[Mt-blind] Mt-blind Digest, Vol 13, Issue 24
Jim Marks
blind.grizzly at gmail.com
Wed Aug 8 21:59:34 CDT 2007
Hi Teresa,
You've not put me on the spot, but I may have put myself there in being so
slow to reply to your e-mail about agenda items for the convention below.
I've been on vacation. Went to Seattle to see a Mariners game, then on to
the Oregon beaches near Tillamook. Teresa, you and the others in Great
Falls have put together a great agenda, and I think it's your call about
adding items. We could put together some new resolutions if you wish. I've
already received a couple of very good resolutions from the Bozeman chapter.
This coming convention promises to be a good one, and I hope everyone can
make it. If you can't, I'm sure members of this listserv will fill us in.
I'll try to have a report handy. Thanks much!
Jim Marks
blind.grizzly at GMail.com
-----Original Message-----
From: mt-blind-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:mt-blind-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of teresa leese
Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2007 7:10 PM
To: mt-blind at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [Mt-blind] Mt-blind Digest, Vol 13, Issue 24
There have been no plans for someone to speak on this topic. The agenda is
in its final stages of being put together. This is a rather recent topic,
but as some of my committee members are on this list serve, they may have
input on your question. I can make attempts to find room for this topic and
come up with a time if this issue needs to be discussed at the convention. I
have read Jim Mark's remarks and the past resolution. Maybe he has more to
add also. Sorry for putting you on the spot Jim.
Teresa
----- Original Message -----
From: <mt-blind-request at nfbnet.org>
To: <mt-blind at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2007 3:46 PM
Subject: Mt-blind Digest, Vol 13, Issue 24
> Send Mt-blind mailing list submissions to
> mt-blind at nfbnet.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mt-blind
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> mt-blind-request at nfbnet.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> mt-blind-owner at nfbnet.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Mt-blind digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Mt-blind Digest, Vol 13, Issue 15 (dmgina)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 15:54:23 -0700
> From: dmgina <dmgina at qwest.net>
> Subject: Re: [Mt-blind] Mt-blind Digest, Vol 13, Issue 15
> To: mt-blind at nfbnet.org
> Message-ID: <20070728225423.dmgina at qwest.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> Hi there,
> With all the quiet cars out there, you sure couldn't hear it at all with
> coocoo going.
> Now that would frighten me.
> I am wondering, will there be an instructor at the convention this year to
> talk about training with the quiet cars and the beeping lights?
> I would be interested in that one.
> Dar
> the ----- source message -----
> from: "Daniel Burke" <burke.dall at gmail.com>
> to: "'Montana Association for the Blind List'" <mt-blind at nfbnet.org>
> date: saturday Jul 28 2007, 15:09:38
> subject: Re: [Mt-blind] Mt-blind Digest, Vol 13, Issue 15
>
>>
>>
>> In the case of the one that Ted is referring to, and the one I'm
>> referring
>> to, and to the three I know of in Helena right now, they are definitely
>> loud
>> enough that they can easily mask the sound of traffic surges.
>>
>> So it's not surprising that they make a "cuckoo" sound, is it? (grin)
>>
>> By the way, we had the one in Missoula turned off.
>>
>> Dan
>>
>>
>> ----comOriginal Message-----
>> From: mt-blind-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:mt-blind-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of dmgina
>> Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2007 11:50 AM
>> To: mt-blind at nfbnet.org
>> Subject: Re: [Mt-blind] Mt-blind Digest, Vol 13, Issue 15
>>
>> Hi there,
>> Is the sound of the light louder than the traffic going down the street.
>> I haven't done much with the lights having sounds.
>> Just did it one time with the chirping light in Michigan.
>> Stay safe out there.
>> Dar
>> ----- source message -----
>> from: Edward C Robbins <robbinsec at juno.com>
>> to: mt-blind at nfbnet.org
>> date: saturday Jul 28 2007, 09:37:55
>> subject: Re: [Mt-blind] Mt-blind Digest, Vol 13, Issue 15
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > Greetings,
>> > I have had my experiences with the "cookoo/chirp" signal on
>> > Central and 4th street in Great Falls. (It has recently been removed.)
>> > When ready to cross, I would focus on the sound, ignoreing the
>> > surge and other cues. Several times I would find my self crossing
>> > diagonally and once was walking up Central, past the intersection, when
>> > my plan was to cross it.
>> > I found out that the audible signal was located on one building
>> > and I was focusing in on the echo of the darn thing. We must use the
>> > skills we have learned and quit thinking that all these "marvalous"
>> > things for our good will save us all.
>> > Sincerely,
>> > Ted Robbins
>> >
>> > On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 09:20:15 com0600 "Daniel Burke"
>> > <burke.dall at gmail.com>
>> > writes:
>> > > You know Nancy, I had a similar experience in Missoula some years
>> > > ago. An
>> > > audible signal was put in at the corner of S. 3rd W and Russell,
>> > > near where
>> > > the BLVS offices were then located. I determined to cross there and
>> > > use the
>> > > signal one time. Despite everything I knew -- listen for the surge,
>> > > the
>> > > signal only tells you what color the light is and not that you
>> > > should start
>> > > -- the minute the thing went off I darn near jumped off the curb. It
>> > > gives a
>> > > false sense of information and security, in my view. It's easy to
>> > > take it
>> > > as a command. As it happened, I resisted the audible signal's
>> > > urging to get
>> > > into the crosswalk. Good think, as a car turned right directly in
>> > > front of
>> > > me and in some kind of a hurry to beat the surge of traffic that was
>> > > with
>> > > me. I would have been in its grill had I gone.
>> > >
>> > > Dan
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > ----comOriginal Message-----
>> > > From: mt-blind-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> > > [mailto:mt-blind-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> > > Behalf Of Nancy Cormier
>> > > Sent: Friday, July 27, 2007 9:16 PM
>> > > To: mt-blind at nfbnet.org
>> > > Subject: Re: [Mt-blind] Mt-blind Digest, Vol 13, Issue 15
>> > >
>> > > More on audible signals....
>> > > This is not research but a true story that teaches a good lesson.
