[nfb-talk] Adult Braille readers are Leaders Contest
cheryl echevarria
cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com
Wed Oct 24 15:48:26 CDT 2007
I think that would be great to have especially give us all incentives to read braille and not use the computer or electronic equipment, myself I am learning braille since I lost my vision 5 years ago, there should be different levels as well for the adult learners and for the experienced readers.
I would be interested in voting for something like this.
Cheryl Echevarria
NFB of NY/Long Island Chapter
skype: angeldn38
windows live messenger: cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com<mailto:cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com>
----- Original Message -----
From: nfb-talk-request at nfbnet.org<mailto:nfb-talk-request at nfbnet.org>
To: nfb-talk at nfbnet.org<mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 10:06 AM
Subject: nfb-talk Digest, Vol 17, Issue 43
Send nfb-talk mailing list submissions to
nfb-talk at nfbnet.org<mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk>
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
nfb-talk-request at nfbnet.org<mailto:nfb-talk-request at nfbnet.org>
You can reach the person managing the list at
nfb-talk-owner at nfbnet.org<mailto:nfb-talk-owner at nfbnet.org>
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of nfb-talk digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: do we focus too much on national conventions? (Mike Freeman)
2. Adult Braille readers are Leaders Contest (Eric Calhoun)
3. Re: Fw: [Quietcars] urgent problem, distant research
(Wm. Ritchhart)
4. Re: do we focus too much on national conventions? (C Applegate)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 22:10:37 -0700
From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com<mailto:k7uij at panix.com>>
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] do we focus too much on national conventions?
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org<mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>>
Message-ID: <001b01c815fc$37beeb60$cb5f1418 at owner96190708e<mailto:001b01c815fc$37beeb60$cb5f1418 at owner96190708e>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Ray:
I don't disagree with your answers below. I suspect, however, that Chris
was chafing under the restriction that without attending conventions, he
is unable to directly vote on resolutions and other "sense of the
convention" type items. While on the surface, such complaints are
understandable, they fail to take into account the fact that there is no
other really practical method of implementing a system to gauge the will
of the membership. Plebecites? Not practical. Delegate assemblies?
That's what the rollcall votes at convention are all about.
Moreover, if one were to put in place some sort of extended process for
considering resolutions, the reality is that a small elite, i.e., the
Board of Directors, would have undue influence on such deliberations. So
while vesting supreme authority within the Federation to the convention
may leave some folks feeling left out, it is, like Churchill's
definition of democracy, the least worst of the alternatives.
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: Ray Foret Jr
To: NFB Talk Mailing List
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 9:53 PM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] do we focus too much on national conventions?
Joe, in your message, you say, in part,
"As for communication outside of convention, I think the blame is
mutual.
Until older members learn to embrace the full benefits of technology,
and
until younger members learn not to depend on technology so much, we
will not
fill the middle-age gap that exists at all levels of the movement.
Sound
contradictory? Think on it."
No, it does not sound contradictory at all; rather, it's perfectly
true.
But, why is it true. It's true partly because the younger generation
has
grown up spoiled and knowing nothing but the technology; meanwhile,
the
older generation had to learn to do things the manual or harder way.
What
ever will the younger generation do when their batteries die out and
there
aint no chargers? fair question don't y'all think?
As to attending the conventions, While I feel that Ken's answer
was very
condescending and not helpful at all, let me see what I can do to help
answer the question.
As others have said before me, we attend the convention for many
reasons; but, if you want the real bottom line, the convention is the
national policy determiner for the federation. I do not feel left out
just
because I never have enough money to attend one; though. I, for one,
believe members do in fact have a voice even if they can't attend
convention. It's called letter writing, phone calling or e-mailing.
Sometimes, we are asked to use that voice; witness our rescue of the
talking
book program earlier this year (which I believe we are still not quite
through rescuing just yet and may be called upon yet again to help).
Indeed, It is precisely because the NFB knows and believes in the
voices of
its blind members, (even the ones who cannot attend convention) that
it is
so strong. From time to time, it asks us to use that voice loud and
clear;
as it may well do regarding the quiet car topic. How, therefore, can
anyone
assert that we ordinary financially poor blind have no voice because
we
cannot physically attend the convention? I ask, not to be sarcastic;
but
rather, to try to stimulate your thinking. As for help for the deaf,
the
NFB does indeed provide hearing aid and now even Spanish translation
for
those who need it. Another individual complained he cannot cross
streets
because of his inability to determine perpendicular traffic from
parallel
traffic. Let him get help if he needs it. Perhaps it's a good time
to say
this. The NFB IS, NOT, opposed to blind people getting help if it is
needed. Many in the ACB believe and say that the NFB is opposed to
blind
people getting any kind of help at all. They refer to us as "super
blinks"
and so forth. Well, for that matter, they refer to any truly
independent
blind person as a "super blink" what a slap in the face that is; both
to
then and to us.
As for shortening the national convention, I fail to see how this can
ever
be done. Sooner or later, we'll just have to face the reality that
convention lasts for two weeks now and officially make it so. Then,
we
might be able to offer special discounts to those able to attend both
weeks
of the convention. Slightly lesser discounts to those attending only
the
first week, (the board meetings and such) or the second week, (the
policy
and decisions week). Thoughts?
Sincerely yours,
The Constantly Barefooted,
Ray
Home phone and fax:
(985)853-0139
E-mail:
rforetjratbellsouthdotnet
Skype Name:
barefootedray
Blog:
www.raysworld.blogs.com<http://www.raysworld.blogs.com/>
Podcast .rss Feed:
http://feeds.feedburner.com/worldofray<http://feeds.feedburner.com/worldofray>
God bless President George W. Bush!
God bless our troops!
and God bless America
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Orozco" <jsorozco at gmail.com<mailto:jsorozco at gmail.com>>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org<mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>>
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 11:25 PM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] do we focus too much on national conventions?
Chris,
Normally I hate the parallel people draw between blindness consumer
groups
and political parties. Yet when it comes to conventions I believe the
comparison is a valid one. On a business level the NFB can use the
opportunity to sell its products and services while advancing its
philosophical and legislative agenda, all of this while simultaneously
generating the most fundraising than at any other point in the year.
On a
recruitment level the organization can reach out through its
divisions,
committees and social gatherings to lock in and hold on to newcomers
in
hopes that they might return home and encourage others to jump in.
Where
the parallel falls short is when you consider the personal level.
Some
people really are turned around by a national convention. Some people
really do use convention as their personal vacation. Still others may
only
truly venture out of their comfort zone by attending a convention, and
for
that reason alone national conventions can be our single most
important
feature. At times I think the best service we can do for a person who
has
never really known independence is to put them in an environment of
swinging
canes, passing dogs and total chaos at the elevators to really let
them see
how independent they could be.
As for communication outside of convention, I think the blame is
mutual.
Until older members learn to embrace the full benefits of technology,
and
until younger members learn not to depend on technology so much, we
will not
fill the middle-age gap that exists at all levels of the movement.
Sound
contradictory? Think on it.
Joe Orozco
"I came, I saw, I conquered."--Julius Caesar
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Westbrook" <westbc at clw19.com<mailto:westbc at clw19.com>>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org<mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>>
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 9:09 PM
Subject: [nfb-talk] do we focus too much on national conventions?
