[Mt-blind] Mt-blind Digest, Vol 13, Issue 15
Nancy Cormier
nanecor at bresnan.net
Fri Jul 27 22:16:01 CDT 2007
More on audible signals....
This is not research but a true story that teaches a good lesson. In
Austin, TX I was working with a consumer at a very busy
intersection. My instructions were to wait for the appropriate
surge. She insisted on using the audible signal. She knew the
appropriate surge to travel with but was listening for the audible
signal. The signal went off. As she started to step onto the
street the perpendicular traffic started to move. I pulled her to
safety and she immediately realized the signal she heard was for the
other direction. There was never any doubt after that incident
that she had to listen for the appropriate surge which comes after
the audible signal starts.
Nancy Cormier
On Jul 25, 2007, at 9:50 PM, mt-blind-request at nfbnet.org wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: MAB Position on Accessible Pedestrian Signals (RJ / KJ)
> 2. Re: MAB Position on Accessible Pedestrian Signals (Daniel Burke)
> 3. Re: MAB Position on Accessible Pedestrian Signals
> (Bernice DeHaas)
> 4. Re: MAB Position on Accessible Pedestrian Signals (Dan Burke)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 13:41:36 -0600
> From: "RJ / KJ" <d28rik at msn.com>
> Subject: Re: [Mt-blind] MAB Position on Accessible Pedestrian Signals
> To: "'Montana Association for the Blind List'" <mt-blind at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <BAY106-DAV414631C7823513F3E2CEADBF10 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> President Dan and others on the list... Anyone know about the
> plans going
> down in Bozeman? Intersections on our Main Street has been torn up
> all
> summer. I had heard from a couple that plans were to put audible
> signals
> in. I don't know if there was any consultation such as was
> suggested in
> the 2003 resolution that Mr. Marks posted recently on this list. I
> suspect
> it is possible there was some local input here, but do not know
> that. I
> would contact someone to give them a copy of the resolution if you
> think it
> might be helpful. Likely as not, this is all too late for us. I
> do not
> know of too many white cane users on our downtown streets other
> than Mr.
> Toohey and myself as I never run across any or hear mention by
> others. But
> perhaps there are. There are some tricky intersections in
> Bozeman. But if
> they do this to all the downtown corners it will be a noise that I
> think
> will really annoy many. And even worse, in my opinion, it will be a
> hindrance to the usual blind traveler techniques for making safe
> crossings.
>
> Comments or information may be made to me by email at
> d28rik at msn.com or by
> phone at 406.586-4123. I don't regularly read all the posts on
> this list so
> I might miss your reply.
>
> Thanks.
> Rik James
> Bozeman
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mt-blind-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:mt-blind-
> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Daniel Burke
> Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 8:50 AM
> To: blind.grizzly at gmail.com; 'Montana Association for the Blind List'
> Subject: Re: [Mt-blind] MAB Position on Accessible Pedestrian Signals
>
> Thanks Jim,
>
> The interesting thing about audible signals is that there isn't any
> substantive research to show that they actually increase safety for
> blind
> pedestrians. The whole concept is one seemingly based on
> supposition -- if
> you can't see the signal, then you need to hear it. At about
> $25,000 per
> intersection to install, that's a pretty weak argument. For even
> a city
> as small as Missoula, that would come out to nearly $3 million.
> That is
> some serious government intervention with not much to justify the
> expense.
