[gui-talk] Voiceover
albert griffith
albertgriffith at sbcglobal.net
Tue Jul 28 17:30:31 UTC 2009
Chris was attempting to answer a question I had about the speed with which
Voiceover loads pages. He was giving a comparative example.
-----Original Message-----
From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Baracco, Andrew W
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 11:30 AM
To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
I think that you are getting Iphone and Voiceover confused. Voiceover
is a screen reader for Iphone and the Mac. It is a screen reader,
that's it. Many of the Iphone apps do go to the Internet for info, such
as the weather and stock market apps, but that has nothing to do with
Voiceover.
Andy
-----Original Message-----
From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Sherri
Sent: Monday, July 27, 2009 7:47 PM
To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
That's the way I understood it too Joel. So you're not alone. *smile.
Sherri
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joel Deutsch" <jdeutsch at dslextreme.com>
To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, July 27, 2009 8:42 PM
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
> Dear Chris G.,
>
> I'm not technologically sophisticated enough to be arguing with you
about
> this at the level I have a hunch you're talking about it, and in fact
I'm
> not arguing at all to begin with. Please note your first sentence in
the
> message to which I'm responding. As far as I know, what it says is
what I
> took it to mean in English. Which is that Voice Over takes something
from
> the Web. That means, again in English, that it goes onto the World
Wide
> Web,
> searches for and downloads something. The way someone might "get" a
music
> file from the Web, for example.
>
> Now, if you actually were just talking in what for you is a
conversational
> casual way about this, which involves understandings and implications
that
> I
> don't share with people who'd talk like this, then I guess you thought
> you'd
> said something like "it takes its model of operation from the way the
Web
> does something." Or something like that. Which is simply over my head
if
> someone doesn't lay it out fully in full grammar. There is not any
problem
> here on my part. I depend on clarity in what I'm reading, and from
your
> reassurance that I was overcomplicating my question, I can only infer
that
> you thought you'd said something that you actually hadn't. Again, I'm
> speaking about something you might consider needlessly formal and
overly
> literal. but I'm not. it's just that you can't talk casually like that
> with
> people who don't share your knowledge to begin with as a context. And
I am
> not one of those people. I have no idea what underlies such a
statement so
> that it has meaning to someone who's more savvy about this stuff than
I
> am.
> thus I can't learn anything at all when people talk shorthand to me
about
> something I'm unfamiliar with in the first place.
>
> Granted, maybe you'll say you thought anyone intelligent would know
what
> you
> know to begin with, but that's just your idea, if that's what you're
> thinking. I'm kind of sorry I asked. I know nothing about how screen
> readers
> work or what Word quote gets unquote from the Web. that doesn't make
any
> sense to me in the sense that I think of Word as a self-contained,
offline
> app that's on my hard drive and not downloading anything from the Web.
> See?
> You didn't mean that, I'm sure.
>
> Let's not go into this anymore. I'll learn all this some other way.
Just
> don't like being corrected when it's about writing clearly and
explaining
> something fully. In my career as a professional writer and editor, I
had
> technical writing jobs in which the research part consisted entirely
of
> being assigned to a software engineer who'd designed the application
for
> which I was writing a user's manual. I had to spend hours interviewing
> guys
> like this and finding different ways to ask them questions until they
> realized that just because I was also an educated person did not mean
I
> was
> like one of their tech-savvy pals and understood their shorthand. Then
> we'd
> find a figurative way for them to explain the concept to me, I'd
translate
> that into a straightforward explanation, then I'd use those notes to
write
> the documentation for the end users. It was sometimes an exhausting
> process,
> but I was good at it. If I were being paid, now is one of those
situations
> where I'd ask again and again until I broke through something and got
an
> understandable answer that I could rephrase in order to write the
> instruction.
>
> Just too tired and sick to be so diplomatic that I just say "sorry,
stupid
> question, no problem, dude." Don't know if that makes sense to you,
but
> glad
> I let myself explain. No offense intended. Again, I'm not arguing and
I
> don't want anyone flaming me for saying what I've said here.
