[gui-talk] Time to get back on track!
David Andrews
dandrews at visi.com
Tue Dec 5 16:30:10 CST 2006
Peter:
Please leave the moderation of these lists to me. A private note to
me, from anyone is always a good way to let me know how you feel.
I know these messages are off topic for this list. However, this
issue is of importance to many people and I did not think it was a
good idea to cut off discussion to early. Hopefully it is winding
down, however.
Dave
At 12:32 PM 12/5/2006, you wrote:
>Hello Dave, Jim and listers,
>
> I thought this was a discussion list for those who must use graphical
>user interfaces. For the past week this thread has run ramppid here and on
>some other NFB Lists. If you want the truth some of us are really getting
>sick and tired of it and would like to see those who have nothing better to
>do than to insult and falsely accuse our organization of this, that, and the
>other. Perhaps your time would be better spent sharing ideas for developing
>cheap money identifiers which all blind people who must know their currency
>denominations can buy for little cost. That would happen a hell of a lot
>faster than would changing our currency over to that similar to paper
>currency in other countries.
>
> Also keep in mind these facts. Yes many of these countries have paper
>currency which can be easily identified by the blind, but services for the
>blind in many of them fall short of those we have here in the states. No
>other country that I know of has a national research and training institute
>comparable to the NFB Jernigan Institute. Nor do they have adult orientation
>centers that are run by the blind for the blind. These nations have currency
>easily distinguishable by the blind, but they do not have strong
>organizations of the blind like the NFB. The UK has paper currency a blind
>person can easily identify, but they also have a tyrannical guide dog
>organization that refused to give a blind person I've personally talked to a
>replacement guide dog unless she agreed not to use escalators with it when
>she traveled; something American guide dog users do as a matter of course.
>And speaking of Iraq I'm not sure about their paper currency, but with
>respect for the standard of living and services for the blind in that
>country our prayers and thoughts go out to them in this time of turmoil.
>
> If you asked me having unidentifiable paper currency is a small price to
>pay when you consider the type of agencies and organizations for the blind
>in this country. If the ACB thinks it can come up with solutions to this
>problem let them get busy and develop the solution and leave us alone!! This
>is a far more positive approach than what we've seen on these lists all week
>long. Now can we get back to discussing the graphical user interface and
>take this thread to more appropriate forums, or drop it all together? I was
>tired of it after just seeing a few hours of these messages when it started.
>Take care everyone and have a great day.
>
>Peter Donahue
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Jim Antonacci" <jjantonacci at verizon.net>
>To: "'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 8:21 AM
>Subject: Re: [gui-talk] National Federation
>oftheBlindCommentsonFederalCourtRuling on U.S. Currency
>
>
>Since this is what you mistakenly believe about me and my organization, I
>believe you should remove me from any and all forwarding lists you maintain.
>Personally, I thought you were much smarter than that.
>
>Jim Antonacci, WA3EHD
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]On
>Behalf Of Anthony Vece
>Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 2:05 AM
>To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [gui-talk] National Federation
>oftheBlindCommentsonFederalCourtRuling on U.S. Currency
>
>
>Hi Andy;
>
>You have just confirmed my thinking that the NFB is a dictatorship.
>
>and, it uses a totalitarian form of government.
>
>Kind of like what we just got rid of in Iraq.
>
>Anthony
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Baracco, Andrew W
> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
> Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 1:29 PM
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] National Federation
>oftheBlindCommentsonFederalCourtRuling on U.S. Currency
>
>
> When i belonged to the NFB, I asked what you do if you disagree with a
> position taken by the organization. I was basically told that you keep
> quiet. When I asked what you should do if you disagree with most of the
> positions taken by the organization, I was told that you should join
> another organization, so I did.
>
> Andy
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On Behalf Of Seville Allen
> Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 12:46 PM
> To: 'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] National Federation
> oftheBlindCommentsonFederalCourt Ruling on U.S. Currency
>
> What happens is the policy is changed through our resolution process
> which is how our NFB policy is made.
