[Mt-blind] Mt-blind Digest, Vol 13, Issue 15
dmgina
dmgina at qwest.net
Sat Jul 28 17:54:23 CDT 2007
Hi there,
With all the quiet cars out there, you sure couldn't hear it at all with
coocoo going.
Now that would frighten me.
I am wondering, will there be an instructor at the convention this year to talk about training with the quiet cars and the beeping lights?
I would be interested in that one.
Dar
the ----- source message -----
from: "Daniel Burke" <burke.dall at gmail.com>
to: "'Montana Association for the Blind List'" <mt-blind at nfbnet.org>
date: saturday Jul 28 2007, 15:09:38
subject: Re: [Mt-blind] Mt-blind Digest, Vol 13, Issue 15
>
>
> In the case of the one that Ted is referring to, and the one I'm referring
> to, and to the three I know of in Helena right now, they are definitely loud
> enough that they can easily mask the sound of traffic surges.
>
> So it's not surprising that they make a "cuckoo" sound, is it? (grin)
>
> By the way, we had the one in Missoula turned off.
>
> Dan
>
>
> ----comOriginal Message-----
> From: mt-blind-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:mt-blind-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of dmgina
> Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2007 11:50 AM
> To: mt-blind at nfbnet.org
> Subject: Re: [Mt-blind] Mt-blind Digest, Vol 13, Issue 15
>
> Hi there,
> Is the sound of the light louder than the traffic going down the street.
> I haven't done much with the lights having sounds.
> Just did it one time with the chirping light in Michigan.
> Stay safe out there.
> Dar
> ----- source message -----
> from: Edward C Robbins <robbinsec at juno.com>
> to: mt-blind at nfbnet.org
> date: saturday Jul 28 2007, 09:37:55
> subject: Re: [Mt-blind] Mt-blind Digest, Vol 13, Issue 15
>
> >
> >
> > Greetings,
> > I have had my experiences with the "cookoo/chirp" signal on
> > Central and 4th street in Great Falls. (It has recently been removed.)
> > When ready to cross, I would focus on the sound, ignoreing the
> > surge and other cues. Several times I would find my self crossing
> > diagonally and once was walking up Central, past the intersection, when
> > my plan was to cross it.
> > I found out that the audible signal was located on one building
> > and I was focusing in on the echo of the darn thing. We must use the
> > skills we have learned and quit thinking that all these "marvalous"
> > things for our good will save us all.
> > Sincerely,
> > Ted Robbins
> >
> > On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 09:20:15 com0600 "Daniel Burke" <burke.dall at gmail.com>
> > writes:
> > > You know Nancy, I had a similar experience in Missoula some years
> > > ago. An
> > > audible signal was put in at the corner of S. 3rd W and Russell,
> > > near where
> > > the BLVS offices were then located. I determined to cross there and
> > > use the
> > > signal one time. Despite everything I knew -- listen for the surge,
> > > the
> > > signal only tells you what color the light is and not that you
> > > should start
> > > -- the minute the thing went off I darn near jumped off the curb. It
> > > gives a
> > > false sense of information and security, in my view. It's easy to
> > > take it
> > > as a command. As it happened, I resisted the audible signal's
> > > urging to get
> > > into the crosswalk. Good think, as a car turned right directly in
> > > front of
> > > me and in some kind of a hurry to beat the surge of traffic that was
> > > with
> > > me. I would have been in its grill had I gone.
> > >
> > > Dan
> > >
> > >
> > > ----comOriginal Message-----
> > > From: mt-blind-bounces at nfbnet.org
> > > [mailto:mt-blind-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> > > Behalf Of Nancy Cormier
> > > Sent: Friday, July 27, 2007 9:16 PM
> > > To: mt-blind at nfbnet.org
> > > Subject: Re: [Mt-blind] Mt-blind Digest, Vol 13, Issue 15
> > >
> > > More on audible signals....
> > > This is not research but a true story that teaches a good lesson.
> > > In
> > > Austin, TX I was working with a consumer at a very busy
> > > intersection. My instructions were to wait for the appropriate
> > > surge. She insisted on using the audible signal. She knew the
> > > appropriate surge to travel with but was listening for the audible
> > >
> > > signal. The signal went off. As she started to step onto the
> > > street the perpendicular traffic started to move. I pulled her to
> > >
> > > safety and she immediately realized the signal she heard was for the
> > >
> > > other direction. There was never any doubt after that incident
> > > that she had to listen for the appropriate surge which comes after
> > >
> > > the audible signal starts.
> > >
> > > Nancy Cormier
> > >
> > > On Jul 25, 2007, at 9:50 PM, mt-blind-request at nfbnet.org wrote:
> > >
> > > > Send Mt-blind mailing list submissions to
> > > > mt-blind at nfbnet.org
> > > >
> > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mt-blind
> > > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > > > mt-blind-request at nfbnet.org
> > > >
> > > > You can reach the person managing the list at
> > > > mt-blind-owner at nfbnet.org
> > > >
> > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more
> > > specific
> > > > than "Re: Contents of Mt-blind digest..."