>
> Joel
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chris G" <chris at mysticplace.org>
> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, July 27, 2009 3:13 PM
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>
>
> Hi,
> No,
> Your making it more complicated.
>
> I was comparing the fact that voiceover uses the web browsers document
> object model like window-eyes uses words document object model.
>
> Basically both programs talk to the application and don't guess.
>
>
>
> On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 10:03:33 -0700
> "Joel Deutsch" <jdeutsch at dslextreme.com> wrote:
>
>> Excuse me, because I'm a jaws user, and also a Word user. Why on
earth
>> would
>> a screen reader program have to go onto the Web in the course of you
>> using
>> Word to compose a document?
>>
>> I have a feeling you must mean something specific without having said
so.
>> Like the way Word modified the thesaurus function or the dictionary
>> function
>> so that you're encouraged to activate controls that refer you to
>> Word-related online sources? Is that what you meant? Because I have
to
>> presume that in the normal course of writing and editing in Word, you
>> aren't
>> "cloud computing" but simply using an app that's right there on your
very
>> own hard drive.
>>
>> Thanks for straightening me out if I need straightening out on this.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Chris G" <chris at mysticplace.org>
>> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, July 27, 2009 9:30 AM
>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>>
>>
>> If I'm not mistaken it gets it's information directly from the web
>> browser, like Window-eyes does in word.
>>
>> VO talks to the web browser directly.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 10:43:40 -0400
>> "albert griffith" <albertgriffith at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>> > Do you have an understanding of how the technology is different
from
>> > the
>> > other screen readers which use a virtual buffer to configure web
pages?
>> > I
>> > think you said this contributed to their slow load time.
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
[mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> > On
>> > Behalf Of Mike Arrigo
>> > Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 6:18 PM
>> > To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>> > Subject: Re: [gui-talk] [Bulk] Re: Voiceover
>> >
>> > Hi, I just meant that it doesn't read everything in a random order,
>> > the page is presented the way you would expect.
>> > On Jul 26, 2009, at 2:15 PM, tunecollector wrote:
>> >
>> > > What do you mean that it is presented in the right order?
What's
>> > > the right
>> > > order?
>> > >
>> > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-
>> > > bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> > > Behalf Of Mike Arrigo
>> > > Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 12:08 PM
>> > > To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>> > > Subject: [Bulk] Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>> > >
>> > > Well, the information is presented in the right order, it's not
>> > > jumbled the way it would be if you read the screen with the mouse
>> > > cursor if that makes any sense.
>> > > On Jul 26, 2009, at 1:55 PM, albert griffith wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> Having the latitude to hear just what you want can be a real
curse.
>> > >> Consider the difference between simple document presentation and
>> > >> screen
>> > >> layout when surfing the internet. Using the screen layout shows
you
>> > >> everything on the screen just as it's been designed to be seen
but
>> > >> it raises
>> > >> havoc with efforts to browse efficiently in most cases. I'm
glad
>> > >> Freedom
>> > >> Scientific gives me the choices but I find it's generally more
>> > >> efficient to
>> > >> let them determine how data is presented.
>> > >>
>> > >> -----Original Message-----
>> > >> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-
>> > >> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> > >> Behalf Of Mike Arrigo
>> > >> Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 9:46 AM
>> > >> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>> > >> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>> > >>
>> > >> Well, at the beginning of each section, it says in Windows, this
is
>> > >> how things work. That should never have been there as the way
>> > >> windows
>> > >> does things is makes o difference in this case. I would say the
main
>> > >> difference between voice over and windows screen readers can be
>> > >> summed
>> > >> up this way. In windows, the screen reader usually automatically
>> > >> indicates what you need to focus on. On the mac, the information
is
>> > >> still all available to you, however, voice over does not decide
what
>> > >> should be spoken. You use the voice over cursor keys to indicate
>> > >> what
>> > >> you want read. If you want a progress bar automatically
announced
>> > >> for
>> > >> example, you can set your voice over cursor on it and voice over
>> > >> will
>> > >> continue to read it. When you've heard enough, simply move the
>> > >> cursor
>> > >> to another item. Yes, this does mean that there is more
navigation
>> > >> involved in using the mac, no question about that. However, this
>> > >> allows the end user to decide what they want spoken instead of
the
>> > >> computer making those decisions. Neither approach is better,
they're
>> > >> just different.
