[nfb-talk] Messages Coming Through Twice

Donna atagal at tbaytel.net
Mon Aug 13 09:18:13 CDT 2007


I think the list is some what acting up.  I have been getting some double 
messages and it isn't to things that I have replied to.   Plus I have been 
getting some messages that I write bounced so something is going on that 
isn't quite right.

I am sending this via the list by just using "reply"

Donna

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
To: <mabullis at hotmail.com>; "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 9:26 AM
Subject: [nfb-talk] Messages Coming Through Twice


> Mike and Mary Ellen,
>
> My guess is that people are responding to you by doing a reply to all. 
> This causes you to get a copy of their response sent directly to you and 
> and then you also get
> it through the list.  I haven't observed double messages in general. 
> People get into the habbit of doing this sometimes because some lists are 
> set up so that a reply
> only goes to the person but a reply to all results in a copy automatically 
> going to the list.  When the reply to all is used, the author really 
> should take a look to see
> where it is going and delete the addresses that are not necessary, but 
> people tend to be lazy about these things.
>
> On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 09:06:10 -0400, Michael Bullis wrote:
>
>>It's been happening for about the last week.  I don't know.
>>Mike
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>Behalf Of Mary Ellen Sanchez
>>Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 8:12 AM
>>To: 'Laura Eaves'; 'NFB Talk Mailing List'
>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Blind Parents and Divorce
>
>>Hello if I may ask how come messages come through twice at times?  I hope
>>everyone is doing well.
>>Your Friend,
>>Mary.
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>Behalf Of Laura Eaves
>>Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 2:15 PM
>>To: mabullis at hotmail.com; NFB Talk Mailing List
>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Blind Parents and Divorce
>
>>Hi Mike -- thanks for the offer -- you know, as a physically challenged
>>person, I still do run into the same attitudes I have run into all my life
>>-- but you know, I think one's own attitude is the most important.  As 
>>with
>>anything in life, if you let yourself get uncentered or unglued so that 
>>you
>>start making mistakes because of it, you are indeed in sorry shape.  And
>>because I said "you" doesn't mean that excludes "me".  For example, 
>>growing
>>up I had a hard time accepting some of the realities of life, even though 
>>I
>>steeled myself to go through school and work and all and found myself
>>reacting to others' opinions of me -- but when I stepped back to look in 
>>the
>>mirror (figuratively I mean) what I saw were some attitudes of my own that 
>>I
>>was reacting to.  In short, what we react against in others is somethings 
>>a
>>little part of our own makeup we are reacting to.  I thought I had a 
>>handle
>>on my disability becauase I went ahead and did things, and this got me
>>through school and working, which was a good thing, but I can't help but
>>wonder how much easier it would have been not to be so reactive in my
>>emotions to what other people were saying and doing.
>>Anyway, just some thoughts.  I'm at a point in my life now where I'm being
>>faced by possible "custodial" care, which being an nfb-er I am opposed 
>>to --
>>and I am tired of battling but sometimes battling wise and battling smart
>>can get you further than the brute force, do or die approach.
>>I am not a young person (on the outside) and have a few more fears now 
>>that
>>come with age, and am blessed to have supports available as a safety net,
>>but I really don't want the hospital if I can avoid it. I am not ashamed 
>>to
>>say I am on disability right now.  I earned the insurance, but a very big
>>part of me feels I am setting a bad precedent for those who come after me
>>who might have the same challenges.  Everyone is different though in the
>>challenges they face, and I truely believe it is not ours to judge people
>>for being in assisted living -- but i still miss working in many respects
>>(not the stupid office politics of course, but the feeling of having a 
>>place
>>to go where I can contribute.
>>Anyway, sorry for the avalanche of personal feelings.  I just am trying to
>>connect to anyone who can relate and perhaps get some feedback that would
>>help me as I hope my comments might occasionally help someone else.
>
>>Cheers and good luck to everyone.
>>--le
>
>
>
>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Michael Bullis" <mabullis at hotmail.com>
>>To: "'Laura Eaves'" <leaves1 at carolina.rr.com>; "'NFB Talk Mailing List'"
>><nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 10:36 AM
>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Blind Parents and Divorce
>
>
>>Hi laura:
>>It's great to hear from you.  I've gotten a sense from time to time that
>>you're involved in your own set of challenges that leave you frustrated by
>>the attitudes of others.  If you ever wish to share, please don't hesitate
>>to email or call.
>>410-323-4884
>>Mike
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>Behalf Of Laura Eaves
>>Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 3:15 PM
>>To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Blind Parents and Divorce
>
>>Hey Mike, I have been silent on this issue so far as marriage and 
>>therefore
>>divorce has been out of the realm of my experience and therefore I have 
>>felt
>>ill equipped to give counsel, but I join in everyone else's applause and
>>encouragement at the centered approach you are taking and wish you and 
>>your
>>daughter--and also her mother as she is in the mix -- a positive outcome.
>>Whatever happens it sounds as if your heart is right and therefore your
>>pursuit of your rights can only be good for all concerned -- but i do hope
>>that the ultimate result is to get the custody you desire and that people
>>can live together amicably.
>>I am fighting my own internal and external battle right now that I may 
>>post
>>on later--it of course does not involve a spouse or children, but my own
>>living situation.  I am therefore encouraged by reading your (Mike's)
>>attitude and hope to keep that centered approach myself as I proceed.
>>You are right that family can be both your best friends and your worst
>>obstacle to independence. I am wheelchair bound in addition to being blind
>>and therefore have an added challenge, but hopefully I can solve this
>>problem in the best way possible.