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Today's Topics:
> > > >
> > > > 1. Re: MAB Position on Accessible Pedestrian Signals (RJ still KJ)
> > > > 2. Re: MAB Position on Accessible Pedestrian Signals (Daniel
> > > Burke)
> > > > 3. Re: MAB Position on Accessible Pedestrian Signals
> > > > (Bernice DeHaas)
> > > > 4. Re: MAB Position on Accessible Pedestrian Signals (Dan
> > > Burke)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Message: 1
> > > > Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 13:41:36 com0600
> > > > From: "RJ still KJ" <d28rik at msn.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: [Mt-blind] MAB Position on Accessible Pedestrian
> > > Signals
> > > > To: "'Montana Association for the Blind List'"
> > > <mt-blind at nfbnet.org>
> > > > Message-ID: <BAY106-DAV414631C7823513F3E2CEADBF10 at phx.gbl>
> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=by iso-8859-1"
> > > >
> > > > President Dan and others on the list... Anyone know about the
> > > > plans going
> > > > down in Bozeman? Intersections on our Main Street has been torn
> > > up
> > > > all
> > > > summer. I had heard from a couple that plans were to put audible
> > >
> > > > signals
> > > > in. I don't know if there was any consultation such as was
> > > > suggested in
> > > > the 2003 resolution that Mr. Marks posted recently on this list.
> > > I
> > > > suspect
> > > > it is possible there was some local input here, but do not know
> > > > that. I
> > > > would contact someone to give them a copy of the resolution if you
> > >
> > > > think it
> > > > might be helpful. Likely as not, this is all too late for us. I
> > >
> > > > do not
> > > > know of too many white cane users on our downtown streets other
> > > > than Mr.
> > > > Toohey and myself as I never run across any or hear mention by
> > > > others. But
> > > > perhaps there are. There are some tricky intersections in
> > > > Bozeman. But if
> > > > they do this to all the downtown corners it will be a noise that I
> > >
> > > > think
> > > > will really annoy many. And even worse, in my opinion, it will be
> > > a
> > > > hindrance to the usual blind traveler techniques for making safe
> > >
> > > > crossings.
> > > >
> > > > Comments or information may be made to me by email at
> > > > d28rik at msn.com or by
> > > > phone at 406.586-4123. I don't regularly read all the posts on
> > > > this list so
> > > > I might miss your reply.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks.
> > > > Rik James
> > > > Bozeman
> > > >
> > > > ----comOriginal Message-----
> > > > From: mt-blind-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailtoccmt-blind-
> > > > bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> > > > Behalf Of Daniel Burke
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 8:50 AM
> > > > To: blind.grizzly at gmail.com; 'Montana Association for the Blind
> > > List'
> > > > Subject: Re: [Mt-blind] MAB Position on Accessible Pedestrian
> > > Signals
> > > >
> > > > Thanks Jim,
> > > >
> > > > The interesting thing about audible signals is that there isn't
> > > any
> > > > substantive research to show that they actually increase safety
> > > for
> > > > blind
> > > > pedestrians. The whole concept is one seemingly based on
> > > > supposition -- if
> > > > you can't see the signal, then you need to hear it. At about
> > > > $25,000 per
> > > > intersection to install, that's a pretty weak argument. For
> > > even
> > > > a city
> > > > as small as Missoula, that would come out to nearly $3 million.
> > >
> > > > That is
> > > > some serious government intervention with not much to justify the
> > >
> > > > expense.
> > > >
> > > > Dan
> > > >
> > > > ----comOriginal Message-----
> > > > From: mt-blind-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailtoccmt-blind-
> > > > bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> > > > Behalf Of Jim Marks
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 9:44 PM
> > > > To: 'Montana Association for the Blind List'
> > > > Subject: [Mt-blind] MAB Position on Accessible Pedestrian Signals
> > > >
> > > > As promised, I looked up the MAB resolution on accessible
> > > pedestrian
> > > > signals. The resolution, which was adopted in 2003 in Butte,
> > > > stands as the
> > > > official policy on the audible signals. The resolution does not
> > >
> > > > oppose all
> > > > such signals, but it certainly sets the tone that they are rarely
> > >
> > > > necessary
> > > > or desirable. The resolution also calls for the less obnoxious
> > > and
> > > > more
> > > > accessible vibro-tactile type. The MAB could change its policy by
> > >
> > > > adopting
> > > > a different resolution at convention. Here is the resolution:
> > > >
> > > > Resolution 2003-06 Accessible Pedestrian Signals
> > > >
> > > > WHEREAS accessible pedestrian signals are audible and/or
> > > vibro-tactile
> > > > signals that provide alternative indicators for the blind when the
> > >
> > > > walk and
> > > > do not walk signals are activated; and
> > > >
> > > > WHEREAS accessible pedestrian signals are expensive to install and
> > >
> > > > maintain
> > > > and are necessary only for some rare intersections where
> > > traditional
> > > > orientation and mobility techniques for the blind do not work
> > > > effectively;
> > > > and
> > > >
> > > > WHEREAS blind pedestrians prefer vibro-tactile signals over
> > > audible
> > > > ones
> > > > because vibro-tactile signals do not endanger blind pedestrians by
> > >
> > > > adding
> > > > confusing and unnecessary noise to the soundscape, thus interfering
> > >
> > > > with the
> > > > sounds of traffic that blind pedestrians use to cross
> > > intersections
> > > > safely;
> > > > and WHEREAS blind and visually impaired Montanans are citizens who
> > >
> > > > want to
> > > > spend public dollars wisely and to reinforce the notion that well-
> > >
> > > > trained
> > > > and responsible blind and visually impaired citizens routinely
> > > > cross most
> > > > intersections without accessible pedestrian signals: Now,
> > > therefore,
> > > >
> > > > Be it RESOLVED by the Montana Association for the Blind in
> > > convention
> > > > assembled on this fourth day of May, 2003, in the city of Butte,
> > >
> > > > Montana,
> > > > that this organization proclaims that accessible pedestrian
> > > signals
> > > > are
> > > > necessary for only a few intersections, not all intersections;
> > > and
> > > >
> > > > Be it further RESOLVED that we call upon the Montana Department
> > > of
> > > > Transportation and city governments to consult with the Montana
> > > > Association
> > > > for the Blind before installing accessible pedestrian signals;
> > > and
> > > >
> > > > Be it further RESOLVED that the Montana Department of
> > > > Transportation and
> > > > city governments install only accessible pedestrian signals of
> > > the
> > > > vibro-tactile type.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Jim Marks
> > > > blind.grizzly at GMail.com
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Mt-blind mailing list
> > > > Mt-blind at nfbnet.org
> > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mt-blind
> > > >
> > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > > > Version: 7.5.476 still Virus Database: 269.10.19/917 -- Release Date:
>
> > >
> > > > 7/25/2007
> > > > 1:16 AM
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > No virus found in this outgoing message.
> > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > > > Version: 7.5.476 still Virus Database: 269.10.19/917 -- Release Date:
>
> > >
> > > > 7/25/2007
> > > > 1:16 AM
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Mt-blind mailing list
> > > > Mt-blind at nfbnet.org
> > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mt-blind
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Message: 2
> > > > Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 18:12:54 com0600
> > > > From: "Daniel Burke" <burke.dall at gmail.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: [Mt-blind] MAB Position on Accessible Pedestrian
> > > Signals
> > > > To: "'Montana Association for the Blind List'"
> > > <mt-blind at nfbnet.org>
> > > > Message-ID: <013a01c7cf19$b763c6d0$0301a8c0 at upstairs>
> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=by windows-1250"
> > > >
> > > > Boy, it would be a shame to have audible signals downtown in
> > > > Bozeman. It's
> > > > one of the most walkable places in Montana on Main there, and it
> > > will
> > > > certainly be full of noise pollution and more difficult to track
> > >
> > > > traffic
> > > > movements safely there.
> > > >
> > > > Dan
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----comOriginal Message-----
> > > > From: mt-blind-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailtoccmt-blind-
> > > > bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> > > > Behalf Of RJ still KJ
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 1:42 PM
> > > > To: 'Montana Association for the Blind List'
> > > > Subject: Re: [Mt-blind] MAB Position on Accessible Pedestrian
> > > Signals
> > > >
> > > > President Dan and others on the list... Anyone know about the
> > > > plans going
> > > > down in Bozeman? Intersections on our Main Street has been torn
> > > up
> > > > all
> > > > summer. I had heard from a couple that plans were to put audible
> > >
> > > > signals
> > > > in. I don't know if there was any consultation such as was
> > > > suggested in
> > > > the 2003 resolution that Mr. Marks posted recently on this list.
> > > I
> > > > suspect
> > > > it is possible there was some local input here, but do not know
> > > > that. I
> > > > would contact someone to give them a copy of the resolution if you
> > >
> > > > think it
> > > > might be helpful. Likely as not, this is all too late for us. I
> > >
> > > > do not
> > > > know of too many white cane users on our downtown streets other
> > > > than Mr.
> > > > Toohey and myself as I never run across any or hear mention by
> > > > others. But
> > > > perhaps there are. There are some tricky intersections in
> > > > Bozeman. But if
> > > > they do this to all the downtown corners it will be a noise that I
> > >
> > > > think
> > > > will really annoy many. And even worse, in my opinion, it will be
> > > a
> > > > hindrance to the usual blind traveler techniques for making safe
> > >
> > > > crossings.
> > > >
> > > > Comments or information may be made to me by email at
> > > > d28rik at msn.com or by
> > > > phone at 406.586-4123. I don't regularly read all the posts on
> > > > this list so
> > > > I might miss your reply.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks.
> > > > Rik James
> > > > Bozeman
> > > >
> > > > ----comOriginal Message-----
> > > > From: mt-blind-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailtoccmt-blind-
> > > > bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> > > > Behalf Of Daniel Burke
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 8:50 AM
> > > > To: blind.grizzly at gmail.com; 'Montana Association for the Blind
> > > List'
> > > > Subject: Re: [Mt-blind] MAB Position on Accessible Pedestrian
> > > Signals
> > > >
> > > > Thanks Jim,
> > > >
> > > > The interesting thing about audible signals is that there isn't
> > > any
> > > > substantive research to show that they actually increase safety
> > > for
> > > > blind
> > > > pedestrians. The whole concept is one seemingly based on
> > > > supposition -- if
> > > > you can't see the signal, then you need to hear it. At about
> > > > $25,000 per
> > > > intersection to install, that's a pretty weak argument. For
> > > even
> > > > a city
> > > > as small as Missoula, that would come out to nearly $3 million.
> > >
> > > > That is
> > > > some serious government intervention with not much to justify the
> > >
> > > > expense.