>> > >> On Jul 25, 2009, at 9:51 PM, albert griffith wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >>> Mike, I didn't think the author of the article was knocking the
>> > >>> screen
>> > >>> reader because it didn't perform like windows but that it was
too
>> > >>> stroke
>> > >>> intensive and often didn't offer enough verbosity for adequate
>> > >>> feedback.
>> > >>> While Apple's product doesn't need to imitate Windows it should
>> > >>> offer
>> > >>> assistance that's convenient and adequate to the assigned task.
It
>> > >>> appears
>> > >>> too many of the protocols required to complete tasks are
lacking in
>> > >>> one or
>> > >>> both of these critical elements.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> -----Original Message-----
>> > >>> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-
>> > >>> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> > >>> Behalf Of Mike Arrigo
>> > >>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 7:48 PM
>> > >>> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>> > >>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>> > >>>
>> > >>> That was the big mistake of this article, the concept seemed to
be,
>> > >>> windows does it this way, and if the mac does it differently,
it's
>> > >>> a
>> > >>> problem. There are several similarities between the mac and
>> > >>> windows,
>> > >>> but expecting the mac to work the exact same way is a recipe
for
>> > >>> frustration. In my pod casts on blindcooltech, I try my best to
>> > >>> make
>> > >>> comparisons when they're appropriate, but also remind the
listener
>> > >>> that it's not windows, and therefore will not behave the same.
>> > >>> On Jul 25, 2009, at 2:24 PM, Ray Foret jr wrote:
>> > >>>
>> > >>>> Granted, Voice over is well worth serious consideration; but,
>> > >>>> Kevin,
>> > >>>> there's
>> > >>>> no need to get unpleasant about it. The NFB's perspective was
>> > >>>> written from
>> > >>>> a Windows users point of view because that's what most blind
>> > >>>> computer users
>> > >>>> are familiar with. Like it or not, this is so. I always hear
>> > >>>> Voice
>> > >>>> Over
>> > >>>> users say "You can't compare the Mac to Windows.". Fair
enough.
>> > >>>> So, in
>> > >>>> that case, why not truly help us Windows users get to know
Voice
>> > >>>> Over better
>> > >>>> instead of just criticizing us just because we do what it is
human
>> > >>>> nature to
>> > >>>> do; compare one thing to another. I grant you that the Mac is
>> > >>>> worth
>> > >>>> serious
>> > >>>> consideration; and, If I wasn't still paying for this lap top,
I
>> > >>>> would
>> > >>>> indeed very seriously look at Voice Over. Let me give you an
>> > >>>> example of how
>> > >>>> Voice Over users can be more helpful. In the NFB article, it
is
>> > >>>> stated that
>> > >>>> when you press the space bar to check or uncheck items on a
web
>> > >>>> page, Voice
>> > >>>> Over does not tell you whether an item is checked or
unchecked. I
>> > >>>> believe
>> > >>>> this is true; however, there is another factor. The article
then
>> > >>>> goes on to
>> > >>>> incorrectly state that there is no way without fumbling
around, to
>> > >>>> determine
>> > >>>> whether an item is checked or not. As I understand it, there
is a
>> > >>>> special
>> > >>>> Voice over key command which is used to check or uncheck items
on
>> > >>>> web pages.
