[gui-talk] Time to get back on track!
Joel Deutsch
jdeutsch at dslextreme.com
Tue Dec 5 13:09:43 CST 2006
Peter,
I'm sorry, but you begin this post by complaining about how digressive from the list's purpose this thread is and telling everyone to stop discussing the topic. Whereupon you proceed to write a couple of screens' worth of your own best idea on the issue, which begins with your positing a logically spurious comparison between currency styles and levels of blind services and enlightened government policies in other countries. As if it's because they have identifiable currency that the blind fare so poorly in this country or that. Not true. You may have meant to use this as an affecting *irony*, maybe but that's as far as you can take it without running way off track in terms of logic when it comes to establishing causal relationships. The obverse-- that there are good blind resources in the U.S., of which you hold up an NFB resource as the highest example, exist (because* we don't have identifiable currency, is of course not true, but saying that might point up that the first thing isn't true, either, unless you're meaning to ascribe horrible motives to the European countries and others, as if they've all got different-sized bills and such out of guilt over their insufficient helpfulness to the blind, and this is their way of letting themselves off the hook. Is *that* what you mean? either way, it's not good reasoning.
Then, just for good measure you throw in some blessings for Iraq as if the country were a sick hospital patient in Pittsburgh and we were all going to have a long-distance prayer healing on their behalf, with no meaningful connection in this to something to do with blind welfare.
Please, enough of this. Let's indeed get back to business, and let's stop all the increasingly propaganda-like pronouncements. I should think some of you'd would surely be embarrassed by now, with the exception of a very few NFB listers who've articulated carefully their objections to recent criticism, in a civil manner. It's just getting too much already.
Thank you.
----- Original Message -----
From: Peter Donahue
To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 10:32 AM
Subject: [gui-talk] Time to get back on track!
Hello Dave, Jim and listers,
I thought this was a discussion list for those who must use graphical
user interfaces. For the past week this thread has run ramppid here and on
some other NFB Lists. If you want the truth some of us are really getting
sick and tired of it and would like to see those who have nothing better to
do than to insult and falsely accuse our organization of this, that, and the
other. Perhaps your time would be better spent sharing ideas for developing
cheap money identifiers which all blind people who must know their currency
denominations can buy for little cost. That would happen a hell of a lot
faster than would changing our currency over to that similar to paper
currency in other countries.
Also keep in mind these facts. Yes many of these countries have paper
currency which can be easily identified by the blind, but services for the
blind in many of them fall short of those we have here in the states. No
other country that I know of has a national research and training institute
comparable to the NFB Jernigan Institute. Nor do they have adult orientation
centers that are run by the blind for the blind. These nations have currency
easily distinguishable by the blind, but they do not have strong
organizations of the blind like the NFB. The UK has paper currency a blind
person can easily identify, but they also have a tyrannical guide dog
organization that refused to give a blind person I've personally talked to a
replacement guide dog unless she agreed not to use escalators with it when
she traveled; something American guide dog users do as a matter of course.
And speaking of Iraq I'm not sure about their paper currency, but with
respect for the standard of living and services for the blind in that
country our prayers and thoughts go out to them in this time of turmoil.
If you asked me having unidentifiable paper currency is a small price to
pay when you consider the type of agencies and organizations for the blind
in this country. If the ACB thinks it can come up with solutions to this
problem let them get busy and develop the solution and leave us alone!! This
is a far more positive approach than what we've seen on these lists all week
long. Now can we get back to discussing the graphical user interface and
take this thread to more appropriate forums, or drop it all together? I was
tired of it after just seeing a few hours of these messages when it started.
Take care everyone and have a great day.
Peter Donahue
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Antonacci" <jjantonacci at verizon.net>
To: "'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 8:21 AM
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] National Federation
oftheBlindCommentsonFederalCourtRuling on U.S. Currency
Since this is what you mistakenly believe about me and my organization, I
believe you should remove me from any and all forwarding lists you maintain.
Personally, I thought you were much smarter than that.
Jim Antonacci, WA3EHD
-----Original Message-----
From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]On
Behalf Of Anthony Vece
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 2:05 AM
To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] National Federation
oftheBlindCommentsonFederalCourtRuling on U.S. Currency
Hi Andy;
You have just confirmed my thinking that the NFB is a dictatorship.
and, it uses a totalitarian form of government.
Kind of like what we just got rid of in Iraq.
Anthony
----- Original Message -----
From: Baracco, Andrew W
To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 1:29 PM
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] National Federation
oftheBlindCommentsonFederalCourtRuling on U.S. Currency
When i belonged to the NFB, I asked what you do if you disagree with a
position taken by the organization. I was basically told that you keep
quiet. When I asked what you should do if you disagree with most of the
positions taken by the organization, I was told that you should join
another organization, so I did.
Andy
-----Original Message-----
From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Seville Allen
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 12:46 PM
To: 'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] National Federation
oftheBlindCommentsonFederalCourt Ruling on U.S. Currency
What happens is the policy is changed through our resolution process
which is how our NFB policy is made.
One can look at resolutions through the years as they are posted on the
NFB website.
-----Original Message-----
From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Joel Deutsch
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 3:20 PM
To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] National Federation of
theBlindCommentsonFederalCourt Ruling on U.S. Currency
As an outsider to the NFB, I have to ask a basic thing: When a lot of
members disagree with enough policy positions of the NFB leadership, are
there periodic nationwide elections where two or more candidates run
for the top posts, and new leadership can be voted in? Or are the top
positions more like job appointments of indefinite duration?
