[gui-talk] what is wrong with the march for independence site?
Kenlawrence124 at aol.com
Kenlawrence124 at aol.com
Mon Jul 27 00:22:04 UTC 2009
Hi Logging in isn't the problem it seems to be trying to send emails to
your contacts. If you're not registered though, you wouldn't be able to
help the graphic buttons are in the send to field and they appear there and
they make it impossible to send messages.
I pledge to participate actively in the efforts of the national federation
of the blind to achieve equality, opportunity, and security for the blind;
to support the policies and programs of the federation; and abide by it's
constitution.
In a message dated 7/26/2009 6:33:12 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: [Bulk] Re: Voiceover (tunecollector)
2. Re: Voiceover (albert griffith)
3. Re: Voiceover (Steve Jacobson)
4. Re: iPhone Shopping (Elizabeth Campbell)
5. Re: FaceBook and MySpace (Lydia Grier)
6. Re: copyin and pasting links (Elizabeth Campbell)
7. Re: iPhone Shopping (Kris)
8. Re: FaceBook and MySpace (albert griffith)
9. Re: Voiceover (albert griffith)
10. Re: Voiceover (albert griffith)
11. Re: [Bulk] Re: Voiceover (tunecollector)
12. Re: FaceBook and MySpace (Lloyd Rasmussen)
13. Re: Voiceover (Mike Arrigo)
14. Re: Voiceover (Mike Arrigo)
15. Re: [Bulk] Re: Voiceover (Mike Arrigo)
16. Re: Voiceover (Mike Arrigo)
17. Re: Voiceover (Mike Arrigo)
18. Re: [Bulk] Re: Voiceover (Mike Arrigo)
19. Re: What is wrong with march for independence site?
(albert griffith)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 12:15:27 -0700
From: "tunecollector" <tunecollector at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] [Bulk] Re: Voiceover
To: "'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <A6C8FCB166A941849EAE5D41372C8AFB at computer>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
What do you mean that it is presented in the right order? What's the
right
order?
-----Original Message-----
From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Mike Arrigo
Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 12:08 PM
To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
Subject: [Bulk] Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
Well, the information is presented in the right order, it's not
jumbled the way it would be if you read the screen with the mouse
cursor if that makes any sense.
On Jul 26, 2009, at 1:55 PM, albert griffith wrote:
> Having the latitude to hear just what you want can be a real curse.
> Consider the difference between simple document presentation and
> screen
> layout when surfing the internet. Using the screen layout shows you
> everything on the screen just as it's been designed to be seen but
> it raises
> havoc with efforts to browse efficiently in most cases. I'm glad
> Freedom
> Scientific gives me the choices but I find it's generally more
> efficient to
> let them determine how data is presented.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-
> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Mike Arrigo
> Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 9:46 AM
> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>
> Well, at the beginning of each section, it says in Windows, this is
> how things work. That should never have been there as the way windows
> does things is makes o difference in this case. I would say the main
> difference between voice over and windows screen readers can be summed
> up this way. In windows, the screen reader usually automatically
> indicates what you need to focus on. On the mac, the information is
> still all available to you, however, voice over does not decide what
> should be spoken. You use the voice over cursor keys to indicate what
> you want read. If you want a progress bar automatically announced for
> example, you can set your voice over cursor on it and voice over will
> continue to read it. When you've heard enough, simply move the cursor
> to another item. Yes, this does mean that there is more navigation
> involved in using the mac, no question about that. However, this
> allows the end user to decide what they want spoken instead of the
> computer making those decisions. Neither approach is better, they're
> just different.
> On Jul 25, 2009, at 9:51 PM, albert griffith wrote:
>
>> Mike, I didn't think the author of the article was knocking the
>> screen
>> reader because it didn't perform like windows but that it was too
>> stroke
>> intensive and often didn't offer enough verbosity for adequate
>> feedback.
>> While Apple's product doesn't need to imitate Windows it should offer
>> assistance that's convenient and adequate to the assigned task. It
>> appears
>> too many of the protocols required to complete tasks are lacking in
>> one or
>> both of these critical elements.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-
>> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Mike Arrigo
>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 7:48 PM
>> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>>
>> That was the big mistake of this article, the concept seemed to be,
>> windows does it this way, and if the mac does it differently, it's a
>> problem. There are several similarities between the mac and windows,
>> but expecting the mac to work the exact same way is a recipe for
>> frustration. In my pod casts on blindcooltech, I try my best to make
>> comparisons when they're appropriate, but also remind the listener
>> that it's not windows, and therefore will not behave the same.
>> On Jul 25, 2009, at 2:24 PM, Ray Foret jr wrote:
>>
>>> Granted, Voice over is well worth serious consideration; but, Kevin,
>>> there's
>>> no need to get unpleasant about it. The NFB's perspective was
>>> written from
>>> a Windows users point of view because that's what most blind
>>> computer users
>>> are familiar with. Like it or not, this is so. I always hear Voice
>>> Over
>>> users say "You can't compare the Mac to Windows.". Fair enough.
>>> So, in
>>> that case, why not truly help us Windows users get to know Voice
>>> Over better
>>> instead of just criticizing us just because we do what it is human
>>> nature to
>>> do; compare one thing to another. I grant you that the Mac is worth
>>> serious
>>> consideration; and, If I wasn't still paying for this lap top, I
>>> would
>>> indeed very seriously look at Voice Over. Let me give you an
>>> example of how
>>> Voice Over users can be more helpful. In the NFB article, it is
>>> stated that
>>> when you press the space bar to check or uncheck items on a web
>>> page, Voice
>>> Over does not tell you whether an item is checked or unchecked. I
>>> believe
>>> this is true; however, there is another factor. The article then
>>> goes on to
>>> incorrectly state that there is no way without fumbling around, to
>>> determine
>>> whether an item is checked or not. As I understand it, there is a
>>> special
>>> Voice over key command which is used to check or uncheck items on
>>> web pages.
>>> When this key stroke is used, Voice over will tell you at once
>>> whether an
>>> item is checked or unchecked. Now, it's quite clear to me that the
>>> fellow
>>> reviewing Voice Over for the NFB did not know this fact. but, I ask
>>> you,
>>> why did not some voice over users help him with the trouble he was
>>> having?
>>> Why did the NFB not seek help from Voice Over users? Well, I think
>>> I can
>>> answer that one. He wanted to deal with Voice Over from the stand
>>> point of
>>> a strictly out of the box experience. IN other words, his logic was
>>> this.
>>> "Let me see what I can learn about Voice Over strictly from the help
>>> and
>>> what ever documentation I can access on my own.". Fair enough; but,
>>> let's
>>> think a bit. How many Windows users do you know who rely just on
>>> the built
>>> in help and what documentation they can read on their own? Well, I
>>> sure
>>> don't know too many myself. Most Windows users go to one another
>>> for help
>>> and we help each other. Why, therefore, did the NFB fellow not seek
>>> help in
>>> the same way from Mac users? A fair question I think. Frankly, I
>>> am
>>> perfectly willing to take a look at Voice over, not so much from the
>>> NFB
>>> stand point; nor from a Voice Over defense point of view. My look
>>> will be
>>> based a bit on both and I will be wanting to get very objective
>>> information.
>>> I don't think I can count on either the NFB or Voice Over devotees
>>> to be
>>> truly objective; and, therefore, the best strategy I can think of is
>>> to take
>>> the best of both and make your own decision.
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>> The Constantly BAREFOOTED Ray
>>>
>>> "Old friend, what are you looking for? After those many years
>>> abroad you
>>> come With images you tended Under foreign skies Far away from your
>>> own land"
>>> George Seferis
>>>
>>> Phone or Fax::
>>> +1 (985) 360-3614
>>> Cell:
>>> +1 (985) 791-2938
>>> e-mail:
>>> rforetjratcomcastdotnet
>>> Skype Name:
>>> barefootedray
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Kevin Fjelsted" <kfjelsted at gmail.com>
>>> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 12:49 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>>>
>>>
>>> VoiceOver is absolutely awesome. A superb resource for reading
>>> details
>>> from a community perspective is http://www.lioncourt.com.
>>> I thhink that the exciting thing about VoiceOver is that the stars
>>> are
>>> aligned for us. 1) Apple is making record profits and is applying
>>> resources in support of VoiceOver access across there entire
>>> product
>>> line including mobile devices. The fact that the NFB technology
>>> center
>>> chooses to publish inaccuracies and propaganda
>>> which is so misleading must mean that the existing companies like
>>> Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to rally resources
>>> to
>>> quash VoiceOver usage. When ever we see established organizations
>>> becoming defensive it is time to really dig under the covers and ask
>>> the reasons why. In my opinion every blind person who relies on
>>> accessibility technology for computers and mobile devices needs to
>>> look at VoiceOver as well as the other technologies and proactively
>>> push the envelope so that we can create momentum for transparency.
>>> My
>>> question is, why aren't all of the vendors emulating the approach
>>> of
>>> VoiceOver, which is to have built in accessibility to the device out
>>> of the box without charging extra? WHen I can pay $190 for a cell
>>> phone that has built in accessibility I find that amazing compared
>>> to
>>> spending money for a cell phone and then having to turn around and
>>> buy
>>> a 3rd party access solution that in many cases only works half
>>> baked.
>>> Not only do I get a cell phone for $190 but I get all the built in
>>> apps talking clock, calculator, maps, weather forecasting, text
>>> messaging, address book management, calendaring including syncing
>>> with
>>> other calendars. For years blind people have taken the position that
>>> touch screens are the enemy and that we can't use them. Yet the
>>> IPhone
>>> with VoiceOver is totally dependent on the touch screen. I do
>>> everything with the touch screen look at email, update my calendar,
>>> make phone calls,.... -Kevin Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 10:26 AM,
>>> tunecollector<tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>> This subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has
>>>> anyone
>>>> used
>>>> it more intensively since then? Is it ready for prime time? What
>>>> are its
>>>> drawbacks.
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> for
>>>> gui-talk:
>>>>
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail
>> .
>> com
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Kevin Fjelsted
>>> B Harris, Inc.
>>> http://www.bharrisinc.com
>>> kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
>>> Phone: 612.424.7333 EX. 301
>>> Direct: 612.424.7332
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>
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>> .net
>>>
>>>
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Message: 2
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 15:19:37 -0400
From: "albert griffith" <albertgriffith at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
To: "'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <006001ca0e26$047e90b0$0d7bb210$@net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I know if I'm to go much further in my exploration of voice over I'll have
to read a bunch of its help files but until then I have a couple of
beginner's questions; What is dom mode? Also, what
Is group mode? thanks
-----Original Message-----
From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Mike Arrigo
Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 1:35 PM
To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>From what I have heard, switching to group mode for navigating web
tables works very well, haven't tried it though since I just read
tables using the dom navigation and I am able to get the information
without problems.
On Jul 26, 2009, at 10:49 AM, Dean Martineau wrote:
> Until one can read tabular data on the Mac on the web, the browser
> wouldn't
> be worth much to me at all, and that would be a major reason why I
> wouldn't
> get involved with Voice Over. Tables are crucial for many things.
>
> Dean
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-
> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Mike Arrigo
> Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 6:33 AM
> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>
> Hi, I love surfing the web on the mac. The speed of loading pages
> blows any windows browser or screen reader away. For one thing,
> there's no waiting around while a page is loaded in to a buffer. One
> site that is good for testing your screen reader's speed is
> empowermentzone.com. On the mac, this page loads in under 2 seconds. I
> have done many different things while browsing on the mac such as
> buying things on ebay, paying bills, etc, works great. Yes, safari is
> the browser of choice at this time.
> On Jul 25, 2009, at 9:01 PM, albert griffith wrote:
>
>> Mike, you stated the Mac's browser had no tables mode. That flaw not
>> withstanding how would you describe your surfing experiences
>> generally?
>> Thanks, Do those using Voiceover navigate the internet with Safari?
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-
>> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Mike Arrigo
>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 7:28 PM
>> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>>
>> Hi, it's definitely ready for prime time, and is used by many blind
>> users, I'm using it as I type this message. As far as advantages and
>> disadvantages, the main advantage is that it is built in to the
>> ooperating system, as a blind person, you pay no more than anyone
>> else
>> for accessibility. There are of course differences with the mac
>> compared to windows, so there is a bit of a learning curve at first,
>> the only other possible disadvantage I could see for some people is
>> that on web pages, there is no table navigation mode. I don't see
>> this
>> as a big thing, since I never use this even in windows. The macintosh
>> has become my primary computer, and I use it far more than windows. I
>> would put the functionality of voice over against the windows screen
>> readers any day, you can do just as much I think.
>> On Jul 25, 2009, at 10:26 AM, tunecollector wrote:
>>
>>> This subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has
>>> anyone used
>>> it more intensively since then? Is it ready for prime time? What
>>> are its
>>> drawbacks.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> gui-talk mailing list
>>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>> for gui-talk:
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------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 14:30:11 -0500
From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <auto-000111803157 at mailfront2.g2host.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Gerald,
The secrecy and tight control that apple tends to keep over software
development is also what might make it possible
for them to enforce accessibility in a way that Microsoft can't. Some of
how this plays out depends upon the level of
commitment to accessibility that Apple has, and we'll need to see what
happens over time.
Best regards,
Steve Jacobson
On Sun, 26 Jul 2009 10:28:44 -0400, Gerald Levy wrote:
>But Voice Over will never acquire the same level of functionality as JAWS
>and Window Eyes until Apple changes its corporate culture from one of
>absolute secrecy and protectiveness to one that's more open and receptive
to
>outside influence like FS and GWM. Steve Jobs has never shown any
>inclination to allow outside software developers and Mac users to have
any
>direct influence on his company's products. This is why Apple has never
>achieved much success in business and government environments, and will
>always be a minor player in the PC market despite its panache and loyal
>following.
>Gerald
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 9:30 AM
>Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>> As always, Steve makes some good points. I want to bring out a couple
of
>> them.
>>
>> There has been much discussion about Mac versus Windows, and JAWS and
>> Window-Eyes versus System Access, and NVDA have also come out. I want
to
>> emphasize one thing, that has been hinted at. That is using a computer
at
>> work. The Mac is powerful and interesting, but as a Mac we could not
get
>> it to work with many of the applications we see regularly at employment
>> sites. We also can't get System Access, and NVDA to work with many of
>> these applications as well. It takes the powerful scripting
capabilities
>> of JAWS or Window-Eyes. They are more expensive, in part because of
all
>> the extra work needed to work with such a wide range of applications.
>> They are not perfect either, but they make it possible for many blind
>> persons to hold down jobs. VoiceOver may get there, but it just hasn't
>> been long enough for it to develop all the features needed.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> At 07:40 AM 7/26/2009, you wrote:
>>> In looking at the Braille Monitor article and VoiceOver and
other
>>> issues raised, there are a lot of things that
>>>need to be considered. The
>>>article, even with its acknowledged inaccuracies, has a perspective
that
>>>should be considered, and could result in more
>>>of us attaining a better understanding of both environments. When
>>>listening to the two
>>>hour pod cast on this article, I was surprised at the number of times
that
>>>the creators noted that a point made by the
>>>article
>>>was worth considering. I also noted occasions when the article said
>>>something was not accessible when it actually
>>>was, but far from simple. There were inaccuracies, though, and while
>>>there were useful aspects of the article's
>>>perspective, the perspective was not clearly explained. I want to lay
a
>>>few thoughts out here in hopes that it provokes
>>>some reasonable discussion if that is possible. If we are to truly
>>>understand and evaluate VoiceOver, we need
>>>information.
>>>
>>>In reading the Braille Monitor article, one should not think of it as a
>>>complete evaluation of VoiceOver, even though that
>>>is what it implies. Rather, one should think of it as the experiences
of
>>>a Windows user trying to learn the VoiceOver
>>>software using primarily the documentation that comes with the MAC. A
>>>Windows user who switches to the MAC should
>>>take from this article that they need to talk to other MAC users and be
>>>prepared for doing some things differently. Also,
>>>anyone looking at VoiceOver should be aware of the fact that there will
>>>soon be a new version of the MAC operating
>>>system and this could bring with it improvements to VoiceOver.
However,
>>>having said that, it is clear that VoiceOver is
>>>certainly ready for prime time, to answer the original questioner, but
one
>>>should take the time before switching to a MAC
>>>to be sure it will do the specific things one wants done. This is just
as
>>>true if one were to remain in Windows and switch
>>>screen readers. If you use a specific piece of software or you do
>>>something that most people may not do, you need to
>>>be certain you will be able to do it after you switch, and again, I
mean
>>>whether you switch to a MAC or whether you
>>>switch to a different screen reader..
>>>
>>>There are some legitimate concerns with accessibility built into the
>>>operating system as it now stands, but time will tell if it
>>>works out. There are also some very significant differences between
the
>>>MAC environment and the Windows
>>>environment that makes accessibility simpler on the MAC than in Windows
>>>that affects the solution in each environment.
>>>The fact is that one reason that accessibility is not built into the
>>>Windows operating system in the form of a full-featured
>>>screen reader is that many of us who have had experience in this field
>>>were not convinced that Microsoft would do as
>>>good a job, especially when prioritizing accessibility to other
products
>>>and access to their own products, as would the
>>>existing screen reader developers. I still firmly believe that having
a
>>>free Windows screen reader with one company
>>>behind it, in effect forcing the others out of business, would have
>>>resulted in my not being able to do some of what I've
>>>been able to do on my job. It is also my feeling, although somewhat
>>>unsubstantiated, that Microsoft may not have been
>>>anxious to take on such a task. According to what I heard a few years
ago
>>>from persons working for Apple, the feeling
>>>is that Apple is in a stronger position than Microsoft to encourage or
>>>even force people developing software for the MAC
>>>to build in to their software those things which VoiceOver needs to
>>>function. This is the case because there are fewer
>>>development platforms for writing MAC software and Apple has a tighter
>>>relationship with those who want software to run
>>>on the MAC. This means that more of what is needed for accessibility
can
>>>be put into the software or development tools
>>>leaving VoiceOver with a better interface to work with. In addition,
>>>there are a relatively limited number of computer
>>>configurations with which to deal. When you buy a MAC, you by an apple
>>>computer with apple's operating system. This
>>>is not meant to be critical, just to point out differences.
>>>
>>>On the Windows side, when there have been Microsoft computers, they
have
>>>never represented a significant market
>>>share. There are many variations of computer hardware running Windows.
>>>There are also many different development
>>>platforms. Some of us have felt that
>>>Microsoft should have enforced more accessibility than they have done
with
>>>developers, but they have made some
>>>efforts to do so. They do not seem to have as tight a hold on
developers
>>>as does Apple, though. As a result, there is
>>>significantly more for Windows screen readers to have to do. With the
>>>increased use of MSAA, this has
>>>changed some, though, and it is possible that in years to come the two
>>>environments may look more similar in terms of
>>>accessibility. However, you will definitely find that Window-Eyes and
JFW
>>>will do a fair job of working with some
>>>software that less expensive screen readers will not work with. I have
a
>>>couple of applications that work seamlessly
>>>with both Window-Eyes and JFW that did not work with System Access or
>>>NVDA. We have no way of knowing if there
>>>would be a way for another screen reader to work in ways that might be
>>>better than Voiceover because it isn't likely
>>>worth the effort to try to develop such a thing. If Apple can really
>>>control software development, this won't matter as
>>>much, though, and they are in a better position to do that given the
more
>>>manageable number of players and the fact
>>>that Apple generally controls the operating system and the hardware.
This
>>>isn't meant to minimize what apple has done,
>>>and they deserve credit. It simply means that having VoiceOver
included
>>>with the operating system has a better chance
>>>of working.