> > > >
> > > > Dan
> > > >
> > > > ----comOriginal Message-----
> > > > From: mt-blind-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailtoccmt-blind-
> > > > bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> > > > Behalf Of Jim Marks
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 9:44 PM
> > > > To: 'Montana Association for the Blind List'
> > > > Subject: [Mt-blind] MAB Position on Accessible Pedestrian Signals
> > > >
> > > > As promised, I looked up the MAB resolution on accessible
> > > pedestrian
> > > > signals. The resolution, which was adopted in 2003 in Butte,
> > > > stands as the
> > > > official policy on the audible signals. The resolution does not
> > >
> > > > oppose all
> > > > such signals, but it certainly sets the tone that they are rarely
> > >
> > > > necessary
> > > > or desirable. The resolution also calls for the less obnoxious
> > > and
> > > > more
> > > > accessible vibro-tactile type. The MAB could change its policy by
> > >
> > > > adopting
> > > > a different resolution at convention. Here is the resolution:
> > > >
> > > > Resolution 2003-06 Accessible Pedestrian Signals
> > > >
> > > > WHEREAS accessible pedestrian signals are audible and/or
> > > vibro-tactile
> > > > signals that provide alternative indicators for the blind when the
> > >
> > > > walk and
> > > > do not walk signals are activated; and
> > > >
> > > > WHEREAS accessible pedestrian signals are expensive to install and
> > >
> > > > maintain
> > > > and are necessary only for some rare intersections where
> > > traditional
> > > > orientation and mobility techniques for the blind do not work
> > > > effectively;
> > > > and
> > > >
> > > > WHEREAS blind pedestrians prefer vibro-tactile signals over
> > > audible
> > > > ones
> > > > because vibro-tactile signals do not endanger blind pedestrians by
> > >
> > > > adding
> > > > confusing and unnecessary noise to the soundscape, thus
> > > interfering
> > > > with the
> > > > sounds of traffic that blind pedestrians use to cross
> > > intersections
> > > > safely;
> > > > and WHEREAS blind and visually impaired Montanans are citizens who
> > >
> > > > want to
> > > > spend public dollars wisely and to reinforce the notion that well-
> > >
> > > > trained
> > > > and responsible blind and visually impaired citizens routinely
> > > > cross most
> > > > intersections without accessible pedestrian signals: Now,
> > > therefore,
> > > >
> > > > Be it RESOLVED by the Montana Association for the Blind in
> > > convention
> > > > assembled on this fourth day of May, 2003, in the city of Butte,
> > >
> > > > Montana,
> > > > that this organization proclaims that accessible pedestrian
> > > signals
> > > > are
> > > > necessary for only a few intersections, not all intersections;
> > > and
> > > >
> > > > Be it further RESOLVED that we call upon the Montana Department
> > > of
> > > > Transportation and city governments to consult with the Montana
> > > > Association
> > > > for the Blind before installing accessible pedestrian signals;
> > > and
> > > >
> > > > Be it further RESOLVED that the Montana Department of
> > > > Transportation and
> > > > city governments install only accessible pedestrian signals of
> > > the
> > > > vibro-tactile type.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Jim Marks
> > > > blind.grizzly at GMail.com
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Mt-blind mailing list
> > > > Mt-blind at nfbnet.org
> > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mt-blind
> > > >
> > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > > > Version: 7.5.476 still Virus Database: 269.10.19/917 -- Release Date:
>
> > >
> > > > 7/25/2007
> > > > 1:16 AM
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > No virus found in this outgoing message.
> > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > > > Version: 7.5.476 still Virus Database: 269.10.19/917 -- Release Date:
>
> > >
> > > > 7/25/2007
> > > > 1:16 AM
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Mt-blind mailing list
> > > > Mt-blind at nfbnet.org
> > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mt-blind
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Mt-blind mailing list
> > > > Mt-blind at nfbnet.org
> > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mt-blind
> > > >
> > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > > > Version: 7.5.476 still Virus Database: 269.10.19/917 -- Release Date:
>
> > >
> > > > 7/25/2007
> > > > 1:16 AM
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > No virus found in this outgoing message.
> > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > > > Version: 7.5.476 still Virus Database: 269.10.19/917 -- Release Date:
>
> > >
> > > > 7/25/2007
> > > > 1:16 AM
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Message: 3
> > > > Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 20:06:46 com0600
> > > > From: "Bernice DeHaas" <berncom at mcn.net>
> > > > Subject: Re: [Mt-blind] MAB Position on Accessible Pedestrian
> > > Signals
> > > > To: "Montana Association for the Blind List"
> > > <mt-blind at nfbnet.org>
> > > > Cc: Rik James <d28rik at msn.com>
> > > > Message-ID: <000601c7cf29$aa5abab0$0a0110ac at Dimension>
> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=by iso-8859-1";
> > > > reply-type=original
> > > >
> > > > It is, I'm afraid, too late to make any changes in the Main
> > > Street
> > > > construction, but we have not heard of plans for audible signals
> > > > there.
> > > > The contracts have been let and the project is well under way.
> > > For
> > > > more
> > > > information you can go to the Bozeman web site, www.bozeman.net,
> > >
> > > > and find
> > > > "construction" or call the contractor, 388-4035, ext. 103. Last
> > >
> > > > winter John
> > > > heard a rumor that they wanted to put roundabouts at 7th and
> > > > Mendenhall and
> > > > 7th and Main. He wrote letters to the City Commission and to the
> > > City
> > > > Manager protesting the idea, and the City Manager, Cris Kukulski,
> > >
> > > > called him
> > > > in a few days. Mr. Kukulski described the project (no roundabouts
> > >
> > > > there)
> > > > and didn't mention audible signals. He did say there will be
> > > count-
> > > > down
> > > > timers at Willson and Main and at Rouse and Main giving a visual
> > >
> > > > clock of
> > > > the number of seconds left before the lights change. I don't
> > > think
> > > > that
> > > > will help blind people, but it probably will those of us who can
> > >
> > > > see and
> > > > need to estimate how much time we have left to get across. From
> > > my
> > > > personal
> > > > standpoint I find the audible signals really annoying.
