From mentink at frontiernet.net  Sat Nov  1 03:30:44 2008
From: mentink at frontiernet.net (Linda Mentink)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 22:30:44 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Left Behind Series Dramatized Radio Version
Message-ID: <20081101033045.45E27AC93D@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>

I got this from another list, and thought some of you might want to 
know about this.

Left Behind Dramatized for radio, 192KBps crisp clear audio in 48 CDs 
at SendSpace

 > If you like the Left Behind books I think you will like this so 
download and enjoy
 > From: Edward <<mailto:Solid.Rock%40comcast.net>Solid.Rock at comcast.net
 >
 >
 > I want to thank Scott Lawlor for initially posting this for me.
 > The Left Behind series first appeared in book form. The drama
 > revealed in these books eventually resulted in a dramatized version
 > designed for radio. It is the radio dramatized version that is
 > featured here.
 >
 > The Left Behind dramatized audio series tells the story of the end
 > times, in which many have been "raptured," leaving the world
 > shattered and chaotic. As people scramble for answers, a Romanian
 > politician named Nicolae Carpathia rises to become secretary-general
 > of the United Nations, promising to restore peace and stability to
 > all nations. What most of the world does not realize is that
 > Carpathia is actually the Antichrist foretold from the Bible. This
 > gripping christian novel depicts the rise of the anti-christ to
 > secure world power only to be challenged by the real Christ in the
 > final book The Glorious Appearing.
 >
 > Coming to grips with the truth and becoming born-again Christians,
 > Rayford Steele, his daughter Chloe, their pastor Bruce Barnes, and
 > young journalist Cameron "Buck" Williams begin their quest as the
 > Tribulation Force to help save the lost and prepare for the coming
 > Tribulation, in which God will rain down judgment on the world for
 > seven years. This complete story is told in dramatized fashion in
 > the following 12 books:
 > Left Behind
 > Tribulation Force
 > Nicolae
 > Soul Harvest
 > Apollyon
 > Assassins
 > The Indwelling
 > The Mark
 > Desecration
 > The Remnant
 > Armageddon
 > Glorious Appearing
 >
 > Although this series has been posted many times, this is your
 > opportunity to get it at a bit rate of 192KBps.
 >
 > If you just wish to sample one of the episodes before committing to
 > the entire download, you can download episode 62 - Farewell To A
 > Friend, taken from the book entitled Assassins at the following link:
 >
 > <http://www.sendspace.com/file/4ksxbx>http://www.sendspace.com/file/4ksxbx
 >
 > If after sampling the above episode, and you want the entire audio
 > series, then you can download The entire Left Behind Dramatized
 > version at 192KBps from the following links:
 >
 > 01 Left Behind
 > Download Part 1 Here
 > <http://www.sendspace.com/file/b58oiv>http://www.sendspace.com/file/b58oiv
 >
 > Download Part 2 Here
 > <http://www.sendspace.com/file/j7uj0o>http://www.sendspace.com/file/j7uj0o
 >
 >
 > 02 Tribulation Force
 > Download Part 1 Here
 > <http://www.sendspace.com/file/b47u1a>http://www.sendspace.com/file/b47u1a
 >
 > Download Part 2 Here
 > <http://www.sendspace.com/file/my4hlh>http://www.sendspace.com/file/my4hlh
 >
 >
 > 03 Nicolae
 > Download Part 1 Here
 > <http://www.sendspace.com/file/75tbtj>http://www.sendspace.com/file/75tbtj
 >
 > Download Part 2 Here
 > <http://www.sendspace.com/file/200soy>http://www.sendspace.com/file/200soy
 >
 >
 > 04 Soul Harvest
 > Download Part 1 Here
 > <http://www.sendspace.com/file/mx74m2>http://www.sendspace.com/file/mx74m2
 >
 > Download Part 2 Here
 > <http://www.sendspace.com/file/6k9cvu>http://www.sendspace.com/file/6k9cvu
 >
 >
 > 05 Apollyon
 > Download Part 1 Here
 > <http://www.sendspace.com/file/9psp5o>http://www.sendspace.com/file/9psp5o
 >
 > Download Part 2 Here
 > <http://www.sendspace.com/file/bj127l>http://www.sendspace.com/file/bj127l
 >
 >
 > 06 Assassins
 > Download Part 1 Here
 > <http://www.sendspace.com/file/fo3s7e>http://www.sendspace.com/file/fo3s7e
 >
 > Download Part 2 Here
 > <http://www.sendspace.com/file/u6m59n>http://www.sendspace.com/file/u6m59n
 >
 >
 > 07 The Indwelling
 > Download Part 1 Here
 > <http://www.sendspace.com/file/7pbuum>http://www.sendspace.com/file/7pbuum
 >
 > Download Part 2 Here
 > <http://www.sendspace.com/file/t4dotr>http://www.sendspace.com/file/t4dotr
 >
 >
 > 08 The Mark
 > Download Part 1 Here
 > <http://www.sendspace.com/file/2kz2ev>http://www.sendspace.com/file/2kz2ev
 >
 > Download Part 2 Here
 > <http://www.sendspace.com/file/99jzdi>http://www.sendspace.com/file/99jzdi
 >
 >
 > 09 Desecration
 > Download Part 1 Here
 > <http://www.sendspace.com/file/gncsyj>http://www.sendspace.com/file/gncsyj
 >
 > Download Part 2 Here
 > <http://www.sendspace.com/file/4ntb49>http://www.sendspace.com/file/4ntb49
 >
 >
 > 10 The Remnant
 > Download Part 1 Here
 > <http://www.sendspace.com/file/whtwx0>http://www.sendspace.com/file/whtwx0
 >
 > Download Part 2 Here
 > <http://www.sendspace.com/file/wntkrd>http://www.sendspace.com/file/wntkrd
 >
 >
 > 11 Armageddon
 > Download Part 1 Here
 > <http://www.sendspace.com/file/ci7hix>http://www.sendspace.com/file/ci7hix
 >
 > Download Part 2 Here
 > <http://www.sendspace.com/file/aq0rqm>http://www.sendspace.com/file/aq0rqm
 >
 >
 > 12 Glorious Appearing
 > Download Part 1 Here
 > <http://www.sendspace.com/file/15vv00>http://www.sendspace.com/file/15vv00
 >
 > Download Part 2 Here
 > <http://www.sendspace.com/file/r56ov9>http://www.sendspace.com/file/r56ov9
 >
 > --
 > Joey Couch
 > home phone 606-910-2128 or 606-672-6554
 > Sell 606-216-0647
 > email
 > <mailto:joey.couch%40gmail.com>joey.couch at gmail.com
 > or
 > <mailto:ki4vjd%40arrl.net>ki4vjd at arrl.net
 > check out the KCB web site by going to
 > <http://www.kentucky-acb.org>http://www.kentucky-acb.org






From hjones711 at gmail.com  Sat Nov  1 04:24:47 2008
From: hjones711 at gmail.com (hannah jones)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 23:24:47 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Left Behind Series Dramatized Radio Version
In-Reply-To: <20081101033045.45E27AC93D@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
References: <20081101033045.45E27AC93D@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
Message-ID: <490BDA0F.2080400@gmail.com>

thats awesome


Linda Mentink wrote:
> I got this from another list, and thought some of you might want to 
> know about this.
>
> Left Behind Dramatized for radio, 192KBps crisp clear audio in 48 CDs 
> at SendSpace
>
> > If you like the Left Behind books I think you will like this so 
> download and enjoy
> > From: Edward <<mailto:Solid.Rock%40comcast.net>Solid.Rock at comcast.net
> >
> >
> > I want to thank Scott Lawlor for initially posting this for me.
> > The Left Behind series first appeared in book form. The drama
> > revealed in these books eventually resulted in a dramatized version
> > designed for radio. It is the radio dramatized version that is
> > featured here.
> >
> > The Left Behind dramatized audio series tells the story of the end
> > times, in which many have been "raptured," leaving the world
> > shattered and chaotic. As people scramble for answers, a Romanian
> > politician named Nicolae Carpathia rises to become secretary-general
> > of the United Nations, promising to restore peace and stability to
> > all nations. What most of the world does not realize is that
> > Carpathia is actually the Antichrist foretold from the Bible. This
> > gripping christian novel depicts the rise of the anti-christ to
> > secure world power only to be challenged by the real Christ in the
> > final book The Glorious Appearing.
> >
> > Coming to grips with the truth and becoming born-again Christians,
> > Rayford Steele, his daughter Chloe, their pastor Bruce Barnes, and
> > young journalist Cameron "Buck" Williams begin their quest as the
> > Tribulation Force to help save the lost and prepare for the coming
> > Tribulation, in which God will rain down judgment on the world for
> > seven years. This complete story is told in dramatized fashion in
> > the following 12 books:
> > Left Behind
> > Tribulation Force
> > Nicolae
> > Soul Harvest
> > Apollyon
> > Assassins
> > The Indwelling
> > The Mark
> > Desecration
> > The Remnant
> > Armageddon
> > Glorious Appearing
> >
> > Although this series has been posted many times, this is your
> > opportunity to get it at a bit rate of 192KBps.
> >
> > If you just wish to sample one of the episodes before committing to
> > the entire download, you can download episode 62 - Farewell To A
> > Friend, taken from the book entitled Assassins at the following link:
> >
> > 
> <http://www.sendspace.com/file/4ksxbx>http://www.sendspace.com/file/4ksxbx 
>
> >
> > If after sampling the above episode, and you want the entire audio
> > series, then you can download The entire Left Behind Dramatized
> > version at 192KBps from the following links:
> >
> > 01 Left Behind
> > Download Part 1 Here
> > 
> <http://www.sendspace.com/file/b58oiv>http://www.sendspace.com/file/b58oiv 
>
> >
> > Download Part 2 Here
> > 
> <http://www.sendspace.com/file/j7uj0o>http://www.sendspace.com/file/j7uj0o 
>
> >
> >
> > 02 Tribulation Force
> > Download Part 1 Here
> > 
> <http://www.sendspace.com/file/b47u1a>http://www.sendspace.com/file/b47u1a 
>
> >
> > Download Part 2 Here
> > 
> <http://www.sendspace.com/file/my4hlh>http://www.sendspace.com/file/my4hlh 
>
> >
> >
> > 03 Nicolae
> > Download Part 1 Here
> > 
> <http://www.sendspace.com/file/75tbtj>http://www.sendspace.com/file/75tbtj 
>
> >
> > Download Part 2 Here
> > 
> <http://www.sendspace.com/file/200soy>http://www.sendspace.com/file/200soy 
>
> >
> >
> > 04 Soul Harvest
> > Download Part 1 Here
> > 
> <http://www.sendspace.com/file/mx74m2>http://www.sendspace.com/file/mx74m2 
>
> >
> > Download Part 2 Here
> > 
> <http://www.sendspace.com/file/6k9cvu>http://www.sendspace.com/file/6k9cvu 
>
> >
> >
> > 05 Apollyon
> > Download Part 1 Here
> > 
> <http://www.sendspace.com/file/9psp5o>http://www.sendspace.com/file/9psp5o 
>
> >
> > Download Part 2 Here
> > 
> <http://www.sendspace.com/file/bj127l>http://www.sendspace.com/file/bj127l 
>
> >
> >
> > 06 Assassins
> > Download Part 1 Here
> > 
> <http://www.sendspace.com/file/fo3s7e>http://www.sendspace.com/file/fo3s7e 
>
> >
> > Download Part 2 Here
> > 
> <http://www.sendspace.com/file/u6m59n>http://www.sendspace.com/file/u6m59n 
>
> >
> >
> > 07 The Indwelling
> > Download Part 1 Here
> > 
> <http://www.sendspace.com/file/7pbuum>http://www.sendspace.com/file/7pbuum 
>
> >
> > Download Part 2 Here
> > 
> <http://www.sendspace.com/file/t4dotr>http://www.sendspace.com/file/t4dotr 
>
> >
> >
> > 08 The Mark
> > Download Part 1 Here
> > 
> <http://www.sendspace.com/file/2kz2ev>http://www.sendspace.com/file/2kz2ev 
>
> >
> > Download Part 2 Here
> > 
> <http://www.sendspace.com/file/99jzdi>http://www.sendspace.com/file/99jzdi 
>
> >
> >
> > 09 Desecration
> > Download Part 1 Here
> > 
> <http://www.sendspace.com/file/gncsyj>http://www.sendspace.com/file/gncsyj 
>
> >
> > Download Part 2 Here
> > 
> <http://www.sendspace.com/file/4ntb49>http://www.sendspace.com/file/4ntb49 
>
> >
> >
> > 10 The Remnant
> > Download Part 1 Here
> > 
> <http://www.sendspace.com/file/whtwx0>http://www.sendspace.com/file/whtwx0 
>
> >
> > Download Part 2 Here
> > 
> <http://www.sendspace.com/file/wntkrd>http://www.sendspace.com/file/wntkrd 
>
> >
> >
> > 11 Armageddon
> > Download Part 1 Here
> > 
> <http://www.sendspace.com/file/ci7hix>http://www.sendspace.com/file/ci7hix 
>
> >
> > Download Part 2 Here
> > 
> <http://www.sendspace.com/file/aq0rqm>http://www.sendspace.com/file/aq0rqm 
>
> >
> >
> > 12 Glorious Appearing
> > Download Part 1 Here
> > 
> <http://www.sendspace.com/file/15vv00>http://www.sendspace.com/file/15vv00 
>
> >
> > Download Part 2 Here
> > 
> <http://www.sendspace.com/file/r56ov9>http://www.sendspace.com/file/r56ov9 
>
> >
> > --
> > Joey Couch
> > home phone 606-910-2128 or 606-672-6554
> > Sell 606-216-0647
> > email
> > <mailto:joey.couch%40gmail.com>joey.couch at gmail.com
> > or
> > <mailto:ki4vjd%40arrl.net>ki4vjd at arrl.net
> > check out the KCB web site by going to
> > <http://www.kentucky-acb.org>http://www.kentucky-acb.org
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/hjones711%40gmail.com 
>
>




From bethkats at cox.net  Sun Nov  2 01:13:33 2008
From: bethkats at cox.net (Beth Kats)
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 18:13:33 -0700
Subject: [Faith-talk] an email from wesley here is a prayer request
	frommyfamily
In-Reply-To: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAALu0UnEi21pCrpPgPaHqjsrCgAAAEAAAAJiKDZg3e69PtRyMCUu7+Z4BAAAAAA==@grandecom.net>
References: <A06481C72F87467880BC391F93E2673D@Buster>
	<!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAALu0UnEi21pCrpPgPaHqjsrCgAAAEAAAAJiKDZg3e69PtRyMCUu7+Z4BAAAAAA==@grandecom.net>
Message-ID: <000001c93c88$3a07fa70$27916f44@windows6996273>

I will pray for you.  It must be really difficult for you!  It sounds like
it is!  Please pray for me.  I am in lots of pain pretty much all the time
with back pain, heacaches, neck pain, and leg pain.  I had this for a long
time, but it seems to be worse.
Beth

-----Original Message-----
From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Mary Ellen Sanchez
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 1:12 PM
To: 'Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion'
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] an email from wesley here is a prayer request
frommyfamily

Hello wesley please know I will pray for your and your family during this
time. 

-----Original Message-----
From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of WESLEY BURDEN
Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2008 2:23 PM
To: 'Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion'
Subject: [Faith-talk] an email from wesley here is a prayer request from
myfamily

Dear group list:
I would like to ask for prayers for my family.  We are going through a trial
right now.  We just had a tragic loss in my family.  My aunt beatris just
had open heart surgery and praise god the surgery went very well.  The
surgery was a huge success however, my uncle jerry shot himself.  This is a
very difficult time right now for me and my family list.  I know when
prayers go up the blessing comes down.  I just ask for prayer that god gets
us through this tragedy that took place in are family.  I am in a state of
shock and surprise that this happened because there was no signs of trouble
on the horizon.  My uncle jerry was a great family man that loved the lord
but some how something went terribly wrong to cause him to decide to end his
life.  are church is surprised as well.  So please pray for my family.
 
Your friend in christ
 
wesley from new jersey
 
 
 
_______________________________________________
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Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Faith-talk:
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randecom.net




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From hjones711 at gmail.com  Sun Nov  2 01:35:37 2008
From: hjones711 at gmail.com (hannah jones)
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 20:35:37 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] the call
Message-ID: <490D03E9.9000405@gmail.com>

is anyone else watching the call san diago? it is good!



From albertyoo1 at hotmail.com  Sun Nov  2 23:57:46 2008
From: albertyoo1 at hotmail.com (Albert Yoo)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 18:57:46 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] the call
In-Reply-To: <490D03E9.9000405@gmail.com>
References: <490D03E9.9000405@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BLU146-W2089CF7DE35C475F209C0F8B220@phx.gbl>


ANother question I had for the list. I was confused in today's service. What does predestination mean? What is the elect? What is the doctrine of predestination?There are so many parts to the predestination. Albert 


> Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 20:35:37 -0500
> From: hjones711 at gmail.com
> To: faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> Subject: [Faith-talk] the call
>
> is anyone else watching the call san diago? it is good!
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/albertyoo1%40hotmail.com

_________________________________________________________________
When your life is on the go?take your life with you.
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/115298558/direct/01/


From lynnwhite51 at sbcglobal.net  Mon Nov  3 00:23:34 2008
From: lynnwhite51 at sbcglobal.net (BMW)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 18:23:34 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] the call
In-Reply-To: <BLU146-W2089CF7DE35C475F209C0F8B220@phx.gbl>
References: <490D03E9.9000405@gmail.com>
	<BLU146-W2089CF7DE35C475F209C0F8B220@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <62AD3CB015D940E496116080D1ACA938@lynnwhitePC>

Hi,

The elect are those who have been chosen by the Lord to follow him.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Albert Yoo" <albertyoo1 at hotmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 5:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] the call



ANother question I had for the list. I was confused in today's service. What 
does predestination mean? What is the elect? What is the doctrine of 
predestination?There are so many parts to the predestination. Albert


> Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 20:35:37 -0500
> From: hjones711 at gmail.com
> To: faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> Subject: [Faith-talk] the call
>
> is anyone else watching the call san diago? it is good!
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/albertyoo1%40hotmail.com

_________________________________________________________________
When your life is on the go?take your life with you.
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/115298558/direct/01/
_______________________________________________
Faith-talk mailing list
Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
Faith-talk:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/lynnwhite51%40sbcglobal.net 




From trising at sbcglobal.net  Mon Nov  3 01:56:41 2008
From: trising at sbcglobal.net (trising at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 20:56:41 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] the call
References: <490D03E9.9000405@gmail.com>
	<BLU146-W2089CF7DE35C475F209C0F8B220@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <908FE9783F5D44A9A4E153DFF9C3A475@nickf1758c2c9d>

Predestination is the doctrine that states that God chooses those who will 
be saved. Unless we have the Holy spirit calling us, we will not have the 
faith to choose him. Of course he knows whom he calls. If he calls us, he 
also justifies us. A good definition of justification is that he puts us in 
right standing with him, through Christ's death on the cross. It is just as 
if I have never sinned. Since he chose us and called us and justified us, he 
also sanctifies us, or makes us more like Him each day. Those he chose, 
called, justified, and sanctified, he will also glorify. He will bring us to 
heaven to live with him. Our glorification will not happen until we get to 
heaven. Read Romans 8. I have just given you a very loose paraphrase of it. 
The most amazing  part is Romans 8 35 to 39. He talks about loving us so 
much that nothing in the world, or out of it,  can separate us from His 
love. Hope this is clearer than mud! 




