[nfb-talk] state con attendance

[Sherri]

I have to agree with Chris on the inaccessibility of common appliances and 
electronics. The average home theater equipment is now too visual for us to 
use. And DVD players, for the most part, forget it. Pretty soon, we're not 
even going to be able to sit home and listen to the radio or stereo, as many 
sighted people think that's all we are capable of doing. *smile*.

Sherri
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Chris Westbrook" <westbc at clw19.com>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 8:28 PM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] state con attendance


My reply is mixed in your message, with chris's reply placed before my text.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ray Foret Jr" <rforetjr at bellsouth.net>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 6:19 PM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] state con attendance


> Chris, I'd like to know something.  Could you please explain a little more
> about what you mean by saying that the NFB does things from the top down.
> Your message seems to imply that the leadership of the NFB thinks they
> know
> better than the average blind person out there.  Would you be good enough
> to
> give specific examples of what you mean by that?  Also, there is a tone in
> your message which gently implies that the NFB leadership seems to hate
> technology because they can't be bothered to make the average microwave
> accessible and they don't want to stream the national convention.
chris's reply: I wasn't clear enough in my message.  What I meant to say was
that there will eventually come a time, in the not so distant future I'm
afraid, when most kitchen and other appliances will be inaccessible and
unusable, and I'm not sure what hte NFB is doing about htat or will do about
it.  I understand there is a huge emphasis right now on making science and
engineering accessible, but I think this benefits a relatively small amount
of people compared to those who may benefit from research and/or
technologies htat make everyday appliances usable.  The target case is a
good start, and I'd like to see more of that.  I'm just afraid our do it
yourself attitude may lead us to not realize when things are really getting
worse.
I suspect
> that you misunderstood what Doctor Jernigan said in his last ever banquet
> speech.  He was not saying we should never fight anymore; rather, what he
> was saying was that we cannot always be in a war camp mentality.  That
> sort
> of attitude tends to drive people away; as I think you know.
chris's reply: Yes, I'm aware of that, but I think it is wrong to say we are
in the day after civil rights.  When blacks fought for equality in public
schools, they did not see themselves as having a warlike mentality.  They
knew it was something worth doing, and htey knew it had to e done.  My point
is simply that I agree that mentality can drive people away, but at the same
time I don't think we're anywhere close to being at that day when we can be
complacent and only asking for equal responsibility.  What I object to is
the title of htat speech.  I don't think we've reached the day after civil
rights, and I don't think we will for a long time.  I know some of the old
timers on this list probably see me as an ungreatful bastard, and I really
don't mean to sound that way, but while I think there is greater
opportunity, there is a greater chance for it to be taken away.  If
Microsoft were to come out with a new version of their development tools
that is inaccessible, I would most likely lose my job.  In the past, a lot
of blind people had physical jobs or menial mental jobs that didn't require
a computer.  No company in there right minds is going to hire two people to
do one person's job, a blind person and a reader.  If the lind person is
forced to pay out of pocket for a reader, that eats away at the blind
person's takehome pay and could make the job worthwhile.  Also, in many
situations I don't think a company would let you hire a reader even if you
paid for him/her.  Why should they with all of the concerns over data and
identity theft?  I remember when I was dealing with financial data for our
company.  Only the IT Department and the top accountant were allowed to view
the reports we were working on.  I was having a very difficult time with
them because of some technical issues.  I asked for a reader, and was told
that they would check the company's position on that and get back to me.
I'm still waiting, and that was about a year ago.  Now to be fair, I was
moved onto another project that didn't require a reader, but if there hadn't
been another project I could ahve been let go.  Do you really think they
would have let someone come in at $10/hour to see data that NO ONE else in
the company was allowed to see?  My point is that saying "use a reader" is
no longer a valid answer for everything, and I'm very concerned about
inaccessible software and employment.  Eventually we will have to do
something about it, I think, but I don't really here discussion on it at
all, nless we're just waiting for a better political climate... which could
be a long wait.
The over all
> gist of your message sxeems to ask really just one fundamental question.
> "Is
> the NFB really honestly doing any good at all?".  I'm not accusing you of
> anything; you understand; rather, I'm just trying to probe for some
> greater
> depth here.  Elsewhere, your message seems to say that the NFB leadership
> (who thinks they know better than the average blind financially poor blind
> person out there) criticizes the average financially poor blind person out
> there for asking for and or accepting assistance; but, at the same time,
> that same leadership can be found not only asking for but taking
> assistance
> when and where needed.  I think maybe you'll need to make a stronger case
> than you have so far for this.  The NFB has never asserted that blind
> people
> never need help.  All the NFB has ever said is that if we do not need
> help,
> please leave us alone.  Sounds reasonable to me don't you think?
Chris's reply: That is certainly reasonable as far as it goes, but I'm not
sure that's always how far it goes.  I think any reasonable blind person
would agree with that.  Unfortunately, I've run into Federationists who have
felt hte need to brag about learning places without mobility instruction
when I later found out that they had indeed received mobility instruction
from very good instructors in the area to which they referred.  Just
recently, I posted the message about not being able to go to convention and,
while I don't have the messages here, some of the responses I got were,
well, less than helpful.  Yet I read Kenneth Jernigan's letter ot the
students at Louisiana and find myself agreeing with it 100 percent.  I guess
I find myself frustrated with those federationists who mean well, but who
apparently have not read that article.  I've heard people comment on
Federationists who resent sighted people, etc., and I get frustrated because
I know you are crrect.

