[gui-talk] Kindle books

tribble lauraeaves at yahoo.com
Thu Dec 11 01:25:03 UTC 2008 

now that's disgusting -- I thing there are blind vets on several of the 
lists I'm on and I believe at least one of them reads braille. I think it 
comes with practice -- today for example, I got the bicentennial of louis 
braille announcement from national braille press and while I was about to 
toss it in the trash rather than struggle with it right now, I took a moment 
to read the first page and I actually read it fast enough that it was rather 
interesting. If I applied myself I do believe I could master a comfortable 
braille reading speed, but where to find the energy and time in my schedule 
to do it is another matter.
But back to the rehab person: I hate when some rehab counselor decides 
against something on behalf of a client that would actually benefit him/her. 
I remember the first time I saw a CCTV.  The rehab guy kept trying to usher 
me out as he deemed that to be inappropriate for my needs.  It was not -- in 
fact, it was exactly what I needed.  I'm glad I had a mom who was willing to 
get me one--(there is a story behind that first cctv, but I won't clutter 
the list here.)
I used that and subsequent cctvs for 24 years with great success and 
enjoyment.  When I was no longer able to use them I donated them to people 
who could.
Off soap box...
Happy reading.
--le


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Baracco, Andrew W" <Andrew.Baracco at va.gov>
To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 10:45 AM
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books


When I interned at a VA blind rehab center, one of my roles was to teach
a method of meditation and relaxation to this group.  I prepared
materials and at my own expense, had them translated into Grade II
Braille.  I had the materials shipped to the center, and because it was
Braille material, it ended up in the office of the Braille instructor.
When I came to work, he asked me who this material was meant for.  I
said it was for the vets.  he said that I had wasted my money because
none of the vets will ever achieve the competence to read that material.

Andy


-----Original Message-----
From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Steve Jacobson
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 2:53 PM
To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books

Doug,

I would add one more thing to your well written note.  People who learn
to read later in life, whether print or braille, tend to not normally
achieve the kind of reading speeds that are achieved by people who learn
to read at a young age.  This also contributes to reducing the average
reading speed of braille readers in a manner that is disproportionate to
people reading print since blindness hits many people as adults.  One
must also consider the higher percentage of persons with other
disabilities.

What this means is that some people probably do have to evaluate the
role of braille in their lives.  Older blind adults will probably not
achieve the kind of reading speeds that would be useful for reading a
novel unless they decide that it is a real priority.  However, in some
cases, learning braille to read labels or to do certain kinds of detail
work such as mathematics or programming has much less to do with average
reading speed.

I tend to agree that braille is not the same as reading print, but it is
closer to reading print than is recorded material because of the
conveying information at multiple levels at once, test, spelling, and
punctuation.  Even with DAISY, I find that I can scan an article in
braille faster unless the DAISY structure is very consistent and at the
paragraph level.  Print does allow the eye to be drawn to information
the author has defined as important in ways that braille can't.  Font
size and style as well as color provide ways of defining information in
a way that provides multiple ways of conveying information that is not
as convenient in braille.

I can see reasons for adults who do not know braille to evaluate their
needs, but I really believe that braille is a must for kids who are
blind if they cannot see well enough to read print well.  I am not
saying that they may not read both, that can work, too.

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

On Tue, 09 Dec 2008 17:20:37 -0500, Doug Lee wrote:

>Let's be careful to distinguish facts from drawn conclusions, if we
>plan to address this Braille versus print speed issue here...

>Fact: On average, print readers read faster than Braille readers at
>this time.

>Fact: On average, blind people that read Braille don't read it as fast
>as 250 words per minute.

>If anyone doubts those two, I'm all ears; but I acknowledge them as
>known facts.

>Now, as to what they mean...

>Those facts do not, I say with emphasis, NOT, mean that Braille is slow

>by definition, due to mechanics or anything else.  That's just one
>possible explanation of the facts, and I think the very existence of
>people that read Braille quickly rules out that explanation.  We have
>proven that Braille can be read at up to 400 words per minute by having

>people actually do it.

