[gui-talk] Kindle books

Doug Lee dgl at dlee.org
Tue Dec 9 13:36:37 UTC 2008 

Responding to two notes at once here, one from later in this thread:

Someone said sighted readers tend to achieve 400 to 500 words per
minute.  I know one person that reads at about 250 in Braille and one
that reads about 400 in Braille.  It's rare, but arguably that may be
a matter of lack of education and opportunity more than lack of
feasibility.  I've never topped 110 myself, but except for a few
months in 1991, I've never made a concerted effort to do so either.

As to Laura's remark about dust specs and extra dots throwing off the
meaning of a sentence, this is true but usually mittigated by context.
However, I do have a favorite incident that happened to me once, back
in the 80's.  I was visiting a good friend, and I took a phone message
for her in Braille.  The call came from the Department of Human
Rights, but in my haste to Braille that, I accidentally pressed dot 4
instead of dot 5 when I was typing the "r" of "rights."  The result,
for any non-Braille readers in here, was that my message claimed to
have come from the Department of Human Parts.  I'm sure that, too, was
mittigated by context though, even if not made any less amusing.

On Tue, Dec 09, 2008 at 02:42:57AM -0600, tribble wrote:
I can't imagine reading braille that fast -- I have a hard time reading 
little spot notes when teaching a class -- just outlines with keywords. 
Also, braille is prone to change radically if a dot is missing or added 
where it isn't supposed to be, or if there is a speck of dirt on the page --  
it mixes me up when that happens.
I know I need practice, but it is a real challenge for me to stick with it.
It's just so slow.
tips welcome.
happy reading.
--le

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Cindy Handel" <cindy425 at verizon.net>
To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 8:50 PM
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books


Well, reading print may be fast for some sighted people.  But, I've known
blind people who have been able to read Braille so quickly that they
couldn't talk fast enough to keep up with their Braille reading.  So, it all
depends on the time you devote to it and the technique you use to read,
either print or Braille.

Cindy
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "tribble" <lauraeaves at yahoo.com>
To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 4:15 PM
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books


The nice thing about reading visually is to be able to see spellings and
page layout and pictures, if any. Also, you can mark passages or write notes
in the margins.
But is it faster? I think it is actually -- I don't speak for myself as I
never had good reading speed due to my declining vision, but I know people
who polish off books in a couple of days that take me a lot longer reading
either online or listening to a recording or DAISY book.
I think DAISY is the best thing that has come along in a while. now if the
volunteers at bookshare would use the features a bit more effectively, it
would make navigating the book easier. I mean, sometimes an entire book has
only one navigation element marking the start of the book. So all you really
have is your current reading position, which lasts from session to session,
and the start of the book to jump to, and that's all.  Very terse markup.
oh well -- One of these days I'm going to scan and markup a book and submit
it to bookshare and then I will be able to complain legitimately.
Happy reading.
--le


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Baracco, Andrew W" <Andrew.Baracco at va.gov>
To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 12:05 PM
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books


Many sighted people who I know enjoy reading visually, and do not like
to be read to.  They may listen to an audio book while driving, cooking,
etc., but generally prefer the experience of reading visually.

Andy


-----Original Message-----
From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Joel Deutsch
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 9:48 AM
To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books

Cindy,

This portable device, the Kindle, wasn't developed in the spirit of what
you and I think of as portable devices to play writing to us. It's a
different concept, meant to hold many books that can be called up by the
sighted reader and looked at. The effect is like having one book-sized
plastic device that sort of looks like a real book, which a person can
hold and read the text on the screen. Those who have really reported
enjoying the Kindle, for instance, have reported taking them on long
airplane journeys and having the ability to read from any of the many
books that they may have purchased online and loaded onto the device.
They would not have preferred to be listening to somebody reading one or
another of those books. They like to read print, and listening to audio
literature may be for them at best an occasional convenience for times
when they have their hands full and are otherwise occupied, say while
driving a car or exercising at the gym.
itotherwsie literatture wo7uld They are simply reading the print, just
as if it were a real book. It has not been recorded for them by a
reader. If they wanted audio literature, themselves, and they sometimes
do, they'd get the recorded stuff from audible  and other vendors, just
as we do, although without the issues of blind accessibility to the
controls of the playback units.

