[gui-talk] National Federation oftheBlindCommentsonFederalCourt Ruling on U.S. Currency

Mon Dec 4 12:29:48 CST 2006

When i belonged to the NFB, I asked what you do if you disagree with a
position taken by the organization.  I was basically told that you keep
quiet.  When I asked what you should do if you disagree with most of the
positions taken by the organization, I was told that you should join
another organization, so I did.

Andy

-----Original Message-----
From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Seville Allen
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 12:46 PM
To: 'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] National Federation
oftheBlindCommentsonFederalCourt Ruling on U.S. Currency

What happens is the policy is changed through our resolution process
which is how our NFB policy is made.  
One can look at resolutions through the years as they are posted on the
NFB website. 

-----Original Message-----
From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Joel Deutsch
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 3:20 PM
To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] National Federation of
theBlindCommentsonFederalCourt Ruling on U.S. Currency

As an outsider to the NFB, I have to ask a basic thing:  When a lot of
members disagree with enough policy positions of the NFB leadership, are
there periodic nationwide elections where  two or more candidates run
for the top posts, and new leadership can be voted in?  Or are the top
positions more like job appointments of indefinite duration?

Thanks.  I know it's a really basic question about organizational
structure, but I've heard about national conventions and so forth, but
never about elections of any sort.

Thanks.
nd ndefniite to wish for a idifferent olicty p9o
----- Original Message -----
From: George and Pamela Dominguez
To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 11:51 AM
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] National Federation of the
BlindCommentsonFederalCourt Ruling on U.S. Currency

As long as we support the NFB, I don't think they can demand that we
agree with every single thing.  After all, we are individuals who belong
to an organization of people who are blind.  I don't agree with
everything all the way, but when I don't, I don't make a fuss.  I just
keep it to myself if I can't get somebody to convince me why I should
change my mind.  I still believe in the principles of the NFB, and I'm
glad we have it.  Pam.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug Lee" <dgl at dlee.org>
To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 2:29 PM
Subject: Re: [gui-talk] National Federation of the
BlindCommentsonFederalCourt Ruling on U.S. Currency