>>>
>>>So what are the concers with Apple's software? Well, when Apple was
very
>>>strong in schools, blind kids often had to
>>>use computers that used Windows to be able to do some of the same
things
>>>their classmates were doing with the MAC
>>>because the Mac was not accessible at the time. In some cases,
Microsoft
>>>has made significant gains in school
>>>districts. The school my kids attend is very much a Microsoft school
>>>system. One concern with the budgets that school
>>>districts have is that there will be pressure for blind kids to use
MAC's
>>>and VoiceOver instead of the same equipment
>>>used by other students because VoiceOver is included in the price and
>>>saves money. Whatever is done, we have to
>>>be certain that kids get the best access they can to educational
software.
>>>School districts won't necessarily know that
>>>Microsoft Word for the MAC doesn't work with VoiceOver for example. In
>>>fairness, this is due to a large degree to
>>>Microsoft not conforming to the accessibility guidelines apple
requires,
>>>but that doesn't change the results. I'd like some
>>>understanding of whether the educational software
>>>used by most kids that use MACS will work as well with VoiceOver as
>>>similar software does under Windows. Let's be
>>>clear, though, not all educational software works under Windows,
either,
>>>and I know that. It needs to be noted that we
>>>continue to push
>>>Microsoft for more, too, and we push the screen reader developers as
well.
>>>
>>>Finally, what about Windows bias? I frankly think this is a
distraction
>>>that is being used by some Mac advocates to not
>>>try to deal with criticisms. I know of nobody who seems to love
windows
>>>in the way that MAC people seem to love the
>>>MAC. This could be well deserved love, I don't know. I do recognize
that
>>>I am biased by features included in screen
>>>readers who do things based upon fifteen years of trying to give this
>>>market what it wants. Some of what we don't feel
>>>we see in VoiceOver has more to do with our existing screen readers
than
>>>with Windows. Much of what we have
>>>grown used to actually began with the more advanced DOS screen readers.
>>>Still, just because something has been
>>>done a certain way does not mean it is being done as well as it could
be.
>>>Nevertheless, I find it somewhat frustrating
>>>when I listen to some of the podcasts on this issue to see that
something
>>>VoiceOver does not do is portrayed as a
>>>feature rather than explaining why it might not be possible. On the
other
>>>hand, we have to be careful as Windows users
>>>not to jump to conclusions. Some of what Windows screen readers must
do
>>>to make software accessible through
>>>scripting involves manipulating the mouse and simulating mouse clicks
>>>while the MAC and handle some events by
>>>manipulating the software being run through operating system
mechanisms.
>>>Some solutions that we might see as less
>>>reliable under Windows may in fact be very reliable under the Mac
>>>operating system and VoiceOver. We need to realize
>>>that the TextEdit program is not a text editor as we know NotePad to
be,
>>>it is more of a word processor like WordPad
>>>and perhaps more. Comparing TextEdit to Microsoft Word as our article
did
>>>is not fair either, though.There are probably
>>>other conclusions to which we have jumped based upon our experience in
>>>Windows, and we need to be open to that.
>>>However, if VoiceOver does not do something that we have become
accustomed
>>>to, an explanation of why it doesn't
>>>seems more reasonable to me than to have our questions written off as a
>>>Windows bias as has been done on some of
>>>the Podcasts.
>>>
>>>Beyond the Braille Monitor article, we need some real discussion and
real
>>>information. How about some
>>>constructive discussion so that we can make both the Apple and the
>>>Microsoft environments work better for us while
>>>recognizing the efforts that have already been made.
>>>
>>>Best regards,
>>>
>>>Steve Jacobson
>>>
>>>On Sat, 25 Jul 2009 14:55:10 -0500, Kevin Fjelsted wrote:
>>>
>>> >The NFB article is located at
>>> > http://tinyurl.com/ndplsk
>>> >I recommend that you also read a review of that article at
>>> >http://tinyurl.com/l2samj
>>>
>>> >-Kevin
>>>
>>> >On 7/25/09, albert griffith <albertgriffith at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> >> Hi Kevin, I'm definitely purchasing a new machine in the next
couple
>>> >> of
>>> >> months and I'm seriously considering a Mac. I'd like to read the
NFB
>>> >> articles of which you speak with all their inaccuracies but I don't
>>> >> know
>>> >> where to locate them. Can you tell me where to go to read them? I
>>> >> don't
>>> >> need an exact URL just the general area will do. thanks
>>> >>
>>> >> -----Original Message-----
>>> >> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
[mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>> >> On
>>> >> Behalf Of Kevin Fjelsted
>>> >> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 1:50 PM
>>> >> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>>> >> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>>> >>
>>> >> VoiceOver is absolutely awesome. A superb resource for reading
details
>>> >> from a community perspective is http://www.lioncourt.com.
>>> >> I thhink that the exciting thing about VoiceOver is that the stars
are
>>> >> aligned for us. 1) Apple is making record profits and is applying
>>> >> resources in support of VoiceOver access across there entire
product
>>> >> line including mobile devices. The fact that the NFB technology
center
>>> >> chooses to publish inaccuracies and propaganda
>>> >> which is so misleading must mean that the existing companies like
>>> >> Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to rally resources
to
>>> >> quash VoiceOver usage. When ever we see established organizations
>>> >> becoming defensive it is time to really dig under the covers and ask
>>> >> the reasons why. In my opinion every blind person who relies on
>>> >> accessibility technology for computers and mobile devices needs to
>>> >> look at VoiceOver as well as the other technologies and proactively
>>> >> push the envelope so that we can create momentum for transparency.
My
>>> >> question is, why aren't all of the vendors emulating the approach
of
>>> >> VoiceOver, which is to have built in accessibility to the device out
>>> >> of the box without charging extra? WHen I can pay $190 for a cell
>>> >> phone that has built in accessibility I find that amazing compared
to
>>> >> spending money for a cell phone and then having to turn around and
buy
>>> >> a 3rd party access solution that in many cases only works half
baked.
>>> >> Not only do I get a cell phone for $190 but I get all the built in
>>> >> apps talking clock, calculator, maps, weather forecasting, text
>>> >> messaging, address book management, calendaring including syncing
with
>>> >> other calendars. For years blind people have taken the position that
>>> >> touch screens are the enemy and that we can't use them. Yet the
IPhone
>>> >> with VoiceOver is totally dependent on the touch screen. I do
>>> >> everything with the touch screen look at email, update my calendar,
>>> >> make phone calls,.... -Kevin Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 10:26 AM,
>>> >> tunecollector<tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> >>> This subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has
>>> >>> anyone
>>> >> used
>>> >>> it more intensively since then? Is it ready for prime time?
What
>>> >>> are
>>> >> its
>>> >>> drawbacks.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>> gui-talk mailing list
>>> >>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
for
>>> >> gui-talk:
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.
>>> >> com
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> --
>>> >> Kevin Fjelsted
>>> >> B Harris, Inc.
>>> >> http://www.bharrisinc.com
>>> >> kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
>>> >> http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
>>> >> Phone: 612.424.7333 EX. 301
>>> >> Direct: 612.424.7332
>>> >>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>gui-talk mailing list
>>>gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>gui-talk:
>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi
.com
>>>
>>>
>>>__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
>>>signature database 4278 (20090725) __________
>>>
>>>The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>>>
>>>http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> gui-talk:
>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/bwaylimited%40verizon.net
>_______________________________________________
>gui-talk mailing list
>gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
gui-talk:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40
visi.com
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 15:06:28 -0500
From: "Elizabeth Campbell" <batescampbell at charter.net>
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] iPhone Shopping
To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <D54EA5DF277A402D826FB9980F255F08 at OwnerPC>
Hi Chris!
I know what you mean about being a little impatient when you want
something
right away.
I am very tempted to purchase the Iphone, but just bought the Nokia e71x,
talks and wayfinder.
ah well, i may have to take the plunge anyway because I can take the sim
card out of my Nokia phone since I have AAT&T and put it in the iPhone,
from
what I understand.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kris" <khickerson at charter.net>
To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 9:24 AM
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] iPhone Shopping
> Hi Liz,
>
> Well, I would prefer to do that, but the closest one is about 30 miles
> away,
> and my schedule is such that I can't see any way I could get there for
the
> next couple of weeks.
>
> I have been reading about the phone and I'm certainly impressed with what
> I'm learning. I have a couple more questions and, once I get them
> answered
> satisfactorily, I'll just go ahead and make the call and buy it.
>
> I tend to be very decisive. Once I have the information I need, if I
> decide
> I want the item then I want it now. I'm a little low on patience,
> unfortunately, I'm afraid.
>
> Kris
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Elizabeth Campbell" <batescampbell at charter.net>
> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 6:27 AM
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] iPhone Shopping
>
>
> hi Chris,
>
> I wonder if it's best to start out by going to an Apple store if there is
> one near you to see a demo of the IPhone.
>
> I love the idea of accessibility right out of the box, but I want to
seee
> how something works before i buy it.
>
> Just some thoughts.
>
> Liz
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kris" <khickerson at charter.net>
> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 8:17 AM
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] iPhone Shopping
>
>
>> Is there some place online where I can go to hear the actual speech of
>> the
>> VoiceOver on the iPhone? I'd like to hear it before I purchase it.
>>
>> I'm just about ready to place the call to buy it. It almost sounds too
>> good
>> to be true.
>>
>> Kris
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Kevin Fjelsted" <kfjelsted at gmail.com>
>> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 6:08 PM
>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] iPhone Shopping
>>
>>
>> A great information source on the IPhone is the Google group located
>> at http://groups.google.com/group/viphone
>> Regarding pricing there is no discounting although in some
>> international markets unlocked IPhones are available. In the U.S. the
>> AT&T solutions are the only ones available. It is important to
>> purchase a new IPhone because the 3GS phone is the only one that will
>> support VoiceOver.
>> VoiceOver is built into every phone and activated by using Itunes to
>> set it up with either a Mac or Windows system.
>> I believe that there are over 150 accessible IPhone applications on
>> the accessibility list to date.
>> One may review this list at www.lioncourt.com.
>>
>>
>>
>> -Kevin
>>
>> On 7/25/09, Kris <khickerson at charter.net> wrote:
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> I'm not sure yet, but I certainly am considering purchasing an iPhone.
>>> I
>>> like what I've been reading about them this afternoon. I had never
>>> considered one before, but now I definitely am.
>>>
>>> Where can you get the best price on one? Is there much variation in
>>> price?
>>> I suspect not because they are so new.
>>>
>>> Any info will be appreciated.
>>>
>>> Kris
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> gui-talk mailing list
>>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> gui-talk:
>>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> gui-talk:
>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/khickerson%40charter.net
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> gui-talk:
>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/batescampbell%40charter.net
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> gui-talk mailing list
> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> gui-talk:
>
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>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> gui-talk mailing list
> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> gui-talk:
>
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>
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 16:08:42 -0400
From: "Lydia Grier" <lydiagrier at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] FaceBook and MySpace
To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <BB8AA4DB727E45F9802F271C43757D08 at doris>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=response
Hey Jin this is Lydia can you give me instructions on how to navigate
facebook. I can get on the website but after that I don't have a clue?
Another question I am an Avon Rep as well and I am wondering do you put
your
orders in by using the computer and if so how? I put mine by phone. Thanks
in advance.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jennifer Aberdeen" <freespirit328 at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 12:04 AM
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] FaceBook and MySpace
> Hi Chris,
>
> There's really no difference between Myspace and facebook. Both sites
> afford a person the same advantages. Facebook is a bit more blind
> friendly, especially if you use the mobile website. Myspace is just not
> blind friendly at all. As far as what they do; They are social
networking
> websites which allows people to have one place to keep in touch with all
> their friends (or the ones who are members). There are also online games
> and applications. I use it to update my friends on what I'm up to and I
> also use it to network and spread the word about my AVON business.
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> Jen
>
> Shop my AVON online store
> http://jaberdeen.avonrepresentative.com
>
> Get healthy!
> http://jaberdeen.qhealthbeauty.com
>
> Contact me:
>
> Jennifer Aberdeen
> PO Box 1184
> Woonsocket, RI 02895
> 401-762-3258 (home)
> 401-644-5607 (cell)
> freespirit328 at gmail.com
> SKYPE: J.Aberdeen
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kris" <khickerson at charter.net>
> To: "gui-talk" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 8:24 PM
> Subject: [gui-talk] FaceBook and MySpace
>
>
>> Ok, everyone, I admit I'm uninformed when it comes to these two
>> websites. I just never took an interest in them, but now there is so
>> much
>> talk that I'm beginning to think I need to learn a little more.
>>
>> Last year everyone was talking about MySpace. Now this year it's
>> FaceBook.
>> What exactly is the difference between the two and why would you want
or
>> need to use one over the other? Is there any reason you would need to
>> use
>> both? I'm not even sure that I want to consider Twitter,but I'm
starting
>> to
>> get a little curious about FaceBook. However, not knowing, I wonder if
I
>> need to investigate MySpace, too. This is getting rediculous. How do
>> people have time for all this stuff? I'm retired and I still don't
>> always
>> get everything done that I need to on the computer. It seems to me
that
>> these sites would just clutter up and complicate one's life!
>>
>> Thanks for any info.
>>
>> Kris
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> gui-talk:
>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/freespirit328%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> gui-talk mailing list
> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> gui-talk:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/lydiagrier%40comcast.net
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database:
> 270.13.29/2261 - Release Date: 7/25/2009 5:58 AM
>
>
>
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 15:08:52 -0500
From: "Elizabeth Campbell" <batescampbell at charter.net>
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] copyin and pasting links
To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <89187ADAB4484502980D91C7707B0D91 at OwnerPC>
Hi Dean,
Thanks, I will try that.
Liz
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dean Martineau" <dean at topdotenterprises.com>
To: "'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 9:57 AM
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] copyin and pasting links
> Assuming you're using Internet Explorer, find the link, if using JAWS
> right-click, if Window-Eyes use the applications key. Then hit T. If
> using
> IE8, you have to hit enter, earlier versions you do not. T is the
> accelerator key for Copy Shortcut. It will copy the Url to the
clipboard.
> Now paste wherever you want.
>
> Dean
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Elizabeth Campbell
> Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 6:39 AM
> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List; Multiple recipients of NFBnet NFBcs
> Mailing List
> Subject: [gui-talk] copyin and pasting links
>
> Hello all,
>
> Sorry to ask a very dumb question, but how do I paste a link to an
e-mail
> message so that it will open when the recipient clicks onit? Thanks in
> advance for your help.
>
> Liz
> _______________________________________________
> gui-talk mailing list
> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> gui-talk:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/dean%40topdotenter
> prises.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> gui-talk mailing list
> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> gui-talk:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/batescampbell%40charter.net
>
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 13:53:03 -0700
From: "Kris" <khickerson at charter.net>
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] iPhone Shopping
To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <D3FBA2C2D1814C6FB1C3FDDEDCD19EDF at presariosr1320>
Hey Liz,
That's great to know because I have AT&T also, so I could do that and I
wouldn't have to change my number. That would be cool!
Kris
----- Original Message -----
From: "Elizabeth Campbell" <batescampbell at charter.net>
To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 1:06 PM
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] iPhone Shopping
Hi Chris!
I know what you mean about being a little impatient when you want
something
right away.
I am very tempted to purchase the Iphone, but just bought the Nokia e71x,
talks and wayfinder.
ah well, i may have to take the plunge anyway because I can take the sim
card out of my Nokia phone since I have AAT&T and put it in the iPhone,
from
what I understand.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kris" <khickerson at charter.net>
To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 9:24 AM
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] iPhone Shopping
> Hi Liz,
>
> Well, I would prefer to do that, but the closest one is about 30 miles
> away,
> and my schedule is such that I can't see any way I could get there for
the
> next couple of weeks.
>
> I have been reading about the phone and I'm certainly impressed with what
> I'm learning. I have a couple more questions and, once I get them
> answered
> satisfactorily, I'll just go ahead and make the call and buy it.
>
> I tend to be very decisive. Once I have the information I need, if I
> decide
> I want the item then I want it now. I'm a little low on patience,
> unfortunately, I'm afraid.
>
> Kris
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Elizabeth Campbell" <batescampbell at charter.net>
> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 6:27 AM
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] iPhone Shopping
>
>
> hi Chris,
>
> I wonder if it's best to start out by going to an Apple store if there is
> one near you to see a demo of the IPhone.
>
> I love the idea of accessibility right out of the box, but I want to
seee
> how something works before i buy it.
>
> Just some thoughts.
>
> Liz
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kris" <khickerson at charter.net>
> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 8:17 AM
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] iPhone Shopping
>
>
>> Is there some place online where I can go to hear the actual speech of
>> the
>> VoiceOver on the iPhone? I'd like to hear it before I purchase it.
>>
>> I'm just about ready to place the call to buy it. It almost sounds too
>> good
>> to be true.
>>
>> Kris
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Kevin Fjelsted" <kfjelsted at gmail.com>
>> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 6:08 PM
>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] iPhone Shopping
>>
>>
>> A great information source on the IPhone is the Google group located
>> at http://groups.google.com/group/viphone
>> Regarding pricing there is no discounting although in some
>> international markets unlocked IPhones are available. In the U.S. the
>> AT&T solutions are the only ones available. It is important to
>> purchase a new IPhone because the 3GS phone is the only one that will
>> support VoiceOver.
>> VoiceOver is built into every phone and activated by using Itunes to
>> set it up with either a Mac or Windows system.
>> I believe that there are over 150 accessible IPhone applications on
>> the accessibility list to date.
>> One may review this list at www.lioncourt.com.
>>
>>
>>
>> -Kevin
>>
>> On 7/25/09, Kris <khickerson at charter.net> wrote:
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> I'm not sure yet, but I certainly am considering purchasing an iPhone.
>>> I
>>> like what I've been reading about them this afternoon. I had never
>>> considered one before, but now I definitely am.
>>>
>>> Where can you get the best price on one? Is there much variation in
>>> price?
>>> I suspect not because they are so new.
>>>
>>> Any info will be appreciated.
>>>
>>> Kris
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
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>>>
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>>>
>>
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>
>
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------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 16:57:49 -0400
From: "albert griffith" <albertgriffith at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] FaceBook and MySpace
To: "'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <008d01ca0e33$bca03f60$35e0be20$@net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Lydia, if you go to www.afb.org and look under Access World for the March
edition you'll find an article explaining how to use Facebook.
-----Original Message-----
From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Lydia Grier
Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 4:09 PM
To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] FaceBook and MySpace
Hey Jin this is Lydia can you give me instructions on how to navigate
facebook. I can get on the website but after that I don't have a clue?
Another question I am an Avon Rep as well and I am wondering do you put
your
orders in by using the computer and if so how? I put mine by phone. Thanks
in advance.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jennifer Aberdeen" <freespirit328 at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 12:04 AM
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] FaceBook and MySpace
> Hi Chris,
>
> There's really no difference between Myspace and facebook. Both sites
> afford a person the same advantages. Facebook is a bit more blind
> friendly, especially if you use the mobile website. Myspace is just not
> blind friendly at all. As far as what they do; They are social
networking
> websites which allows people to have one place to keep in touch with all
> their friends (or the ones who are members). There are also online games
> and applications. I use it to update my friends on what I'm up to and I
> also use it to network and spread the word about my AVON business.
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> Jen
>
> Shop my AVON online store
> http://jaberdeen.avonrepresentative.com
>
> Get healthy!
> http://jaberdeen.qhealthbeauty.com
>
> Contact me:
>
> Jennifer Aberdeen
> PO Box 1184
> Woonsocket, RI 02895
> 401-762-3258 (home)
> 401-644-5607 (cell)
> freespirit328 at gmail.com
> SKYPE: J.Aberdeen
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kris" <khickerson at charter.net>
> To: "gui-talk" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 8:24 PM
> Subject: [gui-talk] FaceBook and MySpace
>
>
>> Ok, everyone, I admit I'm uninformed when it comes to these two
>> websites. I just never took an interest in them, but now there is so
>> much
>> talk that I'm beginning to think I need to learn a little more.
