[gui-talk] Voiceover
Mike Arrigo
n0oxy at charter.net
Sun Jul 26 22:21:34 UTC 2009
Hmmmm, I haven't heard of these, but they sound interesting.
On Jul 26, 2009, at 4:08 PM, albert griffith wrote:
> Has anyone listened to any of the, battle of the screen readers
> podcasts?
> If so, were they helpful as tools for comparing them?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-
> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Mike Arrigo
> Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 1:34 PM
> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>
> Well, when it comes to functionality, just because something has more
> features, doesnot automatically make it better. I think it would be
> safe to say that most people never use every single feature of their
> windows screen readers, even half of the features might be pushing it.
> And, if you don't use certain features, then having them doesn't
> really make much difference. Of course, the mac operating system does
> things differently than windows, so you need things to work
> differently with the screen reader, the real question is, does voice
> over do what is sets out to do, and that is to allow a blind person to
> use and be productive with the mac operating system. The answer to
> that I would say is a definite yes.
> On Jul 26, 2009, at 9:28 AM, Gerald Levy wrote:
>
>>
>> But Voice Over will never acquire the same level of functionality as
>> JAWS and Window Eyes until Apple changes its corporate culture from
>> one of absolute secrecy and protectiveness to one that's more open
>> and receptive to outside influence like FS and GWM. Steve Jobs has
>> never shown any inclination to allow outside software developers and
>> Mac users to have any direct influence on his company's products.
>> This is why Apple has never achieved much success in business and
>> government environments, and will always be a minor player in the PC
>> market despite its panache and loyal following.
>>
>> Gerald
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Andrews"
>> <dandrews at visi.com>
>> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 9:30 AM
>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>>
>>
>>> As always, Steve makes some good points. I want to bring out a
>>> couple of them.
>>>
>>> There has been much discussion about Mac versus Windows, and JAWS
>>> and Window-Eyes versus System Access, and NVDA have also come out.
>>> I want to emphasize one thing, that has been hinted at. That is
>>> using a computer at work. The Mac is powerful and interesting, but
>>> as a Mac we could not get it to work with many of the applications
>>> we see regularly at employment sites. We also can't get System
>>> Access, and NVDA to work with many of these applications as well.
>>> It takes the powerful scripting capabilities of JAWS or Window-
>>> Eyes. They are more expensive, in part because of all the extra
>>> work needed to work with such a wide range of applications. They
>>> are not perfect either, but they make it possible for many blind
>>> persons to hold down jobs. VoiceOver may get there, but it just
>>> hasn't been long enough for it to develop all the features needed.
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>> At 07:40 AM 7/26/2009, you wrote:
>>>> In looking at the Braille Monitor article and VoiceOver and
>>>> other issues raised, there are a lot of things that
>>>> need to be considered. The
>>>> article, even with its acknowledged inaccuracies, has a
>>>> perspective that should be considered, and could result in more
>>>> of us attaining a better understanding of both environments. When
>>>> listening to the two
>>>> hour pod cast on this article, I was surprised at the number of
>>>> times that the creators noted that a point made by the
>>>> article
>>>> was worth considering. I also noted occasions when the article
>>>> said something was not accessible when it actually
>>>> was, but far from simple. There were inaccuracies, though, and
>>>> while there were useful aspects of the article's
>>>> perspective, the perspective was not clearly explained. I want to
>>>> lay a few thoughts out here in hopes that it provokes
>>>> some reasonable discussion if that is possible. If we are to
>>>> truly understand and evaluate VoiceOver, we need
>>>> information.
>>>>
>>>> In reading the Braille Monitor article, one should not think of it
>>>> as a complete evaluation of VoiceOver, even though that
>>>> is what it implies. Rather, one should think of it as the
>>>> experiences of a Windows user trying to learn the VoiceOver
>>>> software using primarily the documentation that comes with the
>>>> MAC. A Windows user who switches to the MAC should
>>>> take from this article that they need to talk to other MAC users
>>>> and be prepared for doing some things differently. Also,
>>>> anyone looking at VoiceOver should be aware of the fact that there
>>>> will soon be a new version of the MAC operating
>>>> system and this could bring with it improvements to VoiceOver.
>>>> However, having said that, it is clear that VoiceOver is
>>>> certainly ready for prime time, to answer the original questioner,
>>>> but one should take the time before switching to a MAC
>>>> to be sure it will do the specific things one wants done. This is
>>>> just as true if one were to remain in Windows and switch
>>>> screen readers. If you use a specific piece of software or you do
>>>> something that most people may not do, you need to
>>>> be certain you will be able to do it after you switch, and again,
>>>> I mean whether you switch to a MAC or whether you
>>>> switch to a different screen reader..
>>>>
>>>> There are some legitimate concerns with accessibility built into
>>>> the operating system as it now stands, but time will tell if it
>>>> works out. There are also some very significant differences
>>>> between the MAC environment and the Windows
>>>> environment that makes accessibility simpler on the MAC than in
>>>> Windows that affects the solution in each environment.
