[gui-talk] Hot to toggle off IE7 History pane? Stress Relief
Ankers, Dave (UK)
Dave.Ankers at baesystems.com
Thu Jul 12 09:38:47 CDT 2007
Hi All,
Does anyone on the list in the UK remember Tiswas? Yes it was on TV on
Saturday mornings...twenty five years ago, showing my age! Well they had
a cage in which volunteers had buckets of water and custard pies thrown
at them. Well nothing would please me more than to see the employees of
Microsoft in that cage, and having buckets of water and custard pies
thrown at them! What a great way to releave the stress caused by their
invention....Windows! And lets not forget Freedom Scientific!
Come on Kelly, in the cage LOL
Dave
Joel,
I work for Microsoft as part of the Internet Explorer team. My official
title is test lead which means that I'm responsible for management of a
team that tests the product. In my case, my team's responsible for
testing the user interface, that is all the menus, dialogs, buttons and
other assorted items used to interact with the product outside the web
page. Some of the areas we owned in IE7 for example were the favorites
center talked about here, the IE search, pop-up blocker, first run
experience for the product and more.This is a bit of a simplification of
what we actually own but should give you an idea.
I'm also responsible for driving our accessibility testing across the
full test team for the product. We actually have a job opening for
someone to join our team and take this responsibility over for anyone
who's interested.
Details on this are at
http://members.microsoft.com/careers/search/details.aspx?JobID=EDC85083-
8FD9
-4E16-BE2B-1B736C30E3AC&start=1&interval=10&SortCol=DatePosted. If the
link doesn't work you can go to http://www.microsoft.com/careers and do
a job search with the job code of 186473.
Back to the original topic, your example is an excellent sample. I'd
agree that our documentation has shifted away from this sort of detail
in the help. I'll talk to some of our user assistance folks and see
what they think for future versions. If nothing eolse perhaps we can
put something like together for a posting on our product blog.
When posting about IE or other Microsoft products I try and indicate
that I work for MS because I've kept my personal address subscribed to
most of the e-mail lists due to the volume of mail and such.
Kelly
the browser functionality. I try and mention that here and on other
lists from time to time when I post about IE because my personal address
is what happens to be subscribed to most lists largely due to the volume
of mail and such.
-----Original Message-----
From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Joel Deutsch
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 11:43 AM
To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Hot to toggle off IE7 History pane?
Hi Kelly,
First, what sort of company or group is it you're working with? if you
ever explained that, I must have missed it. Anyway,if you're involved
in designing some sort of documentation for popular interfaces including
IE 7, here's the sort of thing I was wishing I could find:
The model is the narrative one that used to be common in printed user
manuals, back when such manuals accompanied software you brought home
from a bricks and mortar store in a box, and when I had more or less
normal vision for reading. In this case, following a chapter about
system requirements,
and a chapter of installation directions, there'd be a chapter
introducing
the interface of the application, before moving on to chapters about
specific areas of functionality.
Here, there'd be writing describing the screen elements you'd see when
you launched the program, descriptive text, and that text would be
supplemented by labeled diagrams, either between paragraphs or on a
facing page reserved just for such things.
What I miss at this point is the narrative, descriptive part of the text
of such manuals. In even the most nicely arranged, most accessible Help
documentation, the kind that's set up as books and topics, in a view,
there's seldom anything like this. the implication being that if the
Help directs you what controls to activate, you'll be looking right at
them on your screen while you're reading the instructions, and there's
no sense wasting words trying to describe congenially what you're
already looking at.
Me, if I could still see an application's interface, I'd still
appreciate the part that's typically missing, now. But that's me, or
some dwindling class of some sort I must belong to, in the demographics
of "knowledge"
versus "information," "problem," "concern" etc. versus the ubiquitous,
often euphemistic "issue," and the like. It's a cultural shift, and so
it goes.
But now that I can *not* see things to infer what I need to know, I miss
the generosity of such instructions and directions a lot more than I
would otherwise.
Anyway, I'll just kind of goof around and make up an example based on my
very likely completely wrong imagining. Feel free to have a giggle at my
expense on that, but this is the idea:
(This would be a headered section of the chapter The Internet Explorer 7
Interface.
The Helpful IE 7 "Bars:" control and Flexibility
Beneath the Internet Explorer menu line are three additional areas from
which the user can control and customize the browser. Positioned one
beneath the other, from top to bottom, they are:
1. The Tool Bar: This is the traditional Internet Explorer tool bar
offering convenient controls for common browser functions that the user
can just click on instead of having to open a menu. (list of functions
available from Tool Bar).
