[gui-talk] NationalFederationoftheBlindCommentsonFederalCourtRuling on U.S. Currency
Arliedog
ddlmh50 at insightbb.com
Fri Dec 1 20:52:42 CST 2006
In the three conventions I attended the debate was a joke. what the leaders
wanted the leaders got. They hand picked the resolution commitee to insure
that. leaders
----- Original Message -----
From: "Seville Allen" <ceoallen at erols.com>
To: "'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 8:47 PM
Subject: Re:
[gui-talk]NationalFederationoftheBlindCommentsonFederalCourtRuling on U.S.
Currency
> Resolutions are debated and voted on at convention before they are
> published.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of George and Pamela Dominguez
> Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 9:38 PM
> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk]
> NationalFederationoftheBlindCommentsonFederalCourtRuling on U.S. Currency
>
> After the resolutions are drafted, they are brought to the convention and
> we
> vote on them. Pam.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joel Deutsch" <jdeutsch at dslextreme.com>
> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 7:41 PM
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk]
> NationalFederationoftheBlindCommentsonFederalCourtRuling on U.S. Currency
>
>
>> Seville,
>>
>> Thanks. First,I said nothing at all about ACB or any other organization.
> What made you imagine I had? And policy is made by "resolution," and any
> member who wants to know what it is can read about it as a fait accomplis,
> about which they can do nothing? Does this mean the rulings are published
> in order to give membership the chance to review and vote on it, or appeal
> it? That doesn't sound like what you mean. You just said the ruling
> board
> makes decisions and then publishes them. That's what they do in an
> authoritarian country, make laws and then announce what they are.
>>
>> Again, I didn't say a thin about the ACB. I only asked if the NFB had a
> participatory process. So far, what you say leads me to conclude that it
> must not.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Seville Allen
>> To: 'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'
>> Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 3:51 PM
>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] National
> FederationoftheBlindCommentsonFederalCourtRuling on U.S. Currency
>>
>>
>> NFB policy is made by resolution at national convention. Our elected
>> officials are part of that resolution process. With regard to the rest
>> of
>> your questions, no, NFB structure is different from that of ACB as
> described
>> in your questions.
>> Your original question, as I interpreted it, leaving out a discussion of
> the
>> structure of the two organizations, regarded how NFB makes policy, and
>> policy is made at national convention through the resolution process
>> which
>> is published and known to all members who want to know it.
>> I'm not getting into a debate about organizational structure, I believe
>> that piece of your questioning is baiting and I'm not getting into that.
> I
>> believe your original question regarding policy is what I'll stuck with
>> here.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Joel Deutsch
>> Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 4:05 PM
>> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] National Federation
>> oftheBlindCommentsonFederalCourtRuling on U.S. Currency
>>
>> Seville,
>>
>> That's not quite responsive to the intent of my question. So let me ask
> two
>> questions.
>>
>> 1. What individual or committee is it that makes and announces such
> policy
>> decisions?
>> 2. Is the membership consulted by vote or plebescite prior to the
>> setting
>> of each such decision?
>> 3. Whether there's membership input or not, are the people described by
>> question 1 elected officers of the organization wwith limited terms of
>> office between election cycles? Or are they hired or appointed by
> someone,
>> for indefinite terms?
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Seville Allen
>> To: 'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'
>> Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 12:46 PM
>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] National Federation
> oftheBlindCommentsonFederalCourt
>> Ruling on U.S. Currency
>>
>>
>> What happens is the policy is changed through our resolution process
>> which
>> is how our NFB policy is made.
>> One can look at resolutions through the years as they are posted on the
> NFB
>> website.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Joel Deutsch
>> Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 3:20 PM
>> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] National Federation of
>> theBlindCommentsonFederalCourt Ruling on U.S. Currency
>>
>> As an outsider to the NFB, I have to ask a basic thing: When a lot of
>> members disagree with enough policy positions of the NFB leadership, are
>> there periodic nationwide elections where two or more candidates run for
>> the top posts, and new leadership can be voted in? Or are the top
> positions
>> more like job appointments of indefinite duration?