> One can look at resolutions through the years as they are posted on the
> NFB website.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On Behalf Of Joel Deutsch
> Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 3:20 PM
> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] National Federation of
> theBlindCommentsonFederalCourt Ruling on U.S. Currency
>
> As an outsider to the NFB, I have to ask a basic thing: When a lot of
> members disagree with enough policy positions of the NFB leadership, are
> there periodic nationwide elections where two or more candidates run
> for the top posts, and new leadership can be voted in? Or are the top
> positions more like job appointments of indefinite duration?
>
> Thanks. I know it's a really basic question about organizational
> structure, but I've heard about national conventions and so forth, but
> never about elections of any sort.
>
> Thanks.
> nd ndefniite to wish for a idifferent olicty p9o
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: George and Pamela Dominguez
> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
> Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 11:51 AM
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] National Federation of the
> BlindCommentsonFederalCourt Ruling on U.S. Currency
>
>
> As long as we support the NFB, I don't think they can demand that we
> agree with every single thing. After all, we are individuals who belong
> to an organization of people who are blind. I don't agree with
> everything all the way, but when I don't, I don't make a fuss. I just
> keep it to myself if I can't get somebody to convince me why I should
> change my mind. I still believe in the principles of the NFB, and I'm
> glad we have it. Pam.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Doug Lee" <dgl at dlee.org>
> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 2:29 PM
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] National Federation of the
> BlindCommentsonFederalCourt Ruling on U.S. Currency
>
>
> > I must giggle at this, then hesitantly and hopefully briefly reply:
> >
> > I think we all agree that inaccessible computers deny us jobs.
> > Computers and money do have in common the trait of being hard to live
> > without these days. However, whereas I'm sure a list of jobs
> > impossible without computer access would fall together in a hurry on
> > the slightest public prompting, I doubt a list of jobs impossible
> > without tactily identifiable money would so easily form. Witness the
> > existence of this very mailing list to address the need to make
> > computers accessible, and as far as I know, the profound absence of
> > such a list for the problems we have handling money. Money-Talk, or
> > would that be Money-Talks? Hmm. <grin>
> >
> > My personal view, in case anyone wants it: I would like identifiable
> > money, but I believe it will be extremely expensive to make that
> > happen unless someone manages a way to do it that requires no
> > modification to the myriad money readers out there--laundry machines,
> > change machines, soda machines, etc. I believe the money modification
> > should have been made when other changes were being made to reduce
> > counterfitting, and I even think the NFB defended this position at the
> > time. I think the strongest argument against changing money for blind
> > people is not what it will make people think of blindness, but as Mike
> > said, what danger we place current laws in by trying to use them to
> > accomplish such a mountainous task. Were it me, I would not spend my
> > money fighting this, but I would neither go to the barricades and
> > assert it as necessary. Finally, I hope the outcome of this is,
> > ultimately, a change in US money, even if it occurs as part of
> > something else, and even if not immediately.
> >
> > Disclaimer, if that's what it is: I am an NFB member and have been
> > since about 1984. If I disagree with an NFB policy, I know where to
> > go to speak my mind.
> >
> > On Fri, Dec 01, 2006 at 12:21:21AM -0600, jaybee wrote:
> > There's just as little need to change the currency to make it
> accessible
> as
> > there is to change the computer to make it accessible. Regards, Jesse
> > "To err is human; to forgive divine (Alexander Pope, 1688.")
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "denise avant" <dravant at ameritech.net>
> > To: "'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> > Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 8:47 PM
> > Subject: Re: [gui-talk] National Federation of the
> > BlindCommentsonFederalCourt Ruling on U.S. Currency
> >
> >
> > Well glad you know how the court things before there is ever any oral
> > argument. It's strange that we ask that printed materials be put in
> > accessible format such as braille electronic files or tape. Or we ask
> that
> > the bus system be made more accessible so we can know when our stops
> are
> > coming or that elevators have braille and large print on them so we
> can
> know
> > what floor we're getting off of. When there is an nfb convention, the
> rooms
> > are marked in braille. Why because we are blind and cannot see to read
> > print. But when it comes to one of the most important things in the
> world,
> > knowing what money you have the instant its given to you, oh that's
> not a
> > good thing because of blindness.