Thanks. I know it's a really basic question about organizational
structure, but I've heard about national conventions and so forth, but
never about elections of any sort.
Thanks.
nd ndefniite to wish for a idifferent olicty p9o
----- Original Message -----
From: George and Pamela Dominguez
To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 11:51 AM
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] National Federation of the
BlindCommentsonFederalCourt Ruling on U.S. Currency
As long as we support the NFB, I don't think they can demand that we
agree with every single thing. After all, we are individuals who belong
to an organization of people who are blind. I don't agree with
everything all the way, but when I don't, I don't make a fuss. I just
keep it to myself if I can't get somebody to convince me why I should
change my mind. I still believe in the principles of the NFB, and I'm
glad we have it. Pam.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug Lee" <dgl at dlee.org>
To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 2:29 PM
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] National Federation of the
BlindCommentsonFederalCourt Ruling on U.S. Currency
> I must giggle at this, then hesitantly and hopefully briefly reply:
>
> I think we all agree that inaccessible computers deny us jobs.
> Computers and money do have in common the trait of being hard to live
> without these days. However, whereas I'm sure a list of jobs
> impossible without computer access would fall together in a hurry on
> the slightest public prompting, I doubt a list of jobs impossible
> without tactily identifiable money would so easily form. Witness the
> existence of this very mailing list to address the need to make
> computers accessible, and as far as I know, the profound absence of
> such a list for the problems we have handling money. Money-Talk, or
> would that be Money-Talks? Hmm. <grin>
>
> My personal view, in case anyone wants it: I would like identifiable
> money, but I believe it will be extremely expensive to make that
> happen unless someone manages a way to do it that requires no
> modification to the myriad money readers out there--laundry machines,
> change machines, soda machines, etc. I believe the money modification
> should have been made when other changes were being made to reduce
> counterfitting, and I even think the NFB defended this position at the
> time. I think the strongest argument against changing money for blind
> people is not what it will make people think of blindness, but as Mike
> said, what danger we place current laws in by trying to use them to
> accomplish such a mountainous task. Were it me, I would not spend my
> money fighting this, but I would neither go to the barricades and
> assert it as necessary. Finally, I hope the outcome of this is,
> ultimately, a change in US money, even if it occurs as part of
> something else, and even if not immediately.
>
> Disclaimer, if that's what it is: I am an NFB member and have been
> since about 1984. If I disagree with an NFB policy, I know where to
> go to speak my mind.
>
> On Fri, Dec 01, 2006 at 12:21:21AM -0600, jaybee wrote:
> There's just as little need to change the currency to make it
accessible
as
> there is to change the computer to make it accessible. Regards, Jesse
> "To err is human; to forgive divine (Alexander Pope, 1688.")
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "denise avant" <dravant at ameritech.net>
> To: "'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 8:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] National Federation of the
> BlindCommentsonFederalCourt Ruling on U.S. Currency
>
>
> Well glad you know how the court things before there is ever any oral
> argument. It's strange that we ask that printed materials be put in
> accessible format such as braille electronic files or tape. Or we ask
that
> the bus system be made more accessible so we can know when our stops
are
> coming or that elevators have braille and large print on them so we
can
know
> what floor we're getting off of. When there is an nfb convention, the
rooms
> are marked in braille. Why because we are blind and cannot see to read
> print. But when it comes to one of the most important things in the
world,
> knowing what money you have the instant its given to you, oh that's
not a
> good thing because of blindness.
> The reason why people are not cheated on a wide scale basis is because
we
> take all of these extra steps that sighted people never have to do to
avoid
> being cheated. And I've heard more than a few instances of where
people
have
> accidentally given a wrong bill and lost a lot of money. I can say I'm
not
> one of them. But I'm still glad the judge realizes that this is
important.
> Quite frankly if the u.s. supreme court could fool the criminal
defense
bar
> with the crawford decision two years ago, don't be so sure that the
judge's
> decision will be reversed on appeal.
>
> s
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On
> Behalf Of Mike Freeman
> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 8:21 PM
> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] National Federation of the Blind
> CommentsonFederalCourt Ruling on U.S. Currency
>
> If the case is appealed as it most assuredly will be, the appeal will
win.
> And what will have been gained? Nothing. And much could be lost if the
> decision rejecting the lawsuit on appeal is broader and abolishes some
of
> the protections we now have under Section 504, the underlying statue.
>
> Moreover, under most circumstances in which someone would be cheated,
> cashiers' drawers must balance at the end of the day. I deny the
implication
> that numerous blind persons have been ripped off.
>
> I wouldn't object if currency were modified for other reasons. But
blindness
> certainly is not a sufficient reason IMO to do so.
>
> Mike
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "denise avant" <dravant at ameritech.net>
> To: "'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 8:00 PM
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] National Federation of the Blind Comments
> onFederalCourt Ruling on U.S. Currency
>
>
> Hello,
> Dr. Mauer and others are correct in saying that there are many more
> important issues like jobs and access to printed material that touch
the
> blind community. But this doesn't mean that having paper money is not
> important. I've been working for years now. Before I had a job, I
still
had
> to know how to tell what little money I did have. Once I retire the
same
> will be true. There is no question, money is very important all over
the
> world let alone the u.s. and it would be helpful to be able to know
right
> away what bill you are getting.
> So often, I've been assisted by people who are from other countries.
The
> British for example are shocked that all of our paper money is the
same
> size. And they want to know how do I know someone is not cheating me.
Even
> my friends and assistants want to know how I know what paper money I
have.