>>
>> Thanks. I know it's a really basic question about organizational
> structure,
>> but I've heard about national conventions and so forth, but never about
>> elections of any sort.
>>
>> Thanks.
>> nd ndefniite to wish for a idifferent olicty p9o
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: George and Pamela Dominguez
>> To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>> Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 11:51 AM
>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] National Federation of the
>> BlindCommentsonFederalCourt Ruling on U.S. Currency
>>
>>
>> As long as we support the NFB, I don't think they can demand that we
>> agree
>> with every single thing. After all, we are individuals who belong to an
>> organization of people who are blind. I don't agree with everything all
> the
>> way, but when I don't, I don't make a fuss. I just keep it to myself if
>> I
>> can't get somebody to convince me why I should change my mind. I still
>> believe in the principles of the NFB, and I'm glad we have it. Pam.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Doug Lee" <dgl at dlee.org>
>> To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 2:29 PM
>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] National Federation of the
>> BlindCommentsonFederalCourt Ruling on U.S. Currency
>>
>>
>> > I must giggle at this, then hesitantly and hopefully briefly reply:
>> >
>> > I think we all agree that inaccessible computers deny us jobs.
>> > Computers and money do have in common the trait of being hard to live
>> > without these days. However, whereas I'm sure a list of jobs
>> > impossible without computer access would fall together in a hurry on
>> > the slightest public prompting, I doubt a list of jobs impossible
>> > without tactily identifiable money would so easily form. Witness the
>> > existence of this very mailing list to address the need to make
>> > computers accessible, and as far as I know, the profound absence of
>> > such a list for the problems we have handling money. Money-Talk, or
>> > would that be Money-Talks? Hmm. <grin>
>> >
>> > My personal view, in case anyone wants it: I would like identifiable
>> > money, but I believe it will be extremely expensive to make that
>> > happen unless someone manages a way to do it that requires no
>> > modification to the myriad money readers out there--laundry machines,
>> > change machines, soda machines, etc. I believe the money modification
>> > should have been made when other changes were being made to reduce
>> > counterfitting, and I even think the NFB defended this position at the
>> > time. I think the strongest argument against changing money for blind
>> > people is not what it will make people think of blindness, but as Mike
>> > said, what danger we place current laws in by trying to use them to
>> > accomplish such a mountainous task. Were it me, I would not spend my
>> > money fighting this, but I would neither go to the barricades and
>> > assert it as necessary. Finally, I hope the outcome of this is,
>> > ultimately, a change in US money, even if it occurs as part of
>> > something else, and even if not immediately.
>> >
>> > Disclaimer, if that's what it is: I am an NFB member and have been
>> > since about 1984. If I disagree with an NFB policy, I know where to
>> > go to speak my mind.
>> >
>> > On Fri, Dec 01, 2006 at 12:21:21AM -0600, jaybee wrote:
>> > There's just as little need to change the currency to make it
>> > accessible
>> as
>> > there is to change the computer to make it accessible. Regards, Jesse
>> > "To err is human; to forgive divine (Alexander Pope, 1688.")
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "denise avant" <dravant at ameritech.net>
>> > To: "'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> > Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 8:47 PM
>> > Subject: Re: [gui-talk] National Federation of the
>> > BlindCommentsonFederalCourt Ruling on U.S. Currency
>> >
>> >
>> > Well glad you know how the court things before there is ever any oral
>> > argument. It's strange that we ask that printed materials be put in
>> > accessible format such as braille electronic files or tape. Or we ask
> that
>> > the bus system be made more accessible so we can know when our stops
>> > are
>> > coming or that elevators have braille and large print on them so we can
>> know
>> > what floor we're getting off of. When there is an nfb convention, the
>> rooms
>> > are marked in braille. Why because we are blind and cannot see to read
>> > print. But when it comes to one of the most important things in the
> world,
>> > knowing what money you have the instant its given to you, oh that's not
> a
>> > good thing because of blindness.
