[gui-talk] Voiceover

Mon Jul 27 22:13:00 UTC 2009

Hi,
No,
Your making it more complicated.

I was comparing the fact that voiceover uses the web browsers document
object model like window-eyes uses words document object model.

Basically both programs talk to the application and don't guess.

On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 10:03:33 -0700
"Joel Deutsch" <jdeutsch at dslextreme.com> wrote:

> Excuse me, because I'm a jaws user, and also a Word user. Why on earth would 
> a screen reader program have to go onto the Web in the course of you using 
> Word to compose a document?
> 
> I have a feeling you must mean something specific without having said so. 
> Like the way Word modified the thesaurus function or the dictionary function 
> so that you're encouraged to activate controls that refer you to 
> Word-related online sources? Is that what you meant? Because I have to 
> presume that in the normal course of writing and editing in Word, you aren't 
> "cloud computing" but simply using an app that's right there on your very 
> own hard drive.
> 
> Thanks for straightening me out if I need straightening out on this.
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Chris G" <chris at mysticplace.org>
> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, July 27, 2009 9:30 AM
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
> 
> 
> If I'm not mistaken it gets it's information directly from the web
> browser, like Window-eyes does in word.
> 
> VO talks to the web browser directly.
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 10:43:40 -0400
> "albert griffith" <albertgriffith at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> 
> > Do you have an understanding of how the technology is different from the
> > other screen readers which use a virtual buffer to configure web pages?  I
> > think you said this contributed to their slow load time.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> > Behalf Of Mike Arrigo
> > Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 6:18 PM
> > To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [gui-talk] [Bulk] Re: Voiceover
> >
> > Hi, I just meant that it doesn't read everything in a random order,
> > the page is presented the way you would expect.
> > On Jul 26, 2009, at 2:15 PM, tunecollector wrote:
> >
> > > What do you mean that it is presented  in the right order?  What's
> > > the right
> > > order?
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-
> > > bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> > > Behalf Of Mike Arrigo
> > > Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 12:08 PM
> > > To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
> > > Subject: [Bulk] Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
> > >
> > > Well, the information is presented in the right order, it's not
> > > jumbled the way it would be if you read the screen with the mouse
> > > cursor if that makes any sense.
> > > On Jul 26, 2009, at 1:55 PM, albert griffith wrote:
> > >
> > >> Having the latitude to hear just what you want can be a real curse.
> > >> Consider the difference between simple document presentation and
> > >> screen
> > >> layout when surfing the internet.  Using the screen layout shows you
> > >> everything on the screen just as it's been designed to be seen but
> > >> it raises
> > >> havoc with efforts to browse efficiently in most cases.  I'm glad
> > >> Freedom
> > >> Scientific gives me the choices but I find it's generally more
> > >> efficient to
> > >> let them determine how data is presented.
> > >>
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-
> > >> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> > >> Behalf Of Mike Arrigo
> > >> Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 9:46 AM
> > >> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
> > >> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
> > >>
> > >> Well, at the beginning of each section, it says in Windows, this is
> > >> how things work. That should never have been there as the way windows
> > >> does things is makes o difference in this case. I would say the main
> > >> difference between voice over and windows screen readers can be
> > >> summed
> > >> up this way. In windows, the screen reader usually automatically
> > >> indicates what you need to focus on. On the mac, the information is
> > >> still all available to you, however, voice over does not decide what
> > >> should be spoken. You use the voice over cursor keys to indicate what
> > >> you want read. If you want a progress bar automatically announced for
> > >> example, you can set your voice over cursor on it and voice over will
> > >> continue to read it. When you've heard enough, simply move the cursor
> > >> to another item. Yes, this does mean that there is more navigation
> > >> involved in using the mac, no question about that. However, this
> > >> allows the end user to decide what they want spoken instead of the
> > >> computer making those decisions. Neither approach is better, they're
> > >> just different.
> > >> On Jul 25, 2009, at 9:51 PM, albert griffith wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Mike, I didn't think the author of the article was knocking the
> > >>> screen
> > >>> reader because it didn't perform like windows but that it was too