2. The Explorer Bar: This bar contains additional easy-to-access
controls for additional functions beyond basic browser operations. (Here
would go a brief description of whatever is operated from this bar,
maybe it's the Favorites, feeds and history, maybe the Google search
function, etc.?)
3. The Information Bar: Here are the controls you need to respond to
system messages from Internet Explorer requesting you to turn certain
functions on or off or respond to any error messages you may receive. (a
list of what's on this bar follows, here)
Then, if attention's being paid to the keyboard and screen reader user,
there will be some text devoted to listing the keystrokes for navigating
to these bars, and among them, and for moving among each bar's options,
as well as the hotkeys for operating the controls in each of the bars
without actually going to the bar and navigating to that control.
that's the general idea. I hope what I've described is useful to some
degree.
Again, for whom do you work, and what kind of project would it be where
descriptions and instructions anything like the above might be included?
Thanks very much,
Joel
From: "Kelly Ford" <kelly at kellford.com>
To: "'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 5:54 PM
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Hot to toggle off IE7 History pane?
Joel,
What kind of description would you like to see? I won't promise
anything in the short term but our user assistance team on IE is always
looking to improve how we describe the program.
Kelly
-----Original Message-----
From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Joel Deutsch
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 4:52 PM
To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Hot to toggle off IE7 History pane?
chuck,
Okay. I've explored the menu commands and played around with the Feeds
list using this way and that to call it up. I see that if I call it with
that menu command or of course Control Shift J (if I had that
available), the list would stay put and, when I wanted to get back into
it from a Web page, I'd have to tab or shift tab a bunch of times until
I landed in it. Which is some hassle. So just calling it up afresh with
Control J each time I want to use it isn't so terrible, I guess. I
imagine that displaying it in pinned mode is more of a convenience to
someone sighted and using a mouse, where you'd just zip the mouse
pointer to it and click on one of the entries. But using the keyboard,
it's no more trouble-- less, in fact-- to just let it disappear and then
call it up again with Control J.
Oh, well. It was worth asking, and thank you for inspiring me to take a
look around the new View menu. The only menu (besides Help) that I'd
really looked around to that point was the Tools menu.
From: "Charles Oppermann" <chuckop at exchange.microsoft.com>
To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 3:20 PM
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Hot to toggle off IE7 History pane?
In that case, where an application has taken over a shortcut key, do
this...
ALT+V to bring up the View menu
E to show the Explorer Bar sub-menu
D to select the Feeds menu item
Enter to show or hide a pinned Feeds pane.
ALT+V, E, D, Enter
--Chuck
-----Original Message-----
From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Joel Deutsch
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 3:00 PM
To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Hot to toggle off IE7 History pane?
Well, it looks as though I won't be pinning my Feeds list. I tried
invoking it using Control Shift J, and to my surprise, found that I'd
launched my podcatcher, Juice, and was in the list of subscribed
podcasts. No way out but to exit Juice properly, whereupon I was back on
the open Web page I'd been at when I tried the keystroke. I never even
knew Juice had installed itself with a shortcut key. I guess if I opened
the properties for its Desktop icon, I could either modify or simply
delete that. One of which I suppose I'll have to do.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Oppermann" <chuckop at exchange.microsoft.com>
To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 1:40 PM
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Hot to toggle off IE7 History pane?
The Feeds pane will work just like the History and Favorites pane. If
you invoke it with CTRL+J, the Feeds pane will appear unpinned and will
disappear when an item is activated.
If you invoke the Feeds Pane via CTRL+SHIFT+J, then it will appear
pinned and will stay in place.
--Chuck
-----Original Message-----
From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Joel Deutsch
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 12:27 PM
To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Hot to toggle off IE7 History pane?
chuck,
that helps quite a lot, and thanks for taking the time to figure it out.
I'm aware that history, feeds and the favorites center have become a
group of services you can invoke with a control key combo, but there
wasn't any way on earth that I could have guessed that adding the shift
key would reverse their effect.
By the way, that's what I'll want to do from now on, use the shift key.
Because, going by your description of how these things are called now in
terms of placement, the History pane used to simply be what you now
describe as pinned. And that's how I got used to it. Taking up something
like a third of the screen (I could see this more clearly a few years
ago than I can now), staying there so you can go to it and navigate
there as long as you feel like it until you want to clean it off the
screen, and meantime causing no problem for the loaded Web page or for
Jaws, since my guess is that the pane with the Web page in it just gets
narrowed and lengthened, nothing worse in terms of Jaws focus when you
want to jump back to it without closing the History pane. As for the
unpinned thing, where the History closes when you click on an item, that
sounds as if it must be helpful and convenient for the person who just
wanted to go back and find one single item and click on it, but I
sometimes keep the pane up and explore it repeatedly for various
reasons. So pinned is fine by me.