I read a lot of literature in the NFB about how conventions change
people's
lives, and I'm sure to some extent that is true, but I wonder if we
focus
too much on the convention as a policy setter for the organization?
I'm
sure there are lots of people who cannot for whatever reason make the
national convention who would like to contribute their opinions on
current
and/or future policy, practices, etc. I was not able to attend this
year
because I only got one week of vacation for my job, and I don't see
myself
attending anytime soon since the summer is a busy time for our
company. I
worry that the NFB is ruling out contributions from highly intelligent
blind
people who simply have other commitments during that time period. I
think
we also must remember that convention isn't a fun experience for
everyone.
I went with my mother a few years ago, and if I had gone alone I
honestly
think convention would have been hell for me. The huge dinner crowds
meant
I couldn't eat in the hotel because with my hearing loss the noise was
just
too overwhelming. If I had to worry about finding a restaurant
outside the
hotel (I can't cross streets independently due to my inability to
distinguish parallel from perpendicular traffic) and worry about the
cost of
eating out every night that would have definitely put a damper on my
convention experience. One thing I like that ACB does is provide
support
personnel for people who have hearing impairments in addition to
blindness
to help with situations like that, but that's a topic for a whole
other
message. The exhibit hall was also overwhelming. The various
speeches were
nice, but were they worth traveling all across the country for? I
suppose
it depends on your perspective. I'm not advocating for the
elimination of a
national convention, though I think this will become a greater issue
as
prices for hotels and other things keep going up, but I'm just curious
how a
person who can't or won't go to convention gets involved? There is no
chapter in my area, so perhaps my view of NFB is a bit warped by this
fact.
and yes I realize that a large part of being a federationist is just
getting
out into the community, etc., which I'm doing, but that still doesn't
really
change what I said above. I'm interested in your thoughts.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> nfb-talk mailing list
> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org<mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk>
>
_______________________________________________
nfb-talk mailing list
nfb-talk at nfbnet.org<mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk>
_______________________________________________
nfb-talk mailing list
nfb-talk at nfbnet.org<mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk>
-------------- next part --------------
Ray:
?
I don't disagree with your answers below. I suspect, however, that Chris was chafing under the restriction that without attending conventions, he is unable to directly vote on resolutions and other "sense of the convention" type items. While on the surface, such complaints are understandable, they fail to take into account the fact that there is no other really practical method of implementing a system to gauge the will of the membership. Plebecites? Not practical. Delegate assemblies? That's what the rollcall votes at convention are all about.
?
Moreover, if one were to put in place some sort of extended process for considering resolutions, the reality is that a small elite, i.e., the Board of Directors, would have undue influence on such deliberations. So while vesting supreme authority within the Federation to the convention may leave some folks feeling left out, it is, like Churchill's definition of democracy, the least worst of the alternatives.
?
Mike
?
----- Original Message -----
From:
mailto:rforetjr at bellsouth.net<mailto:rforetjr at bellsouth.net> Ray Foret Jr
To:
mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org<mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org> NFB Talk Mailing List
Sent:
Tuesday, October 23, 2007 9:53 PM
Subject:
Re: [nfb-talk] do we focus too much on national conventions?
Joe, in your message, you say, in part,
"As for communication outside of convention, I think the blame is mutual.
Until older members learn to embrace the full benefits of technology, and
until younger members learn not to depend on technology so much, we will not
fill the middle-age gap that exists at all levels of the movement.? Sound
contradictory?? Think on it."
No, it does not sound contradictory at all; rather, it's perfectly true.
But, why is it true.? It's true partly because the younger generation has
grown up spoiled and knowing nothing but the technology; meanwhile, the
older generation had to learn to do things the manual or harder way.? What
ever will the younger generation do when their batteries die out and there
aint no chargers?? fair question don't y'all think?
??? As to attending the conventions, While I feel that Ken's answer was very
condescending and not helpful at all, let me see what I can do to help
answer the question.
??? As others have said before me, we attend the convention for many
reasons; but, if you want the real bottom line, the convention is the
national policy determiner for the federation.? I do not feel left out just
because I never have enough money to attend one; though.? I, for one,
believe members do in fact have a voice even if they can't attend
convention.? It's called letter writing, phone calling or e-mailing.
Sometimes, we are asked to use that voice; witness our rescue of the talking
book program earlier this year (which I believe we are still not quite
through rescuing just yet and may be called upon yet again to help).
Indeed, It is precisely because the NFB knows and believes in the voices of
its blind members, (even the ones who cannot attend convention) that it is
so strong.? From time to time, it asks us to use that voice loud and clear;
as it may well do regarding the quiet car topic.? How, therefore, can anyone
assert that we ordinary financially poor blind have no voice because we
cannot physically attend the convention?? I ask, not to be sarcastic; but
rather, to try to stimulate your thinking.? As for help for the deaf, the
NFB does indeed provide hearing aid and now even Spanish translation for
those who need it.? Another individual complained he cannot cross streets
because of his inability to determine perpendicular traffic from parallel
traffic.? Let him get help if he needs it.? Perhaps it's a good time to say
this.? The NFB IS, NOT, opposed to blind people getting help if it is
needed.? Many in the ACB believe and say that the NFB is opposed to blind
people getting any kind of help at all.? They refer to us as "super blinks"
and so forth.? Well, for that matter, they refer to any truly independent
blind person as a "super blink" what a slap in the face that is; both to
then and to us.
As for shortening the national convention, I fail to see how this can ever
be done.? Sooner or later, we'll just have to face the reality that
convention lasts for two weeks now and officially make it so.? Then, we
might be able to offer special discounts to those able to attend both weeks
of the convention.? Slightly lesser discounts to those attending only the
first week, (the board meetings and such) or the second week, (the policy
and decisions week).? Thoughts?
Sincerely yours,
The Constantly Barefooted,
Ray
Home phone and fax:
(985)853-0139
E-mail:
rforetjratbellsouthdotnet
Skype Name:
barefootedray
Blog:
http://www.raysworld.blogs.com<http://www.raysworld.blogs.com/> www.raysworld.blogs.com<http://www.raysworld.blogs.com/>
Podcast .rss Feed:
http://feeds.feedburner.com/worldofray<http://feeds.feedburner.com/worldofray> http://feeds.feedburner.com/worldofray<http://feeds.feedburner.com/worldofray>
God bless President George W. Bush!
God bless our troops!
and God bless America
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Orozco" < mailto:jsorozco at gmail.com<mailto:jsorozco at gmail.com> jsorozco at gmail.com<mailto:jsorozco at gmail.com>
>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" < mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org<mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org<mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 11:25 PM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] do we focus too much on national conventions?
Chris,
Normally I hate the parallel people draw between blindness consumer groups
and political parties.? Yet when it comes to conventions I believe the
comparison is a valid one.? On a business level the NFB can use the
opportunity to sell its products and services while advancing its
philosophical and legislative agenda, all of this while simultaneously
generating the most fundraising than at any other point in the year.? On a
recruitment level the organization can reach out through its divisions,
committees and social gatherings to lock in and hold on to newcomers in
hopes that they might return home and encourage others to jump in.? Where
the parallel falls short is when you consider the personal level.? Some
people really are turned around by a national convention.? Some people
really do use convention as their personal vacation.? Still others may only
truly venture out of their comfort zone by attending a convention, and for
that reason alone national conventions can be our single most important
feature.? At times I think the best service we can do for a person who has
never really known independence is to put them in an environment of swinging
canes, passing dogs and total chaos at the elevators to really let them see
how independent they could be.
