[gui-talk] Voiceover
Chris G
chris at mysticplace.org
Mon Jul 27 16:30:29 UTC 2009
If I'm not mistaken it gets it's information directly from the web
browser, like Window-eyes does in word.
VO talks to the web browser directly.
On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 10:43:40 -0400
"albert griffith" <albertgriffith at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Do you have an understanding of how the technology is different from the
> other screen readers which use a virtual buffer to configure web pages? I
> think you said this contributed to their slow load time.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Mike Arrigo
> Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 6:18 PM
> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] [Bulk] Re: Voiceover
>
> Hi, I just meant that it doesn't read everything in a random order,
> the page is presented the way you would expect.
> On Jul 26, 2009, at 2:15 PM, tunecollector wrote:
>
> > What do you mean that it is presented in the right order? What's
> > the right
> > order?
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-
> > bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> > Behalf Of Mike Arrigo
> > Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 12:08 PM
> > To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
> > Subject: [Bulk] Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
> >
> > Well, the information is presented in the right order, it's not
> > jumbled the way it would be if you read the screen with the mouse
> > cursor if that makes any sense.
> > On Jul 26, 2009, at 1:55 PM, albert griffith wrote:
> >
> >> Having the latitude to hear just what you want can be a real curse.
> >> Consider the difference between simple document presentation and
> >> screen
> >> layout when surfing the internet. Using the screen layout shows you
> >> everything on the screen just as it's been designed to be seen but
> >> it raises
> >> havoc with efforts to browse efficiently in most cases. I'm glad
> >> Freedom
> >> Scientific gives me the choices but I find it's generally more
> >> efficient to
> >> let them determine how data is presented.
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-
> >> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> >> Behalf Of Mike Arrigo
> >> Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 9:46 AM
> >> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
> >> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
> >>
> >> Well, at the beginning of each section, it says in Windows, this is
> >> how things work. That should never have been there as the way windows
> >> does things is makes o difference in this case. I would say the main
> >> difference between voice over and windows screen readers can be
> >> summed
> >> up this way. In windows, the screen reader usually automatically
> >> indicates what you need to focus on. On the mac, the information is
> >> still all available to you, however, voice over does not decide what
> >> should be spoken. You use the voice over cursor keys to indicate what
> >> you want read. If you want a progress bar automatically announced for
> >> example, you can set your voice over cursor on it and voice over will
> >> continue to read it. When you've heard enough, simply move the cursor
> >> to another item. Yes, this does mean that there is more navigation
> >> involved in using the mac, no question about that. However, this
> >> allows the end user to decide what they want spoken instead of the
> >> computer making those decisions. Neither approach is better, they're
> >> just different.
> >> On Jul 25, 2009, at 9:51 PM, albert griffith wrote:
> >>
> >>> Mike, I didn't think the author of the article was knocking the
> >>> screen
> >>> reader because it didn't perform like windows but that it was too
> >>> stroke
> >>> intensive and often didn't offer enough verbosity for adequate
> >>> feedback.
> >>> While Apple's product doesn't need to imitate Windows it should
> >>> offer
> >>> assistance that's convenient and adequate to the assigned task. It
> >>> appears
> >>> too many of the protocols required to complete tasks are lacking in
> >>> one or
> >>> both of these critical elements.
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-
> >>> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> >>> Behalf Of Mike Arrigo
> >>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 7:48 PM
> >>> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
> >>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
> >>>
> >>> That was the big mistake of this article, the concept seemed to be,
> >>> windows does it this way, and if the mac does it differently, it's a
> >>> problem. There are several similarities between the mac and windows,
> >>> but expecting the mac to work the exact same way is a recipe for
> >>> frustration. In my pod casts on blindcooltech, I try my best to make
> >>> comparisons when they're appropriate, but also remind the listener
> >>> that it's not windows, and therefore will not behave the same.
> >>> On Jul 25, 2009, at 2:24 PM, Ray Foret jr wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Granted, Voice over is well worth serious consideration; but,
> >>>> Kevin,
> >>>> there's
> >>>> no need to get unpleasant about it. The NFB's perspective was
> >>>> written from
> >>>> a Windows users point of view because that's what most blind
> >>>> computer users
> >>>> are familiar with. Like it or not, this is so. I always hear
> >>>> Voice
> >>>> Over
> >>>> users say "You can't compare the Mac to Windows.". Fair enough.
> >>>> So, in
> >>>> that case, why not truly help us Windows users get to know Voice
> >>>> Over better
> >>>> instead of just criticizing us just because we do what it is human
> >>>> nature to
> >>>> do; compare one thing to another. I grant you that the Mac is
> >>>> worth
> >>>> serious
> >>>> consideration; and, If I wasn't still paying for this lap top, I
> >>>> would
> >>>> indeed very seriously look at Voice Over. Let me give you an
> >>>> example of how
> >>>> Voice Over users can be more helpful. In the NFB article, it is
> >>>> stated that
> >>>> when you press the space bar to check or uncheck items on a web
> >>>> page, Voice
> >>>> Over does not tell you whether an item is checked or unchecked. I
> >>>> believe
> >>>> this is true; however, there is another factor. The article then
> >>>> goes on to
> >>>> incorrectly state that there is no way without fumbling around, to
> >>>> determine
> >>>> whether an item is checked or not. As I understand it, there is a
> >>>> special
> >>>> Voice over key command which is used to check or uncheck items on
> >>>> web pages.