Anyway, as the list of book titles Amazon produces in Kindle form along
with the print books of the same titles, this list may overlap with some
of the recorded titles we are accustomed to seeing offered, but there
will be a lot more books that haven't wound up produced in commercial
audio or by the NLS.
If I could read visually, I'd at least consider this device, although
I'd think of it as a bit of a luxury. But its list of titles is likely
to be a lot more inclusive, and a good bit less dependent on nothing but
sales ranking, than the titles that are chosen for audio production, and
which we can already get for ourselves. It's a unique new book marketing
model, not that easily evaluated or understood in blind book terms.

Hope that helps.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cindy Handel" <cindy425 at verizon.net>
To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 8:45 AM
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books


I guess I just don't understand, with all the other sources for books
out
there, which are available to us, why try to make this particular device
accessible.  If it was the only portable means of reading books, I could
understand why we'd want to have access.  But, there's so much out
there,
already.

Cindy
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
To: <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 11:01 PM
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books


Like the Everly Brothers sang: "Dream; dream dream dream!"

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: Ted Shelly <tshelly at optonline.net>
To: 'Ationfbnet GUI Talk Mailing List' <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Date: 2008/12/05 15:33:27
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books

>
>
> What Amazon needs to do is to make their Kindle book format an open
> standard
> that other device manufactures can build into their products.  If for
> instance the iphone could use the books they would sell a lot more
books.
> Then devices for the blind like the Victor Stream could build that
into
> their products as well.  This would open up a huge new source of
reading
> material for us.  I imagine this will happen eventually, but it may
take a
> while.  Amazon is not an easy company to contact, but someone
mentioned
> they
> had a line to the Kindle developer.  Maybe we could start a
> letter/every-mail
> writing campaign.
>
> Ted
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On
> Behalf Of Cindy Handel
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 9:54 PM
> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>
> What would be the advantage of adding text to speech to the Kindle
Reader;
> especially since we already have the Victor Stream?  The reader,
itself,
> is
> already more expensive than the Stream.  Adding speech would increase
the
> cost.
>
> Cindy
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Loy" <loyrg2845 at gmail.com>
> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 7:10 PM
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>
>
> I corresponded with the developer of this product and asked if it
would be
> possible to add text to speech to this product and he replied that he
> would
> look into it.
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Baracco, Andrew W" <Andrew.Baracco at va.gov>
> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:47 AM
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>
>
> It is the sighted guy's equivalant of the Victor Stream.  The display
> looks just like a printed book, to give a familiar frame of reference.
>
> Andy
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On Behalf Of Cindy Handel
> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 2:21 PM
> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>
> Well, I think the idea is that you can purchase and download books
from
> Amazon; put them on this reader and take several books along with
> y...j as we do with the Very Rather Stream.  I'm sure it is the
software,
> in the reader, which makes it work.  But, you have to have the little
> screen and controls to read the books.
>
> Cindy
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "tribble" <lauraeaves at yahoo.com>
> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 3:30 PM
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>
>
> so apparently you need to have this hardware reader in order to read a
> kindle book, which is in some proprietary format? I would think there
> would
> be software that could do the job just as well...
> Thanks.
> -comle
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Cindy Handel" <cindy425 at verizon.net>
> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 5:38 AM
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>
>
> Hi,
>
> Kindle is a hardware reader.  It looks like a book, but has a screen
> instead
> of pages.  There are controls to allow the reader to turn pages and to
> move
> from one book to another.  That's really about all I know about it.
> But, it
> has no speech and is not accessible.  It's also more expensive than
the
> Victor Stream.
>
> Cindy
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "tribble" <lauraeaves at yahoo.com>
> To: "Multiple recipients of NFBnet GUI-TALK Mailing List"
> <gui-talk at NFBnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 11:49 PM
> Subject: [gui-talk] Kindle books
>
>
> Hi all -- Has anyone had experience good or bad reading books on
Kindle
> sold
> by amazon?
> Is Kindle a software reader, or a hardware device like an ipod?
> Is it accessible? I'd like to get an armload of books but since I
would
> be
> scanning them anyway, I would prefer getting them in some electronic
> format.
> What is Kindle anyway?
> I guess I'll go back to amazon and read up on it, but I wanted to ask
> the
> list first.
> Thanks in advance.
> Oh, and the books aren't on bookshare -- I checked.
> -comle
>
>
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-- 
Doug Lee                 dgl at dlee.org                http://www.dlee.org
SSB BART Group           doug.lee at ssbbartgroup.com   http://www.ssbbartgroup.com
In laughter, love is found; but in tears, it is forged.  (12/09/01)

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