>>Anyway, good luck and I hope to hear some good news for you and your
>>situation!
>>--le
>
>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Alan Wheeler" <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 8:45 AM
>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Blind Parents and Divorce
>
>
>>I agree, this is an awesome message, Mike.
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Cindy Handel" <cindy425 at verizon.net>
>>To: <mabullis at hotmail.com>; "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 5:52 AM
>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Blind Parents and Divorce
>
>
>>> Mike,
>>>
>>> Congratulations!  This is a great message.  I know it will still be
>>> difficult, but you really do have a purpose, now.  You've found yourself
>>> again and I'm glad you're going to let the court and your wife know just
>>> who
>>> you are...your daughter's father, who has as much right to spend time 
>>> with
>>> her and raise her as her mother does.  I hope things go well for you.
>>>
>>> Cindy
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Michael Bullis" <mabullis at hotmail.com>
>>> To: <william.ritchhart at sbcglobal.net>; "'NFB Talk Mailing List'"
>>> <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 9:51 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Blind Parents and Divorce
>>>
>>>
>>> I've spent a lot of time with this subject in the past week, sort of
>>> having
>>> my own personal epiphany in the process.  Each of you, in your own way 
>>> has
>>> given me a different perspective which I had to mold into who I am.  I
>>> knew
>>> that much of the situation was in my power to change but I had to figure
>>> out
>>> how to do it from my center, not from a weak or wobbly foundation.
>>>
>>> Virtually every day, we as people who are blind must quietly smile or
>>> cringe
>>> at the misunderstandings of others.  If we are to angry we alienate 
>>> them.
>>> If we to quickly give in, we perpetuate the very misunderstandings we're
>>> trying to change.  It's a long and often tortuous walk we take, 
>>> balancing
>>> how much others misunderstand with our desire to live normal
>>> lives--compromising here and there and not in other places.  In the
>>> process
>>> of recognizing the ignorance of others we also must each recognize how
>>> much
>>> we ourselves still have to learn.  As it stands, in the first part of 
>>> the
>>> 21st century, we still are daily amazed by the accomplishments of people
>>> who
>>> are blind, often saying to ourselves, "I would have never tried that." 
>>> At
>>> the same time we are amazed, we are equally appalled by how often
>>> blindness
>>> becomes a personal tragedy for others and how they allow it to become
>>> their
>>> own self created hell.  Both of those blind people--the hero and the
>>> victim
>>> live within each of us more than we would probably like or wish to 
>>> admit.
>>>
>>> In this loss of a marriage, I have tried to balance misunderstanding 
>>> with
>>> humility, always trying to educate and at the same time trying to be who 
>>> I
>>> am and to push against that same misunderstanding.
>>>
>>> I began to realize how far I had gotten out of balance when I said to a
>>> friend recently that even if I won the court fight I would feel as 
>>> though
>>> I
>>> had lost.  Why?  Because, in the process of compromising--allowing home
>>> inspections, agreeing to supervised visits, agreeing to not take my 
>>> child
>>> outside the house without permission, I had given up some central part 
>>> of
>>> me.  It has come to me over the last days that in this case at least, I
>>> have
>>> compromised what I can, to no effect and must now begin to take back my
>>> personal dignity, not in an angry way, but rather in a calm and 
>>> forthright
>>> manner.
>>>
>>> Since there is no rationality to any of the compromises, I have decided 
>>> to
>>> quietly but respectfully decline them all.  I will go to court and 
>>> present
>>> exactly the same visitation and custody terms as they would get from any
>>> other normal parent.  If my wife or the court want to argue the matter I
>>> am
>>> prepared to have people come and talk about the competencies of people 
>>> who
>>> are blind and, my own competencies where necessary.  I will no longer
>>> shuffle and grovel, hoping to please.  If, in the end, I lose I will do 
>>> it
>>> as a man.  If I win, I will do it as one who has respect for all those 
>>> who
>>> got me here.
>>>
>>> Perhaps the time has come to simply say no and mean it.  Obviously, I 
>>> will
>>> follow the courts dictates, but I won't help them make any such dictates
>>> if
>>> they mean treating me less than a fully competent parent.  I feel
>>> strangely
>>> at peace with this decision and, although I know there are those who 
>>> will
>>> say that they might take another approach, I must do what gives me peace
>>> and
>>> dignity.
>>>
>>> Thanks to all of you for your help.  You have given me what I needed in
>>> order to move forward, comfort, encouragement and a much-needed heart to
>>> heart conversation with myself about what lives at the center of my 
>>> being.
>>> I said in the beginning that this was about my daughter Julianna and I
>>> believe she will respect and love her father one day for being his own
>>> person and speaking with dignity and clarity.  What I have confused 
>>> along
>>> the way is the difference between visitation by my daughter with her
>>> father,
>>> and visitation by my daughter with half a man.  I choose to be a whole
>>> man.
>>>
>>> Dr. Maurer and I spoke this afternoon and he says the NFB will help in 
>>> any
>>> way it can.  Even if we had won the case before we would have really won
>>> nothing accept the half victories we must often live with.  Now, I think
>>> we
>>> can win a real victory that advances who blind people are.  And even
>>> though
>>> we may not win, at least we'll be fighting for what we want, instead of
>>> what
>>> we can live with.
>>>
>>> Thanks for everything folks.  It's been a long and very difficult soul
>>> searching process for me.  In some ways I'm glad the other side didn't
>>> settle prior to now, because I would have had a solution without my soul
>>> in
>>> it.  I will now take charge of my/our Attorneys in a much different way.
