explain what happened with your bills. Maybe they're too old. I just
>don't know. But I am more convinced than ever that it can be done without
>too much expense or inconvenience.
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 3:23 PM
>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB philosophy
>
>
> >I am holding in my hand, at this very instant two Canadian
> > bills.  They feel relatively new to me (stiff.)  I feel no tactile
> > markings on them, so it doesn't seem like they lasted very long.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> > At 10:14 AM 4/23/2008, you wrote:
> >>i've heard the exact opposite from many, many Canadians. Canadian blind
> >>people are quite proud of their accessible currency.
> >>
> >>
> >>----- Original Message -----
> >>From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
> >>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> >>Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 12:36 AM
> >>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB philosophy
> >>
> >>
> >> >I went to Canada last year, and could not feel raised markings on
> >> > most bills.  This solution doesn't hold up to the daily wear and tear
> >> > that bills encounter when in circulation.  So you have to either make
> >> > bills different sizes, or put holes in them.  The first will bring
> >> > out the business crowd in opposition because vending machines, cash
> >> > drawers, counting machines etc become worthless and have to be
> >> > replaced at great expense.  The second solution I suspect would also
> >> > prematurely wear bills, driving up costs.
> >> >
> >> > Dave
> >> >
> >> > At 10:26 PM 4/22/2008, you wrote:
> >> >>Come on, Dave. You can *believe* anything. All opinions are not equal.
> >> >>Those
> >> >>based on facts are better in that they are far more likely to be
> >> >>correct.
> >> >>Yes, I am asking you to suspend your beliefs. That's entirely
> >> >>appropriate.
> >> >>
> >> >>The idea that there'd be a significant backlash is not backed up by any
> >> >>observable facts. Certainly other advocacy groups have had much more
> >> >>success
> >> >>with the opposite approach, namely that of demanding that the world be
> >> >>reshaped to their likes and dislikes.  If there's been a significant
> >> >>backlash against these groups, I'd like to see some evidence. It
> >> >>certainly
> >> >>seems that even things as odious to somepeople as forced integration
> >> >>turned
> >> >>out working miracles. Even the most hard core segregationists like
> >> >>George
> >> >>Wallace eventually saw the light.  Compared to that, accessible money
> >> >>is a
> >> >>piece of cake.
> >> >>
> >> >>Now seriously, when even something like segregation can eventually fall
> >> >>away, why in the world are we worried about whatever minor backlash
> >> >>there'd
> >> >>be with a simple change to money? I mean, I try to keep an open mind
> >> >>but
> >> >>your argument appears absurd.  It seems just impossible to deny that
> >> >>after
> >> >>a
> >> >>few weeks or months, even drastic changes to bills would become just
> >> >>part
> >> >>of
> >> >>the fabric of life in the United States. And most likely, the changes
> >> >>wouldn't even be that disruptive. There hasn't been great upheavals in
> >> >>other
> >> >>countries when they made their money accessible. Canada put raised
> >> >>markings
> >> >>on their bills. I'm pretty sure there were no anti-raised markings
> >> >>riots
> >> >>in
> >> >>Canada.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>----- Original Message -----
> >> >>From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
> >> >>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> >> >>Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 9:54 PM
> >> >>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB philosophy
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> > John:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I think I understand what you are saying -- but I am not sure you
> >> >> > are
> >> >> > hearing me!
> >> >> >
> >> >> > You could be right that there would be no backlash from mandating
> >> >> > accessible currency.  On the other hand, you could be wrong!  We are
> >> >> > not willing to take that chance.  We already know there are people
> >> >> > and groups opposed to it, particularly in the business
> >> >> > community.  Rather they are not opposed to it per se, but opposed to
> >> >> > any change in currency.  This is one of the facts you so love.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > What else is anyone to base his/her actions on but his/her
> >> >> > beliefs.  Yes, there are other factors, but our beliefs drive all of
> >> >> > us.  You want us to suspend our beliefs, consider the facts you
> >> >> > present, which would result in our coming to the conclusions you
> >> >> > did.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > The world doesn't work that way.