From albertyoo1 at hotmail.com  Mon Nov  3 02:28:07 2008
From: albertyoo1 at hotmail.com (Albert Yoo)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 21:28:07 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] the call
In-Reply-To: <62AD3CB015D940E496116080D1ACA938@lynnwhitePC>
References: <490D03E9.9000405@gmail.com>
	<BLU146-W2089CF7DE35C475F209C0F8B220@phx.gbl> 
	<62AD3CB015D940E496116080D1ACA938@lynnwhitePC>
Message-ID: <BLU146-W5E7E4F585FB6220B25DCE8B1D0@phx.gbl>


Bmw, is there rules the chosen people have to follow t know the lord as the elect? Albert


> From: lynnwhite51 at sbcglobal.net
> To: faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 18:23:34 -0600
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] the call
>
> Hi,
>
> The elect are those who have been chosen by the Lord to follow him.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Albert Yoo" 
> To: "Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion"
> 
> Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 5:57 PM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] the call
>
>
>
> ANother question I had for the list. I was confused in today's service. What
> does predestination mean? What is the elect? What is the doctrine of
> predestination?There are so many parts to the predestination. Albert
>
>
>> Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 20:35:37 -0500
>> From: hjones711 at gmail.com
>> To: faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> Subject: [Faith-talk] the call
>>
>> is anyone else watching the call san diago? it is good!
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/albertyoo1%40hotmail.com
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> When your life is on the go?take your life with you.
> http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/115298558/direct/01/
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/lynnwhite51%40sbcglobal.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/albertyoo1%40hotmail.com

_________________________________________________________________
Stay organized with simple drag and drop from Windows Live Hotmail.
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From mentink at frontiernet.net  Mon Nov  3 04:10:14 2008
From: mentink at frontiernet.net (Linda Mentink)
Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 22:10:14 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] the call
In-Reply-To: <BLU146-W2089CF7DE35C475F209C0F8B220@phx.gbl>
References: <490D03E9.9000405@gmail.com>
	<BLU146-W2089CF7DE35C475F209C0F8B220@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20081103041014.0DA89CCB88@relay04.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>

Hi Albert,

I might add to what has already been said that 
predestination doesn't mean we shouldn't pray for 
salvation for our relatives, friends, neighbors, 
acquaintances, and those in authority over 
us.  We don't know who is predestinated and who 
isn't; only God knows that, and He is not willing 
that any should perish, but that all should come 
to repentance.  Don't try to figure it all out; 
just read and study your Bible, pray, worship 
regularly, and take God at His Word.  There are 
many things which we won't know and understand 
until we are around God's throne in Heaven.

Blessings,

Linda

At 05:57 PM 11/2/2008, you wrote:

>ANother question I had for the list. I was 
>confused in today's service. What does 
>predestination mean? What is the elect? What is 
>the doctrine of predestination?There are so many 
>parts to the predestination. Albert
>
>
> > Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 20:35:37 -0500
> > From: hjones711 at gmail.com
> > To: faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> > Subject: [Faith-talk] the call
> >
> > is anyone else watching the call san diago? it is good!
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Faith-talk mailing list
> > Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or 
> get your account info for Faith-talk:
> > 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/albertyoo1%40hotmail.com
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>When your life is on the go?take your life with you.
>http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/115298558/direct/01/
>_______________________________________________
>Faith-talk mailing list
>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get 
>your account info for Faith-talk:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net





From iamantonio at cox.net  Mon Nov  3 04:50:18 2008
From: iamantonio at cox.net (Antonio Guimaraes)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 23:50:18 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] the call
References: <490D03E9.9000405@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CBB67CF41D7E4E9F809C30553FB03E97@homeb5fa>

Hi,

So, acording to the doctrine of predestination, God has already decided who 
will follow him? I may or may not be destined to ascend to heaven? Then, 
what is it worth the effort, if said effort may be fruitless?

I always believed, and learned that God died for ALL people, and that Jesus 
suffered and died for all sins, notjust some selected group.

this doctrin is either misinterpreted, or it is wrong.

God knows all things, so he knows all of my choices, past, present, and 
future. He knows how many times I'll attend church durring my lifetime, and 
more importantly, he knows whether I will choose a christ-centered life that 
will leed to salvation. But he didn't choose to save me, he gave me the 
choice. He just happens to know what my choice will ultimately be. Isn't 
this how it goes?

Antonio Guimaraes

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "hannah jones" <hjones711 at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 8:35 PM
Subject: [Faith-talk] the call


> is anyone else watching the call san diago? it is good!
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/iamantonio%40cox.net
>
>
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.549 / Virus Database: 270.8.5/1762 - Release 
> Date: 11/2/2008 9:51 AM
>
> 




From sslucki at chariot.net.au  Mon Nov  3 09:39:03 2008
From: sslucki at chariot.net.au (Stefan Slucki)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 20:09:03 +1030
Subject: [Faith-talk] predestination
References: <490D03E9.9000405@gmail.com>
	<CBB67CF41D7E4E9F809C30553FB03E97@homeb5fa>
Message-ID: <10AA231D17A74DC4A2376FCFFA7D0C27@stefan706c912c>

Hi Antonio and list members,

Well Antonio, it absolutely does matter about what we think about and how we 
respond to this matter, in my understanding.

I understand that God's Word Reveals to us two sides of the Salvation coin. 
God's Side -- Predestination also called Foreordination and man's side i.e. 
responding in personal faith-trust to the Gracious Invitation of Jesus 
"whosoever will let him come to me" "whoever comes to me I will never drive 
away" [or cast out].

Different branches of the church emphasise either of these "sides".

For me, if God, in Christ, "died for all the world" every individual but has 
absolutely left the initiative (the first move) towards Salvation to man, 
then it's theoretically possible that Jesus Died for nothing and no one.

However, before He suffered and died on the cross, He repeatedly thanked the 
Father for Giving Him a People and Affirmed that He would Securely 
Accomplish their Salvation.

As has been said on list, already, read your Bible carefully and prayerfully 
and see which statements support these two "sides".

Whichever position a Christian holds (and we are all somewhat inconsistent 
at points) the question we must firstly settle with the Lord for ourselves 
and direct our searching or unsaved friends to answer is:  if I am a guilty 
sinner before a Holy God, how can I be acquitted of my guilt for my sin?

The answer is, of course, by throwing ourselves on God's Mercy in Christ, 
trusting Jesus' Promises of Forgiveness and Life and showing evidence of 
that trust by repenting of our sin.

I hope that is as helpful a reflection to you on this fascinating doctrine 
as it was for me when I first came to grips with it.

Stefan Slucki. 




From poetlori8 at msn.com  Mon Nov  3 12:33:28 2008
From: poetlori8 at msn.com (Barbara Hammel)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 06:33:28 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] the call
In-Reply-To: <490D03E9.9000405@gmail.com>
	<CBB67CF41D7E4E9F809C30553FB03E97@homeb5fa>
References: <490D03E9.9000405@gmail.com>
	<CBB67CF41D7E4E9F809C30553FB03E97@homeb5fa>
Message-ID: <BAY113-DS3A9477A69758F92867261EB1D0@phx.gbl>

It's not fruitless because you can't see the book He has.  God knew from the 
beginning of time who would choose to call upon His name.
|His hope is the all people would come to a saving knowledge of Him that's 
why He died for all of us.  He's offering the free gift of eternal life to 
everyone, it's just up to each of us to reach out and take the gift.
Barbara

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Antonio Guimaraes" <iamantonio at cox.net>
Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 10:50 PM
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] the call

> Hi,
>
> So, acording to the doctrine of predestination, God has already decided 
> who will follow him? I may or may not be destined to ascend to heaven? 
> Then, what is it worth the effort, if said effort may be fruitless?
>
> I always believed, and learned that God died for ALL people, and that 
> Jesus suffered and died for all sins, notjust some selected group.
>
> this doctrin is either misinterpreted, or it is wrong.
>
> God knows all things, so he knows all of my choices, past, present, and 
> future. He knows how many times I'll attend church durring my lifetime, 
> and more importantly, he knows whether I will choose a christ-centered 
> life that will leed to salvation. But he didn't choose to save me, he gave 
> me the choice. He just happens to know what my choice will ultimately be. 
> Isn't this how it goes?
>
> Antonio Guimaraes
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "hannah jones" <hjones711 at gmail.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 8:35 PM
> Subject: [Faith-talk] the call
>
>
>> is anyone else watching the call san diago? it is good!
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/iamantonio%40cox.net
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.549 / Virus Database: 270.8.5/1762 - Release 
>> Date: 11/2/2008 9:51 AM
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
> 



From albertyoo1 at hotmail.com  Mon Nov  3 13:35:51 2008
From: albertyoo1 at hotmail.com (Albert Yoo)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 08:35:51 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] the call
In-Reply-To: <20081103041014.0DA89CCB88@relay04.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
References: <490D03E9.9000405@gmail.com>
	<BLU146-W2089CF7DE35C475F209C0F8B220@phx.gbl> 
	<20081103041014.0DA89CCB88@relay04.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
Message-ID: <BLU146-W1145A08A535F903E03A4C48B1D0@phx.gbl>


Linda, I asked about the elect because the message was confusing the way our pastor described. I got done listening to the message and closing prayer and didn't even know where to ask the next question for clarification of the confusion. Believe I am taking baby steps trying to learn what the elect is just to get rid of confusion rather figure everything out right now. I am trying to learn and understand the elect because next week he will continue with another message on the elect. Albert


> Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 22:10:14 -0600
> To: faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> From: mentink at frontiernet.net
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] the call
>
> Hi Albert,
>
> I might add to what has already been said that
> predestination doesn't mean we shouldn't pray for
> salvation for our relatives, friends, neighbors,
> acquaintances, and those in authority over
> us. We don't know who is predestinated and who
> isn't; only God knows that, and He is not willing
> that any should perish, but that all should come
> to repentance. Don't try to figure it all out;
> just read and study your Bible, pray, worship
> regularly, and take God at His Word. There are
> many things which we won't know and understand
> until we are around God's throne in Heaven.
>
> Blessings,
>
> Linda
>
> At 05:57 PM 11/2/2008, you wrote:
>
>>ANother question I had for the list. I was
>>confused in today's service. What does
>>predestination mean? What is the elect? What is
>>the doctrine of predestination?There are so many
>>parts to the predestination. Albert
>>
>>
>>> Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 20:35:37 -0500
>>> From: hjones711 at gmail.com
>>> To: faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> Subject: [Faith-talk] the call
>>>
>>> is anyone else watching the call san diago? it is good!
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or
>> get your account info for Faith-talk:
>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/albertyoo1%40hotmail.com
>>
>>_________________________________________________________________
>>When your life is on the go?take your life with you.
>>http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/115298558/direct/01/
>>_______________________________________________
>>Faith-talk mailing list
>>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get
>>your account info for Faith-talk:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/albertyoo1%40hotmail.com

_________________________________________________________________
Store, manage and share up to 5GB with Windows Live SkyDrive.
http://skydrive.live.com/welcome.aspx?provision=1?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_skydrive_102008


From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Mon Nov  3 16:23:15 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 10:23:15 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] All Who Post are Baptists so Far
Message-ID: <E974904380B949A09E04492613750A80@your4dacd0ea75>

In the Church of God in Christ and I'm sure that in Assemblies of God and other Pentecostal churches, we speak of those who back-slide, that is, people who walk away from the Lord.  Some never look back.  It is important, therefore, when you ask God for forgiveness of sins to keep a short account.  Even if you're in a situation where you think you can do a better job in an area of your life than God, you are in danger of back-sliding and you must repent for lack of trust in God.  My down-fall in this area is finances.  I like to control my life, but God is the Ultimate Control person and He knows what we need before we ask.

There is no one more forgiving and loving than God.  Your family is the probably the second class who will accept you for who you are, but God directs you because of whose you are, Christ's.

It is truly tragic to see people who walk away from God, people that you thought would stay with God forever, like you plan to do.

 I had a pastor and an organ player friend who were both phenomenal musicians and I ministered in music with them at St. Mark AME Church in Duluth.  This organ player and pastor were tragically killed in a van-trail-truck collision.  That was five years ago and there are people who went to St. Mark at that time who still have no fellowship with God.  I play at one church and try to attend another, but I cannot enter the door of St. Mark and there are others like me.  Some still worship God, but some blame God for what happened and say, "Just think what this church could have been doing now if they had still lived.  Nothing can separate you from the love of God, but you yourself can decide to walk away with no look back.

"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul," American Humorist Mark Twain

"An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind

"A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV

"Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)

"No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push, 1976.

"With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic," the Late Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation of the Blind.

Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com 





From everettg at successfuladaptations.com  Mon Nov  3 17:20:31 2008
From: everettg at successfuladaptations.com (Everett Gavel)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 12:20:31 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Emergency Call-In Number If You Experience Problems
	With the Accessible Voting Machines
Message-ID: <002e01c93dd8$79cd0780$f421a463@IBMB7D6F383D44>

Regarding the accessible voting machines:

If anyone has any voting problems tomorrow, such as 
with the people there not knowing why the machine may 
not be working properly, tell them to call--or you can 
call for them: 1-866-NFB-1940.

This is an emergency call-in, live help line to help 
instruct voters and voting booth workers on how to get 
the machines running, how to run the machines, how to 
fix any possible problems, all so that blind voters may 
get to vote.  I suggest even if you have no problems 
tomorrow, pass along the number to someone in charge at 
your local office, so that any who come to vote after 
you may be kept from the all too typical ignorance that 
abounds.  People usually want and try to help, but 
often are somewhat clueless as to what to do to get the 
machines working properly if problems arise.  Call 
1-866-NFB-1940 to help them get clear, concise answers 
to fix the problem, immediately.  In fact, I urge you 
to call your county's voting office today, and pass 
along the emergency number, to make sure they pass 
along the number to all their reps by tomorrow.  Hey, 
we can always hope, can't we?

1-866-NFB-1940


Strive On!
Everett
everettg at successfuladaptations.com







From mentink at frontiernet.net  Mon Nov  3 17:01:31 2008
From: mentink at frontiernet.net (Linda Mentink)
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 11:01:31 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] the call
In-Reply-To: <BLU146-W1145A08A535F903E03A4C48B1D0@phx.gbl>
References: <490D03E9.9000405@gmail.com>
	<BLU146-W2089CF7DE35C475F209C0F8B220@phx.gbl>
	<20081103041014.0DA89CCB88@relay04.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
	<BLU146-W1145A08A535F903E03A4C48B1D0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20081103170131.3A97CAC9F4@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>

Albert, for now, think of the elect as those who 
know Christ as their personal Saviour, that is, who are born again.  HTH.

Blessings,

Linda

At 07:35 AM 11/3/2008, you wrote:

>Linda, I asked about the elect because the 
>message was confusing the way our pastor 
>described. I got done listening to the message 
>and closing prayer and didn't even know where to 
>ask the next question for clarification of the 
>confusion. Believe I am taking baby steps trying 
>to learn what the elect is just to get rid of 
>confusion rather figure everything out right 
>now. I am trying to learn and understand the 
>elect because next week he will continue with 
>another message on the elect. Albert
>
>
> > Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 22:10:14 -0600
> > To: faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> > From: mentink at frontiernet.net
> > Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] the call
> >
> > Hi Albert,
> >
> > I might add to what has already been said that
> > predestination doesn't mean we shouldn't pray for
> > salvation for our relatives, friends, neighbors,
> > acquaintances, and those in authority over
> > us. We don't know who is predestinated and who
> > isn't; only God knows that, and He is not willing
> > that any should perish, but that all should come
> > to repentance. Don't try to figure it all out;
> > just read and study your Bible, pray, worship
> > regularly, and take God at His Word. There are
> > many things which we won't know and understand
> > until we are around God's throne in Heaven.
> >
> > Blessings,
> >
> > Linda
> >
> > At 05:57 PM 11/2/2008, you wrote:
> >
> >>ANother question I had for the list. I was
> >>confused in today's service. What does
> >>predestination mean? What is the elect? What is
> >>the doctrine of predestination?There are so many
> >>parts to the predestination. Albert
> >>
> >>
> >>> Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 20:35:37 -0500
> >>> From: hjones711 at gmail.com
> >>> To: faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> >>> Subject: [Faith-talk] the call
> >>>
> >>> is anyone else watching the call san diago? it is good!
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Faith-talk mailing list
> >>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or
> >> get your account info for Faith-talk:
> >>>
> >> 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/albertyoo1%40hotmail.com
> >>
> >>_________________________________________________________________
> >>When your life is on the go?take your life with you.
> >>http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/115298558/direct/01/
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>Faith-talk mailing list
> >>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get
> >>your account info for Faith-talk:
> >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-ta 
> lk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Faith-talk mailing list
> > Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or 
> get your account info for Faith-talk:
> > 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/albertyoo1%40hotmail.com
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Store, manage and share up to 5GB with Windows Live SkyDrive.
>http://skydrive.live.com/welcome.aspx?provision=1?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_skydrive_102008
>_______________________________________________
>Faith-talk mailing list
>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get 
>your account info for Faith-talk:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net





From everettg at successfuladaptations.com  Mon Nov  3 18:19:44 2008
From: everettg at successfuladaptations.com (Everett Gavel)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 13:19:44 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Addendum: Emergency Call-In Number If You Experience
	Problems With the Accessible Voting Machines
Message-ID: <003e01c93de0$bfa17d10$f421a463@IBMB7D6F383D44>

Sorry Folks, I gave the wrong number:

We just had our state NFB convention this past weekend, 
and when they announced that number, I'd have sworn 
they said it was an 866 toll-free number, not 877.  So 
that's why I said 866, whereas the message below says 
877.  I just called the national office for 
clarification.  It is an 877 number.  So I was 
incorrect earlier, the correct number to call for help 
is 1-877-NFB-1940.  ;-)

Strive On!
Everett


----- Original Message ----- 
> Dear Federationists,
> Please do not forget our voting lifeline on Tuesday 
> 4, November. If problems persist in your polling 
> presinct, there is help with the equipment from 7:00 
> a.m. - 10:00 p.m. If you encounter difficulty pick up 
> a phone and call 1-877-NFB-1940. Technicians will be 
> standing by. Call from your place in line at the 
> moment of difficulty not after the fact. Many people 
> fought hard to gain this right for us to be able to 
> vote as can every other American, exercise our right. 
> Thank you,
> Joe Shaw



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Everett Gavel" 
<everettg at successfuladaptations.com>
Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 12:20 PM
Subject: Emergency Call-In Number If You Experience 
Problems With the Accessible Voting Machines

Regarding the accessible voting machines:

If anyone has any voting problems tomorrow, such as
with the people there not knowing why the machine may
not be working properly, tell them to call--or you can
call for them: 1-866-NFB-1940.

This is an emergency call-in, live help line to help
instruct voters and voting booth workers on how to get
the machines running, how to run the machines, how to
fix any possible problems, all so that blind voters may
get to vote.  I suggest even if you have no problems
tomorrow, pass along the number to someone in charge at
your local office, so that any who come to vote after
you may be kept from the all too typical ignorance that
abounds.  People usually want and try to help, but
often are somewhat clueless as to what to do to get the
machines working properly if problems arise.  Call
1-866-NFB-1940 to help them get clear, concise answers
to fix the problem, immediately.  In fact, I urge you
to call your county's voting office today, and pass
along the emergency number, to make sure they pass
along the number to all their reps by tomorrow.  Hey,
we can always hope, can't we?

1-866-NFB-1940


Strive On!
Everett
everettg at successfuladaptations.com







From wesley.burden at verizon.net  Mon Nov  3 19:05:31 2008
From: wesley.burden at verizon.net (WESLEY BURDEN)
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 14:05:31 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] FW: [BlindMen4Christ] A Brighter Tomorrow
Message-ID: <225D075DBE2B4B67824F1938004B7577@Buster>

 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindmen4christ-bounces at morales-family.lljfm.net
[mailto:blindmen4christ-bounces at morales-family.lljfm.net] On Behalf Of Stu
(by way of Curtis Delzer <curtis at calweb.com>)
Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 12:04 PM
To: Blind men for Christ
Subject: [BlindMen4Christ] A Brighter Tomorrow

Character Counts

"Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that
suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character,
hope."

Interestingly enough, where I grew up (quite a few years ago now), in our
grade school English classes every story we read had a moral, and over the
door of every class room was written a motto such as, "Whatever your hand
finds to do, do it with your might," that was quoted from the Bible. We were
also taught the importance of keeping one's word. In fact, a man's word was
his honor. It was a mark of character!

Furthermore, every week during school hours students had to attend a
religious instruction class of their choice. One had to have a letter from
one's parents if he/she were to be excused from attending.