> > >>> stroke
> > >>> intensive and often didn't offer enough verbosity for adequate
> > >>> feedback.
> > >>> While Apple's product doesn't need to imitate Windows it should
> > >>> offer
> > >>> assistance that's convenient and adequate to the assigned task.  It
> > >>> appears
> > >>> too many of the protocols required to complete tasks are lacking in
> > >>> one or
> > >>> both of these critical elements.
> > >>>
> > >>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-
> > >>> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> > >>> Behalf Of Mike Arrigo
> > >>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 7:48 PM
> > >>> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
> > >>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
> > >>>
> > >>> That was the big mistake of this article, the concept seemed to be,
> > >>> windows does it this way, and if the mac does it differently, it's a
> > >>> problem. There are several similarities between the mac and windows,
> > >>> but expecting the mac to work the exact same way is a recipe for
> > >>> frustration. In my pod casts on blindcooltech, I try my best to make
> > >>> comparisons when they're appropriate, but also remind the listener
> > >>> that it's not windows, and therefore will not behave the same.
> > >>> On Jul 25, 2009, at 2:24 PM, Ray Foret jr wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> Granted, Voice over is well worth serious consideration; but,
> > >>>> Kevin,
> > >>>> there's
> > >>>> no need to get unpleasant about it.  The NFB's perspective was
> > >>>> written from
> > >>>> a Windows users point of view because that's what most blind
> > >>>> computer users
> > >>>> are familiar with.  Like it or not, this is so.  I always hear
> > >>>> Voice
> > >>>> Over
> > >>>> users say "You can't compare the Mac to Windows.".  Fair enough.
> > >>>> So, in
> > >>>> that case, why not truly help us Windows users get to know Voice
> > >>>> Over better
> > >>>> instead of just criticizing us just because we do what it is human
> > >>>> nature to
> > >>>> do; compare one thing to another.  I grant you that the Mac is
> > >>>> worth
> > >>>> serious
> > >>>> consideration; and, If I wasn't still paying for this lap top, I
> > >>>> would
> > >>>> indeed very seriously look at Voice Over.  Let me give you an
> > >>>> example of how
> > >>>> Voice Over users can be more helpful.  In the NFB article, it is
> > >>>> stated that
> > >>>> when you press the space bar to check or uncheck items on a web
> > >>>> page, Voice
> > >>>> Over does not tell you whether an item is checked or unchecked.  I
> > >>>> believe
> > >>>> this is true; however, there is another factor.  The article then
> > >>>> goes on to
> > >>>> incorrectly state that there is no way without fumbling around, to
> > >>>> determine
> > >>>> whether an item is checked or not.  As I understand it, there is a
> > >>>> special
> > >>>> Voice over key command which is used to check or uncheck items on
> > >>>> web pages.
> > >>>> When this key stroke is used, Voice over will tell you at once
> > >>>> whether an
> > >>>> item is checked or unchecked.  Now, it's quite clear to me that the
> > >>>> fellow
> > >>>> reviewing Voice Over for the NFB did not know this fact.  but, I
> > >>>> ask
> > >>>> you,
> > >>>> why did not some voice over users help him with the trouble he was
> > >>>> having?
> > >>>> Why did the NFB not seek help from Voice Over users?  Well, I think
> > >>>> I can
> > >>>> answer that one.  He wanted to deal with Voice Over from the stand
> > >>>> point of
> > >>>> a strictly out of the box experience.  IN other words, his logic
> > >>>> was
> > >>>> this.
> > >>>> "Let me see what I can learn about Voice Over strictly from the
> > >>>> help
> > >>>> and
> > >>>> what ever documentation I can access on my own.".  Fair enough;
> > >>>> but,
> > >>>> let's
> > >>>> think a bit.  How many Windows users do you know who rely just on
> > >>>> the built
> > >>>> in help and what documentation they can read on their own?  Well, I
> > >>>> sure
> > >>>> don't know too many myself.  Most Windows users go to one another
> > >>>> for help
> > >>>> and we help each other.  Why, therefore, did the NFB fellow not
> > >>>> seek
> > >>>> help in
> > >>>> the same way from Mac users?  A fair question I think.  Frankly, I
> > >>>> am
> > >>>> perfectly willing to take a look at Voice over, not so much from
> > >>>> the
> > >>>> NFB
> > >>>> stand point; nor from a Voice Over defense point of view.  My look
> > >>>> will be
> > >>>> based a bit on both and I will be wanting to get very objective
> > >>>> information.
> > >>>> I don't think I can count on either the NFB or Voice Over devotees
> > >>>> to be
> > >>>> truly objective; and, therefore, the best strategy I can think of
> > >>>> is
> > >>>> to take
> > >>>> the best of both and make your own decision.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Sincerely,
> > >>>> The Constantly BAREFOOTED Ray
> > >>>>
> > >>>> "Old friend, what are you looking for?  After those many years
> > >>>> abroad you
> > >>>> come With images you tended Under foreign skies Far away from your
> > >>>> own land"
> > >>>> George Seferis
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Phone or Fax::
> > >>>> +1 (985) 360-3614