No, there
> is no "perfect super blind person" out there who has all the independence
> in
> the world.  Then again, no sighted person has that either.  Don't think
> I'm
> picking on you.  I just would like to see how good a case you can make for
> the things you say in your message.  I really want to know how you back
> yourself up.

chris's reply; I appreciate the thoughtful discussion.  I guess I'm just
seeing the world becoming in some ways increasingly inaccessible, and I'm
worried about my own future and I'm not sure how we as the federation will
deal with it.
>
> Sincerely yours,
> The Constantly Barefooted,
> Ray
> Home phone and fax:
> (985)853-0139
> E-mail:
> rforetjratbellsouthdotnet
> Skype Name:
> barefootedray
> Blog:
> www.raysworld.blogs.com
> Podcast .rss Feed:
> http://feeds.feedburner.com/worldofray
>
> God bless President George W. Bush!
> God bless our troops!
> and God bless America
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Chris Westbrook" <westbc at clw19.com>
> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 4:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] state con attendance
>
>
> Mike, you make some good points. Being a young blind person myself, I
> think
> it's sad that many younger blind people view progress as inevitable and
> feel
> no need to join an organization.  On the other hand, I'm not really sure
> what NFB is really doing to stop the tide from turning against us  The
> biggest issue I see looming ahead is a loss of access to information.
> This
> could be due to inaccessible computer software, inaccessible appliances,
> or
> any number of other things I haven't thought of.  On the inaccessible
> appliances front, we had a home showcase at convention, but do you really
> think that will make a difference?  I'm sure most manufacturers really
> don't
> care whether their products were coincidentally sort of accessible.  I
> hope
> our NFB Jernigan Institute can eventually help with this area.  That leads
> me to my next point, which is what mike said about some people believing
> that the national leadership are the experts.  I see the NFB as a very top
> down organization with much of it's activity happening at the national
> level.  I wonder if in the future the NFB will become more and more
> focused
> on it's Jernigan institute and basically be a clearinghouse for research
> and
> product design, while the ACB does most of the advocacy work?  I know for
> myself I really don't see that many ways for a rank and file member to
> influence policy, especially if they can't come to convention but even if
> they can.
>
> Also, I really think people in NFB need to relax and realize that not
> every
> blind person has had great training or has the ability to do everything
> independently.  I know ACB has been criticized for having volunteers at
> their convention, and frankly I find that kind of amusing when NFB's
> leadership always has someone going sighted guide with them.  IF it's good
> enough for the leadership, why is it not good enough for the general
> membership?  If you don't want the help, just refuse it, but don't keep
> someone like me from using help that we may need.  On another note, I
> frankly think ACB is better equipped to handle the challenges of the
> future.
> Yes, they can be a bit more demanding than necessary, but I think we as
> blind people are going to have to do more and more of that as time goes
> on.
> NFB's philosophy is too focused on always being independence and this
> whole
> idea of blindness being a nuisance and not that big of a deal.  I'm afraid
> the NFB will suddenly wake up one day when all microwaves and other
> appliances are flat paneled with no way to use them effectively, there are
> no usable telephones, all keyboards are completely touch screen and
> wonder,
> gee how did we get here?  I think I may be exaggerating slightly, but I
> don't think I'm exaggerating as much as some may think.  My only
> consolation
> is that when things start getting worse, we will wake up and disregard
> what
> Kenneth Jernigan said in his speech "the day after civil rights" whenever
> that is, and start fighting again.  I just hope it's not too late.
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 2:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] state con attendance
>
>
>> Ray:
>>
>> Welcome to the way the "other half" lives. Here in Washington, we
>> consider we're doing an outstanding job if we get seventy-five to eighty
>> people at our state banquet. Unlike at national conventions, our
>> banquets are more well attended than are our plenary convention sessions
>> as some convention participants bring guests to the banquet who do not
>> attend the rest of the convention.
>>