>> > > In
>> > > Austin, TX I was working with a consumer at a very busy
>> > > intersection. My instructions were to wait for the appropriate
>> > > surge. She insisted on using the audible signal. She knew the
>> > > appropriate surge to travel with but was listening for the audible
>> > >
>> > > signal. The signal went off. As she started to step onto the
>> > > street the perpendicular traffic started to move. I pulled her to
>> > >
>> > > safety and she immediately realized the signal she heard was for the
>> > >
>> > > other direction. There was never any doubt after that incident
>> > > that she had to listen for the appropriate surge which comes after
>> > >
>> > > the audible signal starts.
>> > >
>> > > Nancy Cormier
>> > >
>> > > On Jul 25, 2007, at 9:50 PM, mt-blind-request at nfbnet.org wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > Send Mt-blind mailing list submissions to
>> > > > mt-blind at nfbnet.org
>> > > >
>> > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mt-blind
>> > > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> > > > mt-blind-request at nfbnet.org
>> > > >
>> > > > You can reach the person managing the list at
>> > > > mt-blind-owner at nfbnet.org
>> > > >
>> > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more
>> > > specific
>> > > > than "Re: Contents of Mt-blind digest..."
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > Today's Topics:
>> > > >
>> > > > 1. Re: MAB Position on Accessible Pedestrian Signals (RJ still
>> > > > KJ)
>> > > > 2. Re: MAB Position on Accessible Pedestrian Signals (Daniel
>> > > Burke)
>> > > > 3. Re: MAB Position on Accessible Pedestrian Signals
>> > > > (Bernice DeHaas)
>> > > > 4. Re: MAB Position on Accessible Pedestrian Signals (Dan
>> > > Burke)
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > > >
>> > > > Message: 1
>> > > > Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 13:41:36 com0600
>> > > > From: "RJ still KJ" <d28rik at msn.com>
>> > > > Subject: Re: [Mt-blind] MAB Position on Accessible Pedestrian
>> > > Signals
>> > > > To: "'Montana Association for the Blind List'"
>> > > <mt-blind at nfbnet.org>
>> > > > Message-ID: <BAY106-DAV414631C7823513F3E2CEADBF10 at phx.gbl>
>> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=by iso-8859-1"
>> > > >
>> > > > President Dan and others on the list... Anyone know about the
>> > > > plans going
>> > > > down in Bozeman? Intersections on our Main Street has been torn
>> > > up
>> > > > all
>> > > > summer. I had heard from a couple that plans were to put audible
>> > >
>> > > > signals
>> > > > in. I don't know if there was any consultation such as was
>> > > > suggested in
>> > > > the 2003 resolution that Mr. Marks posted recently on this list.
>> > > I
>> > > > suspect
>> > > > it is possible there was some local input here, but do not know
>> > > > that. I
>> > > > would contact someone to give them a copy of the resolution if you
>> > >
>> > > > think it
>> > > > might be helpful. Likely as not, this is all too late for us. I
>> > >
>> > > > do not
>> > > > know of too many white cane users on our downtown streets other
>> > > > than Mr.
>> > > > Toohey and myself as I never run across any or hear mention by
>> > > > others. But
>> > > > perhaps there are. There are some tricky intersections in
>> > > > Bozeman. But if
>> > > > they do this to all the downtown corners it will be a noise that I
>> > >
>> > > > think
>> > > > will really annoy many. And even worse, in my opinion, it will be
>> > > a
>> > > > hindrance to the usual blind traveler techniques for making safe
>> > >
>> > > > crossings.
>> > > >
>> > > > Comments or information may be made to me by email at
>> > > > d28rik at msn.com or by
>> > > > phone at 406.586-4123. I don't regularly read all the posts on
>> > > > this list so
>> > > > I might miss your reply.
>> > > >
>> > > > Thanks.
>> > > > Rik James
>> > > > Bozeman
>> > > >
>> > > > ----comOriginal Message-----
>> > > > From: mt-blind-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailtoccmt-blind-
>> > > > bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> > > > Behalf Of Daniel Burke
>> > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 8:50 AM
>> > > > To: blind.grizzly at gmail.com; 'Montana Association for the Blind
>> > > List'
>> > > > Subject: Re: [Mt-blind] MAB Position on Accessible Pedestrian
>> > > Signals
>> > > >
>> > > > Thanks Jim,
>> > > >
>> > > > The interesting thing about audible signals is that there isn't
>> > > any
>> > > > substantive research to show that they actually increase safety
>> > > for
>> > > > blind
>> > > > pedestrians. The whole concept is one seemingly based on
>> > > > supposition -- if
>> > > > you can't see the signal, then you need to hear it. At about
>> > > > $25,000 per
>> > > > intersection to install, that's a pretty weak argument. For
>> > > even
>> > > > a city
>> > > > as small as Missoula, that would come out to nearly $3 million.
>> > >
>> > > > That is
>> > > > some serious government intervention with not much to justify the
>> > >
>> > > > expense.