> > >>>> Cell:
> > >>>> +1 (985) 791-2938
> > >>>> e-mail:
> > >>>> rforetjratcomcastdotnet
> > >>>> Skype Name:
> > >>>> barefootedray
> > >>>>
> > >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> > >>>> From: "Kevin Fjelsted" <kfjelsted at gmail.com>
> > >>>> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> > >>>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 12:49 PM
> > >>>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> VoiceOver is absolutely awesome. A superb resource for reading
> > >>>> details
> > >>>> from a community perspective is http://www.lioncourt.com.
> > >>>> I thhink that the exciting thing about VoiceOver is that the stars
> > >>>> are
> > >>>> aligned for us. 1) Apple is making record profits and is applying
> > >>>> resources in support of  VoiceOver access across there entire
> > >>>> product
> > >>>> line including mobile devices. The fact that the NFB technology
> > >>>> center
> > >>>> chooses to publish inaccuracies and propaganda
> > >>>> which is so misleading must mean that the existing companies like
> > >>>> Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to rally resources
> > >>>> to
> > >>>> quash VoiceOver usage. When ever we see established organizations
> > >>>> becoming defensive it is time to really dig under the covers and
> > >>>> ask
> > >>>> the reasons why. In my opinion every blind person who relies on
> > >>>> accessibility technology for computers and mobile devices needs to
> > >>>> look at VoiceOver as well as the other technologies and proactively
> > >>>> push the envelope so that we can create momentum for transparency.
> > >>>> My
> > >>>> question is, why aren't  all of the vendors  emulating the approach
> > >>>> of
> > >>>> VoiceOver, which is to have built in accessibility to the device
> > >>>> out
> > >>>> of the box without charging extra? WHen I can pay $190 for a cell
> > >>>> phone that has built in accessibility I find that amazing compared
> > >>>> to
> > >>>> spending money for a cell phone and then having to turn around and
> > >>>> buy
> > >>>> a 3rd party access solution that in many cases only works half
> > >>>> baked.
> > >>>> Not only do I get a cell phone for $190 but I get all the built in
> > >>>> apps talking clock, calculator, maps, weather forecasting, text
> > >>>> messaging, address book management, calendaring including syncing
> > >>>> with
> > >>>> other calendars. For years blind people have taken the position
> > >>>> that
> > >>>> touch screens are the enemy and that we can't use them. Yet the
> > >>>> IPhone
> > >>>> with VoiceOver is totally dependent on the touch screen. I do
> > >>>> everything with the touch screen look at email, update my calendar,
> > >>>> make phone calls,....   -Kevin Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 10:26 AM,
> > >>>> tunecollector<tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > >>>>> This subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has
> > >>>>> anyone
> > >>>>> used
> > >>>>> it more intensively since then? Is it ready for prime time? What
> > >>>>> are its
> > >>>>> drawbacks.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>>> gui-talk mailing list
> > >>>>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> > >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> > >>>>> for
> > >>>>> gui-talk:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail
> > >>> .
> > >>> com
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> -- 
> > >>>> Kevin Fjelsted
> > >>>> B Harris, Inc.
> > >>>> http://www.bharrisinc.com
> > >>>> kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
> > >>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
> > >>>> Phone:   612.424.7333 EX. 301
> > >>>> Direct:  612.424.7332
> > >>>>
> > >>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>> gui-talk mailing list
> > >>>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> > >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
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> > >>>> for
> > >>>> gui-talk:
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/rforetjr%40comcast
> > >>> .net
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>> gui-talk mailing list
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> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/n0oxy%40charter.ne
> > >>> t
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >>> gui-talk mailing list
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> > >>>
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> > >
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/albertgriffith%40s
> > >>> bcglobal.net
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >>> gui-talk mailing list
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> > >>
> > >
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/n0oxy%40charter.ne
> > >> t
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
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> > >
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> > >> bcglobal.net
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> gui-talk mailing list
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> > > t
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > >
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