>
> Dan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mt-blind-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:mt-blind-
> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Jim Marks
> Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 9:44 PM
> To: 'Montana Association for the Blind List'
> Subject: [Mt-blind] MAB Position on Accessible Pedestrian Signals
>
> As promised, I looked up the MAB resolution on accessible pedestrian
> signals. The resolution, which was adopted in 2003 in Butte,
> stands as the
> official policy on the audible signals. The resolution does not
> oppose all
> such signals, but it certainly sets the tone that they are rarely
> necessary
> or desirable. The resolution also calls for the less obnoxious and
> more
> accessible vibro-tactile type. The MAB could change its policy by
> adopting
> a different resolution at convention. Here is the resolution:
>
> Resolution 2003-06 Accessible Pedestrian Signals
>
> WHEREAS accessible pedestrian signals are audible and/or vibro-tactile
> signals that provide alternative indicators for the blind when the
> walk and
> do not walk signals are activated; and
>
> WHEREAS accessible pedestrian signals are expensive to install and
> maintain
> and are necessary only for some rare intersections where traditional
> orientation and mobility techniques for the blind do not work
> effectively;
> and
>
> WHEREAS blind pedestrians prefer vibro-tactile signals over audible
> ones
> because vibro-tactile signals do not endanger blind pedestrians by
> adding
> confusing and unnecessary noise to the soundscape, thus interfering
> with the
> sounds of traffic that blind pedestrians use to cross intersections
> safely;
> and WHEREAS blind and visually impaired Montanans are citizens who
> want to
> spend public dollars wisely and to reinforce the notion that well-
> trained
> and responsible blind and visually impaired citizens routinely
> cross most
> intersections without accessible pedestrian signals: Now, therefore,
>
> Be it RESOLVED by the Montana Association for the Blind in convention
> assembled on this fourth day of May, 2003, in the city of Butte,
> Montana,
> that this organization proclaims that accessible pedestrian signals
> are
> necessary for only a few intersections, not all intersections; and
>
> Be it further RESOLVED that we call upon the Montana Department of
> Transportation and city governments to consult with the Montana
> Association
> for the Blind before installing accessible pedestrian signals; and
>
> Be it further RESOLVED that the Montana Department of
> Transportation and
> city governments install only accessible pedestrian signals of the
> vibro-tactile type.
>
>
> Jim Marks
> blind.grizzly at GMail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Mt-blind mailing list
> Mt-blind at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mt-blind
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.19/917 - Release Date:
> 7/25/2007
> 1:16 AM
>
>
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> 1:16 AM
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> _______________________________________________
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>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 18:12:54 -0600
> From: "Daniel Burke" <burke.dall at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Mt-blind] MAB Position on Accessible Pedestrian Signals
> To: "'Montana Association for the Blind List'" <mt-blind at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <013a01c7cf19$b763c6d0$0301a8c0 at upstairs>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250"
>
> Boy, it would be a shame to have audible signals downtown in
> Bozeman. It's
> one of the most walkable places in Montana on Main there, and it will
> certainly be full of noise pollution and more difficult to track
> traffic
> movements safely there.
>
> Dan
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mt-blind-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:mt-blind-
> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of RJ / KJ
> Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 1:42 PM
> To: 'Montana Association for the Blind List'
> Subject: Re: [Mt-blind] MAB Position on Accessible Pedestrian Signals
>
> President Dan and others on the list... Anyone know about the
> plans going
> down in Bozeman? Intersections on our Main Street has been torn up
> all
> summer. I had heard from a couple that plans were to put audible
> signals
> in. I don't know if there was any consultation such as was
> suggested in
> the 2003 resolution that Mr. Marks posted recently on this list. I
> suspect
> it is possible there was some local input here, but do not know
> that. I
> would contact someone to give them a copy of the resolution if you
> think it
> might be helpful. Likely as not, this is all too late for us. I
> do not
> know of too many white cane users on our downtown streets other
> than Mr.
> Toohey and myself as I never run across any or hear mention by
> others. But
> perhaps there are. There are some tricky intersections in
> Bozeman. But if
> they do this to all the downtown corners it will be a noise that I
> think
> will really annoy many. And even worse, in my opinion, it will be a
> hindrance to the usual blind traveler techniques for making safe
> crossings.
>
> Comments or information may be made to me by email at
> d28rik at msn.com or by
> phone at 406.586-4123. I don't regularly read all the posts on
> this list so
> I might miss your reply.
>
> Thanks.
> Rik James
> Bozeman
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mt-blind-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:mt-blind-
> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Daniel Burke
> Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 8:50 AM
> To: blind.grizzly at gmail.com; 'Montana Association for the Blind List'
> Subject: Re: [Mt-blind] MAB Position on Accessible Pedestrian Signals
>
> Thanks Jim,
>
> The interesting thing about audible signals is that there isn't any
> substantive research to show that they actually increase safety for
> blind
> pedestrians. The whole concept is one seemingly based on
> supposition -- if
> you can't see the signal, then you need to hear it. At about
> $25,000 per
> intersection to install, that's a pretty weak argument. For even
> a city
> as small as Missoula, that would come out to nearly $3 million.
> That is
> some serious government intervention with not much to justify the
> expense.
