[gui-talk] Updating Adobe Flash Player

Tue Dec 10 21:13:37 UTC 2013

Gerald,

The reason we sued Target  was that because their web site was linked with physical stores, the equal access laws applied more completely.  In addition, Target had physical locations in California, and 
California had tougher laws than the federal laws did at the time.  We didn't just flip a coin as you indicate, and it is not at all clear if laws cover FLASH.  What makes is more complicated is that Adobe has 
guidelines for making FLASH accessible, so they say it is those who implement FLASH who bear the responsibility.  They also say that one can get the update from their website if one's screen reader doesn't 
handle the update well, and I think it even turns out that NVDA handles their update dialog fairly well even though other screen readers do not.  This all makes winning a case very uncertain in my opinion even 
though I share your frustration.

Unfortunately, you don't just decide to sue and win as you seem to think is the case.  To sue someone and loose can also set a precedence, so besides not wanting to waste the money, you want to sue only if 
you have a pretty good chance of moving forward.

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 12:49:26 -0500, Gerald Levy wrote:

>The NFB decided ten years ago to single out Target and sue them because 
>their web site was not blind-friendly even though there were plenty of other 
>shopping sites that were more accessible and thus offered reasonable 
>alternatives to Target.com.  So if the NFB had the wherewithall to sue 
>Target, then they could certainly sue Adobe.  Unlike the Target case, blind 
>computer users who want to access web sites that contain flash content have 
>no alternatives to Flash Player.  Because Flash Player is so widely used, 
>not being able to update it regularly to protect our computers against 
>hackers and malicious attacks, to me, violates our civil rights under the 
>ADA.

>Gerald

>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
>To: "'Discussion of the Graphical User Interface, GUI Talk Mailing List'" 
><gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2013 11:19 AM
>Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Updating Adobe Flash Player

