[nfb-talk] issue with job and philosophy

Thu Nov 30 15:56:44 CST 2006

Good message Steve;
The NFB wants us to learn how to cope with our blindness and not pity
ourselves or have others pity us.  Just because we have a complication,
does not mean we can not learn how to cope with it.  
One of my thearies that there is always someone else out there, worse
off than you.  Just compare a blind person to an amputee.  We may have
problems with equipment, but at least we can move around with our own
aids and do almost anything we want.  I was promiced an embosser many
many years ago, by NIH.  I finally got one 2 years ago and it is still
not working right.  That's a whole nother matter, but I have been
working for them for, now, 20 years.  That's what I call a long time...

Terry Powers

-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Jacobson [mailto:steve.jacobson at visi.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 10:38 PM
To: NFB Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] issue with job and philosophy

Chris,

To my way of thinking, you are making this into something it is not.
The whole issue of blindness being a nuisance 
arose as a sort of antidote to the notion that it is a tragedy.  Nobody
every said it was an itch that could be scratched.  If 
you want to define it that way so you can ignore or minimize, I suppose
that is your right, but why do that.  Why even 
think about it this much.  I can honestly say that I do not spend most
of my waking moments wishing I could see which is 
something the public does not understand.  Saying that blindness is a
nuisance rather than a tragedy is simply a way to 
convey how it is for most of us after we have gotten the training we
need.  Inaccessible software is an issue for us and 
we have to figure out how to deal with it as are a number of other
issues.  The fact is, though, most of us did not choose 
to be blind.  We were handed a set of characteristics with which we are
compelled to do the best we can.  For me, 
being able to look at blindness as just another thing with which I must
deal has helped me deal with it.  I have never 
seen an example where thinking of blindness as a tragedy has led to any
good.  It also helps me focus my frustration.  
When software isn't accessible, I don't think of it as just more proof
of the tragic life I am leading, rather I try to figure out 
how to either fix it or get around it.  Sometimes I get a little angry
at companies who make larger profits at my expense, 
which while probably not real healthy, keeps me moving ahead.  If I have
misunderstood your question, I am sorry, but I 
just don't see your point.  If, on the other hand, you are wondering if
I ever get frustrated with being blind, of course I do, 
we all do.  However, I can honestly tell you that there are sighted
peopl in my family with whom I would not trade places 
because their circumstances are far worse than mine.  I don't think
there is anything wrong with getting frustrated 
sometimes.  

I don't know how we can be into accessibility with Windows for ten years
and not have a very accessible database, 
and I don't know what it would take to really get something done with MS
Access.  Some of it has to do with the smaller 
numbers of us who use it and that is a pain.  In my opinion, MS Access
is more important than Skype because it has 
potential for employment and career enhancement.  Very few jobs are
enhanced by Skype, but one has to admit I 
suppose that some lives have been.  Please understand I'm try to express
some feelings here and not pick a fight.  I can 
identify with some of the feelings you have expressed regarding job
challenges.

On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 18:02:25 -0500, Chris Westbrook wrote:

>The problem I see with your statements is they lend themselves to 
>polarization.  That is, blindness is either seen as a physical nuisance
or a 
>tragedy, neither of which I think are true.  To me, it is just as wrong
to 
>call blindness a physical nuisance as if it were an itch that could be 
>scratched away or a sore toe as it is to call blindness a life ending 
>tragedy.  I have a real hard time with the notion that software 
>inaccessibility that could potentially cause the loss of jobs (I'm not 
>referring to myself here but people in general) could be seen as a
nuisance 
>.  If we take that attitude, there won't be many jobs left that a blind

>person can perform independently in 50 years.
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 10:30 AM
>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] issue with job and philosophy

>> Antonio:
>>
>> There's a fallacy in your argument: you presume that bindness is a 
>> *unique*
>> nuisance; it is not. The point of NFB philosophy is that blindness is
the
>> same sort of nuisance or inconvenience as are often race, religion or
>> national origin or any number of other characteristics. For better or