>> > > >
>> > > > Dan
>> > > >
>> > > > ----comOriginal Message-----
>> > > > From: mt-blind-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailtoccmt-blind-
>> > > > bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> > > > Behalf Of Jim Marks
>> > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 9:44 PM
>> > > > To: 'Montana Association for the Blind List'
>> > > > Subject: [Mt-blind] MAB Position on Accessible Pedestrian Signals
>> > > >
>> > > > As promised, I looked up the MAB resolution on accessible
>> > > pedestrian
>> > > > signals. The resolution, which was adopted in 2003 in Butte,
>> > > > stands as the
>> > > > official policy on the audible signals. The resolution does not
>> > >
>> > > > oppose all
>> > > > such signals, but it certainly sets the tone that they are rarely
>> > >
>> > > > necessary
>> > > > or desirable. The resolution also calls for the less obnoxious
>> > > and
>> > > > more
>> > > > accessible vibro-tactile type. The MAB could change its policy by
>> > >
>> > > > adopting
>> > > > a different resolution at convention. Here is the resolution:
>> > > >
>> > > > Resolution 2003-06 Accessible Pedestrian Signals
>> > > >
>> > > > WHEREAS accessible pedestrian signals are audible and/or
>> > > vibro-tactile
>> > > > signals that provide alternative indicators for the blind when the
>> > >
>> > > > walk and
>> > > > do not walk signals are activated; and
>> > > >
>> > > > WHEREAS accessible pedestrian signals are expensive to install and
>> > >
>> > > > maintain
>> > > > and are necessary only for some rare intersections where
>> > > traditional
>> > > > orientation and mobility techniques for the blind do not work
>> > > > effectively;
>> > > > and
>> > > >
>> > > > WHEREAS blind pedestrians prefer vibro-tactile signals over
>> > > audible
>> > > > ones
>> > > > because vibro-tactile signals do not endanger blind pedestrians by
>> > >
>> > > > adding
>> > > > confusing and unnecessary noise to the soundscape, thus interfering
>> > >
>> > > > with the
>> > > > sounds of traffic that blind pedestrians use to cross
>> > > intersections
>> > > > safely;
>> > > > and WHEREAS blind and visually impaired Montanans are citizens who
>> > >
>> > > > want to
>> > > > spend public dollars wisely and to reinforce the notion that well-
>> > >
>> > > > trained
>> > > > and responsible blind and visually impaired citizens routinely
>> > > > cross most
>> > > > intersections without accessible pedestrian signals: Now,
>> > > therefore,
>> > > >
>> > > > Be it RESOLVED by the Montana Association for the Blind in
>> > > convention
>> > > > assembled on this fourth day of May, 2003, in the city of Butte,
>> > >
>> > > > Montana,
>> > > > that this organization proclaims that accessible pedestrian
>> > > signals
>> > > > are
>> > > > necessary for only a few intersections, not all intersections;
>> > > and
>> > > >
>> > > > Be it further RESOLVED that we call upon the Montana Department
>> > > of
>> > > > Transportation and city governments to consult with the Montana
>> > > > Association
>> > > > for the Blind before installing accessible pedestrian signals;
>> > > and
>> > > >
>> > > > Be it further RESOLVED that the Montana Department of
>> > > > Transportation and
>> > > > city governments install only accessible pedestrian signals of
>> > > the
>> > > > vibro-tactile type.
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > Jim Marks
>> > > > blind.grizzly at GMail.com
>> > > >
>> > > > _______________________________________________
>> > > > Mt-blind mailing list
>> > > > Mt-blind at nfbnet.org
>> > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mt-blind
>> > > >
>> > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
>> > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> > > > Version: 7.5.476 still Virus Database: 269.10.19/917 -- Release
>> > > > Date:
>>
>> > >
>> > > > 7/25/2007
>> > > > 1:16 AM
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > No virus found in this outgoing message.
>> > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> > > > Version: 7.5.476 still Virus Database: 269.10.19/917 -- Release
>> > > > Date:
>>
>> > >
>> > > > 7/25/2007
>> > > > 1:16 AM
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > _______________________________________________
>> > > > Mt-blind mailing list
>> > > > Mt-blind at nfbnet.org
>> > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mt-blind
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > ------------------------------
>> > > >
>> > > > Message: 2
>> > > > Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 18:12:54 com0600
>> > > > From: "Daniel Burke" <burke.dall at gmail.com>
>> > > > Subject: Re: [Mt-blind] MAB Position on Accessible Pedestrian
>> > > Signals
>> > > > To: "'Montana Association for the Blind List'"
>> > > <mt-blind at nfbnet.org>
>> > > > Message-ID: <013a01c7cf19$b763c6d0$0301a8c0 at upstairs>
>> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=by windows-1250"
>> > > >
>> > > > Boy, it would be a shame to have audible signals downtown in
>> > > > Bozeman. It's
>> > > > one of the most walkable places in Montana on Main there, and it
>> > > will
>> > > > certainly be full of noise pollution and more difficult to track
>> > >
>> > > > traffic
>> > > > movements safely there.
>> > > >
>> > > > Dan
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > ----comOriginal Message-----
>> > > > From: mt-blind-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailtoccmt-blind-
>> > > > bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> > > > Behalf Of RJ still KJ
>> > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 1:42 PM
>> > > > To: 'Montana Association for the Blind List'
>> > > > Subject: Re: [Mt-blind] MAB Position on Accessible Pedestrian
>> > > Signals
>> > > >
>> > > > President Dan and others on the list... Anyone know about the
>> > > > plans going
>> > > > down in Bozeman? Intersections on our Main Street has been torn
>> > > up
>> > > > all
>> > > > summer. I had heard from a couple that plans were to put audible
>> > >
>> > > > signals
>> > > > in. I don't know if there was any consultation such as was
>> > > > suggested in
>> > > > the 2003 resolution that Mr. Marks posted recently on this list.
>> > > I
>> > > > suspect
>> > > > it is possible there was some local input here, but do not know
>> > > > that. I
>> > > > would contact someone to give them a copy of the resolution if you
>> > >
>> > > > think it
>> > > > might be helpful. Likely as not, this is all too late for us. I
>> > >
>> > > > do not
>> > > > know of too many white cane users on our downtown streets other
>> > > > than Mr.
>> > > > Toohey and myself as I never run across any or hear mention by
>> > > > others. But
>> > > > perhaps there are. There are some tricky intersections in
>> > > > Bozeman. But if
>> > > > they do this to all the downtown corners it will be a noise that I
>> > >
>> > > > think
>> > > > will really annoy many. And even worse, in my opinion, it will be
>> > > a
>> > > > hindrance to the usual blind traveler techniques for making safe
>> > >
>> > > > crossings.
>> > > >
>> > > > Comments or information may be made to me by email at
>> > > > d28rik at msn.com or by
>> > > > phone at 406.586-4123. I don't regularly read all the posts on
>> > > > this list so
>> > > > I might miss your reply.
>> > > >
>> > > > Thanks.