As for communication outside of convention, I think the blame is mutual.
Until older members learn to embrace the full benefits of technology, and
until younger members learn not to depend on technology so much, we will not
fill the middle-age gap that exists at all levels of the movement.? Sound
contradictory?? Think on it.
Joe Orozco
"I came, I saw, I conquered."--Julius Caesar
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Westbrook" < mailto:westbc at clw19.com<mailto:westbc at clw19.com> westbc at clw19.com<mailto:westbc at clw19.com>
>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" < mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org<mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org<mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 9:09 PM
Subject: [nfb-talk] do we focus too much on national conventions?
I read a lot of literature in the NFB about how conventions change people's
lives, and I'm sure to some extent that is true, but I wonder if we focus
too much on the convention as a policy setter for the organization?? I'm
sure there are lots of people who cannot for whatever reason make the
national convention who would like to contribute their opinions on current
and/or future policy, practices, etc.? I was not able to attend this year
because I only got one week of vacation for my job, and I don't see myself
attending anytime soon since the summer is a busy time for our company.? I
worry that the NFB is ruling out contributions from highly intelligent blind
people who simply have other commitments during that time period.? I think
we also must remember that convention isn't a fun experience for everyone.
I went with my mother a few years ago, and if I had gone alone I honestly
think convention would have been hell for me.? The huge dinner crowds meant
I couldn't eat in the hotel because with my hearing loss the noise was just
too overwhelming.? If I had to worry about finding a restaurant outside the
hotel (I can't cross streets independently due to my inability to
distinguish parallel from perpendicular traffic) and worry about the cost of
eating out every night that would have definitely put a damper on my
convention experience.? One thing I like that ACB does is provide support
personnel for people who have hearing impairments in addition to blindness
to help with situations like that, but that's a topic for a whole other
message.? The exhibit hall was also overwhelming.? The various speeches were
nice, but were they worth traveling all across the country for?? I suppose
it depends on your perspective.? I'm not advocating for the elimination of a
national convention, though I think this will become a greater issue as
prices for hotels and other things keep going up, but I'm just curious how a
person who can't or won't go to convention gets involved?? There is no
chapter in my area, so perhaps my view of NFB is a bit warped by this fact.
and yes I realize that a large part of being a federationist is just getting
out into the community, etc., which I'm doing, but that still doesn't really
change what I said above.? I'm interested in your thoughts.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> nfb-talk mailing list
> mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org<mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org<mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk>
>
_______________________________________________
nfb-talk mailing list
mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org<mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org<mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk>
_______________________________________________
nfb-talk mailing list
mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org<mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org<mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk>
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 02:35:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: Eric Calhoun <eric at pmpmail.com<mailto:eric at pmpmail.com>>
Subject: [nfb-talk] Adult Braille readers are Leaders Contest
To: nfb-talk at nfbnet.org<mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <20071024063513.0AC5F5F2C2 at node21.smtp.com<mailto:20071024063513.0AC5F5F2C2 at node21.smtp.com>>
I'd like to address a couple of people in this message, if you please:
Chris, you have a valid point, when you associate national Conventions
with crowd noise' and for crossing streets with parallel, versus
perpendicular traffic. However, I have a couple of suggestions.
Number 1. _If you _know, beyond the shadow of a doubt, you have problems
crossing streets using (green,) parallel, and (red), perpendicular, make
certain you find someone who can help you, and _stay _there, until someone
can help you. This may take a few minutes.
Number 2. Use parratransit. That means: get with your local company
that has parratransit, and tell them what you're doing; and ask them to
_fax) your application, for a 21-day pass. While at the Convention,
utilize their services. (Don't wait till the same day to go out; you may
not get a ride. Also, plan ahead.)
Ray:
I agree with you. Federationists, who cannot afford to go to the
National Convention have as just as much of a voice, as those who can
attend. All one must do is get an idea by e-mailing their State President,
and the nfb Board.
The younger generation of the Federation should not have to attend
National Conventions, via scholarship; give them other incentives. Here in
California, (and I feel it's unpopular with a few people), it was decided
that if people read one or more Kernel Books, and reported upon what
they've read at the next meeting, that person may win a free trip to the
next National Convention. I have a better idea: If all of us e-mail the
National Office to start an adult "Braille Readers Are Leaders" similar to
the children's, or juvenile, contest, and everybody agrees to this contest,
the person(s) who reads the highest number of pages should win a free trip
to the next National Convention. Thoughts please?
Eric
-
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 06:02:09 -0400
From: "Wm. Ritchhart" <william.ritchhart at sbcglobal.net<mailto:william.ritchhart at sbcglobal.net>>
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Fw: [Quietcars] urgent problem, distant
research
To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org<mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>>
Message-ID: <000001c81624$f10b6a30$4001a8c0 at RITCHHART<mailto:000001c81624$f10b6a30$4001a8c0 at RITCHHART>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I believe, that actually the first person hit and killed by a quiet car
was a sighted person who was hit by a driver who was multi-tasking.
This is a serious problem for all pedestrians, not just blind.
William
-----Original Message-----
From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of RyanO
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 8:09 AM
To: NFB Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Fw: [Quietcars] urgent problem, distant research
I wasn't making a point. I was merely asking a reasonable question. If
we're
going to maintain this debate, some hard numbers wouldn't hurt.
RyanO
_______________________________________________
nfb-talk mailing list
nfb-talk at nfbnet.org<mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk>
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 09:23:32 -0500
From: "C Applegate" <marshapple at austin.rr.com<mailto:marshapple at austin.rr.com>>
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] do we focus too much on national conventions?
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org<mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>>
Message-ID: <007901c81649$74c43ae0$0202a8c0 at 2UB532098T<mailto:007901c81649$74c43ae0$0202a8c0 at 2UB532098T>>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
I think that the convention is an indispensable part of our movement. There
is however one area that I think could help out with the length of it and
allow more people to have a say in the movement.
That is to move the resolutions debate to one of the first days. It seems
to me that by the time we get to them a large majority of the people have
left. Thus leaving the decision making to a few. There may be reasons for
its current time slot in the convention, but I can not see the benefit of
leaving it to the last. If this question has been hashed out before, then
someone give me the condensed version please.
Clint
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com<mailto:k7uij at panix.com>>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org<mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>>
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 12:10 AM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] do we focus too much on national conventions?
> Ray:
>
> I don't disagree with your answers below. I suspect, however, that Chris
> was chafing under the restriction that without attending conventions, he
> is unable to directly vote on resolutions and other "sense of the
> convention" type items. While on the surface, such complaints are
> understandable, they fail to take into account the fact that there is no
> other really practical method of implementing a system to gauge the will
> of the membership. Plebecites? Not practical. Delegate assemblies?
> That's what the rollcall votes at convention are all about.
>
> Moreover, if one were to put in place some sort of extended process for
> considering resolutions, the reality is that a small elite, i.e., the
> Board of Directors, would have undue influence on such deliberations. So
> while vesting supreme authority within the Federation to the convention
> may leave some folks feeling left out, it is, like Churchill's
> definition of democracy, the least worst of the alternatives.
