[gui-talk] Kindle books
Lydia Grier
lydiagrier at comcast.net
Wed Dec 10 18:10:18 UTC 2008
I hope no one thinks or feels that I am aginst braill, because I am not. I
am a product of learning as a yong child. My point is that it has it's place
like everything does such as technology.
----- Original Message -----
From: "albert griffith" <albertgriffith at sbcglobal.net>
To: "'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 8:27 AM
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
> Let me say for the record that my comments regarding the differences in
> braille verses print reading are in no way meant to discourage braille
> literacy. Kids need opportunities to learn braille and adults need to be
> encouraged to do when possible.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of seville allen
> Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 6:34 PM
> To: 'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>
> Thanks, Doug, Braille is a very viable reading system. I too, get tired
> of
> the myth building by those who don't know it, don't believe it is viable
> or
> buy into the stories told by so called professionals who know little to
> nothing of Braille, that it is too difficult, slow, cumbersome, etc. and
> all
> manner of negative dribble.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Doug Lee
> Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 5:21 PM
> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>
> Let's be careful to distinguish facts from drawn conclusions, if we
> plan to address this Braille versus print speed issue here...
>
> Fact: On average, print readers read faster than Braille readers at
> this time.
>
> Fact: On average, blind people that read Braille don't read it as fast
> as 250 words per minute.
>
> If anyone doubts those two, I'm all ears; but I acknowledge them as
> known facts.
>
> Now, as to what they mean...
>
> Those facts do not, I say with emphasis, NOT, mean that Braille is
> slow by definition, due to mechanics or anything else. That's just
> one possible explanation of the facts, and I think the very existence
> of people that read Braille quickly rules out that explanation. We
> have proven that Braille can be read at up to 400 words per minute by
> having people actually do it.
>
> So why so few such examples of fast Braille readers? I think it's
> because there's little emphasis on teaching fast Braille reading
> nowadays. That has nothing to do with Braille's effectiveness as a
> tool.
>
> The reason I am making such an effort to separate fact from conclusion
> is that not doing so has, historically, been the root of a number of
> famous misunderstandings, discriminations, and outright denials of
> individual and collective success. Recall the many arguments waged
> over race versus level of education: We know by now that color of
> skin does not affect ability to learn, but in our history, this
> obvious truth was not always accepted. Recall the 70% (or greater)
> unemployment level of blind people: We know that blindness does not
> directly stop us from working. Even consider that reading speeds and
> even the ability to read at all is much lower in certain countries
> than here: We know that this is not due to some mysterious
> geomagnetic interferance causing those countries' citizens to fail
> reading tests. :)
>
> I assert that the reason Braille appears slow by average example is
> that it is, by average example, not taught sufficiently to produce a
> different result. I assert that this is the same sort of cause one
> should see for the other examples I just gave: imbalance caused by
> lack of opportunity. I assert these things, and I wonder, can I call
> these "facts" yet, or are they still in dispute?
>
> On Tue, Dec 09, 2008 at 03:56:47PM -0500, albert griffith wrote:
> While they are some real fast Braille readers here's an example to put the
> issue in perspective. In 1980 Arkansas Enterprises For The Blind trained
> people to work for both the social Security Administration and the IRS.
> To
> qualify people had to read Braille at 100 words per minute and at least a
> third of the applicants didn't meet the minimum standard. All of the
> applicants had high school diplomas and at least half were college
> degreed.
> The mechanics of reading Braille are quite slow by comparison to print
> reading for most Braille users. Of course there will be exceptions.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Baracco, Andrew W
> Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 12:03 PM
> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>
> The fastest Braille reader might be able to keep up with the average
> print reader. As was said before, it's a whole different experience.
> The Braille reader can only perceive what is under his or her fingers.
> The sighted reader can perceive the whole page at once.
>
> Andy
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On Behalf Of Cindy Handel
> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 6:50 PM
> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>
> Well, reading print may be fast for some sighted people. But, I've
> known blind people who have been able to read Braille so quickly that
> they couldn't talk fast enough to keep up with their Braille reading.
> So, it all depends on the time you devote to it and the technique you
> use to read, either print or Braille.
>
> Cindy
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "tribble" <lauraeaves at yahoo.com>
> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 4:15 PM
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>
>
> The nice thing about reading visually is to be able to see spellings and
> page layout and pictures, if any. Also, you can mark passages or write
> notes
> in the margins.
> But is it faster? I think it is actually -- I don't speak for myself as
> I
> never had good reading speed due to my declining vision, but I know
> people
> who polish off books in a couple of days that take me a lot longer
> reading
> either online or listening to a recording or DAISY book.
> I think DAISY is the best thing that has come along in a while. now if
> the
> volunteers at bookshare would use the features a bit more effectively,
> it
> would make navigating the book easier. I mean, sometimes an entire book
> has
> only one navigation element marking the start of the book. So all you
> really
> have is your current reading position, which lasts from session to
> session,
> and the start of the book to jump to, and that's all. Very terse
> markup.
> oh well -- One of these days I'm going to scan and markup a book and
> submit
> it to bookshare and then I will be able to complain legitimately.
> Happy reading.
> --le
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Baracco, Andrew W" <Andrew.Baracco at va.gov>
> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 12:05 PM
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>
>
> Many sighted people who I know enjoy reading visually, and do not like
> to be read to. They may listen to an audio book while driving, cooking,
> etc., but generally prefer the experience of reading visually.
>
> Andy
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On Behalf Of Joel Deutsch
> Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 9:48 AM
> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>
> Cindy,
>
> This portable device, the Kindle, wasn't developed in the spirit of what
> you and I think of as portable devices to play writing to us. It's a
> different concept, meant to hold many books that can be called up by the
> sighted reader and looked at. The effect is like having one book-sized
> plastic device that sort of looks like a real book, which a person can
> hold and read the text on the screen. Those who have really reported
> enjoying the Kindle, for instance, have reported taking them on long
> airplane journeys and having the ability to read from any of the many
> books that they may have purchased online and loaded onto the device.