>>>> The fact is that one reason that accessibility is not built into
>>>> the Windows operating system in the form of a full-featured
>>>> screen reader is that many of us who have had experience in this
>>>> field were not convinced that Microsoft would do as
>>>> good a job, especially when prioritizing accessibility to other
>>>> products and access to their own products, as would the
>>>> existing screen reader developers. I still firmly believe that
>>>> having a free Windows screen reader with one company
>>>> behind it, in effect forcing the others out of business, would
>>>> have resulted in my not being able to do some of what I've
>>>> been able to do on my job. It is also my feeling, although
>>>> somewhat unsubstantiated, that Microsoft may not have been
>>>> anxious to take on such a task. According to what I heard a few
>>>> years ago from persons working for Apple, the feeling
>>>> is that Apple is in a stronger position than Microsoft to
>>>> encourage or even force people developing software for the MAC
>>>> to build in to their software those things which VoiceOver needs
>>>> to function. This is the case because there are fewer
>>>> development platforms for writing MAC software and Apple has a
>>>> tighter relationship with those who want software to run
>>>> on the MAC. This means that more of what is needed for
>>>> accessibility can be put into the software or development tools
>>>> leaving VoiceOver with a better interface to work with. In
>>>> addition, there are a relatively limited number of computer
>>>> configurations with which to deal. When you buy a MAC, you by an
>>>> apple computer with apple's operating system. This
>>>> is not meant to be critical, just to point out differences.
>>>>
>>>> On the Windows side, when there have been Microsoft computers,
>>>> they have never represented a significant market
>>>> share. There are many variations of computer hardware running
>>>> Windows. There are also many different development
>>>> platforms. Some of us have felt that
>>>> Microsoft should have enforced more accessibility than they have
>>>> done with developers, but they have made some
>>>> efforts to do so. They do not seem to have as tight a hold on
>>>> developers as does Apple, though. As a result, there is
>>>> significantly more for Windows screen readers to have to do. With
>>>> the increased use of MSAA, this has
>>>> changed some, though, and it is possible that in years to come the
>>>> two environments may look more similar in terms of
>>>> accessibility. However, you will definitely find that Window-Eyes
>>>> and JFW will do a fair job of working with some
>>>> software that less expensive screen readers will not work with. I
>>>> have a couple of applications that work seamlessly
>>>> with both Window-Eyes and JFW that did not work with System Access
>>>> or NVDA. We have no way of knowing if there
>>>> would be a way for another screen reader to work in ways that
>>>> might be better than Voiceover because it isn't likely
>>>> worth the effort to try to develop such a thing. If Apple can
>>>> really control software development, this won't matter as
>>>> much, though, and they are in a better position to do that given
>>>> the more manageable number of players and the fact
>>>> that Apple generally controls the operating system and the
>>>> hardware. This isn't meant to minimize what apple has done,
>>>> and they deserve credit. It simply means that having VoiceOver
>>>> included with the operating system has a better chance
>>>> of working.
>>>>
>>>> So what are the concers with Apple's software? Well, when Apple
>>>> was very strong in schools, blind kids often had to
>>>> use computers that used Windows to be able to do some of the same
>>>> things their classmates were doing with the MAC
>>>> because the Mac was not accessible at the time. In some cases,
>>>> Microsoft has made significant gains in school
>>>> districts. The school my kids attend is very much a Microsoft
>>>> school system. One concern with the budgets that school
>>>> districts have is that there will be pressure for blind kids to
>>>> use MAC's and VoiceOver instead of the same equipment
>>>> used by other students because VoiceOver is included in the price
>>>> and saves money. Whatever is done, we have to
>>>> be certain that kids get the best access they can to educational
>>>> software. School districts won't necessarily know that
>>>> Microsoft Word for the MAC doesn't work with VoiceOver for
>>>> example. In fairness, this is due to a large degree to
>>>> Microsoft not conforming to the accessibility guidelines apple
>>>> requires, but that doesn't change the results. I'd like some
>>>> understanding of whether the educational software
>>>> used by most kids that use MACS will work as well with VoiceOver
>>>> as similar software does under Windows. Let's be
>>>> clear, though, not all educational software works under Windows,
>>>> either, and I know that. It needs to be noted that we
>>>> continue to push
>>>> Microsoft for more, too, and we push the screen reader developers
>>>> as well.