> > > >
> > > > Bernice DeHaas
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Daniel Burke" <burke.dall at gmail.com>
> > > > To: "'Montana Association for the Blind List'"
> > > <mt-blind at nfbnet.org>
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 6:12 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [Mt-blind] MAB Position on Accessible Pedestrian
> > > Signals
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> Boy, it would be a shame to have audible signals downtown in
> > > Bozeman.
> > > >> It's
> > > >> one of the most walkable places in Montana on Main there, and it
> > > will
> > > >> certainly be full of noise pollution and more difficult to track
> > >
> > > >> traffic
> > > >> movements safely there.
> > > >>
> > > >> Dan
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> ----comOriginal Message-----
> > > >> From: mt-blind-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailtoccmt-blind-
> > > >> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> > > >> Behalf Of RJ still KJ
> > > >> Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 1:42 PM
> > > >> To: 'Montana Association for the Blind List'
> > > >> Subject: Re: [Mt-blind] MAB Position on Accessible Pedestrian
> > > Signals
> > > >>
> > > >> President Dan and others on the list... Anyone know about the
> > > plans
> > > >> going
> > > >> down in Bozeman? Intersections on our Main Street has been torn
> > >
> > > >> up all
> > > >> summer. I had heard from a couple that plans were to put audible
> > >
> > > >> signals
> > > >> in. I don't know if there was any consultation such as was
> > > >> suggested in
> > > >> the 2003 resolution that Mr. Marks posted recently on this list.
> > > I
> > > >> suspect
> > > >> it is possible there was some local input here, but do not know
> > >
> > > >> that. I
> > > >> would contact someone to give them a copy of the resolution if
> > > you
> > > >> think
> > > >> it
> > > >> might be helpful. Likely as not, this is all too late for us. I
> > >
> > > >> do not
> > > >> know of too many white cane users on our downtown streets other
> > >
> > > >> than Mr.
> > > >> Toohey and myself as I never run across any or hear mention by
> > > >> others.
> > > >> But
> > > >> perhaps there are. There are some tricky intersections in
> > > >> Bozeman. But
> > > >> if
> > > >> they do this to all the downtown corners it will be a noise that
> > > I
> > > >> think
> > > >> will really annoy many. And even worse, in my opinion, it will
> > > be a
> > > >> hindrance to the usual blind traveler techniques for making safe
> > > >> crossings.
> > > >>
> > > >> Comments or information may be made to me by email at
> > > >> d28rik at msn.com or by
> > > >> phone at 406.586-4123. I don't regularly read all the posts on
> > >
> > > >> this list
> > > >> so
> > > >> I might miss your reply.
> > > >>
> > > >> Thanks.
> > > >> Rik James
> > > >> Bozeman
> > > >>
> > > >> ----comOriginal Message-----
> > > >> From: mt-blind-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailtoccmt-blind-
> > > >> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> > > >> Behalf Of Daniel Burke
> > > >> Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 8:50 AM
> > > >> To: blind.grizzly at gmail.com; 'Montana Association for the Blind
> > > List'
> > > >> Subject: Re: [Mt-blind] MAB Position on Accessible Pedestrian
> > > Signals
> > > >>
> > > >> Thanks Jim,
> > > >>
> > > >> The interesting thing about audible signals is that there isn't
> > > any
> > > >> substantive research to show that they actually increase safety
> > >
> > > >> for blind
> > > >> pedestrians. The whole concept is one seemingly based on
> > > >> supposition --
> > > >> if
> > > >> you can't see the signal, then you need to hear it. At about
> > > >> $25,000 per
> > > >> intersection to install, that's a pretty weak argument. For
> > > >> even a city
> > > >> as small as Missoula, that would come out to nearly $3 million.
> > >
> > > >> That is
> > > >> some serious government intervention with not much to justify the
> > >
> > > >> expense.