>>> This case is about whether a blind man can be a co-equal parent in his
>>> child's life.  That is the rock on which I now stand and from which I 
>>> will
>>> only be removed by force.
>>> Mike Bullis
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of Wm. Ritchhart
>>> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 6:30 PM
>>> To: 'NFB Talk Mailing List'
>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Blind Parents and Divorce
>>>
>>> Exactly correct!  Mike needs a lawyer.  From the original post, the bulk
>>> of
>>> the problem is blindness.  There are other issues.  But those can be 
>>> dealt
>>> with.
>>>
>>> Mike, you need to fight.  Your daughter is unable to speak.  You need to
>>> do
>>> whatever you can to stay in her life.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> William
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>> On Behalf Of Mike Freeman
>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 11:40 PM
>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Blind Parents and Divorce
>>>
>>> Cindy:
>>>
>>> With great respect, I disagree with you. Going to the press would be the
>>>
>>> *last* thing Mike should do. It would only cause her lawyer to pull
>>> something worse.
>>>
>>> Divorces are almost always messy and, frankly, the process is often
>>> irrational at best. Sadly, justice is not always the outcome.
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>>  ----- Original Message -----
>>>  From: Cindy Handel
>>>  To: mabullis at hotmail.com ; NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>  Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 1:51 PM
>>>  Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Blind Parents and Divorce
>>>
>>>
>>>  Mike,
>>>
>>>  It's very sad when things like this have to go to the press.  But, I
>>> think
>>>  you're right, in your case.  She isn't being reasonable and, despite
>>> your
>>>  willingness to try to work with her, she's determined not to allow you
>>>
>>> the
>>>  access, you deserve, to your daughter.  You're right...mothers have
>>> the
>>>  advantage when it comes to children.  It shouldn't be that way.  The
>>> father
>>>  is expected to be there, financially, but beyond that, it doesn't seem
>>>
>>> to
>>>  matter, and that's just wrong.  Your daughter needs you in her life,
>>> and I
>>>  think you should take every opportunity to be there.  If that means
>>> going
>>>  public, I think you should do that.  I'm truly sorry your wife has
>>> such a
>>>  mindset against blindness that she was unwilling to learn from you,
>>> during
>>>  the time you were together.  She has her parents supporting her wrong
>>>  thinking, so something has to be done to break through, even if it
>>> means you
>>>  need to be as nasty as she's been.
>>>
>>>  I'm not a parent, but as someone else said, it hurt to read your
>>> original
>>>  message.  I hope things begin to go your way.
>>>
>>>  Cindy
>>>  ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>  From: "Michael Bullis" <mabullis at hotmail.com>
>>>  To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>  Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 2:09 PM
>>>  Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Blind Parents and Divorce
>>>
>>>
>>>  Thanks Ray.  I'll hang in there.  You're certainly right when you say
>>> that
>>>  my self image is suffering.  Somehow I have to move this into a forum
>>> in
>>>  which the truth will be told.  That probably means the press at this
>>> point
>>>  because money for lawyers isn't there.  Thanks for your encouragement.
>>>  Mike
>>>
>>>  -----Original Message-----
>>>  From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>
>>> On
>>>  Behalf Of Ray Foret Jr
>>>  Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 8:53 AM
>>>  To: mabullis at hotmail.com; NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>  Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Blind Parents and Divorce
>>>
>>>  mike, quite frankly, it hurt to read your original message.  But you
>>> see,
>>>  your pain is our pain also.  What effects one of us effects us all.
>>> Your
>>>  situation is; in my humble opinion, well worth our resources.  I fear
>>> your
>>>  adversary has perhaps subconsciously been so attacking you as a blind
>>> person
>>>  so hard that in the deepest recesses of your academic mind, she's got
>>> you
>>>  questioning your self worth.  I suspect, though, that in the deepest
>>> part of
>>>  your soul and spirit, you know better.  Time for you to come down off
>>> the
>>>  fence and solidly defend yourself.  Yes, that means using ALL of the
>>>  resources at your disposal.  Yes, technically, the NFB deals primarily
>>>
>>> with
>>>  blindness issues; and, as cindy said, "It does seem, however, that
>>> this is
>>>  largely due to your blindness.  Your X-wife has a basic distrust of
>>>  blindness".  The long and the short of it seems to be that your x wife
>>>  doesn't think you can do anything because you're blind.  In the
>>> federation,
>>>  we care about the whole person, not just the not just whether the
>>> person is
>>>  blind or not; at least, that's how I've always felt about us.  When
>>> ever one
>>>  of us feels pain, we all feel it.  All too often, it's our very own
>>> families
>>>  which are the cause of this pain.  You did right coming to us with
>>> your
>>>  burden.  We'll help you bare it as much as possible.  Hang in there.
>>> Don't
>>>  give up!!!
>>>
>>>  Sincerely yours,
>>>  The Constantly Barefooted,
>>>  Ray
>>>  Home phone and fax:
>>>  (985)853-0139
>>>  E-mail:
>>>  rforetjratbellsouthdotnet
>>>  Skype Name:
>>>  barefootedray
>>>  Blog:
>>>  www.raysworld.blogs.com
>>>  Podcast .rss Feed:
>>>  http://feeds.feedburner.com/worldofray
>>>
>>>  God bless President George W. Bush!
>>>  God bless our troops!
>>>  and God bless America
>>>  ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>  From: "Michael Bullis" <mabullis at hotmail.com>
>>>  To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>  Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 7:20 AM
>>>  Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Blind Parents and Divorce
>>>
>>>
>>>  Hi Cindy:
>>>  I really don't disagree with Sherri at all.  I just see both points of
>>>
>>> view.
