[gui-talk] Fwd: Amazon press release ConcerningAccessibilityofWeb Site

Steve Jacobson steve.jacobson at visi.com
Fri Jan 4 22:31:20 CST 2008 

Albert,

For many years now, I've struggled to come up with a definition of accessibility without any success.  There are many 
reasons for this.  For one thing, how well we can use a page does depend on our personal ability.  Second, it can also 
depend upon the work done by our particular manufacturer.  Third, it can depend at least to some degree upon the we 
browser developer.  We considered frames to be inaccessible before Internet Explorer 5 and the Window-Eyes Browse 
Mode and JFW's Virtual Cursor, all made possible to some extent by MSAA.  Even so, there is a lot of documentation out 
there that can help the interested web developer.

Still, there are things that are revealing themselves as being difficult for us.  Some of these are show stoppers and others 
are not that hard to fix.  For example, buttons that we can't find or even label ourselves are often show stoppers.  Links 
that are not labeled correctly may or may not be show stoppers, but there really isn't a reason these cannot be fixed.  
One common thought is that if a labeled link duplicates an unlabeled link, there is no problem.  However, how do we 
know they are the same.  The real point, though, is that such things as CAPTCHA's were generally not put in place with 
the developers knowing they were excluding us.  The fact is that they didn't think of us or even know that we exist.  
This is true of most problems we have with accessibility.  The developers don't know we're using their sites and don't 
give us a second thought when developing their sites.  Once they are in place, it can be expensive to re-engineer what 
they have already done.

For all these resons, I believe our best strategy is to do what we can to get large companies to consider us as they 
develop sites.  Their sites may never be perfect and we may always find some rough edges, but if we don't make our 
feelings known at all, we won't stay where we are, rather we'll loose ground quickly.  There are always going to be 
various degrees of accessibility, and we need to do what we can to be patient.  If we get big companies to at least 
make an effort and acknowledge that we exist, it will filter down to smaller sites as well.  Therefore, getting Amazon to 
work with us is very significant, even if they don't have the worst web site on the block.  Allowing Target to say we don't 
matter even if it seems they do fix some aspects of their site can't be allowed to stand because of the message it would 
send to other developers.  We have a lot of companies working to make their sites accessible, probably more than ever, 
and I see a lot of hope out there now that I didn't see two years ago.  Still, we're going to sometimes be frustrated with 
web sites that are poorly designed for everybody, and we're going to suffer from sites that are overloaded.  We must try 
to determine when we need to complain to our screen reader developer because occasionally the problem lies there.  In 
short, there is no getting around the fact that we probably have to be more educated than our sighted counterparts and 
help each other make the most of this technology.

On Fri, 4 Jan 2008 23:02:24 -0500, albert griffith wrote:

>It appears we're not talking about a problem as easily defined as those
>concerning, say, captia.

>-----Original Message-----
>From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>Behalf Of Darrell Shandrow
>Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 9:57 PM
>To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Fwd: Amazon press release
>ConcerningAccessibilityofWeb Site

>Hello Albert,

>I don't consider Amazon to be inaccessible, but I think it could be a lot
>more usable. Ah, but, then, isn't that the sticking point? Accessibility
>versus real usability?

>Darrell Shandrow - Accessibility Evangelist Michele Y. Sinnock (sister):
>7/20/1957 - 11/29/2007 Please visit http://BlindWebAccess.com and sign the
>petition asking Yahoo!
>to make their CAPTCHA accessible!
>Information should be accessible to us without need of translation by
>another person.
>Blind Access Journal blog and podcast: http://www.blindaccessjournal.com
>Check out high quality telecommunications services at http://ld.net/?nu7i
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "albert griffith" <albertgriffith at sbcglobal.net>
>To: "'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 6:34 PM
>Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Fwd: Amazon press release Concerning
>AccessibilityofWeb Site


>I've yet to fail in any attempt to locate a product on that site.  the folks
>at amazon have gone so far as to create a special stripped down version of
>the site for mobile phone users and us.  I have allot of sympathy for their
>web department people.  If someone would give me an example of a product I
>can't find or service I can't use on their site I'd be interesting in taking
>a look.  As it stands, it seems the blind are blaming Amazon for a lack of
>computer skill.  Target's site had problems.  combo boxes didn't work and a
>few other things.

>-----Original Message-----
>From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>Behalf Of Joel Deutsch
>Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 5:17 PM
>To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Fwd: Amazon press release Concerning Accessibilityof
>Web Site

>Dave, this is not addressed to you. it's a general statement after reading
>the past few messages.