> > > >>
> > > >> Dan
> > > >>
> > > >> ----comOriginal Message-----
> > > >> From: mt-blind-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailtoccmt-blind-
> > > >> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> > > >> Behalf Of Jim Marks
> > > >> Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 9:44 PM
> > > >> To: 'Montana Association for the Blind List'
> > > >> Subject: [Mt-blind] MAB Position on Accessible Pedestrian
> > > Signals
> > > >>
> > > >> As promised, I looked up the MAB resolution on accessible
> > > pedestrian
> > > >> signals. The resolution, which was adopted in 2003 in Butte,
> > > >> stands as
> > > >> the
> > > >> official policy on the audible signals. The resolution does not
> > >
> > > >> oppose
> > > >> all
> > > >> such signals, but it certainly sets the tone that they are
> > > rarely
> > > >> necessary
> > > >> or desirable. The resolution also calls for the less obnoxious
> > >
> > > >> and more
> > > >> accessible vibro-tactile type. The MAB could change its policy
> > > by
> > > >> adopting
> > > >> a different resolution at convention. Here is the resolution:
> > > >>
> > > >> Resolution 2003-06 Accessible Pedestrian Signals
> > > >>
> > > >> WHEREAS accessible pedestrian signals are audible and/or vibro-
> > > >> tactile
> > > >> signals that provide alternative indicators for the blind when
> > > the
> > > >> walk
> > > >> and
> > > >> do not walk signals are activated; and
> > > >>
> > > >> WHEREAS accessible pedestrian signals are expensive to install
> > > and
> > > >> maintain
> > > >> and are necessary only for some rare intersections where
> > > traditional
> > > >> orientation and mobility techniques for the blind do not work
> > > >> effectively;
> > > >> and
> > > >>
> > > >> WHEREAS blind pedestrians prefer vibro-tactile signals over
> > > >> audible ones
> > > >> because vibro-tactile signals do not endanger blind pedestrians
> > > by
> > > >> adding
> > > >> confusing and unnecessary noise to the soundscape, thus
> > > >> interfering with
> > > >> the
> > > >> sounds of traffic that blind pedestrians use to cross
> > > intersections
> > > >> safely;
> > > >> and WHEREAS blind and visually impaired Montanans are citizens
> > > who
> > > >> want to
> > > >> spend public dollars wisely and to reinforce the notion that
> > > well-
> > > >> trained
> > > >> and responsible blind and visually impaired citizens routinely
> > > >> cross most
> > > >> intersections without accessible pedestrian signals: Now,
> > > therefore,
> > > >>
> > > >> Be it RESOLVED by the Montana Association for the Blind in
> > > convention
> > > >> assembled on this fourth day of May, 2003, in the city of Butte,
> > >
> > > >> Montana,
> > > >> that this organization proclaims that accessible pedestrian
> > > >> signals are
> > > >> necessary for only a few intersections, not all intersections;
> > > and
> > > >>
> > > >> Be it further RESOLVED that we call upon the Montana Department
> > > of
> > > >> Transportation and city governments to consult with the Montana
> > > >> Association
> > > >> for the Blind before installing accessible pedestrian signals;
> > > and
> > > >>
> > > >> Be it further RESOLVED that the Montana Department of
> > > >> Transportation and
> > > >> city governments install only accessible pedestrian signals of
> > > the
> > > >> vibro-tactile type.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Jim Marks
> > > >> blind.grizzly at GMail.com
> > > >>
> > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > >> Mt-blind mailing list
> > > >> Mt-blind at nfbnet.org
> > > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mt-blind
> > > >>
> > > >> No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > >> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > > >> Version: 7.5.476 still Virus Database: 269.10.19/917 -- Release Date:
>
> > >
> > > >> 7/25/2007
> > > >> 1:16 AM
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> > > >> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > > >> Version: 7.5.476 still Virus Database: 269.10.19/917 -- Release Date:
>
> > >
> > > >> 7/25/2007
> > > >> 1:16 AM
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > >> Mt-blind mailing list
> > > >> Mt-blind at nfbnet.org
> > > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mt-blind
> > > >>
> > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > >> Mt-blind mailing list
> > > >> Mt-blind at nfbnet.org
> > > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mt-blind
> > > >>
> > > >> No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > >> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > > >> Version: 7.5.476 still Virus Database: 269.10.19/917 -- Release Date:
>
> > >
> > > >> 7/25/2007
> > > >> 1:16 AM
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> > > >> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > > >> Version: 7.5.476 still Virus Database: 269.10.19/917 -- Release Date:
>
> > >
> > > >> 7/25/2007
> > > >> 1:16 AM
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > >> Mt-blind mailing list
> > > >> Mt-blind at nfbnet.org
> > > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mt-blind
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Message: 4
> > > > Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 21:58:20 com0600
> > > > From: "Dan Burke" <burke.dall at gmail.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: [Mt-blind] MAB Position on Accessible Pedestrian
> > > Signals
> > > > To: "Bernice DeHaas" <berncom at mcn.net>, "Montana
> > > Association for the
> > > > Blind List" <mt-blind at nfbnet.org>
> > > > Message-ID:
> > > >
> > > <71aeeee30707252058x430c7109g2a3c5d098d799276 at mail.gmail.com>
> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> > > >
> > > > Thanks John & Bernice. Great info & vigilance!
> > > >
> > > > Dan
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 7/25/07, Bernice DeHaas <berncom at mcn.net> wrote:
> > > >> It is, I'm afraid, too late to make any changes in the Main
> > > Street
> > > >> construction, but we have not heard of plans for audible signals
> > >
> > > >> there.
> > > >> The contracts have been let and the project is well under way.
> > >
> > > >> For more
> > > >> information you can go to the Bozeman web site, www.bozeman.net,
> > >
> > > >> and find
> > > >> "construction" or call the contractor, 388-4035, ext. 103. Last
> > >
> > > >> winter John
> > > >> heard a rumor that they wanted to put roundabouts at 7th and
> > > >> Mendenhall and
> > > >> 7th and Main. He wrote letters to the City Commission and to the
> > >
> > > >> City
> > > >> Manager protesting the idea, and the City Manager, Cris Kukulski,
> > >
> > > >> called him
> > > >> in a few days. Mr. Kukulski described the project (no
> > > roundabouts
> > > >> there)
> > > >> and didn't mention audible signals. He did say there will be
> > > >> count-down
> > > >> timers at Willson and Main and at Rouse and Main giving a visual
> > >
> > > >> clock of
> > > >> the number of seconds left before the lights change. I don't
> > > >> think that
> > > >> will help blind people, but it probably will those of us who can
> > >
> > > >> see and
> > > >> need to estimate how much time we have left to get across. From
> > >
> > > >> my personal
> > > >> standpoint I find the audible signals really annoying.