>>>>
>>>> Finally, what about Windows bias? I frankly think this is a
>>>> distraction that is being used by some Mac advocates to not
>>>> try to deal with criticisms. I know of nobody who seems to love
>>>> windows in the way that MAC people seem to love the
>>>> MAC. This could be well deserved love, I don't know. I do
>>>> recognize that I am biased by features included in screen
>>>> readers who do things based upon fifteen years of trying to give
>>>> this market what it wants. Some of what we don't feel
>>>> we see in VoiceOver has more to do with our existing screen
>>>> readers than with Windows. Much of what we have
>>>> grown used to actually began with the more advanced DOS screen
>>>> readers. Still, just because something has been
>>>> done a certain way does not mean it is being done as well as it
>>>> could be. Nevertheless, I find it somewhat frustrating
>>>> when I listen to some of the podcasts on this issue to see that
>>>> something VoiceOver does not do is portrayed as a
>>>> feature rather than explaining why it might not be possible. On
>>>> the other hand, we have to be careful as Windows users
>>>> not to jump to conclusions. Some of what Windows screen readers
>>>> must do to make software accessible through
>>>> scripting involves manipulating the mouse and simulating mouse
>>>> clicks while the MAC and handle some events by
>>>> manipulating the software being run through operating system
>>>> mechanisms. Some solutions that we might see as less
>>>> reliable under Windows may in fact be very reliable under the Mac
>>>> operating system and VoiceOver. We need to realize
>>>> that the TextEdit program is not a text editor as we know NotePad
>>>> to be, it is more of a word processor like WordPad
>>>> and perhaps more. Comparing TextEdit to Microsoft Word as our
>>>> article did is not fair either, though.There are probably
>>>> other conclusions to which we have jumped based upon our
>>>> experience in Windows, and we need to be open to that.
>>>> However, if VoiceOver does not do something that we have become
>>>> accustomed to, an explanation of why it doesn't
>>>> seems more reasonable to me than to have our questions written off
>>>> as a Windows bias as has been done on some of
>>>> the Podcasts.
>>>>
>>>> Beyond the Braille Monitor article, we need some real discussion
>>>> and real information. How about some
>>>> constructive discussion so that we can make both the Apple and the
>>>> Microsoft environments work better for us while
>>>> recognizing the efforts that have already been made.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, 25 Jul 2009 14:55:10 -0500, Kevin Fjelsted wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The NFB article is located at
>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/ndplsk
>>>>> I recommend that you also read a review of that article at
>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/l2samj
>>>>
>>>>> -Kevin
>>>>
>>>>> On 7/25/09, albert griffith <albertgriffith at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Kevin, I'm definitely purchasing a new machine in the next
>>>> couple >> of
>>>>>> months and I'm seriously considering a Mac. I'd like to read
>>>> the NFB
>>>>>> articles of which you speak with all their inaccuracies but I
>>>> don't >> know
>>>>>> where to locate them. Can you tell me where to go to read
>>>> them? I >> don't
>>>>>> need an exact URL just the general area will do. thanks
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>
>>>> ] >> On
>>>>>> Behalf Of Kevin Fjelsted
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 1:50 PM
>>>>>> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>>>>>>
>>>>>> VoiceOver is absolutely awesome. A superb resource for reading
>>>> details
>>>>>> from a community perspective is http://www.lioncourt.com.
>>>>>> I thhink that the exciting thing about VoiceOver is that the
>>>> stars are
>>>>>> aligned for us. 1) Apple is making record profits and is applying
>>>>>> resources in support of VoiceOver access across there entire
>>>> product
>>>>>> line including mobile devices. The fact that the NFB technology
>>>> center
>>>>>> chooses to publish inaccuracies and propaganda
>>>>>> which is so misleading must mean that the existing companies like
>>>>>> Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to rally
>>>> resources to
>>>>>> quash VoiceOver usage. When ever we see established organizations
>>>>>> becoming defensive it is time to really dig under the covers
>>>> and ask
>>>>>> the reasons why. In my opinion every blind person who relies on
>>>>>> accessibility technology for computers and mobile devices needs
>>>> to
>>>>>> look at VoiceOver as well as the other technologies and
>>>> proactively
>>>>>> push the envelope so that we can create momentum for
>>>> transparency. My
>>>>>> question is, why aren't all of the vendors emulating the
>>>> approach of
>>>>>> VoiceOver, which is to have built in accessibility to the
>>>> device out
>>>>>> of the box without charging extra? WHen I can pay $190 for a cell
>>>>>> phone that has built in accessibility I find that amazing
>>>> compared to
>>>>>> spending money for a cell phone and then having to turn around
>>>> and buy
>>>>>> a 3rd party access solution that in many cases only works half
>>>> baked.
>>>>>> Not only do I get a cell phone for $190 but I get all the built
>>>> in
>>>>>> apps talking clock, calculator, maps, weather forecasting, text
>>>>>> messaging, address book management, calendaring including
>>>> syncing with
>>>>>> other calendars. For years blind people have taken the position
>>>> that
>>>>>> touch screens are the enemy and that we can't use them. Yet the
>>>> IPhone
>>>>>> with VoiceOver is totally dependent on the touch screen. I do
>>>>>> everything with the touch screen look at email, update my
>>>> calendar,
>>>>>> make phone calls,.... -Kevin Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 10:26 AM,
>>>>>> tunecollector<tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> This subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but
>>>> has >>> anyone
>>>>>> used
>>>>>>> it more intensively since then? Is it ready for prime
>>>> time? What >>> are
>>>>>> its
>>>>>>> drawbacks.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> .
>>>>>> com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Kevin Fjelsted
>>>>>> B Harris, Inc.
>>>>>> http://www.bharrisinc.com
>>>>>> kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
>>>>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
>>>>>> Phone: 612.424.7333 EX. 301
>>>>>> Direct: 612.424.7332
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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