>>>  That's always been my greatest strength and greatest weakness.  In
>>> this case
>>>  I lack enough objectivity to decisively say how it should all be done.
>>>
>>> I'm
>>>  also hesitant to think that my particular problem is worth the
>>> resources of
>>>  others, particularly when I created that problem.  Thanks again for
>>> your
>>>  encouragement and help.  Perhaps out of all of this will come some
>>> good.
>>>  Mike
>>>
>>>  -----Original Message-----
>>>  From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>
>>> On
>>>  Behalf Of Cindy Handel
>>>  Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 6:45 AM
>>>  To: mabullis at hotmail.com; NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>  Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Blind Parents and Divorce
>>>
>>>  Mike,
>>>
>>>  I read your original message and Sherry's response.  I tend to agree
>>> with
>>>  her, but can see your position, too, that there are many more things,
>>> other
>>>  than blindness, involved.  I feel very badly for you and wish you the
>>> best.
>>>  It does seem, however, that this is largely due to your blindness.
>>> Your
>>>  X-wife has a basic distrust of blindness...she doesn't want to believe
>>>
>>> that
>>>  you can do things as well as she can.  So, she's creating barriers,
>>> which
>>>  really don't exist.  I wish there was something you could do to change
>>>
>>> her
>>>  view of blindness, but that really doesn't seem likely.I do realize
>>> that the
>>>  NFB's resources are limited.  But, I do hope you can get some help.
>>> The
>>>  custody issue  does seem to be largely about blindness.  I'm really
>>> very
>>>  sorry for you.
>>>
>>>  Cindy
>>>  ----- Original Message -----
>>>  From: "Michael Bullis" <mabullis at hotmail.com>
>>>  To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>  Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 6:03 AM
>>>  Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Blind Parents and Divorce
>>>
>>>
>>>  Hi Sherri:
>>>  Thanks so much for your suggestions and personal encouragement.  At
>>> times
>>>  like this it means a lot to me.
>>>
>>>  Yes, Dr. Maurer is familiar with the situation.  It's difficult
>>> though.  As
>>>  I tried to indicate in the email, NFB is able to help with blindness
>>> related
>>>  costs and I am very grateful for that.  Unfortunately, in a divorce
>>> with an
>>>  aggressive lawyer, much isn't related to divorce.  Much is simply
>>> related to
>>>  virtually any act or deed one might have ever engaged in that made the
>>>
>>> other
>>>  party upset.  For example.  There is an opportunity in every case for
>>> both
>>>  sides to ask questions of one another about virtually anything.  There
>>>
>>> are
>>>  standard questions which mostly relate to finances and then there are
>>>  questions that relate to the cause of the divorce.
>>>
>>>  My wife responded to what I thought were fairly simple questions in
>>> order to
>>>  understand our relative financial situations with seven thousand pages
>>>
>>> of
>>>  so-called evidence.  It was completely unorganized and for all I know,
>>>
>>> it
>>>  still is.  My lawyer, being conscientious, had to go through the
>>> entire
>>>  seven thousand pages and evaluate it page by page for it's relevance
>>> to the
>>>  divorce.  That costs tons of money.
>>>
>>>  I'm not sure we want NFB to pay for such brutal and pointless tactics.
>>>
>>> As I
>>>  also indicated, I am accused of many things, which, though they're
>>> taken out
>>>  of context and frankly irrelevant, they must each be dealt with as the
>>>  accusations they represent.  This case, in terms of my personal legal
>>> fees
>>>  has cost me about $17,000.  The NFB has spent $3,400 or there abouts.
>>>  Before it is over, my costs will double or triple, which I simply
>>> can't
>>>  afford.
>>>
>>>  In a broader sense though, I'm not sure I want the money of NFB's
>>> members
>>>  used to defend such irrelevant accusations.  Dr. Maurer has to make
>>> tough
>>>  decisions like these and I don't envy him the task.  Not all things in
>>>
>>> life
>>>  are simple and this is, unfortunately, one of them.
>>>  Mike
>>>
>>>  -----Original Message-----
>>>  From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>
>>> On
>>>  Behalf Of Sherri
>>>  Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 2:25 AM
>>>  To: mabullis at hotmail.com; NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>  Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Blind Parents and Divorce
>>>
>>>  Michael,
>>>
>>>  Though you say that much of this situation does not have to do with
>>>  blindness or rather with your ex-wife's problems with your blindness,
>>> it
>>>  really does. I would still think the NFB would support you in your
>>> desire to
>>>  get more liberal visitation with your daughter.
>>>
>>>  Have you sent this e-mail to President Maurer? If so, what is his
>>> opinion?
>>>  Perhaps Barbara Cheadle would be a good person to talk with about your
>>>  situation.
>>>
>>>  I have known several blind fathers who have primary custody of their
>>>  children. One of these got custody of his little boy when the child
>>> was an
>>>  infant, because his wife walked out on them. He had to jump through a
>>> lot of
>>>  hoops for it to happen though.
>>>
>>>  You seem to be a very caring and devoted father who has made the
>>> mistake, as
>>>  I have, of thinking that people are decent and will play by your
>>> rules. Not
>>>  true!
>>>
>>>  I hope you have success and will get good advice about how to deal
>>> with your
>>>  problem. Know that you were there for your daughter when she was
>>> little and
>>>  she will always love you no matter what.
