[gui-talk] Kindle books

Thu Dec 11 15:44:47 UTC 2008

I'm not suggesting an instructor tell students they can't achieve high
speeds I'm saying students should be given some idea of what they can
expect.  I'm not wanting to discourage students but inform them.  Blind
readers are limited by the differences in the mechanics of reading Braille
verses reading print.  The hand is not quicker than the eye.

-----Original Message-----
From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Cindy Handel
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 8:31 AM
To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books

Albert,

I agree that many, if not most, Braille readers aren't as fast as they could

be.  But, I don't believe that a prospective Braille student should be told 
that they can't achieve a respectable Braille reading speed.  This is 
setting them up for failure, before they even begin.  I believe they should 
be taught Braille and encouraged to read and practice, in order to achieve 
and maintain their reading speed.  If a person goes to a Braille class and 
the instructor prefaces the class with the statement, "I'm going to teach 
you Braille, but you won't be able to read very fast, because most people 
don't," what motivation would the student have to learn Braille?

Cindy
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "albert griffith" <albertgriffith at sbcglobal.net>
To: "'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 7:04 AM
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books

I had a trained and dedicated teacher and most of the students still read
braille at speeds considerably slower than their sighted counterparts.  This
doesn't mean braille shouldn't be taught.  However, people new to braille
should have an informed perspective on what kind of results they might
expect.  I read 200 words per minute which is quite fast for a braille
reader but I felt there was something lacking in me because most of my
sighted friends could finish books much quicker than I.  I read little
braille now because what I want to read isn't produced in that format.

-----Original Message-----
From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Cindy Handel
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 11:45 PM
To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books

I agree that each person is an individual.  But, it seems that there are a
lot of excuses about why people can't read Braille.  Maybe, if teachers
would just start to teach it to students, a lot more people would learn;
rather than finding excuses why they can't do it.

Cindy
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "tribble" <lauraeaves at yahoo.com>
To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 8:28 PM
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books

the point is that each person  is an individual with his/her own needs, and
not every blind person has numbness in the fingers, like many diabetics.
You have to introduce braille, like any coping mechanism, on a case by case
basis.
--le

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Baracco, Andrew W" <Andrew.Baracco at va.gov>
To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 12:27 PM
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books

Rapid Braille reading has been achieved by many who learned it as
children, but the number of children who are blind and not otherwise
disabled is low indeed. The vast majority of people who lose their sight
are over 65, and often have other conditions such as arthritis and
diabetes.  For many, no amount of training will result in being able to
read Braille at a fast rate.

Andy

-----Original Message-----
From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of tribble
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 10:37 PM
To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books

I think one of the reasons it is hard for older persons to learn to read
braille is developing the sensitivity in the fingers to recognize the
dot patterns.
It is easy for a sighted person to learn to read braille visually.  If
that person becomes blind, it is much harder -- even with no added
disability -- for that person to read the same dot patterns with the
fintertips.
I learned braille at age 13 and have only used it for labels and speech
outlines and such as I was always able to read magnified print. So I
never practiced the braille at that early age when I think I could have
adapted more easily.
Anyway, I am still working on it, but again, technology has come to the
rescue with screen readers that read at ridiculous speeds, and I have
had no problem learning to adapt to that -- so why is it so hard to read
braille?
Practice practice practice... ugh.
I was a math major back in college and have wanted to go back and pick
that up again. I chose that major because it didn't require a large
volume of reading -- you can pack more in a couple pages of math symbols
than in 40 pages in some other subject. But alas, braille math is a
beast, almost as bad as braille music, and tactile math is still very
much a work in progress -- there is an ongoing discussion of this on the
blindmath list on nfbnet.org John Gardener from ViewPlus, who make the
Tiger braille embossers, sent me on request a copy of some pages of math
created bya system called DotsPlus, that essentially mixes Nemeth style
math braille code with tactile graphical representations of things like
the fraction line or the square root symbol, or the integral sign.  This
puts the braille in a form that is much more similar to the printed
equations in math texts.  The only drawback is that you have to have a
Tiger embosser to print it and there is no refreshable display that can
display it.