> > The reason why people are not cheated on a wide scale basis is because
> we
> > take all of these extra steps that sighted people never have to do to
> avoid
> > being cheated. And I've heard more than a few instances of where
> people
> have
> > accidentally given a wrong bill and lost a lot of money. I can say I'm
> not
> > one of them. But I'm still glad the judge realizes that this is
> important.
> > Quite frankly if the u.s. supreme court could fool the criminal
> defense
> bar
> > with the crawford decision two years ago, don't be so sure that the
> judge's
> > decision will be reversed on appeal.
> >
> > s
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On
> > Behalf Of Mike Freeman
> > Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 8:21 PM
> > To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [gui-talk] National Federation of the Blind
> > CommentsonFederalCourt Ruling on U.S. Currency
> >
> > If the case is appealed as it most assuredly will be, the appeal will
> win.
> > And what will have been gained? Nothing. And much could be lost if the
> > decision rejecting the lawsuit on appeal is broader and abolishes some
> of
> > the protections we now have under Section 504, the underlying statue.
> >
> > Moreover, under most circumstances in which someone would be cheated,
> > cashiers' drawers must balance at the end of the day. I deny the
> implication
> > that numerous blind persons have been ripped off.
> >
> > I wouldn't object if currency were modified for other reasons. But
> blindness
> > certainly is not a sufficient reason IMO to do so.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "denise avant" <dravant at ameritech.net>
> > To: "'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 8:00 PM
> > Subject: Re: [gui-talk] National Federation of the Blind Comments
> > onFederalCourt Ruling on U.S. Currency
> >
> >
> > Hello,
> > Dr. Mauer and others are correct in saying that there are many more
> > important issues like jobs and access to printed material that touch
> the
> > blind community. But this doesn't mean that having paper money is not
> > important. I've been working for years now. Before I had a job, I
> still
> had
> > to know how to tell what little money I did have. Once I retire the
> same
> > will be true. There is no question, money is very important all over
> the
> > world let alone the u.s. and it would be helpful to be able to know
> right
> > away what bill you are getting.
> > So often, I've been assisted by people who are from other countries.
> The
> > British for example are shocked that all of our paper money is the
> same
> > size. And they want to know how do I know someone is not cheating me.
> Even
> > my friends and assistants want to know how I know what paper money I
> have.
> > And it would be great if I didn't have to go through various steps and
> > stages to fold money in different ways so I would know this is a
> twenty or
> > ten etc.
> > Quite frankly, I'm glad that the judge recognized that being able to
> know
> > what a bill is by feel if not by sight is an important thing.
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On
> > Behalf Of Mike Arrigo
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 7:50 PM
> > To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [gui-talk] National Federation of the Blind Comments on
> > FederalCourt Ruling on U.S. Currency
> >
> > It's times like this that I'm reminded why I have nothing to do with
> the
> > federation. I'm certainly not saying everyone in the federation is
> this
> way,
> > but you have to wonder where some of this logic comes from.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Will Smith" <wilsmith at iglou.com>
> > To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 5:30 PM
> > Subject: Re: [gui-talk] National Federation of the Blind Comments on
> Federal
> > Court Ruling on U.S. Currency
> >
> >
> >
> > I continue to marvel at the positions NFB top brass take on things
> like
> > distinct money markings or shapes.
> >
> > I guess if you have enough power and position then money just doesnt
> matter
> > much.
> >
> > Will
> > wilsmith at iglou.com
> > On Wed, 29 Nov 2006, Reinhard Stebner
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I really do not understand the NFB's stand on this. I think having
> > > money that I can tell at a glance what it is makes me more
> independent
> > > from machines, fraud and enables me to be more independent. How do
> > > other blind people think about this?