>>
>> Last year everyone was talking about MySpace. Now this year it's
>> FaceBook.
>> What exactly is the difference between the two and why would you want
or
>> need to use one over the other? Is there any reason you would need to
>> use
>> both? I'm not even sure that I want to consider Twitter,but I'm
starting
>> to
>> get a little curious about FaceBook. However, not knowing, I wonder if
I
>> need to investigate MySpace, too. This is getting rediculous. How do
>> people have time for all this stuff? I'm retired and I still don't
>> always
>> get everything done that I need to on the computer. It seems to me
that
>> these sites would just clutter up and complicate one's life!
>>
>> Thanks for any info.
>>
>> Kris
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> gui-talk:
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>
>
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> No virus found in this incoming message.
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------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 17:08:17 -0400
From: "albert griffith" <albertgriffith at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
To: "'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <008e01ca0e35$3294f980$97beec80$@net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Has anyone listened to any of the, battle of the screen readers podcasts?
If so, were they helpful as tools for comparing them?
-----Original Message-----
From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Mike Arrigo
Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 1:34 PM
To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
Well, when it comes to functionality, just because something has more
features, doesnot automatically make it better. I think it would be
safe to say that most people never use every single feature of their
windows screen readers, even half of the features might be pushing it.
And, if you don't use certain features, then having them doesn't
really make much difference. Of course, the mac operating system does
things differently than windows, so you need things to work
differently with the screen reader, the real question is, does voice
over do what is sets out to do, and that is to allow a blind person to
use and be productive with the mac operating system. The answer to
that I would say is a definite yes.
On Jul 26, 2009, at 9:28 AM, Gerald Levy wrote:
>
> But Voice Over will never acquire the same level of functionality as
> JAWS and Window Eyes until Apple changes its corporate culture from
> one of absolute secrecy and protectiveness to one that's more open
> and receptive to outside influence like FS and GWM. Steve Jobs has
> never shown any inclination to allow outside software developers and
> Mac users to have any direct influence on his company's products.
> This is why Apple has never achieved much success in business and
> government environments, and will always be a minor player in the PC
> market despite its panache and loyal following.
>
> Gerald
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 9:30 AM
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>
>
>> As always, Steve makes some good points. I want to bring out a
>> couple of them.
>>
>> There has been much discussion about Mac versus Windows, and JAWS
>> and Window-Eyes versus System Access, and NVDA have also come out.
>> I want to emphasize one thing, that has been hinted at. That is
>> using a computer at work. The Mac is powerful and interesting, but
>> as a Mac we could not get it to work with many of the applications
>> we see regularly at employment sites. We also can't get System
>> Access, and NVDA to work with many of these applications as well.
>> It takes the powerful scripting capabilities of JAWS or Window-
>> Eyes. They are more expensive, in part because of all the extra
>> work needed to work with such a wide range of applications. They
>> are not perfect either, but they make it possible for many blind
>> persons to hold down jobs. VoiceOver may get there, but it just
>> hasn't been long enough for it to develop all the features needed.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> At 07:40 AM 7/26/2009, you wrote:
>>> In looking at the Braille Monitor article and VoiceOver and
>>> other issues raised, there are a lot of things that
>>> need to be considered. The
>>> article, even with its acknowledged inaccuracies, has a
>>> perspective that should be considered, and could result in more
>>> of us attaining a better understanding of both environments. When
>>> listening to the two
>>> hour pod cast on this article, I was surprised at the number of
>>> times that the creators noted that a point made by the
>>> article
>>> was worth considering. I also noted occasions when the article
>>> said something was not accessible when it actually
>>> was, but far from simple. There were inaccuracies, though, and
>>> while there were useful aspects of the article's
>>> perspective, the perspective was not clearly explained. I want to
>>> lay a few thoughts out here in hopes that it provokes
>>> some reasonable discussion if that is possible. If we are to
>>> truly understand and evaluate VoiceOver, we need
>>> information.
>>>
>>> In reading the Braille Monitor article, one should not think of it
>>> as a complete evaluation of VoiceOver, even though that
>>> is what it implies. Rather, one should think of it as the
>>> experiences of a Windows user trying to learn the VoiceOver
>>> software using primarily the documentation that comes with the
>>> MAC. A Windows user who switches to the MAC should
>>> take from this article that they need to talk to other MAC users
>>> and be prepared for doing some things differently. Also,
>>> anyone looking at VoiceOver should be aware of the fact that there
>>> will soon be a new version of the MAC operating
>>> system and this could bring with it improvements to VoiceOver.
>>> However, having said that, it is clear that VoiceOver is
>>> certainly ready for prime time, to answer the original questioner,
>>> but one should take the time before switching to a MAC
>>> to be sure it will do the specific things one wants done. This is
>>> just as true if one were to remain in Windows and switch
>>> screen readers. If you use a specific piece of software or you do
>>> something that most people may not do, you need to
>>> be certain you will be able to do it after you switch, and again,
>>> I mean whether you switch to a MAC or whether you
>>> switch to a different screen reader..
>>>
>>> There are some legitimate concerns with accessibility built into
>>> the operating system as it now stands, but time will tell if it
>>> works out. There are also some very significant differences
>>> between the MAC environment and the Windows
>>> environment that makes accessibility simpler on the MAC than in
>>> Windows that affects the solution in each environment.
>>> The fact is that one reason that accessibility is not built into
>>> the Windows operating system in the form of a full-featured
>>> screen reader is that many of us who have had experience in this
>>> field were not convinced that Microsoft would do as
>>> good a job, especially when prioritizing accessibility to other
>>> products and access to their own products, as would the
>>> existing screen reader developers. I still firmly believe that
>>> having a free Windows screen reader with one company
>>> behind it, in effect forcing the others out of business, would
>>> have resulted in my not being able to do some of what I've
>>> been able to do on my job. It is also my feeling, although
>>> somewhat unsubstantiated, that Microsoft may not have been
>>> anxious to take on such a task. According to what I heard a few
>>> years ago from persons working for Apple, the feeling
>>> is that Apple is in a stronger position than Microsoft to
>>> encourage or even force people developing software for the MAC
>>> to build in to their software those things which VoiceOver needs
>>> to function. This is the case because there are fewer
>>> development platforms for writing MAC software and Apple has a
>>> tighter relationship with those who want software to run
>>> on the MAC. This means that more of what is needed for
>>> accessibility can be put into the software or development tools
>>> leaving VoiceOver with a better interface to work with. In
>>> addition, there are a relatively limited number of computer
>>> configurations with which to deal. When you buy a MAC, you by an
>>> apple computer with apple's operating system. This
>>> is not meant to be critical, just to point out differences.
>>>
>>> On the Windows side, when there have been Microsoft computers,
>>> they have never represented a significant market
>>> share. There are many variations of computer hardware running
>>> Windows. There are also many different development
>>> platforms. Some of us have felt that
>>> Microsoft should have enforced more accessibility than they have
>>> done with developers, but they have made some
>>> efforts to do so. They do not seem to have as tight a hold on
>>> developers as does Apple, though. As a result, there is
>>> significantly more for Windows screen readers to have to do. With
>>> the increased use of MSAA, this has
>>> changed some, though, and it is possible that in years to come the
>>> two environments may look more similar in terms of
>>> accessibility. However, you will definitely find that Window-Eyes
>>> and JFW will do a fair job of working with some
>>> software that less expensive screen readers will not work with. I
>>> have a couple of applications that work seamlessly
>>> with both Window-Eyes and JFW that did not work with System Access
>>> or NVDA. We have no way of knowing if there
>>> would be a way for another screen reader to work in ways that
>>> might be better than Voiceover because it isn't likely
>>> worth the effort to try to develop such a thing. If Apple can
>>> really control software development, this won't matter as
>>> much, though, and they are in a better position to do that given
>>> the more manageable number of players and the fact
>>> that Apple generally controls the operating system and the
>>> hardware. This isn't meant to minimize what apple has done,
>>> and they deserve credit. It simply means that having VoiceOver
>>> included with the operating system has a better chance
>>> of working.
>>>
>>> So what are the concers with Apple's software? Well, when Apple
>>> was very strong in schools, blind kids often had to
>>> use computers that used Windows to be able to do some of the same
>>> things their classmates were doing with the MAC
>>> because the Mac was not accessible at the time. In some cases,
>>> Microsoft has made significant gains in school
>>> districts. The school my kids attend is very much a Microsoft
>>> school system. One concern with the budgets that school
>>> districts have is that there will be pressure for blind kids to
>>> use MAC's and VoiceOver instead of the same equipment
>>> used by other students because VoiceOver is included in the price
>>> and saves money. Whatever is done, we have to
>>> be certain that kids get the best access they can to educational
>>> software. School districts won't necessarily know that
>>> Microsoft Word for the MAC doesn't work with VoiceOver for
>>> example. In fairness, this is due to a large degree to
>>> Microsoft not conforming to the accessibility guidelines apple
>>> requires, but that doesn't change the results. I'd like some
>>> understanding of whether the educational software
>>> used by most kids that use MACS will work as well with VoiceOver
>>> as similar software does under Windows. Let's be
>>> clear, though, not all educational software works under Windows,
>>> either, and I know that. It needs to be noted that we
>>> continue to push
>>> Microsoft for more, too, and we push the screen reader developers
>>> as well.
>>>
>>> Finally, what about Windows bias? I frankly think this is a
>>> distraction that is being used by some Mac advocates to not
>>> try to deal with criticisms. I know of nobody who seems to love
>>> windows in the way that MAC people seem to love the
>>> MAC. This could be well deserved love, I don't know. I do
>>> recognize that I am biased by features included in screen
>>> readers who do things based upon fifteen years of trying to give
>>> this market what it wants. Some of what we don't feel
>>> we see in VoiceOver has more to do with our existing screen
>>> readers than with Windows. Much of what we have
>>> grown used to actually began with the more advanced DOS screen
>>> readers. Still, just because something has been
>>> done a certain way does not mean it is being done as well as it
>>> could be. Nevertheless, I find it somewhat frustrating
>>> when I listen to some of the podcasts on this issue to see that
>>> something VoiceOver does not do is portrayed as a
>>> feature rather than explaining why it might not be possible. On
>>> the other hand, we have to be careful as Windows users
>>> not to jump to conclusions. Some of what Windows screen readers
>>> must do to make software accessible through
>>> scripting involves manipulating the mouse and simulating mouse
>>> clicks while the MAC and handle some events by
>>> manipulating the software being run through operating system
>>> mechanisms. Some solutions that we might see as less
>>> reliable under Windows may in fact be very reliable under the Mac
>>> operating system and VoiceOver. We need to realize
>>> that the TextEdit program is not a text editor as we know NotePad
>>> to be, it is more of a word processor like WordPad
>>> and perhaps more. Comparing TextEdit to Microsoft Word as our
>>> article did is not fair either, though.There are probably
>>> other conclusions to which we have jumped based upon our
>>> experience in Windows, and we need to be open to that.
>>> However, if VoiceOver does not do something that we have become
>>> accustomed to, an explanation of why it doesn't
>>> seems more reasonable to me than to have our questions written off
>>> as a Windows bias as has been done on some of
>>> the Podcasts.
>>>
>>> Beyond the Braille Monitor article, we need some real discussion
>>> and real information. How about some
>>> constructive discussion so that we can make both the Apple and the
>>> Microsoft environments work better for us while
>>> recognizing the efforts that have already been made.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>
>>> On Sat, 25 Jul 2009 14:55:10 -0500, Kevin Fjelsted wrote:
>>>
>>> >The NFB article is located at
>>> > http://tinyurl.com/ndplsk
>>> >I recommend that you also read a review of that article at
>>> >http://tinyurl.com/l2samj
>>>
>>> >-Kevin
>>>
>>> >On 7/25/09, albert griffith <albertgriffith at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> >> Hi Kevin, I'm definitely purchasing a new machine in the next
>>> couple >> of
>>> >> months and I'm seriously considering a Mac. I'd like to read
>>> the NFB
>>> >> articles of which you speak with all their inaccuracies but I
>>> don't >> know
>>> >> where to locate them. Can you tell me where to go to read
>>> them? I >> don't
>>> >> need an exact URL just the general area will do. thanks
>>> >>
>>> >> -----Original Message-----
>>> >> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
[mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>> ] >> On
>>> >> Behalf Of Kevin Fjelsted
>>> >> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 1:50 PM
>>> >> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>>> >> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>>> >>
>>> >> VoiceOver is absolutely awesome. A superb resource for reading
>>> details
>>> >> from a community perspective is http://www.lioncourt.com.
>>> >> I thhink that the exciting thing about VoiceOver is that the
>>> stars are
>>> >> aligned for us. 1) Apple is making record profits and is applying
>>> >> resources in support of VoiceOver access across there entire
>>> product
>>> >> line including mobile devices. The fact that the NFB technology
>>> center
>>> >> chooses to publish inaccuracies and propaganda
>>> >> which is so misleading must mean that the existing companies like
>>> >> Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to rally
>>> resources to
>>> >> quash VoiceOver usage. When ever we see established organizations
>>> >> becoming defensive it is time to really dig under the covers
>>> and ask
>>> >> the reasons why. In my opinion every blind person who relies on
>>> >> accessibility technology for computers and mobile devices needs
>>> to
>>> >> look at VoiceOver as well as the other technologies and
>>> proactively
>>> >> push the envelope so that we can create momentum for
>>> transparency. My
>>> >> question is, why aren't all of the vendors emulating the
>>> approach of
>>> >> VoiceOver, which is to have built in accessibility to the
>>> device out
>>> >> of the box without charging extra? WHen I can pay $190 for a cell
>>> >> phone that has built in accessibility I find that amazing
>>> compared to
>>> >> spending money for a cell phone and then having to turn around
>>> and buy
>>> >> a 3rd party access solution that in many cases only works half
>>> baked.
>>> >> Not only do I get a cell phone for $190 but I get all the built
>>> in
>>> >> apps talking clock, calculator, maps, weather forecasting, text
>>> >> messaging, address book management, calendaring including
>>> syncing with
>>> >> other calendars. For years blind people have taken the position
>>> that
>>> >> touch screens are the enemy and that we can't use them. Yet the
>>> IPhone
>>> >> with VoiceOver is totally dependent on the touch screen. I do
>>> >> everything with the touch screen look at email, update my
>>> calendar,
>>> >> make phone calls,.... -Kevin Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 10:26 AM,
>>> >> tunecollector<tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> >>> This subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but
>>> has >>> anyone
>>> >> used
>>> >>> it more intensively since then? Is it ready for prime
>>> time? What >>> are
>>> >> its
>>> >>> drawbacks.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>> gui-talk mailing list
>>> >>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>> info for
>>> >> gui-talk:
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail
>>> .
>>> >> com
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> --
>>> >> Kevin Fjelsted
>>> >> B Harris, Inc.
>>> >> http://www.bharrisinc.com
>>> >> kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
>>> >> http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
>>> >> Phone: 612.424.7333 EX. 301
>>> >> Direct: 612.424.7332
>>> >>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
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------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 17:16:06 -0400
From: "albert griffith" <albertgriffith at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
To: "'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <009201ca0e36$4a128130$de378390$@net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I tend to believe the reasons Apple hasn't done as well in corporate
environments has more to do with more than their level of insularity.
There
aren't as many people trained to use them and for a long time their office
productivity suite wasn't as robust as Microsoft's. If they're willing to
spend the money the culture could work to their advantage because there'd
be
fewer glitches since they'd have control over the development of each
program.
-----Original Message-----
From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Steve Jacobson
Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 3:30 PM
To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
Gerald,
The secrecy and tight control that apple tends to keep over software
development is also what might make it possible
for them to enforce accessibility in a way that Microsoft can't. Some of
how this plays out depends upon the level of
commitment to accessibility that Apple has, and we'll need to see what
happens over time.
Best regards,
Steve Jacobson
On Sun, 26 Jul 2009 10:28:44 -0400, Gerald Levy wrote:
>But Voice Over will never acquire the same level of functionality as JAWS
>and Window Eyes until Apple changes its corporate culture from one of
>absolute secrecy and protectiveness to one that's more open and receptive
to
>outside influence like FS and GWM. Steve Jobs has never shown any
>inclination to allow outside software developers and Mac users to have
any
>direct influence on his company's products. This is why Apple has never
>achieved much success in business and government environments, and will
>always be a minor player in the PC market despite its panache and loyal
>following.
>Gerald
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 9:30 AM
>Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>> As always, Steve makes some good points. I want to bring out a couple
of
>> them.
>>
>> There has been much discussion about Mac versus Windows, and JAWS and
>> Window-Eyes versus System Access, and NVDA have also come out. I want
to
>> emphasize one thing, that has been hinted at. That is using a computer
at
>> work. The Mac is powerful and interesting, but as a Mac we could not
get
>> it to work with many of the applications we see regularly at employment
>> sites. We also can't get System Access, and NVDA to work with many of
>> these applications as well. It takes the powerful scripting
capabilities
>> of JAWS or Window-Eyes. They are more expensive, in part because of
all
>> the extra work needed to work with such a wide range of applications.
>> They are not perfect either, but they make it possible for many blind
>> persons to hold down jobs. VoiceOver may get there, but it just hasn't
>> been long enough for it to develop all the features needed.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> At 07:40 AM 7/26/2009, you wrote:
>>> In looking at the Braille Monitor article and VoiceOver and
other
>>> issues raised, there are a lot of things that
>>>need to be considered. The
>>>article, even with its acknowledged inaccuracies, has a perspective
that
>>>should be considered, and could result in more
>>>of us attaining a better understanding of both environments. When
>>>listening to the two
>>>hour pod cast on this article, I was surprised at the number of times
that
>>>the creators noted that a point made by the
>>>article
>>>was worth considering. I also noted occasions when the article said
>>>something was not accessible when it actually
>>>was, but far from simple. There were inaccuracies, though, and while
>>>there were useful aspects of the article's
>>>perspective, the perspective was not clearly explained. I want to lay
a
>>>few thoughts out here in hopes that it provokes
>>>some reasonable discussion if that is possible. If we are to truly
>>>understand and evaluate VoiceOver, we need
>>>information.
>>>
>>>In reading the Braille Monitor article, one should not think of it as a
>>>complete evaluation of VoiceOver, even though that
>>>is what it implies. Rather, one should think of it as the experiences
of
>>>a Windows user trying to learn the VoiceOver
>>>software using primarily the documentation that comes with the MAC. A
>>>Windows user who switches to the MAC should
>>>take from this article that they need to talk to other MAC users and be
>>>prepared for doing some things differently. Also,
>>>anyone looking at VoiceOver should be aware of the fact that there will
>>>soon be a new version of the MAC operating
>>>system and this could bring with it improvements to VoiceOver.
However,
>>>having said that, it is clear that VoiceOver is
>>>certainly ready for prime time, to answer the original questioner, but
one
>>>should take the time before switching to a MAC
>>>to be sure it will do the specific things one wants done. This is just
as
>>>true if one were to remain in Windows and switch
>>>screen readers. If you use a specific piece of software or you do
>>>something that most people may not do, you need to
>>>be certain you will be able to do it after you switch, and again, I
mean
>>>whether you switch to a MAC or whether you
>>>switch to a different screen reader..
>>>
>>>There are some legitimate concerns with accessibility built into the
>>>operating system as it now stands, but time will tell if it
>>>works out. There are also some very significant differences between
the
>>>MAC environment and the Windows
>>>environment that makes accessibility simpler on the MAC than in Windows
>>>that affects the solution in each environment.
