[gui-talk] Fwd: Amazon pressrelease ConcerningAccessibilityofWeb Site

Sat Jan 5 13:02:50 CST 2008

Steve, I find your arguments persuasive.  If accepted standards aren't met,
we should advocate through the courts or whatever means necessary to insure
compliance.  I also believe more of us need to take responsibility for
becoming familiar with advances in the improvements of our screen readers.
I can't tell you how many times a person has stated they were unable to
access a site when the problem was that they hadn't learned to use their
screen reader's commands.

-----Original Message-----
From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Steve Jacobson
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 11:31 PM
To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Fwd: Amazon pressrelease
ConcerningAccessibilityofWeb Site

Albert,

For many years now, I've struggled to come up with a definition of
accessibility without any success.  There are many reasons for this.  For
one thing, how well we can use a page does depend on our personal ability.
Second, it can also depend upon the work done by our particular
manufacturer.  Third, it can depend at least to some degree upon the we
browser developer.  We considered frames to be inaccessible before Internet
Explorer 5 and the Window-Eyes Browse Mode and JFW's Virtual Cursor, all
made possible to some extent by MSAA.  Even so, there is a lot of
documentation out there that can help the interested web developer.

Still, there are things that are revealing themselves as being difficult for
us.  Some of these are show stoppers and others are not that hard to fix.
For example, buttons that we can't find or even label ourselves are often
show stoppers.  Links that are not labeled correctly may or may not be show
stoppers, but there really isn't a reason these cannot be fixed.
One common thought is that if a labeled link duplicates an unlabeled link,
there is no problem.  However, how do we know they are the same.  The real
point, though, is that such things as CAPTCHA's were generally not put in
place with the developers knowing they were excluding us.  The fact is that
they didn't think of us or even know that we exist.
This is true of most problems we have with accessibility.  The developers
don't know we're using their sites and don't give us a second thought when
developing their sites.  Once they are in place, it can be expensive to
re-engineer what they have already done.

For all these resons, I believe our best strategy is to do what we can to
get large companies to consider us as they develop sites.  Their sites may
never be perfect and we may always find some rough edges, but if we don't
make our feelings known at all, we won't stay where we are, rather we'll
loose ground quickly.  There are always going to be various degrees of
accessibility, and we need to do what we can to be patient.  If we get big
companies to at least make an effort and acknowledge that we exist, it will
filter down to smaller sites as well.  Therefore, getting Amazon to work
with us is very significant, even if they don't have the worst web site on
the block.  Allowing Target to say we don't matter even if it seems they do
fix some aspects of their site can't be allowed to stand because of the
message it would send to other developers.  We have a lot of companies
working to make their sites accessible, probably more than ever, and I see a
lot of hope out there now that I didn't see two years ago.  Still, we're
going to sometimes be frustrated with web sites that are poorly designed for
everybody, and we're going to suffer from sites that are overloaded.  We
must try to determine when we need to complain to our screen reader
developer because occasionally the problem lies there.  In short, there is
no getting around the fact that we probably have to be more educated than
our sighted counterparts and help each other make the most of this
technology.

On Fri, 4 Jan 2008 23:02:24 -0500, albert griffith wrote:

>It appears we're not talking about a problem as easily defined as those
>concerning, say, captia.

>-----Original Message-----
>From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>On Behalf Of Darrell Shandrow
>Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 9:57 PM
>To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Fwd: Amazon press release
>ConcerningAccessibilityofWeb Site

>Hello Albert,

>I don't consider Amazon to be inaccessible, but I think it could be a
>lot more usable. Ah, but, then, isn't that the sticking point?
>Accessibility versus real usability?

>Darrell Shandrow - Accessibility Evangelist Michele Y. Sinnock (sister):
>7/20/1957 - 11/29/2007 Please visit http://BlindWebAccess.com and sign
>the petition asking Yahoo!
>to make their CAPTCHA accessible!
>Information should be accessible to us without need of translation by
>another person.
>Blind Access Journal blog and podcast:
>http://www.blindaccessjournal.com Check out high quality
>telecommunications services at http://ld.net/?nu7i
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "albert griffith" <albertgriffith at sbcglobal.net>
>To: "'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 6:34 PM
>Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Fwd: Amazon press release Concerning
>AccessibilityofWeb Site

>I've yet to fail in any attempt to locate a product on that site.  the
>folks at amazon have gone so far as to create a special stripped down
>version of the site for mobile phone users and us.  I have allot of
>sympathy for their web department people.  If someone would give me an
>example of a product I can't find or service I can't use on their site
>I'd be interesting in taking a look.  As it stands, it seems the blind
>are blaming Amazon for a lack of computer skill.  Target's site had
>problems.  combo boxes didn't work and a few other things.