>
> Mike
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ray Foret Jr
> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
> Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 9:53 PM
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] do we focus too much on national conventions?
>
>
> Joe, in your message, you say, in part,
> "As for communication outside of convention, I think the blame is
> mutual.
> Until older members learn to embrace the full benefits of technology,
> and
> until younger members learn not to depend on technology so much, we
> will not
> fill the middle-age gap that exists at all levels of the movement.
> Sound
> contradictory? Think on it."
> No, it does not sound contradictory at all; rather, it's perfectly
> true.
> But, why is it true. It's true partly because the younger generation
> has
> grown up spoiled and knowing nothing but the technology; meanwhile,
> the
> older generation had to learn to do things the manual or harder way.
> What
> ever will the younger generation do when their batteries die out and
> there
> aint no chargers? fair question don't y'all think?
>
> As to attending the conventions, While I feel that Ken's answer
> was very
> condescending and not helpful at all, let me see what I can do to help
> answer the question.
>
> As others have said before me, we attend the convention for many
> reasons; but, if you want the real bottom line, the convention is the
> national policy determiner for the federation. I do not feel left out
> just
> because I never have enough money to attend one; though. I, for one,
> believe members do in fact have a voice even if they can't attend
> convention. It's called letter writing, phone calling or e-mailing.
> Sometimes, we are asked to use that voice; witness our rescue of the
> talking
> book program earlier this year (which I believe we are still not quite
> through rescuing just yet and may be called upon yet again to help).
> Indeed, It is precisely because the NFB knows and believes in the
> voices of
> its blind members, (even the ones who cannot attend convention) that
> it is
> so strong. From time to time, it asks us to use that voice loud and
> clear;
> as it may well do regarding the quiet car topic. How, therefore, can
> anyone
> assert that we ordinary financially poor blind have no voice because
> we
> cannot physically attend the convention? I ask, not to be sarcastic;
> but
> rather, to try to stimulate your thinking. As for help for the deaf,
> the
> NFB does indeed provide hearing aid and now even Spanish translation
> for
> those who need it. Another individual complained he cannot cross
> streets
> because of his inability to determine perpendicular traffic from
> parallel
> traffic. Let him get help if he needs it. Perhaps it's a good time
> to say
> this. The NFB IS, NOT, opposed to blind people getting help if it is
> needed. Many in the ACB believe and say that the NFB is opposed to
> blind
> people getting any kind of help at all. They refer to us as "super
> blinks"
> and so forth. Well, for that matter, they refer to any truly
> independent
> blind person as a "super blink" what a slap in the face that is; both
> to
> then and to us.
> As for shortening the national convention, I fail to see how this can
> ever
> be done. Sooner or later, we'll just have to face the reality that
> convention lasts for two weeks now and officially make it so. Then,
> we
> might be able to offer special discounts to those able to attend both
> weeks
> of the convention. Slightly lesser discounts to those attending only
> the
> first week, (the board meetings and such) or the second week, (the
> policy
> and decisions week). Thoughts?
>
> Sincerely yours,
> The Constantly Barefooted,
> Ray
> Home phone and fax:
> (985)853-0139
> E-mail:
> rforetjratbellsouthdotnet
> Skype Name:
> barefootedray
> Blog:
> www.raysworld.blogs.com<http://www.raysworld.blogs.com/>
> Podcast .rss Feed:
> http://feeds.feedburner.com/worldofray<http://feeds.feedburner.com/worldofray>
>
> God bless President George W. Bush!
> God bless our troops!
> and God bless America
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joe Orozco" <jsorozco at gmail.com<mailto:jsorozco at gmail.com>>
> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org<mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 11:25 PM
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] do we focus too much on national conventions?
>
>
> Chris,
>
> Normally I hate the parallel people draw between blindness consumer
> groups
> and political parties. Yet when it comes to conventions I believe the
> comparison is a valid one. On a business level the NFB can use the
> opportunity to sell its products and services while advancing its
> philosophical and legislative agenda, all of this while simultaneously
> generating the most fundraising than at any other point in the year.
> On a
> recruitment level the organization can reach out through its
> divisions,
> committees and social gatherings to lock in and hold on to newcomers
> in
> hopes that they might return home and encourage others to jump in.
> Where
> the parallel falls short is when you consider the personal level.
> Some
> people really are turned around by a national convention. Some people
> really do use convention as their personal vacation. Still others may
> only
> truly venture out of their comfort zone by attending a convention, and
> for
> that reason alone national conventions can be our single most
> important
> feature. At times I think the best service we can do for a person who
> has
> never really known independence is to put them in an environment of
> swinging
> canes, passing dogs and total chaos at the elevators to really let
> them see
> how independent they could be.
>
> As for communication outside of convention, I think the blame is
> mutual.
> Until older members learn to embrace the full benefits of technology,
> and
> until younger members learn not to depend on technology so much, we
> will not
> fill the middle-age gap that exists at all levels of the movement.
> Sound
> contradictory? Think on it.
>
> Joe Orozco
>
> "I came, I saw, I conquered."--Julius Caesar
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chris Westbrook" <westbc at clw19.com<mailto:westbc at clw19.com>>
> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org<mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 9:09 PM
> Subject: [nfb-talk] do we focus too much on national conventions?
>
>
> I read a lot of literature in the NFB about how conventions change
> people's
> lives, and I'm sure to some extent that is true, but I wonder if we
> focus
> too much on the convention as a policy setter for the organization?
> I'm
> sure there are lots of people who cannot for whatever reason make the
> national convention who would like to contribute their opinions on
> current
> and/or future policy, practices, etc. I was not able to attend this
> year
> because I only got one week of vacation for my job, and I don't see
> myself
> attending anytime soon since the summer is a busy time for our
> company. I
> worry that the NFB is ruling out contributions from highly intelligent
> blind
> people who simply have other commitments during that time period. I
> think
> we also must remember that convention isn't a fun experience for
> everyone.
> I went with my mother a few years ago, and if I had gone alone I
> honestly
> think convention would have been hell for me. The huge dinner crowds
> meant
> I couldn't eat in the hotel because with my hearing loss the noise was
> just
> too overwhelming. If I had to worry about finding a restaurant
> outside the
> hotel (I can't cross streets independently due to my inability to
> distinguish parallel from perpendicular traffic) and worry about the
> cost of
> eating out every night that would have definitely put a damper on my
> convention experience. One thing I like that ACB does is provide
> support
> personnel for people who have hearing impairments in addition to
> blindness
> to help with situations like that, but that's a topic for a whole
> other
> message. The exhibit hall was also overwhelming. The various
> speeches were
> nice, but were they worth traveling all across the country for? I
> suppose
> it depends on your perspective. I'm not advocating for the
> elimination of a
> national convention, though I think this will become a greater issue
> as
> prices for hotels and other things keep going up, but I'm just curious
> how a
> person who can't or won't go to convention gets involved? There is no
> chapter in my area, so perhaps my view of NFB is a bit warped by this
> fact.
> and yes I realize that a large part of being a federationist is just
> getting
> out into the community, etc., which I'm doing, but that still doesn't
> really
> change what I said above. I'm interested in your thoughts.
