[nfb-talk] NFB centers

[T. Joseph Carter]

Kirk,

Individuals generally don't pay it, your tax dollars and mine do through
vocational rehabilitation and commissions for the blind.  Because many
states offer these services themselves (though rarely at the same quality
as our training centers) and because the amount of money is so great, it
is essentially an uphill battle for many people to make states pay for our
training centers.

We have one advantage here:  If a person qualifies for a training center,
they have a right to choose which one they attend.  Nobody's going to tell
you about that right, but you have it.  Of course, there have been a few
reports of agencies determining that a residential training center is not
required after they discover that the client will exercise their right to
choose an NFB center.  I've also personally seen myself that states can
determine "successful completion" of your training long before it is
actually complete.

As with anything else, we do what we can.  There are many avenues by which
these agencies can be convinced to do the right thing.  In my case, my
agency believed the skills I had received to be sufficient and decided
that my program would be cut short by a month.  In order to finish gaining
the skills I needed in certain areas, I had to throw the daily schedule
out the window and work on whatever I still needed to learn.

For most, getting there is the major battle.  Once we get there, the time
we have is used as well as it can be.  We can do a lot with a few weeks.
More can be done in a few months.  A whole lot can be done in the usual
six to nine months.


On Sun, Dec 16, 2007 at 08:53:59AM -0500, Kirk Harmon wrote:
> I guess, being a Veteran, I have been trained by the Government. I have 
> never needed for assistance or support since I lost my sight thru their 
> training program. I also don't have the concern of financial aide like the 
> civilian community. After saying that, I can't see how people can afford the 
> $30,000 that is necessary or the 6 months required for complete training 
> thru the centers. I know that if I had to leave my family for 6 months of 
> training, I would hope that they would be their when I returned! LOL! I am 
> not saying that the complete training that you are recommending is not the 
> best way to go, not all peoples can afford this expensive program offered! 
> but rather that some optional rehab training does in fact work for many 
> quite efficiently. Kirk,-- Original Message ----- 
> From: "David Evans" <drevans at bellsouth.net>
> To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2007 4:30 PM
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB centers
> 
> 
> > Ear Kirk,
> >
> > There may be eye conditions that should not or will not likely get worst,
> > but that is not the point.  If the money is going to be spent to train
> > someone, who is blind or "vision impaired," then they should be taught as 
> > if
> > they are totally blind.  Giving anyone less than the best is short 
> > changing
> > them.
> > The object is to learn blindness skills and not to water it down by
> > pandering to the fact that someone still has some vision today.  Tomorrow 
> > is
> > another day.
> > If they have the training to use them blindness skills, it will not matter
> > if they have or lose their limited vision later.  They can always use what
> > they have left after they complete the training.  The point is they have
> > gotten it all the first time around.
> > As I said, funds are going to become restricted and people are not going 
> > to
> > be allowed a second bite at the apple in the future.
> >
> > David Evans, NFBF
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> > Behalf Of Kirk Harmon
> > Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2007 9:51 AM
> > To: NFB Talk Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB centers
> >
> > Dave, I agree with most of what you have said, however, I was trained else
> > where. I have never had nothing but good things come from my training! If
> > you and I would of been walking down that same street, I too, would of
> > noticed that the manhole cover was not covered by my cane as well! They
> > taught me mobility quite well! I  use my Rehab training every day, and 
> > have
> > for 11 years. Now, after saying that the other issues you bring up as far 
> > as
> >
> > population expansion and such, yes, it makes perfect since to train thru 
> > the
> >
> > total blind format. I am just trying to say that their are some eye issues
> > that will not get any worse and are trained quite adequately! Kirk
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "David Evans" <drevans at bellsouth.net>
> > To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> > Sent: Friday, December 14, 2007 10:31 PM
> > Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB centers
> >
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> >> Behalf Of Sherri
> >>
> >> Reply from David Evans.
> >> Dear Kirk,
> >>
> >> The reason that NFB training and philosophy is as good as it is, is
> >> because
> >> it teaches blindness skills from the worst case condition.  This teaches
> >> you