Anyway, that is one thing I've been looking into as  I feel it is a
shame to just let all my math background go to waste, and I think it is
important for math education for blind students to be much less arduous.
Transcribing math into braille is difficult, but hopefully emerging
technology can make it easier.
--le

Happy reading all.
--le

----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 4:53 PM
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books

Doug,

I would add one more thing to your well written note.  People who learn
to
read later in life, whether print or braille, tend to not normally
achieve
the kind of reading
speeds that are achieved by people who learn to read at a young age.
This
also contributes to reducing the average reading speed of braille
readers in
a manner
that is disproportionate to people reading print since blindness hits
many
people as adults.  One must also consider the higher percentage of
persons
with other
disabilities.

What this means is that some people probably do have to evaluate the
role of
braille in their lives.  Older blind adults will probably not achieve
the
kind of reading
speeds that would be useful for reading a novel unless they decide that
it
is a real priority.  However, in some cases, learning braille to read
labels
or to do certain
kinds of detail work such as mathematics or programming has much less to
do
with average reading speed.

I tend to agree that braille is not the same as reading print, but it is

closer to reading print than is recorded material because of the
conveying
information at multiple
levels at once, test, spelling, and punctuation.  Even with DAISY, I
find
that I can scan an article in braille faster unless the DAISY structure
is
very consistent and at
the paragraph level.  Print does allow the eye to be drawn to
information
the author has defined as important in ways that braille can't.  Font
size
and style as well as
color provide ways of defining information in a way that provides
multiple
ways of conveying information that is not as convenient in braille.

I can see reasons for adults who do not know braille to evaluate their
needs, but I really believe that braille is a must for kids who are
blind if
they cannot see well
enough to read print well.  I am not saying that they may not read both,

that can work, too.

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

On Tue, 09 Dec 2008 17:20:37 -0500, Doug Lee wrote:

>Let's be careful to distinguish facts from drawn conclusions, if we
>plan to address this Braille versus print speed issue here...

>Fact: On average, print readers read faster than Braille readers at
>this time.

>Fact: On average, blind people that read Braille don't read it as fast
>as 250 words per minute.

>If anyone doubts those two, I'm all ears; but I acknowledge them as
>known facts.

>Now, as to what they mean...

>Those facts do not, I say with emphasis, NOT, mean that Braille is
>slow by definition, due to mechanics or anything else.  That's just
>one possible explanation of the facts, and I think the very existence
>of people that read Braille quickly rules out that explanation.  We
>have proven that Braille can be read at up to 400 words per minute by
>having people actually do it.

>So why so few such examples of fast Braille readers?  I think it's
>because there's little emphasis on teaching fast Braille reading
>nowadays.  That has nothing to do with Braille's effectiveness as a
>tool.

>The reason I am making such an effort to separate fact from conclusion
>is that not doing so has, historically, been the root of a number of
>famous misunderstandings, discriminations, and outright denials of
>individual and collective success.  Recall the many arguments waged
>over race versus level of education:  We know by now that color of
>skin does not affect ability to learn, but in our history, this
>obvious truth was not always accepted.  Recall the 70% (or greater)
>unemployment level of blind people:  We know that blindness does not
>directly stop us from working.  Even consider that reading speeds and
>even the ability to read at all is much lower in certain countries
>than here:  We know that this is not due to some mysterious
>geomagnetic interferance causing those countries' citizens to fail
>reading tests. :)

>I assert that the reason Braille appears slow by average example is
>that it is, by average example, not taught sufficiently to produce a
>different result.  I assert that this is the same sort of cause one
>should see for the other examples I just gave:  imbalance caused by
>lack of opportunity.  I assert these things, and I wonder, can I call
>these "facts" yet, or are they still in dispute?

>On Tue, Dec 09, 2008 at 03:56:47PM -0500, albert griffith wrote:
>While they are some real fast Braille readers here's an example to put
the
>issue in perspective.  In 1980 Arkansas Enterprises For The Blind
trained
>people to work for both the social Security Administration and the IRS.
To
>qualify people had to read Braille at 100 words per minute and at least
a
>third of the applicants didn't meet the minimum standard.  All of the
>applicants had high school diplomas and at least half were college
degreed.
>The mechanics of reading Braille are quite slow by comparison to print
>reading for most Braille users.  Of course there will be exceptions.