>> > > > Rik James
>> > > > Bozeman
>> > > >
>> > > > ----comOriginal Message-----
>> > > > From: mt-blind-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailtoccmt-blind-
>> > > > bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> > > > Behalf Of Daniel Burke
>> > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 8:50 AM
>> > > > To: blind.grizzly at gmail.com; 'Montana Association for the Blind
>> > > List'
>> > > > Subject: Re: [Mt-blind] MAB Position on Accessible Pedestrian
>> > > Signals
>> > > >
>> > > > Thanks Jim,
>> > > >
>> > > > The interesting thing about audible signals is that there isn't
>> > > any
>> > > > substantive research to show that they actually increase safety
>> > > for
>> > > > blind
>> > > > pedestrians. The whole concept is one seemingly based on
>> > > > supposition -- if
>> > > > you can't see the signal, then you need to hear it. At about
>> > > > $25,000 per
>> > > > intersection to install, that's a pretty weak argument. For
>> > > even
>> > > > a city
>> > > > as small as Missoula, that would come out to nearly $3 million.
>> > >
>> > > > That is
>> > > > some serious government intervention with not much to justify the
>> > >
>> > > > expense.
>> > > >
>> > > > Dan
>> > > >
>> > > > ----comOriginal Message-----
>> > > > From: mt-blind-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailtoccmt-blind-
>> > > > bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> > > > Behalf Of Jim Marks
>> > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 9:44 PM
>> > > > To: 'Montana Association for the Blind List'
>> > > > Subject: [Mt-blind] MAB Position on Accessible Pedestrian Signals
>> > > >
>> > > > As promised, I looked up the MAB resolution on accessible
>> > > pedestrian
>> > > > signals. The resolution, which was adopted in 2003 in Butte,
>> > > > stands as the
>> > > > official policy on the audible signals. The resolution does not
>> > >
>> > > > oppose all
>> > > > such signals, but it certainly sets the tone that they are rarely
>> > >
>> > > > necessary
>> > > > or desirable. The resolution also calls for the less obnoxious
>> > > and
>> > > > more
>> > > > accessible vibro-tactile type. The MAB could change its policy by
>> > >
>> > > > adopting
>> > > > a different resolution at convention. Here is the resolution:
>> > > >
>> > > > Resolution 2003-06 Accessible Pedestrian Signals
>> > > >
>> > > > WHEREAS accessible pedestrian signals are audible and/or
>> > > vibro-tactile
>> > > > signals that provide alternative indicators for the blind when the
>> > >
>> > > > walk and
>> > > > do not walk signals are activated; and
>> > > >
>> > > > WHEREAS accessible pedestrian signals are expensive to install and
>> > >
>> > > > maintain
>> > > > and are necessary only for some rare intersections where
>> > > traditional
>> > > > orientation and mobility techniques for the blind do not work
>> > > > effectively;
>> > > > and
>> > > >
>> > > > WHEREAS blind pedestrians prefer vibro-tactile signals over
>> > > audible
>> > > > ones
>> > > > because vibro-tactile signals do not endanger blind pedestrians by
>> > >
>> > > > adding
>> > > > confusing and unnecessary noise to the soundscape, thus
>> > > interfering
>> > > > with the
>> > > > sounds of traffic that blind pedestrians use to cross
>> > > intersections
>> > > > safely;
>> > > > and WHEREAS blind and visually impaired Montanans are citizens who
>> > >
>> > > > want to
>> > > > spend public dollars wisely and to reinforce the notion that well-
>> > >
>> > > > trained
>> > > > and responsible blind and visually impaired citizens routinely
>> > > > cross most
>> > > > intersections without accessible pedestrian signals: Now,
>> > > therefore,
>> > > >
>> > > > Be it RESOLVED by the Montana Association for the Blind in
>> > > convention
>> > > > assembled on this fourth day of May, 2003, in the city of Butte,
>> > >
>> > > > Montana,
>> > > > that this organization proclaims that accessible pedestrian
>> > > signals
>> > > > are
>> > > > necessary for only a few intersections, not all intersections;
>> > > and
>> > > >
>> > > > Be it further RESOLVED that we call upon the Montana Department
>> > > of
>> > > > Transportation and city governments to consult with the Montana
>> > > > Association
>> > > > for the Blind before installing accessible pedestrian signals;
>> > > and
>> > > >
>> > > > Be it further RESOLVED that the Montana Department of
>> > > > Transportation and
>> > > > city governments install only accessible pedestrian signals of
>> > > the
>> > > > vibro-tactile type.
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > Jim Marks
>> > > > blind.grizzly at GMail.com
>> > > >
>> > > > _______________________________________________
>> > > > Mt-blind mailing list
>> > > > Mt-blind at nfbnet.org
>> > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mt-blind
>> > > >
>> > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
>> > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> > > > Version: 7.5.476 still Virus Database: 269.10.19/917 -- Release
>> > > > Date:
>>
>> > >
>> > > > 7/25/2007
>> > > > 1:16 AM
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > No virus found in this outgoing message.
>> > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> > > > Version: 7.5.476 still Virus Database: 269.10.19/917 -- Release
>> > > > Date:
>>
>> > >
>> > > > 7/25/2007
>> > > > 1:16 AM
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > _______________________________________________
>> > > > Mt-blind mailing list
>> > > > Mt-blind at nfbnet.org
>> > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mt-blind
>> > > >
>> > > > _______________________________________________
>> > > > Mt-blind mailing list
>> > > > Mt-blind at nfbnet.org
>> > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mt-blind
>> > > >
>> > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
>> > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> > > > Version: 7.5.476 still Virus Database: 269.10.19/917 -- Release
>> > > > Date:
>>
>> > >
>> > > > 7/25/2007
>> > > > 1:16 AM
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > No virus found in this outgoing message.
>> > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> > > > Version: 7.5.476 still Virus Database: 269.10.19/917 -- Release
>> > > > Date:
>>
>> > >
>> > > > 7/25/2007
>> > > > 1:16 AM
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > ------------------------------
>> > > >
>> > > > Message: 3
>> > > > Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 20:06:46 com0600
>> > > > From: "Bernice DeHaas" <berncom at mcn.net>
>> > > > Subject: Re: [Mt-blind] MAB Position on Accessible Pedestrian
>> > > Signals
>> > > > To: "Montana Association for the Blind List"
>> > > <mt-blind at nfbnet.org>
>> > > > Cc: Rik James <d28rik at msn.com>
>> > > > Message-ID: <000601c7cf29$aa5abab0$0a0110ac at Dimension>
>> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=by iso-8859-1";
>> > > > reply-type=original
>> > > >
>> > > > It is, I'm afraid, too late to make any changes in the Main
>> > > Street
>> > > > construction, but we have not heard of plans for audible signals
>> > > > there.