>> Of course, part of the problem here in Washington is that, whether we
>> admit it or not, we're still suffering from the organizational split
>> that accompanied the whole Robert Acosta business in the late 1970's
>> when the then-affiliate for Washington was expelled (or chose to leave,
>> depending upon one's viewpoint) and was reorganized. The old affiliate
>> eventually joined ACB so that ACB is considerably larger numerically
>> than is NFB in Washington. In the legislature, however, it is we of NFB
>> who are known for getting things done.
>>
>> AFfiliates east of the Mississippi such as Massachusetts are far larger
>> than are our affiliates out here with the exception of California. WE
>> are, in Shakespeare's terms, "we happy few". But NFB is where the action
>> is.
>>
>> On the original subject, what I see in terms of dwindling convention
>> attendance and grousing about the irrelevance of convention material
>> stems, I believe, from a number of trends in society today. First,
>> society is, in general, much more fragmented than was the case thirty or
>> forty years ago. People move around the country much more often than
>> heretofore and, hence, don't put down roots and make as many lasting
>> local friendships. (When was the last time you attended a "block
>> party"?) They are thus less likely to have great circles of friends --
>> arguably a prerequisit for easy growth of organizations.
>>
>> Second, perhaps because society is more fragmented and because there are
>> more venues of entertainment (cable TV, the Internet, video games and
>> the like), I believe that people are far less likely to be "joiners"
>> then was the case even twenty years ago. There are too many other things
>> competing for their time.
>>
>> Third, I believe that it is fair to say that the 1960's and 1970's were
>> decades of activism. Whatever your thoughts are concerning the war in
>> Iraq, note the vast difference between the small anti-war demonstrations
>> of today and the mass protests against the Vietnam war from 1964 to
>> 1975. WE of NFB, like many other activist organizations, are the victims
>> of the paradigm shift from activism to indifference and (see above) from
>> the paradigm of working to make changes to being entertained.
>>
>> Fourth, I believe that, rightly or wrongly, many young blind people
>> today see all the progress that the blind have made over the previous
>> two generations toward a world of equality with the sighted and conclude
>> that continued progress in this arena is inevitable. Obviously, I
>> disagree with this assessment and, in fact, I am worried that we might
>> be on the verge of slipping backward, making NFB even more of a
>> necessity than it may have been twenty years ago. Couple this with laws
>> mandating provision of services such as DSS offices at universities and
>> this is a recipe for organizational lacitude IMO. I opine that many
>> young people do not recognize that provision of some of these services
>> constitutes a wolf in sheep's clothing and, hence, when they hit the
>> "real world" and encounter businesses that don't automatically provide
>> them with all the high-tech gadgetry they think they need, they
>> interpret the problem as one of discrmination rather than one simply of
>> the way the world works. All this is to say that many blind people of
>> all ages today don't see why they need to gain advocacy skills or pay
>> attention to all the "dull" stuf involving politics or their agencies
>> for the blind. Let "the experts" do it. And while many would agree with
>> us that agency moguls may not be the "experts", some are beginning to
>> see *us* as the "experts",where by "us" I mean NFB leadership. In other
>> words, I'm not sure that the rank-and-file always sees that it has a
>> stake in what's happening or that it really has the power to change
>> things.
>>
>> This problem is not unique to NFB: ACB has it also. The "advantage", if
>> one wishes to call it that, that ACB has is that often its affiliates
>> conduct many more social functions than do NFB affiliates -- at least
>> it's like that out here in the Pacific Northwest. When, for example, was
>> the last time you attended a NFB affiliate convention where a comedian
>> was the featured banquet speaker? It has happend in ACB affiliates out
>> here.
>>
>> Now I would hazard that this sort of fluff is not what we in NFB truly
>> want. But to make changes, we must understand why what we're doing may
>> not always appeal to "the masses" and, therefore, must decide whether we
>> can incorporate other items into our conventions that might gain
>> interest and not cause groans of "same ol' same ol'" while at the same
>> time not betraying our NFB heritage and philosophy.
>>
>> I don't have the answer but I value the discussions as we may
