[nfb-talk] Audible Walking Signals

Thu Nov 29 06:36:47 CST 2007

Good one Ray;
I used to room with a member of my chapter who had bad mobility skills
and was bad about organizing money.  I worked with her for a few years
and made her find her own way, to and from the room, on her own.  I was
following.  I tought her how to fold money.  She sure gets around a lot
better now and can room with who ever she and her grand daughter want
to.
I am proud to have been able to help a federationist.  
At state, a few years ago, there were problems with the fire alarms at
our hotel and since I could see the exit sign, I helped people find the
stair well.  
At work, I met a lady with a blind mother.  The mother was not getting
training from Doors, at that time.  The lady was on maternity leave.  I
tought the daughter the braille alphabet so she could start getting her
mother interested.  I also got the daughter interested in the NFB.
There is always a way to lend a helping hand.  

Terry Powers

-----Original Message-----
From: Ray Foret Jr [mailto:rforetjr at bellsouth.net] 
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 10:23 PM
To: NFB Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Audible Walking Signals

Somewhat at the risk of appearing to be a "yes" man, I'd like to second
what Kaye says here.  To speak plainly, if you don't believe in yourself
as a blind person, you won't believe in other blind people either, no
matter how competent they may actually be.  The reason you won't believe
in blind people of any competency is because of your own incompetency.
On the other side of that coin, if you do believe in yourself as a blind
person, you will believe in other blind people even if they happen not
to be very competent at the moment.  The reason you will believe in
other blind people is because of your own competency.  At the heart of
it, that's really what the Federation is all about; competent blind
people who believe in other blind people and help those perhaps less
competent skill wise to become more competent in such things as Braille
reading, independent travel and so forth.  In short, if you don't
believe you can do it, you won't believe any blind person can do it; on
the other hand, if you know you can do a thing, you're more likely to
help a blind person who maybe can't do that thing yet to accomplish that
thing; what ever it may be.
    To summarize the summary, we tend to see ourselves as others see us.

Sincerely yours,
The Constantly Barefooted,
Ray
Home phone and fax:
(985)853-0139
E-mail:
rforetjratbellsouthdotnet
Skype Name:
barefootedray
Blog:
www.raysworld.blogs.com
Podcast .rss Feed:
http://feeds.feedburner.com/worldofray

God bless President George W. Bush!
God bless our troops!
and God bless America
----- Original Message -----
From: "kaye zimpher" <kayezimpher at bellsouth.net>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 8:20 PM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Audible Walking Signals

Hi, I do not agree with this message respectfully, I live in a large
city
and we too have train stations where trains come in on both sides. For a
long time we did not have tactile warnings and I traveled to and from
school
and work on the train and felt very safe. In my opinion, it is a matter
of
training and confidence. If one is well trained and believes and knows
they
can travel safely they will. When the transportation system decided to
place
the tactile warnings down on the platforms. I then began to feel very
unsafe. I wore dress shoes to work every day and I can not tell you how
many
times I almost fell in to the train instead of walking on to it because
my
heel caught on that silly strip. As far as talking signals go, I find
them
quite distracting. I am not sure how traveling would be for a person
with a
hearing problem so I will not comment on that, but when I am listening
to
traffic sounds I do not like to hear chirp chirp every few seconds. I
also
get confused when the signals go off because I am not sure if it is a
walk
for my side or a walk for the other side. Now I can determine the answer
quite easily by listening to the traffic, but in that case why use the
signal at all? Totally blind people can do so much more than we are ever
given credit for, all we need is the training and self assurance to get
the
job done.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Milissa Garside" <milissa.g79 at gmail.com>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 11:20 AM
Subject: [nfb-talk] Audible Walking Signals