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> > > On Behalf Of David Andrews
> > > Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 3:53 PM
> > > To: dtb-talk at nfbnet.org; dandrews at visi.com;
> diabetes-talk at nfbnet.org;
> > > promotion-technology at nfbnet.org; " nabs-l"@nfbnet.org; "
> > nfbcs"@nfbnet.org;
> > > blindtlk at nfbnet.org; nfb-announce at nfbnet.org; " nfbmo"@nfbnet.org;
> > > nfb-science at nfbnet.org; " journalists"@nfbnet.org;
> > > gui-talk at nfbnet.org; blindkid at nfbnet.org; napub at nfbnet.org;
> > > nabop at nfbnet.org; blparent at nfbnet.org; cabs-talk at nfbnet.org; "
> > > nfb-reno-l"@nfbnet.org; nfb-river-city at nfbnet.org; "
> > > nfb-sf"@nfbnet.org; nfbc-info at nfbnet.org; nfbofncp at nfbnet.org;
> > > trainer-talk at nfbnet.org; " electronics-talk"@nfbnet.org;
> > > nfb-talk at nfbnet.org; " tops-2005"@nfbnet.org; "
> rocketon"@nfbnet.org;
> > > nopbc-board at nfbnet.org; nfb-newsline-sponsors at nfbnet.org;
> > > nfb-imagination-fund at nfbnet.org; " new-horizons"@nfbnet.org; "
> > > ncbys"@nfbnet.org;
> > nabs-presidents at nfbnet.org;
> > > gama-summit at nfbnet.org; nfbwatlk at nfbnet.org; nfb-idaho at nfbnet.org;
> > > mt-blind at nfbnet.org; " cabs"@nfbnet.org; colorado-talk at nfbnet.org; "
> > > nfbaz-talk"@nfbnet.org; mabs at nfbnet.org; oabs at nfbnet.org;
> > > greater-baltimore at nfbnet.org; " nfbf-l"@nfbnet.org;
> > > 4alabama at nfbnet.org; " vabs"@nfbnet.org; " mn-abs"@nfbnet.org;
> > > nfbmi-talk at nfbnet.org; " mi-abs"@nfbnet.org; il-talk at nfbnet.org;
> > > iabs-talk at nfbnet.org; " nebraska-students"@nfbnet.org; "
> > > tn-talk"@nfbnet.org;
> > vendtalk at nfbnet.org;
> > > " nagdu"@nfbnet.org; " nyagdu"@nfbnet.org; " ag-eq"@nfbnet.org;
> > > arizona-students at nfbnet.org; " nfb-kzoo"@nfbnet.org; "
> > > reader-users"@nfbnet.org; nabentre at nfbnet.org; " nfbj"@nfbnet.org; "
> > > nfb-db"@nfbnet.org; nfb-fundraising at nfbnet.org; "
> > faith-talk"@nfbnet.org;
> > > " lions-ed"@nfbnet.org; nfb-lions at nfbnet.org; "
> > ncme-mentoring"@nfbnet.org;
> > > " nfbwv-talk"@nfbnet.org; blindlaw at nfbnet.org;
> nfb-editors at nfbnet.org;
> > > " humanser"@nfbnet.org; rehab at nfbnet.org; nfbpnotk at nfbnet.org; "
> > > musictlk"@nfbnet.org; " nosb"@nfbnet.org; stylist at nfbnet.org; "
> > > sportsandrec"@nfbnet.org; " nobe-l"@nfbnet.org;
> > > travelandtourism at nfbnet.org; " teachvib"@nfbnet.org; "
> > nfb-web"@nfbnet.org;
> > > ccb-alumni at nfbnet.org; " la-students"@nfbnet.org; "
> > > nfb-cars"@nfbnet.org; nfb-hi at nfbnet.org; " nfbkabs"@nfbnet.org; "
> > > nfbkpbc"@nfbnet.org; nfbofncp at nfbnet.org; " tabs"@nfbnet.org;
> > > dtb-talk at nfbnet.org
> > > Subject: [gui-talk] National Federation of the Blind Comments on
> > > Federal Court Ruling on U.S. Currency
> > >
> > > National Federation of the Blind Comments
> > >
> > >
> > > on Federal Court Ruling on U.S. Currency
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Views Effort as Dangerously Misguided
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Baltimore, Maryland (November 29, 2006): The National Federation of
> > > the Blind, the largest organization of blind persons in America and
> > > known as the voice of the nation's blind, criticized as dangerously
> > > misguided a federal court ruling saying that the design of U.S.