> And it would be great if I didn't have to go through various steps and
> stages to fold money in different ways so I would know this is a
twenty or
> ten etc.
> Quite frankly, I'm glad that the judge recognized that being able to
know
> what a bill is by feel if not by sight is an important thing.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On
> Behalf Of Mike Arrigo
> Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 7:50 PM
> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] National Federation of the Blind Comments on
> FederalCourt Ruling on U.S. Currency
>
> It's times like this that I'm reminded why I have nothing to do with
the
> federation. I'm certainly not saying everyone in the federation is
this
way,
> but you have to wonder where some of this logic comes from.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Will Smith" <wilsmith at iglou.com>
> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 5:30 PM
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] National Federation of the Blind Comments on
Federal
> Court Ruling on U.S. Currency
>
>
>
> I continue to marvel at the positions NFB top brass take on things
like
> distinct money markings or shapes.
>
> I guess if you have enough power and position then money just doesnt
matter
> much.
>
> Will
> wilsmith at iglou.com
> On Wed, 29 Nov 2006, Reinhard Stebner
> wrote:
>
> > I really do not understand the NFB's stand on this. I think having
> > money that I can tell at a glance what it is makes me more
independent
> > from machines, fraud and enables me to be more independent. How do
> > other blind people think about this?
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
[mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> > On Behalf Of David Andrews
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 3:53 PM
> > To: dtb-talk at nfbnet.org; dandrews at visi.com;
diabetes-talk at nfbnet.org;
> > promotion-technology at nfbnet.org; " nabs-l"@nfbnet.org; "
> nfbcs"@nfbnet.org;
> > blindtlk at nfbnet.org; nfb-announce at nfbnet.org; " nfbmo"@nfbnet.org;
> > nfb-science at nfbnet.org; " journalists"@nfbnet.org;
> > gui-talk at nfbnet.org; blindkid at nfbnet.org; napub at nfbnet.org;
> > nabop at nfbnet.org; blparent at nfbnet.org; cabs-talk at nfbnet.org; "
> > nfb-reno-l"@nfbnet.org; nfb-river-city at nfbnet.org; "
> > nfb-sf"@nfbnet.org; nfbc-info at nfbnet.org; nfbofncp at nfbnet.org;
> > trainer-talk at nfbnet.org; " electronics-talk"@nfbnet.org;
> > nfb-talk at nfbnet.org; " tops-2005"@nfbnet.org; "
rocketon"@nfbnet.org;
> > nopbc-board at nfbnet.org; nfb-newsline-sponsors at nfbnet.org;
> > nfb-imagination-fund at nfbnet.org; " new-horizons"@nfbnet.org; "
> > ncbys"@nfbnet.org;
> nabs-presidents at nfbnet.org;
> > gama-summit at nfbnet.org; nfbwatlk at nfbnet.org; nfb-idaho at nfbnet.org;
> > mt-blind at nfbnet.org; " cabs"@nfbnet.org; colorado-talk at nfbnet.org; "
> > nfbaz-talk"@nfbnet.org; mabs at nfbnet.org; oabs at nfbnet.org;
> > greater-baltimore at nfbnet.org; " nfbf-l"@nfbnet.org;
> > 4alabama at nfbnet.org; " vabs"@nfbnet.org; " mn-abs"@nfbnet.org;
> > nfbmi-talk at nfbnet.org; " mi-abs"@nfbnet.org; il-talk at nfbnet.org;
> > iabs-talk at nfbnet.org; " nebraska-students"@nfbnet.org; "
> > tn-talk"@nfbnet.org;
> vendtalk at nfbnet.org;
> > " nagdu"@nfbnet.org; " nyagdu"@nfbnet.org; " ag-eq"@nfbnet.org;
> > arizona-students at nfbnet.org; " nfb-kzoo"@nfbnet.org; "
> > reader-users"@nfbnet.org; nabentre at nfbnet.org; " nfbj"@nfbnet.org; "
> > nfb-db"@nfbnet.org; nfb-fundraising at nfbnet.org; "
> faith-talk"@nfbnet.org;
> > " lions-ed"@nfbnet.org; nfb-lions at nfbnet.org; "
> ncme-mentoring"@nfbnet.org;
> > " nfbwv-talk"@nfbnet.org; blindlaw at nfbnet.org;
nfb-editors at nfbnet.org;
> > " humanser"@nfbnet.org; rehab at nfbnet.org; nfbpnotk at nfbnet.org; "
> > musictlk"@nfbnet.org; " nosb"@nfbnet.org; stylist at nfbnet.org; "
> > sportsandrec"@nfbnet.org; " nobe-l"@nfbnet.org;
> > travelandtourism at nfbnet.org; " teachvib"@nfbnet.org; "
> nfb-web"@nfbnet.org;
> > ccb-alumni at nfbnet.org; " la-students"@nfbnet.org; "
> > nfb-cars"@nfbnet.org; nfb-hi at nfbnet.org; " nfbkabs"@nfbnet.org; "
> > nfbkpbc"@nfbnet.org; nfbofncp at nfbnet.org; " tabs"@nfbnet.org;
> > dtb-talk at nfbnet.org
> > Subject: [gui-talk] National Federation of the Blind Comments on
> > Federal Court Ruling on U.S. Currency
> >
> > National Federation of the Blind Comments
> >
> >
> > on Federal Court Ruling on U.S. Currency
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Views Effort as Dangerously Misguided
> >
> >
> >
> > Baltimore, Maryland (November 29, 2006): The National Federation of
> > the Blind, the largest organization of blind persons in America and
> > known as the voice of the nation's blind, criticized as dangerously
> > misguided a federal court ruling saying that the design of U.S.