>>I am not sure what legal basis we could use for a suit since Adobe is nbot 
>>a
>> municipality and its website isn't necessarily used for e-commerce alone,
>> i.e., isn't necessarily subject to Title III of the ADA, nor does Adobe
>> receive funding (other than Federal contracts) from the Federal 
>> government.
>> However, I'll start working on a resolution to submit to our 2014 national
>> convention to put NFB on record condemning and deploring some of these
>> shoddy practices. Perhaps we can allege that Adobe is discriminating 
>> against
>> the blind by not ensuring that all "opt-out" provisions on its website are
>> accessible equally to blind and sighted.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: gui-talk [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Gerald 
>> Levy
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2013 4:12 AM
>> To: Lloyd Rasmussen; Discussion of the Graphical User Interface, GUI Talk
>> Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Updating Adobe Flash Player
>>
>>
>> Which is why the NFB should seriously consider taking legal action against
>> Adobe Systems to force it to make its web site more blind friendly.
>>
>> Gerald
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Lloyd Rasmussen" <lras at sprynet.com>
>> To: "Discussion of the Graphical User Interface, GUI Talk Mailing List"
>> <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, December 09, 2013 9:14 PM
>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Updating Adobe Flash Player
>>
>>
>>>I didn't have a reader handy when I ran into this situation.  So after the
>>>Flash update was completed, I used Add/Remove Programs to remove the 
>>>Google
>>
>>>toolbar and Google Chrome before they had a chance to run.  In each
>>>instance, they popped up a survey asking why I was uninstalling those
>>>Google programs.  I told them that it was because their programs had 
>>>become
>>
>>>a default installation with Adobe Flash updates, and that there didn't 
>>>seem
>>
>>>to be an accessible way of preventing those defaults from taking effect.
>>>The technology exists, and even a few weeks ago you could uncheck those
>>>programs.  I don't feel kindly to Adobe these days, in addition to Oracle.
>>> I am concerned about this situation also, because when my wife gets rehab
>>> to buy a PC for someone, they will inevitably make their systems less
>>> useable when these security upgrades come along, or they will expose 
>>> their
>>
>>> state-bought equipment to security problems that could be prevented.  A
>>> lot of people are getting computers but have minimal training in the 
>>> level
>>
>>> of problem-solving we are discussing.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Lloyd Rasmussen, Kensington, MD
>>> http://lras.home.sprynet.com
>>> -----Original Message----- 
>>> From: Mike Freeman
>>> Sent: Monday, December 09, 2013 1:12 PM
>>> To: 'Discussion of the Graphical User Interface,GUI Talk Mailing List'
>>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Updating Adobe Flash Player
>>>
>>> And here's where a reader comes in handy.
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: gui-talk [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Gerald
>>> Levy
>>> Sent: Monday, December 09, 2013 3:47 AM
>>> To: Discussion of the Graphical User Interface, GUI Talk Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Updating Adobe Flash Player
>>>
>>>
>>> For your information, Adobe Flash Player has not been available for
>>> download
>>>
>>> on the Ninite site for a few months, so the only option is to download it
>>> from the Adobe site.
>>>
>>> Gerald
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Jude DaShiell" <jdashiel at shellworld.net>
>>> To: "Discussion of the Graphical User Interface, GUI Talk Mailing List"
>>> <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2013 7:00 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Updating Adobe Flash Player
>>>
>>>
>>>> It's never a good idea to use the adobe website to update software.
>>>> Your better option is to use http://www.ninite.com/ and that will
>>>> download an appropriate installer for your hardware and software.  You
>>>> run the installer and ninite.com installs the adobe products for you
>>>> without all that extra garbage.  That's how ninite.com installs
>>>> everything that's available on ninite.com and if you buy the pro
>>>> version, ninite.com will check the manufacturer's sites for you and let
>>>> you know when it's time to install the next updates.  I'm surprised
>>>> ninite.com isn't known about and used more widely on those other blind
>>>> tech lists.  I don't even want to write about adobe reader with jaws 10,
>>>> but that ninite.com site is well worth a visit.
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, 8 Dec 2013, David Andrews wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I have forwarded your message to several influencial people within the
>>>>> NFB.
>>>>> Adobe, in my opinion is one of the worst main-line companies out there,
>>>>> in my
>>>>> opinion.  In addition to the kinds of things you mention below, many of
>>>>> their
>>>>> tools for producing PDF's do a terrible job at producing accessible
>>>>> documents.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dave
>>>>>
>>>>> At 04:59 PM 12/5/2013, you wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> >There has been a lot of discussion over the past few days on a few
>>>>> >blind
>>>>> >tech-related mailing lists about the difficulty of updating Adobe 
>>>>> >Flash
>>>>> >Player without also installing unwanted software such as Google Chrome
>>>>> >and
>>>>> >Tool Bar as well as McAfee Security Scan Plus.  A lot of people have
>>>>> >been
>>>>> >complaining that the check boxes on the Flash Player download page to
>>>>> >unselect the installation of Google Chrome or McAfee Security Scan
>>>>> >Plus,
>>>>> >which are checked by default are either totally inaccessible  or
>>>>> >uncheckable
>>>>> >, regardless of which screen reader is used.  Other people have
>>>>> >reported
>>>
>>>>> >that
>>>>> >the Adobe web site is so inaccessible, that they can't install Flash
>>>>> >Player
>>>>> >at all without sighted help.  This is not an insignificant problem, in
>>>>> >view
>>>>> >of the fact that updates to Flash Player are released pretty 
>>>>> >frequently
>>>>> >and
>>>>> >need to be installed to patch security flaws in this highly-vulnerable
>>>>> >program, which is used by many web sites, including the popular
>>>>> >Youtube.com.
>>>>> >Can anything be done to force Adobe to make the download page for 
>>>>> >Flash
>>>>> >Player more accessible for us blind computer users.  Must we be forced
>>>>> >to
>>>>> >install unwanted software because there is no accessible means of
>>>>> >unselecting
>>>>> >it?  Is there anything the NFB can do , such as taking legal action
>>>>> >against
>>>>> >Adobe to force it to make its Flash Player web site more blind
>>>>> >friendly?
>>>>> >Thanks for any feedback.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >Gerald
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
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