[gui-talk] [Bulk] Re: Voiceover

Mike Arrigo n0oxy at charter.net
Sun Jul 26 22:17:30 UTC 2009 

Hi, I just meant that it doesn't read everything in a random order,  
the page is presented the way you would expect.
On Jul 26, 2009, at 2:15 PM, tunecollector wrote:

> What do you mean that it is presented  in the right order?  What's  
> the right
> order?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk- 
> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Mike Arrigo
> Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 12:08 PM
> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
> Subject: [Bulk] Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>
> Well, the information is presented in the right order, it's not
> jumbled the way it would be if you read the screen with the mouse
> cursor if that makes any sense.
> On Jul 26, 2009, at 1:55 PM, albert griffith wrote:
>
>> Having the latitude to hear just what you want can be a real curse.
>> Consider the difference between simple document presentation and
>> screen
>> layout when surfing the internet.  Using the screen layout shows you
>> everything on the screen just as it's been designed to be seen but
>> it raises
>> havoc with efforts to browse efficiently in most cases.  I'm glad
>> Freedom
>> Scientific gives me the choices but I find it's generally more
>> efficient to
>> let them determine how data is presented.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-
>> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Mike Arrigo
>> Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 9:46 AM
>> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>>
>> Well, at the beginning of each section, it says in Windows, this is
>> how things work. That should never have been there as the way windows
>> does things is makes o difference in this case. I would say the main
>> difference between voice over and windows screen readers can be  
>> summed
>> up this way. In windows, the screen reader usually automatically
>> indicates what you need to focus on. On the mac, the information is
>> still all available to you, however, voice over does not decide what
>> should be spoken. You use the voice over cursor keys to indicate what
>> you want read. If you want a progress bar automatically announced for
>> example, you can set your voice over cursor on it and voice over will
>> continue to read it. When you've heard enough, simply move the cursor
>> to another item. Yes, this does mean that there is more navigation
>> involved in using the mac, no question about that. However, this
>> allows the end user to decide what they want spoken instead of the
>> computer making those decisions. Neither approach is better, they're
>> just different.
>> On Jul 25, 2009, at 9:51 PM, albert griffith wrote:
>>
>>> Mike, I didn't think the author of the article was knocking the
>>> screen
>>> reader because it didn't perform like windows but that it was too
>>> stroke
>>> intensive and often didn't offer enough verbosity for adequate
>>> feedback.
>>> While Apple's product doesn't need to imitate Windows it should  
>>> offer
>>> assistance that's convenient and adequate to the assigned task.  It
>>> appears
>>> too many of the protocols required to complete tasks are lacking in
>>> one or
>>> both of these critical elements.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-
>>> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Mike Arrigo
>>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 7:48 PM
>>> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>>>
>>> That was the big mistake of this article, the concept seemed to be,
>>> windows does it this way, and if the mac does it differently, it's a
>>> problem. There are several similarities between the mac and windows,
>>> but expecting the mac to work the exact same way is a recipe for
>>> frustration. In my pod casts on blindcooltech, I try my best to make
>>> comparisons when they're appropriate, but also remind the listener
>>> that it's not windows, and therefore will not behave the same.
>>> On Jul 25, 2009, at 2:24 PM, Ray Foret jr wrote:
>>>
>>>> Granted, Voice over is well worth serious consideration; but,  
>>>> Kevin,
>>>> there's
>>>> no need to get unpleasant about it.  The NFB's perspective was
>>>> written from
>>>> a Windows users point of view because that's what most blind
>>>> computer users
>>>> are familiar with.  Like it or not, this is so.  I always hear  
>>>> Voice
>>>> Over
>>>> users say "You can't compare the Mac to Windows.".  Fair enough.
>>>> So, in
>>>> that case, why not truly help us Windows users get to know Voice
>>>> Over better
>>>> instead of just criticizing us just because we do what it is human
>>>> nature to
>>>> do; compare one thing to another.  I grant you that the Mac is  
>>>> worth
>>>> serious
>>>> consideration; and, If I wasn't still paying for this lap top, I
>>>> would
>>>> indeed very seriously look at Voice Over.  Let me give you an
>>>> example of how
>>>> Voice Over users can be more helpful.  In the NFB article, it is
>>>> stated that
>>>> when you press the space bar to check or uncheck items on a web
>>>> page, Voice
>>>> Over does not tell you whether an item is checked or unchecked.  I
>>>> believe
>>>> this is true; however, there is another factor.  The article then
>>>> goes on to