>-----Original Message-----
>From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On
>Behalf Of Baracco, Andrew W
>Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 12:03 PM
>To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books

>The fastest Braille reader might be able to keep up with the average
>print reader.  As was said before, it's a whole different experience.
>The Braille reader can only perceive what is under his or her fingers.
>The sighted reader can perceive the whole page at once.

>Andy
>

>-----Original Message-----
>From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>On Behalf Of Cindy Handel
>Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 6:50 PM
>To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books

>Well, reading print may be fast for some sighted people.  But, I've
>known blind people who have been able to read Braille so quickly that
>they couldn't talk fast enough to keep up with their Braille reading.
>So, it all depends on the time you devote to it and the technique you
>use to read, either print or Braille.

>Cindy
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "tribble" <lauraeaves at yahoo.com>
>To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 4:15 PM
>Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books

>The nice thing about reading visually is to be able to see spellings
and
>page layout and pictures, if any. Also, you can mark passages or write
>notes
>in the margins.
>But is it faster? I think it is actually -- I don't speak for myself as
>I
>never had good reading speed due to my declining vision, but I know
>people
>who polish off books in a couple of days that take me a lot longer
>reading
>either online or listening to a recording or DAISY book.
>I think DAISY is the best thing that has come along in a while. now if
>the
>volunteers at bookshare would use the features a bit more effectively,
>it
>would make navigating the book easier. I mean, sometimes an entire book
>has
>only one navigation element marking the start of the book. So all you
>really
>have is your current reading position, which lasts from session to
>session,
>and the start of the book to jump to, and that's all.  Very terse
>markup.
>oh well -- One of these days I'm going to scan and markup a book and
>submit
>it to bookshare and then I will be able to complain legitimately.
>Happy reading.
>--le

>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Baracco, Andrew W" <Andrew.Baracco at va.gov>
>To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 12:05 PM
>Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books

>Many sighted people who I know enjoy reading visually, and do not like
>to be read to.  They may listen to an audio book while driving,
cooking,
>etc., but generally prefer the experience of reading visually.

>Andy

>-----Original Message-----
>From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>On Behalf Of Joel Deutsch
>Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 9:48 AM
>To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books

>Cindy,

>This portable device, the Kindle, wasn't developed in the spirit of
what
>you and I think of as portable devices to play writing to us. It's a
>different concept, meant to hold many books that can be called up by
the
>sighted reader and looked at. The effect is like having one book-sized
>plastic device that sort of looks like a real book, which a person can
>hold and read the text on the screen. Those who have really reported
>enjoying the Kindle, for instance, have reported taking them on long
>airplane journeys and having the ability to read from any of the many
>books that they may have purchased online and loaded onto the device.
>They would not have preferred to be listening to somebody reading one
or
>another of those books. They like to read print, and listening to audio
>literature may be for them at best an occasional convenience for times
>when they have their hands full and are otherwise occupied, say while
>driving a car or exercising at the gym.
>itotherwsie literatture wo7uld They are simply reading the print, just
>as if it were a real book. It has not been recorded for them by a
>reader. If they wanted audio literature, themselves, and they sometimes
>do, they'd get the recorded stuff from audible  and other vendors, just
>as we do, although without the issues of blind accessibility to the
>controls of the playback units.

>Anyway, as the list of book titles Amazon produces in Kindle form along
>with the print books of the same titles, this list may overlap with
some
>of the recorded titles we are accustomed to seeing offered, but there
>will be a lot more books that haven't wound up produced in commercial
>audio or by the NLS.
>If I could read visually, I'd at least consider this device, although
>I'd think of it as a bit of a luxury. But its list of titles is likely
>to be a lot more inclusive, and a good bit less dependent on nothing
but
>sales ranking, than the titles that are chosen for audio production,
and
>which we can already get for ourselves. It's a unique new book
marketing
>model, not that easily evaluated or understood in blind book terms.

>Hope that helps.
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Cindy Handel" <cindy425 at verizon.net>
>To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 8:45 AM
>Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books

>I guess I just don't understand, with all the other sources for books
>out
>there, which are available to us, why try to make this particular
device
>accessible.  If it was the only portable means of reading books, I
could
>understand why we'd want to have access.  But, there's so much out
>there,
>already.