>>>The fact is that one reason that accessibility is not built into the
>>>Windows operating system in the form of a full-featured
>>>screen reader is that many of us who have had experience in this field
>>>were not convinced that Microsoft would do as
>>>good a job, especially when prioritizing accessibility to other
products
>>>and access to their own products, as would the
>>>existing screen reader developers. I still firmly believe that having
a
>>>free Windows screen reader with one company
>>>behind it, in effect forcing the others out of business, would have
>>>resulted in my not being able to do some of what I've
>>>been able to do on my job. It is also my feeling, although somewhat
>>>unsubstantiated, that Microsoft may not have been
>>>anxious to take on such a task. According to what I heard a few years
ago
>>>from persons working for Apple, the feeling
>>>is that Apple is in a stronger position than Microsoft to encourage or
>>>even force people developing software for the MAC
>>>to build in to their software those things which VoiceOver needs to
>>>function. This is the case because there are fewer
>>>development platforms for writing MAC software and Apple has a tighter
>>>relationship with those who want software to run
>>>on the MAC. This means that more of what is needed for accessibility
can
>>>be put into the software or development tools
>>>leaving VoiceOver with a better interface to work with. In addition,
>>>there are a relatively limited number of computer
>>>configurations with which to deal. When you buy a MAC, you by an apple
>>>computer with apple's operating system. This
>>>is not meant to be critical, just to point out differences.
>>>
>>>On the Windows side, when there have been Microsoft computers, they
have
>>>never represented a significant market
>>>share. There are many variations of computer hardware running Windows.
>>>There are also many different development
>>>platforms. Some of us have felt that
>>>Microsoft should have enforced more accessibility than they have done
with
>>>developers, but they have made some
>>>efforts to do so. They do not seem to have as tight a hold on
developers
>>>as does Apple, though. As a result, there is
>>>significantly more for Windows screen readers to have to do. With the
>>>increased use of MSAA, this has
>>>changed some, though, and it is possible that in years to come the two
>>>environments may look more similar in terms of
>>>accessibility. However, you will definitely find that Window-Eyes and
JFW
>>>will do a fair job of working with some
>>>software that less expensive screen readers will not work with. I have
a
>>>couple of applications that work seamlessly
>>>with both Window-Eyes and JFW that did not work with System Access or
>>>NVDA. We have no way of knowing if there
>>>would be a way for another screen reader to work in ways that might be
>>>better than Voiceover because it isn't likely
>>>worth the effort to try to develop such a thing. If Apple can really
>>>control software development, this won't matter as
>>>much, though, and they are in a better position to do that given the
more
>>>manageable number of players and the fact
>>>that Apple generally controls the operating system and the hardware.
This
>>>isn't meant to minimize what apple has done,
>>>and they deserve credit. It simply means that having VoiceOver
included
>>>with the operating system has a better chance
>>>of working.
>>>
>>>So what are the concers with Apple's software? Well, when Apple was
very
>>>strong in schools, blind kids often had to
>>>use computers that used Windows to be able to do some of the same
things
>>>their classmates were doing with the MAC
>>>because the Mac was not accessible at the time. In some cases,
Microsoft
>>>has made significant gains in school
>>>districts. The school my kids attend is very much a Microsoft school
>>>system. One concern with the budgets that school
>>>districts have is that there will be pressure for blind kids to use
MAC's
>>>and VoiceOver instead of the same equipment
>>>used by other students because VoiceOver is included in the price and
>>>saves money. Whatever is done, we have to
>>>be certain that kids get the best access they can to educational
software.
>>>School districts won't necessarily know that
>>>Microsoft Word for the MAC doesn't work with VoiceOver for example. In
>>>fairness, this is due to a large degree to
>>>Microsoft not conforming to the accessibility guidelines apple
requires,
>>>but that doesn't change the results. I'd like some
>>>understanding of whether the educational software
>>>used by most kids that use MACS will work as well with VoiceOver as
>>>similar software does under Windows. Let's be
>>>clear, though, not all educational software works under Windows,
either,
>>>and I know that. It needs to be noted that we
>>>continue to push
>>>Microsoft for more, too, and we push the screen reader developers as
well.
>>>
>>>Finally, what about Windows bias? I frankly think this is a
distraction
>>>that is being used by some Mac advocates to not
>>>try to deal with criticisms. I know of nobody who seems to love
windows
>>>in the way that MAC people seem to love the
>>>MAC. This could be well deserved love, I don't know. I do recognize
that
>>>I am biased by features included in screen
>>>readers who do things based upon fifteen years of trying to give this
>>>market what it wants. Some of what we don't feel
>>>we see in VoiceOver has more to do with our existing screen readers
than
>>>with Windows. Much of what we have
>>>grown used to actually began with the more advanced DOS screen readers.
>>>Still, just because something has been
>>>done a certain way does not mean it is being done as well as it could
be.
>>>Nevertheless, I find it somewhat frustrating
>>>when I listen to some of the podcasts on this issue to see that
something
>>>VoiceOver does not do is portrayed as a
>>>feature rather than explaining why it might not be possible. On the
other
>>>hand, we have to be careful as Windows users
>>>not to jump to conclusions. Some of what Windows screen readers must
do
>>>to make software accessible through
>>>scripting involves manipulating the mouse and simulating mouse clicks
>>>while the MAC and handle some events by
>>>manipulating the software being run through operating system
mechanisms.
>>>Some solutions that we might see as less
>>>reliable under Windows may in fact be very reliable under the Mac
>>>operating system and VoiceOver. We need to realize
>>>that the TextEdit program is not a text editor as we know NotePad to
be,
>>>it is more of a word processor like WordPad
>>>and perhaps more. Comparing TextEdit to Microsoft Word as our article
did
>>>is not fair either, though.There are probably
>>>other conclusions to which we have jumped based upon our experience in
>>>Windows, and we need to be open to that.
>>>However, if VoiceOver does not do something that we have become
accustomed
>>>to, an explanation of why it doesn't
>>>seems more reasonable to me than to have our questions written off as a
>>>Windows bias as has been done on some of
>>>the Podcasts.
>>>
>>>Beyond the Braille Monitor article, we need some real discussion and
real
>>>information. How about some
>>>constructive discussion so that we can make both the Apple and the
>>>Microsoft environments work better for us while
>>>recognizing the efforts that have already been made.
>>>
>>>Best regards,
>>>
>>>Steve Jacobson
>>>
>>>On Sat, 25 Jul 2009 14:55:10 -0500, Kevin Fjelsted wrote:
>>>
>>> >The NFB article is located at
>>> > http://tinyurl.com/ndplsk
>>> >I recommend that you also read a review of that article at
>>> >http://tinyurl.com/l2samj
>>>
>>> >-Kevin
>>>
>>> >On 7/25/09, albert griffith <albertgriffith at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> >> Hi Kevin, I'm definitely purchasing a new machine in the next
couple
>>> >> of
>>> >> months and I'm seriously considering a Mac. I'd like to read the
NFB
>>> >> articles of which you speak with all their inaccuracies but I don't
>>> >> know
>>> >> where to locate them. Can you tell me where to go to read them? I
>>> >> don't
>>> >> need an exact URL just the general area will do. thanks
>>> >>
>>> >> -----Original Message-----
>>> >> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
[mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>> >> On
>>> >> Behalf Of Kevin Fjelsted
>>> >> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 1:50 PM
>>> >> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>>> >> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>>> >>
>>> >> VoiceOver is absolutely awesome. A superb resource for reading
details
>>> >> from a community perspective is http://www.lioncourt.com.
>>> >> I thhink that the exciting thing about VoiceOver is that the stars
are
>>> >> aligned for us. 1) Apple is making record profits and is applying
>>> >> resources in support of VoiceOver access across there entire
product
>>> >> line including mobile devices. The fact that the NFB technology
center
>>> >> chooses to publish inaccuracies and propaganda
>>> >> which is so misleading must mean that the existing companies like
>>> >> Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to rally resources
to
>>> >> quash VoiceOver usage. When ever we see established organizations
>>> >> becoming defensive it is time to really dig under the covers and ask
>>> >> the reasons why. In my opinion every blind person who relies on
>>> >> accessibility technology for computers and mobile devices needs to
>>> >> look at VoiceOver as well as the other technologies and proactively
>>> >> push the envelope so that we can create momentum for transparency.
My
>>> >> question is, why aren't all of the vendors emulating the approach
of
>>> >> VoiceOver, which is to have built in accessibility to the device out
>>> >> of the box without charging extra? WHen I can pay $190 for a cell
>>> >> phone that has built in accessibility I find that amazing compared
to
>>> >> spending money for a cell phone and then having to turn around and
buy
>>> >> a 3rd party access solution that in many cases only works half
baked.
>>> >> Not only do I get a cell phone for $190 but I get all the built in
>>> >> apps talking clock, calculator, maps, weather forecasting, text
>>> >> messaging, address book management, calendaring including syncing
with
>>> >> other calendars. For years blind people have taken the position that
>>> >> touch screens are the enemy and that we can't use them. Yet the
IPhone
>>> >> with VoiceOver is totally dependent on the touch screen. I do
>>> >> everything with the touch screen look at email, update my calendar,
>>> >> make phone calls,.... -Kevin Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 10:26 AM,
>>> >> tunecollector<tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> >>> This subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has
>>> >>> anyone
>>> >> used
>>> >>> it more intensively since then? Is it ready for prime time?
What
>>> >>> are
>>> >> its
>>> >>> drawbacks.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>> gui-talk mailing list
>>> >>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
for
>>> >> gui-talk:
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.
>>> >> com
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> --
>>> >> Kevin Fjelsted
>>> >> B Harris, Inc.
>>> >> http://www.bharrisinc.com
>>> >> kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
>>> >> http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
>>> >> Phone: 612.424.7333 EX. 301
>>> >> Direct: 612.424.7332
>>> >>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>gui-talk mailing list
>>>gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>gui-talk:
>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi
.com
>>>
>>>
>>>__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
>>>signature database 4278 (20090725) __________
>>>
>>>The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>>>
>>>http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 14:48:58 -0700
From: "tunecollector" <tunecollector at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] [Bulk] Re: Voiceover
To: "'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <23E9EDBE7BD14DFABFFE38CACF612C61 at computer>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Apple hasn't done as well because they are control freaks. Instead of
licensing their OS like Microsoft does, Apple wants it all. At one time,
if
you remember, you could get an Apple clone. Apple's decision to stop the
cloning damn near put them out of business. But I will give them this:
they
do come up with the innovations. The only thing that Microsoft developed
on
its own and did not acquire was the joystick.
-----Original Message-----
From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of albert griffith
Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 2:16 PM
To: 'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'
Subject: [Bulk] Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
I tend to believe the reasons Apple hasn't done as well in corporate
environments has more to do with more than their level of insularity.
There
aren't as many people trained to use them and for a long time their office
productivity suite wasn't as robust as Microsoft's. If they're willing to
spend the money the culture could work to their advantage because there'd
be
fewer glitches since they'd have control over the development of each
program.
-----Original Message-----
From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Steve Jacobson
Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 3:30 PM
To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
Gerald,
The secrecy and tight control that apple tends to keep over software
development is also what might make it possible
for them to enforce accessibility in a way that Microsoft can't. Some of
how this plays out depends upon the level of
commitment to accessibility that Apple has, and we'll need to see what
happens over time.
Best regards,
Steve Jacobson
On Sun, 26 Jul 2009 10:28:44 -0400, Gerald Levy wrote:
>But Voice Over will never acquire the same level of functionality as JAWS
>and Window Eyes until Apple changes its corporate culture from one of
>absolute secrecy and protectiveness to one that's more open and receptive
to
>outside influence like FS and GWM. Steve Jobs has never shown any
>inclination to allow outside software developers and Mac users to have
any
>direct influence on his company's products. This is why Apple has never
>achieved much success in business and government environments, and will
>always be a minor player in the PC market despite its panache and loyal
>following.
>Gerald
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 9:30 AM
>Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>> As always, Steve makes some good points. I want to bring out a couple
of
>> them.
>>
>> There has been much discussion about Mac versus Windows, and JAWS and
>> Window-Eyes versus System Access, and NVDA have also come out. I want
to
>> emphasize one thing, that has been hinted at. That is using a computer
at
>> work. The Mac is powerful and interesting, but as a Mac we could not
get
>> it to work with many of the applications we see regularly at employment
>> sites. We also can't get System Access, and NVDA to work with many of
>> these applications as well. It takes the powerful scripting
capabilities
>> of JAWS or Window-Eyes. They are more expensive, in part because of
all
>> the extra work needed to work with such a wide range of applications.
>> They are not perfect either, but they make it possible for many blind
>> persons to hold down jobs. VoiceOver may get there, but it just hasn't
>> been long enough for it to develop all the features needed.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> At 07:40 AM 7/26/2009, you wrote:
>>> In looking at the Braille Monitor article and VoiceOver and
other
>>> issues raised, there are a lot of things that
>>>need to be considered. The
>>>article, even with its acknowledged inaccuracies, has a perspective
that
>>>should be considered, and could result in more
>>>of us attaining a better understanding of both environments. When
>>>listening to the two
>>>hour pod cast on this article, I was surprised at the number of times
that
>>>the creators noted that a point made by the
>>>article
>>>was worth considering. I also noted occasions when the article said
>>>something was not accessible when it actually
>>>was, but far from simple. There were inaccuracies, though, and while
>>>there were useful aspects of the article's
>>>perspective, the perspective was not clearly explained. I want to lay
a
>>>few thoughts out here in hopes that it provokes
>>>some reasonable discussion if that is possible. If we are to truly
>>>understand and evaluate VoiceOver, we need
>>>information.
>>>
>>>In reading the Braille Monitor article, one should not think of it as a
>>>complete evaluation of VoiceOver, even though that
>>>is what it implies. Rather, one should think of it as the experiences
of
>>>a Windows user trying to learn the VoiceOver
>>>software using primarily the documentation that comes with the MAC. A
>>>Windows user who switches to the MAC should
>>>take from this article that they need to talk to other MAC users and be
>>>prepared for doing some things differently. Also,
>>>anyone looking at VoiceOver should be aware of the fact that there will
>>>soon be a new version of the MAC operating
>>>system and this could bring with it improvements to VoiceOver.
However,
>>>having said that, it is clear that VoiceOver is
>>>certainly ready for prime time, to answer the original questioner, but
one
>>>should take the time before switching to a MAC
>>>to be sure it will do the specific things one wants done. This is just
as
>>>true if one were to remain in Windows and switch
>>>screen readers. If you use a specific piece of software or you do
>>>something that most people may not do, you need to
>>>be certain you will be able to do it after you switch, and again, I
mean
>>>whether you switch to a MAC or whether you
>>>switch to a different screen reader..
>>>
>>>There are some legitimate concerns with accessibility built into the
>>>operating system as it now stands, but time will tell if it
>>>works out. There are also some very significant differences between
the
>>>MAC environment and the Windows
>>>environment that makes accessibility simpler on the MAC than in Windows
>>>that affects the solution in each environment.
>>>The fact is that one reason that accessibility is not built into the
>>>Windows operating system in the form of a full-featured
>>>screen reader is that many of us who have had experience in this field
>>>were not convinced that Microsoft would do as
>>>good a job, especially when prioritizing accessibility to other
products
>>>and access to their own products, as would the
>>>existing screen reader developers. I still firmly believe that having
a
>>>free Windows screen reader with one company
>>>behind it, in effect forcing the others out of business, would have
>>>resulted in my not being able to do some of what I've
>>>been able to do on my job. It is also my feeling, although somewhat
>>>unsubstantiated, that Microsoft may not have been
>>>anxious to take on such a task. According to what I heard a few years
ago
>>>from persons working for Apple, the feeling
>>>is that Apple is in a stronger position than Microsoft to encourage or
>>>even force people developing software for the MAC
>>>to build in to their software those things which VoiceOver needs to
>>>function. This is the case because there are fewer
>>>development platforms for writing MAC software and Apple has a tighter
>>>relationship with those who want software to run
>>>on the MAC. This means that more of what is needed for accessibility
can
>>>be put into the software or development tools
>>>leaving VoiceOver with a better interface to work with. In addition,
>>>there are a relatively limited number of computer
>>>configurations with which to deal. When you buy a MAC, you by an apple
>>>computer with apple's operating system. This
>>>is not meant to be critical, just to point out differences.
>>>
>>>On the Windows side, when there have been Microsoft computers, they
have
>>>never represented a significant market
>>>share. There are many variations of computer hardware running Windows.
>>>There are also many different development
>>>platforms. Some of us have felt that
>>>Microsoft should have enforced more accessibility than they have done
with
>>>developers, but they have made some
>>>efforts to do so. They do not seem to have as tight a hold on
developers
>>>as does Apple, though. As a result, there is
>>>significantly more for Windows screen readers to have to do. With the
>>>increased use of MSAA, this has
>>>changed some, though, and it is possible that in years to come the two
>>>environments may look more similar in terms of
>>>accessibility. However, you will definitely find that Window-Eyes and
JFW
>>>will do a fair job of working with some
>>>software that less expensive screen readers will not work with. I have
a
>>>couple of applications that work seamlessly
>>>with both Window-Eyes and JFW that did not work with System Access or
>>>NVDA. We have no way of knowing if there
>>>would be a way for another screen reader to work in ways that might be
>>>better than Voiceover because it isn't likely
>>>worth the effort to try to develop such a thing. If Apple can really
>>>control software development, this won't matter as
>>>much, though, and they are in a better position to do that given the
more
>>>manageable number of players and the fact
>>>that Apple generally controls the operating system and the hardware.
This
>>>isn't meant to minimize what apple has done,
>>>and they deserve credit. It simply means that having VoiceOver
included
>>>with the operating system has a better chance
>>>of working.
>>>
>>>So what are the concers with Apple's software? Well, when Apple was
very
>>>strong in schools, blind kids often had to
>>>use computers that used Windows to be able to do some of the same
things
>>>their classmates were doing with the MAC
>>>because the Mac was not accessible at the time. In some cases,
Microsoft
>>>has made significant gains in school
>>>districts. The school my kids attend is very much a Microsoft school
>>>system. One concern with the budgets that school
>>>districts have is that there will be pressure for blind kids to use
MAC's
>>>and VoiceOver instead of the same equipment
>>>used by other students because VoiceOver is included in the price and
>>>saves money. Whatever is done, we have to
>>>be certain that kids get the best access they can to educational
software.
>>>School districts won't necessarily know that
>>>Microsoft Word for the MAC doesn't work with VoiceOver for example. In
>>>fairness, this is due to a large degree to
>>>Microsoft not conforming to the accessibility guidelines apple
requires,
>>>but that doesn't change the results. I'd like some
>>>understanding of whether the educational software
>>>used by most kids that use MACS will work as well with VoiceOver as
>>>similar software does under Windows. Let's be
>>>clear, though, not all educational software works under Windows,
either,
>>>and I know that. It needs to be noted that we
>>>continue to push
>>>Microsoft for more, too, and we push the screen reader developers as
well.
>>>
>>>Finally, what about Windows bias? I frankly think this is a
distraction
>>>that is being used by some Mac advocates to not
>>>try to deal with criticisms. I know of nobody who seems to love
windows
>>>in the way that MAC people seem to love the
>>>MAC. This could be well deserved love, I don't know. I do recognize
that
>>>I am biased by features included in screen
>>>readers who do things based upon fifteen years of trying to give this
>>>market what it wants. Some of what we don't feel
>>>we see in VoiceOver has more to do with our existing screen readers
than
>>>with Windows. Much of what we have
>>>grown used to actually began with the more advanced DOS screen readers.
>>>Still, just because something has been
>>>done a certain way does not mean it is being done as well as it could
be.
>>>Nevertheless, I find it somewhat frustrating
>>>when I listen to some of the podcasts on this issue to see that
something
>>>VoiceOver does not do is portrayed as a
>>>feature rather than explaining why it might not be possible. On the
other
>>>hand, we have to be careful as Windows users
>>>not to jump to conclusions. Some of what Windows screen readers must
do
>>>to make software accessible through
>>>scripting involves manipulating the mouse and simulating mouse clicks
>>>while the MAC and handle some events by
>>>manipulating the software being run through operating system
mechanisms.