>
> Dan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mt-blind-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:mt-blind-
> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Jim Marks
> Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 9:44 PM
> To: 'Montana Association for the Blind List'
> Subject: [Mt-blind] MAB Position on Accessible Pedestrian Signals
>
> As promised, I looked up the MAB resolution on accessible pedestrian
> signals. The resolution, which was adopted in 2003 in Butte,
> stands as the
> official policy on the audible signals. The resolution does not
> oppose all
> such signals, but it certainly sets the tone that they are rarely
> necessary
> or desirable. The resolution also calls for the less obnoxious and
> more
> accessible vibro-tactile type. The MAB could change its policy by
> adopting
> a different resolution at convention. Here is the resolution:
>
> Resolution 2003-06 Accessible Pedestrian Signals
>
> WHEREAS accessible pedestrian signals are audible and/or vibro-tactile
> signals that provide alternative indicators for the blind when the
> walk and
> do not walk signals are activated; and
>
> WHEREAS accessible pedestrian signals are expensive to install and
> maintain
> and are necessary only for some rare intersections where traditional
> orientation and mobility techniques for the blind do not work
> effectively;
> and
>
> WHEREAS blind pedestrians prefer vibro-tactile signals over audible
> ones
> because vibro-tactile signals do not endanger blind pedestrians by
> adding
> confusing and unnecessary noise to the soundscape, thus interfering
> with the
> sounds of traffic that blind pedestrians use to cross intersections
> safely;
> and WHEREAS blind and visually impaired Montanans are citizens who
> want to
> spend public dollars wisely and to reinforce the notion that well-
> trained
> and responsible blind and visually impaired citizens routinely
> cross most
> intersections without accessible pedestrian signals: Now, therefore,
>
> Be it RESOLVED by the Montana Association for the Blind in convention
> assembled on this fourth day of May, 2003, in the city of Butte,
> Montana,
> that this organization proclaims that accessible pedestrian signals
> are
> necessary for only a few intersections, not all intersections; and
>
> Be it further RESOLVED that we call upon the Montana Department of
> Transportation and city governments to consult with the Montana
> Association
> for the Blind before installing accessible pedestrian signals; and
>
> Be it further RESOLVED that the Montana Department of
> Transportation and
> city governments install only accessible pedestrian signals of the
> vibro-tactile type.
>
>
> Jim Marks
> blind.grizzly at GMail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Mt-blind mailing list
> Mt-blind at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mt-blind
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.19/917 - Release Date:
> 7/25/2007
> 1:16 AM
>
>
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.19/917 - Release Date:
> 7/25/2007
> 1:16 AM
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Mt-blind mailing list
> Mt-blind at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mt-blind
>
> _______________________________________________
> Mt-blind mailing list
> Mt-blind at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mt-blind
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.19/917 - Release Date:
> 7/25/2007
> 1:16 AM
>
>
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.19/917 - Release Date:
> 7/25/2007
> 1:16 AM
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 20:06:46 -0600
> From: "Bernice DeHaas" <berncom at mcn.net>
> Subject: Re: [Mt-blind] MAB Position on Accessible Pedestrian Signals
> To: "Montana Association for the Blind List" <mt-blind at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Rik James <d28rik at msn.com>
> Message-ID: <000601c7cf29$aa5abab0$0a0110ac at Dimension>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
> It is, I'm afraid, too late to make any changes in the Main Street
> construction, but we have not heard of plans for audible signals
> there.
> The contracts have been let and the project is well under way. For
> more
> information you can go to the Bozeman web site, www.bozeman.net,
> and find
> "construction" or call the contractor, 388-4035, ext. 103. Last
> winter John
> heard a rumor that they wanted to put roundabouts at 7th and
> Mendenhall and
> 7th and Main. He wrote letters to the City Commission and to the City
> Manager protesting the idea, and the City Manager, Cris Kukulski,
> called him
> in a few days. Mr. Kukulski described the project (no roundabouts
> there)
> and didn't mention audible signals. He did say there will be count-
> down
> timers at Willson and Main and at Rouse and Main giving a visual
> clock of
> the number of seconds left before the lights change. I don't think
> that
> will help blind people, but it probably will those of us who can
> see and
> need to estimate how much time we have left to get across. From my
> personal
> standpoint I find the audible signals really annoying.
>
> Bernice DeHaas
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Daniel Burke" <burke.dall at gmail.com>
> To: "'Montana Association for the Blind List'" <mt-blind at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 6:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [Mt-blind] MAB Position on Accessible Pedestrian Signals
>
>
>> Boy, it would be a shame to have audible signals downtown in Bozeman.