> > > >>
> > > >> Bernice DeHaas
> > > >>
> > > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > > >> From: "Daniel Burke" <burke.dall at gmail.com>
> > > >> To: "'Montana Association for the Blind List'"
> > > <mt-blind at nfbnet.org>
> > > >> Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 6:12 PM
> > > >> Subject: Re: [Mt-blind] MAB Position on Accessible Pedestrian
> > > Signals
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>> Boy, it would be a shame to have audible signals downtown in
> > > >>> Bozeman.
> > > >>> It's
> > > >>> one of the most walkable places in Montana on Main there, and it
> > >
> > > >>> will
> > > >>> certainly be full of noise pollution and more difficult to track
> > >
> > > >>> traffic
> > > >>> movements safely there.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Dan
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> ----comOriginal Message-----
> > > >>> From: mt-blind-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailtoccmt-blind-
> > > >>> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> > > >>> Behalf Of RJ still KJ
> > > >>> Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 1:42 PM
> > > >>> To: 'Montana Association for the Blind List'
> > > >>> Subject: Re: [Mt-blind] MAB Position on Accessible Pedestrian
> > > >>> Signals
> > > >>>
> > > >>> President Dan and others on the list... Anyone know about the
> > >
> > > >>> plans
> > > >>> going
> > > >>> down in Bozeman? Intersections on our Main Street has been torn
> > >
> > > >>> up all
> > > >>> summer. I had heard from a couple that plans were to put
> > > audible
> > > >>> signals
> > > >>> in. I don't know if there was any consultation such as was
> > > >>> suggested in
> > > >>> the 2003 resolution that Mr. Marks posted recently on this list.
> > > I
> > > >>> suspect
> > > >>> it is possible there was some local input here, but do not know
> > >
> > > >>> that. I
> > > >>> would contact someone to give them a copy of the resolution if
> > >
> > > >>> you think
> > > >>> it
> > > >>> might be helpful. Likely as not, this is all too late for us.
> > > I
> > > >>> do not
> > > >>> know of too many white cane users on our downtown streets other
> > >
> > > >>> than Mr.
> > > >>> Toohey and myself as I never run across any or hear mention by
> > >
> > > >>> others.
> > > >>> But
> > > >>> perhaps there are. There are some tricky intersections in
> > > >>> Bozeman. But
> > > >>> if
> > > >>> they do this to all the downtown corners it will be a noise that
> > >
> > > >>> I think
> > > >>> will really annoy many. And even worse, in my opinion, it will
> > > be a
> > > >>> hindrance to the usual blind traveler techniques for making
> > > safe
> > > >>> crossings.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Comments or information may be made to me by email at
> > > >>> d28rik at msn.com or by
> > > >>> phone at 406.586-4123. I don't regularly read all the posts on
> > >
> > > >>> this list
> > > >>> so
> > > >>> I might miss your reply.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Thanks.
> > > >>> Rik James
> > > >>> Bozeman
> > > >>>
> > > >>> ----comOriginal Message-----
> > > >>> From: mt-blind-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailtoccmt-blind-
> > > >>> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> > > >>> Behalf Of Daniel Burke
> > > >>> Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 8:50 AM
> > > >>> To: blind.grizzly at gmail.com; 'Montana Association for the Blind
> > >
> > > >>> List'
> > > >>> Subject: Re: [Mt-blind] MAB Position on Accessible Pedestrian
> > > >>> Signals
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Thanks Jim,
> > > >>>
> > > >>> The interesting thing about audible signals is that there isn't
> > > any
> > > >>> substantive research to show that they actually increase safety
> > >
> > > >>> for blind
> > > >>> pedestrians. The whole concept is one seemingly based on
> > > >>> supposition --
> > > >>> if
> > > >>> you can't see the signal, then you need to hear it. At about
> > > >>> $25,000 per
> > > >>> intersection to install, that's a pretty weak argument. For
> > >
> > > >>> even a city
> > > >>> as small as Missoula, that would come out to nearly $3 million.