>> > The reason why people are not cheated on a wide scale basis is because
> we
>> > take all of these extra steps that sighted people never have to do to
>> avoid
>> > being cheated. And I've heard more than a few instances of where people
>> have
>> > accidentally given a wrong bill and lost a lot of money. I can say I'm
> not
>> > one of them. But I'm still glad the judge realizes that this is
> important.
>> > Quite frankly if the u.s. supreme court could fool the criminal defense
>> bar
>> > with the crawford decision two years ago, don't be so sure that the
>> judge's
>> > decision will be reversed on appeal.
>> >
>> > s
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On
>> > Behalf Of Mike Freeman
>> > Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 8:21 PM
>> > To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>> > Subject: Re: [gui-talk] National Federation of the Blind
>> > CommentsonFederalCourt Ruling on U.S. Currency
>> >
>> > If the case is appealed as it most assuredly will be, the appeal will
> win.
>> > And what will have been gained? Nothing. And much could be lost if the
>> > decision rejecting the lawsuit on appeal is broader and abolishes some
> of
>> > the protections we now have under Section 504, the underlying statue.
>> >
>> > Moreover, under most circumstances in which someone would be cheated,
>> > cashiers' drawers must balance at the end of the day. I deny the
>> implication
>> > that numerous blind persons have been ripped off.
>> >
>> > I wouldn't object if currency were modified for other reasons. But
>> blindness
>> > certainly is not a sufficient reason IMO to do so.
>> >
>> > Mike
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "denise avant" <dravant at ameritech.net>
>> > To: "'NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List'" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> > Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 8:00 PM
>> > Subject: Re: [gui-talk] National Federation of the Blind Comments
>> > onFederalCourt Ruling on U.S. Currency
>> >
>> >
>> > Hello,
>> > Dr. Mauer and others are correct in saying that there are many more
>> > important issues like jobs and access to printed material that touch
>> > the
>> > blind community. But this doesn't mean that having paper money is not
>> > important. I've been working for years now. Before I had a job, I still
>> had
>> > to know how to tell what little money I did have. Once I retire the
>> > same
>> > will be true. There is no question, money is very important all over
>> > the
>> > world let alone the u.s. and it would be helpful to be able to know
> right
>> > away what bill you are getting.
>> > So often, I've been assisted by people who are from other countries.
>> > The
>> > British for example are shocked that all of our paper money is the same
>> > size. And they want to know how do I know someone is not cheating me.
> Even
>> > my friends and assistants want to know how I know what paper money I
> have.
>> > And it would be great if I didn't have to go through various steps and
>> > stages to fold money in different ways so I would know this is a twenty
> or
>> > ten etc.
>> > Quite frankly, I'm glad that the judge recognized that being able to
> know
>> > what a bill is by feel if not by sight is an important thing.
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On
>> > Behalf Of Mike Arrigo
>> > Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 7:50 PM
>> > To: NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List
>> > Subject: Re: [gui-talk] National Federation of the Blind Comments on
>> > FederalCourt Ruling on U.S. Currency
>> >
>> > It's times like this that I'm reminded why I have nothing to do with
>> > the
>> > federation. I'm certainly not saying everyone in the federation is this
>> way,
>> > but you have to wonder where some of this logic comes from.
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Will Smith" <wilsmith at iglou.com>
>> > To: "NFBnet GUI Talk Mailing List" <gui-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> > Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 5:30 PM
>> > Subject: Re: [gui-talk] National Federation of the Blind Comments on
>> Federal
>> > Court Ruling on U.S. Currency
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I continue to marvel at the positions NFB top brass take on things like
>> > distinct money markings or shapes.
>> >
>> > I guess if you have enough power and position then money just doesnt
>> matter
>> > much.
>> >
>> > Will
>> > wilsmith at iglou.com
>> > On Wed, 29 Nov 2006, Reinhard Stebner
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > > I really do not understand the NFB's stand on this. I think having
>> > > money that I can tell at a glance what it is makes me more
>> > > independent
>> > > from machines, fraud and enables me to be more independent. How do
>> > > other blind people think about this?