>>>Some solutions that we might see as less
>>>reliable under Windows may in fact be very reliable under the Mac
>>>operating system and VoiceOver. We need to realize
>>>that the TextEdit program is not a text editor as we know NotePad to
be,
>>>it is more of a word processor like WordPad
>>>and perhaps more. Comparing TextEdit to Microsoft Word as our article
did
>>>is not fair either, though.There are probably
>>>other conclusions to which we have jumped based upon our experience in
>>>Windows, and we need to be open to that.
>>>However, if VoiceOver does not do something that we have become
accustomed
>>>to, an explanation of why it doesn't
>>>seems more reasonable to me than to have our questions written off as a
>>>Windows bias as has been done on some of
>>>the Podcasts.
>>>
>>>Beyond the Braille Monitor article, we need some real discussion and
real
>>>information. How about some
>>>constructive discussion so that we can make both the Apple and the
>>>Microsoft environments work better for us while
>>>recognizing the efforts that have already been made.
>>>
>>>Best regards,
>>>
>>>Steve Jacobson
>>>
>>>On Sat, 25 Jul 2009 14:55:10 -0500, Kevin Fjelsted wrote:
>>>
>>> >The NFB article is located at
>>> > http://tinyurl.com/ndplsk
>>> >I recommend that you also read a review of that article at
>>> >http://tinyurl.com/l2samj
>>>
>>> >-Kevin
>>>
>>> >On 7/25/09, albert griffith <albertgriffith at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> >> Hi Kevin, I'm definitely purchasing a new machine in the next
couple
>>> >> of
>>> >> months and I'm seriously considering a Mac. I'd like to read the
NFB
>>> >> articles of which you speak with all their inaccuracies but I don't
>>> >> know
>>> >> where to locate them. Can you tell me where to go to read them? I
>>> >> don't
>>> >> need an exact URL just the general area will do. thanks
>>> >>
>>> >> -----Original Message-----
>>> >> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
[mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>> >> On
>>> >> Behalf Of Kevin Fjelsted
>>> >> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 1:50 PM
>>> >> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>>> >> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>>> >>
>>> >> VoiceOver is absolutely awesome. A superb resource for reading
details
>>> >> from a community perspective is http://www.lioncourt.com.
>>> >> I thhink that the exciting thing about VoiceOver is that the stars
are
>>> >> aligned for us. 1) Apple is making record profits and is applying
>>> >> resources in support of VoiceOver access across there entire
product
>>> >> line including mobile devices. The fact that the NFB technology
center
>>> >> chooses to publish inaccuracies and propaganda
>>> >> which is so misleading must mean that the existing companies like
>>> >> Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to rally resources
to
>>> >> quash VoiceOver usage. When ever we see established organizations
>>> >> becoming defensive it is time to really dig under the covers and ask
>>> >> the reasons why. In my opinion every blind person who relies on
>>> >> accessibility technology for computers and mobile devices needs to
>>> >> look at VoiceOver as well as the other technologies and proactively
>>> >> push the envelope so that we can create momentum for transparency.
My
>>> >> question is, why aren't all of the vendors emulating the approach
of
>>> >> VoiceOver, which is to have built in accessibility to the device out
>>> >> of the box without charging extra? WHen I can pay $190 for a cell
>>> >> phone that has built in accessibility I find that amazing compared
to
>>> >> spending money for a cell phone and then having to turn around and
buy
>>> >> a 3rd party access solution that in many cases only works half
baked.
>>> >> Not only do I get a cell phone for $190 but I get all the built in
>>> >> apps talking clock, calculator, maps, weather forecasting, text
>>> >> messaging, address book management, calendaring including syncing
with
>>> >> other calendars. For years blind people have taken the position that
>>> >> touch screens are the enemy and that we can't use them. Yet the
IPhone
>>> >> with VoiceOver is totally dependent on the touch screen. I do
>>> >> everything with the touch screen look at email, update my calendar,
>>> >> make phone calls,.... -Kevin Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 10:26 AM,
>>> >> tunecollector<tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> >>> This subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has
>>> >>> anyone
>>> >> used
>>> >>> it more intensively since then? Is it ready for prime time?
What
>>> >>> are
>>> >> its
>>> >>> drawbacks.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>> gui-talk mailing list
>>> >>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
for
>>> >> gui-talk:
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.
>>> >> com
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> --
>>> >> Kevin Fjelsted
>>> >> B Harris, Inc.
>>> >> http://www.bharrisinc.com
>>> >> kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
>>> >> http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
>>> >> Phone: 612.424.7333 EX. 301
>>> >> Direct: 612.424.7332
>>> >>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>gui-talk mailing list
>>>gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>gui-talk:
>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi
..com
>>>
>>>
>>>__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
>>>signature database 4278 (20090725) __________
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>>>The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
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>>>http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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database 4279 (20090726) __________
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------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 17:58:35 -0400
From: "Lloyd Rasmussen" <lras at sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] FaceBook and MySpace
To: "'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <45B8F36511804524B8FCAA4FA6819FAE at lras05>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
My complaint with the AFB March article is that even for Window-Eyes users,
it made some procedures more difficult than they needed to be. Most of the
things she described can be done in browse mode without having to move the
mouse pointer anywhere. The article is worth reading because you learn
some
terminology, but you will need to find out some of the pitfalls with your
own combination of screen reader and browser. I still recommend Firefox
over Internet Explorer for Facebook, but you will be going in and out of
forms mode, redrawing the browse buffer, etc. quite often.
Lloyd Rasmussen, Kensington, Maryland
Home: http://lras.home.sprynet.com
Work: http://www.loc.gov/nls
www.facebook.com/lloyd.rasmussen
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of albert griffith
> Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 4:58 PM
> To: 'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] FaceBook and MySpace
>
> Lydia, if you go to www.afb.org and look under Access World for the March
> edition you'll find an article explaining how to use Facebook.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Lydia Grier
> Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 4:09 PM
> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] FaceBook and MySpace
>
> Hey Jin this is Lydia can you give me instructions on how to navigate
> facebook. I can get on the website but after that I don't have a clue?
> Another question I am an Avon Rep as well and I am wondering do you put
> your
>
> orders in by using the computer and if so how? I put mine by phone.
Thanks
> in advance.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jennifer Aberdeen" <freespirit328 at gmail.com>
> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 12:04 AM
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] FaceBook and MySpace
>
>
> > Hi Chris,
> >
> > There's really no difference between Myspace and facebook. Both sites
> > afford a person the same advantages. Facebook is a bit more blind
> > friendly, especially if you use the mobile website. Myspace is just not
> > blind friendly at all. As far as what they do; They are social
> networking
> > websites which allows people to have one place to keep in touch with
all
> > their friends (or the ones who are members). There are also online
games
> > and applications. I use it to update my friends on what I'm up to and I
> > also use it to network and spread the word about my AVON business.
> >
> > Hope this helps,
> >
> > Jen
> >
> > Shop my AVON online store
> > http://jaberdeen.avonrepresentative.com
> >
> > Get healthy!
> > http://jaberdeen.qhealthbeauty.com
> >
> > Contact me:
> >
> > Jennifer Aberdeen
> > PO Box 1184
> > Woonsocket, RI 02895
> > 401-762-3258 (home)
> > 401-644-5607 (cell)
> > freespirit328 at gmail.com
> > SKYPE: J.Aberdeen
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Kris" <khickerson at charter.net>
> > To: "gui-talk" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> > Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 8:24 PM
> > Subject: [gui-talk] FaceBook and MySpace
> >
> >
> >> Ok, everyone, I admit I'm uninformed when it comes to these two
> >> websites. I just never took an interest in them, but now there is so
> >> much
> >> talk that I'm beginning to think I need to learn a little more.
> >>
> >> Last year everyone was talking about MySpace. Now this year it's
> >> FaceBook.
> >> What exactly is the difference between the two and why would you want
> or
> >> need to use one over the other? Is there any reason you would need
to
> >> use
> >> both? I'm not even sure that I want to consider Twitter,but I'm
> starting
>
> >> to
> >> get a little curious about FaceBook. However, not knowing, I wonder
if
> I
> >> need to investigate MySpace, too. This is getting rediculous. How
do
> >> people have time for all this stuff? I'm retired and I still don't
> >> always
> >> get everything done that I need to on the computer. It seems to me
> that
> >> these sites would just clutter up and complicate one's life!
> >>
> >> Thanks for any info.
> >>
> >> Kris
> >>
> >>
------------------------------
Message: 13
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 17:06:40 -0500
From: Mike Arrigo <n0oxy at charter.net>
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <6EB78E73-E2AF-4EDA-B4A5-EE0F5ABC4CB4 at charter.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
Hi. Though voice over does not load the page in to a buffer per say,
you are able to navigate the page in the correct order. Voice over has
2 ways of presenting a web page, which one you use is a matter of
preference, neither one is right or wrong. The first mode is dom mode,
dom stands for document object model. This works in much the same way
as the windows screen readers do, you navigate item by item, an item
might be a paragraph, a link, a control etc. This is the way I prefer
to use it. The other mode is called group mode. Group mode groups
items together such as all of the links at the top of a page, or all
of the links in an image map. If you want to review and possibly
select one of the links, you interact with that element which shows
all of the links separately. Hopefully my description is
understandable, I get the idea that it sounds more confusing than it
actually is. Suffice it to say that you can navigate pages and be
productive on the mac using the web. The one exception to this is
flash. Currently, flash is not accessible at all, and Adobe says they
have no interest in making it accessible on the mac. However, there
are 2 sides to that. Unfortunately in many cases, flash is not labeled
correctly, so windows screen readers will simply say button, button,
button, etc. And if that's the case, I would rather it not say
anything since that really doesn't offer much.
On Jul 26, 2009, at 2:07 PM, albert griffith wrote:
> Hi Mike, you said in an earlier post that the Mac gives you more
> flexibility
> to hear what you want. When browsing, is everything in screen
> layout or
> does Voiceover align material to the left margin like jaws and W.E.
> To
> present material in a more friendly manner was the reasoning behind
> pages
> being first loaded in to a buffer. If Overvoice doesn't use a
> buffer do you
> know how it prioritizes how you see data?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-
> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Mike Arrigo
> Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 9:33 AM
> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>
> Hi, I love surfing the web on the mac. The speed of loading pages
> blows any windows browser or screen reader away. For one thing,
> there's no waiting around while a page is loaded in to a buffer. One
> site that is good for testing your screen reader's speed is
> empowermentzone.com. On the mac, this page loads in under 2 seconds. I
> have done many different things while browsing on the mac such as
> buying things on ebay, paying bills, etc, works great. Yes, safari is
> the browser of choice at this time.
> On Jul 25, 2009, at 9:01 PM, albert griffith wrote:
>
>> Mike, you stated the Mac's browser had no tables mode. That flaw not
>> withstanding how would you describe your surfing experiences
>> generally?
>> Thanks, Do those using Voiceover navigate the internet with Safari?
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-
>> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Mike Arrigo
>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 7:28 PM
>> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>>
>> Hi, it's definitely ready for prime time, and is used by many blind
>> users, I'm using it as I type this message. As far as advantages and
>> disadvantages, the main advantage is that it is built in to the
>> ooperating system, as a blind person, you pay no more than anyone
>> else
>> for accessibility. There are of course differences with the mac
>> compared to windows, so there is a bit of a learning curve at first,
>> the only other possible disadvantage I could see for some people is
>> that on web pages, there is no table navigation mode. I don't see
>> this
>> as a big thing, since I never use this even in windows. The macintosh
>> has become my primary computer, and I use it far more than windows. I
>> would put the functionality of voice over against the windows screen
>> readers any day, you can do just as much I think.
>> On Jul 25, 2009, at 10:26 AM, tunecollector wrote:
>>
>>> This subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has
>>> anyone used
>>> it more intensively since then? Is it ready for prime time? What
>>> are its
>>> drawbacks.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> gui-talk mailing list
>>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>> for gui-talk:
>>>
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/n0oxy%4
0charter.ne
>> t
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> gui-talk:
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/albertgriffith%40s
>> bcglobal.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> for gui-talk:
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/n0oxy%40charter.ne
> t
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
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------------------------------
Message: 14
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 17:14:48 -0500
From: Mike Arrigo <n0oxy at charter.net>
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <5FA58D25-2A66-48F1-B097-056D7CC48CD4 at charter.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
Whether voice over is up to speed depends on what you want to do. If
you're interest is email, browsing the web, music, word processing,
audio editing, chatting on the net, then voice over is more than up to
handling that. There are a couple other advantages that have not been
mentioned yet in this discussion, so I will mention them here. You can
update or reinstall your operating system completely without sighted
help, the install is available with speech and braille if you have a
braille display. For example, when the new operating system comes out
in a couple of months, we will be able to install it totally without
sighted help, and I plan on doing a pod cast on this. Another area I
wanted to mention is backup and restore. In windows, you can usually
back up your system, but so far I have not found a way to restore an
entire system with speech. It would usually need to be scripted. On
the mac, if you have an external hard drive, you can perform a full
system backup, then actually boot from that external drive if you need
to. You could then restore the contents of the external drive back to
your internal, and have speech and or braille through the entire
process. One other thing I will mention, and this is more about the
mac in general than with voiceover, the design of the operating system
in my view is far superior to windows. There is no registry to clean,
and no need to defragment the hard drive.
On Jul 26, 2009, at 2:10 PM, albert griffith wrote:
> That the screen reader is built in to the operating system is a major
> incentive for me to make the switch, however, I'd just as soon stick
> with my
> screen reader through another computer cycle if voiceover isn't
> quite up to
> speed.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-
> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Mike Arrigo
> Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 9:27 AM
> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>
> Another great advantage of having the screen reader built in is, it
> allows developers to test for themselves the accessibility of their
> applications.
> On Jul 25, 2009, at 7:56 PM, Ray Foret jr wrote:
>
>> You need only walk in to a store selling the Mac and press command f
>> 5 to
>> turn on Voice Over and play with it for yourself.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> The Constantly BAREFOOTED Ray
>>
>> "Old friend, what are you looking for? After those many years
>> abroad you
>> come With images you tended Under foreign skies Far away from your
>> own land"
>> George Seferis
>>
>> Phone or Fax::
>> +1 (985) 360-3614
>> Cell:
>> +1 (985) 791-2938
>> e-mail:
>> rforetjratcomcastdotnet
>> Skype Name:
>> barefootedray
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "albert griffith" <albertgriffith at sbcglobal.net>
>> To: "'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 6:19 PM
>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>>
>>
>> Hi Ray, I've yet to read the NFB article but I plan to soon. We'll
>> benefit
>> from all the access points it should illuminate. Do you know if
>> Apple is
>> offering their screen reader as a demo anywhere?
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-
>> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Ray Foret jr
>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 3:24 PM
>> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>>
>> Granted, Voice over is well worth serious consideration; but, Kevin,
>> there's
>>
>> no need to get unpleasant about it. The NFB's perspective was
>> written from
>> a Windows users point of view because that's what most blind
>> computer users
>> are familiar with. Like it or not, this is so. I always hear Voice
>> Over
>> users say "You can't compare the Mac to Windows.". Fair enough.
>> So, in
>> that case, why not truly help us Windows users get to know Voice
>> Over better
>>
>> instead of just criticizing us just because we do what it is human
>> nature to
>>
>> do; compare one thing to another. I grant you that the Mac is worth
>> serious
>>
>> consideration; and, If I wasn't still paying for this lap top, I
>> would
>> indeed very seriously look at Voice Over. Let me give you an
>> example of how
>>
>> Voice Over users can be more helpful. In the NFB article, it is
>> stated that
>>
>> when you press the space bar to check or uncheck items on a web
>> page, Voice
>> Over does not tell you whether an item is checked or unchecked. I
>> believe
>> this is true; however, there is another factor. The article then
>> goes on to
>>
>> incorrectly state that there is no way without fumbling around, to
>> determine
>>
>> whether an item is checked or not. As I understand it, there is a
>> special
>> Voice over key command which is used to check or uncheck items on
>> web pages.
>>
>> When this key stroke is used, Voice over will tell you at once
>> whether an
>> item is checked or unchecked. Now, it's quite clear to me that the
>> fellow
>> reviewing Voice Over for the NFB did not know this fact. but, I ask
>> you,
>> why did not some voice over users help him with the trouble he was
>> having?
>> Why did the NFB not seek help from Voice Over users? Well, I think
>> I can
>> answer that one. He wanted to deal with Voice Over from the stand
>> point of
>> a strictly out of the box experience. IN other words, his logic was
>> this.
>> "Let me see what I can learn about Voice Over strictly from the help
>> and
>> what ever documentation I can access on my own.". Fair enough; but,
>> let's
>> think a bit. How many Windows users do you know who rely just on
>> the built
>> in help and what documentation they can read on their own? Well, I
>> sure
>> don't know too many myself. Most Windows users go to one another
>> for help
>> and we help each other. Why, therefore, did the NFB fellow not seek
>> help in
>>
>> the same way from Mac users? A fair question I think. Frankly, I am
>> perfectly willing to take a look at Voice over, not so much from the
>> NFB
>> stand point; nor from a Voice Over defense point of view. My look
>> will be
>> based a bit on both and I will be wanting to get very objective
>> information.
>>
>> I don't think I can count on either the NFB or Voice Over devotees
>> to be
>> truly objective; and, therefore, the best strategy I can think of is
>> to take
>>
>> the best of both and make your own decision.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> The Constantly BAREFOOTED Ray
>>
>> "Old friend, what are you looking for? After those many years
>> abroad you
>> come With images you tended Under foreign skies Far away from your
>> own land"
>> George Seferis
>>
>> Phone or Fax::
>> +1 (985) 360-3614
>> Cell:
>> +1 (985) 791-2938
>> e-mail:
>> rforetjratcomcastdotnet
>> Skype Name:
>> barefootedray
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Kevin Fjelsted" <kfjelsted at gmail.com>
>> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 12:49 PM
>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>>
>>
>> VoiceOver is absolutely awesome. A superb resource for reading
>> details
>> from a community perspective is http://www.lioncourt.com.
>> I thhink that the exciting thing about VoiceOver is that the stars
>> are
>> aligned for us. 1) Apple is making record profits and is applying
>> resources in support of VoiceOver access across there entire product
>> line including mobile devices. The fact that the NFB technology
>> center
>> chooses to publish inaccuracies and propaganda
>> which is so misleading must mean that the existing companies like
>> Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to rally resources
>> to
>> quash VoiceOver usage. When ever we see established organizations
>> becoming defensive it is time to really dig under the covers and ask
>> the reasons why. In my opinion every blind person who relies on
>> accessibility technology for computers and mobile devices needs to
>> look at VoiceOver as well as the other technologies and proactively
>> push the envelope so that we can create momentum for transparency. My
>> question is, why aren't all of the vendors emulating the approach
>> of
>> VoiceOver, which is to have built in accessibility to the device out
>> of the box without charging extra? WHen I can pay $190 for a cell
>> phone that has built in accessibility I find that amazing compared to
>> spending money for a cell phone and then having to turn around and
>> buy
>> a 3rd party access solution that in many cases only works half baked.
>> Not only do I get a cell phone for $190 but I get all the built in
>> apps talking clock, calculator, maps, weather forecasting, text
>> messaging, address book management, calendaring including syncing
>> with
>> other calendars. For years blind people have taken the position that
>> touch screens are the enemy and that we can't use them. Yet the
>> IPhone
>> with VoiceOver is totally dependent on the touch screen. I do
>> everything with the touch screen look at email, update my calendar,
>> make phone calls,.... -Kevin Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 10:26 AM,
>> tunecollector<tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> This subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has
>>> anyone
>>> used
>>> it more intensively since then? Is it ready for prime time? What
>>> are its
>>> drawbacks.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> gui-talk mailing list
>>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>> for
>>> gui-talk:
>>>
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail
>> .