>>>
>>>
>>>  ----- Original Message -----
>>>  From: "Michael Bullis" <mabullis at hotmail.com>
>>>  To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>  Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 8:43 PM
>>>  Subject: [nfb-talk] Blind Parents and Divorce
>>>
>>>
>>>  We have all heard about blind parents being questioned in their
>>> ability to
>>>  care for their children by social workers or spouses. There have even
>>> been
>>>  some notable cases in which courts have ruled in favor of blind
>>> parents in
>>>  such situations.  NFB has been instrumental in many of these cases.
>>> What
>>>  most of us little understand though is how complex the matter becomes
>>> in
>>>  family court.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  First of all, family court is civil court. The only people who go
>>> there are
>>>  people with money. For all practical purposes, you can't go without an
>>>  Attorney and unless you're very poor there are no organizations set up
>>>
>>> to
>>>  help you.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  Many of you don't know me well, and frankly, if it weren't for this
>>>  situation, I would prefer to leave my personal life outside these
>>> lists.
>>>
>>>  However, I find myself in a situation which may well be common to
>>> others so
>>>  will tell my story at some length.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  This story is really about my daughter, but, since it begins with my
>>> wife
>>>  and I, I'll tell it that way.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  In January of 2002 I lived in Portland Oregon.  I met a lady named
>>> Kristen.
>>>  At the time I was 49 and she was 39.  With very little knowledge about
>>>
>>> one
>>>  another we had what one could describe as a whirlwind romance that
>>> included
>>>  unprotected sex.  By March first we were aware that Kristen was
>>> pregnant.
>>>  For me, having a child was always the most scary and at the same time
>>> most
>>>  wonderful possibility in my heart.  Scary because I didn't know if I'd
>>>
>>> be a
>>>  good father, didn't know if I could do all the things a father needed
>>> to do,
>>>  and honestly, because I really didn't like being around kids, I wasn't
>>>
>>> sure
>>>  if I would really love my child like a father should.  Friends assured
>>>
>>> me
>>>  that such things were the fears of all would-be fathers but I just
>>> didn't
>>>  know.
>>>
>>>  What was important to me was that my child would be loved and cared
>>> for and
>>>  that I would be everything a father should be. I quit my job as the
>>>  Assistant to the Director of the Oregon Commission for the Blind and
>>> moved
>>>  to Maryland to live with Kristen in May.  We were married in July.
>>> I'd like
>>>  to tell you that the romance was still thriving, but, even by that
>>> time
>>>  there were signs of trouble.  Four days before our marriage we had an
>>> hour
>>>  long argument in which she gave me the option of not going through
>>> with the
>>>  marriage.  I didn't take the option, assuming that we, as responsible
>>> adults
>>>  could work out anything.  So, on July 21st, we were married.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  Julianna Michaela Humphrey Bullis was born on October 31st, 2002.  It
>>> was
>>>  the most wonderful, stunning, life changing moment of my life.  I
>>> threw
>>>  myself into parenting like I had always loved it and would love it
>>> forever.
>>>  My little girl never knew her daddy was blind.  I changed her diapers,
>>>
>>> gave
>>>  her bottles, dressed her, bathed her and fed her.  She took over my
>>> heart in
>>>  a way that nothing ever had.  I always knew that if I had a child it
>>> could
>>>  never be that the child would be my servant.  I wanted my blindness to
>>>
>>> be
>>>  just something, like brown hair or blue eyes.  And it was that for
>>> Julianna.
>>>  Because she never knew any different, daddy was just daddy.  In fact,
>>> at
>>>  first she never believed I was blind, even when I explained it to her
>>> as she
>>>  approached two years old.  She said once, apparently after giving the
>>> matter
>>>  much consideration, "Daddy, you're not blind.  I know it because you
>>> have
>>>  eyes." Hey, how can you argue with such simplicity.  I told her that
>>> my eyes
>>>  didn't work, much like when she had a broken toy.  It was obvious she
>>> didn't
>>>  agree because she just looked at me and went on playing.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  We walked in the neighborhood.  We played with neighbor kids.  I
>>> tucked her
>>>  in at night and kissed her in the morning.  A place in my heart was
>>>  overflowing with the love I had never known could exist.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  But, on the marriage front things were not going so well.  My wife and
>>>
>>> I,
>>>  for a variety of reasons, simply didn't relate to life in the same
>>> ways.  By
>>>  summer of 2003 we began marriage counseling and were, off and on,  in
>>> some
>>>  form of counseling until the summer of 2006.  The simplest thing I can
>>>
>>> say
>>>  about the counseling was that it didn't seem to work.  I think we both
>>>  honestly tried to do everything we could to make it work, but it
>>> didn't.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  The issue of blindness began rearing it's head when Julianna was a
>>> little
>>>  past one.  My wife purchased a harness with a strap on the back which
>>> she
>>>  asked me to use so Julianna wouldn't "get away."  I told her that
>>> nobody in
>>>  the neighborhood used such a thing and I didn't want our daughter
>>> looking
>>>  like a weirdo.  "Besides," I said, "I can always hold her hand and
>>> stay
>>>  close to her when we're out."  The next thing that came was a wrist
>>> strap
>>>  which I was asked to use.  Again I said that it was unnecessary.  My
>>> wife
>>>  called in her parents who described their fears about Julianna getting
>>>
>>> away
>>>  from me.  I told them that I respected their concerns and that if I
>>> ever
>>>  felt that Julianna was in danger I would use the strap, or, if I were
>>> in a
>>>  large crowd, I could see some merit to it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  In September of 2005, the parallel paths of blindness and
>>> disagreements
>>>  about other issues came to a head and we separated.  I got an
>>> apartment in
>>>  Charles Village, a neighborhood of Baltimore, and my wife stayed with
>>> our
>>>  daughter at the house.  I provided financial support and we continued
>>> to
>>>  attempt reconciliation, both through personal and joint counseling.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  At first, my wife asked me not to tell our daughter that I was living
>>> away
>>>  from home.  She felt I should just say I was working hard and would be
>>>
>>> home
>>>  soon.  I did see Julianna two or three times per week at the family
>>> home. At
>>>  some points I suggested that Julianna and I might go on a bus trip to
>>> the
>>>  ice cream shop.  Kristen became very uncomfortable and said she was
>>> afraid
>>>  of busses and their lack of safety.  She also didn't want me taking
>>> her in
>>>  cabs because that too would be dangerous.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  By January of 2006 Julianna had figured out on her own that daddy had
>>> an
>>>  apartment.  I asked Kristen to allow her to come and visit.  She
>>> demurred,
>>>  saying that she just needed a little more time to become comfortable
>>> with
>>>  all of it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  In April of 2006 things came to a head when I suggested to Julianna
>>> that we
>>>  could go on a bus ride because she was asking about busses.  My wife's
>>>  response in this email was clear and to the point. I quote it here:
>>> "What
>>>  frightens and makes me, Mom and Dad mistrust your ability to care for
>>> and
>>>  protect her, in addition to all the ways in which you have damaged my
>>> trust
>>>  (and by extension theirs') is your arrogant insistence that Julianna
>>> faces
>>>  no ADDITIONAL peril or jeopardy in potentially dangerous situations in
>>>
>>> the
>>>  care of someone who cannot see.