>> > > > The contracts have been let and the project is well under way.
>> > > For
>> > > > more
>> > > > information you can go to the Bozeman web site, www.bozeman.net,
>> > >
>> > > > and find
>> > > > "construction" or call the contractor, 388-4035, ext. 103. Last
>> > >
>> > > > winter John
>> > > > heard a rumor that they wanted to put roundabouts at 7th and
>> > > > Mendenhall and
>> > > > 7th and Main. He wrote letters to the City Commission and to the
>> > > City
>> > > > Manager protesting the idea, and the City Manager, Cris Kukulski,
>> > >
>> > > > called him
>> > > > in a few days. Mr. Kukulski described the project (no roundabouts
>> > >
>> > > > there)
>> > > > and didn't mention audible signals. He did say there will be
>> > > count-
>> > > > down
>> > > > timers at Willson and Main and at Rouse and Main giving a visual
>> > >
>> > > > clock of
>> > > > the number of seconds left before the lights change. I don't
>> > > think
>> > > > that
>> > > > will help blind people, but it probably will those of us who can
>> > >
>> > > > see and
>> > > > need to estimate how much time we have left to get across. From
>> > > my
>> > > > personal
>> > > > standpoint I find the audible signals really annoying.
>> > > >
>> > > > Bernice DeHaas
>> > > >
>> > > > ----- Original Message -----
>> > > > From: "Daniel Burke" <burke.dall at gmail.com>
>> > > > To: "'Montana Association for the Blind List'"
>> > > <mt-blind at nfbnet.org>
>> > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 6:12 PM
>> > > > Subject: Re: [Mt-blind] MAB Position on Accessible Pedestrian
>> > > Signals
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >> Boy, it would be a shame to have audible signals downtown in
>> > > Bozeman.
>> > > >> It's
>> > > >> one of the most walkable places in Montana on Main there, and it
>> > > will
>> > > >> certainly be full of noise pollution and more difficult to track
>> > >
>> > > >> traffic
>> > > >> movements safely there.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Dan
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >> ----comOriginal Message-----
>> > > >> From: mt-blind-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailtoccmt-blind-
>> > > >> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> > > >> Behalf Of RJ still KJ
>> > > >> Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 1:42 PM
>> > > >> To: 'Montana Association for the Blind List'
>> > > >> Subject: Re: [Mt-blind] MAB Position on Accessible Pedestrian
>> > > Signals
>> > > >>
>> > > >> President Dan and others on the list... Anyone know about the
>> > > plans
>> > > >> going
>> > > >> down in Bozeman? Intersections on our Main Street has been torn
>> > >
>> > > >> up all
>> > > >> summer. I had heard from a couple that plans were to put audible
>> > >
>> > > >> signals
>> > > >> in. I don't know if there was any consultation such as was
>> > > >> suggested in
>> > > >> the 2003 resolution that Mr. Marks posted recently on this list.
>> > > I
>> > > >> suspect
>> > > >> it is possible there was some local input here, but do not know
>> > >
>> > > >> that. I
>> > > >> would contact someone to give them a copy of the resolution if
>> > > you
>> > > >> think
>> > > >> it
>> > > >> might be helpful. Likely as not, this is all too late for us. I
>> > >
>> > > >> do not
>> > > >> know of too many white cane users on our downtown streets other
>> > >
>> > > >> than Mr.
>> > > >> Toohey and myself as I never run across any or hear mention by
>> > > >> others.
>> > > >> But
>> > > >> perhaps there are. There are some tricky intersections in
>> > > >> Bozeman. But
>> > > >> if
>> > > >> they do this to all the downtown corners it will be a noise that
>> > > I
>> > > >> think
>> > > >> will really annoy many. And even worse, in my opinion, it will
>> > > be a
>> > > >> hindrance to the usual blind traveler techniques for making safe
>> > > >> crossings.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Comments or information may be made to me by email at
>> > > >> d28rik at msn.com or by
>> > > >> phone at 406.586-4123. I don't regularly read all the posts on
>> > >
>> > > >> this list
>> > > >> so
>> > > >> I might miss your reply.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Thanks.
>> > > >> Rik James
>> > > >> Bozeman
>> > > >>
>> > > >> ----comOriginal Message-----
>> > > >> From: mt-blind-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailtoccmt-blind-
>> > > >> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> > > >> Behalf Of Daniel Burke
>> > > >> Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 8:50 AM
>> > > >> To: blind.grizzly at gmail.com; 'Montana Association for the Blind
>> > > List'
>> > > >> Subject: Re: [Mt-blind] MAB Position on Accessible Pedestrian
>> > > Signals
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Thanks Jim,
>> > > >>
>> > > >> The interesting thing about audible signals is that there isn't
>> > > any
>> > > >> substantive research to show that they actually increase safety
>> > >
>> > > >> for blind
>> > > >> pedestrians. The whole concept is one seemingly based on
>> > > >> supposition --
>> > > >> if
>> > > >> you can't see the signal, then you need to hear it. At about
>> > > >> $25,000 per
>> > > >> intersection to install, that's a pretty weak argument. For
>> > > >> even a city
>> > > >> as small as Missoula, that would come out to nearly $3 million.