But where have those values gone today? Cheating in school is the norm for
far too many students. Recently we heard on TV how one teacher failed a
student whom she caught cheating on her final exam. The cheater's parents
were so outraged that this teacher was forced to resign! Teaching at Harvard
Business School several years ago, Chuck Colson noted that the students
didn't have a clue about ethics. Hence we reap results such as the Enron
debacle. And millions, at least in the Western world, are spending millions
every year on getting rid of wrinkles and the like because they are much
more concerned with their external image and appearance than inner
character.

It seems for many that we have forgotten that character counts!

According to the organization, Character Counts, "The Six Pillars of
Character are: trustworthiness, respect, responsibility, fairness, caring,
and citizenship," to which we could add a seventh, personal honesty.

Don Johnson, author and producer of "Afterglow,"
wrote, "Financier J. P. Morgan once commented that a man's best collateral
is his character. Alfred Armand Montapert said, 'Reputation is what folks
think you are. Personality is what you seem to be. Character is what you
really are.' House Speaker, Jim Wright, upon his resignation, quoted Horace
Greely who stated, 'Fame is a vapor, popularity an accident, riches take
wings, those who cheer today may curse tomorrow, only one thing
endures--character.' Charles Spurgeon wrote, 'A good character is the best
tombstone. Those who loved you, and were helped by you, will remember you
when forget-me-nots are withered. Carve your name on hearts, and not on
marble.'

"Someone has said 'character is what you'd do if you knew no one would ever
find out.' I like Samuel Smiles words, 'Sow a thought and you reap an act,
sow an act and you reap a habit; sow a habit and you reap a character, sow a
character and you reap a destiny.'"

Whether we believe it or not, character does count--for time and, if you are
a Christian, for eternity!

Suggested prayer: "Dear God, please help me to always remember that
character counts and help me to so live that my life will always bring glory
and praise to your name. Thank you for hearing and answering my prayer.
Gratefully, in Jesus' name, amen."


Stu
<mailto:K5stu at sbcglobal.net>K5stu at sbcglobal.net
Reading your Bible today will help prepare you for A Brighter Tomorrow!
_______________________________________________
BlindMen4Christ mailing list
BlindMen4Christ at morales-family.lljfm.net
http://morales-family.lljfm.net/mailman/listinfo/blindmen4christ_morales-fam
ily.lljfm.net




From wesley.burden at verizon.net  Mon Nov  3 20:27:16 2008
From: wesley.burden at verizon.net (WESLEY BURDEN)
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 15:27:16 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] converting cassette tapes to audio cd
Message-ID: <00063D6103D14B669E034EC213C82566@Buster>

Good afternoon everyone:
I just wanted to let everyone know on the list that if you are in need of
having cassettes being converted to audio cd i have the equipment.  I know
that a lot of people have old cassette tapes laying around of devotionals
and other christian tapes around.  However, if you are in need of having
them being converted over to digital audio i have the equipment to do and
will just ask for a little donation.  If anybody is interested in having
their tapes converted over please let me know.  I even have the software to
clean up the tape quality once it gets to my computer so no need to worry
your old treasures can be restored.
 
wesley from new jersey
 
 


From everettg at successfuladaptations.com  Mon Nov  3 21:15:53 2008
From: everettg at successfuladaptations.com (Everett Gavel)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 16:15:53 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Scripture Regarding Predestination
References: <490D03E9.9000405@gmail.com>
	<CBB67CF41D7E4E9F809C30553FB03E97@homeb5fa>
Message-ID: <001b01c93df9$5adffeb0$f421a463@IBMB7D6F383D44>

Hello Antonio, and all,

My pastor can share the scripture and some specifics on 
Predestination much more clearly than I am able to 
right now.  So I asked him to help me respond to your 
questions and statements on this topic, Antonio.  His 
reply is below.  I hope it can help anyone reading 
this, with any questions you may have on this Biblical 
topic. All I ask of each of you who read it, and who 
may be Christ-followers, is to please pray first.  Ask 
God to lead you with His wisdom and His discernment on 
this topic.


God Bless Your Efforts--and Your Path,
Everett


----- Original Message ----- 
Antonio,

I would encourage you to read John 6 (whole chapter), 
Romans 9 (whole chapter), and Ephesians 1 (whole 
chapter).  We are not just taking out a few verses, but 
we are putting them in the context in which we find 
them, which, in the case for predestination (election), 
it is explain in whole chapters.  I would start there.

Secondly, you said, "Then, what is it worth the effort, 
if said effort may be fruitless?"  On this their are 
two important things: 1)  Your effort will never get 
you into heaven unless you are completely perfect!  You 
are not, and neither am I, and only Jesus is!  This is 
works based righteousness, and it is a sin (Eph. 
2:8-10; Isa.64:6).  In works based righteousness, 
rather than gift righteousness (2 Cor. 5:21, correct 
view), the question becomes, 'How good is good enough 
for God to love me?'  This is the wrong question to be 
asking.  How good is good enough to satisfy a holy 
angry God?  Answer: Perfection!  And unless you are 
perfect, you need grace, and that my friend is where 
the doctrine of predestination is such a beautiful 
thing.  Grace (gift righteousness) says, "God loves me, 
therefore I can become good."  Not, "If I become good 
by trying really hard, God will love me."  2) 
Predestination does not work like you think.  Again, 
going back to your quote, all your effort is useless, 
and it does not benefit a perfect God, but it is not in 
vain.  Listen carefully.  If you love Jesus, then you 
are predestined as one of his children.  If you ask the 
question, "Well, what if I love him and he doesn't love 
me," then you are of the elect.  God would never keep 
anyone from salvation that desired it!  But, the desire 
was not yours, it was by God's divine grace that you do 
desire him.  That is what makes election so beautiful! 
You don't deserve it, but he gives it to you, not 
because of you or anything you've done, but because of 
his amazing grace!  When properly understood, this will 
drop you to your face in humility, because you 
understand for the first time that God doesn't love you 
for the things you do, but that he loves you despite 
the things you do--which, in turn, will make you stop 
doing the stupid things you do.  Understand?

I have believed how you do, my friend, and I know the 
lonely and endless road of sin you are on, just trying 
to maintain your salvation until the end.  If you love 
Jesus, no one can pluck you from his hand, not even you 
(Jn. 10:28).

Third and finally, God does love the world, but that 
passage is speaking of those who are elect from the 
world, just has people from every nation, tongue, and 
tribe will be saved (Rev. 5).  Remember, if you want to 
be saved, you are elect; if you do not want to, you are 
not elect.  Simple.

If you have any questions either email Everett or 
myself at: jeremy at themovementchurch.info


In His Grip,

Pastor Jeremy



----- Original Message ----- 
Hi,

So, acording to the doctrine of predestination, God has
already decided who
will follow him? I may or may not be destined to ascend
to heaven? Then,
what is it worth the effort, if said effort may be
fruitless?

I always believed, and learned that God died for ALL
people, and that Jesus
suffered and died for all sins, notjust some selected
group.

this doctrin is either misinterpreted, or it is wrong.

God knows all things, so he knows all of my choices,
past, present, and
future. He knows how many times I'll attend church
durring my lifetime, and
more importantly, he knows whether I will choose a
christ-centered life that
will leed to salvation. But he didn't choose to save
me, he gave me the
choice. He just happens to know what my choice will
ultimately be. Isn't
this how it goes?

Antonio Guimaraes






From timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com  Mon Nov  3 22:43:51 2008
From: timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com (Frank Lordi)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 14:43:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Faith-talk] predestination
In-Reply-To: <10AA231D17A74DC4A2376FCFFA7D0C27@stefan706c912c>
Message-ID: <301998.85509.qm@web51911.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

This is a very interesting topic.

Now to me, predestination is not logical.  

Let me elaborate
We know God is good and loving.  
This seems to clash with the idea that some individuals are created for hell.

We know that men and angels have free will. 
Thus is our destiny not up to our choices, rather than some pre-set script?

Also important to note, we often forget that God exists outside of time.  So it must be considered that He knows all past, present, and future.  Thus God knows before our birth, what road we will choose in life.  This is how it was assured that Christ's sacrifice would not be in vein.  

Now i'm tempted to go off into more on the particular and anticedent<sp> will of God and other funs tuff but i do not want to end up in tangent land, so i will simply wrap things up here.

My over all point is that IMO predestination does not fit with logic and or what we know of God himself.


--- On Mon, 11/3/08, Stefan Slucki <sslucki at chariot.net.au> wrote:

> From: Stefan Slucki <sslucki at chariot.net.au>
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] predestination
> To: "Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Date: Monday, November 3, 2008, 4:39 AM
> Hi Antonio and list members,
> 
> Well Antonio, it absolutely does matter about what we think
> about and how we respond to this matter, in my
> understanding.
> 
> I understand that God's Word Reveals to us two sides of
> the Salvation coin. God's Side -- Predestination also
> called Foreordination and man's side i.e. responding in
> personal faith-trust to the Gracious Invitation of Jesus
> "whosoever will let him come to me" "whoever
> comes to me I will never drive away" [or cast out].
> 
> Different branches of the church emphasise either of these
> "sides".
> 
> For me, if God, in Christ, "died for all the
> world" every individual but has absolutely left the
> initiative (the first move) towards Salvation to man, then
> it's theoretically possible that Jesus Died for nothing
> and no one.
> 
> However, before He suffered and died on the cross, He
> repeatedly thanked the Father for Giving Him a People and
> Affirmed that He would Securely Accomplish their Salvation.
> 
> As has been said on list, already, read your Bible
> carefully and prayerfully and see which statements support
> these two "sides".
> 
> Whichever position a Christian holds (and we are all
> somewhat inconsistent at points) the question we must
> firstly settle with the Lord for ourselves and direct our
> searching or unsaved friends to answer is:  if I am a guilty
> sinner before a Holy God, how can I be acquitted of my guilt
> for my sin?
> 
> The answer is, of course, by throwing ourselves on
> God's Mercy in Christ, trusting Jesus' Promises of
> Forgiveness and Life and showing evidence of that trust by
> repenting of our sin.
> 
> I hope that is as helpful a reflection to you on this
> fascinating doctrine as it was for me when I first came to
> grips with it.
> 
> Stefan Slucki. 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
> account info for Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/timber_wolf899%40yahoo.com


      



From optasiaministry at juno.com  Mon Nov  3 22:45:45 2008
From: optasiaministry at juno.com (Thomas j Vos)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 16:45:45 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] RE Predestination
Message-ID: <20081103.164545.3672.0.optasiaministry@juno.com>

What you say, Stefan, rings true for me.
When Paul writes in Ephesians 2, that we are dead in our trespasses and
sins, the only hope we have is to be given new life, resurrected to new
life by the power and grace of Jesus Christ.
No one can give life to themselves, just as no one can give birth to
themselves -- Nicodemas' pointin John 3, which Jesus seems to agree with.
We are then called to faith of accepting God's word on this as true.
That kind of faith gives me a deep sense of security when I come face to
face with my ongoing sins.
I am held in stronger hands than my own.
Blessings,
Tom
____________________________________________________________
Shop now for huge discounts on quality surveillance cameras. Click here!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3mYPvCnJkIqXzqxc93P88jpGPvXEp0StrDqLLNWj0lR5LiKk/



From goldpen at frontiernet.net  Mon Nov  3 23:07:44 2008
From: goldpen at frontiernet.net (Penny Golden)
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 17:07:44 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] to the Moderator
In-Reply-To: <225D075DBE2B4B67824F1938004B7577@Buster>
References: <225D075DBE2B4B67824F1938004B7577@Buster>
Message-ID: <20081103230739.7A1AA1981D3@relay02.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>

Say, I have a list of articles that were sent to me.  the links to 
the articles are in the email which I received.
The articles are about Election, which has been the topic of late.
But I won't send the list of links without a go-ahead from HQ.
If you don't want the links to be on the list, why, I can always try 
to send them to any who might be interested in them.

But remember, I'm a little slow--too much school in my life.

Blessings,
Penny





From goldpen at frontiernet.net  Mon Nov  3 22:56:59 2008
From: goldpen at frontiernet.net (Penny Golden)
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 16:56:59 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Scripture Regarding Predestination
In-Reply-To: <001b01c93df9$5adffeb0$f421a463@IBMB7D6F383D44>
References: <490D03E9.9000405@gmail.com>
	<CBB67CF41D7E4E9F809C30553FB03E97@homeb5fa>
	<001b01c93df9$5adffeb0$f421a463@IBMB7D6F383D44>
Message-ID: <20081103225653.D374C1982BE@relay02.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>

The pastor's explanation of predestination and election were right on 
target Scripturally.
I would like to post articles--rather, the link where thee article 
could be downloaded.
There are several links in a message I received.  But I won't without 
permission from moderator.

Kindest regards,
and the Lord's blessing,
Penny





From mentink at frontiernet.net  Tue Nov  4 01:10:56 2008
From: mentink at frontiernet.net (Linda Mentink)
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 19:10:56 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Scripture Regarding Predestination
In-Reply-To: <20081103225653.D374C1982BE@relay02.roch.ny.frontiernet.net
 >
References: <490D03E9.9000405@gmail.com>
	<CBB67CF41D7E4E9F809C30553FB03E97@homeb5fa>
	<001b01c93df9$5adffeb0$f421a463@IBMB7D6F383D44>
	<20081103225653.D374C1982BE@relay02.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
Message-ID: <20081104011056.81E101981B0@relay02.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>

Go for it!

At 04:56 PM 11/3/2008, you wrote:
>The pastor's explanation of predestination and election were right 
>on target Scripturally.
>I would like to post articles--rather, the link where thee article 
>could be downloaded.
>There are several links in a message I received.  But I won't 
>without permission from moderator.
>
>Kindest regards,
>and the Lord's blessing,
>Penny
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Faith-talk mailing list
>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>for Faith-talk:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net





From everettg at successfuladaptations.com  Tue Nov  4 02:10:41 2008
From: everettg at successfuladaptations.com (Everett Gavel)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 21:10:41 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] predestination
References: <301998.85509.qm@web51911.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <002101c93e22$89ec8880$f421a463@IBMB7D6F383D44>

Hi Frank, and all,

Seeing as "logic" is not generally associated with 
believing in Christ, I thought this message I got today 
on a newly accessible book might be of interest.  Maybe 
it can help some here.


From: Christian Classics Ethereal Library
To view this newsletter on the Web, go to
www.ccel.org/newsletter/3/11

"Announcing 'Warranted Christian Belief'

This month we are thrilled to announce the addition of 
the book Warranted
Christian Belief 
[http://www.ccel.org/ccel/plantinga/warrant3.html] by 
Alvin
Plantinga, a philosopher Time magazine once called the 
"leading philosopher of
God." This book was published in 2000 by Oxford 
University Press which has
graciously given permission for us to put it online. 
Thanks!

Warranted Christian Belief 
[http://www.ccel.org/ccel/plantinga/warrant3.html]
is a philosophical defense of the reasonableness of 
belief in God and the great
matters of the faith."


May God Bless Your Reading,
Everett


----- Original Message ----- 
> Now to me, predestination is not logical.
>
>
> My over all point is that IMO predestination does not 
> fit with logic and or what we know of God himself.
>
>




From everettg at successfuladaptations.com  Tue Nov  4 03:33:53 2008
From: everettg at successfuladaptations.com (Everett Gavel)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 22:33:53 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] the call
References: <490D03E9.9000405@gmail.com><BLU146-W2089CF7DE35C475F209C0F8B220@phx.gbl>
	<908FE9783F5D44A9A4E153DFF9C3A475@nickf1758c2c9d>
Message-ID: <001001c93e2e$29444ed0$f421a463@IBMB7D6F383D44>

Also, I think the Pharoah is a great example here.  It 
specifically says that God hardened the Pharoah's 
heart.  He used the Pharoah to move the people (to put 
it mildly).  God uses some as examples, and some He 
chose to save.  Some, but not all.   We are all 
"eternal."  Not all of us are sure where we'll be 
spending eternity, though.

"Fear God, Not Man"


Everett
www.everettgavel.com

----- Original Message ----- 

> Predestination is the doctrine that states that God 
> chooses those who will be saved. Unless we have the 
> Holy spirit calling us, we will not have the faith to 
> choose him. Of course he knows whom he calls.





From goldpen at frontiernet.net  Tue Nov  4 04:29:23 2008
From: goldpen at frontiernet.net (Penny Golden)
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 22:29:23 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] converting cassette tapes to audio cd
In-Reply-To: <00063D6103D14B669E034EC213C82566@Buster>
References: <00063D6103D14B669E034EC213C82566@Buster>
Message-ID: <20081104042924.7B89BAC9A7@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>

Wesley, please tell what you are using to do the process of cassette 
to Digital audio.
I'm interested.
Kindest regards,
Penny
At 02:27 PM 11/3/2008, you wrote:
>Good afternoon everyone:
>I just wanted to let everyone know on the list that if you are in need of
>having cassettes being converted to audio cd i have the equipment.  I know
>that a lot of people have old cassette tapes laying around of devotionals
>and other christian tapes around.  However, if you are in need of having
>them being converted over to digital audio i have the equipment to do and
>will just ask for a little donation.  If anybody is interested in having
>their tapes converted over please let me know.  I even have the software to
>clean up the tape quality once it gets to my computer so no need to worry
>your old treasures can be restored.
>
>wesley from new jersey
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Faith-talk mailing list
>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>for Faith-talk:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/goldpen%40frontiernet.net





From goldpen at frontiernet.net  Tue Nov  4 04:31:50 2008
From: goldpen at frontiernet.net (Penny Golden)
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 22:31:50 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Article links--Election
Message-ID: <20081104043151.25EBDCCBB4@relay04.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>


>Penny Golden wrote:
>>Dear Jeff,
>>Could you recommend to me a basic article on election?  This has 
>>come up on a list for blind people that I am on.
>>I have Pink's book, but I need something less massive--though just 
>>as dependent upon Scripture.
>>Any suggestion would be welcome.
>Hi Pen,
>I have a number of quotes on election--some of which may suit what 
>you are looking for. Just click on whatever seems interesting--
>
>ELECTION & PREDESTINATION
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/6/practical_predestination.htm>Practical 
>Predestination
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/07/12/grace.html>All enameled and 
>interwoven with free grace!
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/6/angels_damned.htm>Angels damned, men saved?
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/6/plan.htm>The Plan!
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/6/a_base_heathenish_invention.htm>A base 
>heathenish invention!
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/6/hands_off.htm>Hands off, wicked and 
>profane wretches!
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/6/just_the_facts.htm>Just the facts, please . . .
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/06/05/question.html>The unanswerable question
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/6/eternal.htm>ETERNAL, ABSOLUTE PREDESTINATION!
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/6/subdued_by_sovereign_love1.htm>Subdued 
>by sovereign love!
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/2001-1/I%20have%20many%20people.htm>I have 
>many people in this city!
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/06/11/predestination.html>Absolute Predestination
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/2001-1/Our%20Pilot.htm>Our Pilot!
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/6/his_chosen_ones.htm>His chosen ones?
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/6/even_then.htm>Even then!
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/6/why.htm>WHY?
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/6/what.htm>What!
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/04/ravishing.html>How ravishing is the thought!
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/6/softest_pillow_and_the_strongest.htm>The 
>softest pillow and the strongest staff?
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/6/they_shall_be_my_people.htm>THEY SHALL 
>BE MY PEOPLE
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/6/Electing%20love.htm>Electing love!
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/07/05/book.html>The book of life
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/6/purpose_of_god.htm>THE PURPOSE OF GOD
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/6/sovereign_electing_grace_of_god.htm>The 
>Sovereign Electing Grace of God!
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/6/election.htm>ELECTION
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/6/divine_predestination.htm>Divine Predestination
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/6/who_chose_whom.htm>Who chose whom?
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/6/elected_and_called.htm>Elected and called...
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/6/all_glory_to_the_great_i_am.htm>All 
>glory to the great I AM
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/6/Ah%21%20but%20for%20free.htm>Ah! but for 
>free and sovereign grace!
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/6/election_on_a_grand_scale.htm>Election 
>on a grand scale!
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/6/election1.htm>Election...
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/6/election_and_predestination.htm>Election 
>and Predestination
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/6/be_diligent.htm>Be diligent!