> They would not have preferred to be listening to somebody reading one or
> another of those books. They like to read print, and listening to audio
> literature may be for them at best an occasional convenience for times
> when they have their hands full and are otherwise occupied, say while
> driving a car or exercising at the gym.
> itotherwsie literatture wo7uld They are simply reading the print, just
> as if it were a real book. It has not been recorded for them by a
> reader. If they wanted audio literature, themselves, and they sometimes
> do, they'd get the recorded stuff from audible and other vendors, just
> as we do, although without the issues of blind accessibility to the
> controls of the playback units.
>
> Anyway, as the list of book titles Amazon produces in Kindle form along
> with the print books of the same titles, this list may overlap with some
> of the recorded titles we are accustomed to seeing offered, but there
> will be a lot more books that haven't wound up produced in commercial
> audio or by the NLS.
> If I could read visually, I'd at least consider this device, although
> I'd think of it as a bit of a luxury. But its list of titles is likely
> to be a lot more inclusive, and a good bit less dependent on nothing but
> sales ranking, than the titles that are chosen for audio production, and
> which we can already get for ourselves. It's a unique new book marketing
> model, not that easily evaluated or understood in blind book terms.
>
> Hope that helps.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Cindy Handel" <cindy425 at verizon.net>
> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 8:45 AM
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>
>
> I guess I just don't understand, with all the other sources for books
> out
> there, which are available to us, why try to make this particular device
> accessible. If it was the only portable means of reading books, I could
> understand why we'd want to have access. But, there's so much out
> there,
> already.
>
> Cindy
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
> To: <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 11:01 PM
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>
>
> Like the Everly Brothers sang: "Dream; dream dream dream!"
>
> Mike
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ted Shelly <tshelly at optonline.net>
> To: 'Ationfbnet GUI Talk Mailing List' <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Date: 2008/12/05 15:33:27
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>
>>
>>
>> What Amazon needs to do is to make their Kindle book format an open
>> standard
>> that other device manufactures can build into their products. If for
>> instance the iphone could use the books they would sell a lot more
> books.
>> Then devices for the blind like the Victor Stream could build that
> into
>> their products as well. This would open up a huge new source of
> reading
>> material for us. I imagine this will happen eventually, but it may
> take a
>> while. Amazon is not an easy company to contact, but someone
> mentioned
>> they
>> had a line to the Kindle developer. Maybe we could start a
>> letter/every-mail
>> writing campaign.
>>
>> Ted
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On
>> Behalf Of Cindy Handel
>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 9:54 PM
>> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>>
>> What would be the advantage of adding text to speech to the Kindle
> Reader;
>> especially since we already have the Victor Stream? The reader,
> itself,
>> is
>> already more expensive than the Stream. Adding speech would increase
> the
>> cost.
>>
>> Cindy
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Loy" <loyrg2845 at gmail.com>
>> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 7:10 PM
>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>>
>>
>> I corresponded with the developer of this product and asked if it
> would be
>> possible to add text to speech to this product and he replied that he
>> would
>> look into it.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Baracco, Andrew W" <Andrew.Baracco at va.gov>
>> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:47 AM
>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>>
>>
>> It is the sighted guy's equivalant of the Victor Stream. The display
>> looks just like a printed book, to give a familiar frame of reference.
>>
>> Andy
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> On Behalf Of Cindy Handel
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 2:21 PM
>> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>>
>> Well, I think the idea is that you can purchase and download books
> from
>> Amazon; put them on this reader and take several books along with
>> y...j as we do with the Very Rather Stream. I'm sure it is the
> software,
>> in the reader, which makes it work. But, you have to have the little
>> screen and controls to read the books.
>>
>> Cindy
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "tribble" <lauraeaves at yahoo.com>
>> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 3:30 PM
>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>>
>>
>> so apparently you need to have this hardware reader in order to read a
>> kindle book, which is in some proprietary format? I would think there
>> would
>> be software that could do the job just as well...
>> Thanks.
>> -comle
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Cindy Handel" <cindy425 at verizon.net>
>> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 5:38 AM
>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>>
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Kindle is a hardware reader. It looks like a book, but has a screen
>> instead
>> of pages. There are controls to allow the reader to turn pages and to
>> move
>> from one book to another. That's really about all I know about it.
>> But, it
>> has no speech and is not accessible. It's also more expensive than
> the
>> Victor Stream.
>>
>> Cindy
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "tribble" <lauraeaves at yahoo.com>
>> To: "Multiple recipients of NFBnet GUI-TALK Mailing List"
>> <gui-talk at NFBnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 11:49 PM
>> Subject: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>>
>>
>> Hi all -- Has anyone had experience good or bad reading books on
> Kindle
>> sold
>> by amazon?
>> Is Kindle a software reader, or a hardware device like an ipod?
>> Is it accessible? I'd like to get an armload of books but since I
> would
>> be
>> scanning them anyway, I would prefer getting them in some electronic
>> format.
>> What is Kindle anyway?
>> I guess I'll go back to amazon and read up on it, but I wanted to ask
>> the
>> list first.
>> Thanks in advance.
>> Oh, and the books aren't on bookshare -- I checked.
>> -comle
>>
>>
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> --
> Doug Lee dgl at dlee.org http://www.dlee.org
> SSB BART Group doug.lee at ssbbartgroup.com
> http://www.ssbbartgroup.com
> "The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds
> new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' ('I found it!') but rather 'hmm....
> that's funny...'" -- Isaac Asimov
>
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