> I must giggle at this, then hesitantly and hopefully briefly reply:
>
> I think we all agree that inaccessible computers deny us jobs.
> Computers and money do have in common the trait of being hard to live
> without these days.  However, whereas I'm sure a list of jobs
> impossible without computer access would fall together in a hurry on
> the slightest public prompting, I doubt a list of jobs impossible
> without tactily identifiable money would so easily form.  Witness the
> existence of this very mailing list to address the need to make
> computers accessible, and as far as I know, the profound absence of
> such a list for the problems we have handling money.  Money-Talk, or
> would that be Money-Talks?  Hmm. <grin>
>
> My personal view, in case anyone wants it:  I would like identifiable
> money, but I believe it will be extremely expensive to make that
> happen unless someone manages a way to do it that requires no
> modification to the myriad money readers out there--laundry machines,
> change machines, soda machines, etc.  I believe the money modification
> should have been made when other changes were being made to reduce
> counterfitting, and I even think the NFB defended this position at the
> time.  I think the strongest argument against changing money for blind
> people is not what it will make people think of blindness, but as Mike
> said, what danger we place current laws in by trying to use them to
> accomplish such a mountainous task.  Were it me, I would not spend my
> money fighting this, but I would neither go to the barricades and
> assert it as necessary.  Finally, I hope the outcome of this is,
> ultimately, a change in US money, even if it occurs as part of
> something else, and even if not immediately.
>
> Disclaimer, if that's what it is:  I am an NFB member and have been
> since about 1984.  If I disagree with an NFB policy, I know where to
> go to speak my mind.
>
> On Fri, Dec 01, 2006 at 12:21:21AM -0600, jaybee wrote:
> There's just as little need to change the currency to make it
accessible
as
> there is to change the computer to make it accessible.  Regards, Jesse
> "To err is human; to forgive divine  (Alexander Pope, 1688.")
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "denise avant" <dravant at ameritech.net>
> To: "'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 8:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] National Federation of the
> BlindCommentsonFederalCourt Ruling on U.S. Currency
>
>
> Well glad you know how the court things before there is ever any oral
> argument. It's strange that we ask that printed materials be put in
> accessible format such as braille electronic files or tape. Or we ask
that
> the bus system be made more accessible so we can know when our stops
are
> coming or that elevators have braille and large print on them so we
can
know
> what floor we're getting off of. When there is an nfb convention, the
rooms
> are marked in braille. Why because we are blind and cannot see to read
> print. But when it comes to one of the most important things in the
world,
> knowing what money you have the instant its given to you, oh that's
not a
> good thing because of blindness.
> The reason why people are not cheated on a wide scale basis is because
we
> take all of these extra steps that sighted people never have to do to
avoid
> being cheated. And I've heard more than a few instances of where
people
have
> accidentally given a wrong bill and lost a lot of money. I can say I'm
not
> one of them. But I'm still glad the judge realizes that this is
important.
> Quite frankly if the u.s. supreme court could fool the criminal
defense
bar
> with the crawford decision two years ago, don't be so sure that the
judge's
> decision will be reversed on appeal.
>
> s
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On
> Behalf Of Mike Freeman
> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 8:21 PM
> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] National Federation of the Blind
> CommentsonFederalCourt Ruling on U.S. Currency
>
> If the case is appealed as it most assuredly will be, the appeal will
win.
> And what will have been gained? Nothing. And much could be lost if the
> decision rejecting the lawsuit on appeal is broader and abolishes some
of
> the protections we now have under Section 504, the underlying statue.
>
> Moreover, under most circumstances in which someone would be cheated,
> cashiers' drawers must balance at the end of the day. I deny the
implication
> that numerous blind persons have been ripped off.
>
> I wouldn't object if currency were modified for other reasons. But
blindness
> certainly is not a sufficient reason IMO to do so.
>
> Mike
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "denise avant" <dravant at ameritech.net>
> To: "'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 8:00 PM