From kk3f at msn.com  Tue Nov  4 05:19:30 2008
From: kk3f at msn.com (Pat Gormley)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 00:19:30 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] today is the day
Message-ID: <BAY133-DAV6E519BB5487A27F49C225901C0@phx.gbl>

It's just after midnight here on the east coast.  So today is the day that we first pray, second seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit and third get to your polling place and vote no matter how long it takes.  For the unitiated, ask for the audio ballot.  All the states have to have at least one voting machine that will accommodate this ballot.  If they don't or people have other problems, please call the nfb at 877-632-1940.  It's incumbent on people who are having problems to call this number since in most cases, we have a right to a secret ballot.  Boy it's an exhilarating feeling the first time I actually voted on my own without the need for reader assistance.  

From hjones711 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  4 05:50:15 2008
From: hjones711 at gmail.com (hannah jones)
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 23:50:15 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] today is the day
In-Reply-To: <BAY133-DAV6E519BB5487A27F49C225901C0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY133-DAV6E519BB5487A27F49C225901C0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <490FE297.2090207@gmail.com>

I already voted but AMEN!!!!!!!!!!


Pat Gormley wrote:
> It's just after midnight here on the east coast.  So today is the day that we first pray, second seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit and third get to your polling place and vote no matter how long it takes.  For the unitiated, ask for the audio ballot.  All the states have to have at least one voting machine that will accommodate this ballot.  If they don't or people have other problems, please call the nfb at 877-632-1940.  It's incumbent on people who are having problems to call this number since in most cases, we have a right to a secret ballot.  Boy it's an exhilarating feeling the first time I actually voted on my own without the need for reader assistance.  
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/hjones711%40gmail.com
>
>   




From caota at hawaii.rr.com  Tue Nov  4 06:41:35 2008
From: caota at hawaii.rr.com (Charlene Ota)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 20:41:35 -1000
Subject: [Faith-talk] to the Moderator
In-Reply-To: <20081103230739.7A1AA1981D3@relay02.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
References: <225D075DBE2B4B67824F1938004B7577@Buster>
	<20081103230739.7A1AA1981D3@relay02.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
Message-ID: <9682FA3CF33A4099987F62F345557A53@Charlene>

Hi, Penny, I'd like to see the articles so hopefully Tom will okay sending
themout.

Thanks to everyone for sharing, this has been a good discussion. 

-----Original Message-----
From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Penny Golden
Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 1:08 PM
To: Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion
Subject: [Faith-talk] to the Moderator

Say, I have a list of articles that were sent to me.  the links to the
articles are in the email which I received.
The articles are about Election, which has been the topic of late.
But I won't send the list of links without a go-ahead from HQ.
If you don't want the links to be on the list, why, I can always try to send
them to any who might be interested in them.

But remember, I'm a little slow--too much school in my life.

Blessings,
Penny



_______________________________________________
Faith-talk mailing list
Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Faith-talk:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/caota%40hawaii.r
r.com




From cedarwoman1965 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  4 11:06:38 2008
From: cedarwoman1965 at gmail.com (Bonnie A)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 05:06:38 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] today is the day
References: <BAY133-DAV6E519BB5487A27F49C225901C0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <00084CB83684472487848F72660C61D1@Bonnie>

I'm going sometime this morning to vote.  *SMILE*

------
Bonnie Ainsworth
Lincoln, NE USA

There were computers in Biblical times: Eve had an Apple

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Pat Gormley" <kk3f at msn.com>
To: <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 11:19 PM
Subject: [Faith-talk] today is the day


It's just after midnight here on the east coast.  So today is the day that 
we first pray, second seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit and third get to 
your polling place and vote no matter how long it takes.  For the unitiated, 
ask for the audio ballot.  All the states have to have at least one voting 
machine that will accommodate this ballot.  If they don't or people have 
other problems, please call the nfb at 877-632-1940.  It's incumbent on 
people who are having problems to call this number since in most cases, we 
have a right to a secret ballot.  Boy it's an exhilarating feeling the first 
time I actually voted on my own without the need for reader assistance.
_______________________________________________
Faith-talk mailing list
Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
Faith-talk:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/cedarwoman1965%40gmail.com 




From goldpen at frontiernet.net  Tue Nov  4 13:08:10 2008
From: goldpen at frontiernet.net (Penny Golden)
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2008 07:08:10 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] to the Moderator
In-Reply-To: <9682FA3CF33A4099987F62F345557A53@Charlene>
References: <225D075DBE2B4B67824F1938004B7577@Buster>
	<20081103230739.7A1AA1981D3@relay02.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
	<9682FA3CF33A4099987F62F345557A53@Charlene>
Message-ID: <20081104130811.5A0351A0389@relay03.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>

I did send them.  then I started myself to click the links.  some of 
them are pretty short--almost too short.
but perhaps some are longer--sermon length. I don't know; for I have 
not captured them all myself yet.
Blessings,
Penny
p.s. I asked the moderator.  she lives next door; if she had turned 
me down, maybe I could just egg her house or something.
I know I'll catch it for this!
Love you, neighbor.
Penny
At 12:41 AM 11/4/2008, you wrote:
>Hi, Penny, I'd like to see the articles so hopefully Tom will okay sending
>themout.
>
>Thanks to everyone for sharing, this has been a good discussion.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>On Behalf Of Penny Golden
>Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 1:08 PM
>To: Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion
>Subject: [Faith-talk] to the Moderator
>
>Say, I have a list of articles that were sent to me.  the links to the
>articles are in the email which I received.
>The articles are about Election, which has been the topic of late.
>But I won't send the list of links without a go-ahead from HQ.
>If you don't want the links to be on the list, why, I can always try to send
>them to any who might be interested in them.
>
>But remember, I'm a little slow--too much school in my life.
>
>Blessings,
>Penny
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Faith-talk mailing list
>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>Faith-talk:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/caota%40hawaii.r
>r.com
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Faith-talk mailing list
>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>for Faith-talk:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/goldpen%40frontiernet.net





From everettg at successfuladaptations.com  Tue Nov  4 14:25:09 2008
From: everettg at successfuladaptations.com (Everett Gavel)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 09:25:09 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] prayer request for my NFB chapter
References: <000501c933f8$519f9a50$69906f44@windows6996273>
Message-ID: <005301c93e89$2444a550$4a79a463@IBMB7D6F383D44>

Good Morning,

I will pray for your chapter, yes.  But here's a 
suggestion for people of prayer, here:

Let's pray for all chapters.  Unfortunately, yours is 
far from unique or alone in your situation.  I urge 
anyone who will actually pray for such a thing, to pray 
for all NFB chapters, all affiliates, all divisions to 
get many more motivated leaders and active members - 
far beyond what any may already have.

The NFB works to change lives, and does so regularly, 
on a one-to-one basis on up to a national, legislative 
level.  The NFB is a wonderful, life-changing 
organization that empowers people through the simple 
truth of its philosophy--a truth that has been tested 
and shown to be true over and over again through the 
ages. And yet there are still many blind people who are 
just downright lazy or quietly fearful, and seem to 
expect others to do too much for them, rather than 
doing it themselves.  So if any of us pray, I ask you 
to pray for something like God to motivate such people, 
to enthrall, invigorate, energize, and turn into 
zealots even, those who have spent their lives thus far 
being nothing much more than mediocre.  That is what 
would help the NFB as a whole, through the local 
chapters.  Pray for God to inspire us, invigorate us, 
and get us walking the walk, not just talking the talk 
or dreaming the dream.

Every apostle was a man of action.  They did not just 
pray.  They did not listen to a weekly sermon and go 
home and ignore taking action the rest of the week. 
No, they lived their conviction.  They took action, as 
Jesus told them to, and as He specifically tells us to 
in His word.  Please pray, and pray for others to also 
get active, and motivated.  Then, when we're done 
praying, I urge each of us to get out and actually take 
action.  Make some calls to inspire other members. 
Call about that fundraiser you're supposed to be 
working on and helping with.  Go start volunteering at 
your local soup kitchen or homeless shelter.  God works 
greater blessings and seems to work them more 
frequently, when we put ourselves out in the world to 
be used.  So, yes, pray.  Then, take action!  ;-)

And may God bless our prayers and efforts mightily!


All for His Glory,
Everett


----- Original Message ----- 

>I just returned from our California State Convention 
>in Irvine.  It was fun!
> Our chapter President, Dave Faiman spoke at the 
> breakfast and said how we
> were doing fundraising.  However, our chapter is 
> small.  Please pray that we
> could increase our membership of the NORTH SAN DIEGO 
> COUNTY chapter!
>
> Beth
>
> 




From mentink at frontiernet.net  Tue Nov  4 15:25:36 2008
From: mentink at frontiernet.net (Linda Mentink)
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2008 09:25:36 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] List Moderator
Message-ID: <20081104152535.A8575AC9A8@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>

Hi Charlie,

Tom is not the list moderator.  He is the president of the National 
Association of the Blind in Communities of Faith.  I don't know for 
sure whether he is on this list or not.  He was at one time.  I am 
the moderator, and Penny is my neighbor and friend here in 
Nebraska.  Enjoy the articles.

Blessings,

Linda Mentink




From kgarrett1984 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  4 16:02:21 2008
From: kgarrett1984 at gmail.com (Kathy Garrett)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 10:02:21 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Blind chaplins
Message-ID: <ec48b4150811040802j86e29d4w75020fd8ccb438be@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,
I'm wondering if any of you know of any blind chaplins in the
military. Also, do you know if there are any sight requirements for
such a position.

Thanks,
Kathy



From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Tue Nov  4 16:03:30 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 10:03:30 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] More Specifics on Prayer, from Jesus,
	from the Bible, and from Oswald Chambers
References: <000301c930cd$2cc53380$878add45@IBMB7D6F383D44><94B1514E9FD64D7C91DECAE7627F43B7@your4dacd0ea75><004501c9335c$96ec82e0$e69ff44c@IBMB7D6F383D44>
	<F29AC330996B438AB8B50C4E2DC42D69@your4dacd0ea75>
Message-ID: <5F307237C09649A88EFB095E142FC00B@your4dacd0ea75>

This message is five weeks old.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Julie C. Vogt" <jcvogt at pressenter.com>
To: "Everett Gavel" <EverettG at successfuladaptations.com>; "Faith-talk,for 
the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2008 3:57 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] More Specifics on Prayer, from Jesus,from the 
Bible, and from Oswald Chambers


> I'm thinking I've seen this before but they talked about "centering 
> prayer,"
> et. is all.  I could be wrong.  If you're into my quotes you've gone to 
> far
> down.
>
>
>
> "Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human
> soul," American Humorist Mark Twain
>
> "A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their
> contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
>
> "Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>
> "No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push, 
> 1976.
>
> "With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can be
> reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic," the Late 
> Dr.
> Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation of the Blind.
>
> Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Everett Gavel" <everettg at successfuladaptations.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 4:08 AM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] More Specifics on Prayer, from Jesus,from the
> Bible, and from Oswald Chambers
>
>
>> Julie wrote:
>>> This is very good stuff.  I've had some interesting
>>> experiences with a
>>> lower-income poverty level Lutheran church in town
>>> that uses this.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Julie, and all,
>>
>> Uses what, Julie?  There was nothing else in your
>> message that I could find, other than your Sig line
>> stuff.  Did I miss something?  Do you mean they use
>> Oswald Chambers' devotionals?  Or that they use
>> scripture focused on prayer?
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Everett
>> www.everettgavel.com
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.8.2/1735 - Release Date: 10/20/2008
> 2:52 PM
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.6/1766 - Release Date: 11/4/2008 
8:26 AM




From everettg at successfuladaptations.com  Tue Nov  4 17:06:05 2008
From: everettg at successfuladaptations.com (Everett Gavel)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 12:06:05 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Blind chaplins
References: <ec48b4150811040802j86e29d4w75020fd8ccb438be@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000501c93e9f$9ff70ce0$4a79a463@IBMB7D6F383D44>

Hi Kathy, and all,

Not sure about chaplains in the military, but I found 
out something along the same line that I want to share.

Recently I found that there is a guy just south of me 
here in Northeast Ohio, next city over actually, who is 
blind and is a pastor who has successfully planted a 
church.  Personally, that is very inspiring to me.  I 
just wanted to pass that note along.  Not only can it 
be done,but it has already been done and is being done. 
Thank You, Jesus.

I can't wait to talk more with this servant of God! 
Again, sorry I can't help with your Chaplain inquiry, 
and I do hope you get a solid answer.


Strive On!
Everett


----- Original Message ----- 
> Hi all,
> I'm wondering if any of you know of any blind 
> chaplins in the
> military. Also, do you know if there are any sight 
> requirements for
> such a position.
>
>




From caota at hawaii.rr.com  Tue Nov  4 17:28:21 2008
From: caota at hawaii.rr.com (Charlene Ota)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 07:28:21 -1000
Subject: [Faith-talk] List Moderator
In-Reply-To: <20081104152535.A8575AC9A8@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
References: <20081104152535.A8575AC9A8@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
Message-ID: <425F1E9F40A245758E6A44F2303D7268@Charlene>

Hi, Linda,  this isn't Charlie, it's Charlene.  I don't know why, just
assumed Tom was the moderator for the list since he's the president of
Communities of Faith, sorry about that! 

Hope you're doing well these days.  I just had surgery to repair my rotator
cup and will soon start the physical therapy.  Other than that, things are
going wel.

Aloha,
charlene
-----Original Message-----
From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Linda Mentink
Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 5:26 AM
To: faith-talk at nfbnet.org
Subject: [Faith-talk] List Moderator

Hi Charlie,

Tom is not the list moderator.  He is the president of the National
Association of the Blind in Communities of Faith.  I don't know for sure
whether he is on this list or not.  He was at one time.  I am the moderator,
and Penny is my neighbor and friend here in Nebraska.  Enjoy the articles.

Blessings,

Linda Mentink


_______________________________________________
Faith-talk mailing list
Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Faith-talk:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/caota%40hawaii.r
r.com




From caota at hawaii.rr.com  Tue Nov  4 17:31:48 2008
From: caota at hawaii.rr.com (Charlene Ota)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 07:31:48 -1000
Subject: [Faith-talk] to the Moderator
In-Reply-To: <20081104130811.5A0351A0389@relay03.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
References: <225D075DBE2B4B67824F1938004B7577@Buster><20081103230739.7A1AA1981D3@relay02.roch.ny.frontiernet.net><9682FA3CF33A4099987F62F345557A53@Charlene>
	<20081104130811.5A0351A0389@relay03.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
Message-ID: <8DD0DC48DD514EC3B8A07974182AEE76@Charlene>

Hi, Penny, did you send the articles as attachments?  Just curious since you
said you sent them but I didn't receive them.  Maybe it's just an e-mail
glitch.

Thanks!

Charlene 

-----Original Message-----
From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Penny Golden
Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 3:08 AM
To: Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] to the Moderator

I did send them.  then I started myself to click the links.  some of them
are pretty short--almost too short.
but perhaps some are longer--sermon length. I don't know; for I have not
captured them all myself yet.
Blessings,
Penny
p.s. I asked the moderator.  she lives next door; if she had turned me down,
maybe I could just egg her house or something.
I know I'll catch it for this!
Love you, neighbor.
Penny
At 12:41 AM 11/4/2008, you wrote:
>Hi, Penny, I'd like to see the articles so hopefully Tom will okay 
>sending themout.
>
>Thanks to everyone for sharing, this has been a good discussion.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org 
>[mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>On Behalf Of Penny Golden
>Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 1:08 PM
>To: Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion
>Subject: [Faith-talk] to the Moderator
>
>Say, I have a list of articles that were sent to me.  the links to the 
>articles are in the email which I received.
>The articles are about Election, which has been the topic of late.
>But I won't send the list of links without a go-ahead from HQ.
>If you don't want the links to be on the list, why, I can always try to 
>send them to any who might be interested in them.
>
>But remember, I'm a little slow--too much school in my life.
>
>Blessings,
>Penny
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Faith-talk mailing list
>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>Faith-talk:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/caota%40haw
>aii.r
>r.com
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Faith-talk mailing list
>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>Faith-talk:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/goldpen%40f
>rontiernet.net



_______________________________________________
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Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Faith-talk:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/caota%40hawaii.r
r.com




From PWeingartner at ag.org  Tue Nov  4 18:23:33 2008
From: PWeingartner at ag.org (Weingartner, Paul)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 12:23:33 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Blind chaplins
In-Reply-To: <EMEW-kA3Aqjd02216b8a18ecfa18802a6bc5ad4f9aa-ec48b4150811040802j86e29d4w75020fd8ccb438be@mail.gmail.com>
References: <EMEW-kA3Aqjd02216b8a18ecfa18802a6bc5ad4f9aa-ec48b4150811040802j86e29d4w75020fd8ccb438be@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EMEW-kA3COyf607c785f4ad294709592adfb083551e-1C20ACD1E11C974EB176D018E5B46836A9782D@EVS2.gcag.net>

 Military Chaplains have to go though all of the same physical
requirements and training as other soldiers do.  On top of that, they
have to have a recognized ordination and a masters degree.  The
Assemblies of God have many chaplains.  I get to meet a number of them
and some are my friends.  The older ones sometimes have a hard time
getting back in shape after the years of schooling.  Although, with the
shortage of new recruits, they have been relaxing a bit on the
requirements.
Paul


Paul Weingartner
Making the Cross Accessible
Center for the Blind of the Assemblies of God
P 417.831.1964   F 417.862.5120
www.blind.ag.org
www.blindonline.ag.org
 
 
 
 
 

-----Original Message-----
From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
[mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Garrett
Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 10:02 AM
To: faith-talk at nfbnet.org
Subject: [Faith-talk] Blind chaplins

Hi all,
I'm wondering if any of you know of any blind chaplins in the military.
Also, do you know if there are any sight requirements for such a
position.

Thanks,
Kathy

_______________________________________________
Faith-talk mailing list
Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Faith-talk:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/pweingartner
%40ag.org



From mentink at frontiernet.net  Tue Nov  4 18:43:58 2008
From: mentink at frontiernet.net (Linda Mentink)
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2008 12:43:58 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Old Messages
Message-ID: <20081104184358.3689FAC995@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>

Hi Julie,

We can't help it that old messages come in.  I got a bunch today.  I 
don't know why, but stuff happens.  Please remember that the NFBnet 
was changing over to a different system, so maybe some of the 
messages got stuck somewhere.  We all know that they're old, if we 
have our screen readers set to display the date; no need for you to 
tell us that.  Smile.

Blessings,

Linda




From caota at hawaii.rr.com  Tue Nov  4 18:47:54 2008
From: caota at hawaii.rr.com (Charlene Ota)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 08:47:54 -1000
Subject: [Faith-talk] Article links--Election
In-Reply-To: <20081104043151.25EBDCCBB4@relay04.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
References: <20081104043151.25EBDCCBB4@relay04.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
Message-ID: <9EA23BC718294268B044668146B6348E@Charlene>

Oh, Penny, I see your articles now, sorry to bother you again.