>> > >
>> > > >> That is
>> > > >> some serious government intervention with not much to justify the
>> > >
>> > > >> expense.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Dan
>> > > >>
>> > > >> ----comOriginal Message-----
>> > > >> From: mt-blind-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailtoccmt-blind-
>> > > >> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> > > >> Behalf Of Jim Marks
>> > > >> Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 9:44 PM
>> > > >> To: 'Montana Association for the Blind List'
>> > > >> Subject: [Mt-blind] MAB Position on Accessible Pedestrian
>> > > Signals
>> > > >>
>> > > >> As promised, I looked up the MAB resolution on accessible
>> > > pedestrian
>> > > >> signals. The resolution, which was adopted in 2003 in Butte,
>> > > >> stands as
>> > > >> the
>> > > >> official policy on the audible signals. The resolution does not
>> > >
>> > > >> oppose
>> > > >> all
>> > > >> such signals, but it certainly sets the tone that they are
>> > > rarely
>> > > >> necessary
>> > > >> or desirable. The resolution also calls for the less obnoxious
>> > >
>> > > >> and more
>> > > >> accessible vibro-tactile type. The MAB could change its policy
>> > > by
>> > > >> adopting
>> > > >> a different resolution at convention. Here is the resolution:
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Resolution 2003-06 Accessible Pedestrian Signals
>> > > >>
>> > > >> WHEREAS accessible pedestrian signals are audible and/or vibro-
>> > > >> tactile
>> > > >> signals that provide alternative indicators for the blind when
>> > > the
>> > > >> walk
>> > > >> and
>> > > >> do not walk signals are activated; and
>> > > >>
>> > > >> WHEREAS accessible pedestrian signals are expensive to install
>> > > and
>> > > >> maintain
>> > > >> and are necessary only for some rare intersections where
>> > > traditional
>> > > >> orientation and mobility techniques for the blind do not work
>> > > >> effectively;
>> > > >> and
>> > > >>
>> > > >> WHEREAS blind pedestrians prefer vibro-tactile signals over
>> > > >> audible ones
>> > > >> because vibro-tactile signals do not endanger blind pedestrians
>> > > by
>> > > >> adding
>> > > >> confusing and unnecessary noise to the soundscape, thus
>> > > >> interfering with
>> > > >> the
>> > > >> sounds of traffic that blind pedestrians use to cross
>> > > intersections
>> > > >> safely;
>> > > >> and WHEREAS blind and visually impaired Montanans are citizens
>> > > who
>> > > >> want to
>> > > >> spend public dollars wisely and to reinforce the notion that
>> > > well-
>> > > >> trained
>> > > >> and responsible blind and visually impaired citizens routinely
>> > > >> cross most
>> > > >> intersections without accessible pedestrian signals: Now,
>> > > therefore,
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Be it RESOLVED by the Montana Association for the Blind in
>> > > convention
>> > > >> assembled on this fourth day of May, 2003, in the city of Butte,
>> > >
>> > > >> Montana,
>> > > >> that this organization proclaims that accessible pedestrian
>> > > >> signals are
>> > > >> necessary for only a few intersections, not all intersections;
>> > > and
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Be it further RESOLVED that we call upon the Montana Department
>> > > of
>> > > >> Transportation and city governments to consult with the Montana
>> > > >> Association
>> > > >> for the Blind before installing accessible pedestrian signals;
>> > > and
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Be it further RESOLVED that the Montana Department of
>> > > >> Transportation and
>> > > >> city governments install only accessible pedestrian signals of
>> > > the
>> > > >> vibro-tactile type.
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Jim Marks
>> > > >> blind.grizzly at GMail.com
>> > > >>
>> > > >> _______________________________________________
>> > > >> Mt-blind mailing list
>> > > >> Mt-blind at nfbnet.org
>> > > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mt-blind
>> > > >>
>> > > >> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> > > >> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> > > >> Version: 7.5.476 still Virus Database: 269.10.19/917 -- Release
>> > > >> Date:
>>
>> > >
>> > > >> 7/25/2007
>> > > >> 1:16 AM
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >> No virus found in this outgoing message.
>> > > >> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> > > >> Version: 7.5.476 still Virus Database: 269.10.19/917 -- Release
>> > > >> Date:
>>
>> > >
>> > > >> 7/25/2007
>> > > >> 1:16 AM
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >> _______________________________________________
>> > > >> Mt-blind mailing list
>> > > >> Mt-blind at nfbnet.org
>> > > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mt-blind
>> > > >>
>> > > >> _______________________________________________
>> > > >> Mt-blind mailing list
>> > > >> Mt-blind at nfbnet.org
>> > > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mt-blind
>> > > >>
>> > > >> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> > > >> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> > > >> Version: 7.5.476 still Virus Database: 269.10.19/917 -- Release
>> > > >> Date:
>>
>> > >
>> > > >> 7/25/2007
>> > > >> 1:16 AM
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >> No virus found in this outgoing message.
>> > > >> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> > > >> Version: 7.5.476 still Virus Database: 269.10.19/917 -- Release
>> > > >> Date:
>>
>> > >
>> > > >> 7/25/2007
>> > > >> 1:16 AM
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >> _______________________________________________
>> > > >> Mt-blind mailing list
>> > > >> Mt-blind at nfbnet.org
>> > > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mt-blind
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > ------------------------------
>> > > >
>> > > > Message: 4
>> > > > Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 21:58:20 com0600
>> > > > From: "Dan Burke" <burke.dall at gmail.com>
>> > > > Subject: Re: [Mt-blind] MAB Position on Accessible Pedestrian
>> > > Signals
>> > > > To: "Bernice DeHaas" <berncom at mcn.net>, "Montana
>> > > Association for the
>> > > > Blind List" <mt-blind at nfbnet.org>
>> > > > Message-ID:
>> > > >
>> > > <71aeeee30707252058x430c7109g2a3c5d098d799276 at mail.gmail.com>
>> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>> > > >
>> > > > Thanks John & Bernice. Great info & vigilance!
>> > > >
>> > > > Dan
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > On 7/25/07, Bernice DeHaas <berncom at mcn.net> wrote:
>> > > >> It is, I'm afraid, too late to make any changes in the Main
>> > > Street
>> > > >> construction, but we have not heard of plans for audible signals
>> > >
>> > > >> there.
>> > > >> The contracts have been let and the project is well under way.