>> com
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Kevin Fjelsted
>> B Harris, Inc.
>> http://www.bharrisinc.com
>> kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
>> Phone: 612.424.7333 EX. 301
>> Direct: 612.424.7332
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> gui-talk:
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/rforetjr%40comcast
>> .net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> gui-talk:
>>
>
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>> bcglobal.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> gui-talk:
>>
>
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>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
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------------------------------
Message: 15
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 17:17:30 -0500
From: Mike Arrigo <n0oxy at charter.net>
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] [Bulk] Re: Voiceover
To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <8D4299EF-E4C7-47DA-A89B-B4A3E878F814 at charter.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
Hi, I just meant that it doesn't read everything in a random order,
the page is presented the way you would expect.
On Jul 26, 2009, at 2:15 PM, tunecollector wrote:
> What do you mean that it is presented in the right order? What's
> the right
> order?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-
> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Mike Arrigo
> Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 12:08 PM
> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
> Subject: [Bulk] Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>
> Well, the information is presented in the right order, it's not
> jumbled the way it would be if you read the screen with the mouse
> cursor if that makes any sense.
> On Jul 26, 2009, at 1:55 PM, albert griffith wrote:
>
>> Having the latitude to hear just what you want can be a real curse.
>> Consider the difference between simple document presentation and
>> screen
>> layout when surfing the internet. Using the screen layout shows you
>> everything on the screen just as it's been designed to be seen but
>> it raises
>> havoc with efforts to browse efficiently in most cases. I'm glad
>> Freedom
>> Scientific gives me the choices but I find it's generally more
>> efficient to
>> let them determine how data is presented.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-
>> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Mike Arrigo
>> Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 9:46 AM
>> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>>
>> Well, at the beginning of each section, it says in Windows, this is
>> how things work. That should never have been there as the way windows
>> does things is makes o difference in this case. I would say the main
>> difference between voice over and windows screen readers can be
>> summed
>> up this way. In windows, the screen reader usually automatically
>> indicates what you need to focus on. On the mac, the information is
>> still all available to you, however, voice over does not decide what
>> should be spoken. You use the voice over cursor keys to indicate what
>> you want read. If you want a progress bar automatically announced for
>> example, you can set your voice over cursor on it and voice over will
>> continue to read it. When you've heard enough, simply move the cursor
>> to another item. Yes, this does mean that there is more navigation
>> involved in using the mac, no question about that. However, this
>> allows the end user to decide what they want spoken instead of the
>> computer making those decisions. Neither approach is better, they're
>> just different.
>> On Jul 25, 2009, at 9:51 PM, albert griffith wrote:
>>
>>> Mike, I didn't think the author of the article was knocking the
>>> screen
>>> reader because it didn't perform like windows but that it was too
>>> stroke
>>> intensive and often didn't offer enough verbosity for adequate
>>> feedback.
>>> While Apple's product doesn't need to imitate Windows it should
>>> offer
>>> assistance that's convenient and adequate to the assigned task. It
>>> appears
>>> too many of the protocols required to complete tasks are lacking in
>>> one or
>>> both of these critical elements.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-
>>> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Mike Arrigo
>>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 7:48 PM
>>> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>>>
>>> That was the big mistake of this article, the concept seemed to be,
>>> windows does it this way, and if the mac does it differently, it's a
>>> problem. There are several similarities between the mac and windows,
>>> but expecting the mac to work the exact same way is a recipe for
>>> frustration. In my pod casts on blindcooltech, I try my best to make
>>> comparisons when they're appropriate, but also remind the listener
>>> that it's not windows, and therefore will not behave the same.
>>> On Jul 25, 2009, at 2:24 PM, Ray Foret jr wrote:
>>>
>>>> Granted, Voice over is well worth serious consideration; but,
>>>> Kevin,
>>>> there's
>>>> no need to get unpleasant about it. The NFB's perspective was
>>>> written from
>>>> a Windows users point of view because that's what most blind
>>>> computer users
>>>> are familiar with. Like it or not, this is so. I always hear
>>>> Voice
>>>> Over
>>>> users say "You can't compare the Mac to Windows.". Fair enough.
>>>> So, in
>>>> that case, why not truly help us Windows users get to know Voice
>>>> Over better
>>>> instead of just criticizing us just because we do what it is human
>>>> nature to
>>>> do; compare one thing to another. I grant you that the Mac is
>>>> worth
>>>> serious
>>>> consideration; and, If I wasn't still paying for this lap top, I
>>>> would
>>>> indeed very seriously look at Voice Over. Let me give you an
>>>> example of how
>>>> Voice Over users can be more helpful. In the NFB article, it is
>>>> stated that
>>>> when you press the space bar to check or uncheck items on a web
>>>> page, Voice
>>>> Over does not tell you whether an item is checked or unchecked. I
>>>> believe
>>>> this is true; however, there is another factor. The article then
>>>> goes on to
>>>> incorrectly state that there is no way without fumbling around, to
>>>> determine
>>>> whether an item is checked or not. As I understand it, there is a
>>>> special
>>>> Voice over key command which is used to check or uncheck items on
>>>> web pages.
>>>> When this key stroke is used, Voice over will tell you at once
>>>> whether an
>>>> item is checked or unchecked. Now, it's quite clear to me that the
>>>> fellow
>>>> reviewing Voice Over for the NFB did not know this fact. but, I
>>>> ask
>>>> you,
>>>> why did not some voice over users help him with the trouble he was
>>>> having?
>>>> Why did the NFB not seek help from Voice Over users? Well, I think
>>>> I can
>>>> answer that one. He wanted to deal with Voice Over from the stand
>>>> point of
>>>> a strictly out of the box experience. IN other words, his logic
>>>> was
>>>> this.
>>>> "Let me see what I can learn about Voice Over strictly from the
>>>> help
>>>> and
>>>> what ever documentation I can access on my own.". Fair enough;
>>>> but,
>>>> let's
>>>> think a bit. How many Windows users do you know who rely just on
>>>> the built
>>>> in help and what documentation they can read on their own? Well, I
>>>> sure
>>>> don't know too many myself. Most Windows users go to one another
>>>> for help
>>>> and we help each other. Why, therefore, did the NFB fellow not
>>>> seek
>>>> help in
>>>> the same way from Mac users? A fair question I think. Frankly, I
>>>> am
>>>> perfectly willing to take a look at Voice over, not so much from
>>>> the
>>>> NFB
>>>> stand point; nor from a Voice Over defense point of view. My look
>>>> will be
>>>> based a bit on both and I will be wanting to get very objective
>>>> information.
>>>> I don't think I can count on either the NFB or Voice Over devotees
>>>> to be
>>>> truly objective; and, therefore, the best strategy I can think of
>>>> is
>>>> to take
>>>> the best of both and make your own decision.
>>>>
>>>> Sincerely,
>>>> The Constantly BAREFOOTED Ray
>>>>
>>>> "Old friend, what are you looking for? After those many years
>>>> abroad you
>>>> come With images you tended Under foreign skies Far away from your
>>>> own land"
>>>> George Seferis
>>>>
>>>> Phone or Fax::
>>>> +1 (985) 360-3614
>>>> Cell:
>>>> +1 (985) 791-2938
>>>> e-mail:
>>>> rforetjratcomcastdotnet
>>>> Skype Name:
>>>> barefootedray
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Kevin Fjelsted" <kfjelsted at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 12:49 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> VoiceOver is absolutely awesome. A superb resource for reading
>>>> details
>>>> from a community perspective is http://www.lioncourt.com.
>>>> I thhink that the exciting thing about VoiceOver is that the stars
>>>> are
>>>> aligned for us. 1) Apple is making record profits and is applying
>>>> resources in support of VoiceOver access across there entire
>>>> product
>>>> line including mobile devices. The fact that the NFB technology
>>>> center
>>>> chooses to publish inaccuracies and propaganda
>>>> which is so misleading must mean that the existing companies like
>>>> Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to rally resources
>>>> to
>>>> quash VoiceOver usage. When ever we see established organizations
>>>> becoming defensive it is time to really dig under the covers and
>>>> ask
>>>> the reasons why. In my opinion every blind person who relies on
>>>> accessibility technology for computers and mobile devices needs to
>>>> look at VoiceOver as well as the other technologies and proactively
>>>> push the envelope so that we can create momentum for transparency.
>>>> My
>>>> question is, why aren't all of the vendors emulating the approach
>>>> of
>>>> VoiceOver, which is to have built in accessibility to the device
>>>> out
>>>> of the box without charging extra? WHen I can pay $190 for a cell
>>>> phone that has built in accessibility I find that amazing compared
>>>> to
>>>> spending money for a cell phone and then having to turn around and
>>>> buy
>>>> a 3rd party access solution that in many cases only works half
>>>> baked.
>>>> Not only do I get a cell phone for $190 but I get all the built in
>>>> apps talking clock, calculator, maps, weather forecasting, text
>>>> messaging, address book management, calendaring including syncing
>>>> with
>>>> other calendars. For years blind people have taken the position
>>>> that
>>>> touch screens are the enemy and that we can't use them. Yet the
>>>> IPhone
>>>> with VoiceOver is totally dependent on the touch screen. I do
>>>> everything with the touch screen look at email, update my calendar,
>>>> make phone calls,.... -Kevin Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 10:26 AM,
>>>> tunecollector<tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>> This subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has
>>>>> anyone
>>>>> used
>>>>> it more intensively since then? Is it ready for prime time? What
>>>>> are its
>>>>> drawbacks.
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> gui-talk mailing list
>>>>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>> for
>>>>> gui-talk:
>>>>>
>>>
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail
>>> .
>>> com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Kevin Fjelsted
>>>> B Harris, Inc.
>>>> http://www.bharrisinc.com
>>>> kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
>>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
>>>> Phone: 612.424.7333 EX. 301
>>>> Direct: 612.424.7332
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> gui-talk mailing list
>>>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>> for
>>>> gui-talk:
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/rforetjr%40comcast
>>> .net
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> gui-talk mailing list
>>>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>> for gui-talk:
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
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>>> t
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> gui-talk mailing list
>>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>> for
>>> gui-talk:
>>>
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/albertgriffith%40s
>>> bcglobal.net
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> gui-talk mailing list
>>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>> for gui-talk:
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>>
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>>
>>
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------------------------------
Message: 16
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 17:21:02 -0500
From: Mike Arrigo <n0oxy at charter.net>
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <0924E77B-4C17-402B-B067-E369C81B36F2 at charter.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
Another difference between windows and mac with regard to software is,
in Windows, though there are standards, they are not always followed,
even by Microsoft itself. Using custom, or nonstandard controls is
done without a second thought, though usually, at least from a
functional stand point, there is no need to do this. On the other
hand, doing this on the mac is frowned upon and discouraged, so most
programs use the controls that the mac operating system supplies. And,
unless there is a real need to use something else, and I don't
consider visual appeal a good reason, this is the way it should be.
On Jul 26, 2009, at 2:30 PM, Steve Jacobson wrote:
> Gerald,
>
> The secrecy and tight control that apple tends to keep over software
> development is also what might make it possible
> for them to enforce accessibility in a way that Microsoft can't.
> Some of how this plays out depends upon the level of
> commitment to accessibility that Apple has, and we'll need to see
> what happens over time.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Steve Jacobson
>
> On Sun, 26 Jul 2009 10:28:44 -0400, Gerald Levy wrote:
>
>
>> But Voice Over will never acquire the same level of functionality
>> as JAWS
>> and Window Eyes until Apple changes its corporate culture from one of
>> absolute secrecy and protectiveness to one that's more open and
>> receptive to
>> outside influence like FS and GWM. Steve Jobs has never shown any
>> inclination to allow outside software developers and Mac users to
>> have any
>> direct influence on his company's products. This is why Apple has
>> never
>> achieved much success in business and government environments, and
>> will
>> always be a minor player in the PC market despite its panache and
>> loyal
>> following.
>
>> Gerald
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 9:30 AM
>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>
>
>>> As always, Steve makes some good points. I want to bring out a
>>> couple of
>>> them.
>>>
>>> There has been much discussion about Mac versus Windows, and JAWS
>>> and
>>> Window-Eyes versus System Access, and NVDA have also come out. I
>>> want to
>>> emphasize one thing, that has been hinted at. That is using a
>>> computer at
>>> work. The Mac is powerful and interesting, but as a Mac we could
>>> not get
>>> it to work with many of the applications we see regularly at
>>> employment
>>> sites. We also can't get System Access, and NVDA to work with
>>> many of
>>> these applications as well. It takes the powerful scripting
>>> capabilities
>>> of JAWS or Window-Eyes. They are more expensive, in part because
>>> of all
>>> the extra work needed to work with such a wide range of
>>> applications.
>>> They are not perfect either, but they make it possible for many
>>> blind
>>> persons to hold down jobs. VoiceOver may get there, but it just
>>> hasn't
>>> been long enough for it to develop all the features needed.
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>> At 07:40 AM 7/26/2009, you wrote:
>>>> In looking at the Braille Monitor article and VoiceOver
>>>> and other
>>>> issues raised, there are a lot of things that
>>>> need to be considered. The
>>>> article, even with its acknowledged inaccuracies, has a
>>>> perspective that
>>>> should be considered, and could result in more
>>>> of us attaining a better understanding of both environments. When
>>>> listening to the two
>>>> hour pod cast on this article, I was surprised at the number of
>>>> times that
>>>> the creators noted that a point made by the
>>>> article
>>>> was worth considering. I also noted occasions when the article
>>>> said
>>>> something was not accessible when it actually
>>>> was, but far from simple. There were inaccuracies, though, and
>>>> while
>>>> there were useful aspects of the article's
>>>> perspective, the perspective was not clearly explained. I want
>>>> to lay a
>>>> few thoughts out here in hopes that it provokes
>>>> some reasonable discussion if that is possible. If we are to truly
>>>> understand and evaluate VoiceOver, we need
>>>> information.
>>>>
>>>> In reading the Braille Monitor article, one should not think of
>>>> it as a
>>>> complete evaluation of VoiceOver, even though that
>>>> is what it implies. Rather, one should think of it as the
>>>> experiences of
>>>> a Windows user trying to learn the VoiceOver
>>>> software using primarily the documentation that comes with the
>>>> MAC. A
>>>> Windows user who switches to the MAC should
>>>> take from this article that they need to talk to other MAC users
>>>> and be
>>>> prepared for doing some things differently. Also,
>>>> anyone looking at VoiceOver should be aware of the fact that
>>>> there will
>>>> soon be a new version of the MAC operating
>>>> system and this could bring with it improvements to VoiceOver.
>>>> However,
>>>> having said that, it is clear that VoiceOver is
>>>> certainly ready for prime time, to answer the original
>>>> questioner, but one
>>>> should take the time before switching to a MAC
>>>> to be sure it will do the specific things one wants done. This
>>>> is just as
>>>> true if one were to remain in Windows and switch
>>>> screen readers. If you use a specific piece of software or you do
>>>> something that most people may not do, you need to
>>>> be certain you will be able to do it after you switch, and again,
>>>> I mean
>>>> whether you switch to a MAC or whether you
>>>> switch to a different screen reader..
>>>>
>>>> There are some legitimate concerns with accessibility built into
>>>> the
>>>> operating system as it now stands, but time will tell if it
>>>> works out. There are also some very significant differences
>>>> between the
>>>> MAC environment and the Windows
>>>> environment that makes accessibility simpler on the MAC than in
>>>> Windows
>>>> that affects the solution in each environment.
>>>> The fact is that one reason that accessibility is not built into
>>>> the
>>>> Windows operating system in the form of a full-featured
>>>> screen reader is that many of us who have had experience in this
>>>> field
>>>> were not convinced that Microsoft would do as
>>>> good a job, especially when prioritizing accessibility to other
>>>> products
>>>> and access to their own products, as would the
>>>> existing screen reader developers. I still firmly believe that
>>>> having a
>>>> free Windows screen reader with one company
>>>> behind it, in effect forcing the others out of business, would have
>>>> resulted in my not being able to do some of what I've
>>>> been able to do on my job. It is also my feeling, although
>>>> somewhat
>>>> unsubstantiated, that Microsoft may not have been
>>>> anxious to take on such a task. According to what I heard a few
>>>> years ago
>>>> from persons working for Apple, the feeling
>>>> is that Apple is in a stronger position than Microsoft to
>>>> encourage or
>>>> even force people developing software for the MAC
>>>> to build in to their software those things which VoiceOver needs to
>>>> function. This is the case because there are fewer
>>>> development platforms for writing MAC software and Apple has a
>>>> tighter
>>>> relationship with those who want software to run
>>>> on the MAC. This means that more of what is needed for
>>>> accessibility can
>>>> be put into the software or development tools
>>>> leaving VoiceOver with a better interface to work with. In
>>>> addition,
>>>> there are a relatively limited number of computer
>>>> configurations with which to deal. When you buy a MAC, you by an
>>>> apple
>>>> computer with apple's operating system. This
>>>> is not meant to be critical, just to point out differences.
>>>>
>>>> On the Windows side, when there have been Microsoft computers,
>>>> they have
>>>> never represented a significant market
>>>> share. There are many variations of computer hardware running
>>>> Windows.
>>>> There are also many different development
>>>> platforms. Some of us have felt that
>>>> Microsoft should have enforced more accessibility than they have
>>>> done with
>>>> developers, but they have made some
>>>> efforts to do so. They do not seem to have as tight a hold on
>>>> developers
>>>> as does Apple, though. As a result, there is
>>>> significantly more for Windows screen readers to have to do.
>>>> With the
>>>> increased use of MSAA, this has
>>>> changed some, though, and it is possible that in years to come
>>>> the two
>>>> environments may look more similar in terms of
>>>> accessibility. However, you will definitely find that Window-
>>>> Eyes and JFW
>>>> will do a fair job of working with some
>>>> software that less expensive screen readers will not work with.
>>>> I have a
>>>> couple of applications that work seamlessly
>>>> with both Window-Eyes and JFW that did not work with System
>>>> Access or
>>>> NVDA. We have no way of knowing if there
>>>> would be a way for another screen reader to work in ways that
>>>> might be
>>>> better than Voiceover because it isn't likely
>>>> worth the effort to try to develop such a thing. If Apple can
>>>> really
>>>> control software development, this won't matter as
>>>> much, though, and they are in a better position to do that given
>>>> the more
>>>> manageable number of players and the fact
>>>> that Apple generally controls the operating system and the
>>>> hardware. This
>>>> isn't meant to minimize what apple has done,
>>>> and they deserve credit. It simply means that having VoiceOver
>>>> included
>>>> with the operating system has a better chance
>>>> of working.
>>>>
>>>> So what are the concers with Apple's software? Well, when Apple
>>>> was very
>>>> strong in schools, blind kids often had to
>>>> use computers that used Windows to be able to do some of the same
>>>> things
>>>> their classmates were doing with the MAC
>>>> because the Mac was not accessible at the time. In some cases,
>>>> Microsoft
>>>> has made significant gains in school
>>>> districts. The school my kids attend is very much a Microsoft
>>>> school
>>>> system. One concern with the budgets that school
>>>> districts have is that there will be pressure for blind kids to
>>>> use MAC's
>>>> and VoiceOver instead of the same equipment
>>>> used by other students because VoiceOver is included in the
>>>> price and
>>>> saves money. Whatever is done, we have to
>>>> be certain that kids get the best access they can to educational
>>>> software.