>>>> incorrectly state that there is no way without fumbling around, to
>>>> determine
>>>> whether an item is checked or not.  As I understand it, there is a
>>>> special
>>>> Voice over key command which is used to check or uncheck items on
>>>> web pages.
>>>> When this key stroke is used, Voice over will tell you at once
>>>> whether an
>>>> item is checked or unchecked.  Now, it's quite clear to me that the
>>>> fellow
>>>> reviewing Voice Over for the NFB did not know this fact.  but, I  
>>>> ask
>>>> you,
>>>> why did not some voice over users help him with the trouble he was
>>>> having?
>>>> Why did the NFB not seek help from Voice Over users?  Well, I think
>>>> I can
>>>> answer that one.  He wanted to deal with Voice Over from the stand
>>>> point of
>>>> a strictly out of the box experience.  IN other words, his logic  
>>>> was
>>>> this.
>>>> "Let me see what I can learn about Voice Over strictly from the  
>>>> help
>>>> and
>>>> what ever documentation I can access on my own.".  Fair enough;  
>>>> but,
>>>> let's
>>>> think a bit.  How many Windows users do you know who rely just on
>>>> the built
>>>> in help and what documentation they can read on their own?  Well, I
>>>> sure
>>>> don't know too many myself.  Most Windows users go to one another
>>>> for help
>>>> and we help each other.  Why, therefore, did the NFB fellow not  
>>>> seek
>>>> help in
>>>> the same way from Mac users?  A fair question I think.  Frankly, I
>>>> am
>>>> perfectly willing to take a look at Voice over, not so much from  
>>>> the
>>>> NFB
>>>> stand point; nor from a Voice Over defense point of view.  My look
>>>> will be
>>>> based a bit on both and I will be wanting to get very objective
>>>> information.
>>>> I don't think I can count on either the NFB or Voice Over devotees
>>>> to be
>>>> truly objective; and, therefore, the best strategy I can think of  
>>>> is
>>>> to take
>>>> the best of both and make your own decision.
>>>>
>>>> Sincerely,
>>>> The Constantly BAREFOOTED Ray
>>>>
>>>> "Old friend, what are you looking for?  After those many years
>>>> abroad you
>>>> come With images you tended Under foreign skies Far away from your
>>>> own land"
>>>> George Seferis
>>>>
>>>> Phone or Fax::
>>>> +1 (985) 360-3614
>>>> Cell:
>>>> +1 (985) 791-2938
>>>> e-mail:
>>>> rforetjratcomcastdotnet
>>>> Skype Name:
>>>> barefootedray
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Kevin Fjelsted" <kfjelsted at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 12:49 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> VoiceOver is absolutely awesome. A superb resource for reading
>>>> details
>>>> from a community perspective is http://www.lioncourt.com.
>>>> I thhink that the exciting thing about VoiceOver is that the stars
>>>> are
>>>> aligned for us. 1) Apple is making record profits and is applying
>>>> resources in support of  VoiceOver access across there entire
>>>> product
>>>> line including mobile devices. The fact that the NFB technology
>>>> center
>>>> chooses to publish inaccuracies and propaganda
>>>> which is so misleading must mean that the existing companies like
>>>> Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to rally resources
>>>> to
>>>> quash VoiceOver usage. When ever we see established organizations
>>>> becoming defensive it is time to really dig under the covers and  
>>>> ask
>>>> the reasons why. In my opinion every blind person who relies on
>>>> accessibility technology for computers and mobile devices needs to
>>>> look at VoiceOver as well as the other technologies and proactively
>>>> push the envelope so that we can create momentum for transparency.
>>>> My
>>>> question is, why aren't  all of the vendors  emulating the approach
>>>> of
>>>> VoiceOver, which is to have built in accessibility to the device  
>>>> out
>>>> of the box without charging extra? WHen I can pay $190 for a cell
>>>> phone that has built in accessibility I find that amazing compared
>>>> to
>>>> spending money for a cell phone and then having to turn around and
>>>> buy
>>>> a 3rd party access solution that in many cases only works half
>>>> baked.
>>>> Not only do I get a cell phone for $190 but I get all the built in
>>>> apps talking clock, calculator, maps, weather forecasting, text
>>>> messaging, address book management, calendaring including syncing
>>>> with
>>>> other calendars. For years blind people have taken the position  
>>>> that
>>>> touch screens are the enemy and that we can't use them. Yet the
>>>> IPhone
>>>> with VoiceOver is totally dependent on the touch screen. I do
>>>> everything with the touch screen look at email, update my calendar,
>>>> make phone calls,....   -Kevin Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 10:26 AM,
>>>> tunecollector<tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>> This subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has
>>>>> anyone
>>>>> used
>>>>> it more intensively since then? Is it ready for prime time? What
>>>>> are its
>>>>> drawbacks.
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> Kevin Fjelsted
>>>> B Harris, Inc.
>>>> http://www.bharrisinc.com
>>>> kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
>>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
>>>> Phone:   612.424.7333 EX. 301
>>>> Direct:  612.424.7332
>>>>
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