>> > >
>> > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> > > [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> > > On Behalf Of David Andrews
>> > > Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 3:53 PM
>> > > To: dtb-talk at nfbnet.org; dandrews at visi.com; diabetes-talk at nfbnet.org;
>> > > promotion-technology at nfbnet.org; " nabs-l"@nfbnet.org; "
>> > nfbcs"@nfbnet.org;
>> > > blindtlk at nfbnet.org; nfb-announce at nfbnet.org; " nfbmo"@nfbnet.org;
>> > > nfb-science at nfbnet.org; " journalists"@nfbnet.org;
>> > > gui-talk at nfbnet.org; blindkid at nfbnet.org; napub at nfbnet.org;
>> > > nabop at nfbnet.org; blparent at nfbnet.org; cabs-talk at nfbnet.org; "
>> > > nfb-reno-l"@nfbnet.org; nfb-river-city at nfbnet.org; "
>> > > nfb-sf"@nfbnet.org; nfbc-info at nfbnet.org; nfbofncp at nfbnet.org;
>> > > trainer-talk at nfbnet.org; " electronics-talk"@nfbnet.org;
>> > > nfb-talk at nfbnet.org; " tops-2005"@nfbnet.org; " rocketon"@nfbnet.org;
>> > > nopbc-board at nfbnet.org; nfb-newsline-sponsors at nfbnet.org;
>> > > nfb-imagination-fund at nfbnet.org; " new-horizons"@nfbnet.org; "
>> > > ncbys"@nfbnet.org;
>> > nabs-presidents at nfbnet.org;
>> > > gama-summit at nfbnet.org; nfbwatlk at nfbnet.org; nfb-idaho at nfbnet.org;
>> > > mt-blind at nfbnet.org; " cabs"@nfbnet.org; colorado-talk at nfbnet.org; "
>> > > nfbaz-talk"@nfbnet.org; mabs at nfbnet.org; oabs at nfbnet.org;
>> > > greater-baltimore at nfbnet.org; " nfbf-l"@nfbnet.org;
>> > > 4alabama at nfbnet.org; " vabs"@nfbnet.org; " mn-abs"@nfbnet.org;
>> > > nfbmi-talk at nfbnet.org; " mi-abs"@nfbnet.org; il-talk at nfbnet.org;
>> > > iabs-talk at nfbnet.org; " nebraska-students"@nfbnet.org; "
>> > > tn-talk"@nfbnet.org;
>> > vendtalk at nfbnet.org;
>> > > " nagdu"@nfbnet.org; " nyagdu"@nfbnet.org; " ag-eq"@nfbnet.org;
>> > > arizona-students at nfbnet.org; " nfb-kzoo"@nfbnet.org; "
>> > > reader-users"@nfbnet.org; nabentre at nfbnet.org; " nfbj"@nfbnet.org; "
>> > > nfb-db"@nfbnet.org; nfb-fundraising at nfbnet.org; "
>> > faith-talk"@nfbnet.org;
>> > > " lions-ed"@nfbnet.org; nfb-lions at nfbnet.org; "
>> > ncme-mentoring"@nfbnet.org;
>> > > " nfbwv-talk"@nfbnet.org; blindlaw at nfbnet.org;
>> > > nfb-editors at nfbnet.org;
>> > > " humanser"@nfbnet.org; rehab at nfbnet.org; nfbpnotk at nfbnet.org; "
>> > > musictlk"@nfbnet.org; " nosb"@nfbnet.org; stylist at nfbnet.org; "
>> > > sportsandrec"@nfbnet.org; " nobe-l"@nfbnet.org;
>> > > travelandtourism at nfbnet.org; " teachvib"@nfbnet.org; "
>> > nfb-web"@nfbnet.org;
>> > > ccb-alumni at nfbnet.org; " la-students"@nfbnet.org; "
>> > > nfb-cars"@nfbnet.org; nfb-hi at nfbnet.org; " nfbkabs"@nfbnet.org; "
>> > > nfbkpbc"@nfbnet.org; nfbofncp at nfbnet.org; " tabs"@nfbnet.org;
>> > > dtb-talk at nfbnet.org
>> > > Subject: [gui-talk] National Federation of the Blind Comments on
>> > > Federal Court Ruling on U.S. Currency
>> > >
>> > > National Federation of the Blind Comments
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > on Federal Court Ruling on U.S. Currency
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Views Effort as Dangerously Misguided
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Baltimore, Maryland (November 29, 2006): The National Federation of
>> > > the Blind, the largest organization of blind persons in America and
>> > > known as the voice of the nation's blind, criticized as dangerously
>> > > misguided a federal court ruling saying that the design of U.S.