> > currency discriminates against the blind.
> >
> >
> >
> > Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind,
> > said: "The blind need jobs and real opportunities to earn money, not
> > feel-good gimmicks that misinform the public about our capabilities.
> > Blind people transact business with paper money every day. This
> > ruling puts a roadblock in the way of solving the real problem,
which
> > is the seventy percent unemployment rate among working-age blind
> > Americans that severely limits our access to cash. The ruling will
do
> > nothing to alleviate that situation; in fact, it seriously endangers
> > the ability of the blind to get jobs and participate fully in
society.
> > It argues that the blind cannot handle currency or documents in the
> > workplace and that virtually everything must be modified for the use
> > of the blind. An employer who believes that every piece of printed
> > material in the workplace must be specially designed so that the
blind
> > can read it will have a strong incentive not to hire a blind
person."
> >
> >
> >
> > Maurer went on to enumerate the real needs for access to information
> > by the blind and made a distinction between those needs and the
issue
> > of identifying currency. "Access to information of all kinds, such
as
> > that contained on Internet Web sites and in the press, is certainly
> > critical to the ability of the blind to become productive members of
> > society. Blind students need educational materials in Braille and
> > other alternative formats so that they can prepare for employment
and
> > ultimately earn an income for themselves and their families. Given
> > the urgent need for access to the kind of information that is
required
> > for success in America's information economy, the matter of
> > identifying the denominations of paper bills is of relatively little
> > concern."
> >
> >
> >
> > Blind people traditionally identify paper currency by folding bills
of
> > different denominations in different ways. "In reality, blind
people
> > do not routinely find that we have been short-changed," Maurer
> > commented. Machines are readily available to identify paper money
for
> > blind people who run businesses or handle large amounts of cash.
> > "Essentially, the United States Treasury has been ordered by the
> > courts to come up with a solution for a nonexistent problem," Maurer
> > said.
> >
> >
> >
> > The National Federation of the Blind believes that with training and
> > opportunity, blind people can compete in the world with only minor
> > modifications. The American Council of the Blind, which brought the
> > lawsuit against the United States Treasury, promotes the view that
the
> > blind are unable to compete unless the world is modified
dramatically
> > and specifically for blind people, and that the blind must be made
> > objects of care and pity rather than equal participants in society.
> >
> >
> >
> > John G. Par? Jr.
> > Director of Public Relations
> > NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND
> > 1800 Johnson Street
> > Baltimore, Maryland 21230
> > Telephone: (410) 659-9314, ext. 2371
> > Cell phone: (410) 913-3912
> > Fax: (410) 685-5653
> > Email: jpare at nfb.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > gui-talk mailing list
> > gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > gui-talk mailing list
> > gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk
> >
>
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
--
> ----
>
>
> > _______________________________________________
> > gui-talk mailing list
> > gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> gui-talk mailing list
> gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk
>
> _______________________________________________
> gui-talk mailing list
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>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
> --
> Doug Lee dgl at dlee.org
> SSB + BART Group doug.lee at ssbbartgroup.com
http://www.ssbbartgroup.com
> "Never does the human soul appear so strong as when it foregoes
> revenge, and dares forgive an injury." --E. H. Chapin
> _______________________________________________
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-------------- next part --------------
Peter,
I'm sorry, but you begin this post by complaining about how digressive from the list's purpose this thread is and telling everyone to stop discussing the topic. Whereupon you proceed to write a couple of screens' worth of your own best idea on the issue, which begins with your positing a logically spurious comparison between currency styles and levels of blind services and enlightened government policies in other countries. As if it's because they have identifiable currency that the blind fare so poorly in this country or that. Not true. You may have meant to use this as an affecting *irony*, maybe but that's as far as you can take it without running way off track in terms of logic when it comes to establishing causal relationships. The obverse-- that there are good blind resources in the U.S., of which you hold up an NFB resource as the highest example, exist (because* we don't have identifiable currency, is of course not true, but saying that might point up that the first thing isn't true, either, unless you're meaning to ascribe horrible motives to the European countries and others, as if they've all got different-sized bills and such out of guilt over their insufficient helpfulness to the blind, and this is their way of letting themselves off the hook. Is *that* what you mean? either way, it's not good reasoning.
Then, just for good measure you throw in some blessings for Iraq as if the country were a sick hospital patient in Pittsburgh and we were all going to have a long-distance prayer healing on their behalf, with no meaningful connection in this to something to do with blind welfare.
Please, enough of this. Let's indeed get back to business, and let's stop all the increasingly propaganda-like pronouncements. I should think some of you'd would surely be embarrassed by now, with the exception of a very few NFB listers who've articulated carefully their objections to recent criticism, in a civil manner. It's just getting too much already.
Thank you.
----- Original Message -----
From:
mailto:pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net Peter Donahue
To:
mailto:gui-talk at nfbnet.org NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
Sent:
Tuesday, December 05, 2006 10:32 AM
Subject:
[gui-talk] Time to get back on track!
Hello Dave, Jim and listers,
I thought this was a discussion list for those who must use graphical
user interfaces. For the past week this thread has run ramppid here and on
some other NFB Lists. If you want the truth some of us are really getting
sick and tired of it and would like to see those who have nothing better to
do than to insult and falsely accuse our organization of this, that, and the
other. Perhaps your time would be better spent sharing ideas for developing
cheap money identifiers which all blind people who must know their currency
denominations can buy for little cost. That would happen a hell of a lot
faster than would changing our currency over to that similar to paper
currency in other countries.