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> > _______________________________________________
> > nfb-talk mailing list
> > nfb-talk at nfbnet.org<mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk>
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> nfb-talk mailing list
> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org<mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nfb-talk mailing list
> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org<mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> nfb-talk mailing list
> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org<mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk>
>
------------------------------
_______________________________________________
nfb-talk mailing list
nfb-talk at nfbnet.org<mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk>
End of nfb-talk Digest, Vol 17, Issue 43
****************************************
-------------- next part --------------
I think that would be great to have especially give us all incentives to read braille and not use the computer or electronic equipment, myself I am learning braille since I lost my vision 5 years ago, there should be different levels as well for the adult learners and for the experienced readers.
I would be interested in voting for something like this.
Cheryl Echevarria
NFB of NY/Long Island Chapter
skype: angeldn38
windows live messenger: mailto:cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com
----- Original Message -----
From:
mailto:nfb-talk-request at nfbnet.org nfb-talk-request at nfbnet.org
To:
mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
Sent:
Wednesday, October 24, 2007 10:06 AM
Subject:
nfb-talk Digest, Vol 17, Issue 43
Send nfb-talk mailing list submissions to
mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
mailto:nfb-talk-request at nfbnet.org nfb-talk-request at nfbnet.org
You can reach the person managing the list at
mailto:nfb-talk-owner at nfbnet.org nfb-talk-owner at nfbnet.org
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of nfb-talk digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: do we focus too much on national conventions? (Mike Freeman)
2. Adult Braille readers are Leaders Contest (Eric Calhoun)
3. Re: Fw: [Quietcars] urgent problem, distant research
(Wm. Ritchhart)
4. Re: do we focus too much on national conventions? (C Applegate)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 22:10:37 -0700
From: "Mike Freeman" < mailto:k7uij at panix.com k7uij at panix.com
>
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] do we focus too much on national conventions?
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" < mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>
Message-ID: < mailto:001b01c815fc$37beeb60$cb5f1418 at owner96190708e 001b01c815fc$37beeb60$cb5f1418 at owner96190708e
>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Ray:
I don't disagree with your answers below. I suspect, however, that Chris
was chafing under the restriction that without attending conventions, he
is unable to directly vote on resolutions and other "sense of the
convention" type items. While on the surface, such complaints are
understandable, they fail to take into account the fact that there is no
other really practical method of implementing a system to gauge the will
of the membership. Plebecites? Not practical. Delegate assemblies?
That's what the rollcall votes at convention are all about.
Moreover, if one were to put in place some sort of extended process for
considering resolutions, the reality is that a small elite, i.e., the
Board of Directors, would have undue influence on such deliberations. So
while vesting supreme authority within the Federation to the convention
may leave some folks feeling left out, it is, like Churchill's
definition of democracy, the least worst of the alternatives.
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: Ray Foret Jr
To: NFB Talk Mailing List
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 9:53 PM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] do we focus too much on national conventions?
Joe, in your message, you say, in part,
"As for communication outside of convention, I think the blame is
mutual.
Until older members learn to embrace the full benefits of technology,
and
until younger members learn not to depend on technology so much, we
will not
fill the middle-age gap that exists at all levels of the movement.
Sound
contradictory? Think on it."
No, it does not sound contradictory at all; rather, it's perfectly
true.
But, why is it true. It's true partly because the younger generation
has
grown up spoiled and knowing nothing but the technology; meanwhile,
the
older generation had to learn to do things the manual or harder way.
What
ever will the younger generation do when their batteries die out and
there
aint no chargers? fair question don't y'all think?
As to attending the conventions, While I feel that Ken's answer
was very
condescending and not helpful at all, let me see what I can do to help
answer the question.
As others have said before me, we attend the convention for many
reasons; but, if you want the real bottom line, the convention is the
national policy determiner for the federation. I do not feel left out
just
because I never have enough money to attend one; though. I, for one,
believe members do in fact have a voice even if they can't attend
convention. It's called letter writing, phone calling or e-mailing.
Sometimes, we are asked to use that voice; witness our rescue of the
talking
book program earlier this year (which I believe we are still not quite
through rescuing just yet and may be called upon yet again to help).
Indeed, It is precisely because the NFB knows and believes in the
voices of
its blind members, (even the ones who cannot attend convention) that
it is
so strong. From time to time, it asks us to use that voice loud and
clear;
as it may well do regarding the quiet car topic. How, therefore, can
anyone
assert that we ordinary financially poor blind have no voice because
we
cannot physically attend the convention? I ask, not to be sarcastic;
but
rather, to try to stimulate your thinking. As for help for the deaf,
the
NFB does indeed provide hearing aid and now even Spanish translation
for
those who need it. Another individual complained he cannot cross
streets
because of his inability to determine perpendicular traffic from
parallel
traffic. Let him get help if he needs it. Perhaps it's a good time
to say
this. The NFB IS, NOT, opposed to blind people getting help if it is
needed. Many in the ACB believe and say that the NFB is opposed to
blind
people getting any kind of help at all. They refer to us as "super
blinks"
and so forth. Well, for that matter, they refer to any truly
independent
blind person as a "super blink" what a slap in the face that is; both
to
then and to us.
As for shortening the national convention, I fail to see how this can
ever
be done. Sooner or later, we'll just have to face the reality that
convention lasts for two weeks now and officially make it so. Then,
we
might be able to offer special discounts to those able to attend both
weeks
of the convention. Slightly lesser discounts to those attending only
the
first week, (the board meetings and such) or the second week, (the
policy
and decisions week). Thoughts?
Sincerely yours,
The Constantly Barefooted,
Ray
Home phone and fax:
(985)853-0139
E-mail:
rforetjratbellsouthdotnet
Skype Name:
barefootedray
Blog:
http://www.raysworld.blogs.com www.raysworld.blogs.com
Podcast .rss Feed:
http://feeds.feedburner.com/worldofray http://feeds.feedburner.com/worldofray
God bless President George W. Bush!
God bless our troops!
and God bless America
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Orozco" < mailto:jsorozco at gmail.com jsorozco at gmail.com
>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" < mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 11:25 PM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] do we focus too much on national conventions?
Chris,
Normally I hate the parallel people draw between blindness consumer
groups
and political parties. Yet when it comes to conventions I believe the
comparison is a valid one. On a business level the NFB can use the
opportunity to sell its products and services while advancing its
philosophical and legislative agenda, all of this while simultaneously
generating the most fundraising than at any other point in the year.
On a
recruitment level the organization can reach out through its
divisions,
committees and social gatherings to lock in and hold on to newcomers
in
hopes that they might return home and encourage others to jump in.
Where
the parallel falls short is when you consider the personal level.
Some
people really are turned around by a national convention. Some people
really do use convention as their personal vacation. Still others may
only
truly venture out of their comfort zone by attending a convention, and
for
that reason alone national conventions can be our single most
important
feature. At times I think the best service we can do for a person who
has
never really known independence is to put them in an environment of
swinging
canes, passing dogs and total chaos at the elevators to really let
them see
how independent they could be.
As for communication outside of convention, I think the blame is
mutual.
Until older members learn to embrace the full benefits of technology,
and
until younger members learn not to depend on technology so much, we
will not
fill the middle-age gap that exists at all levels of the movement.
Sound
contradictory? Think on it.
Joe Orozco
"I came, I saw, I conquered."--Julius Caesar
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Westbrook" < mailto:westbc at clw19.com westbc at clw19.com
>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" < mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 9:09 PM
Subject: [nfb-talk] do we focus too much on national conventions?