Charlene 

-----Original Message-----
From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Penny Golden
Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 6:32 PM
To: Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion
Subject: [Faith-talk] Article links--Election


>Penny Golden wrote:
>>Dear Jeff,
>>Could you recommend to me a basic article on election?  This has come 
>>up on a list for blind people that I am on.
>>I have Pink's book, but I need something less massive--though just as 
>>dependent upon Scripture.
>>Any suggestion would be welcome.
>Hi Pen,
>I have a number of quotes on election--some of which may suit what you 
>are looking for. Just click on whatever seems interesting--
>
>ELECTION & PREDESTINATION
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/6/practical_predestination.htm>Practical
>Predestination
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/07/12/grace.html>All enameled and interwoven 
>with free grace!
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/6/angels_damned.htm>Angels damned, men saved?
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/6/plan.htm>The Plan!
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/6/a_base_heathenish_invention.htm>A base 
>heathenish invention!
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/6/hands_off.htm>Hands off, wicked and profane 
>wretches!
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/6/just_the_facts.htm>Just the facts, please . . .
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/06/05/question.html>The unanswerable question
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/6/eternal.htm>ETERNAL, ABSOLUTE PREDESTINATION!
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/6/subdued_by_sovereign_love1.htm>Subdued
>by sovereign love!
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/2001-1/I%20have%20many%20people.htm>I have 
>many people in this city!
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/06/11/predestination.html>Absolute 
>Predestination
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/2001-1/Our%20Pilot.htm>Our Pilot!
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/6/his_chosen_ones.htm>His chosen ones?
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/6/even_then.htm>Even then!
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/6/why.htm>WHY?
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/6/what.htm>What!
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/04/ravishing.html>How ravishing is the thought!
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/6/softest_pillow_and_the_strongest.htm>The
>softest pillow and the strongest staff?
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/6/they_shall_be_my_people.htm>THEY SHALL BE 
>MY PEOPLE
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/6/Electing%20love.htm>Electing love!
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/07/05/book.html>The book of life
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/6/purpose_of_god.htm>THE PURPOSE OF GOD
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/6/sovereign_electing_grace_of_god.htm>The
>Sovereign Electing Grace of God!
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/6/election.htm>ELECTION
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/6/divine_predestination.htm>Divine 
>Predestination
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/6/who_chose_whom.htm>Who chose whom?
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/6/elected_and_called.htm>Elected and called...
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/6/all_glory_to_the_great_i_am.htm>All
>glory to the great I AM
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/6/Ah%21%20but%20for%20free.htm>Ah! but for 
>free and sovereign grace!
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/6/election_on_a_grand_scale.htm>Election
>on a grand scale!
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/6/election1.htm>Election...
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/6/election_and_predestination.htm>Election
>and Predestination
>
><http://www.gracegems.org/6/be_diligent.htm>Be diligent!



_______________________________________________
Faith-talk mailing list
Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Faith-talk:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/caota%40hawaii.r
r.com




From mentink at frontiernet.net  Tue Nov  4 18:41:33 2008
From: mentink at frontiernet.net (Linda Mentink)
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2008 12:41:33 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] List Moderator
In-Reply-To: <425F1E9F40A245758E6A44F2303D7268@Charlene>
References: <20081104152535.A8575AC9A8@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
	<425F1E9F40A245758E6A44F2303D7268@Charlene>
Message-ID: <20081104184132.F3545ACA1D@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>

Hi Charlene,

I guess I should slow my screen reader down.  I won't call you 
Charlie anymore! Smile.

I'm doing well, and am about to go back to school to teach three classes.

Blessings,

Linda

At 11:28 AM 11/4/2008, you wrote:
>Hi, Linda,  this isn't Charlie, it's Charlene.  I don't know why, just
>assumed Tom was the moderator for the list since he's the president of
>Communities of Faith, sorry about that!
>
>Hope you're doing well these days.  I just had surgery to repair my rotator
>cup and will soon start the physical therapy.  Other than that, things are
>going wel.
>
>Aloha,
>charlene
>-----Original Message-----
>From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>On Behalf Of Linda Mentink
>Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 5:26 AM
>To: faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>Subject: [Faith-talk] List Moderator
>
>Hi Charlie,
>
>Tom is not the list moderator.  He is the president of the National
>Association of the Blind in Communities of Faith.  I don't know for sure
>whether he is on this list or not.  He was at one time.  I am the moderator,
>and Penny is my neighbor and friend here in Nebraska.  Enjoy the articles.
>
>Blessings,
>
>Linda Mentink
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Faith-talk mailing list
>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>Faith-talk:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/caota%40hawaii.r
>r.com
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Faith-talk mailing list
>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>for Faith-talk:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net





From kk3f at msn.com  Tue Nov  4 19:02:11 2008
From: kk3f at msn.com (Pat Gormley)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 14:02:11 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Blind chaplins
References: <ec48b4150811040802j86e29d4w75020fd8ccb438be@mail.gmail.com>
	<000501c93e9f$9ff70ce0$4a79a463@IBMB7D6F383D44>
Message-ID: <BAY133-DAV84F213C65D09F620D1C77901C0@phx.gbl>

Everett I can tell  you that Barbara Pierce has functioned as a chaplain and 
she's in Oberlin Ohio.  I do know of another fellow Reverend Robert Parrish 
in Raleigh North Carolina  who has functioned as both a hospital chaplain 
and a pastor.  Bob Eschbach who now lives in Arizona functioned for years as 
a pastor in the United Methodist Church.  Hopefully this is helpful.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Everett Gavel" <everettg at successfuladaptations.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Blind chaplins


> Hi Kathy, and all,
>
> Not sure about chaplains in the military, but I found out something along 
> the same line that I want to share.
>
> Recently I found that there is a guy just south of me here in Northeast 
> Ohio, next city over actually, who is blind and is a pastor who has 
> successfully planted a church.  Personally, that is very inspiring to me. 
> I just wanted to pass that note along.  Not only can it be done,but it has 
> already been done and is being done. Thank You, Jesus.
>
> I can't wait to talk more with this servant of God! Again, sorry I can't 
> help with your Chaplain inquiry, and I do hope you get a solid answer.
>
>
> Strive On!
> Everett
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> Hi all,
>> I'm wondering if any of you know of any blind chaplins in the
>> military. Also, do you know if there are any sight requirements for
>> such a position.
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/kk3f%40msn.com
> 




From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Tue Nov  4 19:41:31 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 13:41:31 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] prophecy
References: <200810211622.m9LGMUT20586@www.nfbnet.org>
	<BE3962BDEDFF4DF680BB4A2BCB5C9B88@your4dacd0ea75>
Message-ID: <DCED3D02DE9F4942AEE68A541584AD31@your4dacd0ea75>

And this message is ten weeks old.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Julie C. Vogt" <jcvogt at pressenter.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2008 7:03 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] prophecy


>I was just listening to a Gospel song I haven't heard in a while:
>
> "It doesn't cost a thing to smile.
> You don't have to pay to laugh.
> You better thank God for that."
>
> I agree with your e-mail and normally wouldn't have reacted, but to me, a
> lot of Caucasian people operate under the thought pattern that
> African-Americans are inferior to them and therefore subservient.  My 
> Pastor
> in Minneapolis had a saying that she told me once in a while:  "If you're
> White, you're right.  When insults directed at Obama came to me on- and
> off-list, I felt those signals and those injuries, and to me, they were
> directed only at him, but old and new friends, and my wonderful sweetheart
> in Austin, Texas, because that's what much of White America thinks and 
> feels
> and expresses.  There were people who were going to drop 40# bags of human
> waste at Obama when he gave his Democrat Party acceptance speech and James
> Dobson wanted all his followers and listeners to pray for rain when he did
> give his acceptance speech. I have been so enriched by multi-cultural
> churches, plus my now-deceased brother-in-law was Japanese and I have a
> Japanese-American niece.  My step-father, also deceased, was Spanish.  We
> had family Christmases I wouldn't trade the world for.  It was comical
> eating tacos, fried chicken, and sushi for dinner, but now it's a most
> wonderful memory.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "mary wurtzel" <marywurtzel at comcast.net>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 10:43 AM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] prophecy
>
>
>> Dear Friends,
>> I shouldn't claim to know the heart of God, but I can't help
>> feeling that He is saddened by what is going on inthe Church.
>> His people are not just disagreeing about the political issues
>> and candidates of the day, we are hating each other and judging
>> each other for our differing views.  It's fine for us to have
>> deep convictions, I have them, and things are real difficult for
>> me to figure out right now.  Maybe some Christians seem
>> missguided to other Christians, but love does cover a multitude
>> of sins.  May the Spirit guide us all, but may we love one
>> another.
>>
>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>From: "Julie C.  Vogt" <jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>>To: <timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com>,"Faith-talk,for the discussion of
>> faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>Date sent: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 12:42:07 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] prophecy
>>
>>>Looks like there's enough offense on this list to go around.
>>
>>
>>
>>>"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a
>> human
>>>soul," American Humorist Mark Twain
>>
>>>"A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and
>> their
>>>contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19.  KJV
>>
>>>"Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>>
>>>"No one can do it for us but us," Rev.  Jesse Jackson, Operation
>> Push, 1976.
>>
>>>"With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness
>> can be
>>>reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic,"
>> the Late Dr.
>>>Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation of the
>> Blind.
>>
>>>Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: "Frank Lordi" <timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com
>>>To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>><faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 6:02 PM
>>>Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] prophecy
>>
>>
>>
>>>> I take great offense at the below comment.
>>
>>>> To suggest that white churches are predjudiced because they are
>> white,
>>>> seems.....i dont know.......racist?
>>
>>>> Not to mention this is an implied insult to our Christianity?
>>
>>>> --- On Tue, 10/14/08, Julie C.  Vogt <jcvogt at pressenter.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>>> From: Julie C.  Vogt <jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] prophecy
>>>>> To: "Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> Date: Tuesday, October 14, 2008, 1:22 PM
>>>>> Well, here in Duluth, Minnesota, 150 miles Northeast of the
>>>>> Twin Cities, I
>>>>> must say if you're stuck in a predominantly Caucasian
>>>>> church, at best,
>>>>> you're a nice family pet.  However, I've been in
>>>>> music since 1976 and became
>>>>> a Christian in 1972.  Most of my church experience has been
>>>>> in
>>>>> African-American churches, and there aren't enough
>>>>> really good ones here,
>>>>> although the church I play for now is quite good to me.
>>
>>
>>
>>>>> "Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain
>>>>> or freed a human
>>>>> soul," American Humorist Mark Twain
>>
>>>>> "A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong
>>>>> city: and their
>>>>> contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs
>>>>> 18 19.  KJV
>>
>>>>> "Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.,"
>>>>> (unknown)
>>
>>>>> "No one can do it for us but us," Rev.  Jesse
>>>>> Jackson, Operation Push, 1976.
>>
>>>>> "With proper training, development, and opportunity,
>>>>> blindness can be
>>>>> reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or
>>>>> characteristic," the Late Dr.
>>>>> Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation of
>>>>> the Blind.
>>
>>>>> Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "mary wurtzel"
>>>>> <marywurtzel at comcast.net
>>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and
>>>>> religion"
>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 11:38 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] prophecy
>>
>>
>>>>>> Hi Everyone,
>>>>>> I am going to overstep here, also.  Inthe NFB we have
>>>>> always said
>>>>>> that we deal with blindness, end of story.  That is
>>>>> because of
>>>>>> what we are seeing here.  When it comes to cthtain
>>>>> issues,
>>>>>> Federationists are diverse in their views.
>>>>>> I would like to propose that this list have a
>>>>> discussion about
>>>>>> how, we, as people who are blind, participate in our
>>>>> places of
>>>>>> faith.  Maybe this was already done, but I didn't
>>>>> hear it.
>>>>>> I just want to say that Fred and I are very well
>>>>> accepted.  I
>>>>>> can't think of a time when we were cautioned not
>>>>> to try anything
>>>>>> that we wanted to take on because we are blind.
>>>>>> Mary Wurtzel
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>> account info for
>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>
>>>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk/jcvogt%40pressen
>> ter.com
>>
>>
>>
>>>>>
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>> ---------------
>>
>>
>>
>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>>> Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1724 - Release
>>>>> Date: 10/14/2008
>>>>> 2:02 AM
>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>> account info for Faith-talk:
>>>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk/timber_wolf899%4
>> 0yahoo.com
>>
>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>> Do You Yahoo!?
>>>> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>>>> http://mail.yahoo.com
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>> info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk/jcvogt%40pressen
>> ter.com
>>
>>
>>
>>>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>> ---------------
>>
>>
>>
>>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.8.1/1732 - Release Date:
>> 10/18/2008
>>>6:01 PM
>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Faith-talk mailing list
>>>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk
>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> for Faith-talk:
>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk/marywurtzel%40co
>> mcast.net
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.2/1739 - Release Date: 10/22/2008
> 7:23 AM
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.6/1766 - Release Date: 11/4/2008 
8:26 AM




From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Tue Nov  4 19:42:43 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 13:42:43 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Blind chaplins
References: <ec48b4150811040802j86e29d4w75020fd8ccb438be@mail.gmail.com><000501c93e9f$9ff70ce0$4a79a463@IBMB7D6F383D44>
	<BAY133-DAV84F213C65D09F620D1C77901C0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <3CCC3A8BFC3C44BEB04B0FCC0F812AD2@your4dacd0ea75>

I've known several African-American blind pastors in my life-time.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Pat Gormley" <kk3f at msn.com>
To: "Everett Gavel" <EverettG at successfuladaptations.com>; "Faith-talk,for 
the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 1:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Blind chaplins


> Everett I can tell  you that Barbara Pierce has functioned as a chaplain 
> and
> she's in Oberlin Ohio.  I do know of another fellow Reverend Robert 
> Parrish
> in Raleigh North Carolina  who has functioned as both a hospital chaplain
> and a pastor.  Bob Eschbach who now lives in Arizona functioned for years 
> as
> a pastor in the United Methodist Church.  Hopefully this is helpful.
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Everett Gavel" <everettg at successfuladaptations.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 12:06 PM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Blind chaplins
>
>
>> Hi Kathy, and all,
>>
>> Not sure about chaplains in the military, but I found out something along
>> the same line that I want to share.
>>
>> Recently I found that there is a guy just south of me here in Northeast
>> Ohio, next city over actually, who is blind and is a pastor who has
>> successfully planted a church.  Personally, that is very inspiring to me.
>> I just wanted to pass that note along.  Not only can it be done,but it 
>> has
>> already been done and is being done. Thank You, Jesus.
>>
>> I can't wait to talk more with this servant of God! Again, sorry I can't
>> help with your Chaplain inquiry, and I do hope you get a solid answer.
>>
>>
>> Strive On!
>> Everett
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> Hi all,
>>> I'm wondering if any of you know of any blind chaplins in the
>>> military. Also, do you know if there are any sight requirements for
>>> such a position.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/kk3f%40msn.com
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.6/1766 - Release Date: 11/4/2008 
8:26 AM




From beth.wright at mindspring.com  Tue Nov  4 19:58:23 2008
From: beth.wright at mindspring.com (Beth Wright)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 14:58:23 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] prophecy
References: <200810211622.m9LGMUT20586@www.nfbnet.org>
	<BE3962BDEDFF4DF680BB4A2BCB5C9B88@your4dacd0ea75>
Message-ID: <1726644AEA7942528E35E1475398E14A@beth6e848e39a5>

Hi, list.

This is certainly an interesting discussion, although also a little painful. 
My church is predominantly white, but one of our ministers is black, along 
with a few of our members.  If handled well, I think there's no question 
that diversity can be enriching to everyone involved, but it takes hard 
work, sensitivity, and mutual respect.  Just my two cents' worth.

Beth
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Julie C. Vogt" <jcvogt at pressenter.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2008 8:03 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] prophecy


>I was just listening to a Gospel song I haven't heard in a while:
>
> "It doesn't cost a thing to smile.
> You don't have to pay to laugh.
> You better thank God for that."
>
> I agree with your e-mail and normally wouldn't have reacted, but to me, a
> lot of Caucasian people operate under the thought pattern that
> African-Americans are inferior to them and therefore subservient.  My 
> Pastor
> in Minneapolis had a saying that she told me once in a while:  "If you're
> White, you're right.  When insults directed at Obama came to me on- and
> off-list, I felt those signals and those injuries, and to me, they were
> directed only at him, but old and new friends, and my wonderful sweetheart
> in Austin, Texas, because that's what much of White America thinks and 
> feels
> and expresses.  There were people who were going to drop 40# bags of human
> waste at Obama when he gave his Democrat Party acceptance speech and James
> Dobson wanted all his followers and listeners to pray for rain when he did
> give his acceptance speech. I have been so enriched by multi-cultural
> churches, plus my now-deceased brother-in-law was Japanese and I have a
> Japanese-American niece.  My step-father, also deceased, was Spanish.  We
> had family Christmases I wouldn't trade the world for.  It was comical
> eating tacos, fried chicken, and sushi for dinner, but now it's a most
> wonderful memory.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "mary wurtzel" <marywurtzel at comcast.net>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 10:43 AM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] prophecy
>
>
>> Dear Friends,
>> I shouldn't claim to know the heart of God, but I can't help
>> feeling that He is saddened by what is going on inthe Church.
>> His people are not just disagreeing about the political issues
>> and candidates of the day, we are hating each other and judging
>> each other for our differing views.  It's fine for us to have
>> deep convictions, I have them, and things are real difficult for
>> me to figure out right now.  Maybe some Christians seem
>> missguided to other Christians, but love does cover a multitude
>> of sins.  May the Spirit guide us all, but may we love one
>> another.
>>
>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>From: "Julie C.  Vogt" <jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>>To: <timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com>,"Faith-talk,for the discussion of
>> faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>Date sent: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 12:42:07 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] prophecy
>>
>>>Looks like there's enough offense on this list to go around.
>>
>>
>>
>>>"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a
>> human
>>>soul," American Humorist Mark Twain
>>
>>>"A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and
>> their
>>>contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19.  KJV
>>
>>>"Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>>
>>>"No one can do it for us but us," Rev.  Jesse Jackson, Operation
>> Push, 1976.
>>
>>>"With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness
>> can be
>>>reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic,"
>> the Late Dr.
>>>Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation of the
>> Blind.
>>
>>>Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: "Frank Lordi" <timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com
>>>To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>><faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 6:02 PM
>>>Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] prophecy
>>
>>
>>
>>>> I take great offense at the below comment.
>>
>>>> To suggest that white churches are predjudiced because they are
>> white,
>>>> seems.....i dont know.......racist?
>>
>>>> Not to mention this is an implied insult to our Christianity?
>>
>>>> --- On Tue, 10/14/08, Julie C.  Vogt <jcvogt at pressenter.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>>> From: Julie C.  Vogt <jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] prophecy
>>>>> To: "Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> Date: Tuesday, October 14, 2008, 1:22 PM
>>>>> Well, here in Duluth, Minnesota, 150 miles Northeast of the
>>>>> Twin Cities, I
>>>>> must say if you're stuck in a predominantly Caucasian
>>>>> church, at best,
>>>>> you're a nice family pet.  However, I've been in
>>>>> music since 1976 and became
>>>>> a Christian in 1972.  Most of my church experience has been
>>>>> in
>>>>> African-American churches, and there aren't enough
>>>>> really good ones here,
>>>>> although the church I play for now is quite good to me.
>>
>>
>>
>>>>> "Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain
>>>>> or freed a human
>>>>> soul," American Humorist Mark Twain
>>
>>>>> "A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong
>>>>> city: and their
>>>>> contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs
>>>>> 18 19.  KJV
>>
>>>>> "Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.,"
>>>>> (unknown)
>>
>>>>> "No one can do it for us but us," Rev.  Jesse
>>>>> Jackson, Operation Push, 1976.
>>
>>>>> "With proper training, development, and opportunity,
>>>>> blindness can be
>>>>> reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or
>>>>> characteristic," the Late Dr.
>>>>> Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation of
>>>>> the Blind.
>>
>>>>> Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "mary wurtzel"
>>>>> <marywurtzel at comcast.net
>>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and
>>>>> religion"
>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 11:38 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] prophecy
>>
>>
>>>>>> Hi Everyone,
>>>>>> I am going to overstep here, also.  Inthe NFB we have
>>>>> always said
>>>>>> that we deal with blindness, end of story.  That is
>>>>> because of
>>>>>> what we are seeing here.  When it comes to cthtain
>>>>> issues,
>>>>>> Federationists are diverse in their views.
>>>>>> I would like to propose that this list have a
>>>>> discussion about
>>>>>> how, we, as people who are blind, participate in our
>>>>> places of
>>>>>> faith.  Maybe this was already done, but I didn't
>>>>> hear it.
>>>>>> I just want to say that Fred and I are very well
>>>>> accepted.  I
>>>>>> can't think of a time when we were cautioned not
>>>>> to try anything
>>>>>> that we wanted to take on because we are blind.
>>>>>> Mary Wurtzel
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>> account info for
>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>
>>>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk/jcvogt%40pressen
>> ter.com
>>
>>
>>
>>>>>
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>> ---------------
>>
>>
>>
>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>>> Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1724 - Release
>>>>> Date: 10/14/2008
>>>>> 2:02 AM
>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>> account info for Faith-talk:
>>>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk/timber_wolf899%4
>> 0yahoo.com
>>
>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>> Do You Yahoo!?
>>>> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>>>> http://mail.yahoo.com
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>> info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk/jcvogt%40pressen
>> ter.com
>>
>>
>>
>>>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>> ---------------
>>
>>
>>
>>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.8.1/1732 - Release Date:
>> 10/18/2008
>>>6:01 PM
>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Faith-talk mailing list
>>>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk
>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> for Faith-talk:
>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk/marywurtzel%40co
>> mcast.net
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.2/1739 - Release Date: 10/22/2008
> 7:23 AM
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk/beth.wright%40mindspring.com 




From everettg at successfuladaptations.com  Tue Nov  4 20:18:04 2008
From: everettg at successfuladaptations.com (Everett Gavel)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 15:18:04 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Blind chaplins
References: <ec48b4150811040802j86e29d4w75020fd8ccb438be@mail.gmail.com><000501c93e9f$9ff70ce0$4a79a463@IBMB7D6F383D44>
	<BAY133-DAV84F213C65D09F620D1C77901C0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <005301c93eba$71f9b840$4a79a463@IBMB7D6F383D44>

Hi Pat, and all,

To me, it's helpful--definitely.  HOpefully to Kathy as
well.  Thanks, Pat.