> Hi Joseph,
>
> I must respectfully disagree with your assertion that audible traffic
> signals do not help the blind. As a person who is totally blind and
who
> has
> a slight hearing impairment, audible traffic signals are extremely
helpful
> to me. Certainly, I don't think they need to be installed at every
> intersection but, I do feel that they are needed at a great deal of
> intersections and fighting the ACB on this issue is pointless.
>
> I have found that in talking to NFB folks, it depends on where you
live
> and
> your experience traveling decides one's opinion on audible traffic
signals
> and tactile warning strips on subway platforms. For example, I live
and
> Boston where we have crazy drivers, offset complex intersections, and
> subway
> platforms which have 6 foot drop offs. I don't care how well someone
is
> trained, some intersections around here are impossible to cross
without
> audible traffic signals. In terms of the subways, we have subway
platforms
> that have trains coming in on both sides. Basically, there is a
platform
> that has a 6 foot drop off on both sides; there is no wall for a blind
> person to use as a guide to travel on the platform. I don't care how
much
> training one has but, maneuvering a platform which is open on both
sides
> and
> there is no tactile guide to follow is asking for trouble. I'm not
saying
> that it can't be done but, it is extremely dangerous.
>
> Here is one area I do not agree with the NFB. If traffic lights are
> available to sighted people for a reason, why then should they not
have an
> audible signal for the blind? Also, since subway platforms have a
visual
> yellow line for sighted people, why not then make the yellow line
tactile
> so
> that blind people can have the same safety information? I think that
the
> NFB
> some times gets to carried away with what blind people can do with
proper
> training. If safety information is already there for sighted people,
there
> is no reason why it shouldn't be there for blind people. Obviously,
> traffic
> lights and yellow lines on platforms are a safety measure for the
sighted
> and I find it piposterous when blind people say that we do not need
the
> same
> type of safety information simply because we can be trained to the
point
> where we don't need it. I find that most people who cling to the idea
that
> proper training can concor all are generally those who have not
> experienced
> living in big cities like Boston and other big cities. When making
traffic
> lights and platform edges accessible for the blind, we are not asking
for
> "special treatment" we are entitled to the same safety measures that
are
> put
> in place for the sighted.
>
> Milissa
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "T. Joseph Carter" <tjcarter at bluecherry.net>
> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 5:21 AM
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB and ACB
>
>
>> Mike,
>>
>> Of course we should fight their position when it is destructive.
>>
>> Squawking signals are the perfect example of what I mean about how we
do
>> so being such a key point, however.  When we address these signals,
it is
>> important that we discuss the merits in our position and the flaws in
>> theirs.  For example, the fact that a walk signal does not in fact
mean
>> that you can safely cross the street and that loud noises make it
more
>> difficult to judge the real cues of when it is safe to cross--namely
the
>> sounds of traffic.
>>
>> What we should not do is say that the ACB is just whining that they
need
>> something to tell them when to cross the street because they
apparently
>> lack proper training necessary to cross a street without them.  This
kind
>> of argument isn't helpful, even if it is offered as a means to vent
some
>> steam about their stubborn insistence on putting these damned things
at
>> every intersection in America.
>>
>> The former argument justifies our position in opposing these things.
The
>> latter argument suggests that we have so little real support for our
>> position that we must resort to attacking our philosophical opponents
in
>> order to try and win the debate.  That simply isn't true--we have
tons of
>> evidence to support that these signals are not needed and that when
they
>> are used, they impede the skills of a competent blind traveler.
>>
>> My nearest city, good ol' sunny Salem, Oregon is a place where we
have
>> failed to be convincing in our arguments to that effect.  We either
did
>> not or could not effectively compete against the combined lobbying
>> efforts
>> of the ACB and AARP to push for these things to be installed all over
the
>> place.
>>