>Cindy
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
>To: <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 11:01 PM
>Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books

>Like the Everly Brothers sang: "Dream; dream dream dream!"

>Mike

>----- Original Message -----
>From: Ted Shelly <tshelly at optonline.net>
>To: 'Ationfbnet GUI Talk Mailing List' <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>Date: 2008/12/05 15:33:27
>Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books

>>
>>
>> What Amazon needs to do is to make their Kindle book format an open
>> standard
>> that other device manufactures can build into their products.  If for
>> instance the iphone could use the books they would sell a lot more
>books.
>> Then devices for the blind like the Victor Stream could build that
>into
>> their products as well.  This would open up a huge new source of
>reading
>> material for us.  I imagine this will happen eventually, but it may
>take a
>> while.  Amazon is not an easy company to contact, but someone
>mentioned
>> they
>> had a line to the Kindle developer.  Maybe we could start a
>> letter/every-mail
>> writing campaign.
>>
>> Ted
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
[mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>On
>> Behalf Of Cindy Handel
>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 9:54 PM
>> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>>
>> What would be the advantage of adding text to speech to the Kindle
>Reader;
>> especially since we already have the Victor Stream?  The reader,
>itself,
>> is
>> already more expensive than the Stream.  Adding speech would increase
>the
>> cost.
>>
>> Cindy
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Loy" <loyrg2845 at gmail.com>
>> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 7:10 PM
>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>>
>>
>> I corresponded with the developer of this product and asked if it
>would be
>> possible to add text to speech to this product and he replied that he
>> would
>> look into it.
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Baracco, Andrew W" <Andrew.Baracco at va.gov>
>> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:47 AM
>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>>
>>
>> It is the sighted guy's equivalant of the Victor Stream.  The display
>> looks just like a printed book, to give a familiar frame of
reference.
>>
>> Andy
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
[mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> On Behalf Of Cindy Handel
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 2:21 PM
>> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>>
>> Well, I think the idea is that you can purchase and download books
>from
>> Amazon; put them on this reader and take several books along with
>> y...j as we do with the Very Rather Stream.  I'm sure it is the
>software,
>> in the reader, which makes it work.  But, you have to have the little
>> screen and controls to read the books.
>>
>> Cindy
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "tribble" <lauraeaves at yahoo.com>
>> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 3:30 PM
>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>>
>>
>> so apparently you need to have this hardware reader in order to read
a
>> kindle book, which is in some proprietary format? I would think there
>> would
>> be software that could do the job just as well...
>> Thanks.
>> -comle
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Cindy Handel" <cindy425 at verizon.net>
>> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 5:38 AM
>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>>
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Kindle is a hardware reader.  It looks like a book, but has a screen
>> instead
>> of pages.  There are controls to allow the reader to turn pages and
to
>> move
>> from one book to another.  That's really about all I know about it.
>> But, it
>> has no speech and is not accessible.  It's also more expensive than
>the
>> Victor Stream.
>>
>> Cindy
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "tribble" <lauraeaves at yahoo.com>
>> To: "Multiple recipients of NFBnet GUI-TALK Mailing List"
>> <gui-talk at NFBnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 11:49 PM
>> Subject: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>>
>>
>> Hi all -- Has anyone had experience good or bad reading books on
>Kindle
>> sold
>> by amazon?
>> Is Kindle a software reader, or a hardware device like an ipod?
>> Is it accessible? I'd like to get an armload of books but since I
>would
>> be
>> scanning them anyway, I would prefer getting them in some electronic
>> format.
>> What is Kindle anyway?
>> I guess I'll go back to amazon and read up on it, but I wanted to ask
>> the
>> list first.
>> Thanks in advance.
>> Oh, and the books aren't on bookshare -- I checked.
>> -comle
>>
>>
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>-- 
>Doug Lee                 dgl at dlee.org
http://www.dlee.org
>SSB BART Group           doug.lee at ssbbartgroup.com
>http://www.ssbbartgroup.com
>"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds
>new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' ('I found it!') but rather 'hmm....
>that's funny...'"  --   Isaac Asimov

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