>> It's
>> one of the most walkable places in Montana on Main there, and it will
>> certainly be full of noise pollution and more difficult to track
>> traffic
>> movements safely there.
>>
>> Dan
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: mt-blind-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:mt-blind-
>> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of RJ / KJ
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 1:42 PM
>> To: 'Montana Association for the Blind List'
>> Subject: Re: [Mt-blind] MAB Position on Accessible Pedestrian Signals
>>
>> President Dan and others on the list... Anyone know about the plans
>> going
>> down in Bozeman? Intersections on our Main Street has been torn
>> up all
>> summer. I had heard from a couple that plans were to put audible
>> signals
>> in. I don't know if there was any consultation such as was
>> suggested in
>> the 2003 resolution that Mr. Marks posted recently on this list. I
>> suspect
>> it is possible there was some local input here, but do not know
>> that. I
>> would contact someone to give them a copy of the resolution if you
>> think
>> it
>> might be helpful. Likely as not, this is all too late for us. I
>> do not
>> know of too many white cane users on our downtown streets other
>> than Mr.
>> Toohey and myself as I never run across any or hear mention by
>> others.
>> But
>> perhaps there are. There are some tricky intersections in
>> Bozeman. But
>> if
>> they do this to all the downtown corners it will be a noise that I
>> think
>> will really annoy many. And even worse, in my opinion, it will be a
>> hindrance to the usual blind traveler techniques for making safe
>> crossings.
>>
>> Comments or information may be made to me by email at
>> d28rik at msn.com or by
>> phone at 406.586-4123. I don't regularly read all the posts on
>> this list
>> so
>> I might miss your reply.
>>
>> Thanks.
>> Rik James
>> Bozeman
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: mt-blind-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:mt-blind-
>> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Daniel Burke
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 8:50 AM
>> To: blind.grizzly at gmail.com; 'Montana Association for the Blind List'
>> Subject: Re: [Mt-blind] MAB Position on Accessible Pedestrian Signals
>>
>> Thanks Jim,
>>
>> The interesting thing about audible signals is that there isn't any
>> substantive research to show that they actually increase safety
>> for blind
>> pedestrians. The whole concept is one seemingly based on
>> supposition --
>> if
>> you can't see the signal, then you need to hear it. At about
>> $25,000 per
>> intersection to install, that's a pretty weak argument. For
>> even a city
>> as small as Missoula, that would come out to nearly $3 million.
>> That is
>> some serious government intervention with not much to justify the
>> expense.
>>
>> Dan
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: mt-blind-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:mt-blind-
>> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Jim Marks
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 9:44 PM
>> To: 'Montana Association for the Blind List'
>> Subject: [Mt-blind] MAB Position on Accessible Pedestrian Signals
>>
>> As promised, I looked up the MAB resolution on accessible pedestrian
>> signals. The resolution, which was adopted in 2003 in Butte,
>> stands as
>> the
>> official policy on the audible signals. The resolution does not
>> oppose
>> all
>> such signals, but it certainly sets the tone that they are rarely
>> necessary
>> or desirable. The resolution also calls for the less obnoxious
>> and more
>> accessible vibro-tactile type. The MAB could change its policy by
>> adopting
>> a different resolution at convention. Here is the resolution:
>>
>> Resolution 2003-06 Accessible Pedestrian Signals
>>
>> WHEREAS accessible pedestrian signals are audible and/or vibro-
>> tactile
>> signals that provide alternative indicators for the blind when the
>> walk
>> and
>> do not walk signals are activated; and
>>
>> WHEREAS accessible pedestrian signals are expensive to install and
>> maintain
>> and are necessary only for some rare intersections where traditional
>> orientation and mobility techniques for the blind do not work
>> effectively;
>> and
>>
>> WHEREAS blind pedestrians prefer vibro-tactile signals over
>> audible ones
>> because vibro-tactile signals do not endanger blind pedestrians by
>> adding
>> confusing and unnecessary noise to the soundscape, thus
>> interfering with
>> the
>> sounds of traffic that blind pedestrians use to cross intersections
>> safely;
>> and WHEREAS blind and visually impaired Montanans are citizens who
>> want to
>> spend public dollars wisely and to reinforce the notion that well-
>> trained
>> and responsible blind and visually impaired citizens routinely
>> cross most
>> intersections without accessible pedestrian signals: Now, therefore,
>>
>> Be it RESOLVED by the Montana Association for the Blind in convention
>> assembled on this fourth day of May, 2003, in the city of Butte,
>> Montana,
>> that this organization proclaims that accessible pedestrian
>> signals are
>> necessary for only a few intersections, not all intersections; and
>>
>> Be it further RESOLVED that we call upon the Montana Department of
>> Transportation and city governments to consult with the Montana
>> Association
>> for the Blind before installing accessible pedestrian signals; and
>>
>> Be it further RESOLVED that the Montana Department of
>> Transportation and
>> city governments install only accessible pedestrian signals of the
>> vibro-tactile type.