>> > >
>> > > >> For more
>> > > >> information you can go to the Bozeman web site, www.bozeman.net,
>> > >
>> > > >> and find
>> > > >> "construction" or call the contractor, 388-4035, ext. 103. Last
>> > >
>> > > >> winter John
>> > > >> heard a rumor that they wanted to put roundabouts at 7th and
>> > > >> Mendenhall and
>> > > >> 7th and Main. He wrote letters to the City Commission and to the
>> > >
>> > > >> City
>> > > >> Manager protesting the idea, and the City Manager, Cris Kukulski,
>> > >
>> > > >> called him
>> > > >> in a few days. Mr. Kukulski described the project (no
>> > > roundabouts
>> > > >> there)
>> > > >> and didn't mention audible signals. He did say there will be
>> > > >> count-down
>> > > >> timers at Willson and Main and at Rouse and Main giving a visual
>> > >
>> > > >> clock of
>> > > >> the number of seconds left before the lights change. I don't
>> > > >> think that
>> > > >> will help blind people, but it probably will those of us who can
>> > >
>> > > >> see and
>> > > >> need to estimate how much time we have left to get across. From
>> > >
>> > > >> my personal
>> > > >> standpoint I find the audible signals really annoying.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Bernice DeHaas
>> > > >>
>> > > >> ----- Original Message -----
>> > > >> From: "Daniel Burke" <burke.dall at gmail.com>
>> > > >> To: "'Montana Association for the Blind List'"
>> > > <mt-blind at nfbnet.org>
>> > > >> Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 6:12 PM
>> > > >> Subject: Re: [Mt-blind] MAB Position on Accessible Pedestrian
>> > > Signals
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >>> Boy, it would be a shame to have audible signals downtown in
>> > > >>> Bozeman.
>> > > >>> It's
>> > > >>> one of the most walkable places in Montana on Main there, and it
>> > >
>> > > >>> will
>> > > >>> certainly be full of noise pollution and more difficult to track
>> > >
>> > > >>> traffic
>> > > >>> movements safely there.
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> Dan
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> ----comOriginal Message-----
>> > > >>> From: mt-blind-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailtoccmt-blind-
>> > > >>> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> > > >>> Behalf Of RJ still KJ
>> > > >>> Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 1:42 PM
>> > > >>> To: 'Montana Association for the Blind List'
>> > > >>> Subject: Re: [Mt-blind] MAB Position on Accessible Pedestrian
>> > > >>> Signals
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> President Dan and others on the list... Anyone know about the
>> > >
>> > > >>> plans
>> > > >>> going
>> > > >>> down in Bozeman? Intersections on our Main Street has been torn
>> > >
>> > > >>> up all
>> > > >>> summer. I had heard from a couple that plans were to put
>> > > audible
>> > > >>> signals
>> > > >>> in. I don't know if there was any consultation such as was
>> > > >>> suggested in
>> > > >>> the 2003 resolution that Mr. Marks posted recently on this list.
>> > > I
>> > > >>> suspect
>> > > >>> it is possible there was some local input here, but do not know
>> > >
>> > > >>> that. I
>> > > >>> would contact someone to give them a copy of the resolution if
>> > >
>> > > >>> you think
>> > > >>> it
>> > > >>> might be helpful. Likely as not, this is all too late for us.
>> > > I
>> > > >>> do not
>> > > >>> know of too many white cane users on our downtown streets other
>> > >
>> > > >>> than Mr.
>> > > >>> Toohey and myself as I never run across any or hear mention by
>> > >
>> > > >>> others.
>> > > >>> But
>> > > >>> perhaps there are. There are some tricky intersections in
>> > > >>> Bozeman. But
>> > > >>> if
>> > > >>> they do this to all the downtown corners it will be a noise that
>> > >
>> > > >>> I think
>> > > >>> will really annoy many. And even worse, in my opinion, it will
>> > > be a
>> > > >>> hindrance to the usual blind traveler techniques for making
>> > > safe
>> > > >>> crossings.
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> Comments or information may be made to me by email at
>> > > >>> d28rik at msn.com or by
>> > > >>> phone at 406.586-4123. I don't regularly read all the posts on
>> > >
>> > > >>> this list
>> > > >>> so
>> > > >>> I might miss your reply.
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> Thanks.
>> > > >>> Rik James
>> > > >>> Bozeman
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> ----comOriginal Message-----
>> > > >>> From: mt-blind-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailtoccmt-blind-
>> > > >>> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> > > >>> Behalf Of Daniel Burke
>> > > >>> Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 8:50 AM
>> > > >>> To: blind.grizzly at gmail.com; 'Montana Association for the Blind
>> > >
>> > > >>> List'
>> > > >>> Subject: Re: [Mt-blind] MAB Position on Accessible Pedestrian
>> > > >>> Signals
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> Thanks Jim,
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> The interesting thing about audible signals is that there isn't
>> > > any
>> > > >>> substantive research to show that they actually increase safety
>> > >
>> > > >>> for blind
>> > > >>> pedestrians. The whole concept is one seemingly based on
>> > > >>> supposition --
>> > > >>> if
>> > > >>> you can't see the signal, then you need to hear it. At about
>> > > >>> $25,000 per
>> > > >>> intersection to install, that's a pretty weak argument. For
>> > >
>> > > >>> even a city
>> > > >>> as small as Missoula, that would come out to nearly $3 million.
>> > >
>> > > >>> That is
>> > > >>> some serious government intervention with not much to justify the
>> > >
>> > > >>> expense.