>> collectively come up with ideas that might work for all of us.
>>
>> Mike Freeman, President
>> NFB of Washington
>>
>>  ----- Original Message ----- 
>>  From: Ray Foret Jr
>>  To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>  Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 9:37 AM
>>  Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] state con attendance
>>
>>
>>  Edd, I am floored!!!  Are you truly telling us that at your last New
>>  Hampshire state NFB convention, y'all only had 30 attendees?  Only 30?
>> What
>>  is y'all's membership compared to that number?  I just cannot get my
>> mind
>>  around the idea of y'all putting all that work in to an all day state
>>  convention and having only 30 people there.  Perhaps you might inquire
>> of
>>  your members just what the issues are which cause them not to attend
>> y'all's
>>  convention.  From what I gather, you say in your message that folks
>> were
>>  complaining that the program items were "so so".  If I'm not mistaken,
>> we
>>  usually have over 100 folks at the Louisiana NFB state convention.
>> How
>>  about I forward your message on to Pam Allan and she can maybe suggest
>> what
>>  you might want to consider.
>>
>>  Sincerely yours,
>>  The Constantly Barefooted,
>>  Ray
>>  Home phone and fax:
>>  (985)853-0139
>>  E-mail:
>>  rforetjratbellsouthdotnet
>>  Skype Name:
>>  barefootedray
>>  Blog:
>>  www.raysworld.blogs.com
>>  Podcast .rss Feed:
>>  http://feeds.feedburner.com/worldofray
>>
>>  God bless President George W. Bush!
>>  God bless our troops!
>>  and God bless America
>>  ----- Original Message ----- 
>>  From: "Ed Meskys" <edmeskys at localnet.com>
>>  To: "nfb-talk" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>  Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 10:44 AM
>>  Subject: [nfb-talk] state con attendance
>>
>>
>>  When I first became NH state president in 1988 the first few state
>>  conventions I put on had about 100-120 attendees, up about 20% from
>> the
>>  previous president, because I did a lot of outreach to find former and
>> new
>>  members, and initiated a state newsletter. We had been drifting down
>> ever
>>  since, to under 50. Last year we had our 50th anniversary, and got
>> more
>>  attendees, but with people muttering about our programs being the
>> "same old,
>>  same old." This year we decided to devote our whole morning to a topic
>>  important to blind persons and many others in a rural state, the
>> future of
>>  transportation in NH. We made it a one-day con, with a luncheon
>> banquet, and
>>  the National report, some technology, mobility, and our business
>> meeting in
>>  he afternoon. With the help of Blind Services, the talking book
>> library, the
>>  Governor's Commission on Disabilities, and Granite State Independent
>> Living
>>  (Foundation) we distributed over 2000 flyers, and aside from program
>>  participants we had only 30 attendees. Our officers are very
>> disappointed,
>>  and are saying it cost so much money to put on and advertise the con,
>> and
>>  put in so much work, that we will pull back and only have a business
>> meeting
>>  with lunch in the back room of a restaurant next year. Are other
>> states
>>  having the same problem getting attendance at a con?
>>
>>  We are using an Imagination Grant to put on a one-day tech expo next
>> April,
>>  which is not a convention (cons are normally in October or November).
>> If
>>  this flops too, I think the board will be devastated. We lined up an
>>  excellent panel of five experts and administrators for the
>> transportation
>>  panel, and are working on getting excellent speakers for the tech
>> expo.
>>
>>  Incidentally, the results of our state elections were:
>>  continuing constitutional officers:
>>  Marie Johnson, President
>>  Gil Vickery, FVP.
>>  Judy Leavitt, SVP
>>  Ed Meskys, secretary
>>  Lucille Lynch, treasurer
>>  and our new slate of untitled board positions is:
>>  Julie Clark (new)
>>  Wayne Harvey (new)
>>  Donald Little (new)
>>  John Parker (returning)
>>  Stephen Yerardi (returning)
>>
>>  Best, Ed Meskys
>>
>>
>>  Edmund R. Meskys
>>  NIEKAS Publications
>>  National Federation of the Blind of N.H.
>>  Moultonboro Lions Club
>>  edmeskys at localnet.com
>>  322 Whittier Hwy
>>  Moultonboro NH 03254-3627
>>  my credo:
>>  Clinton lied, nothing happened
>>  Bush lied, thousands died
>>  and over 3,000 permanently brain injured
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  nfb-talk mailing list
>>  nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>  http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
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>>
>>
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