Barbara Pierce has been our state affiliate president
of the NFB of Ohio for something like 24 years.  This
past weekend at our state convention, she retired.  JW
Smith is our new state president.  So, yes, I'm
familiar with the wonderful, glorious Mrs. Pierce.
(smile)

Interestingly enough, unless I'm mixing up memories, I
believe Bob Eschbach was the NFB of Ohio state
affiliate president before Barbara Pierce, as well.
;-)

Thanks again for the leads and inspiration, Pat.


Strive On!
Everett
www.everettgavel.com


----- Original Message ----- 
 Everett I can tell  you that Barbara Pierce has
functioned as a chaplain and
 she's in Oberlin Ohio.  I do know of another fellow
Reverend Robert Parrish
 in Raleigh North Carolina  who has functioned as both
a hospital chaplain
 and a pastor.  Bob Eschbach who now lives in Arizona
functioned for years as
 a pastor in the United Methodist Church.  Hopefully
this is helpful.

----- Original Message ----- 
 Hi Kathy, and all,
 Not sure about chaplains in the military, but I found
out something along
 the same line that I want to share.

 Recently I found that there is a guy just south of me
here in Northeast
 Ohio, next city over actually, who is blind and is a
pastor who has
 successfully planted a church.  Personally, that is
very inspiring to me.
 I just wanted to pass that note along.  Not only can
it be done,but it has
 already been done and is being done. Thank You, Jesus.

 I can't wait to talk more with this servant of God!
Again, sorry I can't
 help with your Chaplain inquiry, and I do hope you get
a solid answer.


 Strive On!
 Everett


 ----- Original Message ----- 
 Hi all,
 I'm wondering if any of you know of any blind chaplins
in the
 military. Also, do you know if there are any sight
requirements for
 such a position.










From kgarrett1984 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  4 21:36:13 2008
From: kgarrett1984 at gmail.com (Kathy Garrett)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 15:36:13 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Blind chaplins
In-Reply-To: <005301c93eba$71f9b840$4a79a463@IBMB7D6F383D44>
References: <ec48b4150811040802j86e29d4w75020fd8ccb438be@mail.gmail.com>
	<000501c93e9f$9ff70ce0$4a79a463@IBMB7D6F383D44>
	<BAY133-DAV84F213C65D09F620D1C77901C0@phx.gbl>
	<005301c93eba$71f9b840$4a79a463@IBMB7D6F383D44>
Message-ID: <ec48b4150811041336m108498fcn17317a7cc54ab7b1@mail.gmail.com>

Everett, can you possibly give me Barbara's contact info. I'd appreciate it.

Kathy

On 11/4/08, Everett Gavel <everettg at successfuladaptations.com> wrote:
> Hi Pat, and all,
>
> To me, it's helpful--definitely.  HOpefully to Kathy as
> well.  Thanks, Pat.
>
> Barbara Pierce has been our state affiliate president
> of the NFB of Ohio for something like 24 years.  This
> past weekend at our state convention, she retired.  JW
> Smith is our new state president.  So, yes, I'm
> familiar with the wonderful, glorious Mrs. Pierce.
> (smile)
>
> Interestingly enough, unless I'm mixing up memories, I
> believe Bob Eschbach was the NFB of Ohio state
> affiliate president before Barbara Pierce, as well.
> ;-)
>
> Thanks again for the leads and inspiration, Pat.
>
>
> Strive On!
> Everett
> www.everettgavel.com
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>  Everett I can tell  you that Barbara Pierce has
> functioned as a chaplain and
>  she's in Oberlin Ohio.  I do know of another fellow
> Reverend Robert Parrish
>  in Raleigh North Carolina  who has functioned as both
> a hospital chaplain
>  and a pastor.  Bob Eschbach who now lives in Arizona
> functioned for years as
>  a pastor in the United Methodist Church.  Hopefully
> this is helpful.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>  Hi Kathy, and all,
>  Not sure about chaplains in the military, but I found
> out something along
>  the same line that I want to share.
>
>  Recently I found that there is a guy just south of me
> here in Northeast
>  Ohio, next city over actually, who is blind and is a
> pastor who has
>  successfully planted a church.  Personally, that is
> very inspiring to me.
>  I just wanted to pass that note along.  Not only can
> it be done,but it has
>  already been done and is being done. Thank You, Jesus.
>
>  I can't wait to talk more with this servant of God!
> Again, sorry I can't
>  help with your Chaplain inquiry, and I do hope you get
> a solid answer.
>
>
>  Strive On!
>  Everett
>
>
>  ----- Original Message -----
>  Hi all,
>  I'm wondering if any of you know of any blind chaplins
> in the
>  military. Also, do you know if there are any sight
> requirements for
>  such a position.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/kgarrett1984%40gmail.com
>



From kk3f at msn.com  Tue Nov  4 23:23:27 2008
From: kk3f at msn.com (Pat Gormley)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 18:23:27 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Blind chaplins
References: <ec48b4150811040802j86e29d4w75020fd8ccb438be@mail.gmail.com><000501c93e9f$9ff70ce0$4a79a463@IBMB7D6F383D44><BAY133-DAV84F213C65D09F620D1C77901C0@phx.gbl><005301c93eba$71f9b840$4a79a463@IBMB7D6F383D44>
	<ec48b4150811041336m108498fcn17317a7cc54ab7b1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY133-DAV79B00318682786FA2A428901C0@phx.gbl>

Barb's email address is bpierce at nfb.org.  I believe a lot of seminaries do 
have trainees for the pastorate to function as hospital chaplains as part of 
their training towards their ministerial degrees.  I know that Bob Parrish 
was a hospital chaplain for a number of years until a pastoral opportunity 
opened up but I've lost touch with him.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kathy Garrett" <kgarrett1984 at gmail.com>
To: "Everett Gavel" <EverettG at successfuladaptations.com>; "Faith-talk,for 
the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 4:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Blind chaplins


> Everett, can you possibly give me Barbara's contact info. I'd appreciate 
> it.
>
> Kathy
>
> On 11/4/08, Everett Gavel <everettg at successfuladaptations.com> wrote:
>> Hi Pat, and all,
>>
>> To me, it's helpful--definitely.  HOpefully to Kathy as
>> well.  Thanks, Pat.
>>
>> Barbara Pierce has been our state affiliate president
>> of the NFB of Ohio for something like 24 years.  This
>> past weekend at our state convention, she retired.  JW
>> Smith is our new state president.  So, yes, I'm
>> familiar with the wonderful, glorious Mrs. Pierce.
>> (smile)
>>
>> Interestingly enough, unless I'm mixing up memories, I
>> believe Bob Eschbach was the NFB of Ohio state
>> affiliate president before Barbara Pierce, as well.
>> ;-)
>>
>> Thanks again for the leads and inspiration, Pat.
>>
>>
>> Strive On!
>> Everett
>> www.everettgavel.com
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>  Everett I can tell  you that Barbara Pierce has
>> functioned as a chaplain and
>>  she's in Oberlin Ohio.  I do know of another fellow
>> Reverend Robert Parrish
>>  in Raleigh North Carolina  who has functioned as both
>> a hospital chaplain
>>  and a pastor.  Bob Eschbach who now lives in Arizona
>> functioned for years as
>>  a pastor in the United Methodist Church.  Hopefully
>> this is helpful.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>  Hi Kathy, and all,
>>  Not sure about chaplains in the military, but I found
>> out something along
>>  the same line that I want to share.
>>
>>  Recently I found that there is a guy just south of me
>> here in Northeast
>>  Ohio, next city over actually, who is blind and is a
>> pastor who has
>>  successfully planted a church.  Personally, that is
>> very inspiring to me.
>>  I just wanted to pass that note along.  Not only can
>> it be done,but it has
>>  already been done and is being done. Thank You, Jesus.
>>
>>  I can't wait to talk more with this servant of God!
>> Again, sorry I can't
>>  help with your Chaplain inquiry, and I do hope you get
>> a solid answer.
>>
>>
>>  Strive On!
>>  Everett
>>
>>
>>  ----- Original Message -----
>>  Hi all,
>>  I'm wondering if any of you know of any blind chaplins
>> in the
>>  military. Also, do you know if there are any sight
>> requirements for
>>  such a position.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/kgarrett1984%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/kk3f%40msn.com
> 




From rjs059 at peoplepc.com  Wed Nov  5 01:31:35 2008
From: rjs059 at peoplepc.com (rjs059 at peoplepc.com)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 20:31:35 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Blind chaplins
References: <ec48b4150811040802j86e29d4w75020fd8ccb438be@mail.gmail.com><000501c93e9f$9ff70ce0$4a79a463@IBMB7D6F383D44>
	<BAY133-DAV84F213C65D09F620D1C77901C0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <019901c93ee6$3f163530$5866eb04@rjige047kjawst>

I was told by my vok rehab councler, being a Minister was a nonrealstic 
goal.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Pat Gormley" <kk3f at msn.com>
To: "Everett Gavel" <EverettG at successfuladaptations.com>; "Faith-talk,for 
the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 2:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Blind chaplins


> Everett I can tell  you that Barbara Pierce has functioned as a chaplain 
> and
> she's in Oberlin Ohio.  I do know of another fellow Reverend Robert 
> Parrish
> in Raleigh North Carolina  who has functioned as both a hospital chaplain
> and a pastor.  Bob Eschbach who now lives in Arizona functioned for years 
> as
> a pastor in the United Methodist Church.  Hopefully this is helpful.
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Everett Gavel" <everettg at successfuladaptations.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 12:06 PM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Blind chaplins
>
>
>> Hi Kathy, and all,
>>
>> Not sure about chaplains in the military, but I found out something along
>> the same line that I want to share.
>>
>> Recently I found that there is a guy just south of me here in Northeast
>> Ohio, next city over actually, who is blind and is a pastor who has
>> successfully planted a church.  Personally, that is very inspiring to me.
>> I just wanted to pass that note along.  Not only can it be done,but it 
>> has
>> already been done and is being done. Thank You, Jesus.
>>
>> I can't wait to talk more with this servant of God! Again, sorry I can't
>> help with your Chaplain inquiry, and I do hope you get a solid answer.
>>
>>
>> Strive On!
>> Everett
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> Hi all,
>>> I'm wondering if any of you know of any blind chaplins in the
>>> military. Also, do you know if there are any sight requirements for
>>> such a position.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/kk3f%40msn.com
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/rjs059%40peoplepc.com


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Internal Virus Database is out of date.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.8.5/1757 - Release Date: 10/30/2008 
2:35 PM




From iamantonio at cox.net  Wed Nov  5 06:14:50 2008
From: iamantonio at cox.net (Antonio Guimaraes)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 01:14:50 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Scripture Regarding Predestination
References: <490D03E9.9000405@gmail.com><CBB67CF41D7E4E9F809C30553FB03E97@homeb5fa>
	<001b01c93df9$5adffeb0$f421a463@IBMB7D6F383D44>
Message-ID: <CA2CDF1898724D9984BF0A1294EB4EB2@homeb5fa>

Hi Everett,

Thank you for taking the time to share this answer with me.

I come to understand the answer much better, though not yet fully. That will 
come with reading the chapters recommended, and reading the pastor's message 
carefully.

Sincerely,

Antonio Guimaraes

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Everett Gavel" <everettg at successfuladaptations.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 4:15 PM
Subject: [Faith-talk] Scripture Regarding Predestination


> Hello Antonio, and all,
>
> My pastor can share the scripture and some specifics on Predestination 
> much more clearly than I am able to right now.  So I asked him to help me 
> respond to your questions and statements on this topic, Antonio.  His 
> reply is below.  I hope it can help anyone reading this, with any 
> questions you may have on this Biblical topic. All I ask of each of you 
> who read it, and who may be Christ-followers, is to please pray first. 
> Ask God to lead you with His wisdom and His discernment on this topic.
>
>
> God Bless Your Efforts--and Your Path,
> Everett
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> Antonio,
>
> I would encourage you to read John 6 (whole chapter), Romans 9 (whole 
> chapter), and Ephesians 1 (whole chapter).  We are not just taking out a 
> few verses, but we are putting them in the context in which we find them, 
> which, in the case for predestination (election), it is explain in whole 
> chapters.  I would start there.
>
> Secondly, you said, "Then, what is it worth the effort, if said effort may 
> be fruitless?"  On this their are two important things: 1)  Your effort 
> will never get you into heaven unless you are completely perfect!  You are 
> not, and neither am I, and only Jesus is!  This is works based 
> righteousness, and it is a sin (Eph. 2:8-10; Isa.64:6).  In works based 
> righteousness, rather than gift righteousness (2 Cor. 5:21, correct view), 
> the question becomes, 'How good is good enough for God to love me?'  This 
> is the wrong question to be asking.  How good is good enough to satisfy a 
> holy angry God?  Answer: Perfection!  And unless you are perfect, you need 
> grace, and that my friend is where the doctrine of predestination is such 
> a beautiful thing.  Grace (gift righteousness) says, "God loves me, 
> therefore I can become good."  Not, "If I become good by trying really 
> hard, God will love me."  2) Predestination does not work like you think. 
> Again, going back to your quote, all your effort is useless, and it does 
> not benefit a perfect God, but it is not in vain.  Listen carefully.  If 
> you love Jesus, then you are predestined as one of his children.  If you 
> ask the question, "Well, what if I love him and he doesn't love me," then 
> you are of the elect.  God would never keep anyone from salvation that 
> desired it!  But, the desire was not yours, it was by God's divine grace 
> that you do desire him.  That is what makes election so beautiful! You 
> don't deserve it, but he gives it to you, not because of you or anything 
> you've done, but because of his amazing grace!  When properly understood, 
> this will drop you to your face in humility, because you understand for 
> the first time that God doesn't love you for the things you do, but that 
> he loves you despite the things you do--which, in turn, will make you stop 
> doing the stupid things you do.  Understand?
>
> I have believed how you do, my friend, and I know the lonely and endless 
> road of sin you are on, just trying to maintain your salvation until the 
> end.  If you love Jesus, no one can pluck you from his hand, not even you 
> (Jn. 10:28).
>
> Third and finally, God does love the world, but that passage is speaking 
> of those who are elect from the world, just has people from every nation, 
> tongue, and tribe will be saved (Rev. 5).  Remember, if you want to be 
> saved, you are elect; if you do not want to, you are not elect.  Simple.
>
> If you have any questions either email Everett or myself at: 
> jeremy at themovementchurch.info
>
>
> In His Grip,
>
> Pastor Jeremy
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> Hi,
>
> So, acording to the doctrine of predestination, God has
> already decided who
> will follow him? I may or may not be destined to ascend
> to heaven? Then,
> what is it worth the effort, if said effort may be
> fruitless?
>
> I always believed, and learned that God died for ALL
> people, and that Jesus
> suffered and died for all sins, notjust some selected
> group.
>
> this doctrin is either misinterpreted, or it is wrong.
>
> God knows all things, so he knows all of my choices,
> past, present, and
> future. He knows how many times I'll attend church
> durring my lifetime, and
> more importantly, he knows whether I will choose a
> christ-centered life that
> will leed to salvation. But he didn't choose to save
> me, he gave me the
> choice. He just happens to know what my choice will
> ultimately be. Isn't
> this how it goes?
>
> Antonio Guimaraes
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/iamantonio%40cox.net
>
>
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.549 / Virus Database: 270.8.6/1766 - Release 
> Date: 11/4/2008 8:26 AM
> 




From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Wed Nov  5 12:17:10 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 06:17:10 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Blind chaplins
References: <ec48b4150811040802j86e29d4w75020fd8ccb438be@mail.gmail.com><000501c93e9f$9ff70ce0$4a79a463@IBMB7D6F383D44><BAY133-DAV84F213C65D09F620D1C77901C0@phx.gbl>
	<019901c93ee6$3f163530$5866eb04@rjige047kjawst>
Message-ID: <EACA8DE1D4A04683AE0ED68D94B687F5@your4dacd0ea75>

Your counselor sounds like the counselor I had in the '70's, the one who 
said it would be better to work for 50 cents an hour at the Minneapolis 
Society for the Blind than to be in music ministry, despite the fact that I 
had three record companies in the area looking at my work.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <rjs059 at peoplepc.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 7:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Blind chaplins


>I was told by my vok rehab councler, being a Minister was a nonrealstic
> goal.
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Pat Gormley" <kk3f at msn.com>
> To: "Everett Gavel" <EverettG at successfuladaptations.com>; "Faith-talk,for
> the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 2:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Blind chaplins
>
>
>> Everett I can tell  you that Barbara Pierce has functioned as a chaplain
>> and
>> she's in Oberlin Ohio.  I do know of another fellow Reverend Robert
>> Parrish
>> in Raleigh North Carolina  who has functioned as both a hospital chaplain
>> and a pastor.  Bob Eschbach who now lives in Arizona functioned for years
>> as
>> a pastor in the United Methodist Church.  Hopefully this is helpful.
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Everett Gavel" <everettg at successfuladaptations.com>
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 12:06 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Blind chaplins
>>
>>
>>> Hi Kathy, and all,
>>>
>>> Not sure about chaplains in the military, but I found out something 
>>> along
>>> the same line that I want to share.
>>>
>>> Recently I found that there is a guy just south of me here in Northeast
>>> Ohio, next city over actually, who is blind and is a pastor who has
>>> successfully planted a church.  Personally, that is very inspiring to 
>>> me.
>>> I just wanted to pass that note along.  Not only can it be done,but it
>>> has
>>> already been done and is being done. Thank You, Jesus.
>>>
>>> I can't wait to talk more with this servant of God! Again, sorry I can't
>>> help with your Chaplain inquiry, and I do hope you get a solid answer.
>>>
>>>
>>> Strive On!
>>> Everett
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> Hi all,
>>>> I'm wondering if any of you know of any blind chaplins in the
>>>> military. Also, do you know if there are any sight requirements for
>>>> such a position.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/kk3f%40msn.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/rjs059%40peoplepc.com
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> Internal Virus Database is out of date.
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.8.5/1757 - Release Date: 10/30/2008
> 2:35 PM
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.6/1769 - Release Date: 11/5/2008 
7:17 AM




From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Wed Nov  5 15:11:36 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 10:11:36 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Blind chaplins
In-Reply-To: <EACA8DE1D4A04683AE0ED68D94B687F5@your4dacd0ea75>
References: <ec48b4150811040802j86e29d4w75020fd8ccb438be@mail.gmail.com>
	<000501c93e9f$9ff70ce0$4a79a463@IBMB7D6F383D44>
	<BAY133-DAV84F213C65D09F620D1C77901C0@phx.gbl>
	<019901c93ee6$3f163530$5866eb04@rjige047kjawst>
	<EACA8DE1D4A04683AE0ED68D94B687F5@your4dacd0ea75>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811050711l6fdb358ci1bc68218f64abed9@mail.gmail.com>