> >> to depend upon the skills and not the remaining vision.  Obviously, after
> >> you leave the training center, you have the option of using your 
> >> remaining
> >> vision to what ever degree you want, but you have already developed the
> >> skills that are going to really help you and keep you safe.  Your
> >> remaining
> >> vision can fool you and misled you, but the skills are always true.
> >>
> >> There is going to be a push in rehab training to only give people "one
> >> bite
> >> at the apple."
> >> For too many years, rehab has been a revolving door where each time a
> >> person's vision changed, they would come back for more training to adjust
> >> all over again.  This points up that rehab training has been pandering to
> >> training people in a limited fashion based on remaining vision instead of
> >> embedding good skills of blindness.
> >> The rising number of Blind people, because of the baby boomers, is going
> >> to
> >> soar the cost and cause a log jam in training.
> >> This means that people needing rehab are only going to be allowed to
> >> attend
> >> a training center one time only.
> >> What do you think we should do about the situation in light of this
> >> information?
> >> We need to make sure that the first time is going to be enough.  That
> >> means
> >> that we need to train people how to operate as a totally blind person and
> >> not as a partly sighted person because this teaches the person to depend
> >> on
> >> the blindness skills and not to depend on the remaining vision that can 
> >> go
> >> away tomorrow.
> >> NFB training is the key and will likely be the only way rehab maybe 
> >> taught
> >> one day.
> >> This reluctance to not train using the sleep shades is understandable, 
> >> but
> >> is based in the human fear of total vision loss.
> >> I will likely not convince everyone that the NFB way is the right way or
> >> the
> >> best way because the fear of being totally blind is so strong in some
> >> people.  This shows how great the need is for good blindness adjustment
> >> training and grounding in a good positive NFB philosophy.
> >> Those that have gone through the NFB training need not worry about their
> >> skills and their ability to adapt and overcome.  They know that any
> >> remaining vision can go away tomorrow, but their great NFB blindness
> >> skills
> >> will still be there.  Your remaining vision can be fooled, I know as mine
> >> has fooled me lots of times, but my blindness skills are always true to
> >> me.
> >> My vision has told me that there was nothing there and lied to me.  My
> >> cane
> >> always tells me the truth, if I am using it as I have been taught.  My
> >> remaining vision saw the dark shape of a manhole on the ground and I
> >> assumed
> >> it was covered because my vision spotted the dark shape and my mine
> >> dismissed it.  My vision did not pick out anything out of the normal with
> >> the shape.  It's a manhole location, forget it.  That is when my cane tip
> >> swept across the cover and fell in; someone had pulled it up and rolled
> >> the
> >> cover away.  My remaining vision lied to me, but my skill of blindness
> >> saved
> >> me from injury or death.  Which would you rather depend on?  Remaining
> >> Vision that can fool you and may go away or a skill and way of doing
> >> things
> >> that will always be there for you?  You pick!
> >>
> >> Have a Happy Holidays.
> >>
> >>
> >> David Evans, NFBF
> >>
> >> Sent: Friday, December 14, 2007 5:50 AM
> >> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
> >> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB centers
> >>
> >> That's fine, using residual vision, I mean, but at least you have the
> >> training and confidence that a totally blind person has. From people I
> >> have
> >> talked to, because the VA centers train you with whatever vision you 
> >> have,
> >> if your vision changes, you then have to go back for more training. I
> >> would
> >> think the NFB Center's training makes sense, as it would not so much
> >> require
> >>
> >> repeat. The thing David left out also is that you attend many classes
> >> where
> >> blindness and adjustment to such is discussed.
> >>
> >> Sherri
> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
> >> From: "Kirk Harmon" <kvh54 at cfl.rr.com>
> >> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> >> Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 4:37 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB centers
> >>
> >>
> >> David, I have to say that I went thru blind rehab thru another
> >> organization
> >> and their mobility instructors evaluated everyone individually. If they
> >> were
> >> legally blind they were tested for how much vision they had to enhance
> >> their
> >> mobility to get around, if they were total, then of course, they were
> >> trained as such. To me by training everyone that comes thru the door for
> >> blind rehab as totally blind individuals, it is like having someone that
> >> is
> >> in need of crutches that he needs to learn how to train on a wheelchair. 
> >> I
> >> feel that all people are different and should be evaluate as such. I am
> >> not
> >> by any means suggesting that the NFB change it's rehabilitation training