>>>
>>>  That is absurd, and no amount of political correctness with regard to
>>> your
>>>
>>>  (considerable) skills and abilities despite your blindness can make up
>>>
>>> for
>>>  having the additional sense of sight when it comes to locating an
>>> object, in
>>>  this case an erratic, extremely quick toddler, that has alluded your
>>> grasp.
>>>  This is most especially true in any type of noisy, crowded conditions
>>> and/or
>>>  unfamiliar territory."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  "It is not a matter of subjectivity, Mike. We have all observed that
>>> if
>>>  Julianna wants to evade you, she can do so quite effectively within
>>> the
>>>  confines of OUR HOUSE. So what could the consequences be if she were
>>> to
>>>  suddenly become restless, frustrated, tired of waiting, stubborn and
>>> angry
>>>  at a bus stop on a street where cars are speeding past? Or even if she
>>>  should decide to chase a stray ball into the street in front of our
>>> own
>>>  house? You cannot continue to pretend that she cannot wriggle free of
>>> you,
>>>  or that she is not capable of defying your admonitions against
>>> straying (she
>>>  can suddenly decide to check out a speck glinting in the sunlight in
>>> the
>>>  street, that to her is a previously undiscovered treasure!), much less
>>>
>>> your
>>>  ability to recapture her in the split second necessary to keep her
>>> from
>>>  darting in front of a car if she were to wriggle free. You cannot
>>> continue
>>>  to insist that your ability to recapture her is the same as someone
>>> who can
>>>  see precisely where she is and where to grab her. You cannot continue
>>> the
>>>  pretense that your abilities ARE the same or equal, merely different,
>>>  because the stakes are just too high: your daughter's very life."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  I could make many responses , but they feel so defensive.  No, I
>>> didn't stop
>>>  Julianna from evading me at that age in the house.  I preferred to
>>> ignore
>>>  the behavior, acting as though I didn't want to find her sometimes.
>>> That
>>>  way I wouldn't set up a challenge situation in which she would become
>>> more
>>>  creative and desirous of hiding from me.  I think that whether I was
>>> sighted
>>>  or not, I would handle the situation that way.  Exerting control sets
>>> up a
>>>  very adverse situation.  Now, when it comes to being out in public, I
>>>  maintained much stricter control, without letting Julianna know it in
>>> order
>>>  that she not be in danger.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  But, at least the cards were on the table and we knew what we were
>>> fighting
>>>  about I hoped.  My style when it comes to handling sighted people and
>>> their
>>>  concerns about my blindness is to show by example.  I could point out
>>> that
>>>  thousands of blind people have successfully raised sighted children
>>> and so
>>>  far as the numbers go, there are no more incidents of injury than for
>>> any
>>>  other children.  I tried unsuccessfully to point out that I work with
>>> young
>>>  children as a part of my job, but it was dismissed because those were
>>> blind
>>>  kids who couldn't run away like sighted kids.  What became troublingly
>>>
>>> and
>>>  dismayingly apparent was that no amount of convincing would work.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  Our separation continued and communication deteriorated.  I was still
>>> able
>>>  to visit Julianna at the family home but that was it.  She couldn't
>>> come to
>>>  my home and so I continued to not be able to tuck her in at night or
>>> feed
>>>  her breakfast in the morning.  A year had gone by since our separation
>>>
>>> and
>>>  still, my heart was breaking because I couldn't just be with my
>>> daughter.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  In August, my wife filed for divorce asking for full legal and
>>> physical
>>>  custody.  What I discovered was a sad truth about divorce.  It's
>>> messy!  The
>>>  grounds were that I was abusive, that I was an irresponsible, risk
>>> taking,
>>>  dangerous, alcoholic.  Frankly, when I read all the things that were
>>> said
>>>  about me I started to realize how difficult it would be for anyone to
>>> not
>>>  believe at least some of it.  In fact, I believed much of it, although
>>>
>>> it
>>>  was out of context and far out of proportion.  But, in the divorce
>>> game the
>>>  one who accuses the most is the one with the best chance of winning.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  I still believed though that Kristen would come to her senses and
>>> realize
>>>  that nobody should keep their child from her daddy and that we were
>>> doing
>>>  irreparable harm.  I also believed the courts would see this as well.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  So, after she filed for divorce, I too, had to find a lawyer and
>>> respond.  I
>>>  knew going in, as did everyone else, that I had little money to
>>> continue a
>>>  long battle.  I had one credit card that I could run up $20,000 on but
>>>
>>> that
>>>  was pretty much it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  But, I made the decision that when my daughter got older and asked me
>>>  "Daddy, didn't you care?  Did you fight for me?"  I had to answer,
>>> "yes,"
>>>