>So why so few such examples of fast Braille readers?  I think it's
>because there's little emphasis on teaching fast Braille reading
>nowadays.  That has nothing to do with Braille's effectiveness as a
>tool.

>The reason I am making such an effort to separate fact from conclusion
>is that not doing so has, historically, been the root of a number of
>famous misunderstandings, discriminations, and outright denials of
>individual and collective success.  Recall the many arguments waged
>over race versus level of education:  We know by now that color of skin

>does not affect ability to learn, but in our history, this obvious
>truth was not always accepted.  Recall the 70% (or greater)
>unemployment level of blind people:  We know that blindness does not
>directly stop us from working.  Even consider that reading speeds and
>even the ability to read at all is much lower in certain countries than

>here:  We know that this is not due to some mysterious geomagnetic
>interferance causing those countries' citizens to fail reading tests.
>:)

>I assert that the reason Braille appears slow by average example is
>that it is, by average example, not taught sufficiently to produce a
>different result.  I assert that this is the same sort of cause one
>should see for the other examples I just gave:  imbalance caused by
>lack of opportunity.  I assert these things, and I wonder, can I call
>these "facts" yet, or are they still in dispute?

>On Tue, Dec 09, 2008 at 03:56:47PM -0500, albert griffith wrote:
>While they are some real fast Braille readers here's an example to put
>the issue in perspective.  In 1980 Arkansas Enterprises For The Blind
>trained people to work for both the social Security Administration and
>the IRS.  To qualify people had to read Braille at 100 words per minute

>and at least a third of the applicants didn't meet the minimum
>standard.  All of the applicants had high school diplomas and at least
half were college degreed.
>The mechanics of reading Braille are quite slow by comparison to print
>reading for most Braille users.  Of course there will be exceptions.

>-----Original Message-----
>From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>On Behalf Of Baracco, Andrew W
>Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 12:03 PM
>To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books

>The fastest Braille reader might be able to keep up with the average
>print reader.  As was said before, it's a whole different experience.
>The Braille reader can only perceive what is under his or her fingers.
>The sighted reader can perceive the whole page at once.

>Andy
>

>-----Original Message-----
>From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>On Behalf Of Cindy Handel
>Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 6:50 PM
>To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books

>Well, reading print may be fast for some sighted people.  But, I've
>known blind people who have been able to read Braille so quickly that
>they couldn't talk fast enough to keep up with their Braille reading.
>So, it all depends on the time you devote to it and the technique you
>use to read, either print or Braille.

>Cindy
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "tribble" <lauraeaves at yahoo.com>
>To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 4:15 PM
>Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books


>The nice thing about reading visually is to be able to see spellings
>and page layout and pictures, if any. Also, you can mark passages or
>write notes in the margins.
>But is it faster? I think it is actually -- I don't speak for myself as

>I never had good reading speed due to my declining vision, but I know
>people who polish off books in a couple of days that take me a lot
>longer reading either online or listening to a recording or DAISY book.
>I think DAISY is the best thing that has come along in a while. now if
>the volunteers at bookshare would use the features a bit more
>effectively, it would make navigating the book easier. I mean,
>sometimes an entire book has only one navigation element marking the
>start of the book. So all you really have is your current reading
>position, which lasts from session to session, and the start of the
>book to jump to, and that's all.  Very terse markup.
>oh well -- One of these days I'm going to scan and markup a book and
>submit it to bookshare and then I will be able to complain
>legitimately.
>Happy reading.
>--le


>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Baracco, Andrew W" <Andrew.Baracco at va.gov>
>To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 12:05 PM
>Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books


>Many sighted people who I know enjoy reading visually, and do not like
>to be read to.  They may listen to an audio book while driving,
cooking,
>etc., but generally prefer the experience of reading visually.