Also keep in mind these facts. Yes many of these countries have paper
currency which can be easily identified by the blind, but services for the
blind in many of them fall short of those we have here in the states. No
other country that I know of has a national research and training institute
comparable to the NFB Jernigan Institute. Nor do they have adult orientation
centers that are run by the blind for the blind. These nations have currency
easily distinguishable by the blind, but they do not have strong
organizations of the blind like the NFB. The UK has paper currency a blind
person can easily identify, but they also have a tyrannical guide dog
organization that refused to give a blind person I've personally talked to a
replacement guide dog unless she agreed not to use escalators with it when
she traveled; something American guide dog users do as a matter of course.
And speaking of Iraq I'm not sure about their paper currency, but with
respect for the standard of living and services for the blind in that
country our prayers and thoughts go out to them in this time of turmoil.
If you asked me having unidentifiable paper currency is a small price to
pay when you consider the type of agencies and organizations for the blind
in this country. If the ACB thinks it can come up with solutions to this
problem let them get busy and develop the solution and leave us alone!! This
is a far more positive approach than what we've seen on these lists all week
long. Now can we get back to discussing the graphical user interface and
take this thread to more appropriate forums, or drop it all together? I was
tired of it after just seeing a few hours of these messages when it started.
Take care everyone and have a great day.
Peter Donahue
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Antonacci" < mailto:jjantonacci at verizon.net jjantonacci at verizon.net
>
To: "'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'" < mailto:gui-talk at nfbnet.org gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 8:21 AM
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] National Federation
oftheBlindCommentsonFederalCourtRuling on U.S. Currency
Since this is what you mistakenly believe about me and my organization, I
believe you should remove me from any and all forwarding lists you maintain.
Personally, I thought you were much smarter than that.
Jim Antonacci, WA3EHD
-----Original Message-----
From: mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
[mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]On
Behalf Of Anthony Vece
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 2:05 AM
To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] National Federation
oftheBlindCommentsonFederalCourtRuling on U.S. Currency
Hi Andy;
You have just confirmed my thinking that the NFB is a dictatorship.
and, it uses a totalitarian form of government.
Kind of like what we just got rid of in Iraq.
Anthony
----- Original Message -----
From: Baracco, Andrew W
To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 1:29 PM
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] National Federation
oftheBlindCommentsonFederalCourtRuling on U.S. Currency
When i belonged to the NFB, I asked what you do if you disagree with a
position taken by the organization. I was basically told that you keep
quiet. When I asked what you should do if you disagree with most of the
positions taken by the organization, I was told that you should join
another organization, so I did.
Andy
-----Original Message-----
From: mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
[mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Seville Allen
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 12:46 PM
To: 'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] National Federation
oftheBlindCommentsonFederalCourt Ruling on U.S. Currency
What happens is the policy is changed through our resolution process
which is how our NFB policy is made.
One can look at resolutions through the years as they are posted on the
NFB website.
-----Original Message-----
From: mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
[mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Joel Deutsch
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 3:20 PM
To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] National Federation of
theBlindCommentsonFederalCourt Ruling on U.S. Currency
As an outsider to the NFB, I have to ask a basic thing: When a lot of
members disagree with enough policy positions of the NFB leadership, are
there periodic nationwide elections where two or more candidates run
for the top posts, and new leadership can be voted in? Or are the top
positions more like job appointments of indefinite duration?
Thanks. I know it's a really basic question about organizational
structure, but I've heard about national conventions and so forth, but
never about elections of any sort.
Thanks.
nd ndefniite to wish for a idifferent olicty p9o
----- Original Message -----
From: George and Pamela Dominguez
To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 11:51 AM
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] National Federation of the
BlindCommentsonFederalCourt Ruling on U.S. Currency
As long as we support the NFB, I don't think they can demand that we
agree with every single thing. After all, we are individuals who belong
to an organization of people who are blind. I don't agree with
everything all the way, but when I don't, I don't make a fuss. I just
keep it to myself if I can't get somebody to convince me why I should
change my mind. I still believe in the principles of the NFB, and I'm
glad we have it. Pam.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug Lee" < mailto:dgl at dlee.org dgl at dlee.org
>
To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" < mailto:gui-talk at nfbnet.org gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 2:29 PM
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] National Federation of the
BlindCommentsonFederalCourt Ruling on U.S. Currency
> I must giggle at this, then hesitantly and hopefully briefly reply:
>
> I think we all agree that inaccessible computers deny us jobs.
> Computers and money do have in common the trait of being hard to live
> without these days. However, whereas I'm sure a list of jobs
> impossible without computer access would fall together in a hurry on
> the slightest public prompting, I doubt a list of jobs impossible
> without tactily identifiable money would so easily form. Witness the
> existence of this very mailing list to address the need to make
> computers accessible, and as far as I know, the profound absence of
> such a list for the problems we have handling money. Money-Talk, or
> would that be Money-Talks? Hmm. <grin>
>
> My personal view, in case anyone wants it: I would like identifiable
> money, but I believe it will be extremely expensive to make that
> happen unless someone manages a way to do it that requires no
> modification to the myriad money readers out there--laundry machines,
> change machines, soda machines, etc. I believe the money modification
> should have been made when other changes were being made to reduce
> counterfitting, and I even think the NFB defended this position at the
> time. I think the strongest argument against changing money for blind
> people is not what it will make people think of blindness, but as Mike
> said, what danger we place current laws in by trying to use them to
> accomplish such a mountainous task. Were it me, I would not spend my
> money fighting this, but I would neither go to the barricades and
> assert it as necessary. Finally, I hope the outcome of this is,
> ultimately, a change in US money, even if it occurs as part of
> something else, and even if not immediately.