>>>  and mean it.  My little girl has to know, when all is said and done
>>> that her
>>>  daddy loved her with all his heart and wants her to be with him and
>>> that he
>>>  did everything humanly possible to make that happen without breaking
>>> the
>>>  law.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  Court justice moves slowly.  The soonest we could get a hearing on the
>>>  "facts" of the matter was March 12th 2007.  Meanwhile all visitations
>>> were
>>>  in restaurants or public libraries.  I couldn't come to the family
>>> home
>>>  because I was dangerous and Julianna certainly couldn't come to my
>>> home and
>>>  be with me unsupervised.  Do I sound like a pedophile to you.  It's
>>> what I
>>>  felt like.  Some kind of criminal who couldn't be trusted to have
>>> private
>>>  communications or interactions with his daughter.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  Three or four days before the March hearing my wife's lawyer called to
>>>
>>> begin
>>>  negotiating.  He agreed to a plan that would lead to week-end visits
>>> within
>>>  four months.  He knew that all the accusations were simply tactics,
>>> not
>>>  realities.  He also knew that my witness list would overwelm his.  I
>>> had
>>>  people willing to testify about my character and about my ability to
>>> work
>>>  with children.  I also had former neighbors who were ready to testify
>>> that I
>>>  was a capable and responsible parent.  No way did he want to go to
>>> court on
>>>  the issues of visitation.  Michael Jones was scheduled to come in from
>>>  Atlanta, paid for by the NFB, to deal with broader matters of blind
>>>  parenting.  In other words, when the chips were down, my wife's lawyer
>>>  didn't want to go to court about these matters and so quickly
>>> negotiated an
>>>  agreement.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  Among the stipulations in the agreement was one that said that I would
>>>
>>> allow
>>>  Kristen to "inspect" my house and make "recommendations" about things
>>> that
>>>  were unsafe. I'm a bachelor now and felt that any advice anybody
>>> wanted to
>>>  give was useful so, I agreed, particularly since the language clearly
>>> said
>>>  "recommendations". What I discovered, after the hearing, was that my
>>> wife's
>>>  lawyer had no intention of encouraging her to follow the agreement.
>>> My
>>>  wife's position was that she could make lists of problems within my
>>> house
>>>  and that I must fix them all in order for any meaningful visits to
>>> take
>>>  place. No matter what I fixed, there were more problems. I spent $600
>>> trying
>>>  to make things right, but, they never were.  Because of the way courts
>>>
>>> work,
>>>  I would have to take her back to court in order to get a judge to
>>> declare
>>>  her in default of the agreement.  I have no money for this anymore.
>>> In
>>>  fact, I've had to terminate my Attorney because I simply can't afford
>>> one.
>>>  Bankruptcy is likely for me in the next few months, depending upon how
>>>
>>> my
>>>  creditors choose to pursue payments.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  So, here we come up on two years and I effectively have two hours per
>>> week
>>>  of supervised visits with my daughter.  Yes, she can now  come to my
>>> home,
>>>  but only if Kristen or her parents are here to supervise.  Julianna
>>> now
>>>  believes that I'm unsafe.  Apparently she's heard enough family talk
>>> to
>>>  figure out that daddy is dangerous.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  I don't know what to say. In one sense, my story is about a blind man
>>> who is
>>>  being discriminated against because of the misconceptions about
>>> blindness.
>>>  In another sense, it's the story of family court justice that depends
>>> upon
>>>  money to gain any form of resolution.  Yes, there are nonprofit
>>>  organizations available but they usually focus on the parent rather
>>> than the
>>>  child.  If a female or her children are being abused, there is help.
>>> Moving
>>>  the case to the criminal side of things gets attention.  Legal Aid is
>>> for
>>>  poor people but even legal Aid doesn't do many divorces because their
>>>  resources simply aren't adequate.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  Finally, men just aren't very pitiable.  We don't look like victims
>>> and
>>>  often stay silent for far to long when this kind of situation comes
>>> up.  I
>>>  find it hard to believe that I've let two years of my daughter's life
>>> go by,
>>>  always believing that things will resolve themselves at the next
>>> meeting or
>>>  in the next court action.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  The difficulty with this case is that, although it revolves around
>>>  blindness, like many divorces, it also revolves around many other
>>> things.
>>>
>>>  I questioned my own sanity at one point and contacted my X-wife.  I
>>> gave her
>>>  the allegations of my abusiveness and angry tendencies and asked her
>>> if she
>>>  saw these things in me.  She said she'd be glad to come and testify on
>>>
>>> my
>>>  behalf that I had never even raised my voice to her in our eight year
>>>  marriage.  My lawyer told me that having X-wives testify in divorce
>>> cases is
>>>  pretty much not done but, if I have the chance I'll ask her to do it.