>> I don't think we presently have the strength needed to get them
removed.
>> Nor do I believe we can stop new ones from being installed.  We lost
that
>> fight for the time being.  I do think we can influence what sort of
>> signal
>> gets installed to ensure that this misfeature need not be forced upon
us.
>>
>> It still means the money to install them is going to be wasted.
That's
>> very unfortunate.  I wish we had managed to prevent them adopting the
>> policy to roll these things out whenever they service a traffic
signal,
>> but we weren't able to do that.  At least they're doing it only when
a
>> signal needs to be serviced--that reduces the cost substantially.
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 25, 2007 at 05:28:21PM -0800, Mike Freeman wrote:
>>> Joe:
>>>
>>> But it goes beyond what you call "the feud". If ACB truly is doing
>>> something we of NFB view as destructive, do we not have a duty to
fight
>>> it? Most assuredly, we cannot fight every battle. TYou don't see us
>>> saying much, for example, about ACB's "Video Restoration Act". It
won't
>>> pass. But if the currency suit has even the remotest chance of doing
>>> harm, do not we have a duty to at least consider responding?
>>>
>>> Let me assure you that ACB surely complains when we oppose audible
>>> traffic signals because we consider them dangerous and misleading.
What
>>> I
>>> am saying is that in saying we shouldn't deal with ACB and just let
it
>>> do
>>> its thing, what often effectively happens is that we abandon the
field
>>> of
>>> battle to them. Is this not an abrogation of our responsibilities as
an
>>> organization fighting for what we believe to be the welfare of the
>>> blind?
>>> And let me assure you, ACB leaders are trying their darndest to keep
>>> alive the false notions they so cherish of what they believe NFB to
be.
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From:
>>> mailto:tjcarter at bluecherry.net T. Joseph Carter
>>> To:
>>> mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org NFB Talk Mailing List
>>> Sent:
>>> Sunday, November 25, 2007 1:46 PM
>>> Subject:
>>> Re: [nfb-talk] NFB and ACB
>>> William,
>>> It is then our responsibility to not reciprocate the cycle. I
realize
>>> that seems counter-intuitive--after all why should we not impede
their
>>> operations if they impede ours?
>>> We should not because we have better things to do with our time,
>>> resources, and membership. If they try to function as the anti-NFB,
as
>>> many here (myself included) believe has been the case, they won't
exist
>>> in
>>> thirty years, because new members aren't going to want to get
involved
>>> with that.
>>> However, my point has been and remains that it holds true for the
>>> Federation as well. Prospective new members like Corey have no
interest
>>> in joining the feud. Those of us my age and younger who aren't too
>>> self-absorbed to get involved with something bigger than ourselves
are
>>> interested in seeing that things get done.
>>> On Sun, Nov 25, 2007 at 10:00:52AM -0500, Wm. Ritchhart wrote:
>>> > Joseph,
>>> >
>>> > Unfortunately, what has occurred in South Carolina in regard to
>>> > Newsline
>>> > has occurred in many places across the country. Here in Indiana
>>> > though,
>>> > the NFB kept right on fighting until we got Newsline funded.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > William
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > -----Original Message-----
>>> > From: mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>> > On Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter
>>> > Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2007 5:25 AM
>>> > To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>> > Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB and ACB
>>> >
>>> > I don't know the circumstances of that issue, but I think I would
be
>>> > hard
>>> > pressed to see the value in the ACB opposing Newsline. I've seen
in
>>> > the
>>> > past few years one or two people try to disrupt it in a few places
>>> > just
>>> > to
>>> > screw with the NFB on behalf of the ACB, and I hope that this was
not
>>> > one
>>> > of those instances.
>>> >
>>> > I would hope that the leadership of the ACB would consider such
>>> > spiteful
>>> > attempts to undermine the Newsline specifically because of its
>>> > connection
>>> > to the NFB as disdainful as I do. That kind of behavior is beneath
>>> > their
>>> > dignity. As would it be for us to engage in the same kind of
behavior.
>>> >
>>> > If indeed the situation in South Carolina was political sabotage,
I
>>> > would
>>> > consider it not a victory, but a shameful act to be neither
repeated
>>> > nor