>Andy


>-----Original Message-----
>From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>On Behalf Of Joel Deutsch
>Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 9:48 AM
>To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books

>Cindy,

>This portable device, the Kindle, wasn't developed in the spirit of
what
>you and I think of as portable devices to play writing to us. It's a
>different concept, meant to hold many books that can be called up by
the
>sighted reader and looked at. The effect is like having one book-sized
>plastic device that sort of looks like a real book, which a person can
>hold and read the text on the screen. Those who have really reported
>enjoying the Kindle, for instance, have reported taking them on long
>airplane journeys and having the ability to read from any of the many
>books that they may have purchased online and loaded onto the device.
>They would not have preferred to be listening to somebody reading one
or
>another of those books. They like to read print, and listening to audio
>literature may be for them at best an occasional convenience for times
>when they have their hands full and are otherwise occupied, say while
>driving a car or exercising at the gym.
>itotherwsie literatture wo7uld They are simply reading the print, just
>as if it were a real book. It has not been recorded for them by a
>reader. If they wanted audio literature, themselves, and they sometimes
>do, they'd get the recorded stuff from audible  and other vendors, just
>as we do, although without the issues of blind accessibility to the
>controls of the playback units.

>Anyway, as the list of book titles Amazon produces in Kindle form along
>with the print books of the same titles, this list may overlap with
some
>of the recorded titles we are accustomed to seeing offered, but there
>will be a lot more books that haven't wound up produced in commercial
>audio or by the NLS.
>If I could read visually, I'd at least consider this device, although
>I'd think of it as a bit of a luxury. But its list of titles is likely
>to be a lot more inclusive, and a good bit less dependent on nothing
but
>sales ranking, than the titles that are chosen for audio production,
and
>which we can already get for ourselves. It's a unique new book
marketing
>model, not that easily evaluated or understood in blind book terms.

>Hope that helps.
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Cindy Handel" <cindy425 at verizon.net>
>To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 8:45 AM
>Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books


>I guess I just don't understand, with all the other sources for books
>out
>there, which are available to us, why try to make this particular
device
>accessible.  If it was the only portable means of reading books, I
could
>understand why we'd want to have access.  But, there's so much out
>there,
>already.

>Cindy
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
>To: <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 11:01 PM
>Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books


>Like the Everly Brothers sang: "Dream; dream dream dream!"

>Mike

>----- Original Message -----
>From: Ted Shelly <tshelly at optonline.net>
>To: 'Ationfbnet GUI Talk Mailing List' <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>Date: 2008/12/05 15:33:27
>Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books