>>
>>
>> Jim Marks
>> blind.grizzly at GMail.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Mt-blind mailing list
>> Mt-blind at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mt-blind
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.19/917 - Release Date:
>> 7/25/2007
>> 1:16 AM
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this outgoing message.
>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.19/917 - Release Date:
>> 7/25/2007
>> 1:16 AM
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Mt-blind mailing list
>> Mt-blind at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mt-blind
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Mt-blind mailing list
>> Mt-blind at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mt-blind
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.19/917 - Release Date:
>> 7/25/2007
>> 1:16 AM
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this outgoing message.
>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.19/917 - Release Date:
>> 7/25/2007
>> 1:16 AM
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Mt-blind mailing list
>> Mt-blind at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mt-blind
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 21:58:20 -0600
> From: "Dan Burke" <burke.dall at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Mt-blind] MAB Position on Accessible Pedestrian Signals
> To: "Bernice DeHaas" <berncom at mcn.net>, "Montana Association for the
> Blind List" <mt-blind at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID:
> <71aeeee30707252058x430c7109g2a3c5d098d799276 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Thanks John & Bernice. Great info & vigilance!
>
> Dan
>
>
> On 7/25/07, Bernice DeHaas <berncom at mcn.net> wrote:
>> It is, I'm afraid, too late to make any changes in the Main Street
>> construction, but we have not heard of plans for audible signals
>> there.
>> The contracts have been let and the project is well under way.
>> For more
>> information you can go to the Bozeman web site, www.bozeman.net,
>> and find
>> "construction" or call the contractor, 388-4035, ext. 103. Last
>> winter John
>> heard a rumor that they wanted to put roundabouts at 7th and
>> Mendenhall and
>> 7th and Main. He wrote letters to the City Commission and to the
>> City
>> Manager protesting the idea, and the City Manager, Cris Kukulski,
>> called him
>> in a few days. Mr. Kukulski described the project (no roundabouts
>> there)
>> and didn't mention audible signals. He did say there will be
>> count-down
>> timers at Willson and Main and at Rouse and Main giving a visual
>> clock of
>> the number of seconds left before the lights change. I don't
>> think that
>> will help blind people, but it probably will those of us who can
>> see and
>> need to estimate how much time we have left to get across. From
>> my personal
>> standpoint I find the audible signals really annoying.
>>
>> Bernice DeHaas
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Daniel Burke" <burke.dall at gmail.com>
>> To: "'Montana Association for the Blind List'" <mt-blind at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 6:12 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Mt-blind] MAB Position on Accessible Pedestrian Signals
>>
>>
>>> Boy, it would be a shame to have audible signals downtown in
>>> Bozeman.
>>> It's
>>> one of the most walkable places in Montana on Main there, and it
>>> will
>>> certainly be full of noise pollution and more difficult to track
>>> traffic
>>> movements safely there.
>>>
>>> Dan
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: mt-blind-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:mt-blind-
>>> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf Of RJ / KJ
>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 1:42 PM
>>> To: 'Montana Association for the Blind List'
>>> Subject: Re: [Mt-blind] MAB Position on Accessible Pedestrian
>>> Signals
>>>
>>> President Dan and others on the list... Anyone know about the
>>> plans
>>> going
>>> down in Bozeman? Intersections on our Main Street has been torn
>>> up all
>>> summer. I had heard from a couple that plans were to put audible
>>> signals
>>> in. I don't know if there was any consultation such as was
>>> suggested in
>>> the 2003 resolution that Mr. Marks posted recently on this list. I
>>> suspect
>>> it is possible there was some local input here, but do not know
>>> that. I
>>> would contact someone to give them a copy of the resolution if
>>> you think
>>> it
>>> might be helpful. Likely as not, this is all too late for us. I
>>> do not
>>> know of too many white cane users on our downtown streets other
>>> than Mr.