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] National Federation of the Blind Comments
> onFederalCourt Ruling on U.S. Currency
>
>
> Hello,
> Dr. Mauer and others are correct in saying that there are many more
> important issues like jobs and access to printed material that touch
the
> blind community. But this doesn't mean that having paper money is not
> important. I've been working for years now. Before I had a job, I
still
had
> to know how to tell what little money I did have. Once I retire the
same
> will be true. There is no question, money is very important all over
the
> world let alone the u.s. and it would be helpful to be able to know
right
> away what bill you are getting.
> So often, I've been assisted by people who are from other countries.
The
> British for example are shocked that all of our paper money is the
same
> size. And they want to know how do I know someone is not cheating me.
Even
> my friends and assistants want to know how I know what paper money I
have.
> And it would be great if I didn't have to go through various steps and
> stages to fold money in different ways so I would know this is a
twenty or
> ten etc.
> Quite frankly, I'm glad that the judge recognized that being able to
know
> what a bill is by feel if not by sight is an important thing.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On
> Behalf Of Mike Arrigo
> Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 7:50 PM
> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] National Federation of the Blind Comments on
> FederalCourt Ruling on U.S. Currency
>
> It's times like this that I'm reminded why I have nothing to do with
the
> federation. I'm certainly not saying everyone in the federation is
this
way,
> but you have to wonder where some of this logic comes from.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Will Smith" <wilsmith at iglou.com>
> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 5:30 PM
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] National Federation of the Blind Comments on
Federal
> Court Ruling on U.S. Currency
>
>
>
> I continue to marvel at the positions NFB top brass take on things
like
> distinct money markings or shapes.
>
> I guess if you have enough power and position then money just doesnt
matter
> much.
>
> Will
> wilsmith at iglou.com
> On Wed, 29 Nov 2006, Reinhard Stebner
> wrote:
>
> > I really do not understand the NFB's stand on this.  I think having
> > money that I can tell at a glance what it is makes me more
independent
> > from machines, fraud and enables me to be more independent.  How do
> > other blind people think about this?
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
[mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> > On Behalf Of David Andrews
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 3:53 PM
> > To: dtb-talk at nfbnet.org; dandrews at visi.com;
diabetes-talk at nfbnet.org;
> > promotion-technology at nfbnet.org; " nabs-l"@nfbnet.org; "
> nfbcs"@nfbnet.org;
> > blindtlk at nfbnet.org; nfb-announce at nfbnet.org; " nfbmo"@nfbnet.org;
> > nfb-science at nfbnet.org; " journalists"@nfbnet.org;
> > gui-talk at nfbnet.org; blindkid at nfbnet.org; napub at nfbnet.org;
> > nabop at nfbnet.org; blparent at nfbnet.org; cabs-talk at nfbnet.org; "
> > nfb-reno-l"@nfbnet.org; nfb-river-city at nfbnet.org; "
> > nfb-sf"@nfbnet.org; nfbc-info at nfbnet.org; nfbofncp at nfbnet.org;
> > trainer-talk at nfbnet.org; " electronics-talk"@nfbnet.org;
> > nfb-talk at nfbnet.org; " tops-2005"@nfbnet.org; "
rocketon"@nfbnet.org;
> > nopbc-board at nfbnet.org; nfb-newsline-sponsors at nfbnet.org;
> > nfb-imagination-fund at nfbnet.org; " new-horizons"@nfbnet.org; "
> > ncbys"@nfbnet.org;
> nabs-presidents at nfbnet.org;
> > gama-summit at nfbnet.org; nfbwatlk at nfbnet.org; nfb-idaho at nfbnet.org;
> > mt-blind at nfbnet.org; " cabs"@nfbnet.org; colorado-talk at nfbnet.org; "
> > nfbaz-talk"@nfbnet.org; mabs at nfbnet.org; oabs at nfbnet.org;
> > greater-baltimore at nfbnet.org; " nfbf-l"@nfbnet.org;
> > 4alabama at nfbnet.org; " vabs"@nfbnet.org; " mn-abs"@nfbnet.org;
> > nfbmi-talk at nfbnet.org; " mi-abs"@nfbnet.org; il-talk at nfbnet.org;
> > iabs-talk at nfbnet.org; " nebraska-students"@nfbnet.org; "
> > tn-talk"@nfbnet.org;
> vendtalk at nfbnet.org;
> > " nagdu"@nfbnet.org; " nyagdu"@nfbnet.org; " ag-eq"@nfbnet.org;
> > arizona-students at nfbnet.org; " nfb-kzoo"@nfbnet.org; "
> > reader-users"@nfbnet.org; nabentre at nfbnet.org; " nfbj"@nfbnet.org; "
> > nfb-db"@nfbnet.org; nfb-fundraising at nfbnet.org; "
> faith-talk"@nfbnet.org;
> > " lions-ed"@nfbnet.org; nfb-lions at nfbnet.org; "
> ncme-mentoring"@nfbnet.org;
> > " nfbwv-talk"@nfbnet.org; blindlaw at nfbnet.org;
nfb-editors at nfbnet.org;
> > " humanser"@nfbnet.org; rehab at nfbnet.org; nfbpnotk at nfbnet.org; "