>
> Disclaimer, if that's what it is: I am an NFB member and have been
> since about 1984. If I disagree with an NFB policy, I know where to
> go to speak my mind.
>
> On Fri, Dec 01, 2006 at 12:21:21AM -0600, jaybee wrote:
> There's just as little need to change the currency to make it
accessible
as
> there is to change the computer to make it accessible. Regards, Jesse
> "To err is human; to forgive divine (Alexander Pope, 1688.")
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "denise avant" < mailto:dravant at ameritech.net dravant at ameritech.net
>
> To: "'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'" < mailto:gui-talk at nfbnet.org gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>
> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 8:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] National Federation of the
> BlindCommentsonFederalCourt Ruling on U.S. Currency
>
>
> Well glad you know how the court things before there is ever any oral
> argument. It's strange that we ask that printed materials be put in
> accessible format such as braille electronic files or tape. Or we ask
that
> the bus system be made more accessible so we can know when our stops
are
> coming or that elevators have braille and large print on them so we
can
know
> what floor we're getting off of. When there is an nfb convention, the
rooms
> are marked in braille. Why because we are blind and cannot see to read
> print. But when it comes to one of the most important things in the
world,
> knowing what money you have the instant its given to you, oh that's
not a
> good thing because of blindness.
> The reason why people are not cheated on a wide scale basis is because
we
> take all of these extra steps that sighted people never have to do to
avoid
> being cheated. And I've heard more than a few instances of where
people
have
> accidentally given a wrong bill and lost a lot of money. I can say I'm
not
> one of them. But I'm still glad the judge realizes that this is
important.
> Quite frankly if the u.s. supreme court could fool the criminal
defense
bar
> with the crawford decision two years ago, don't be so sure that the
judge's
> decision will be reversed on appeal.
>
> s
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
[mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On
> Behalf Of Mike Freeman
> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 8:21 PM
> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] National Federation of the Blind
> CommentsonFederalCourt Ruling on U.S. Currency
>
> If the case is appealed as it most assuredly will be, the appeal will
win.
> And what will have been gained? Nothing. And much could be lost if the
> decision rejecting the lawsuit on appeal is broader and abolishes some
of
> the protections we now have under Section 504, the underlying statue.
>
> Moreover, under most circumstances in which someone would be cheated,
> cashiers' drawers must balance at the end of the day. I deny the
implication
> that numerous blind persons have been ripped off.
>
> I wouldn't object if currency were modified for other reasons. But
blindness
> certainly is not a sufficient reason IMO to do so.
>
> Mike
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "denise avant" < mailto:dravant at ameritech.net dravant at ameritech.net
>
> To: "'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'" < mailto:gui-talk at nfbnet.org gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 8:00 PM
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] National Federation of the Blind Comments
> onFederalCourt Ruling on U.S. Currency
>
>
> Hello,
> Dr. Mauer and others are correct in saying that there are many more
> important issues like jobs and access to printed material that touch
the
> blind community. But this doesn't mean that having paper money is not
> important. I've been working for years now. Before I had a job, I
still
had
> to know how to tell what little money I did have. Once I retire the
same
> will be true. There is no question, money is very important all over
the
> world let alone the u.s. and it would be helpful to be able to know
right
> away what bill you are getting.
> So often, I've been assisted by people who are from other countries.
The
> British for example are shocked that all of our paper money is the
same
> size. And they want to know how do I know someone is not cheating me.
Even
> my friends and assistants want to know how I know what paper money I
have.
> And it would be great if I didn't have to go through various steps and
> stages to fold money in different ways so I would know this is a
twenty or
> ten etc.
> Quite frankly, I'm glad that the judge recognized that being able to
know
> what a bill is by feel if not by sight is an important thing.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
[mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On
> Behalf Of Mike Arrigo
> Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 7:50 PM
> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] National Federation of the Blind Comments on
> FederalCourt Ruling on U.S. Currency
>
> It's times like this that I'm reminded why I have nothing to do with
the
> federation. I'm certainly not saying everyone in the federation is
this
way,
> but you have to wonder where some of this logic comes from.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Will Smith" < mailto:wilsmith at iglou.com wilsmith at iglou.com
>
> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" < mailto:gui-talk at nfbnet.org gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 5:30 PM
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] National Federation of the Blind Comments on
Federal
> Court Ruling on U.S. Currency
>
>
>
> I continue to marvel at the positions NFB top brass take on things
like
> distinct money markings or shapes.
>
> I guess if you have enough power and position then money just doesnt
matter
> much.
>
> Will
> mailto:wilsmith at iglou.com wilsmith at iglou.com
> On Wed, 29 Nov 2006, Reinhard Stebner
> wrote:
>
> > I really do not understand the NFB's stand on this. I think having
> > money that I can tell at a glance what it is makes me more
independent
> > from machines, fraud and enables me to be more independent. How do
> > other blind people think about this?