>>> I
>>>  mean, if anybody should have bad things to say it would be her.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  The NFB has taken on cases like mine, but only to the extent of
>>> helping with
>>>  blindness related issues. In my case, about twenty-five percent of the
>>>
>>> case
>>>  is blindness related. NFB was/is willing to pay for that, but, it will
>>>
>>> be of
>>>  little value if I can't afford the other 75 percent. If clever
>>> opponents can
>>>  mask their true concerns behind other subterfuge, the case becomes
>>> very
>>>  expensive. Divorce court is a very sleazy and messy place. The lawyer
>>> who
>>>  makes the most accusations and breaks the other party financially
>>> wins.
>>>
>>>  Although the best interests of the child is the standard, few cases
>>> come to
>>>  trial and no lawyer is censured for bare knuckle fighting when it
>>> comes to
>>>  divorces.
>>>
>>>  What my daughter needs is an Attorney for her side.  Usually courts
>>> will
>>>  appoint somebody to represent the child's interests if requested, but
>>> you
>>>  have to pay for that.  I'm asking for the Baltimore County Courts to
>>> appoint
>>>  an Attorney for Julianna but also have to ask that the Attorney work
>>> for no
>>>  pay.  Results are doubtful.  She is the real loser here and somebody
>>> needs
>>>  to defend her right to see her daddy.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  All I have ever wanted was to get to a court-room in which I could
>>> present
>>>  witnesses to refute their accusations and vouch for who I am.  I don't
>>>  believe, by the way, that my wife is lying.  She's not making things
>>> up.  In
>>>  her own mind she really believes what she says.  What I think though
>>> is that
>>>  the courts ought to do what they say their mission is.  They say that
>>> the
>>>  standard is the "best interests of the child."  I believe when they
>>> sort it
>>>  out, the best interests for my daughter involve being with her daddy,
>>> in his
>>>  home, unsupervised.  I believe she needs a daddy to go fishing with.
>>> She
>>>  needs a daddy to wake her up in the morning and kiss her goodnight.  I
>>>
>>> also
>>>  believe that lawyers like my wife's should be evaluated on the extent
>>> to
>>>  which they truly seek to find resolution to family cases. When a child
>>>
>>> is
>>>  involved, the usual attack and attack rules ought to be changed.
>>> Lawyers
>>>  ought to be given public scrutiny for the extent to which they resolve
>>>
>>> cases
>>>  rather than prolong them.  A lawyer with a history of divorce cases
>>> going to
>>>  trial ought to be evaluated on his negotiating abilities.  Most
>>> importantly,
>>>  lawyers who take on divorce cases where children are involved should
>>> be held
>>>  to a much higher standard than others.  They should be required to
>>>  demonstrate that they counseled their client on the possible danger to
>>>
>>> their
>>>  clients' children of anger over the divorce interfering with good
>>> judgment.
>>>  Or, allowing their anger over a marriage gone bad to interfere with
>>>  withholding visitation.  They should be required to justify with
>>> actual
>>>  evidence which they have evaluated, any limitation of parental rights.
>>>
>>> In
>>>  other words, the courts ought to hold to a high standard when it comes
>>>
>>> to
>>>  children.  Finally, courts need to move away from the presumption that
>>>  mothers are better care-givers than fathers.  My lawyer advised me
>>> from the
>>>  beginning, that I would have little or no chance of gaining fifty
>>> percent
>>>  custody of Julianna.  Because she is with her mother, that is where
>>> she
>>>  should stay. I think that we often think of dads as having to be
>>> dragged
>>>  into court to do what's right by their children.  Sadly, I think
>>> that's true
>>>  far more often than it should be.  But, I have spoken to many father's
>>>
>>> who
>>>  simply say that they were being asked to pay but weren't being given
>>> the
>>>  rights of parents so they just rebelled and quit the system.  I'm a
>>> dad who
>>>  continues to pay but who wants to be his girl's daddy before it's to
>>> late.
>>>
>>>  Sincerely,
>>>
>>>  Michael Bullis
>>>
>>>  Work phone: 410-737-2604
>>>
>>>  Cell: 443-992-1537
>>>
>>>  Evening phone: 410-323-4884
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> ----
>>>  ----
>>>
>>>
>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>  nfb-talk mailing list
>>>  nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>  http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk
>>>
>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>  nfb-talk mailing list
>>>  nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>  http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk
>>>
>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>  nfb-talk mailing list
>>>  nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>  http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk
>>>
>>>
>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>  nfb-talk mailing list
>>>  nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>  http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk
>>>
>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>  nfb-talk mailing list
>>>  nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>  http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk
>>>
>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>  nfb-talk mailing list
>>>  nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>  http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk
>>>
>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>  nfb-talk mailing list
>>>  nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>  http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk
>>>
>>>
>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>  nfb-talk mailing list
>>>  nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>  http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk
>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>> Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.11/944 - Release Date: 
>>> 8/9/2007
>>> 2:44 PM
>>>
>>>
>
>>_______________________________________________
>>nfb-talk mailing list
>>nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk
>
>>_______________________________________________
>>nfb-talk mailing list
>>nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk
>
>>_______________________________________________
>>nfb-talk mailing list
>>nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk
>
>>_______________________________________________
>>nfb-talk mailing list
>>nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk
>
>
>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.15/949 - Release Date: 8/12/2007
>>11:03 AM
>>
>
>>No virus found in this outgoing message.
>>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.15/949 - Release Date: 8/12/2007
>>11:03 AM
>>
>
>>_______________________________________________
>>nfb-talk mailing list
>>nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk
>
>>_______________________________________________
>>nfb-talk mailing list
>>nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nfb-talk mailing list
> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk 



More information about the nfb-talk mailing list