> >> techniques, however, I think that once a Legally Blind individual goes
> >> thru
> >> total blind rehab, if they have different degrees of blindness when they
> >> leave that they would, in a very short time, go back to using it. This is
> >> just one persons evaluation and input. Kirk Harmon!
> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
> >> From: "David Evans" <drevans at bellsouth.net>
> >> To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> >> Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 4:13 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB centers
> >>
> >>
> >>> Dear RJ,
> >>>
> >>> The primary difference between the NFB Centers, and other rehab centers,
> >>> is
> >>> that the NFB uses "full emergence" techniques training methods that use
> >>> sleep shade training to prevent you from using any remaining vision as a
> >>> crutch.
> >>> You wear the sleep shades all day for everything, mobility, independent
> >>> living, computer training, and cooking, cleaning, Braille and
> >>> pre-employment
> >>> skills.  In short, everything you do.
> >>> The reasoning behind this is so that you learn to depend on learning 
> >>> good
> >>> skills of blindness and not on using any remaining vision to cheat, as
> >>> most
> >>> of us do.
> >>> This builds a very deep sense of self confidence and helps to develop
> >>> better
> >>> problem solving skills.
> >>> You grow, as a blind person, by stretching your self by facing up to the
> >>> challenge.  Even a turtle doesn't get anywhere until he sticks his neck
> >>> out.
> >>> As a student and a NFB center, your are taught all of the basic 
> >>> blindness
> >>> skills under sleep shades and then must perform certain task, using 
> >>> those
> >>> skills in order to graduate.
> >>> After receiving mobility training and being taught the general area, 
> >>> they
> >>> will take you out in a van, under sleep shades, get you twisted around
> >>> and
> >>> drop you off somewhere on the street.  You will then have to orient
> >>> yourself, figure out where you are by using your skills and navigate
> >>> yourself back to the campus.  They observe you from a distance, for your
> >>> safety, but do not interfere unless absolutely needed.  This test is
> >>> often
> >>> a
> >>> pivotal moment in a Blind students life.  A place where they have to 
> >>> make
> >>> a
> >>> decision about themselves.  They can sit there for hours and think about
> >>> it
> >>> or get up and use the skills they have learned to get back to the 
> >>> campus.
> >>> Some students feel scared during this test.  It causes them to question
> >>> themselves as to how confident they are in their mobility skill.  There
> >>> is
> >>> nothing like the feeling of being disoriented and lost to get you to get
> >>> in
> >>> touch with your inter self.  It places a mental and psychological 
> >>> barrier
> >>> there that you are forced to confront.  Getting pass that barrier can be
> >>> the
> >>> most liberating experience in your live according to the students I have
> >>> talked to.  In that moment, you have to make a decision as to which side
> >>> of
> >>> the fence you are going to be on.
> >>> Students are also expected to take part in other activities like skiing,
> >>> back packing, rock climbing or maybe even white water rafting, unless
> >>> they
> >>> have a medical condition that prevents them.  The students are 
> >>> encouraged
> >>> to
> >>> do everything that other people do, such as going out to dinner in town,
> >>> the
> >>> movies, and the fair, shopping, church and even community service
> >>> projects.
> >>> This is the point of the testing and the training, to make you a well
> >>> rounded person.     This is why, many people refer to NFB trained
> >>> students
> >>> as members of the "super Blind."
> >>> Not because they are super powered, but because they are super trained,
> >>> have
> >>> the great blindness skills and confidence in themselves and have learned
> >>> to
> >>> believe in the power of blind people.
> >>> For graduation from the independent living course.  You will have to go
> >>> to
> >>> the store and shop for all of the fixings for a small group of people.
> >>> You
> >>> will have to use your mobility skills to go to the store and back, your
> >>> training in shopping skills in finding and purchasing the goods, bring
> >>> them
> >>> all back to the center and totally prepare and cook the meal and serve 
> >>> it
> >>> to
> >>> the other students.
> >>> The other classes are handled in a similar fashion.
> >>> The students are also expected to take part in community activities 
> >>> which
> >>> include traveling to a national convention for the experience and fun of
> >>> meeting so many other blind people.
> >>> Most everyone makes it through the center.
> >>> The training is designed to not only build good blindness skills you can
> >>> depend on, but to instill in you a positive philosophy and sense of your
> >>> own
> >>> self confidence and ability to problem solve.
> >>> The training is not easy and the people are not going to pander to the
> >>> students.  They are going to train and mold the student into the best
> >>> blind