Here's on more question, which is related to this constellation of
control key-activated features: Sometimes I open (or display, is it,
really?) the Feeds feature (is it a pane?), click on one of the items
beside which "new"
has been appended, look at the updated Web page but then want to get
back to the Feeds likes. Well, I can't see how that can be done. Maybe
there's a keystroke? If not, I guess you just have to Control-J again to
bring it up once more. That's what I've been doing, but then the item in
the list representing the feed I just opened usually *still* says (new)
next to it, as if I've never clicked on it and gone to the new pageit
offers; this feels like when a read message in OE sometimes continues to
speak as unread. Any idea what I'm doing incorrectly?
Thanks.
thanks.
wish I could just get back to that Feeds list without via hoping no
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Oppermann" <chuckop at exchange.microsoft.com>
To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 11:23 AM
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Hot to toggle off IE7 History pane?
Ah, I figured it out. It depends on whether or not the various panes
(History, Favorites and Feeds) are "pinned" or not. Pressing CTRL+H
will always show the History pane, but it is not a toggle, so pressing
it again does not make it go away.
If a pane is un-pinned it overlays the text of the web page. Selecting
an item in the and pressing Enter will make the pane disappear and
focused placed back on the web page.
However, if the pane window is pinned, then it appears on the left, but
the width of the web page is reduced so they do not overlap. Selecting
an item from the pane does not make the pane disappear when it is
pinned.
So, adding Shift to the keyboard sequence makes it a toggle. Pressing
CTRL+SHIFT+H will make the History pane appear as a pinned pane.
CTRL+SHIFT+Pressing H a second time hides the pane and returns focus to
CTRL+SHIFT+the
web page.
Same is true for Favorites (CTRL+SHIFT+I) and Feeds (CTRL+SHIFT+J).
Hope this helps.
Charles Oppermann | Program Manager | Speech Components | Microsoft
Corporation http://blogs.msdn.com/chuckop/
-----Original Message-----
From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Joel Deutsch
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 8:47 AM
To: GUI-Talk
Subject: [gui-talk] Hot to toggle off IE7 History pane?
In IE 6, as in IE 7 now,I used to be able to display the browsing
history tree by pressing control H. Then I could navigate it very
simply, perhaps pressing Enter on some link in order to revisit a page
if I wished, then return to the History pane by learning a sequence of
Tab and Control Tab keystrokes that seemed to take me through some parts
of the Web page I was on plus a visit to the Tool Bar, just announce in
a general way.thouryug .
But in IE 7, I'm not sure what to do. I find that I'm still able to
display History by pressing Control H, but I can't seem to simply turn
it off the same way. I've tabbed around at that point, and been reminded
that what I encounter before getting back onto the Web page that's
loaded at the moment involves stepping through several unfamiliar stops
in what I guess is all the IE Tool Bar, but with more controls in it
than before. For instance, my tab key brings me to a History button,
which I don't remember from the IE 6 tool bar,but I have no idea what to
do with it, I mean, without seeing it and using the keyboard, of course.
Just pressing enter on it doesn't seem to do anything. I have a feeling,
from reading some of the Help files related to the History topic, that
there are arrows and other signals that tell the mouse user how to do
stuff like open a list of options or actions, or whatever. But for me,
that button is simply inert and useless, at least until someone explains
its use to me.
Anyway, if my description sounds befuddled, that's because I am. I need
what I can't seem to find in the Help files, just a description of a
typical IE 7 interface screen explaining what's there besides the Web
page you're on, how to navigate among these page elements and how to use
them. I remember there's supposed to be yet another sort of bar, what's
it called, an Information Bar or something? I don't know, it just seems
(especially when opening a page as a Tab) that sometimes I seem to get
stuck in some elaborate jungle at the top of the page (I imagine it as
the top, but I don't really know) that's got all sorts of controls,
something to do with an abbreviated Google function (no, I didn't
install the Google Tool Bar) and God knows what else, and sometimes it
takes me many presses of the Tab key through this maze, hearing
misleading stuff along the way that makes me think I'm finally on the
page itself, before I actually am on the page and ready to go.
I say that just to confess how confused this can sometimes make me,
though other times a page loads and it's plain and simple unless I go
into the address bar and then make the mistake of tabbing around and
getting lost again.
But back to the beginning. How do I simply turn off the history pane,
once I've turned it on?
thanks.
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