It seems that a lot of counselors are recommending that blind people
work for fifty cents an hour, not that it happens, at a place like the
Achievement Center over in Brevard County, and that's not real work.
Beth

On 11/5/08, Julie C. Vogt <jcvogt at pressenter.com> wrote:
> Your counselor sounds like the counselor I had in the '70's, the one who
> said it would be better to work for 50 cents an hour at the Minneapolis
> Society for the Blind than to be in music ministry, despite the fact that I
> had three record companies in the area looking at my work.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <rjs059 at peoplepc.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 7:31 PM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Blind chaplins
>
>
>>I was told by my vok rehab councler, being a Minister was a nonrealstic
>> goal.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Pat Gormley" <kk3f at msn.com>
>> To: "Everett Gavel" <EverettG at successfuladaptations.com>; "Faith-talk,for
>> the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 2:02 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Blind chaplins
>>
>>
>>> Everett I can tell  you that Barbara Pierce has functioned as a chaplain
>>> and
>>> she's in Oberlin Ohio.  I do know of another fellow Reverend Robert
>>> Parrish
>>> in Raleigh North Carolina  who has functioned as both a hospital chaplain
>>> and a pastor.  Bob Eschbach who now lives in Arizona functioned for years
>>> as
>>> a pastor in the United Methodist Church.  Hopefully this is helpful.
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Everett Gavel" <everettg at successfuladaptations.com>
>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 12:06 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Blind chaplins
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi Kathy, and all,
>>>>
>>>> Not sure about chaplains in the military, but I found out something
>>>> along
>>>> the same line that I want to share.
>>>>
>>>> Recently I found that there is a guy just south of me here in Northeast
>>>> Ohio, next city over actually, who is blind and is a pastor who has
>>>> successfully planted a church.  Personally, that is very inspiring to
>>>> me.
>>>> I just wanted to pass that note along.  Not only can it be done,but it
>>>> has
>>>> already been done and is being done. Thank You, Jesus.
>>>>
>>>> I can't wait to talk more with this servant of God! Again, sorry I can't
>>>> help with your Chaplain inquiry, and I do hope you get a solid answer.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Strive On!
>>>> Everett
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>> I'm wondering if any of you know of any blind chaplins in the
>>>>> military. Also, do you know if there are any sight requirements for
>>>>> such a position.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/kk3f%40msn.com
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/rjs059%40peoplepc.com
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> Internal Virus Database is out of date.
>> Checked by AVG.
>> Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.8.5/1757 - Release Date: 10/30/2008
>> 2:35 PM
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.6/1769 - Release Date: 11/5/2008
> 7:17 AM
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
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>



From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Wed Nov  5 19:43:47 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 13:43:47 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Blind chaplins
References: <ec48b4150811040802j86e29d4w75020fd8ccb438be@mail.gmail.com><000501c93e9f$9ff70ce0$4a79a463@IBMB7D6F383D44><BAY133-DAV84F213C65D09F620D1C77901C0@phx.gbl><019901c93ee6$3f163530$5866eb04@rjige047kjawst><EACA8DE1D4A04683AE0ED68D94B687F5@your4dacd0ea75>
	<4383d01d0811050711l6fdb358ci1bc68218f64abed9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <580979C4431642AC902D218648E3E037@your4dacd0ea75>

We need a big break-through in vocational counseling for the blind for sure. 
I can't
even picture blind people going in and saying they're going to be better 
than what's there.  Nine times out of ten they become what's there.  Then 
when it comes time to choose bettering the lot of all blind people and 
buttering the bread they want to eat, you know the blind are going to lose. 
Something really needs to be done about those people.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 9:11 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Blind chaplins


> It seems that a lot of counselors are recommending that blind people
> work for fifty cents an hour, not that it happens, at a place like the
> Achievement Center over in Brevard County, and that's not real work.
> Beth
>
> On 11/5/08, Julie C. Vogt <jcvogt at pressenter.com> wrote:
>> Your counselor sounds like the counselor I had in the '70's, the one who
>> said it would be better to work for 50 cents an hour at the Minneapolis
>> Society for the Blind than to be in music ministry, despite the fact that 
>> I
>> had three record companies in the area looking at my work.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: <rjs059 at peoplepc.com>
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 7:31 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Blind chaplins
>>
>>
>>>I was told by my vok rehab councler, being a Minister was a nonrealstic
>>> goal.
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Pat Gormley" <kk3f at msn.com>
>>> To: "Everett Gavel" <EverettG at successfuladaptations.com>; 
>>> "Faith-talk,for
>>> the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 2:02 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Blind chaplins
>>>
>>>
>>>> Everett I can tell  you that Barbara Pierce has functioned as a 
>>>> chaplain
>>>> and
>>>> she's in Oberlin Ohio.  I do know of another fellow Reverend Robert
>>>> Parrish
>>>> in Raleigh North Carolina  who has functioned as both a hospital 
>>>> chaplain
>>>> and a pastor.  Bob Eschbach who now lives in Arizona functioned for 
>>>> years
>>>> as
>>>> a pastor in the United Methodist Church.  Hopefully this is helpful.
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Everett Gavel" <everettg at successfuladaptations.com>
>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 12:06 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Blind chaplins
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Kathy, and all,
>>>>>
>>>>> Not sure about chaplains in the military, but I found out something
>>>>> along
>>>>> the same line that I want to share.
>>>>>
>>>>> Recently I found that there is a guy just south of me here in 
>>>>> Northeast
>>>>> Ohio, next city over actually, who is blind and is a pastor who has
>>>>> successfully planted a church.  Personally, that is very inspiring to
>>>>> me.
>>>>> I just wanted to pass that note along.  Not only can it be done,but it
>>>>> has
>>>>> already been done and is being done. Thank You, Jesus.
>>>>>
>>>>> I can't wait to talk more with this servant of God! Again, sorry I 
>>>>> can't
>>>>> help with your Chaplain inquiry, and I do hope you get a solid answer.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Strive On!
>>>>> Everett
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>> I'm wondering if any of you know of any blind chaplins in the
>>>>>> military. Also, do you know if there are any sight requirements for
>>>>>> such a position.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/kk3f%40msn.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/rjs059%40peoplepc.com
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Internal Virus Database is out of date.
>>> Checked by AVG.
>>> Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.8.5/1757 - Release Date: 
>>> 10/30/2008
>>> 2:35 PM
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.6/1769 - Release Date: 11/5/2008
>> 7:17 AM
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.6/1769 - Release Date: 11/5/2008 
7:17 AM




From lynnwhite51 at sbcglobal.net  Wed Nov  5 22:58:56 2008
From: lynnwhite51 at sbcglobal.net (BMW)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 16:58:56 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] the call
In-Reply-To: <BLU146-W5E7E4F585FB6220B25DCE8B1D0@phx.gbl>
References: <490D03E9.9000405@gmail.com><BLU146-W2089CF7DE35C475F209C0F8B220@phx.gbl>
	<62AD3CB015D940E496116080D1ACA938@lynnwhitePC>
	<BLU146-W5E7E4F585FB6220B25DCE8B1D0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <8D0BA2987E824EECBC27D1ABEF75DAC6@lynnwhitePC>

No except to stay true to what God tells us in His word and through his 
spirit.

All of us who follow Christ is God's elect.

Jesus talks about the elect in Matthew 24, I believe.  He talks about the 
deceivers in that, were it possible, the elect would be deceived.

Hope this helps.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Albert Yoo" <albertyoo1 at hotmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 8:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] the call



Bmw, is there rules the chosen people have to follow t know the lord as the 
elect? Albert


> From: lynnwhite51 at sbcglobal.net
> To: faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 18:23:34 -0600
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] the call
>
> Hi,
>
> The elect are those who have been chosen by the Lord to follow him.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Albert Yoo"
> To: "Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion"
>
> Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 5:57 PM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] the call
>
>
>
> ANother question I had for the list. I was confused in today's service. 
> What
> does predestination mean? What is the elect? What is the doctrine of
> predestination?There are so many parts to the predestination. Albert
>
>
>> Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 20:35:37 -0500
>> From: hjones711 at gmail.com
>> To: faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> Subject: [Faith-talk] the call
>>
>> is anyone else watching the call san diago? it is good!
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/albertyoo1%40hotmail.com
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> When your life is on the go?take your life with you.
> http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/115298558/direct/01/
> _______________________________________________
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> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
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> Faith-talk:
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>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
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From lynnwhite51 at sbcglobal.net  Wed Nov  5 22:59:39 2008
From: lynnwhite51 at sbcglobal.net (BMW)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 16:59:39 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] the call
In-Reply-To: <908FE9783F5D44A9A4E153DFF9C3A475@nickf1758c2c9d>
References: <490D03E9.9000405@gmail.com><BLU146-W2089CF7DE35C475F209C0F8B220@phx.gbl>
	<908FE9783F5D44A9A4E153DFF9C3A475@nickf1758c2c9d>
Message-ID: <5F9A72500D18443E805918A8020ABC6D@lynnwhitePC>

Very well said.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <trising at sbcglobal.net>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 7:56 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] the call


> Predestination is the doctrine that states that God chooses those who will 
> be saved. Unless we have the Holy spirit calling us, we will not have the 
> faith to choose him. Of course he knows whom he calls. If he calls us, he 
> also justifies us. A good definition of justification is that he puts us 
> in right standing with him, through Christ's death on the cross. It is 
> just as if I have never sinned. Since he chose us and called us and 
> justified us, he also sanctifies us, or makes us more like Him each day. 
> Those he chose, called, justified, and sanctified, he will also glorify. 
> He will bring us to heaven to live with him. Our glorification will not 
> happen until we get to heaven. Read Romans 8. I have just given you a very 
> loose paraphrase of it. The most amazing  part is Romans 8 35 to 39. He 
> talks about loving us so much that nothing in the world, or out of it, 
> can separate us from His love. Hope this is clearer than mud!
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/lynnwhite51%40sbcglobal.net 




From PWeingartner at ag.org  Wed Nov  5 23:12:59 2008
From: PWeingartner at ag.org (Weingartner, Paul)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 17:12:59 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Blind chaplins
In-Reply-To: <EMEW-kA45ur5580c9ceb691fb467dfcb183caf59eb2-019901c93ee6$3f163530$5866eb04@rjige047kjawst>
References: <ec48b4150811040802j86e29d4w75020fd8ccb438be@mail.gmail.com><000501c93e9f$9ff70ce0$4a79a463@IBMB7D6F383D44><BAY133-DAV84F213C65D09F620D1C77901C0@phx.gbl>
	<EMEW-kA45ur5580c9ceb691fb467dfcb183caf59eb2-019901c93ee6$3f163530$5866eb04@rjige047kjawst>
Message-ID: <EMEW-kA4HG85678d778fc7f51cdf706318acca3c0c2-1C20ACD1E11C974EB176D018E5B46836A9783B@EVS2.gcag.net>

 Lots of things are unrealistic, walking on water, parting the red sea
and rising from the dead!
If you are looking for ministry as a career, I would advise against it.
If you are looking to fulfill a calling, God will open doors.

John 15:16  You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to
go and bear fruit -- fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you
whatever you ask in my name.

1 Thessalonians 5:24  The one who calls you is faithful and he will do
it.

I am in fulltime ministry against advise and circumstances.

Rev Paul Weingartner

Paul Weingartner
Making the Cross Accessible
Center for the Blind of the Assemblies of God
P 417.831.1964   F 417.862.5120
www.blind.ag.org
www.blindonline.ag.org
 
 
 
 
 

-----Original Message-----
From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
[mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of rjs059 at peoplepc.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 7:32 PM
To: Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Blind chaplins

I was told by my vok rehab councler, being a Minister was a nonrealstic
goal.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pat Gormley" <kk3f at msn.com>
To: "Everett Gavel" <EverettG at successfuladaptations.com>;
"Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 2:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Blind chaplins


> Everett I can tell  you that Barbara Pierce has functioned as a 
> chaplain and she's in Oberlin Ohio.  I do know of another fellow 
> Reverend Robert Parrish in Raleigh North Carolina  who has functioned 
> as both a hospital chaplain and a pastor.  Bob Eschbach who now lives 
> in Arizona functioned for years as a pastor in the United Methodist 
> Church.  Hopefully this is helpful.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Everett Gavel" <everettg at successfuladaptations.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 12:06 PM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Blind chaplins
>
>
>> Hi Kathy, and all,
>>
>> Not sure about chaplains in the military, but I found out something 
>> along the same line that I want to share.
>>
>> Recently I found that there is a guy just south of me here in 
>> Northeast Ohio, next city over actually, who is blind and is a pastor

>> who has successfully planted a church.  Personally, that is very
inspiring to me.
>> I just wanted to pass that note along.  Not only can it be done,but 
>> it has already been done and is being done. Thank You, Jesus.
>>
>> I can't wait to talk more with this servant of God! Again, sorry I 
>> can't help with your Chaplain inquiry, and I do hope you get a solid
answer.
>>
>>
>> Strive On!
>> Everett
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> Hi all,
>>> I'm wondering if any of you know of any blind chaplins in the 
>>> military. Also, do you know if there are any sight requirements for 
>>> such a position.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/kk3f%40ms
>> n.com
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/rjs059%40p
> eoplepc.com


------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------



Internal Virus Database is out of date.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.8.5/1757 - Release Date:
10/30/2008
2:35 PM


_______________________________________________
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%40ag.org



From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Thu Nov  6 00:34:33 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 19:34:33 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] prayers for a friend
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811051634i3ec439cbx20b7ca65f904757d@mail.gmail.com>

Hi, everyone.

I would like to request some prayers of course as always.  There's
this friend of mine, who shall remain nameless for his own sake, who
has been being such a hypocrite to me lately.  He claims to be a Jew
for Christ, whatever that is, compassionate about the state of Israel,
but he is very angry at me and doesn't seem to be very forgiving.  I
pray that he has some sort of convictions, of course.  I may have
mentioned him last time, but this time, I invited him cordially to a
homecoming parade, and this time, he must've been fed up.  I met this
man in person, and now he's removed me from FaceBook, and now he's
probably going to turn around and hide.  Please, pray for this guy as
I think he needs to learn the true meaning of my love of him and how
to forgive.  I look in his eyes with my mind's eye and I see a heart
that needs a lot of love and some sort of guidance, not neesarily
someone bound for Hell.
Beth



From goldpen at frontiernet.net  Thu Nov  6 03:44:43 2008
From: goldpen at frontiernet.net (Penny Golden)
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2008 21:44:43 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Boy friends, et cetera
In-Reply-To: <EMEW-kA4HG85678d778fc7f51cdf706318acca3c0c2-1C20ACD1E11C97
	4EB176D018E5B46836A9783B@EVS2.gcag.net>
References: <ec48b4150811040802j86e29d4w75020fd8ccb438be@mail.gmail.com>
	<000501c93e9f$9ff70ce0$4a79a463@IBMB7D6F383D44>
	<BAY133-DAV84F213C65D09F620D1C77901C0@phx.gbl>
	<EMEW-kA45ur5580c9ceb691fb467dfcb183caf59eb2-019901c93ee6$3f163530$5866eb04@rjige047kjawst>
	<EMEW-kA4HG85678d778fc7f51cdf706318acca3c0c2-1C20ACD1E11C974EB176D018E5B46836A9783B@EVS2.gcag.net>
Message-ID: <20081106034443.637C4CCBCB@relay04.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>

Dear Readers,

I read the note asking for prayer for a man who is supposedly a 
hypocrite and was avoiding the writer of the note.
I am afraid I felt a little sorry for the guy she was writing 
about.  Is it possible that, somehow, she is pursuing this individual 
in a way that is not comfortable for him?
He doesn't perhaps want to come out and say: could you back off--but 
that may be the way he feels.  Is something embarrassing him about 
the relationship?  Is he feeling somehow entrapped?

I'm sorry to write on such a delicate subject in this manner.  We 
don't have the entire story--and, probably, it is a good thing we do not.

Maybe the boy wants some space.  maybe he has plans to visit the 
parade with someone else.  Maybe, for some reason, he is not 
comfortable with the writer.

My Aunt, a wise old pagan, told me something that I have never forgotten:

She said, "Penny, you must not be so possessive."

I was twelve years old at the time; a friend of mine had promised to 
come over and I was really fretted about it.  Yes, it was a broken 
promise and it was not right of my friend to make a promise and then break it.

But perhaps my wise old Aunt was correct: I was being too possessive 
of my friend.  She might have wanted to pursue something that she was 
uncomfortable for me to be a part of.

I remember how Tom Sawyer would go down-town but he didn't want 
Huckleberry to accompany him on such jaunts.  Huck and Tom were good 
friends--but somehow, his raggedy friend Huck was a bit of a drawback 
in some of Tom's plans and pursuits.

I do have a wonderful group of friends whom, I think, feel 
comfortable with me.  This subject might well be one that needs a 
little airing.

If we force our friends to play with us, at some point, they'll go 
elsewhere, where we can't follow--just to get some breathing room.

Forgive me if I've stepped on too many corns.

On another subject--I've seen so much anger and unkindness in some 
posts that I have just refused to read any further posts from people 
who have hit me that way.  I never thought I would get to the place 
where I would avoid reading correspondence to a list just based upon 
the writer's name--for I'd been so disappointed in what I had read in 
the recent past.

Maybe that's how my letter hits some of our readers.  If so, I'm sorry.

As blind people, we are pretty sensitive to having been discriminated 
against in various situations--only because of the 
blindness.  Sometimes it is true discrimination and it's 
despicable.  Sometimes we have made ourselves so unlovable or so 
nasty or so vociferous that we have made others tremendously 
uncomfortable or embarrassed to be around us.

Thanks for hearing me out.  I don't have a lot of answers--and I 
haven't presented my thoughts too  rationally.  But perhaps someone 
understands something of what I've tried to say.

Kindest regards,
Penny

P.S. I do hope this subject is not beyond the compass of this list.




From dandrews at visi.com  Thu Nov  6 08:07:41 2008
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2008 02:07:41 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] More Specifics on Prayer, from Jesus,
 from  the Bible, and from Oswald Chambers
In-Reply-To: <5F307237C09649A88EFB095E142FC00B@your4dacd0ea75>
References: <000301c930cd$2cc53380$878add45@IBMB7D6F383D44>
	<94B1514E9FD64D7C91DECAE7627F43B7@your4dacd0ea75>
	<004501c9335c$96ec82e0$e69ff44c@IBMB7D6F383D44>
	<F29AC330996B438AB8B50C4E2DC42D69@your4dacd0ea75>
	<5F307237C09649A88EFB095E142FC00B@your4dacd0ea75>
Message-ID: <auto-000073167872@mailfront2.g2host.com>

Actually, it is only 2 weeks, but there was a glitch in the 
transition from old to new servers.