>>>> School districts won't necessarily know that
>>>> Microsoft Word for the MAC doesn't work with VoiceOver for
>>>> example. In
>>>> fairness, this is due to a large degree to
>>>> Microsoft not conforming to the accessibility guidelines apple
>>>> requires,
>>>> but that doesn't change the results. I'd like some
>>>> understanding of whether the educational software
>>>> used by most kids that use MACS will work as well with VoiceOver as
>>>> similar software does under Windows. Let's be
>>>> clear, though, not all educational software works under Windows,
>>>> either,
>>>> and I know that. It needs to be noted that we
>>>> continue to push
>>>> Microsoft for more, too, and we push the screen reader developers
>>>> as well.
>>>>
>>>> Finally, what about Windows bias? I frankly think this is a
>>>> distraction
>>>> that is being used by some Mac advocates to not
>>>> try to deal with criticisms. I know of nobody who seems to love
>>>> windows
>>>> in the way that MAC people seem to love the
>>>> MAC. This could be well deserved love, I don't know. I do
>>>> recognize that
>>>> I am biased by features included in screen
>>>> readers who do things based upon fifteen years of trying to give
>>>> this
>>>> market what it wants. Some of what we don't feel
>>>> we see in VoiceOver has more to do with our existing screen
>>>> readers than
>>>> with Windows. Much of what we have
>>>> grown used to actually began with the more advanced DOS screen
>>>> readers.
>>>> Still, just because something has been
>>>> done a certain way does not mean it is being done as well as it
>>>> could be.
>>>> Nevertheless, I find it somewhat frustrating
>>>> when I listen to some of the podcasts on this issue to see that
>>>> something
>>>> VoiceOver does not do is portrayed as a
>>>> feature rather than explaining why it might not be possible. On
>>>> the other
>>>> hand, we have to be careful as Windows users
>>>> not to jump to conclusions. Some of what Windows screen readers
>>>> must do
>>>> to make software accessible through
>>>> scripting involves manipulating the mouse and simulating mouse
>>>> clicks
>>>> while the MAC and handle some events by
>>>> manipulating the software being run through operating system
>>>> mechanisms.
>>>> Some solutions that we might see as less
>>>> reliable under Windows may in fact be very reliable under the Mac
>>>> operating system and VoiceOver. We need to realize
>>>> that the TextEdit program is not a text editor as we know NotePad
>>>> to be,
>>>> it is more of a word processor like WordPad
>>>> and perhaps more. Comparing TextEdit to Microsoft Word as our
>>>> article did
>>>> is not fair either, though.There are probably
>>>> other conclusions to which we have jumped based upon our
>>>> experience in
>>>> Windows, and we need to be open to that.
>>>> However, if VoiceOver does not do something that we have become
>>>> accustomed
>>>> to, an explanation of why it doesn't
>>>> seems more reasonable to me than to have our questions written
>>>> off as a
>>>> Windows bias as has been done on some of
>>>> the Podcasts.
>>>>
>>>> Beyond the Braille Monitor article, we need some real discussion
>>>> and real
>>>> information. How about some
>>>> constructive discussion so that we can make both the Apple and the
>>>> Microsoft environments work better for us while
>>>> recognizing the efforts that have already been made.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, 25 Jul 2009 14:55:10 -0500, Kevin Fjelsted wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The NFB article is located at
>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/ndplsk
>>>>> I recommend that you also read a review of that article at
>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/l2samj
>>>>
>>>>> -Kevin
>>>>
>>>>> On 7/25/09, albert griffith <albertgriffith at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Kevin, I'm definitely purchasing a new machine in the next
>>>>>> couple
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> months and I'm seriously considering a Mac. I'd like to read
>>>>>> the NFB
>>>>>> articles of which you speak with all their inaccuracies but I
>>>>>> don't
>>>>>> know
>>>>>> where to locate them. Can you tell me where to go to read
>>>>>> them? I
>>>>>> don't
>>>>>> need an exact URL just the general area will do. thanks
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
[mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> ]
>>>>>> On
>>>>>> Behalf Of Kevin Fjelsted
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 1:50 PM
>>>>>> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>>>>>>
>>>>>> VoiceOver is absolutely awesome. A superb resource for reading
>>>>>> details
>>>>>> from a community perspective is http://www.lioncourt.com.
>>>>>> I thhink that the exciting thing about VoiceOver is that the
>>>>>> stars are
>>>>>> aligned for us. 1) Apple is making record profits and is applying
>>>>>> resources in support of VoiceOver access across there entire
>>>>>> product
>>>>>> line including mobile devices. The fact that the NFB technology
>>>>>> center
>>>>>> chooses to publish inaccuracies and propaganda
>>>>>> which is so misleading must mean that the existing companies like
>>>>>> Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to rally
>>>>>> resources to
>>>>>> quash VoiceOver usage. When ever we see established organizations
>>>>>> becoming defensive it is time to really dig under the covers
>>>>>> and ask
>>>>>> the reasons why. In my opinion every blind person who relies on
>>>>>> accessibility technology for computers and mobile devices needs
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> look at VoiceOver as well as the other technologies and
>>>>>> proactively
>>>>>> push the envelope so that we can create momentum for
>>>>>> transparency. My
>>>>>> question is, why aren't all of the vendors emulating the
>>>>>> approach of
>>>>>> VoiceOver, which is to have built in accessibility to the
>>>>>> device out
>>>>>> of the box without charging extra? WHen I can pay $190 for a cell
>>>>>> phone that has built in accessibility I find that amazing
>>>>>> compared to
>>>>>> spending money for a cell phone and then having to turn around
>>>>>> and buy
>>>>>> a 3rd party access solution that in many cases only works half
>>>>>> baked.
>>>>>> Not only do I get a cell phone for $190 but I get all the built
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> apps talking clock, calculator, maps, weather forecasting, text
>>>>>> messaging, address book management, calendaring including
>>>>>> syncing with
>>>>>> other calendars. For years blind people have taken the position
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> touch screens are the enemy and that we can't use them. Yet the
>>>>>> IPhone
>>>>>> with VoiceOver is totally dependent on the touch screen. I do
>>>>>> everything with the touch screen look at email, update my
>>>>>> calendar,
>>>>>> make phone calls,.... -Kevin Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 10:26 AM,
>>>>>> tunecollector<tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> This subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has
>>>>>>> anyone
>>>>>> used
>>>>>>> it more intensively since then? Is it ready for prime
>>>>>>> time? What
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>> its
>>>>>>> drawbacks.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> gui-talk mailing list
>>>>>>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>> gui-talk:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail
>>>> .
>>>>>> com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Kevin Fjelsted
>>>>>> B Harris, Inc.
>>>>>> http://www.bharrisinc.com
>>>>>> kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
>>>>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
>>>>>> Phone: 612.424.7333 EX. 301
>>>>>> Direct: 612.424.7332
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> gui-talk mailing list
>>>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>> for
>>>> gui-talk:
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
>>>> signature database 4278 (20090725) __________
>>>>
>>>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
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>
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------------------------------
Message: 17
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 17:21:34 -0500
From: Mike Arrigo <n0oxy at charter.net>
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <636CF94E-0527-4FA2-80E9-E2FA3209A92E at charter.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
Hmmmm, I haven't heard of these, but they sound interesting.
On Jul 26, 2009, at 4:08 PM, albert griffith wrote:
> Has anyone listened to any of the, battle of the screen readers
> podcasts?
> If so, were they helpful as tools for comparing them?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-
> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Mike Arrigo
> Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 1:34 PM
> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>
> Well, when it comes to functionality, just because something has more
> features, doesnot automatically make it better. I think it would be
> safe to say that most people never use every single feature of their
> windows screen readers, even half of the features might be pushing it.
> And, if you don't use certain features, then having them doesn't
> really make much difference. Of course, the mac operating system does
> things differently than windows, so you need things to work
> differently with the screen reader, the real question is, does voice
> over do what is sets out to do, and that is to allow a blind person to
> use and be productive with the mac operating system. The answer to
> that I would say is a definite yes.
> On Jul 26, 2009, at 9:28 AM, Gerald Levy wrote:
>
>>
>> But Voice Over will never acquire the same level of functionality as
>> JAWS and Window Eyes until Apple changes its corporate culture from
>> one of absolute secrecy and protectiveness to one that's more open
>> and receptive to outside influence like FS and GWM. Steve Jobs has
>> never shown any inclination to allow outside software developers and
>> Mac users to have any direct influence on his company's products.
>> This is why Apple has never achieved much success in business and
>> government environments, and will always be a minor player in the PC
>> market despite its panache and loyal following.
>>
>> Gerald
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Andrews"
>> <dandrews at visi.com>
>> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 9:30 AM
>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>>
>>
>>> As always, Steve makes some good points. I want to bring out a
>>> couple of them.
>>>
>>> There has been much discussion about Mac versus Windows, and JAWS
>>> and Window-Eyes versus System Access, and NVDA have also come out.
>>> I want to emphasize one thing, that has been hinted at. That is
>>> using a computer at work. The Mac is powerful and interesting, but
>>> as a Mac we could not get it to work with many of the applications
>>> we see regularly at employment sites. We also can't get System
>>> Access, and NVDA to work with many of these applications as well.
>>> It takes the powerful scripting capabilities of JAWS or Window-
>>> Eyes. They are more expensive, in part because of all the extra
>>> work needed to work with such a wide range of applications. They
>>> are not perfect either, but they make it possible for many blind
>>> persons to hold down jobs. VoiceOver may get there, but it just
>>> hasn't been long enough for it to develop all the features needed.
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>> At 07:40 AM 7/26/2009, you wrote:
>>>> In looking at the Braille Monitor article and VoiceOver and
>>>> other issues raised, there are a lot of things that
>>>> need to be considered. The
>>>> article, even with its acknowledged inaccuracies, has a
>>>> perspective that should be considered, and could result in more
>>>> of us attaining a better understanding of both environments. When
>>>> listening to the two
>>>> hour pod cast on this article, I was surprised at the number of
>>>> times that the creators noted that a point made by the
>>>> article
>>>> was worth considering. I also noted occasions when the article
>>>> said something was not accessible when it actually
>>>> was, but far from simple. There were inaccuracies, though, and
>>>> while there were useful aspects of the article's
>>>> perspective, the perspective was not clearly explained. I want to
>>>> lay a few thoughts out here in hopes that it provokes
>>>> some reasonable discussion if that is possible. If we are to
>>>> truly understand and evaluate VoiceOver, we need
>>>> information.
>>>>
>>>> In reading the Braille Monitor article, one should not think of it
>>>> as a complete evaluation of VoiceOver, even though that
>>>> is what it implies. Rather, one should think of it as the
>>>> experiences of a Windows user trying to learn the VoiceOver
>>>> software using primarily the documentation that comes with the
>>>> MAC. A Windows user who switches to the MAC should
>>>> take from this article that they need to talk to other MAC users
>>>> and be prepared for doing some things differently. Also,
>>>> anyone looking at VoiceOver should be aware of the fact that there
>>>> will soon be a new version of the MAC operating
>>>> system and this could bring with it improvements to VoiceOver.
>>>> However, having said that, it is clear that VoiceOver is
>>>> certainly ready for prime time, to answer the original questioner,
>>>> but one should take the time before switching to a MAC
>>>> to be sure it will do the specific things one wants done. This is
>>>> just as true if one were to remain in Windows and switch
>>>> screen readers. If you use a specific piece of software or you do
>>>> something that most people may not do, you need to
>>>> be certain you will be able to do it after you switch, and again,
>>>> I mean whether you switch to a MAC or whether you
>>>> switch to a different screen reader..
>>>>
>>>> There are some legitimate concerns with accessibility built into
>>>> the operating system as it now stands, but time will tell if it
>>>> works out. There are also some very significant differences
>>>> between the MAC environment and the Windows
>>>> environment that makes accessibility simpler on the MAC than in
>>>> Windows that affects the solution in each environment.
>>>> The fact is that one reason that accessibility is not built into
>>>> the Windows operating system in the form of a full-featured
>>>> screen reader is that many of us who have had experience in this
>>>> field were not convinced that Microsoft would do as
>>>> good a job, especially when prioritizing accessibility to other
>>>> products and access to their own products, as would the
>>>> existing screen reader developers. I still firmly believe that
>>>> having a free Windows screen reader with one company
>>>> behind it, in effect forcing the others out of business, would
>>>> have resulted in my not being able to do some of what I've
>>>> been able to do on my job. It is also my feeling, although
>>>> somewhat unsubstantiated, that Microsoft may not have been
>>>> anxious to take on such a task. According to what I heard a few
>>>> years ago from persons working for Apple, the feeling
>>>> is that Apple is in a stronger position than Microsoft to
>>>> encourage or even force people developing software for the MAC
>>>> to build in to their software those things which VoiceOver needs
>>>> to function. This is the case because there are fewer
>>>> development platforms for writing MAC software and Apple has a
>>>> tighter relationship with those who want software to run
>>>> on the MAC. This means that more of what is needed for
>>>> accessibility can be put into the software or development tools
>>>> leaving VoiceOver with a better interface to work with. In
>>>> addition, there are a relatively limited number of computer
>>>> configurations with which to deal. When you buy a MAC, you by an
>>>> apple computer with apple's operating system. This
>>>> is not meant to be critical, just to point out differences.
>>>>
>>>> On the Windows side, when there have been Microsoft computers,
>>>> they have never represented a significant market
>>>> share. There are many variations of computer hardware running
>>>> Windows. There are also many different development
>>>> platforms. Some of us have felt that
>>>> Microsoft should have enforced more accessibility than they have
>>>> done with developers, but they have made some
>>>> efforts to do so. They do not seem to have as tight a hold on
>>>> developers as does Apple, though. As a result, there is
>>>> significantly more for Windows screen readers to have to do. With
>>>> the increased use of MSAA, this has
>>>> changed some, though, and it is possible that in years to come the
>>>> two environments may look more similar in terms of
>>>> accessibility. However, you will definitely find that Window-Eyes
>>>> and JFW will do a fair job of working with some
>>>> software that less expensive screen readers will not work with. I
>>>> have a couple of applications that work seamlessly
>>>> with both Window-Eyes and JFW that did not work with System Access
>>>> or NVDA. We have no way of knowing if there
>>>> would be a way for another screen reader to work in ways that
>>>> might be better than Voiceover because it isn't likely
>>>> worth the effort to try to develop such a thing. If Apple can
>>>> really control software development, this won't matter as
>>>> much, though, and they are in a better position to do that given
>>>> the more manageable number of players and the fact
>>>> that Apple generally controls the operating system and the
>>>> hardware. This isn't meant to minimize what apple has done,
>>>> and they deserve credit. It simply means that having VoiceOver
>>>> included with the operating system has a better chance
>>>> of working.
>>>>
>>>> So what are the concers with Apple's software? Well, when Apple
>>>> was very strong in schools, blind kids often had to
>>>> use computers that used Windows to be able to do some of the same
>>>> things their classmates were doing with the MAC
>>>> because the Mac was not accessible at the time. In some cases,
>>>> Microsoft has made significant gains in school
>>>> districts. The school my kids attend is very much a Microsoft
>>>> school system. One concern with the budgets that school
>>>> districts have is that there will be pressure for blind kids to
>>>> use MAC's and VoiceOver instead of the same equipment
>>>> used by other students because VoiceOver is included in the price
>>>> and saves money. Whatever is done, we have to
>>>> be certain that kids get the best access they can to educational
>>>> software. School districts won't necessarily know that
>>>> Microsoft Word for the MAC doesn't work with VoiceOver for
>>>> example. In fairness, this is due to a large degree to
>>>> Microsoft not conforming to the accessibility guidelines apple
>>>> requires, but that doesn't change the results. I'd like some
>>>> understanding of whether the educational software
>>>> used by most kids that use MACS will work as well with VoiceOver
>>>> as similar software does under Windows. Let's be
>>>> clear, though, not all educational software works under Windows,
>>>> either, and I know that. It needs to be noted that we
>>>> continue to push
>>>> Microsoft for more, too, and we push the screen reader developers
>>>> as well.
>>>>
>>>> Finally, what about Windows bias? I frankly think this is a
>>>> distraction that is being used by some Mac advocates to not
>>>> try to deal with criticisms. I know of nobody who seems to love
>>>> windows in the way that MAC people seem to love the
>>>> MAC. This could be well deserved love, I don't know. I do
>>>> recognize that I am biased by features included in screen
>>>> readers who do things based upon fifteen years of trying to give
>>>> this market what it wants. Some of what we don't feel
>>>> we see in VoiceOver has more to do with our existing screen
>>>> readers than with Windows. Much of what we have
>>>> grown used to actually began with the more advanced DOS screen
>>>> readers. Still, just because something has been
>>>> done a certain way does not mean it is being done as well as it
>>>> could be. Nevertheless, I find it somewhat frustrating
>>>> when I listen to some of the podcasts on this issue to see that
>>>> something VoiceOver does not do is portrayed as a
>>>> feature rather than explaining why it might not be possible. On
>>>> the other hand, we have to be careful as Windows users
>>>> not to jump to conclusions. Some of what Windows screen readers
>>>> must do to make software accessible through
>>>> scripting involves manipulating the mouse and simulating mouse
>>>> clicks while the MAC and handle some events by
>>>> manipulating the software being run through operating system
>>>> mechanisms. Some solutions that we might see as less
>>>> reliable under Windows may in fact be very reliable under the Mac
>>>> operating system and VoiceOver. We need to realize
>>>> that the TextEdit program is not a text editor as we know NotePad
>>>> to be, it is more of a word processor like WordPad
>>>> and perhaps more. Comparing TextEdit to Microsoft Word as our
>>>> article did is not fair either, though.There are probably
>>>> other conclusions to which we have jumped based upon our
>>>> experience in Windows, and we need to be open to that.
>>>> However, if VoiceOver does not do something that we have become
>>>> accustomed to, an explanation of why it doesn't
>>>> seems more reasonable to me than to have our questions written off
>>>> as a Windows bias as has been done on some of
>>>> the Podcasts.
>>>>
>>>> Beyond the Braille Monitor article, we need some real discussion
>>>> and real information. How about some
>>>> constructive discussion so that we can make both the Apple and the
>>>> Microsoft environments work better for us while
>>>> recognizing the efforts that have already been made.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, 25 Jul 2009 14:55:10 -0500, Kevin Fjelsted wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The NFB article is located at
>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/ndplsk
>>>>> I recommend that you also read a review of that article at
>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/l2samj
>>>>
>>>>> -Kevin
>>>>
>>>>> On 7/25/09, albert griffith <albertgriffith at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Kevin, I'm definitely purchasing a new machine in the next
>>>> couple >> of
>>>>>> months and I'm seriously considering a Mac. I'd like to read
>>>> the NFB
>>>>>> articles of which you speak with all their inaccuracies but I
>>>> don't >> know
>>>>>> where to locate them. Can you tell me where to go to read
>>>> them? I >> don't
>>>>>> need an exact URL just the general area will do. thanks
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
[mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>
>>>> ] >> On
>>>>>> Behalf Of Kevin Fjelsted
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 1:50 PM
>>>>>> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>>>>>>
>>>>>> VoiceOver is absolutely awesome. A superb resource for reading
>>>> details
>>>>>> from a community perspective is http://www.lioncourt.com.
>>>>>> I thhink that the exciting thing about VoiceOver is that the
>>>> stars are
>>>>>> aligned for us. 1) Apple is making record profits and is applying
>>>>>> resources in support of VoiceOver access across there entire
>>>> product
>>>>>> line including mobile devices. The fact that the NFB technology
>>>> center
>>>>>> chooses to publish inaccuracies and propaganda
>>>>>> which is so misleading must mean that the existing companies like
>>>>>> Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to rally
>>>> resources to
>>>>>> quash VoiceOver usage. When ever we see established organizations
>>>>>> becoming defensive it is time to really dig under the covers
>>>> and ask
>>>>>> the reasons why. In my opinion every blind person who relies on
>>>>>> accessibility technology for computers and mobile devices needs
>>>> to
>>>>>> look at VoiceOver as well as the other technologies and
>>>> proactively
>>>>>> push the envelope so that we can create momentum for
>>>> transparency. My
>>>>>> question is, why aren't all of the vendors emulating the
>>>> approach of
>>>>>> VoiceOver, which is to have built in accessibility to the
>>>> device out
>>>>>> of the box without charging extra? WHen I can pay $190 for a cell
>>>>>> phone that has built in accessibility I find that amazing
>>>> compared to
>>>>>> spending money for a cell phone and then having to turn around
>>>> and buy
>>>>>> a 3rd party access solution that in many cases only works half
>>>> baked.