>In some very reasonable bulletins I've seen discussing the need for better
>screen reader accessibility of Web sites, it's stressed that "accessible"
>doesn't necessarily equate to "fully usable." Let us not quarrel over whose
>jaws jockey skills seem better than someone else's, or whatever causes
>people to disregard each others' problems with something like Amazon. And
>that includes the possibility that something in the specifics of the way
>their computer is set up allow them to avoid the problem, even though its
>causes are not well understood outside of the amazon Web design department,
>where I'll bet they know just what's going on but are not dealing with it,
>for some reason.

>I'm a perfectly adequate jaws user, if not necessarily a big power user who
>loves to be challenged to discover and perform tricky workarounds of various
>sorts. And I'm not the only one, as I know from the JFW list, who has
>encountered over the past six months or more this problem of the product
>pages being nearly impossible to slog through with Jaws, either using tabs,
>arrow keys or single letter navigation tricks. Something is wrong on that
>part of the site, for more than just one or two poorly skilled Jaws users or
>whining complainers. Let's have a little mutual respect and not tell the
>people who are getting drenched that it isn't raining where you're standing.

>This isn't helpful, informative or supportive.

>thanks for the kind consideration.

>----- Original Message -----
>From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 1:44 PM
>Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Fwd: Amazon press release Concerning Accessibility
>of Web Site


>No one said it was inaccessible, but it could be better or "more accessible"
>for blind persons.

>Dave

>At 02:59 PM 1/4/2008, you wrote:
>>Please excuse my ignorance on this one, but I've been successfully
>>shopping on amazon.com for years.  Just exactly what's supposed to
>>be not accessible?   I use the standard www.amazon.com for all my
>>purchases.
>>
>>I do use the search function of my screen reader to bypass a lot I
>>don't wish to see, but that's no big deal.
>>
>>Not meaning to be argumentative, just would really like to know.
>>
>>Don
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>>To: <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>; <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>;
>><nfb-announce at nfbnet.org>; <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>; <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>;
>><nfb-web at nfbnet.org>; <nfb-db at nfbnet.org>; <nosb at nfbnet.org>;
>><promotion-technology at nfbnet.org>;
>><nfbcs at nfbnet.org>; <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>; <blparent at nfbnet.org>;
>><blindkid at nfbnet.org>; <nfbwatlk at nfbnet.org>; <nfb-science at nfbnet.org>
>>Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 11:16 AM
>>Subject: [gui-talk] Fwd: Amazon press release Concerning Accessibility
>>ofWeb Site
>>
>>
>> >
>> >>
>> >>----------
>> >>Amazon.com Accessibility to be Completed June 30, 2008
>> >>
>> >>The National Federation of the Blind and online retailer Amazon,
>> >>Inc., have announced that work to make Amazon.com fully accessible
>> >>to blind computer users is to be completed by June 30, 2008.  In
>> >>March of 2007, Amazon entered into a technology development
>> >>agreement with the National Federation of the Blind pursuant to
>> >>which Amazon was to attempt to make Amazon.com fully accessible by
>> >>December 31, 2007.  Because of the complexity of the task, it was
>> >>recognized that this was an ambitious goal and that problems might
>> >>be encountered; accordingly, the agreement provided that Amazon
>> >>could have a six-month extension, if necessary, to complete work on
>> >>making its Web site fully accessible to blind computer users.
>> >>Amazon's Web site has improved; nonetheless, Amazon recognizes that
>> >>it is not yet fully accessible.  Amazon has indicated that it will
>> >>complete the task within the extended period.
>> >>
>> >>Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind,
>> >>said: "Full and equal access to the Internet is critical in order
>> >>for the blind to participate fully in today's society.  While
>> >>Amazon.com is not yet fully accessible, we are pleased with the
>> >>progress that has been made and we believe that the company remains
>> >>committed to making the site fully accessible.  We will continue to
>> >>work with Amazon.com to ensure that the blind can shop for books,
>> >>music, movies, and the myriad other products available at this
>> >>leading online retailer with the same ease and convenience as all
>> >>other shoppers."
>> >>
>> >>
>> >># # #
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> > David Andrews and white cane Harry.
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > gui-talk mailing list
>> > gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk
>> >
>> > __________ NOD32 2765 (20080104) Information __________
>> >
>> > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
>> > http://www.eset.com
>> >
>> >
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>gui-talk mailing list
>>gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk

>David Andrews and white cane Harry.


>_______________________________________________
>gui-talk mailing list
>gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk


>_______________________________________________
>gui-talk mailing list
>gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk


>_______________________________________________
>gui-talk mailing list
>gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk

>_______________________________________________
>gui-talk mailing list
>gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk


>_______________________________________________
>gui-talk mailing list
>gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk

More information about the gui-talk mailing list