I read a lot of literature in the NFB about how conventions change
people's
lives, and I'm sure to some extent that is true, but I wonder if we
focus
too much on the convention as a policy setter for the organization?
I'm
sure there are lots of people who cannot for whatever reason make the
national convention who would like to contribute their opinions on
current
and/or future policy, practices, etc. I was not able to attend this
year
because I only got one week of vacation for my job, and I don't see
myself
attending anytime soon since the summer is a busy time for our
company. I
worry that the NFB is ruling out contributions from highly intelligent
blind
people who simply have other commitments during that time period. I
think
we also must remember that convention isn't a fun experience for
everyone.
I went with my mother a few years ago, and if I had gone alone I
honestly
think convention would have been hell for me. The huge dinner crowds
meant
I couldn't eat in the hotel because with my hearing loss the noise was
just
too overwhelming. If I had to worry about finding a restaurant
outside the
hotel (I can't cross streets independently due to my inability to
distinguish parallel from perpendicular traffic) and worry about the
cost of
eating out every night that would have definitely put a damper on my
convention experience. One thing I like that ACB does is provide
support
personnel for people who have hearing impairments in addition to
blindness
to help with situations like that, but that's a topic for a whole
other
message. The exhibit hall was also overwhelming. The various
speeches were
nice, but were they worth traveling all across the country for? I
suppose
it depends on your perspective. I'm not advocating for the
elimination of a
national convention, though I think this will become a greater issue
as
prices for hotels and other things keep going up, but I'm just curious
how a
person who can't or won't go to convention gets involved? There is no
chapter in my area, so perhaps my view of NFB is a bit warped by this
fact.
and yes I realize that a large part of being a federationist is just
getting
out into the community, etc., which I'm doing, but that still doesn't
really
change what I said above. I'm interested in your thoughts.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> nfb-talk mailing list
> mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk
>
_______________________________________________
nfb-talk mailing list
mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk
_______________________________________________
nfb-talk mailing list
mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk
-------------- next part --------------
Ray:
?
I don't disagree with your answers below. I suspect, however, that Chris was chafing under the restriction that without attending conventions, he is unable to directly vote on resolutions and other "sense of the convention" type items. While on the surface, such complaints are understandable, they fail to take into account the fact that there is no other really practical method of implementing a system to gauge the will of the membership. Plebecites? Not practical. Delegate assemblies? That's what the rollcall votes at convention are all about.
?
Moreover, if one were to put in place some sort of extended process for considering resolutions, the reality is that a small elite, i.e., the Board of Directors, would have undue influence on such deliberations. So while vesting supreme authority within the Federation to the convention may leave some folks feeling left out, it is, like Churchill's definition of democracy, the least worst of the alternatives.
?
Mike
?
----- Original Message -----
From:
mailto:rforetjr at bellsouth.net mailto:rforetjr at bellsouth.net
Ray Foret Jr
To:
mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
NFB Talk Mailing List
Sent:
Tuesday, October 23, 2007 9:53 PM
Subject:
Re: [nfb-talk] do we focus too much on national conventions?
Joe, in your message, you say, in part,
"As for communication outside of convention, I think the blame is mutual.
Until older members learn to embrace the full benefits of technology, and
until younger members learn not to depend on technology so much, we will not
fill the middle-age gap that exists at all levels of the movement.? Sound
contradictory?? Think on it."
No, it does not sound contradictory at all; rather, it's perfectly true.
But, why is it true.? It's true partly because the younger generation has
grown up spoiled and knowing nothing but the technology; meanwhile, the
older generation had to learn to do things the manual or harder way.? What
ever will the younger generation do when their batteries die out and there
aint no chargers?? fair question don't y'all think?
??? As to attending the conventions, While I feel that Ken's answer was very
condescending and not helpful at all, let me see what I can do to help
answer the question.
??? As others have said before me, we attend the convention for many
reasons; but, if you want the real bottom line, the convention is the
national policy determiner for the federation.? I do not feel left out just
because I never have enough money to attend one; though.? I, for one,
believe members do in fact have a voice even if they can't attend
convention.? It's called letter writing, phone calling or e-mailing.
Sometimes, we are asked to use that voice; witness our rescue of the talking
book program earlier this year (which I believe we are still not quite
through rescuing just yet and may be called upon yet again to help).
Indeed, It is precisely because the NFB knows and believes in the voices of
its blind members, (even the ones who cannot attend convention) that it is
so strong.? From time to time, it asks us to use that voice loud and clear;
as it may well do regarding the quiet car topic.? How, therefore, can anyone
assert that we ordinary financially poor blind have no voice because we
cannot physically attend the convention?? I ask, not to be sarcastic; but
rather, to try to stimulate your thinking.? As for help for the deaf, the
NFB does indeed provide hearing aid and now even Spanish translation for
those who need it.? Another individual complained he cannot cross streets
because of his inability to determine perpendicular traffic from parallel
traffic.? Let him get help if he needs it.? Perhaps it's a good time to say
this.? The NFB IS, NOT, opposed to blind people getting help if it is
needed.? Many in the ACB believe and say that the NFB is opposed to blind
people getting any kind of help at all.? They refer to us as "super blinks"
and so forth.? Well, for that matter, they refer to any truly independent
blind person as a "super blink" what a slap in the face that is; both to
then and to us.
As for shortening the national convention, I fail to see how this can ever
be done.? Sooner or later, we'll just have to face the reality that
convention lasts for two weeks now and officially make it so.? Then, we
might be able to offer special discounts to those able to attend both weeks
of the convention.? Slightly lesser discounts to those attending only the
first week, (the board meetings and such) or the second week, (the policy
and decisions week).? Thoughts?
Sincerely yours,
The Constantly Barefooted,
Ray
Home phone and fax:
(985)853-0139
E-mail:
rforetjratbellsouthdotnet
Skype Name:
barefootedray
Blog:
http://www.raysworld.blogs.com http://www.raysworld.blogs.com
http://www.raysworld.blogs.com www.raysworld.blogs.com
Podcast .rss Feed:
http://feeds.feedburner.com/worldofray http://feeds.feedburner.com/worldofray
http://feeds.feedburner.com/worldofray http://feeds.feedburner.com/worldofray
God bless President George W. Bush!
God bless our troops!
and God bless America
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Orozco" < mailto:jsorozco at gmail.com mailto:jsorozco at gmail.com
mailto:jsorozco at gmail.com jsorozco at gmail.com
>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" < mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 11:25 PM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] do we focus too much on national conventions?
Chris,
Normally I hate the parallel people draw between blindness consumer groups
and political parties.? Yet when it comes to conventions I believe the
comparison is a valid one.? On a business level the NFB can use the
opportunity to sell its products and services while advancing its
philosophical and legislative agenda, all of this while simultaneously
generating the most fundraising than at any other point in the year.? On a
recruitment level the organization can reach out through its divisions,
committees and social gatherings to lock in and hold on to newcomers in
hopes that they might return home and encourage others to jump in.? Where
the parallel falls short is when you consider the personal level.? Some
people really are turned around by a national convention.? Some people
really do use convention as their personal vacation.? Still others may only
truly venture out of their comfort zone by attending a convention, and for
that reason alone national conventions can be our single most important
feature.? At times I think the best service we can do for a person who has
never really known independence is to put them in an environment of swinging
canes, passing dogs and total chaos at the elevators to really let them see
how independent they could be.