>> > > currency discriminates against the blind.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind,
>> > > said: "The blind need jobs and real opportunities to earn money, not
>> > > feel-good gimmicks that misinform the public about our capabilities.
>> > > Blind people transact business with paper money every day. This
>> > > ruling puts a roadblock in the way of solving the real problem, which
>> > > is the seventy percent unemployment rate among working-age blind
>> > > Americans that severely limits our access to cash. The ruling will
>> > > do
>> > > nothing to alleviate that situation; in fact, it seriously endangers
>> > > the ability of the blind to get jobs and participate fully in
>> > > society.
>> > > It argues that the blind cannot handle currency or documents in the
>> > > workplace and that virtually everything must be modified for the use
>> > > of the blind. An employer who believes that every piece of printed
>> > > material in the workplace must be specially designed so that the
>> > > blind
>> > > can read it will have a strong incentive not to hire a blind person."
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Maurer went on to enumerate the real needs for access to information
>> > > by the blind and made a distinction between those needs and the issue
>> > > of identifying currency. "Access to information of all kinds, such
>> > > as
>> > > that contained on Internet Web sites and in the press, is certainly
>> > > critical to the ability of the blind to become productive members of
>> > > society. Blind students need educational materials in Braille and
>> > > other alternative formats so that they can prepare for employment and
>> > > ultimately earn an income for themselves and their families. Given
>> > > the urgent need for access to the kind of information that is
>> > > required
>> > > for success in America's information economy, the matter of
>> > > identifying the denominations of paper bills is of relatively little
>> > > concern."
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Blind people traditionally identify paper currency by folding bills
>> > > of
>> > > different denominations in different ways. "In reality, blind people
>> > > do not routinely find that we have been short-changed," Maurer
>> > > commented. Machines are readily available to identify paper money
>> > > for
>> > > blind people who run businesses or handle large amounts of cash.
>> > > "Essentially, the United States Treasury has been ordered by the
>> > > courts to come up with a solution for a nonexistent problem," Maurer
>> > > said.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > The National Federation of the Blind believes that with training and
>> > > opportunity, blind people can compete in the world with only minor
>> > > modifications. The American Council of the Blind, which brought the
>> > > lawsuit against the United States Treasury, promotes the view that
>> > > the
>> > > blind are unable to compete unless the world is modified dramatically
>> > > and specifically for blind people, and that the blind must be made
>> > > objects of care and pity rather than equal participants in society.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > John G. Par? Jr.
>> > > Director of Public Relations
>> > > NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND
>> > > 1800 Johnson Street
>> > > Baltimore, Maryland 21230
>> > > Telephone: (410) 659-9314, ext. 2371
>> > > Cell phone: (410) 913-3912
>> > > Fax: (410) 685-5653
>> > > Email: jpare at nfb.org
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > gui-talk mailing list
>> > > gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > gui-talk mailing list
>> > > gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> --
>> > ----
>> >
>> >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > gui-talk mailing list
>> > > gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk
>> > >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > gui-talk mailing list
>> > gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
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>> > gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
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>> > gui-talk at nfbnet.org
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>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
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>> > gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > gui-talk mailing list
>> > gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk
>> >
>> > --
>> > Doug Lee dgl at dlee.org
>> > SSB + BART Group doug.lee at ssbbartgroup.com
>> http://www.ssbbartgroup.com
>> > "Never does the human soul appear so strong as when it foregoes
>> > revenge, and dares forgive an injury." --E. H. Chapin
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > gui-talk mailing list
>> > gui-talk at nfbnet.org
>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>>
>>
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