> > > currency discriminates against the blind.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind,
> > > said: "The blind need jobs and real opportunities to earn money, not
> > > feel-good gimmicks that misinform the public about our capabilities.
> > > Blind people transact business with paper money every day. This
> > > ruling puts a roadblock in the way of solving the real problem,
> which
> > > is the seventy percent unemployment rate among working-age blind
> > > Americans that severely limits our access to cash. The ruling will
> do
> > > nothing to alleviate that situation; in fact, it seriously endangers
> > > the ability of the blind to get jobs and participate fully in
> society.
> > > It argues that the blind cannot handle currency or documents in the
> > > workplace and that virtually everything must be modified for the use
> > > of the blind. An employer who believes that every piece of printed
> > > material in the workplace must be specially designed so that the
> blind
> > > can read it will have a strong incentive not to hire a blind
> person."
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Maurer went on to enumerate the real needs for access to information
> > > by the blind and made a distinction between those needs and the
> issue
> > > of identifying currency. "Access to information of all kinds, such
> as
> > > that contained on Internet Web sites and in the press, is certainly
> > > critical to the ability of the blind to become productive members of
> > > society. Blind students need educational materials in Braille and
> > > other alternative formats so that they can prepare for employment
> and
> > > ultimately earn an income for themselves and their families. Given
> > > the urgent need for access to the kind of information that is
> required
> > > for success in America's information economy, the matter of
> > > identifying the denominations of paper bills is of relatively little
> > > concern."
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Blind people traditionally identify paper currency by folding bills
> of
> > > different denominations in different ways. "In reality, blind
> people
> > > do not routinely find that we have been short-changed," Maurer
> > > commented. Machines are readily available to identify paper money
> for
> > > blind people who run businesses or handle large amounts of cash.
> > > "Essentially, the United States Treasury has been ordered by the
> > > courts to come up with a solution for a nonexistent problem," Maurer
> > > said.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The National Federation of the Blind believes that with training and
> > > opportunity, blind people can compete in the world with only minor
> > > modifications. The American Council of the Blind, which brought the
> > > lawsuit against the United States Treasury, promotes the view that
> the
> > > blind are unable to compete unless the world is modified
> dramatically
> > > and specifically for blind people, and that the blind must be made
> > > objects of care and pity rather than equal participants in society.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > John G. Par? Jr.
> > > Director of Public Relations
> > > NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND
> > > 1800 Johnson Street
> > > Baltimore, Maryland 21230
> > > Telephone: (410) 659-9314, ext. 2371
> > > Cell phone: (410) 913-3912
> > > Fax: (410) 685-5653
> > > Email: jpare at nfb.org
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > gui-talk mailing list
> > > gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > gui-talk mailing list
> > > gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> --
> > ----
> >
> >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > gui-talk mailing list
> > > gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk
> > >
> >
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> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > _______________________________________________
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> >
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> >
> > --
> > Doug Lee dgl at dlee.org
> > SSB + BART Group doug.lee at ssbbartgroup.com
> http://www.ssbbartgroup.com
> > "Never does the human soul appear so strong as when it foregoes
> > revenge, and dares forgive an injury." --E. H. Chapin
> > _______________________________________________
> > gui-talk mailing list
> > gui-talk at nfbnet.org
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>
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>
>
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David Andrews and white cane Harry.
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