As for communication outside of convention, I think the blame is mutual.
Until older members learn to embrace the full benefits of technology, and
until younger members learn not to depend on technology so much, we will not
fill the middle-age gap that exists at all levels of the movement.? Sound
contradictory?? Think on it.
Joe Orozco
"I came, I saw, I conquered."--Julius Caesar
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Westbrook" < mailto:westbc at clw19.com mailto:westbc at clw19.com
mailto:westbc at clw19.com westbc at clw19.com
>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" < mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 9:09 PM
Subject: [nfb-talk] do we focus too much on national conventions?
I read a lot of literature in the NFB about how conventions change people's
lives, and I'm sure to some extent that is true, but I wonder if we focus
too much on the convention as a policy setter for the organization?? I'm
sure there are lots of people who cannot for whatever reason make the
national convention who would like to contribute their opinions on current
and/or future policy, practices, etc.? I was not able to attend this year
because I only got one week of vacation for my job, and I don't see myself
attending anytime soon since the summer is a busy time for our company.? I
worry that the NFB is ruling out contributions from highly intelligent blind
people who simply have other commitments during that time period.? I think
we also must remember that convention isn't a fun experience for everyone.
I went with my mother a few years ago, and if I had gone alone I honestly
think convention would have been hell for me.? The huge dinner crowds meant
I couldn't eat in the hotel because with my hearing loss the noise was just
too overwhelming.? If I had to worry about finding a restaurant outside the
hotel (I can't cross streets independently due to my inability to
distinguish parallel from perpendicular traffic) and worry about the cost of
eating out every night that would have definitely put a damper on my
convention experience.? One thing I like that ACB does is provide support
personnel for people who have hearing impairments in addition to blindness
to help with situations like that, but that's a topic for a whole other
message.? The exhibit hall was also overwhelming.? The various speeches were
nice, but were they worth traveling all across the country for?? I suppose
it depends on your perspective.? I'm not advocating for the elimination of a
national convention, though I think this will become a greater issue as
prices for hotels and other things keep going up, but I'm just curious how a
person who can't or won't go to convention gets involved?? There is no
chapter in my area, so perhaps my view of NFB is a bit warped by this fact.
and yes I realize that a large part of being a federationist is just getting
out into the community, etc., which I'm doing, but that still doesn't really
change what I said above.? I'm interested in your thoughts.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> nfb-talk mailing list
> mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk
>
_______________________________________________
nfb-talk mailing list
mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk
_______________________________________________
nfb-talk mailing list
mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 02:35:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: Eric Calhoun < mailto:eric at pmpmail.com eric at pmpmail.com
>
Subject: [nfb-talk] Adult Braille readers are Leaders Contest
To: mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
Message-ID: < mailto:20071024063513.0AC5F5F2C2 at node21.smtp.com 20071024063513.0AC5F5F2C2 at node21.smtp.com
>
I'd like to address a couple of people in this message, if you please:
Chris, you have a valid point, when you associate national Conventions
with crowd noise' and for crossing streets with parallel, versus
perpendicular traffic. However, I have a couple of suggestions.
Number 1. _If you _know, beyond the shadow of a doubt, you have problems
crossing streets using (green,) parallel, and (red), perpendicular, make
certain you find someone who can help you, and _stay _there, until someone
can help you. This may take a few minutes.
Number 2. Use parratransit. That means: get with your local company
that has parratransit, and tell them what you're doing; and ask them to
_fax) your application, for a 21-day pass. While at the Convention,
utilize their services. (Don't wait till the same day to go out; you may
not get a ride. Also, plan ahead.)
Ray:
I agree with you. Federationists, who cannot afford to go to the
National Convention have as just as much of a voice, as those who can
attend. All one must do is get an idea by e-mailing their State President,
and the nfb Board.
The younger generation of the Federation should not have to attend
National Conventions, via scholarship; give them other incentives. Here in
California, (and I feel it's unpopular with a few people), it was decided
that if people read one or more Kernel Books, and reported upon what
they've read at the next meeting, that person may win a free trip to the
next National Convention. I have a better idea: If all of us e-mail the
National Office to start an adult "Braille Readers Are Leaders" similar to
the children's, or juvenile, contest, and everybody agrees to this contest,
the person(s) who reads the highest number of pages should win a free trip
to the next National Convention. Thoughts please?
Eric
-
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 06:02:09 -0400
From: "Wm. Ritchhart" < mailto:william.ritchhart at sbcglobal.net william.ritchhart at sbcglobal.net
>
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Fw: [Quietcars] urgent problem, distant
research
To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" < mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>
Message-ID: < mailto:000001c81624$f10b6a30$4001a8c0 at RITCHHART 000001c81624$f10b6a30$4001a8c0 at RITCHHART
>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I believe, that actually the first person hit and killed by a quiet car
was a sighted person who was hit by a driver who was multi-tasking.
This is a serious problem for all pedestrians, not just blind.
William
-----Original Message-----
From: mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
[mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of RyanO
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 8:09 AM
To: NFB Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Fw: [Quietcars] urgent problem, distant research
I wasn't making a point. I was merely asking a reasonable question. If
we're
going to maintain this debate, some hard numbers wouldn't hurt.
RyanO
_______________________________________________
nfb-talk mailing list
mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 09:23:32 -0500
From: "C Applegate" < mailto:marshapple at austin.rr.com marshapple at austin.rr.com
>
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] do we focus too much on national conventions?
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" < mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>
Message-ID: < mailto:007901c81649$74c43ae0$0202a8c0 at 2UB532098T 007901c81649$74c43ae0$0202a8c0 at 2UB532098T
>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
I think that the convention is an indispensable part of our movement. There
is however one area that I think could help out with the length of it and
allow more people to have a say in the movement.
That is to move the resolutions debate to one of the first days. It seems
to me that by the time we get to them a large majority of the people have
left. Thus leaving the decision making to a few. There may be reasons for
its current time slot in the convention, but I can not see the benefit of
leaving it to the last. If this question has been hashed out before, then
someone give me the condensed version please.
Clint
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Freeman" < mailto:k7uij at panix.com k7uij at panix.com
>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" < mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 12:10 AM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] do we focus too much on national conventions?
> Ray:
>
> I don't disagree with your answers below. I suspect, however, that Chris
> was chafing under the restriction that without attending conventions, he
> is unable to directly vote on resolutions and other "sense of the
> convention" type items. While on the surface, such complaints are
> understandable, they fail to take into account the fact that there is no
> other really practical method of implementing a system to gauge the will
> of the membership. Plebecites? Not practical. Delegate assemblies?
> That's what the rollcall votes at convention are all about.
>
> Moreover, if one were to put in place some sort of extended process for
> considering resolutions, the reality is that a small elite, i.e., the
> Board of Directors, would have undue influence on such deliberations. So
> while vesting supreme authority within the Federation to the convention
> may leave some folks feeling left out, it is, like Churchill's
> definition of democracy, the least worst of the alternatives.
>
> Mike
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ray Foret Jr
> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
> Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 9:53 PM
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] do we focus too much on national conventions?
>
>
> Joe, in your message, you say, in part,
> "As for communication outside of convention, I think the blame is
> mutual.