>> > >>>> When this key stroke is used, Voice over will tell you at once
>> > >>>> whether an
>> > >>>> item is checked or unchecked. Now, it's quite clear to me
that
>> > >>>> the
>> > >>>> fellow
>> > >>>> reviewing Voice Over for the NFB did not know this fact. but,
I
>> > >>>> ask
>> > >>>> you,
>> > >>>> why did not some voice over users help him with the trouble he
was
>> > >>>> having?
>> > >>>> Why did the NFB not seek help from Voice Over users? Well, I
>> > >>>> think
>> > >>>> I can
>> > >>>> answer that one. He wanted to deal with Voice Over from the
stand
>> > >>>> point of
>> > >>>> a strictly out of the box experience. IN other words, his
logic
>> > >>>> was
>> > >>>> this.
>> > >>>> "Let me see what I can learn about Voice Over strictly from
the
>> > >>>> help
>> > >>>> and
>> > >>>> what ever documentation I can access on my own.". Fair
enough;
>> > >>>> but,
>> > >>>> let's
>> > >>>> think a bit. How many Windows users do you know who rely just
on
>> > >>>> the built
>> > >>>> in help and what documentation they can read on their own?
Well,
>> > >>>> I
>> > >>>> sure
>> > >>>> don't know too many myself. Most Windows users go to one
another
>> > >>>> for help
>> > >>>> and we help each other. Why, therefore, did the NFB fellow
not
>> > >>>> seek
>> > >>>> help in
>> > >>>> the same way from Mac users? A fair question I think.
Frankly, I
>> > >>>> am
>> > >>>> perfectly willing to take a look at Voice over, not so much
from
>> > >>>> the
>> > >>>> NFB
>> > >>>> stand point; nor from a Voice Over defense point of view. My
look
>> > >>>> will be
>> > >>>> based a bit on both and I will be wanting to get very
objective
>> > >>>> information.
>> > >>>> I don't think I can count on either the NFB or Voice Over
devotees
>> > >>>> to be
>> > >>>> truly objective; and, therefore, the best strategy I can think
of
>> > >>>> is
>> > >>>> to take
>> > >>>> the best of both and make your own decision.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> Sincerely,
>> > >>>> The Constantly BAREFOOTED Ray
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> "Old friend, what are you looking for? After those many years
>> > >>>> abroad you
>> > >>>> come With images you tended Under foreign skies Far away from
your
>> > >>>> own land"
>> > >>>> George Seferis
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> Phone or Fax::
>> > >>>> +1 (985) 360-3614
>> > >>>> Cell:
>> > >>>> +1 (985) 791-2938
>> > >>>> e-mail:
>> > >>>> rforetjratcomcastdotnet
>> > >>>> Skype Name:
>> > >>>> barefootedray
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> ----- Original Message -----
>> > >>>> From: "Kevin Fjelsted" <kfjelsted at gmail.com>
>> > >>>> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> > >>>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 12:49 PM
>> > >>>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> VoiceOver is absolutely awesome. A superb resource for reading
>> > >>>> details
>> > >>>> from a community perspective is http://www.lioncourt.com.
>> > >>>> I thhink that the exciting thing about VoiceOver is that the
stars
>> > >>>> are
>> > >>>> aligned for us. 1) Apple is making record profits and is
applying
>> > >>>> resources in support of VoiceOver access across there entire
>> > >>>> product
>> > >>>> line including mobile devices. The fact that the NFB
technology
>> > >>>> center
>> > >>>> chooses to publish inaccuracies and propaganda
>> > >>>> which is so misleading must mean that the existing companies
like
>> > >>>> Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to rally
>> > >>>> resources
>> > >>>> to
>> > >>>> quash VoiceOver usage. When ever we see established
organizations
>> > >>>> becoming defensive it is time to really dig under the covers
and
>> > >>>> ask
>> > >>>> the reasons why. In my opinion every blind person who relies
on
>> > >>>> accessibility technology for computers and mobile devices
needs to
>> > >>>> look at VoiceOver as well as the other technologies and
>> > >>>> proactively
>> > >>>> push the envelope so that we can create momentum for
transparency.
