[gui-talk] Voiceover

Sun Jul 26 12:40:34 UTC 2009

	In looking at the Braille Monitor article and VoiceOver and other issues raised, there are a lot of things that 
need to be considered.  The 
article, even with its acknowledged inaccuracies, has a perspective that should be considered, and could result in more 
of us attaining a better understanding of both environments.  When listening to the two 
hour pod cast on this article, I was surprised at the number of times that the creators noted that a point made by the 
article 
was worth considering.  I also noted occasions when the article said something was not accessible when it actually 
was, but far from simple.  There were inaccuracies, though, and while there were useful aspects of the article's 
perspective, the perspective was not clearly explained.  I want to lay a few thoughts out here in hopes that it provokes 
some reasonable discussion if that is possible.  If we are to truly understand and evaluate VoiceOver, we need 
information.

In reading the Braille Monitor article, one should not think of it as a complete evaluation of VoiceOver, even though that 
is what it implies.  Rather, one should think of it as the experiences of a Windows user trying to learn the VoiceOver 
software using primarily the documentation that comes with the MAC.  A Windows user who switches to the MAC should 
take from this article that they need to talk to other MAC users and be prepared for doing some things differently.  Also, 
anyone looking at VoiceOver should be aware of the fact that there will soon be a new version of the MAC operating 
system and this could bring with it improvements to VoiceOver.  However, having said that, it is clear that VoiceOver is 
certainly ready for prime time, to answer the original questioner, but one should take the time before switching to a MAC 
to be sure it will do the specific things one wants done.  This is just as true if one were to remain in Windows and switch 
screen readers.  If you use a specific piece of software or you do something that most people may not do, you need to 
be certain you will be able to do it after you switch, and again, I mean whether you switch to a MAC or whether you 
switch to a different screen reader..

There are some legitimate concerns with accessibility built into the operating system as it now stands, but time will tell if it 
works out.  There are also some very significant differences between the MAC environment and the Windows 
environment that makes accessibility simpler on the MAC than in Windows that affects the solution in each environment.  
The fact is that one reason that accessibility is not built into the Windows operating system in the form of a full-featured 
screen reader is that many of us who have had experience in this field were not convinced that Microsoft would do as 
good a job, especially when prioritizing accessibility to other products and access to their own products, as would the 
existing screen reader developers.  I still firmly believe that having a free Windows screen reader with one company 
behind it, in effect forcing the others out of business, would have resulted in my not being able to do some of what I've 
been able to do on my job.  It is also my feeling, although somewhat unsubstantiated, that Microsoft may not have been 
anxious to take on such a task.  According to what I heard a few years ago from persons working for Apple, the feeling 
is that Apple is in a stronger position than Microsoft to encourage or even force people developing software for the MAC 
to build in to their software those things which VoiceOver needs to function.  This is the case because there are fewer 
development platforms for writing MAC software and Apple has a tighter relationship with those who want software to run 
on the MAC.  This means that more of what is needed for accessibility can be put into the software or development tools 
leaving VoiceOver with a better interface to work with.  In addition, there are a relatively limited number of computer 
configurations with which to deal.  When you buy a MAC, you by an apple computer with apple's operating system.  This 
is not meant to be critical, just to point out differences.

On the Windows side, when there have been Microsoft computers, they have never represented a significant market 
share.  There are many variations of computer hardware running Windows.  There are also many different development 
platforms.  Some of us have felt that 
Microsoft should have enforced more accessibility than they have done with developers, but they have made some 
efforts to do so.  They do not seem to have as tight a hold on developers as does Apple, though.  As a result, there is 
significantly more for Windows screen readers to have to do.  With the increased use of MSAA, this has 
changed some, though, and it is possible that in years to come the two environments may look more similar in terms of 
accessibility.  However, you will definitely find that Window-Eyes and JFW will do a fair job of working with some 
software that less expensive screen readers will not work with.  I have a couple of applications that work seamlessly 
with both Window-Eyes and JFW that did not work with System Access or NVDA.  We have no way of knowing if there 
would be a way for another screen reader to work in ways that might be better than Voiceover because it isn't likely 
worth the effort to try to develop such a thing.  If Apple can really control software development, this won't matter as 
much, though, and they are in a better position to do that given the more manageable number of players and the fact 
that Apple generally controls the operating system and the hardware.  This isn't meant to minimize what apple has done, 
and they deserve credit.  It simply means that having VoiceOver included with the operating system has a better chance 
of working.

So what are the concers with Apple's software?  Well, when Apple was very strong in schools, blind kids often had to 
use computers that used Windows to be able to do some of the same things their classmates were doing with the MAC 
because the Mac was not accessible at the time.  In some cases, Microsoft has made significant gains in school 
districts.  The school my kids attend is very much a Microsoft school system.  One concern with the budgets that school 
districts have is that there will be pressure for blind kids to use MAC's and VoiceOver instead of the same equipment 
used by other students  because VoiceOver is included in the price and saves money.  Whatever is done, we have to 
be certain that kids get the best access they can to educational software.  School districts won't necessarily know that 
Microsoft Word for the MAC doesn't work with VoiceOver for example.  In fairness, this is due to a large degree to 
Microsoft not conforming to the accessibility guidelines apple requires, but that doesn't change the results.  I'd like some 
understanding of whether the educational software 
used by most kids that use MACS will work as well with VoiceOver as similar software does under Windows.  Let's be 
clear, though, not all educational software works under Windows, either, and I know that.  It needs to be noted that we 
continue to push 
Microsoft for more, too, and we push the screen reader developers as well.