>>> > reciprocated. Neither organization can be totally successful
fighting
>>> > for
>>> > the blind if we distract ourselves by fighting against the blind
based
>>> > on
>>> > the initials they wear on their t-shirts.
>>> >
>>> > I have lived places where the NFB was not a strong organization.
In
>>> > California, the NFB is pretty weak. In Oregon, neither
organization is
>>> > particularly strong at the moment. I maintain my membership in the
NFB
>>> > because I generally believe in the NFB's approach. I know for
certain
>>> > that if I wait for an accommodation from the powers that be, I'll
>>> > fail.
>>> >
>>> > Now, I could let myself fail and then try to fight for what was
denied
>>> > me,
>>> > or I can choose not to let them have the power to impede my
progress.
>>> > I
>>> > have enough experience to know that not only do they tend to drag
>>> > their
>>> > feet at every turn, but that I am better at providing for myself
than
>>> > they
>>> > ever have been.
>>> >
>>> > The ACB simply does not reflect those values, so I have always
>>> > supported
>>> > the NFB. To do otherwise would be like joining the dominant
political
>>> > party in the area simply because they are more popular. The party
>>> > would
>>> > surely welcome my support to increase their popularity, but that
>>> > doesn't
>>> > mean they're going to vote the way I want when the bills come
their
>>> > way.
>>> > (Of course, I believe that's true of both political parties, but
the
>>> > analogy stands..)
>>> >
>>> > I know where the NFB will stand on most issues. Often, I
understand
>>> > and
>>> > agree with the Federation's position automatically. Sometimes, I
need
>>> > to
>>> > be convinced it's right.
>>> >
>>> > Sometimes I'm just going to disagree period--as in this case with
the
>>> > currency thing. I think we should neither support nor impede the
ACB's
>>> > legal action. We should prepare to combat the public misconception
>>> > that
>>> > failure of this legal action means that blind people can't work
with
>>> > money
>>> > in the case that the ACB fails. At the same time, we should
prepare a
>>> > proposal for the US Treasury Department both on what sort of
>>> > adaptations
>>> > to the currency are pragmatically applicable along with a fiscally
>>> > responsible transition plan in the case that the ACB succeeds.
>>> >
>>> > Our stated opinion in the NFB is that there are far more important
>>> > things
>>> > for us to worry about than whether our money is all the same size
and
>>> > shape or not. I mostly agree with that. I think it cannot hurt to
be
>>> > prepared for the outcome, but beyond that I would rather work on
the
>>> > bigger issues of employment and education.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Sat, Nov 24, 2007 at 09:35:17AM -0500, David W Bundy wrote:
>>> > > Corey,
>>> > > The power in both the NFB & ACB is a collective voice. When we
speak
>>> > as either NFB or ACB, those to whom we are speaking hear us much
more
>>> > loudly than if we speak as David and Corey & we are much more
likely
>>> > to
>>> > get what it is we are asking for. I recall once Dr. Jernagan
saying
>>> > that you should join which ever organization is more likely to get
you
>>> > the results you seek--If you are in an area with a strong NFB
>>> > presence,
>>> > then join NFB, but if you live in an area without a strong NFB
>>> > presence
>>> > but a Strong ACB group, then by all means Join ACB--But whatever
you
>>> > choose, join something so your voice will be heard. In South
Carolina,
>>> > The NFB is a powerbul force with a strong track record while the
ACB
>>> > presence is little more than token. NFB has two to three hundred
at
>>> > our
>>> > convention each year while I,m told that ACB's convention averages
15
>>> > or
>>> > 20. NFB has been successful in passing a number of laws in SC,
>>> > incleuding establishment of the Commission for the blind & several
de!
>>> > fe!
>>> > > ats of attempts to restructure it out of existance, as well as
bills
>>> > to require that TVI's be trained in Braille to name a few. The
only
>>> > ACB
>>> > legislative victory for ACB in SC that I am aware of, aside from
those
>>> > times when they joined with us for obvious things, was the
withdrawal
>>> > of
>>> > funding for Newsline. So clearly, in SC, the wise choice would be
NFB.
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > nfb-talk mailing list
>>> > mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk
>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > nfb-talk mailing list
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>>
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>
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