> >>> person they can be or want to be.  This is boot camp for the blind.  The
> >>> military doesn't make sure that a raw recruit has his or her teddy bear
> >>> and
> >>> security blanket or tuck them in at night.  If you have a problem with
> >>> something, the NFB staff will sit down and talk with you.  The other
> >>> students are encouraged to help one another and speak their mind about
> >>> things.  They commonly ask "why" as to the reason certain things are
> >>> taught
> >>> the way they are such as the wearing of sleep shades.
> >>> The wearing of the shades forces a person to depend on and learn to
> >>> heighten
> >>> their other blindness skills and learn to depend on those sharper skills
> >>> which, in turn, builds great self confidence.  This self confidence and
> >>> great skills set will make a difference in your life.  The training also
> >>> forces you to think about yourself and what you believe in.  It helps 
> >>> you
> >>> to
> >>> search your sole and, hopefully, make the changes in your habits and 
> >>> mind
> >>> set through the NFB philosophy.
> >>>
> >>> As to limits placed on students that attend such centers the rules are
> >>> about
> >>> the same everywhere. They are responsible for your safety and until they
> >>> know more about you and know that you are safe, mature and responsible,
> >>> they
> >>> are going to keep you on a short leash.  You earn the ability to travel
> >>> off
> >>> campus as part of the training process and even encouraged to travel off
> >>> campus as part of the training.  After all, would your parents let you
> >>> run
> >>> around, unsupervised when you were a small child?    Often the students
> >>> are
> >>> young and don't have the judgment skills of an older adult.  Some would
> >>> use
> >>> this "freedom" to just go and get drunk, screw around, get into trouble
> >>> and
> >>> maybe get hurt somewhere.  Being hung over or missing classes because 
> >>> you
> >>> stayed out all night is a sure sign of immaturity on the part of a
> >>> student.
> >>> The instructors are there to teach, not to be your nursemaid.  You tow
> >>> the
> >>> line or you go home.
> >>> As for quiet hours, I would say that everyone has them to some degree.
> >>> Learning common courtesy for others is also a learned skill.  Other
> >>> students
> >>> maybe studying, reading, working on the computer or just trying to 
> >>> sleep.
> >>> Learning when it is appropriate to be a bit quiet is a learned social
> >>> skill
> >>> and one that not all blind people learn.
> >>> I have had roommates who would go out drinking and come back into the
> >>> room
> >>> several times to wake me up just to tell me the bar closed at 2:00 AM 
> >>> and
> >>> they were going to an all night bar up the street.  Then they would come
> >>> back in, and wake me up, by turning on the TV set at a loud volume, and
> >>> then
> >>> lay there making bus reservations for nearly 2 hours, talking loudly on
> >>> the
> >>> phone.  They would then sleep in come morning and miss half the day's
> >>> activities at the convention.  This person was not trained in a NFB
> >>> center
> >>> and I will never room with them again.   they were not the best example
> >>> of
> >>> what a good blind person could be.
> >>> As the public judges us based on their preconceived notions, which type
> >>> of
> >>> blind person do you want setting the bar for the rest of us to be judged
> >>> by
> >>> society?  The dirty bum blind guy selling the pencils in a tin cup or
> >>> someone who shows confidence in themselves and their skills?  The 
> >>> General
> >>> Public is going to judge us all by the best and the worst example they
> >>> have
> >>> seen.  You pick.
> >>>
> >>> David Evans, NFBF.
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
> >>> On
> >>> Behalf Of GMail
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 10:36 PM
> >>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
> >>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB centers
> >>>
> >>> Much different than that. I couldn't explain all of it to you, but what
> >>> you
> >>> are talking about is nonexistent. From what I understand, you are free 
> >>> to
> >>> go
> >>>
> >>> where you please, and you expected to work, unlike some of the centers.
> >>> They
> >>>
> >>> are very challenging, but it's very beneficial. I'm sure I haven't said
> >>> everything. Perhaps someone who's been to one will be able to tell you.
> >>> ----- Original Message ----- 
> >>> From: "RJ Sandefur" <rjs59 at hotmail.com>
> >>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 9:53 PM
> >>> Subject: [nfb-talk] NFB centers
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> What are NFB centers like? I've been to a rehabiliation center, and it
> >>> was
> >>> a
> >>>
> >>> bad experience. We had "quiet hours," which we had to observe, and in
> >>> order
> >>> to go off campus, a student needed a mobility clearence. David, I'm
> >>> talking
> >>> about the center in daytona Florida! RJ
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> ----
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
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> >>>>
> >>>
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