>>> Toohey and myself as I never run across any or hear mention by
>>> others.
>>> But
>>> perhaps there are. There are some tricky intersections in
>>> Bozeman. But
>>> if
>>> they do this to all the downtown corners it will be a noise that
>>> I think
>>> will really annoy many. And even worse, in my opinion, it will be a
>>> hindrance to the usual blind traveler techniques for making safe
>>> crossings.
>>>
>>> Comments or information may be made to me by email at
>>> d28rik at msn.com or by
>>> phone at 406.586-4123. I don't regularly read all the posts on
>>> this list
>>> so
>>> I might miss your reply.
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>> Rik James
>>> Bozeman
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: mt-blind-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:mt-blind-
>>> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Daniel Burke
>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 8:50 AM
>>> To: blind.grizzly at gmail.com; 'Montana Association for the Blind
>>> List'
>>> Subject: Re: [Mt-blind] MAB Position on Accessible Pedestrian
>>> Signals
>>>
>>> Thanks Jim,
>>>
>>> The interesting thing about audible signals is that there isn't any
>>> substantive research to show that they actually increase safety
>>> for blind
>>> pedestrians. The whole concept is one seemingly based on
>>> supposition --
>>> if
>>> you can't see the signal, then you need to hear it. At about
>>> $25,000 per
>>> intersection to install, that's a pretty weak argument. For
>>> even a city
>>> as small as Missoula, that would come out to nearly $3 million.
>>> That is
>>> some serious government intervention with not much to justify the
>>> expense.
>>>
>>> Dan
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: mt-blind-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:mt-blind-
>>> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Jim Marks
>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 9:44 PM
>>> To: 'Montana Association for the Blind List'
>>> Subject: [Mt-blind] MAB Position on Accessible Pedestrian Signals
>>>
>>> As promised, I looked up the MAB resolution on accessible pedestrian
>>> signals. The resolution, which was adopted in 2003 in Butte,
>>> stands as
>>> the
>>> official policy on the audible signals. The resolution does not
>>> oppose
>>> all
>>> such signals, but it certainly sets the tone that they are rarely
>>> necessary
>>> or desirable. The resolution also calls for the less obnoxious
>>> and more
>>> accessible vibro-tactile type. The MAB could change its policy by
>>> adopting
>>> a different resolution at convention. Here is the resolution:
>>>
>>> Resolution 2003-06 Accessible Pedestrian Signals
>>>
>>> WHEREAS accessible pedestrian signals are audible and/or vibro-
>>> tactile
>>> signals that provide alternative indicators for the blind when
>>> the walk
>>> and
>>> do not walk signals are activated; and
>>>
>>> WHEREAS accessible pedestrian signals are expensive to install and
>>> maintain
>>> and are necessary only for some rare intersections where traditional
>>> orientation and mobility techniques for the blind do not work
>>> effectively;
>>> and
>>>
>>> WHEREAS blind pedestrians prefer vibro-tactile signals over
>>> audible ones
>>> because vibro-tactile signals do not endanger blind pedestrians
>>> by adding
>>> confusing and unnecessary noise to the soundscape, thus
>>> interfering with
>>> the
>>> sounds of traffic that blind pedestrians use to cross intersections
>>> safely;
>>> and WHEREAS blind and visually impaired Montanans are citizens
>>> who want to
>>> spend public dollars wisely and to reinforce the notion that well-
>>> trained
>>> and responsible blind and visually impaired citizens routinely
>>> cross most
>>> intersections without accessible pedestrian signals: Now, therefore,
>>>
>>> Be it RESOLVED by the Montana Association for the Blind in
>>> convention
>>> assembled on this fourth day of May, 2003, in the city of Butte,
>>> Montana,
>>> that this organization proclaims that accessible pedestrian
>>> signals are
>>> necessary for only a few intersections, not all intersections; and
>>>
>>> Be it further RESOLVED that we call upon the Montana Department of
>>> Transportation and city governments to consult with the Montana
>>> Association
>>> for the Blind before installing accessible pedestrian signals; and
>>>
>>> Be it further RESOLVED that the Montana Department of
>>> Transportation and
>>> city governments install only accessible pedestrian signals of the
>>> vibro-tactile type.
>>>
>>>
>>> Jim Marks
>>> blind.grizzly at GMail.com
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> Mt-blind at nfbnet.org
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