>-----Original Message-----
>From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>On Behalf Of Joel Deutsch
>Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 5:17 PM
>To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Fwd: Amazon press release Concerning
>Accessibilityof Web Site

>Dave, this is not addressed to you. it's a general statement after
>reading the past few messages.

>In some very reasonable bulletins I've seen discussing the need for
>better screen reader accessibility of Web sites, it's stressed that
"accessible"
>doesn't necessarily equate to "fully usable." Let us not quarrel over
>whose jaws jockey skills seem better than someone else's, or whatever
>causes people to disregard each others' problems with something like
>Amazon. And that includes the possibility that something in the
>specifics of the way their computer is set up allow them to avoid the
>problem, even though its causes are not well understood outside of the
>amazon Web design department, where I'll bet they know just what's
>going on but are not dealing with it, for some reason.

>I'm a perfectly adequate jaws user, if not necessarily a big power user
>who loves to be challenged to discover and perform tricky workarounds
>of various sorts. And I'm not the only one, as I know from the JFW
>list, who has encountered over the past six months or more this problem
>of the product pages being nearly impossible to slog through with Jaws,
>either using tabs, arrow keys or single letter navigation tricks.
>Something is wrong on that part of the site, for more than just one or
>two poorly skilled Jaws users or whining complainers. Let's have a
>little mutual respect and not tell the people who are getting drenched that
it isn't raining where you're standing.

>This isn't helpful, informative or supportive.

>thanks for the kind consideration.

>----- Original Message -----
>From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 1:44 PM
>Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Fwd: Amazon press release Concerning
>Accessibility of Web Site

>No one said it was inaccessible, but it could be better or "more
accessible"
>for blind persons.

>Dave

>At 02:59 PM 1/4/2008, you wrote:
>>Please excuse my ignorance on this one, but I've been successfully
>>shopping on amazon.com for years.  Just exactly what's supposed to
>>be not accessible?   I use the standard www.amazon.com for all my
>>purchases.
>>
>>I do use the search function of my screen reader to bypass a lot I
>>don't wish to see, but that's no big deal.
>>
>>Not meaning to be argumentative, just would really like to know.
>>
>>Don
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>>To: <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>; <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>;
>><nfb-announce at nfbnet.org>; <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>; <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>;
>><nfb-web at nfbnet.org>; <nfb-db at nfbnet.org>; <nosb at nfbnet.org>;
>><promotion-technology at nfbnet.org>;
>><nfbcs at nfbnet.org>; <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>; <blparent at nfbnet.org>;
>><blindkid at nfbnet.org>; <nfbwatlk at nfbnet.org>; <nfb-science at nfbnet.org>
>>Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 11:16 AM
>>Subject: [gui-talk] Fwd: Amazon press release Concerning Accessibility
>>ofWeb Site
>>
>>
>> >
>> >>
>> >>----------
>> >>Amazon.com Accessibility to be Completed June 30, 2008
>> >>
>> >>The National Federation of the Blind and online retailer Amazon,
>> >>Inc., have announced that work to make Amazon.com fully accessible
>> >>to blind computer users is to be completed by June 30, 2008.  In
>> >>March of 2007, Amazon entered into a technology development
>> >>agreement with the National Federation of the Blind pursuant to
>> >>which Amazon was to attempt to make Amazon.com fully accessible by
>> >>December 31, 2007.  Because of the complexity of the task, it was
>> >>recognized that this was an ambitious goal and that problems might
>> >>be encountered; accordingly, the agreement provided that Amazon
>> >>could have a six-month extension, if necessary, to complete work on
>> >>making its Web site fully accessible to blind computer users.
>> >>Amazon's Web site has improved; nonetheless, Amazon recognizes that
>> >>it is not yet fully accessible.  Amazon has indicated that it will
>> >>complete the task within the extended period.
>> >>
>> >>Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind,
>> >>said: "Full and equal access to the Internet is critical in order
>> >>for the blind to participate fully in today's society.  While
>> >>Amazon.com is not yet fully accessible, we are pleased with the
>> >>progress that has been made and we believe that the company remains
>> >>committed to making the site fully accessible.  We will continue to
>> >>work with Amazon.com to ensure that the blind can shop for books,
>> >>music, movies, and the myriad other products available at this
>> >>leading online retailer with the same ease and convenience as all
>> >>other shoppers."
>> >>
>> >>
>> >># # #
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> > David Andrews and white cane Harry.
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
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>> >
>>
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>David Andrews and white cane Harry.

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