> >> >> > Dave
> >> >> >
> >> >> > At 09:18 PM 4/22/2008, you wrote:
> >> >> >>Dave,
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>I certainly respect your opinions on this issue. I acknowledge that
> >> >> >>it's
> >> >> >>possible that requiring a change in money will somehow be
> >> >> >>detrimental
> >> >> >>but
> >> >> >>why in the world would you believe that without evidence? You have
> >> >> >>to
> >> >> >>operate based on available facts. And I just don't see any that
> >> >> >>would
> >> >> >>tend
> >> >> >>to indicate that there would be a problem if the Treasury Department
> >> >> >>had
> >> >> >>to
> >> >> >>change the bills. I'm not sure if I can make my point clear. I am
> >> >> >>trying
> >> >> >>to
> >> >> >>make a point not directly about accessible money but rather about
> >> >> >>decision
> >> >> >>making.  How can the NFB justify taking a position that is based
> >> >> >>primarily
> >> >> >>on a rather nebulous fear of a backlash?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>I'd rather not make this just about accessible money. That happens
> >> >> >>to
> >> >> >>be
> >> >> >>the
> >> >> >>prime example.  But it's not the only one. As I said in another
> >> >> >>message,
> >> >> >>the
> >> >> >>DVS issue may be a better example of my point although, I will admit
> >> >> >>the
> >> >> >>issue itself is less clear.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>The decision by the NFB to work against requiring TV networks to
> >> >> >>provide
> >> >> >>DVS
> >> >> >>was clearly a case of the NFB pushing it's philosophy upon the vast
> >> >> >>majority
> >> >> >>of blind people who are not members and who would not approve of the
> >> >> >>NFB's
> >> >> >>philosophy.  Again, it would be one thing if the NFB could fairly
> >> >> >>argue
> >> >> >>that
> >> >> >>they had to oppose the DVS regulation because  it would have hurt
> >> >> >>blind
> >> >> >>people in the long run. And I know there was some of that but come
> >> >> >>on,
> >> >> >>do
> >> >> >>you really think DBS would have made it harder for blind people to
> >> >> >>find
> >> >> >>jobs? No, the NFB opposed that change on entirely philosophical
> >> >> >>grounds.
> >> >> >>And
> >> >> >>I don't believe most blind people share the NFB's philosophy.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>I happen to agree that requiring DBS is frivolous. But even blind
> >> >> >>people
> >> >> >>have a right to demand frivolous things. Then it's up to the courts
> >> >> >>to
> >> >> >>decide whether their demands have merit. If you don't like that
> >> >> >>system,
> >> >> >>you
> >> >> >>should write to your congressman and have the law changed. But the
> >> >> >>NFB
> >> >> >>shouldn't have  stood in the way. That was unethical. The NFB used
> >> >> >>it's
> >> >> >>position as the leading advocacy  group for the blind to impose it's
> >> >> >>political opinions on all blind people. And that's just wrong.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>s
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>----- Original Message -----
> >> >> >>From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
> >> >> >>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> >> >> >>Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 8:09 PM
> >> >> >>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB philosophy
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> > John:
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > We have never said that it wouldn't be a good thing to have
> >> >> >> > identifiable money.  What is being debated is how it might come
> >> >> >> > about
> >> >> >> > and what we would or wouldn't do to bring it about.  In past
> >> >> >> > resolutions we have clearly stated that we support identifiable
> >> >> >> > money, just that it should happen as a redesign of money, not out
> >> >> >> > of
> >> >> >> > an edict on its own.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > I guess it comes back to my goodwill article.  There are elements
> >> >> >> > of
> >> >> >> > our society that would oppose changing money in any way that
> >> >> >> > would
> >> >> >> > invalidate their money-handling infrastructure, such as money
> >> >> >> > counting machines, cash drawers etc.  Since many of these people
> >> >> >> > are  employers, if we force them to change, just for blind
> >> >> >> > people,
> >> >> >> > then that will hurt us overall.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > While not ideal, most of us have figured out ways to handle
> >> >> >> > money.  So, while such a change as identifiable money would be
> >> >> >> > good,
> >> >> >> > the price of having it solely blamed on blind persons may be to
> >> >> >> > high
> >> >> >> > a price to pay.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Dave
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > At 07:08 PM 4/22/2008, you wrote:
> >> >> >> >>I never said that making money accessible would lower the
> >> >> >> >>unemployment
> >> >> >> >>rate.