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> Dan
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> ----comOriginal Message-----
>> > > >>> From: mt-blind-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailtoccmt-blind-
>> > > >>> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> > > >>> Behalf Of Jim Marks
>> > > >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 9:44 PM
>> > > >>> To: 'Montana Association for the Blind List'
>> > > >>> Subject: [Mt-blind] MAB Position on Accessible Pedestrian
>> > > Signals
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> As promised, I looked up the MAB resolution on accessible
>> > > pedestrian
>> > > >>> signals. The resolution, which was adopted in 2003 in Butte,
>> > > >>> stands as
>> > > >>> the
>> > > >>> official policy on the audible signals. The resolution does not
>> > >
>> > > >>> oppose
>> > > >>> all
>> > > >>> such signals, but it certainly sets the tone that they are
>> > > rarely
>> > > >>> necessary
>> > > >>> or desirable. The resolution also calls for the less obnoxious
>> > >
>> > > >>> and more
>> > > >>> accessible vibro-tactile type. The MAB could change its policy
>> > > by
>> > > >>> adopting
>> > > >>> a different resolution at convention. Here is the resolution:
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> Resolution 2003-06 Accessible Pedestrian Signals
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> WHEREAS accessible pedestrian signals are audible and/or vibro-
>> > >
>> > > >>> tactile
>> > > >>> signals that provide alternative indicators for the blind when
>> > >
>> > > >>> the walk
>> > > >>> and
>> > > >>> do not walk signals are activated; and
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> WHEREAS accessible pedestrian signals are expensive to install
>> > > and
>> > > >>> maintain
>> > > >>> and are necessary only for some rare intersections where
>> > > traditional
>> > > >>> orientation and mobility techniques for the blind do not work
>> > > >>> effectively;
>> > > >>> and
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> WHEREAS blind pedestrians prefer vibro-tactile signals over
>> > > >>> audible ones
>> > > >>> because vibro-tactile signals do not endanger blind pedestrians
>> > >
>> > > >>> by adding
>> > > >>> confusing and unnecessary noise to the soundscape, thus
>> > > >>> interfering with
>> > > >>> the
>> > > >>> sounds of traffic that blind pedestrians use to cross
>> > > intersections
>> > > >>> safely;
>> > > >>> and WHEREAS blind and visually impaired Montanans are citizens
>> > >
>> > > >>> who want to
>> > > >>> spend public dollars wisely and to reinforce the notion that
>> > > well-
>> > > >>> trained
>> > > >>> and responsible blind and visually impaired citizens routinely
>> > >
>> > > >>> cross most
>> > > >>> intersections without accessible pedestrian signals: Now,
>> > > therefore,
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> Be it RESOLVED by the Montana Association for the Blind in
>> > > >>> convention
>> > > >>> assembled on this fourth day of May, 2003, in the city of Butte,
>> > >
>> > > >>> Montana,
>> > > >>> that this organization proclaims that accessible pedestrian
>> > > >>> signals are
>> > > >>> necessary for only a few intersections, not all intersections;
>> > > and
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> Be it further RESOLVED that we call upon the Montana Department
>> > > of
>> > > >>> Transportation and city governments to consult with the Montana
>> > > >>> Association
>> > > >>> for the Blind before installing accessible pedestrian signals;
>> > > and
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> Be it further RESOLVED that the Montana Department of
>> > > >>> Transportation and
>> > > >>> city governments install only accessible pedestrian signals of
>> > > the
>> > > >>> vibro-tactile type.
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> Jim Marks
>> > > >>> blind.grizzly at GMail.com
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> _______________________________________________
>> > > >>> Mt-blind mailing list
>> > > >>> Mt-blind at nfbnet.org
>> > > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mt-blind
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> > > >>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> > > >>> Version: 7.5.476 still Virus Database: 269.10.19/917 -- Release
>> Date:
>> > >
>> > > >>> 7/25/2007
>> > > >>> 1:16 AM
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> No virus found in this outgoing message.
>> > > >>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> > > >>> Version: 7.5.476 still Virus Database: 269.10.19/917 -- Release
>> Date:
>> > >
>> > > >>> 7/25/2007
>> > > >>> 1:16 AM
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> _______________________________________________
>> > > >>> Mt-blind mailing list
>> > > >>> Mt-blind at nfbnet.org
>> > > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mt-blind
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> _______________________________________________
>> > > >>> Mt-blind mailing list
>> > > >>> Mt-blind at nfbnet.org
>> > > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mt-blind
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> > > >>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> > > >>> Version: 7.5.476 still Virus Database: 269.10.19/917 -- Release
>> Date:
>> > >
>> > > >>> 7/25/2007
>> > > >>> 1:16 AM
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> No virus found in this outgoing message.
>> > > >>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> > > >>> Version: 7.5.476 still Virus Database: 269.10.19/917 -- Release
>> Date:
>> > >
>> > > >>> 7/25/2007
>> > > >>> 1:16 AM
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> _______________________________________________
>> > > >>> Mt-blind mailing list
>> > > >>> Mt-blind at nfbnet.org
>> > > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mt-blind
>> > > >>
>> > > >> _______________________________________________
>> > > >> Mt-blind mailing list
>> > > >> Mt-blind at nfbnet.org
>> > > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mt-blind
>> > > >>
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > ------------------------------
>> > > >
>> > > > _______________________________________________
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>> > > > Mt-blind at nfbnet.org
>> > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mt-blind
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > End of Mt-blind Digest, Vol 13, Issue 15
>> > > >
>> inininininininininininininininininininininininininininininininininininin*
>> inininininininininininininininininininininininininininininininininininin*
>> inin*
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > Mt-blind mailing list
>> > > Mt-blind at nfbnet.org
>> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mt-blind
>> > >
>> > > No virus found in this incoming message.
>> > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> > > Version: 7.5.476 still Virus Database: 269.10.22/923 -- Release Date:
>> > > 7/27/2007
>> > > 6:01 PM
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > No virus found in this outgoing message.
>> > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> > > Version: 7.5.476 still Virus Database: 269.10.22/923 -- Release Date:
>> > > 7/27/2007
>> > > 6:01 PM
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > Mt-blind mailing list
>> > > Mt-blind at nfbnet.org
>> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mt-blind
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Mt-blind mailing list
>> > Mt-blind at nfbnet.org
>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mt-blind
>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mt-blind
>>
>>
>> Dar
>> www.mypowermall.com/biz/home/5779
>> every saint has a past
>> every sinner has a future
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Mt-blind mailing list
>> Mt-blind at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mt-blind
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> Version: 7.5.476 still Virus Database: 269.10.22/923 -- Release Date:
>> 7/27/2007
>> 6:01 PM
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this outgoing message.
>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> Version: 7.5.476 still Virus Database: 269.10.22/923 -- Release Date:
>> 7/27/2007
>> 6:01 PM
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Mt-blind mailing list
>> Mt-blind at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mt-blind
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mt-blind
>
>
> Dar
> www.mypowermall.com/biz/home/5779
> every saint has a past
> every sinner has a future
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Mt-blind mailing list
> Mt-blind at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mt-blind
>
>
> End of Mt-blind Digest, Vol 13, Issue 24
> ****************************************
>
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