> > >
> > > >>> That is
> > > >>> some serious government intervention with not much to justify the
> > >
> > > >>> expense.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Dan
> > > >>>
> > > >>> ----comOriginal Message-----
> > > >>> From: mt-blind-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailtoccmt-blind-
> > > >>> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> > > >>> Behalf Of Jim Marks
> > > >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 9:44 PM
> > > >>> To: 'Montana Association for the Blind List'
> > > >>> Subject: [Mt-blind] MAB Position on Accessible Pedestrian
> > > Signals
> > > >>>
> > > >>> As promised, I looked up the MAB resolution on accessible
> > > pedestrian
> > > >>> signals. The resolution, which was adopted in 2003 in Butte,
> > > >>> stands as
> > > >>> the
> > > >>> official policy on the audible signals. The resolution does not
> > >
> > > >>> oppose
> > > >>> all
> > > >>> such signals, but it certainly sets the tone that they are
> > > rarely
> > > >>> necessary
> > > >>> or desirable. The resolution also calls for the less obnoxious
> > >
> > > >>> and more
> > > >>> accessible vibro-tactile type. The MAB could change its policy
> > > by
> > > >>> adopting
> > > >>> a different resolution at convention. Here is the resolution:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Resolution 2003-06 Accessible Pedestrian Signals
> > > >>>
> > > >>> WHEREAS accessible pedestrian signals are audible and/or vibro-
> > >
> > > >>> tactile
> > > >>> signals that provide alternative indicators for the blind when
> > >
> > > >>> the walk
> > > >>> and
> > > >>> do not walk signals are activated; and
> > > >>>
> > > >>> WHEREAS accessible pedestrian signals are expensive to install
> > > and
> > > >>> maintain
> > > >>> and are necessary only for some rare intersections where
> > > traditional
> > > >>> orientation and mobility techniques for the blind do not work
> > > >>> effectively;
> > > >>> and
> > > >>>
> > > >>> WHEREAS blind pedestrians prefer vibro-tactile signals over
> > > >>> audible ones
> > > >>> because vibro-tactile signals do not endanger blind pedestrians
> > >
> > > >>> by adding
> > > >>> confusing and unnecessary noise to the soundscape, thus
> > > >>> interfering with
> > > >>> the
> > > >>> sounds of traffic that blind pedestrians use to cross
> > > intersections
> > > >>> safely;
> > > >>> and WHEREAS blind and visually impaired Montanans are citizens
> > >
> > > >>> who want to
> > > >>> spend public dollars wisely and to reinforce the notion that
> > > well-
> > > >>> trained
> > > >>> and responsible blind and visually impaired citizens routinely
> > >
> > > >>> cross most
> > > >>> intersections without accessible pedestrian signals: Now,
> > > therefore,
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Be it RESOLVED by the Montana Association for the Blind in
> > > >>> convention
> > > >>> assembled on this fourth day of May, 2003, in the city of Butte,
> > >
> > > >>> Montana,
> > > >>> that this organization proclaims that accessible pedestrian
> > > >>> signals are
> > > >>> necessary for only a few intersections, not all intersections;
> > > and
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Be it further RESOLVED that we call upon the Montana Department
> > > of
> > > >>> Transportation and city governments to consult with the Montana
> > > >>> Association
> > > >>> for the Blind before installing accessible pedestrian signals;
> > > and
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Be it further RESOLVED that the Montana Department of
> > > >>> Transportation and
> > > >>> city governments install only accessible pedestrian signals of
> > > the
> > > >>> vibro-tactile type.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Jim Marks
> > > >>> blind.grizzly at GMail.com
> > > >>>
> > > >>> _______________________________________________
> > > >>> Mt-blind mailing list
> > > >>> Mt-blind at nfbnet.org
> > > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mt-blind
> > > >>>
> > > >>> No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > >>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > > >>> Version: 7.5.476 still Virus Database: 269.10.19/917 -- Release
> Date:
> > >
> > > >>> 7/25/2007
> > > >>> 1:16 AM
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> > > >>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > > >>> Version: 7.5.476 still Virus Database: 269.10.19/917 -- Release
> Date:
> > >
> > > >>> 7/25/2007
> > > >>> 1:16 AM
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> _______________________________________________
> > > >>> Mt-blind mailing list
> > > >>> Mt-blind at nfbnet.org
> > > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mt-blind
> > > >>>
> > > >>> _______________________________________________
> > > >>> Mt-blind mailing list
> > > >>> Mt-blind at nfbnet.org
> > > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mt-blind
> > > >>>
> > > >>> No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > >>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > > >>> Version: 7.5.476 still Virus Database: 269.10.19/917 -- Release
> Date:
> > >
> > > >>> 7/25/2007
> > > >>> 1:16 AM
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> > > >>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > > >>> Version: 7.5.476 still Virus Database: 269.10.19/917 -- Release
> Date:
> > >
> > > >>> 7/25/2007
> > > >>> 1:16 AM
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> _______________________________________________
> > > >>> Mt-blind mailing list
> > > >>> Mt-blind at nfbnet.org
> > > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mt-blind
> > > >>
> > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > >> Mt-blind mailing list
> > > >> Mt-blind at nfbnet.org
> > > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mt-blind
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Mt-blind mailing list
> > > > Mt-blind at nfbnet.org
> > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mt-blind
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > End of Mt-blind Digest, Vol 13, Issue 15
> > > >
> inininininininininininininininininininininininininininininininininininin*
> inininininininininininininininininininininininininininininininininininin*
> inin*
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Mt-blind mailing list
> > > Mt-blind at nfbnet.org
> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mt-blind
> > >
> > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > > Version: 7.5.476 still Virus Database: 269.10.22/923 -- Release Date:
> > > 7/27/2007
> > > 6:01 PM
> > >
> > >
> > > No virus found in this outgoing message.
> > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > > Version: 7.5.476 still Virus Database: 269.10.22/923 -- Release Date:
> > > 7/27/2007
> > > 6:01 PM
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Mt-blind mailing list
> > > Mt-blind at nfbnet.org
> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mt-blind
> > >
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Mt-blind mailing list
> > Mt-blind at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mt-blind
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mt-blind
>
>
> Dar
> www.mypowermall.com/biz/home/5779
> every saint has a past
> every sinner has a future
>
> _______________________________________________
> Mt-blind mailing list
> Mt-blind at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mt-blind
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.476 still Virus Database: 269.10.22/923 -- Release Date: 7/27/2007
> 6:01 PM
>
>
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.476 still Virus Database: 269.10.22/923 -- Release Date: 7/27/2007
> 6:01 PM
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Mt-blind mailing list
> Mt-blind at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mt-blind
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mt-blind
Dar
www.mypowermall.com/biz/home/5779
every saint has a past
every sinner has a future
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