> > musictlk"@nfbnet.org; " nosb"@nfbnet.org; stylist at nfbnet.org; "
> > sportsandrec"@nfbnet.org; " nobe-l"@nfbnet.org;
> > travelandtourism at nfbnet.org; " teachvib"@nfbnet.org; "
> nfb-web"@nfbnet.org;
> > ccb-alumni at nfbnet.org; " la-students"@nfbnet.org; "
> > nfb-cars"@nfbnet.org; nfb-hi at nfbnet.org; " nfbkabs"@nfbnet.org; "
> > nfbkpbc"@nfbnet.org; nfbofncp at nfbnet.org; " tabs"@nfbnet.org;
> > dtb-talk at nfbnet.org
> > Subject: [gui-talk] National Federation of the Blind Comments on
> > Federal Court Ruling on U.S. Currency
> >
> >         National Federation of the Blind Comments
> >
> >
> > on Federal Court Ruling on U.S. Currency
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Views Effort as Dangerously Misguided
> >
> >
> >
> > Baltimore, Maryland (November 29, 2006): The National Federation of
> > the Blind, the largest organization of blind persons in America and
> > known as the voice of the nation's blind, criticized as dangerously
> > misguided a federal court ruling saying that the design of U.S.
> > currency discriminates against the blind.
> >
> >
> >
> > Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind,
> > said: "The blind need jobs and real opportunities to earn money, not
> > feel-good gimmicks that misinform the public about our capabilities.
> > Blind people transact business with paper money every day.  This
> > ruling puts a roadblock in the way of solving the real problem,
which
> > is the seventy percent unemployment rate among working-age blind
> > Americans that severely limits our access to cash.  The ruling will
do
> > nothing to alleviate that situation; in fact, it seriously endangers
> > the ability of the blind to get jobs and participate fully in
society.
> > It argues that the blind cannot handle currency or documents in the
> > workplace and that virtually everything must be modified for the use
> > of the blind.  An employer who believes that every piece of printed
> > material in the workplace must be specially designed so that the
blind
> > can read it will have a strong incentive not to hire a blind
person."
> >
> >
> >
> > Maurer went on to enumerate the real needs for access to information
> > by the blind and made a distinction between those needs and the
issue
> > of identifying currency.  "Access to information of all kinds, such
as
> > that contained on Internet Web sites and in the press, is certainly
> > critical to the ability of the blind to become productive members of
> > society.  Blind students need educational materials in Braille and
> > other alternative formats so that they can prepare for employment
and
> > ultimately earn an income for themselves and their families.  Given
> > the urgent need for access to the kind of information that is
required
> > for success in America's information economy, the matter of
> > identifying the denominations of paper bills is of relatively little
> > concern."
> >
> >
> >
> > Blind people traditionally identify paper currency by folding bills
of
> > different denominations in different ways.  "In reality, blind
people
> > do not routinely find that we have been short-changed," Maurer
> > commented.  Machines are readily available to identify paper money
for
> > blind people who run businesses or handle large amounts of cash.
> > "Essentially, the United States Treasury has been ordered by the
> > courts to come up with a solution for a nonexistent problem," Maurer
> > said.
> >
> >
> >
> > The National Federation of the Blind believes that with training and
> > opportunity, blind people can compete in the world with only minor
> > modifications.  The American Council of the Blind, which brought the
> > lawsuit against the United States Treasury, promotes the view that
the
> > blind are unable to compete unless the world is modified
dramatically
> > and specifically for blind people, and that the blind must be made
> > objects of care and pity rather than equal participants in society.
> >
> >
> >
> > John G. Par? Jr.
> > Director of Public Relations
> > NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND
> > 1800 Johnson Street
> > Baltimore, Maryland  21230
> > Telephone:  (410) 659-9314, ext. 2371
> > Cell phone:  (410) 913-3912
> > Fax:  (410) 685-5653
> > Email:  jpare at nfb.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > gui-talk mailing list
> > gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > gui-talk mailing list
> > gui-talk at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk
> >
>
>
>
>
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> -- 
> Doug Lee                 dgl at dlee.org
> SSB + BART Group         doug.lee at ssbbartgroup.com
http://www.ssbbartgroup.com
> "Never does the human soul appear so strong as when it foregoes
> revenge, and dares forgive an injury." --E. H. Chapin
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