> >> >> >> >>And of course I can prove that people in countries with
> >> >> >> >>accessible
> >> >> >> >>money
> >> >> >> >>are
> >> >> >> >>better off -- they can tell their bils apart!  The point is that
> >> >> >> >>the
> >> >> >> >>NFB's
> >> >> >> >>position on this issue is not based on facts. Mine is based on  a
> >> >> >> >>fact --
> >> >> >> >>the fact is that if the government made bills so that blind
> >> >> >> >>people
> >> >> >> >>could
> >> >> >> >>tell them apart, then blind people could tell them apart!
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>If the NFB is going to argue that it would be bad for me to be
> >> >> >> >>able
> >> >> >> >>to
> >> >> >> >>tell
> >> >> >> >>a $1 from a $20, then they are obligated to prove it. I don't
> >> >> >> >>know
> >> >> >> >>how
> >> >> >> >>this
> >> >> >> >>could be more obvious. If the NFB is going to oppose a change
> >> >> >> >>that
> >> >> >> >>on
> >> >> >> >>the
> >> >> >> >>face of it would benefit blind people, they should have actual
> >> >> >> >>facts
> >> >> >> >>to
> >> >> >> >>support their point of view.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>----- Original Message -----
> >> >> >> >>From: "RyanO" <ryano218 at comcast.net>
> >> >> >> >>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> >> >> >> >>Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 6:26 PM
> >> >> >> >>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB philosophy
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> > John, I would ask you this question. The U.S. is the only
> >> >> >> >> > country
> >> >> >> >> > that
> >> >> >> >> > doesn't have accessible currency. Can you give me the
> >> >> >> >> > unemployment
> >> >> >> >> > figures
> >> >> >> >> > for blind people in countries that do have it? Can you
> >> >> >> >> > demonstrate
> >> >> >> >> > that
> >> >> >> >> > blind people in those countries are better off with accessible
> >> >> >> >> > money
> >> >> >> >> > than
> >> >> >> >> > without it?
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> > RyanO
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> > "You can look the other way once and it's no big deal, except
> >> >> >> >> > it
> >> >> >> >> > makes
> >> >> >> >> > it
> >> >> >> >> > easier for you to compromise.  Pretty soon, that's all you're
> >> >> >> >> > doing
> >> >> >> >> > is
> >> >> >> >> > compromising because that's how you think things are done."
> >> >> >> >> > Jack Bauer - "24"
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> >> >> >> > nfb-talk mailing list
> >> >> >> >> > nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
> >> >> >> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk
> >> >> >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> >> >> >> >> > info
> >> >> >> >> > for
> >> >> >> >> > nfb-talk:
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-talk/jheim%40math.wisc.edu
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________
> >> >> >> >>nfb-talk mailing list
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> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>--
> >> >> >> >>No virus found in this incoming message.
> >> >> >> >>Checked by AVG.
> >> >> >> >>Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.3/1392 - Release Date:
> >> >> >> >>4/22/2008 3:51 PM
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> >> >> > nfb-talk mailing list
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> >> >> >> > nfb-talk:
> >> >> >> > 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-talk/jheim%40math.wisc.edu
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>_______________________________________________
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> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>--
> >> >> >>No virus found in this incoming message.
> >> >> >>Checked by AVG.
> >> >> >>Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.3/1392 - Release Date:
> >> >> >>4/22/2008 3:51 PM
> >> >> >
> >> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> >> > nfb-talk mailing list
> >> >> > nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
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> >> >> > for
> >> >> > nfb-talk:
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> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>_______________________________________________
> >> >>nfb-talk mailing list
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> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>--
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> >> >>Checked by AVG.
> >> >>Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.3/1392 - Release Date:
> >> >>4/22/2008 3:51 PM
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > nfb-talk mailing list
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> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk
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> >> > nfb-talk:
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> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>nfb-talk mailing list
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> >
> > David Andrews and white cane Harry.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> >
> >
>
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>4/23/2008 7:16 PM