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
[mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> > On Behalf Of David Andrews
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 3:53 PM
> > To: mailto:dtb-talk at nfbnet.org dtb-talk at nfbnet.org
; mailto:dandrews at visi.com dandrews at visi.com
;
mailto:diabetes-talk at nfbnet.org diabetes-talk at nfbnet.org
;
> > mailto:promotion-technology at nfbnet.org promotion-technology at nfbnet.org
; mailto:" nabs-l"@nfbnet.org " nabs-l"@nfbnet.org
; "
> nfbcs"@nfbnet.org;
> > mailto:blindtlk at nfbnet.org blindtlk at nfbnet.org
; mailto:nfb-announce at nfbnet.org nfb-announce at nfbnet.org
; mailto:" nfbmo"@nfbnet.org " nfbmo"@nfbnet.org
;
> > mailto:nfb-science at nfbnet.org nfb-science at nfbnet.org
; mailto:" journalists"@nfbnet.org " journalists"@nfbnet.org
;
> > mailto:gui-talk at nfbnet.org gui-talk at nfbnet.org
; mailto:blindkid at nfbnet.org blindkid at nfbnet.org
; mailto:napub at nfbnet.org napub at nfbnet.org
;
> > mailto:nabop at nfbnet.org nabop at nfbnet.org
; mailto:blparent at nfbnet.org blparent at nfbnet.org
; mailto:cabs-talk at nfbnet.org cabs-talk at nfbnet.org
; "
> > nfb-reno-l"@nfbnet.org; mailto:nfb-river-city at nfbnet.org nfb-river-city at nfbnet.org
; "
> > nfb-sf"@nfbnet.org; mailto:nfbc-info at nfbnet.org nfbc-info at nfbnet.org
; mailto:nfbofncp at nfbnet.org nfbofncp at nfbnet.org
;
> > mailto:trainer-talk at nfbnet.org trainer-talk at nfbnet.org
; mailto:" electronics-talk"@nfbnet.org " electronics-talk"@nfbnet.org
;
> > mailto:nfb-talk at nfbnet.org nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
; mailto:" tops-2005"@nfbnet.org " tops-2005"@nfbnet.org
; "
rocketon"@nfbnet.org;
> > mailto:nopbc-board at nfbnet.org nopbc-board at nfbnet.org
; mailto:nfb-newsline-sponsors at nfbnet.org nfb-newsline-sponsors at nfbnet.org
;
> > mailto:nfb-imagination-fund at nfbnet.org nfb-imagination-fund at nfbnet.org
; mailto:" new-horizons"@nfbnet.org " new-horizons"@nfbnet.org
; "
> > ncbys"@nfbnet.org;
> mailto:nabs-presidents at nfbnet.org nabs-presidents at nfbnet.org
;
> > mailto:gama-summit at nfbnet.org gama-summit at nfbnet.org
; mailto:nfbwatlk at nfbnet.org nfbwatlk at nfbnet.org
; mailto:nfb-idaho at nfbnet.org nfb-idaho at nfbnet.org
;
> > mailto:mt-blind at nfbnet.org mt-blind at nfbnet.org
; mailto:" cabs"@nfbnet.org " cabs"@nfbnet.org
; mailto:colorado-talk at nfbnet.org colorado-talk at nfbnet.org
; "
> > nfbaz-talk"@nfbnet.org; mailto:mabs at nfbnet.org mabs at nfbnet.org
; mailto:oabs at nfbnet.org oabs at nfbnet.org
;
> > mailto:greater-baltimore at nfbnet.org greater-baltimore at nfbnet.org
; mailto:" nfbf-l"@nfbnet.org " nfbf-l"@nfbnet.org
;
> > mailto:4alabama at nfbnet.org 4alabama at nfbnet.org
; mailto:" vabs"@nfbnet.org " vabs"@nfbnet.org
; mailto:" mn-abs"@nfbnet.org " mn-abs"@nfbnet.org
;
> > mailto:nfbmi-talk at nfbnet.org nfbmi-talk at nfbnet.org
; mailto:" mi-abs"@nfbnet.org " mi-abs"@nfbnet.org
; mailto:il-talk at nfbnet.org il-talk at nfbnet.org
;
> > mailto:iabs-talk at nfbnet.org iabs-talk at nfbnet.org
; mailto:" nebraska-students"@nfbnet.org " nebraska-students"@nfbnet.org
; "
> > tn-talk"@nfbnet.org;
> mailto:vendtalk at nfbnet.org vendtalk at nfbnet.org
;
> > mailto:" nagdu"@nfbnet.org " nagdu"@nfbnet.org
; mailto:" nyagdu"@nfbnet.org " nyagdu"@nfbnet.org
; mailto:" ag-eq"@nfbnet.org " ag-eq"@nfbnet.org
;
> > mailto:arizona-students at nfbnet.org arizona-students at nfbnet.org
; mailto:" nfb-kzoo"@nfbnet.org " nfb-kzoo"@nfbnet.org
; "
> > reader-users"@nfbnet.org; mailto:nabentre at nfbnet.org nabentre at nfbnet.org
; mailto:" nfbj"@nfbnet.org " nfbj"@nfbnet.org
; "
> > nfb-db"@nfbnet.org; mailto:nfb-fundraising at nfbnet.org nfb-fundraising at nfbnet.org
; "
> faith-talk"@nfbnet.org;
> > mailto:" lions-ed"@nfbnet.org " lions-ed"@nfbnet.org
; mailto:nfb-lions at nfbnet.org nfb-lions at nfbnet.org
; "
> ncme-mentoring"@nfbnet.org;
> > mailto:" nfbwv-talk"@nfbnet.org " nfbwv-talk"@nfbnet.org
; mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org blindlaw at nfbnet.org
;
mailto:nfb-editors at nfbnet.org nfb-editors at nfbnet.org
;
> > mailto:" humanser"@nfbnet.org " humanser"@nfbnet.org
; mailto:rehab at nfbnet.org rehab at nfbnet.org
; mailto:nfbpnotk at nfbnet.org nfbpnotk at nfbnet.org
; "
> > musictlk"@nfbnet.org; mailto:" nosb"@nfbnet.org " nosb"@nfbnet.org
; mailto:stylist at nfbnet.org stylist at nfbnet.org
; "
> > sportsandrec"@nfbnet.org; mailto:" nobe-l"@nfbnet.org " nobe-l"@nfbnet.org
;
> > mailto:travelandtourism at nfbnet.org travelandtourism at nfbnet.org
; mailto:" teachvib"@nfbnet.org " teachvib"@nfbnet.org
; "
> nfb-web"@nfbnet.org;
> > mailto:ccb-alumni at nfbnet.org ccb-alumni at nfbnet.org
; mailto:" la-students"@nfbnet.org " la-students"@nfbnet.org
; "
> > nfb-cars"@nfbnet.org; mailto:nfb-hi at nfbnet.org nfb-hi at nfbnet.org
; mailto:" nfbkabs"@nfbnet.org " nfbkabs"@nfbnet.org
; "
> > nfbkpbc"@nfbnet.org; mailto:nfbofncp at nfbnet.org nfbofncp at nfbnet.org
; mailto:" tabs"@nfbnet.org " tabs"@nfbnet.org
;
> > mailto:dtb-talk at nfbnet.org dtb-talk at nfbnet.org
> > Subject: [gui-talk] National Federation of the Blind Comments on
> > Federal Court Ruling on U.S. Currency
> >
> > National Federation of the Blind Comments
> >
> >
> > on Federal Court Ruling on U.S. Currency