> Until older members learn to embrace the full benefits of technology,
> and
> until younger members learn not to depend on technology so much, we
> will not
> fill the middle-age gap that exists at all levels of the movement.
> Sound
> contradictory? Think on it."
> No, it does not sound contradictory at all; rather, it's perfectly
> true.
> But, why is it true. It's true partly because the younger generation
> has
> grown up spoiled and knowing nothing but the technology; meanwhile,
> the
> older generation had to learn to do things the manual or harder way.
> What
> ever will the younger generation do when their batteries die out and
> there
> aint no chargers? fair question don't y'all think?
>
> As to attending the conventions, While I feel that Ken's answer
> was very
> condescending and not helpful at all, let me see what I can do to help
> answer the question.
>
> As others have said before me, we attend the convention for many
> reasons; but, if you want the real bottom line, the convention is the
> national policy determiner for the federation. I do not feel left out
> just
> because I never have enough money to attend one; though. I, for one,
> believe members do in fact have a voice even if they can't attend
> convention. It's called letter writing, phone calling or e-mailing.
> Sometimes, we are asked to use that voice; witness our rescue of the
> talking
> book program earlier this year (which I believe we are still not quite
> through rescuing just yet and may be called upon yet again to help).
> Indeed, It is precisely because the NFB knows and believes in the
> voices of
> its blind members, (even the ones who cannot attend convention) that
> it is
> so strong. From time to time, it asks us to use that voice loud and
> clear;
> as it may well do regarding the quiet car topic. How, therefore, can
> anyone
> assert that we ordinary financially poor blind have no voice because
> we
> cannot physically attend the convention? I ask, not to be sarcastic;
> but
> rather, to try to stimulate your thinking. As for help for the deaf,
> the
> NFB does indeed provide hearing aid and now even Spanish translation
> for
> those who need it. Another individual complained he cannot cross
> streets
> because of his inability to determine perpendicular traffic from
> parallel
> traffic. Let him get help if he needs it. Perhaps it's a good time
> to say
> this. The NFB IS, NOT, opposed to blind people getting help if it is
> needed. Many in the ACB believe and say that the NFB is opposed to
> blind
> people getting any kind of help at all. They refer to us as "super
> blinks"
> and so forth. Well, for that matter, they refer to any truly
> independent
> blind person as a "super blink" what a slap in the face that is; both
> to
> then and to us.
> As for shortening the national convention, I fail to see how this can
> ever
> be done. Sooner or later, we'll just have to face the reality that
> convention lasts for two weeks now and officially make it so. Then,
> we
> might be able to offer special discounts to those able to attend both
> weeks
> of the convention. Slightly lesser discounts to those attending only
> the
> first week, (the board meetings and such) or the second week, (the
> policy
> and decisions week). Thoughts?
>
> Sincerely yours,
> The Constantly Barefooted,
> Ray
> Home phone and fax:
> (985)853-0139
> E-mail:
> rforetjratbellsouthdotnet
> Skype Name:
> barefootedray
> Blog:
> http://www.raysworld.blogs.com www.raysworld.blogs.com
> Podcast .rss Feed:
> http://feeds.feedburner.com/worldofray http://feeds.feedburner.com/worldofray
>
> God bless President George W. Bush!
> God bless our troops!
> and God bless America
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joe Orozco" < mailto:jsorozco at gmail.com jsorozco at gmail.com
>
> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" < mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 11:25 PM
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] do we focus too much on national conventions?
>
>
> Chris,
>
> Normally I hate the parallel people draw between blindness consumer
> groups
> and political parties. Yet when it comes to conventions I believe the
> comparison is a valid one. On a business level the NFB can use the
> opportunity to sell its products and services while advancing its
> philosophical and legislative agenda, all of this while simultaneously
> generating the most fundraising than at any other point in the year.
> On a
> recruitment level the organization can reach out through its
> divisions,
> committees and social gatherings to lock in and hold on to newcomers
> in
> hopes that they might return home and encourage others to jump in.
> Where
> the parallel falls short is when you consider the personal level.
> Some
> people really are turned around by a national convention. Some people
> really do use convention as their personal vacation. Still others may
> only
> truly venture out of their comfort zone by attending a convention, and
> for
> that reason alone national conventions can be our single most
> important
> feature. At times I think the best service we can do for a person who
> has
> never really known independence is to put them in an environment of
> swinging
> canes, passing dogs and total chaos at the elevators to really let
> them see
> how independent they could be.
>
> As for communication outside of convention, I think the blame is
> mutual.
> Until older members learn to embrace the full benefits of technology,
> and
> until younger members learn not to depend on technology so much, we
> will not
> fill the middle-age gap that exists at all levels of the movement.
> Sound
> contradictory? Think on it.
>
> Joe Orozco
>
> "I came, I saw, I conquered."--Julius Caesar
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chris Westbrook" < mailto:westbc at clw19.com westbc at clw19.com
>
> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" < mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 9:09 PM
> Subject: [nfb-talk] do we focus too much on national conventions?
>
>
> I read a lot of literature in the NFB about how conventions change
> people's
> lives, and I'm sure to some extent that is true, but I wonder if we
> focus
> too much on the convention as a policy setter for the organization?
> I'm
> sure there are lots of people who cannot for whatever reason make the
> national convention who would like to contribute their opinions on
> current
> and/or future policy, practices, etc. I was not able to attend this
> year
> because I only got one week of vacation for my job, and I don't see
> myself
> attending anytime soon since the summer is a busy time for our
> company. I
> worry that the NFB is ruling out contributions from highly intelligent
> blind
> people who simply have other commitments during that time period. I
> think
> we also must remember that convention isn't a fun experience for
> everyone.
> I went with my mother a few years ago, and if I had gone alone I
> honestly
> think convention would have been hell for me. The huge dinner crowds
> meant
> I couldn't eat in the hotel because with my hearing loss the noise was
> just
> too overwhelming. If I had to worry about finding a restaurant
> outside the
> hotel (I can't cross streets independently due to my inability to
> distinguish parallel from perpendicular traffic) and worry about the
> cost of
> eating out every night that would have definitely put a damper on my
> convention experience. One thing I like that ACB does is provide
> support
> personnel for people who have hearing impairments in addition to
> blindness
> to help with situations like that, but that's a topic for a whole
> other
> message. The exhibit hall was also overwhelming. The various
> speeches were
> nice, but were they worth traveling all across the country for? I
> suppose
> it depends on your perspective. I'm not advocating for the
> elimination of a
> national convention, though I think this will become a greater issue
> as
> prices for hotels and other things keep going up, but I'm just curious
> how a
> person who can't or won't go to convention gets involved? There is no
> chapter in my area, so perhaps my view of NFB is a bit warped by this
> fact.
> and yes I realize that a large part of being a federationist is just
> getting
> out into the community, etc., which I'm doing, but that still doesn't
> really
> change what I said above. I'm interested in your thoughts.
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> > _______________________________________________
> > nfb-talk mailing list
> > mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> nfb-talk mailing list
> mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk
>
> _______________________________________________
> nfb-talk mailing list
> mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> nfb-talk mailing list
> mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk
>
------------------------------
_______________________________________________
nfb-talk mailing list
mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk
End of nfb-talk Digest, Vol 17, Issue 43
****************************************
More information about the nfb-talk
mailing list