> >>>> When this key stroke is used, Voice over will tell you at once
> >>>> whether an
> >>>> item is checked or unchecked. Now, it's quite clear to me that the
> >>>> fellow
> >>>> reviewing Voice Over for the NFB did not know this fact. but, I
> >>>> ask
> >>>> you,
> >>>> why did not some voice over users help him with the trouble he was
> >>>> having?
> >>>> Why did the NFB not seek help from Voice Over users? Well, I think
> >>>> I can
> >>>> answer that one. He wanted to deal with Voice Over from the stand
> >>>> point of
> >>>> a strictly out of the box experience. IN other words, his logic
> >>>> was
> >>>> this.
> >>>> "Let me see what I can learn about Voice Over strictly from the
> >>>> help
> >>>> and
> >>>> what ever documentation I can access on my own.". Fair enough;
> >>>> but,
> >>>> let's
> >>>> think a bit. How many Windows users do you know who rely just on
> >>>> the built
> >>>> in help and what documentation they can read on their own? Well, I
> >>>> sure
> >>>> don't know too many myself. Most Windows users go to one another
> >>>> for help
> >>>> and we help each other. Why, therefore, did the NFB fellow not
> >>>> seek
> >>>> help in
> >>>> the same way from Mac users? A fair question I think. Frankly, I
> >>>> am
> >>>> perfectly willing to take a look at Voice over, not so much from
> >>>> the
> >>>> NFB
> >>>> stand point; nor from a Voice Over defense point of view. My look
> >>>> will be
> >>>> based a bit on both and I will be wanting to get very objective
> >>>> information.
> >>>> I don't think I can count on either the NFB or Voice Over devotees
> >>>> to be
> >>>> truly objective; and, therefore, the best strategy I can think of
> >>>> is
> >>>> to take
> >>>> the best of both and make your own decision.
> >>>>
> >>>> Sincerely,
> >>>> The Constantly BAREFOOTED Ray
> >>>>
> >>>> "Old friend, what are you looking for? After those many years
> >>>> abroad you
> >>>> come With images you tended Under foreign skies Far away from your
> >>>> own land"
> >>>> George Seferis
> >>>>
> >>>> Phone or Fax::
> >>>> +1 (985) 360-3614
> >>>> Cell:
> >>>> +1 (985) 791-2938
> >>>> e-mail:
> >>>> rforetjratcomcastdotnet
> >>>> Skype Name:
> >>>> barefootedray
> >>>>
> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>> From: "Kevin Fjelsted" <kfjelsted at gmail.com>
> >>>> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> >>>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 12:49 PM
> >>>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> VoiceOver is absolutely awesome. A superb resource for reading
> >>>> details
> >>>> from a community perspective is http://www.lioncourt.com.
> >>>> I thhink that the exciting thing about VoiceOver is that the stars
> >>>> are
> >>>> aligned for us. 1) Apple is making record profits and is applying
> >>>> resources in support of VoiceOver access across there entire
> >>>> product
> >>>> line including mobile devices. The fact that the NFB technology
> >>>> center
> >>>> chooses to publish inaccuracies and propaganda
> >>>> which is so misleading must mean that the existing companies like
> >>>> Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to rally resources
> >>>> to
> >>>> quash VoiceOver usage. When ever we see established organizations
> >>>> becoming defensive it is time to really dig under the covers and
> >>>> ask
> >>>> the reasons why. In my opinion every blind person who relies on
> >>>> accessibility technology for computers and mobile devices needs to
> >>>> look at VoiceOver as well as the other technologies and proactively
> >>>> push the envelope so that we can create momentum for transparency.
> >>>> My
> >>>> question is, why aren't all of the vendors emulating the approach
> >>>> of
> >>>> VoiceOver, which is to have built in accessibility to the device
> >>>> out
> >>>> of the box without charging extra? WHen I can pay $190 for a cell
> >>>> phone that has built in accessibility I find that amazing compared
> >>>> to
> >>>> spending money for a cell phone and then having to turn around and
> >>>> buy
> >>>> a 3rd party access solution that in many cases only works half
> >>>> baked.
> >>>> Not only do I get a cell phone for $190 but I get all the built in
> >>>> apps talking clock, calculator, maps, weather forecasting, text
> >>>> messaging, address book management, calendaring including syncing
> >>>> with
> >>>> other calendars. For years blind people have taken the position
> >>>> that
> >>>> touch screens are the enemy and that we can't use them. Yet the
> >>>> IPhone
> >>>> with VoiceOver is totally dependent on the touch screen. I do
> >>>> everything with the touch screen look at email, update my calendar,
> >>>> make phone calls,.... -Kevin Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 10:26 AM,
> >>>> tunecollector<tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>> This subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has
> >>>>> anyone
> >>>>> used
> >>>>> it more intensively since then? Is it ready for prime time? What
> >>>>> are its
> >>>>> drawbacks.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>>> gui-talk:
> >>>>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail
> >>> .
> >>> com
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Kevin Fjelsted
> >>>> B Harris, Inc.
> >>>> http://www.bharrisinc.com
> >>>> kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
> >>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
> >>>> Phone: 612.424.7333 EX. 301
> >>>> Direct: 612.424.7332
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>>
> >>>>
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> >>>
> >>
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> >>> t
> >>>
> >>>
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> >>>
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> >>
> >>
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> >
> >
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