>> worse,
>> all can be nuisances or inconveniences at times (try being a
Christian in
>> Iran, for example or being six-foot-seven on a submarine). But
blindness 
>> is
>> not a tragedy with a special reserved category for wailing and
nashing of
>> teeth.
>>
>> There are times when blindness can be damned inconvenient; software
>> inaccessibility is one of these. But one doesn't need to make a
Federal 
>> case
>> out of it. But when it impacts something one wishes to do adversely,
that
>> inconvenience can loom large.
>>
>> Let's keep our logic straight, however.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "ANTONIO GUIMARAES" <amguima at verizon.net>
>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 9:12 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] issue with job and philosophy
>>
>>
>> Hi Chriss,
>>
>> I don't agree 100 percent with the notion that blindness is a mere 
>> nuisence.
>> That to me is understating the fact.
>>
>> I have been nuisenced out of 2 grand for the purchase of a screen
reader,
>> and a scanning package, $450 for a fully talking dictionary, 5 grand
for a
>> note-taker/PDA, and I have been nuicenced out of possibilities for
>> promotions at my job.
>>
>> I am nuisenced all the time when going out to a club, as I can not
see
>> others, and know if they are members of the opposit sex, and weather
they
>> are acompanied.
>>
>> Blind people are often nuisenced for having to leave everything
behind to 
>> go
>> away for guide dog training for about a month every 10 years.
>>
>> I can cite several other instances of nuicences, but this meticulous
>> exercize wouln't do me much good, at least for now.
>>
>> NFB philosophy is changing, and federationists of all tipes are
giving 
>> more
>> waight to access issues. Any person reading through our current
Convention
>> resolutions will note this fact.
>>
>> Blind students wishing to take AP exams are nuisenced by the
inadequate
>> availability of brailled training materials, (Res2006-03)-
>>
>> Blind pupils are nuisenced by the lack of braille instruction, and
often
>> fall into illiteracy, (Res2006-01)
>>
>> Blind workers are frequently nuisenced in their jobs, because they
can 
>> earn
>> less than minimal wage, (Res2006-04).
>>
>> These are just some examples of how our philosophy has been flexible,
due 
>> to
>> technological, and socio-economic barriers.
>>
>> And what about the dictionary definition of nuicence?
>>
>> Acording to my Franklin Master, nuisance is an anoying or troublesome

>> person
>> or thing.
>>
>> Is blindness simply an anoying fact, or is it troublesome at times?
Is it 
>> a
>> tragedy, or something that can be overcome?
>>
>> Sincerely yours
>> Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr.
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Chris Westbrook" <westbc at clw19.com>
>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 11:38 PM
>> Subject: [nfb-talk] issue with job and philosophy
>>
>>
>> I am having an issue with my new job and I was wondering if any of
you had
>> suggestions.  There are a lot of things I can do well, but sometimes
I am
>> put on lower priority projects because of my inability to affectively

>> create
>> reports in Microsoft access.  I find Jaws and Window Eye' support for

>> Access
>> sorely lacking for anyone who wants to do anything useful with it.  I
know
>> some of you are saying well use a reader, and I have certainly
thought 
>> about
>> that, but I do not have enough work to keep a reader busy for eight
or 
>> even
>> four hours a day, and many times these projects come up suddenly and
need 
>> to
>> be done yesterday so I can't just recruit a reader whenever I need
one or
>> push my work to a certain time when a reader could be scheduled.
Other
>> coworkers can't be of much help either because they are working on
other
>> tasks.  I think this issue brings up two points.  One, have you found
any
>> techniques for dealing with this problem, but I think this also
raises a
>> philosophical question which I think is probably more appropriate for
this
>> list.  I have always grown up with the idea that blindness can really
be
>> reduced to the level of a physical nuisance given the proper training
and
>> opportunity.  I feel that I have pretty decent blindness skills, 
>> especially
>> related to computers, and I am given all the opportunity in the
world.  I
>> have the latest version of Jaws and Window Eyes at my disposal as
well as 
>> a
>> 70 cell Braille display and good Braille literacy  skills.  Yet there
are
>> certain things I just can't do not because of my lack of intelligence
but
>> due to accessibility.  Sometimes I fear Federationists don't really
>> understand how important accessibility is.  It's easy to say "use a 
>> reader"
>> when you're dealing with reading the occasional mail or using the 
>> occasional
>> visual verification or identifying the occasional bit of paper money,
etc.
>> but if Jaws went away tomorrow and you were told to just use a reader
to
>> access your computer would you do it?  I know some of you will
probably 
>> say
>> "oh well we could make our own solutions if Jaws were to disappear"
but 
>> I'm
>> not sure if you realize how much cooperation is required from
Microsoft 
>> and
>> other companies to have what little accessibility we do have and how 
>> easily
>> it could be taken away.  I've been thinking of this issue a lot
because it
>> really frustrates me when I am not able to help with a problem at
work due
>> to inaccessible Microsoft software that probably cannot be scripted
for.
>> What is sometimes even more frustrating is when I mention my concerns
to 
>> my
>> friend who is also pretty much my boss and the one who brought me to
the
>> company, he turns my  Federationist philosophy right back on me by
>> commenting that I have said repeatedly that I don't want to be
treated
>> differently from other people, which is of course true.  I don't
really 
>> have
>> a good response for that one.  While there is still plenty of stuff I
can 
>> do
>> and I am not in danger of losing my job, and I realize I might not
have 
>> been
>> able to do all those things fully sighted, it really bugs me that I
can't
>> contribute as much as I feel I could.  IF I were sighted I would be 
>> expected
>> to learn to do these things if I had a gap in my skill set.  Frankly
I
>> consider that more than just a nuisance.  I'm curious to hear what
you 
>> guys
>> think.
>>
>>
>>
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