>>
>>
>> What Amazon needs to do is to make their Kindle book format an open
>> standard
>> that other device manufactures can build into their products.  If for
>> instance the iphone could use the books they would sell a lot more
>books.
>> Then devices for the blind like the Victor Stream could build that
>into
>> their products as well.  This would open up a huge new source of
>reading
>> material for us.  I imagine this will happen eventually, but it may
>take a
>> while.  Amazon is not an easy company to contact, but someone
>mentioned
>> they
>> had a line to the Kindle developer.  Maybe we could start a
>> letter/every-mail
>> writing campaign.
>>
>> Ted
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
[mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>On
>> Behalf Of Cindy Handel
>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 9:54 PM
>> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>>
>> What would be the advantage of adding text to speech to the Kindle
>Reader;
>> especially since we already have the Victor Stream?  The reader,
>itself,
>> is
>> already more expensive than the Stream.  Adding speech would increase
>the
>> cost.
>>
>> Cindy
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Loy" <loyrg2845 at gmail.com>
>> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 7:10 PM
>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>>
>>
>> I corresponded with the developer of this product and asked if it
>would be
>> possible to add text to speech to this product and he replied that he
>> would
>> look into it.
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Baracco, Andrew W" <Andrew.Baracco at va.gov>
>> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:47 AM
>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>>
>>
>> It is the sighted guy's equivalant of the Victor Stream.  The display
>> looks just like a printed book, to give a familiar frame of
reference.
>>
>> Andy
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
[mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> On Behalf Of Cindy Handel
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 2:21 PM
>> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>>
>> Well, I think the idea is that you can purchase and download books
>from
>> Amazon; put them on this reader and take several books along with
>> y...j as we do with the Very Rather Stream.  I'm sure it is the
>software,
>> in the reader, which makes it work.  But, you have to have the little
>> screen and controls to read the books.
>>
>> Cindy
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "tribble" <lauraeaves at yahoo.com>
>> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 3:30 PM
>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>>
>>
>> so apparently you need to have this hardware reader in order to read
a
>> kindle book, which is in some proprietary format? I would think there
>> would
>> be software that could do the job just as well...
>> Thanks.
>> -comle
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Cindy Handel" <cindy425 at verizon.net>
>> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 5:38 AM
>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>>
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Kindle is a hardware reader.  It looks like a book, but has a screen
>> instead
>> of pages.  There are controls to allow the reader to turn pages and
to
>> move
>> from one book to another.  That's really about all I know about it.
>> But, it
>> has no speech and is not accessible.  It's also more expensive than
>the
>> Victor Stream.
>>
>> Cindy
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "tribble" <lauraeaves at yahoo.com>
>> To: "Multiple recipients of NFBnet GUI-TALK Mailing List"
>> <gui-talk at NFBnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 11:49 PM
>> Subject: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>>
>>
>> Hi all -- Has anyone had experience good or bad reading books on
>Kindle
>> sold
>> by amazon?
>> Is Kindle a software reader, or a hardware device like an ipod?
>> Is it accessible? I'd like to get an armload of books but since I
>would
>> be
>> scanning them anyway, I would prefer getting them in some electronic
>> format.
>> What is Kindle anyway?
>> I guess I'll go back to amazon and read up on it, but I wanted to ask
>> the
>> list first.
>> Thanks in advance.
>> Oh, and the books aren't on bookshare -- I checked.
>> -comle
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> gui-talk:
>>
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/cindy425%40ve
r
>> izon.net
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> gui-talk:
>>
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/lauraeaves%40
y
>> ahoo.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> gui-talk:
>>
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/cindy425%40ve
r
>> izon.net
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> gui-talk:
>>
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/andrew.baracc
o
>> %40va.gov
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> gui-talk:
>>
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/loyrg2845%40g
m
>ail.
>> com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> gui-talk:
>>
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/cindy425%40ve
r
>izon
>> ._net
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> gui-talk:
>>
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/tshelly%40opt
o
>nlin
>> e.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gui-talk mailing list
>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> gui-talk:
>>
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix
.
>com

>_______________________________________________
>gui-talk mailing list
>gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>gui-talk:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/cindy425%40ve
r
>izon.net



>_______________________________________________
>gui-talk mailing list
>gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>gui-talk:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/jdeutsch%40ds
l
>extreme.com


>_______________________________________________
>gui-talk mailing list
>gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>gui-talk:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/andrew.baracc
o
>%40va.gov

>_______________________________________________
>gui-talk mailing list
>gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>gui-talk:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/lauraeaves%40
y
>ahoo.com


>_______________________________________________
>gui-talk mailing list
>gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>gui-talk:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/cindy425%40ve
r
>izon.net



>_______________________________________________
>gui-talk mailing list
>gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>gui-talk:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/andrew.baracc
o
>%40va.gov

>_______________________________________________
>gui-talk mailing list
>gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>gui-talk:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/albertgriffit
h%40s
>bcglobal.net


>_______________________________________________
>gui-talk mailing list
>gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
gui-talk:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/dgl%40dlee.or
g

>-- 
>Doug Lee                 dgl at dlee.org
http://www.dlee.org
>SSB BART Group           doug.lee at ssbbartgroup.com
http://www.ssbbartgroup.com
>"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds
>new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' ('I found it!') but rather 'hmm....
>that's funny...'"  --   Isaac Asimov

>_______________________________________________
>gui-talk mailing list
>gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
gui-talk:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobso
n%40visi.com





_______________________________________________
gui-talk mailing list
gui-talk at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
gui-talk:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/andrew.baracco
%40va.gov

_______________________________________________
gui-talk mailing list
gui-talk at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
gui-talk:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/lauraeaves%40yahoo.com

More information about the GUI-Talk mailing list