>> > >>>> My
>> > >>>> question is, why aren't all of the vendors emulating the
>> > >>>> approach
>> > >>>> of
>> > >>>> VoiceOver, which is to have built in accessibility to the
device
>> > >>>> out
>> > >>>> of the box without charging extra? WHen I can pay $190 for a
cell
>> > >>>> phone that has built in accessibility I find that amazing
compared
>> > >>>> to
>> > >>>> spending money for a cell phone and then having to turn around
and
>> > >>>> buy
>> > >>>> a 3rd party access solution that in many cases only works half
>> > >>>> baked.
>> > >>>> Not only do I get a cell phone for $190 but I get all the
built in
>> > >>>> apps talking clock, calculator, maps, weather forecasting,
text
>> > >>>> messaging, address book management, calendaring including
syncing
>> > >>>> with
>> > >>>> other calendars. For years blind people have taken the
position
>> > >>>> that
>> > >>>> touch screens are the enemy and that we can't use them. Yet
the
>> > >>>> IPhone
>> > >>>> with VoiceOver is totally dependent on the touch screen. I do
>> > >>>> everything with the touch screen look at email, update my
>> > >>>> calendar,
>> > >>>> make phone calls,.... -Kevin Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 10:26 AM,
>> > >>>> tunecollector<tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> > >>>>> This subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but
has
>> > >>>>> anyone
>> > >>>>> used
>> > >>>>> it more intensively since then? Is it ready for prime time?
What
>> > >>>>> are its
>> > >>>>> drawbacks.
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________
>> > >>>>> gui-talk mailing list
>> > >>>>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> > >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
info
>> > >>>>> for
>> > >>>>> gui-talk:
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>
>> > >
>> >
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gm
ail
>> > >>> .
>> > >>> com
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> --
>> > >>>> Kevin Fjelsted
>> > >>>> B Harris, Inc.
>> > >>>> http://www.bharrisinc.com
>> > >>>> kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
>> > >>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
>> > >>>> Phone: 612.424.7333 EX. 301
>> > >>>> Direct: 612.424.7332
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> _______________________________________________
>> > >>>> gui-talk mailing list
>> > >>>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> > >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
info
>> > >>>> for
>> > >>>> gui-talk:
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>
>> > >
>> >
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/rforetjr%40com
cast
>> > >>> .net
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> _______________________________________________
>> > >>>> gui-talk mailing list
>> > >>>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> > >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
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>> > >>>> for gui-talk:
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>
>> > >
>> >
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/n0oxy%40charte
r.ne
>> > >>> t
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>> _______________________________________________
>> > >>> gui-talk mailing list
>> > >>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
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>> > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
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>> > >>> for
>> > >>> gui-talk:
>> > >>>
>> > >>
>> > >
>> >
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/albertgriffith
%40s
>> > >>> bcglobal.net
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>> _______________________________________________
>> > >>> gui-talk mailing list
>> > >>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
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>> > >>
>> > >
>> >
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r.ne
>> > >> t
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> _______________________________________________
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>> >
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%40s
>> > >> bcglobal.net
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> _______________________________________________
>> > >> gui-talk mailing list
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r.ne
>> > > t
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > gui-talk mailing list
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40sb
>> > > cglobal.net
>> > >
>> > >
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>> >
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>> >
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>> > gui-talk:
>> >
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/chris%40mystic
place.org
>>
>>
>> --
>> The home of the Mystic Place blog and podcast.
>> www.mysticplace.info
>> RSS: feeds.feedburner.com/mysticplacebp
>>
>>
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>> gui-talk:
>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/chris%40mystic
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>
>
> --
> The home of the Mystic Place blog and podcast.
> www.mysticplace.info
> RSS: feeds.feedburner.com/mysticplacebp
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> gui-talk mailing list
> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
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>
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>
>
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> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
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>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/flmom2006%40gm
ail.com
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