Finally, what about Windows bias?  I frankly think this is a distraction that is being used by some Mac advocates to not 
try to deal with criticisms.  I know of nobody who seems to love windows in the way that MAC people seem to love the 
MAC.  This could be well deserved love, I don't know.  I do recognize that I am biased by features included in screen 
readers who do things based upon fifteen years of trying to give this market what it wants.  Some of what we don't feel 
we see in VoiceOver has more to do with our existing screen readers than with Windows.  Much of what we have 
grown used to actually began with the more advanced DOS screen readers.  Still, just because something has been 
done a certain way does not mean it is being done as well as it could be.  Nevertheless, I find it somewhat frustrating 
when I listen to some of the podcasts on this issue to see that something VoiceOver does not do is portrayed as a 
feature rather than explaining why it might not be possible.  On the other hand, we have to be careful as Windows users 
not to jump to conclusions.  Some of what Windows screen readers must do to make software accessible through 
scripting involves manipulating the mouse and simulating mouse clicks while the MAC and handle some events by 
manipulating the software being run through operating system mechanisms.  Some solutions that we might see as less 
reliable under Windows may in fact be very reliable under the Mac operating system and VoiceOver.  We need to realize 
that the TextEdit program is not a text editor as we know NotePad to be, it is more of a word processor like WordPad 
and perhaps more.  Comparing TextEdit to Microsoft Word as our article did is not fair either, though.There are probably 
other conclusions to which we have jumped based upon our experience in Windows, and we need to be open to that.  
However, if VoiceOver does not do something that we have become accustomed to, an explanation of why it doesn't 
seems more reasonable to me than to have our questions written off as a Windows bias as has been done on some of 
the Podcasts.  

Beyond the Braille Monitor article, we need some real discussion and real information.  How about some 
constructive discussion so that we can make both the Apple and the Microsoft environments work better for us while 
recognizing the efforts that have already been made.

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

On Sat, 25 Jul 2009 14:55:10 -0500, Kevin Fjelsted wrote:

>The NFB article is located at
> http://tinyurl.com/ndplsk
>I recommend that you also read a review of that article at
>http://tinyurl.com/l2samj

>-Kevin

>On 7/25/09, albert griffith <albertgriffith at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> Hi Kevin, I'm definitely purchasing a new machine in the next couple of
>> months and I'm seriously considering a Mac.  I'd like to read the NFB
>> articles of which you speak with all their inaccuracies but I don't know
>> where to locate them.  Can you tell me where to go to read them?  I don't
>> need an exact URL just the general area will do.  thanks
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Kevin Fjelsted
>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 1:50 PM
>> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Voiceover
>>
>> VoiceOver is absolutely awesome. A superb resource for reading details
>> from a community perspective is http://www.lioncourt.com.
>> I thhink that the exciting thing about VoiceOver is that the stars are
>> aligned for us. 1) Apple is making record profits and is applying
>> resources in support of  VoiceOver access across there entire product
>> line including mobile devices. The fact that the NFB technology center
>> chooses to publish inaccuracies and propaganda
>> which is so misleading must mean that the existing companies like
>> Freedom Scientific are running scared and trying to rally resources to
>> quash VoiceOver usage. When ever we see established organizations
>> becoming defensive it is time to really dig under the covers and ask
>> the reasons why. In my opinion every blind person who relies on
>> accessibility technology for computers and mobile devices needs to
>> look at VoiceOver as well as the other technologies and proactively
>> push the envelope so that we can create momentum for transparency. My
>> question is, why aren't  all of the vendors  emulating the approach of
>> VoiceOver, which is to have built in accessibility to the device out
>> of the box without charging extra? WHen I can pay $190 for a cell
>> phone that has built in accessibility I find that amazing compared to
>> spending money for a cell phone and then having to turn around and buy
>> a 3rd party access solution that in many cases only works half baked.
>> Not only do I get a cell phone for $190 but I get all the built in
>> apps talking clock, calculator, maps, weather forecasting, text
>> messaging, address book management, calendaring including syncing with
>> other calendars. For years blind people have taken the position that
>> touch screens are the enemy and that we can't use them. Yet the IPhone
>> with VoiceOver is totally dependent on the touch screen. I do
>> everything with the touch screen look at email, update my calendar,
>> make phone calls,....   -Kevin Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 10:26 AM,
>> tunecollector<tunecollector at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> This subject was discussed when Voiceover first came out but has anyone
>> used
>>> it more intensively since then?  Is it ready for prime time?    What are
>> its
>>> drawbacks.
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Kevin Fjelsted
>> B Harris, Inc.
>> http://www.bharrisinc.com
>> kevin.fjelsted at bharrisinc.com
>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfjelsted
>> Phone:   612.424.7333 EX. 301
>> Direct:  612.424.7332
>>