>>>>>> Not only do I get a cell phone for $190 but I get all the built
>>>> in
>>>>>> apps talking clock, calculator, maps, weather forecasting, text
>>>>>> messaging, address book management, calendaring including
>>>> syncing with
>>>>>> other calendars. For years blind people have taken the position
>>>> that
>>>>>> touch screens are the enemy and that we can't use them. Yet the
>>>> IPhone
>>>>>> with VoiceOver is totally dependent on the touch screen. I do
>>>>>> everything with the touch screen look at email, update my
>>>> calendar,
>>>>>> make phone calls,.... -Kevin Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 10:26 AM,
>>>>>> tunecollector<tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> This subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but
>>>> has >>> anyone
>>>>>> used
>>>>>>> it more intensively since then? Is it ready for prime
>>>> time? What >>> are
>>>>>> its
>>>>>>> drawbacks.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> gui-talk mailing list
>>>>>>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>> info for
>>>>>> gui-talk:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail
>>>> .
>>>>>> com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Kevin Fjelsted
>>>>>> B Harris, Inc.
>>>>>> http://www.bharrisinc.com
>>>>>> kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
>>>>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
>>>>>> Phone: 612.424.7333 EX. 301
>>>>>> Direct: 612.424.7332
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> gui-talk mailing list
>>>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>> for gui-talk:
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> m
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
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>>>
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------------------------------
Message: 18
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 17:24:12 -0500
From: Mike Arrigo <n0oxy at charter.net>
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] [Bulk] Re: Voiceover
To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <33CD1E70-3FFA-44E7-98E7-6AA97FD1D1B3 at charter.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
I think there are 2 sides to this, yes, apple's platform is in some
ways somewhat proprietary, though that term might be a little much. On
the other hand, it's the reason why the operating system works so well
with the macintosh hardware. However, even for third party devices,
such as flash drives, and usb headsets, the mac detects them much
faster than windows does.
On Jul 26, 2009, at 4:48 PM, tunecollector wrote:
> Apple hasn't done as well because they are control freaks. Instead of
> licensing their OS like Microsoft does, Apple wants it all. At one
> time, if
> you remember, you could get an Apple clone. Apple's decision to
> stop the
> cloning damn near put them out of business. But I will give them
> this: they
> do come up with the innovations. The only thing that Microsoft
> developed on
> its own and did not acquire was the joystick.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-
> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of albert griffith
> Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 2:16 PM
> To: 'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'
> Subject: [Bulk] Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>
> I tend to believe the reasons Apple hasn't done as well in corporate
> environments has more to do with more than their level of
> insularity. There
> aren't as many people trained to use them and for a long time their
> office
> productivity suite wasn't as robust as Microsoft's. If they're
> willing to
> spend the money the culture could work to their advantage because
> there'd be
> fewer glitches since they'd have control over the development of each
> program.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-
> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Steve Jacobson
> Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 3:30 PM
> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>
> Gerald,
>
> The secrecy and tight control that apple tends to keep over software
> development is also what might make it possible
> for them to enforce accessibility in a way that Microsoft can't.
> Some of
> how this plays out depends upon the level of
> commitment to accessibility that Apple has, and we'll need to see what
> happens over time.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Steve Jacobson
>
> On Sun, 26 Jul 2009 10:28:44 -0400, Gerald Levy wrote:
>
>
>> But Voice Over will never acquire the same level of functionality
>> as JAWS
>> and Window Eyes until Apple changes its corporate culture from one of
>> absolute secrecy and protectiveness to one that's more open and
>> receptive
> to
>> outside influence like FS and GWM. Steve Jobs has never shown any
>> inclination to allow outside software developers and Mac users to
>> have any
>> direct influence on his company's products. This is why Apple has
>> never
>> achieved much success in business and government environments, and
>> will
>> always be a minor player in the PC market despite its panache and
>> loyal
>> following.
>
>> Gerald
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 9:30 AM
>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>
>
>>> As always, Steve makes some good points. I want to bring out a
>>> couple of
>
>>> them.
>>>
>>> There has been much discussion about Mac versus Windows, and JAWS
>>> and
>>> Window-Eyes versus System Access, and NVDA have also come out. I
>>> want to
>
>>> emphasize one thing, that has been hinted at. That is using a
>>> computer
> at
>>> work. The Mac is powerful and interesting, but as a Mac we could
>>> not get
>
>>> it to work with many of the applications we see regularly at
>>> employment
>>> sites. We also can't get System Access, and NVDA to work with
>>> many of
>>> these applications as well. It takes the powerful scripting
>>> capabilities
>
>>> of JAWS or Window-Eyes. They are more expensive, in part because
>>> of all
>>> the extra work needed to work with such a wide range of
>>> applications.
>>> They are not perfect either, but they make it possible for many
>>> blind
>>> persons to hold down jobs. VoiceOver may get there, but it just
>>> hasn't
>>> been long enough for it to develop all the features needed.
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>> At 07:40 AM 7/26/2009, you wrote:
>>>> In looking at the Braille Monitor article and VoiceOver and
> other
>>>> issues raised, there are a lot of things that
>>>> need to be considered. The
>>>> article, even with its acknowledged inaccuracies, has a
>>>> perspective that
>>>> should be considered, and could result in more
>>>> of us attaining a better understanding of both environments. When
>>>> listening to the two
>>>> hour pod cast on this article, I was surprised at the number of
>>>> times
> that
>>>> the creators noted that a point made by the
>>>> article
>>>> was worth considering. I also noted occasions when the article
>>>> said
>>>> something was not accessible when it actually
>>>> was, but far from simple. There were inaccuracies, though, and
>>>> while
>>>> there were useful aspects of the article's
>>>> perspective, the perspective was not clearly explained. I want
>>>> to lay a
>>>> few thoughts out here in hopes that it provokes
>>>> some reasonable discussion if that is possible. If we are to truly
>>>> understand and evaluate VoiceOver, we need
>>>> information.
>>>>
>>>> In reading the Braille Monitor article, one should not think of
>>>> it as a
>>>> complete evaluation of VoiceOver, even though that
>>>> is what it implies. Rather, one should think of it as the
>>>> experiences of
>
>>>> a Windows user trying to learn the VoiceOver
>>>> software using primarily the documentation that comes with the
>>>> MAC. A
>>>> Windows user who switches to the MAC should
>>>> take from this article that they need to talk to other MAC users
>>>> and be
>>>> prepared for doing some things differently. Also,
>>>> anyone looking at VoiceOver should be aware of the fact that
>>>> there will
>>>> soon be a new version of the MAC operating
>>>> system and this could bring with it improvements to VoiceOver.
>>>> However,
>>>> having said that, it is clear that VoiceOver is
>>>> certainly ready for prime time, to answer the original
>>>> questioner, but
> one
>>>> should take the time before switching to a MAC
>>>> to be sure it will do the specific things one wants done. This
>>>> is just
> as
>>>> true if one were to remain in Windows and switch
>>>> screen readers. If you use a specific piece of software or you do
>>>> something that most people may not do, you need to
>>>> be certain you will be able to do it after you switch, and again,
>>>> I mean
>>>> whether you switch to a MAC or whether you
>>>> switch to a different screen reader..
>>>>
>>>> There are some legitimate concerns with accessibility built into
>>>> the
>>>> operating system as it now stands, but time will tell if it
>>>> works out. There are also some very significant differences
>>>> between the
>>>> MAC environment and the Windows
>>>> environment that makes accessibility simpler on the MAC than in
>>>> Windows
>>>> that affects the solution in each environment.
>>>> The fact is that one reason that accessibility is not built into
>>>> the
>>>> Windows operating system in the form of a full-featured
>>>> screen reader is that many of us who have had experience in this
>>>> field
>>>> were not convinced that Microsoft would do as
>>>> good a job, especially when prioritizing accessibility to other
>>>> products
>>>> and access to their own products, as would the
>>>> existing screen reader developers. I still firmly believe that
>>>> having a
>>>> free Windows screen reader with one company
>>>> behind it, in effect forcing the others out of business, would have
>>>> resulted in my not being able to do some of what I've
>>>> been able to do on my job. It is also my feeling, although
>>>> somewhat
>>>> unsubstantiated, that Microsoft may not have been
>>>> anxious to take on such a task. According to what I heard a few
>>>> years
> ago
>>>> from persons working for Apple, the feeling
>>>> is that Apple is in a stronger position than Microsoft to
>>>> encourage or
>>>> even force people developing software for the MAC
>>>> to build in to their software those things which VoiceOver needs to
>>>> function. This is the case because there are fewer
>>>> development platforms for writing MAC software and Apple has a
>>>> tighter
>>>> relationship with those who want software to run
>>>> on the MAC. This means that more of what is needed for
>>>> accessibility can
>
>>>> be put into the software or development tools
>>>> leaving VoiceOver with a better interface to work with. In
>>>> addition,
>>>> there are a relatively limited number of computer
>>>> configurations with which to deal. When you buy a MAC, you by an
>>>> apple
>>>> computer with apple's operating system. This
>>>> is not meant to be critical, just to point out differences.
>>>>
>>>> On the Windows side, when there have been Microsoft computers,
>>>> they have
>>>> never represented a significant market
>>>> share. There are many variations of computer hardware running
>>>> Windows.
>>>> There are also many different development
>>>> platforms. Some of us have felt that
>>>> Microsoft should have enforced more accessibility than they have
>>>> done
> with
>>>> developers, but they have made some
>>>> efforts to do so. They do not seem to have as tight a hold on
>>>> developers
>
>>>> as does Apple, though. As a result, there is
>>>> significantly more for Windows screen readers to have to do.
>>>> With the
>>>> increased use of MSAA, this has
>>>> changed some, though, and it is possible that in years to come
>>>> the two
>>>> environments may look more similar in terms of
>>>> accessibility. However, you will definitely find that Window-
>>>> Eyes and
> JFW
>>>> will do a fair job of working with some
>>>> software that less expensive screen readers will not work with.
>>>> I have a
>
>>>> couple of applications that work seamlessly
>>>> with both Window-Eyes and JFW that did not work with System
>>>> Access or
>>>> NVDA. We have no way of knowing if there
>>>> would be a way for another screen reader to work in ways that
>>>> might be
>>>> better than Voiceover because it isn't likely
>>>> worth the effort to try to develop such a thing. If Apple can
>>>> really
>>>> control software development, this won't matter as
>>>> much, though, and they are in a better position to do that given
>>>> the more
>
>>>> manageable number of players and the fact
>>>> that Apple generally controls the operating system and the
>>>> hardware.
> This
>>>> isn't meant to minimize what apple has done,
>>>> and they deserve credit. It simply means that having VoiceOver
>>>> included
>>>> with the operating system has a better chance
>>>> of working.
>>>>
>>>> So what are the concers with Apple's software? Well, when Apple
>>>> was very
>
>>>> strong in schools, blind kids often had to
>>>> use computers that used Windows to be able to do some of the same
>>>> things
>>>> their classmates were doing with the MAC
>>>> because the Mac was not accessible at the time. In some cases,
>>>> Microsoft
>
>>>> has made significant gains in school
>>>> districts. The school my kids attend is very much a Microsoft
>>>> school
>>>> system. One concern with the budgets that school
>>>> districts have is that there will be pressure for blind kids to
>>>> use MAC's
>
>>>> and VoiceOver instead of the same equipment
>>>> used by other students because VoiceOver is included in the
>>>> price and
>>>> saves money. Whatever is done, we have to
>>>> be certain that kids get the best access they can to educational
> software.
>>>> School districts won't necessarily know that
>>>> Microsoft Word for the MAC doesn't work with VoiceOver for
>>>> example. In
>>>> fairness, this is due to a large degree to
>>>> Microsoft not conforming to the accessibility guidelines apple
>>>> requires,
>>>> but that doesn't change the results. I'd like some
>>>> understanding of whether the educational software
>>>> used by most kids that use MACS will work as well with VoiceOver as
>>>> similar software does under Windows. Let's be
>>>> clear, though, not all educational software works under Windows,
>>>> either,
>>>> and I know that. It needs to be noted that we
>>>> continue to push
>>>> Microsoft for more, too, and we push the screen reader developers
>>>> as
> well.
>>>>
>>>> Finally, what about Windows bias? I frankly think this is a
>>>> distraction
>>>> that is being used by some Mac advocates to not
>>>> try to deal with criticisms. I know of nobody who seems to love
>>>> windows
>>>> in the way that MAC people seem to love the
>>>> MAC. This could be well deserved love, I don't know. I do
>>>> recognize
> that
>>>> I am biased by features included in screen
>>>> readers who do things based upon fifteen years of trying to give
>>>> this
>>>> market what it wants. Some of what we don't feel
>>>> we see in VoiceOver has more to do with our existing screen
>>>> readers than
>>>> with Windows. Much of what we have
>>>> grown used to actually began with the more advanced DOS screen
>>>> readers.
>>>> Still, just because something has been
>>>> done a certain way does not mean it is being done as well as it
>>>> could be.
>
>>>> Nevertheless, I find it somewhat frustrating
>>>> when I listen to some of the podcasts on this issue to see that
>>>> something
>
>>>> VoiceOver does not do is portrayed as a
>>>> feature rather than explaining why it might not be possible. On
>>>> the
> other
>>>> hand, we have to be careful as Windows users
>>>> not to jump to conclusions. Some of what Windows screen readers
>>>> must do
>>>> to make software accessible through
>>>> scripting involves manipulating the mouse and simulating mouse
>>>> clicks
>>>> while the MAC and handle some events by
>>>> manipulating the software being run through operating system
>>>> mechanisms.
>>>> Some solutions that we might see as less
>>>> reliable under Windows may in fact be very reliable under the Mac
>>>> operating system and VoiceOver. We need to realize
>>>> that the TextEdit program is not a text editor as we know NotePad
>>>> to be,
>>>> it is more of a word processor like WordPad
>>>> and perhaps more. Comparing TextEdit to Microsoft Word as our
>>>> article
> did
>>>> is not fair either, though.There are probably
>>>> other conclusions to which we have jumped based upon our
>>>> experience in
>>>> Windows, and we need to be open to that.
>>>> However, if VoiceOver does not do something that we have become
> accustomed
>>>> to, an explanation of why it doesn't
>>>> seems more reasonable to me than to have our questions written
>>>> off as a
>>>> Windows bias as has been done on some of
>>>> the Podcasts.
>>>>
>>>> Beyond the Braille Monitor article, we need some real discussion
>>>> and real
>
>>>> information. How about some
>>>> constructive discussion so that we can make both the Apple and the
>>>> Microsoft environments work better for us while
>>>> recognizing the efforts that have already been made.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, 25 Jul 2009 14:55:10 -0500, Kevin Fjelsted wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The NFB article is located at
>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/ndplsk
>>>>> I recommend that you also read a review of that article at
>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/l2samj
>>>>
>>>>> -Kevin
>>>>
>>>>> On 7/25/09, albert griffith <albertgriffith at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Kevin, I'm definitely purchasing a new machine in the next
>>>>>> couple
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> months and I'm seriously considering a Mac. I'd like to read
>>>>>> the NFB
>>>>>> articles of which you speak with all their inaccuracies but I
>>>>>> don't
>>>>>> know
>>>>>> where to locate them. Can you tell me where to go to read
>>>>>> them? I
>>>>>> don't
>>>>>> need an exact URL just the general area will do. thanks
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>> On
>>>>>> Behalf Of Kevin Fjelsted
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 1:50 PM
>>>>>> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>>>>>>
>>>>>> VoiceOver is absolutely awesome. A superb resource for reading
> details
>>>>>> from a community perspective is http://www.lioncourt.com.
>>>>>> I thhink that the exciting thing about VoiceOver is that the
>>>>>> stars
> are
>>>>>> aligned for us. 1) Apple is making record profits and is applying
>>>>>> resources in support of VoiceOver access across there entire
>>>>>> product
>>>>>> line including mobile devices. The fact that the NFB technology
> center
>>>>>> chooses to publish inaccuracies and propaganda
>>>>>> which is so misleading must mean that the existing companies like
>>>>>> Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to rally
>>>>>> resources
> to
>>>>>> quash VoiceOver usage. When ever we see established organizations
>>>>>> becoming defensive it is time to really dig under the covers
>>>>>> and ask
>>>>>> the reasons why. In my opinion every blind person who relies on
>>>>>> accessibility technology for computers and mobile devices needs
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> look at VoiceOver as well as the other technologies and
>>>>>> proactively
>>>>>> push the envelope so that we can create momentum for
>>>>>> transparency. My
>>>>>> question is, why aren't all of the vendors emulating the
>>>>>> approach
> of
>>>>>> VoiceOver, which is to have built in accessibility to the
>>>>>> device out
>>>>>> of the box without charging extra? WHen I can pay $190 for a cell
>>>>>> phone that has built in accessibility I find that amazing
>>>>>> compared to
>>>>>> spending money for a cell phone and then having to turn around
>>>>>> and
> buy
>>>>>> a 3rd party access solution that in many cases only works half
>>>>>> baked.
>>>>>> Not only do I get a cell phone for $190 but I get all the built
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> apps talking clock, calculator, maps, weather forecasting, text
>>>>>> messaging, address book management, calendaring including syncing
> with
>>>>>> other calendars. For years blind people have taken the position
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> touch screens are the enemy and that we can't use them. Yet the
> IPhone
>>>>>> with VoiceOver is totally dependent on the touch screen. I do
>>>>>> everything with the touch screen look at email, update my
>>>>>> calendar,
>>>>>> make phone calls,.... -Kevin Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 10:26 AM,
>>>>>> tunecollector<tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> This subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has
>>>>>>> anyone
>>>>>> used
>>>>>>> it more intensively since then? Is it ready for prime
>>>>>>> time? What
>
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>> its
>>>>>>> drawbacks.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> gui-talk mailing list
>>>>>>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>> info
> for
>>>>>> gui-talk:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail
> .
>>>>>> com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Kevin Fjelsted
>>>>>> B Harris, Inc.
>>>>>> http://www.bharrisinc.com
>>>>>> kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
>>>>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
>>>>>> Phone: 612.424.7333 EX. 301
>>>>>> Direct: 612.424.7332
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> gui-talk mailing list
>>>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>> for
>>>> gui-talk:
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
>>>> signature database 4278 (20090725) __________
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Message: 19
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 18:34:31 -0400
From: "albert griffith" <albertgriffith at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] What is wrong with march for independence
site?
To: "'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <00e601ca0e41$3e929f60$bbb7de20$@net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I'll take a look at the site but do you need to have logged in or something
to access what's troubling you?
-----Original Message-----
From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Kenlawrence124 at aol.com
Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 10:39 AM
To: gui-talk at nfbnet.org
Cc: greater-baltimore at nfbnet.org
Subject: [gui-talk] What is wrong with march for independence site?
Hi friends, has anyone figured what Convio did to march for independence
dot org, where did all those Graphic buttons come from? make like you're
sending a message to perspective donors or thanking them, you won't be able
to
send those messages. the buttons get into the send field.
I pledge to participate actively in the efforts of the national
federation
of the blind to achieve equality, opportunity, and security for the
blind;
to support the policies and programs of the federation; and abide by it's
constitution.
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