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Views Effort as Dangerously Misguided
> >
> >
> >
> > Baltimore, Maryland (November 29, 2006): The National Federation of
> > the Blind, the largest organization of blind persons in America and
> > known as the voice of the nation's blind, criticized as dangerously
> > misguided a federal court ruling saying that the design of U.S.
> > currency discriminates against the blind.
> >
> >
> >
> > Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind,
> > said: "The blind need jobs and real opportunities to earn money, not
> > feel-good gimmicks that misinform the public about our capabilities.
> > Blind people transact business with paper money every day. This
> > ruling puts a roadblock in the way of solving the real problem,
which
> > is the seventy percent unemployment rate among working-age blind
> > Americans that severely limits our access to cash. The ruling will
do
> > nothing to alleviate that situation; in fact, it seriously endangers
> > the ability of the blind to get jobs and participate fully in
society.
> > It argues that the blind cannot handle currency or documents in the
> > workplace and that virtually everything must be modified for the use
> > of the blind. An employer who believes that every piece of printed
> > material in the workplace must be specially designed so that the
blind
> > can read it will have a strong incentive not to hire a blind
person."
> >
> >
> >
> > Maurer went on to enumerate the real needs for access to information
> > by the blind and made a distinction between those needs and the
issue
> > of identifying currency. "Access to information of all kinds, such
as
> > that contained on Internet Web sites and in the press, is certainly
> > critical to the ability of the blind to become productive members of
> > society. Blind students need educational materials in Braille and
> > other alternative formats so that they can prepare for employment
and
> > ultimately earn an income for themselves and their families. Given
> > the urgent need for access to the kind of information that is
required
> > for success in America's information economy, the matter of
> > identifying the denominations of paper bills is of relatively little
> > concern."
> >
> >
> >
> > Blind people traditionally identify paper currency by folding bills
of
> > different denominations in different ways. "In reality, blind
people
> > do not routinely find that we have been short-changed," Maurer
> > commented. Machines are readily available to identify paper money
for
> > blind people who run businesses or handle large amounts of cash.
> > "Essentially, the United States Treasury has been ordered by the
> > courts to come up with a solution for a nonexistent problem," Maurer
> > said.
> >
> >
> >
> > The National Federation of the Blind believes that with training and
> > opportunity, blind people can compete in the world with only minor
> > modifications. The American Council of the Blind, which brought the
> > lawsuit against the United States Treasury, promotes the view that
the
> > blind are unable to compete unless the world is modified
dramatically
> > and specifically for blind people, and that the blind must be made
> > objects of care and pity rather than equal participants in society.
> >
> >
> >
> > John G. Par? Jr.
> > Director of Public Relations
> > NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND
> > 1800 Johnson Street
> > Baltimore, Maryland 21230
> > Telephone: (410) 659-9314, ext. 2371
> > Cell phone: (410) 913-3912
> > Fax: (410) 685-5653
> > Email: mailto:jpare at nfb.org jpare at nfb.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > gui-talk mailing list
> > mailto:gui-talk at nfbnet.org gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > gui-talk mailing list
> > mailto:gui-talk at nfbnet.org gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk
> >
>
>
>
>
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> ----
>
>
> > _______________________________________________
> > gui-talk mailing list
> > mailto:gui-talk at nfbnet.org gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> gui-talk mailing list
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> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk
>
> _______________________________________________
> gui-talk mailing list
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> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk
>
> _______________________________________________
> gui-talk mailing list
> mailto:gui-talk at nfbnet.org gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> gui-talk mailing list
> mailto:gui-talk at nfbnet.org gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk
>
> --
> Doug Lee mailto:dgl at dlee.org dgl at dlee.org
> SSB + BART Group mailto:doug.lee at ssbbartgroup.com doug.lee at ssbbartgroup.com
http://www.ssbbartgroup.com http://www.ssbbartgroup.com
> "Never does the human soul appear so strong as when it foregoes
> revenge, and dares forgive an injury." --E. H. Chapin
> _______________________________________________
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> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk
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