Dave

At 10:03 AM 11/4/2008, you wrote:
>This message is five weeks old.
>
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "Julie C. Vogt" <jcvogt at pressenter.com>
>To: "Everett Gavel" <EverettG at successfuladaptations.com>; 
>"Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2008 3:57 AM
>Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] More Specifics on Prayer, from Jesus,from 
>the Bible, and from Oswald Chambers
>
>
>>I'm thinking I've seen this before but they talked about "centering prayer,"
>>et. is all.  I could be wrong.  If you're into my quotes you've gone to far
>>down.
>>
>>
>>
>>"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human
>>soul," American Humorist Mark Twain
>>
>>"A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their
>>contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
>>
>>"Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>>
>>"No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push, 1976.
>>
>>"With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can be
>>reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic," the Late Dr.
>>Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation of the Blind.
>>
>>Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Everett Gavel" 
>><everettg at successfuladaptations.com>
>>To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>><faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 4:08 AM
>>Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] More Specifics on Prayer, from Jesus,from the
>>Bible, and from Oswald Chambers
>>
>>
>>>Julie wrote:
>>>>This is very good stuff.  I've had some interesting
>>>>experiences with a
>>>>lower-income poverty level Lutheran church in town
>>>>that uses this.
>>>
>>>
>>>Hi Julie, and all,
>>>
>>>Uses what, Julie?  There was nothing else in your
>>>message that I could find, other than your Sig line
>>>stuff.  Did I miss something?  Do you mean they use
>>>Oswald Chambers' devotionals?  Or that they use
>>>scripture focused on prayer?
>>>
>>>
>>>Thanks,
>>>Everett
>>>www.everettgavel.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Faith-talk mailing list
>>>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk
>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>Faith-talk:
>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>>
>>
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.8.2/1735 - Release Date: 10/20/2008
>>2:52 PM
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Faith-talk mailing list
>>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>for Faith-talk:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.6/1766 - Release Date: 
>11/4/2008 8:26 AM
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Faith-talk mailing list
>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>for Faith-talk:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi.com
>
>
>
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.6/1766 - Release Date: 
>11/4/2008 8:26 AM




From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Thu Nov  6 09:57:30 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 04:57:30 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Boy friends, et cetera
In-Reply-To: <20081106034443.637C4CCBCB@relay04.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
References: <ec48b4150811040802j86e29d4w75020fd8ccb438be@mail.gmail.com>
	<000501c93e9f$9ff70ce0$4a79a463@IBMB7D6F383D44>
	<BAY133-DAV84F213C65D09F620D1C77901C0@phx.gbl>
	<EMEW-kA45ur5580c9ceb691fb467dfcb183caf59eb2-019901c93ee6$3f163530$5866eb04@rjige047kjawst>
	<EMEW-kA4HG85678d778fc7f51cdf706318acca3c0c2-1C20ACD1E11C974EB176D018E5B46836A9783B@EVS2.gcag.net>
	<20081106034443.637C4CCBCB@relay04.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811060157o7bdf4653x65bb869b92a19b27@mail.gmail.com>

To answer the questions you have, Penny, the man is not comfortable
with me because he feels I am weird and messed-up.  He has false
assumptions about me because of psychological issues I'm dealing with.
 This is why he needs to forgive me for what I do.  I wish I could
come out and say, "Forgive me, Governor."  But I can't.  Sorry to
mention his name.  Anyway, he probably needs space, but I think he is
a hypocrite because he caims to love Christ, but feels that one blind
woman is one too many for him.  I wish I could tell him a lot about
what's going on.  Also, I could use his help with something my
ex-boyfriend is going through.  He just wrote me asking for help with
this fiend of his who has cancer, and I wish I could talk to this
other guy about it.  There's so much I want to talk to him about, but
he's being such a jerk.  Space can't be the solution.  I think, for a
blind person, he is discriiating against blind women, and his
African-American roots could say so otherwise.  Nothing about
African-Americans, though.  His Judaic Christianity and his making me
undesirable for him is basically the big thing that bothers me.
Christ taught us to love one another, and even those we may not be
comfortable with no matter what other people say.  I'm sure if Jesus
were here today, he'd probably have hit both of us in the head (grin).
 But I know I've been too possessive, but I feel that whatever
happens, the man involved should at least try to frgive me and if he
wants to talk about it, he can.  It was a simple friendly gesture I
made, and he just went bananas.  Sorry if this bothers anyone.
Beth

On 11/5/08, Penny Golden <goldpen at frontiernet.net> wrote:
> Dear Readers,
>
> I read the note asking for prayer for a man who is supposedly a
> hypocrite and was avoiding the writer of the note.
> I am afraid I felt a little sorry for the guy she was writing
> about.  Is it possible that, somehow, she is pursuing this individual
> in a way that is not comfortable for him?
> He doesn't perhaps want to come out and say: could you back off--but
> that may be the way he feels.  Is something embarrassing him about
> the relationship?  Is he feeling somehow entrapped?
>
> I'm sorry to write on such a delicate subject in this manner.  We
> don't have the entire story--and, probably, it is a good thing we do not.
>
> Maybe the boy wants some space.  maybe he has plans to visit the
> parade with someone else.  Maybe, for some reason, he is not
> comfortable with the writer.
>
> My Aunt, a wise old pagan, told me something that I have never forgotten:
>
> She said, "Penny, you must not be so possessive."
>
> I was twelve years old at the time; a friend of mine had promised to
> come over and I was really fretted about it.  Yes, it was a broken
> promise and it was not right of my friend to make a promise and then break
> it.
>
> But perhaps my wise old Aunt was correct: I was being too possessive
> of my friend.  She might have wanted to pursue something that she was
> uncomfortable for me to be a part of.
>
> I remember how Tom Sawyer would go down-town but he didn't want
> Huckleberry to accompany him on such jaunts.  Huck and Tom were good
> friends--but somehow, his raggedy friend Huck was a bit of a drawback
> in some of Tom's plans and pursuits.
>
> I do have a wonderful group of friends whom, I think, feel
> comfortable with me.  This subject might well be one that needs a
> little airing.
>
> If we force our friends to play with us, at some point, they'll go
> elsewhere, where we can't follow--just to get some breathing room.
>
> Forgive me if I've stepped on too many corns.
>
> On another subject--I've seen so much anger and unkindness in some
> posts that I have just refused to read any further posts from people
> who have hit me that way.  I never thought I would get to the place
> where I would avoid reading correspondence to a list just based upon
> the writer's name--for I'd been so disappointed in what I had read in
> the recent past.
>
> Maybe that's how my letter hits some of our readers.  If so, I'm sorry.
>
> As blind people, we are pretty sensitive to having been discriminated
> against in various situations--only because of the
> blindness.  Sometimes it is true discrimination and it's
> despicable.  Sometimes we have made ourselves so unlovable or so
> nasty or so vociferous that we have made others tremendously
> uncomfortable or embarrassed to be around us.
>
> Thanks for hearing me out.  I don't have a lot of answers--and I
> haven't presented my thoughts too  rationally.  But perhaps someone
> understands something of what I've tried to say.
>
> Kindest regards,
> Penny
>
> P.S. I do hope this subject is not beyond the compass of this list.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>



From goldpen at frontiernet.net  Thu Nov  6 13:08:18 2008
From: goldpen at frontiernet.net (Penny Golden)
Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2008 07:08:18 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Boy friends, et cetera
In-Reply-To: <4383d01d0811060157o7bdf4653x65bb869b92a19b27@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <ec48b4150811040802j86e29d4w75020fd8ccb438be@mail.gmail.com>
	<000501c93e9f$9ff70ce0$4a79a463@IBMB7D6F383D44>
	<BAY133-DAV84F213C65D09F620D1C77901C0@phx.gbl>
	<EMEW-kA45ur5580c9ceb691fb467dfcb183caf59eb2-019901c93ee6$3f163530$5866eb04@rjige047kjawst>
	<EMEW-kA4HG85678d778fc7f51cdf706318acca3c0c2-1C20ACD1E11C974EB176D018E5B46836A9783B@EVS2.gcag.net>
	<20081106034443.637C4CCBCB@relay04.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
	<4383d01d0811060157o7bdf4653x65bb869b92a19b27@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081106130817.45E521A00F6@relay03.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>


I am sorry if something I wrote may have been a trouble to you, Beth.
I still say that we cannot expect others to act in even the right 
ways sometimes.  I am afraid that people do sometimes feel threatened 
and want to back off.

I will not say any more.  I didn't want to make a long discussion of 
this particular case, but I did think that maybe I ought to say my piece.

Hugs,
Penny





From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Thu Nov  6 13:17:45 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 07:17:45 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] prayers for a friend
References: <4383d01d0811051634i3ec439cbx20b7ca65f904757d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FDF33C3338204312BC325E5F7627B17F@your4dacd0ea75>

Will pray.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 6:34 PM
Subject: [Faith-talk] prayers for a friend


> Hi, everyone.
>
> I would like to request some prayers of course as always.  There's
> this friend of mine, who shall remain nameless for his own sake, who
> has been being such a hypocrite to me lately.  He claims to be a Jew
> for Christ, whatever that is, compassionate about the state of Israel,
> but he is very angry at me and doesn't seem to be very forgiving.  I
> pray that he has some sort of convictions, of course.  I may have
> mentioned him last time, but this time, I invited him cordially to a
> homecoming parade, and this time, he must've been fed up.  I met this
> man in person, and now he's removed me from FaceBook, and now he's
> probably going to turn around and hide.  Please, pray for this guy as
> I think he needs to learn the true meaning of my love of him and how
> to forgive.  I look in his eyes with my mind's eye and I see a heart
> that needs a lot of love and some sort of guidance, not neesarily
> someone bound for Hell.
> Beth
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1770 - Release Date: 11/5/2008 
5:36 PM




From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Thu Nov  6 13:23:33 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 07:23:33 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Boy friends, et cetera
References: <ec48b4150811040802j86e29d4w75020fd8ccb438be@mail.gmail.com><000501c93e9f$9ff70ce0$4a79a463@IBMB7D6F383D44><BAY133-DAV84F213C65D09F620D1C77901C0@phx.gbl><EMEW-kA45ur5580c9ceb691fb467dfcb183caf59eb2-019901c93ee6$3f163530$5866eb04@rjige047kjawst><EMEW-kA4HG85678d778fc7f51cdf706318acca3c0c2-1C20ACD1E11C974EB176D018E5B46836A9783B@EVS2.gcag.net>
	<20081106034443.637C4CCBCB@relay04.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
Message-ID: <B939A1E896D54B128F89065D6D91F4CD@your4dacd0ea75>

I know that when a certain moderator continues to write me off-list and 
think she's the Pope or the only one with God's counsel, I shall just write 
her privately:  Blah, blah, blah for a few lines.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Penny Golden" <goldpen at frontiernet.net>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 9:44 PM
Subject: [Faith-talk] Boy friends, et cetera


> Dear Readers,
>
> I read the note asking for prayer for a man who is supposedly a
> hypocrite and was avoiding the writer of the note.
> I am afraid I felt a little sorry for the guy she was writing
> about.  Is it possible that, somehow, she is pursuing this individual
> in a way that is not comfortable for him?
> He doesn't perhaps want to come out and say: could you back off--but
> that may be the way he feels.  Is something embarrassing him about
> the relationship?  Is he feeling somehow entrapped?
>
> I'm sorry to write on such a delicate subject in this manner.  We
> don't have the entire story--and, probably, it is a good thing we do not.
>
> Maybe the boy wants some space.  maybe he has plans to visit the
> parade with someone else.  Maybe, for some reason, he is not
> comfortable with the writer.
>
> My Aunt, a wise old pagan, told me something that I have never forgotten:
>
> She said, "Penny, you must not be so possessive."
>
> I was twelve years old at the time; a friend of mine had promised to
> come over and I was really fretted about it.  Yes, it was a broken
> promise and it was not right of my friend to make a promise and then break 
> it.
>
> But perhaps my wise old Aunt was correct: I was being too possessive
> of my friend.  She might have wanted to pursue something that she was
> uncomfortable for me to be a part of.
>
> I remember how Tom Sawyer would go down-town but he didn't want
> Huckleberry to accompany him on such jaunts.  Huck and Tom were good
> friends--but somehow, his raggedy friend Huck was a bit of a drawback
> in some of Tom's plans and pursuits.
>
> I do have a wonderful group of friends whom, I think, feel
> comfortable with me.  This subject might well be one that needs a
> little airing.
>
> If we force our friends to play with us, at some point, they'll go
> elsewhere, where we can't follow--just to get some breathing room.
>
> Forgive me if I've stepped on too many corns.
>
> On another subject--I've seen so much anger and unkindness in some
> posts that I have just refused to read any further posts from people
> who have hit me that way.  I never thought I would get to the place
> where I would avoid reading correspondence to a list just based upon
> the writer's name--for I'd been so disappointed in what I had read in
> the recent past.
>
> Maybe that's how my letter hits some of our readers.  If so, I'm sorry.
>
> As blind people, we are pretty sensitive to having been discriminated
> against in various situations--only because of the
> blindness.  Sometimes it is true discrimination and it's
> despicable.  Sometimes we have made ourselves so unlovable or so
> nasty or so vociferous that we have made others tremendously
> uncomfortable or embarrassed to be around us.
>
> Thanks for hearing me out.  I don't have a lot of answers--and I
> haven't presented my thoughts too  rationally.  But perhaps someone
> understands something of what I've tried to say.
>
> Kindest regards,
> Penny
>
> P.S. I do hope this subject is not beyond the compass of this list.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1770 - Release Date: 11/5/2008 
5:36 PM




From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Thu Nov  6 13:44:47 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 08:44:47 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] special message and prayers for help
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811060544k515fbc14k8c0e162a3414f6ad@mail.gmail.com>

Hi everyone.
THis is Beth.
I would like to tell you guys that there is something pretty urgent
that one of my friends told me about.  A woman in Arizona is
requesting money for cancer treatments.  Andrea Mustin is a Native
American on a reservation in Arizona, and she is in dire need of money
for cancer treatments.  She lost all her health benefits when she lost
her job.  For more information go to this link.
http://www.geocities.com/amustain1/
Beth



From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Thu Nov  6 14:07:53 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 08:07:53 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] special message and prayers for help
References: <4383d01d0811060544k515fbc14k8c0e162a3414f6ad@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D5E21C7952BB4557884F40EE12C0454A@your4dacd0ea75>

Will pray.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>; "National Association of Blind Students mailing 
list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>; "NFB of Florida Listserv" <nfbf-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 7:44 AM
Subject: [Faith-talk] special message and prayers for help


> Hi everyone.
> THis is Beth.
> I would like to tell you guys that there is something pretty urgent
> that one of my friends told me about.  A woman in Arizona is
> requesting money for cancer treatments.  Andrea Mustin is a Native
> American on a reservation in Arizona, and she is in dire need of money
> for cancer treatments.  She lost all her health benefits when she lost
> her job.  For more information go to this link.
> http://www.geocities.com/amustain1/
> Beth
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1771 - Release Date: 11/6/2008 
7:58 AM




From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Thu Nov  6 15:58:30 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 09:58:30 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Here's a Possibility
Message-ID: <83F3120A61F047839F03A237ED27F7A0@your4dacd0ea75>

People do not agree but because they do not agree doesn't make them totally wrong.

As I understand it, the Communities of Faith was supposed to be a forum for people of all religions.  But what happened when that lady first was on this list who confessed to being a Catholic lesbian?  Everybody that thought they are James Dobson's secret identity ran her off this list and not in charge of it.

How do you think Jesus is going to settle people's hearts when we get to heaven "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye?

The voters have spoken.  In this country it is time for a change.  When the African-American Gospel stations play, "A Change is Gonna Come" by Sam Cook like it was the latest Gospel song, that ought to tell people something.

A lot of e-mail I got was down-right phobic racism and there's no two ways of looking at that.  Obama thanked McCane for a good fight and for being gracious in his acceptance speech.

But here on this list, I find everybody has their own select Bible reading and that is it.  You know where I was reading this morning?  2 Kings 6 where there was a famine in the land of Israel.  The Prophet of God said basically that within the next 24 hours, there would be low prices on badly needed food, just to paraphrase.  It made me thinkof Rev. where it says very plainly that "The fearful and unbelieving God will judge."  Perfect love casts out all fear also is another Scripture.

Some one in the crowd of Israelites didn't believe the prophecy and
the Prophet of God that the unbeliever would see it with his own eyes, but would not be a part of it.  That man was trampled to death.

Phobia isn't going to get you anywhere these next four years, and neither is being a sore loser.  People who were leaders in the Democrat party that had their phone conversations illegally listened in on in the past four years at least learned that much.

Maybe now we will have some dialog that isn't just 100% "my way or the highway Bible thumping.  Zero tolerance didn't win the election for you because your lack of love and a few other things were showing.  Learn from it.


"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul," American Humorist Mark Twain

"An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind

"A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV

"Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)

"No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push, 1976.

"With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic," the Late Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation of the Blind.

Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com 





From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Thu Nov  6 16:27:28 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 11:27:28 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Boy friends, et cetera
In-Reply-To: <20081106130817.45E521A00F6@relay03.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
References: <ec48b4150811040802j86e29d4w75020fd8ccb438be@mail.gmail.com>
	<000501c93e9f$9ff70ce0$4a79a463@IBMB7D6F383D44>
	<BAY133-DAV84F213C65D09F620D1C77901C0@phx.gbl>
	<EMEW-kA45ur5580c9ceb691fb467dfcb183caf59eb2-019901c93ee6$3f163530$5866eb04@rjige047kjawst>
	<EMEW-kA4HG85678d778fc7f51cdf706318acca3c0c2-1C20ACD1E11C974EB176D018E5B46836A9783B@EVS2.gcag.net>
	<20081106034443.637C4CCBCB@relay04.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
	<4383d01d0811060157o7bdf4653x65bb869b92a19b27@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081106130817.45E521A00F6@relay03.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811060827i353a1dedy346d39de0e69f6cb@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks, Penny.  I appreciate your considerations.
Beth

On 11/6/08, Penny Golden <goldpen at frontiernet.net> wrote:
>
> I am sorry if something I wrote may have been a trouble to you, Beth.
> I still say that we cannot expect others to act in even the right
> ways sometimes.  I am afraid that people do sometimes feel threatened
> and want to back off.
>
> I will not say any more.  I didn't want to make a long discussion of
> this particular case, but I did think that maybe I ought to say my piece.
>
> Hugs,
> Penny
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>



From wesley.burden at verizon.net  Thu Nov  6 17:50:12 2008
From: wesley.burden at verizon.net (WESLEY BURDEN)
Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2008 12:50:12 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] FW: [BlindMen4Christ] A Brighter Tomorrow
Message-ID: <F2F3CC2AD51C40D188D4993376CB2E37@Buster>

 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindmen4christ-bounces at morales-family.lljfm.net
[mailto:blindmen4christ-bounces at morales-family.lljfm.net] On Behalf Of Stu
(by way of Curtis Delzer <curtis at calweb.com>)
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 12:38 PM
To: Blind men for Christ
Subject: [BlindMen4Christ] A Brighter Tomorrow

Isn't Jesus Enough?

Why isn't Jesus enough for us? Oh, in our religious speak we say that Jesus
is enough, but you scratch beneath our surface, you look at our culture in
churchland, you see that many of us don't really mean it -- or at least most
of us haven't been brave enough to try it.

Aren't you being a little tough on us, Stu? Maybe, but I don't think so. And
remember, if I'm pointing a finger at "us," then I've also got three fingers
pointing back at me! So let's be honest with ourselves.
If Jesus were enough for us then why do we ...

   * Crave and spend to get what's new?
     Why do we have to have the latest and newest gizmo, vehicle, house,
     or whatever it is that we have to have? Why would so many of us be
     in debt up to our eyeballs so we could live in the right house and
     neighborhood, drive a nice car, have the latest fashions, wear the
     right shoes, and show off the latest i-Whatever?

   * Worry about missing out on something if we make a choice for Jesus?
     Why fear that we might lose something if we don't run with the wild
     crowd so we can popular? Why get sucked back into taking another
     drag or two on the weed because we can't hang around some folks if
     we don't? Why do we drop our sexual ethics for fear of missing out
     on an experience if we don't? Why baptize our worries in a longneck
     bottle if Jesus is enough?

   * Get so concerned about folks not doing church our way?
     Why judge someone because they don't live up to our pile of rules
     and traditions that we've encrusted around the simple message of
     Jesus? Or, why fear we might be missing something and simply add in
     what some other group or religion is doing? Why not focus on Jesus
     and put everything to the "Jesus test"* in what we do rather than
     worry ourselves with comparative religious shopping?

Jesus faced a mountain of religious stuff: stuff that was piled up,
defended, studied, extrapolated, debated, and paraded by the religious
establishment of His day. He came walked up this mountain of religious stuff
and conquered it by being raised up on a cross. He claimed that He was the
fulfillment of all the good things anticipated and promised in God's Law,
Prophets, and Wisdom. He claimed to know the true way to apply God's Word
and He said He came as God's Living Word. He claimed that the light, bread,
water of life were all found in Him. He declared that He fulfilled the
meaning of the feasts and the great acts of God's deliverance. He declared
that He was the only way to God. He said, in essence, "I am enough. If you
believe this, follow me, but apart from me, you are not going to find God
and produce the abundant life I long to give you." Jesus is enough!

Jesus' followers declared these same basic truths.

Peter said, "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name
given under heaven by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:12 TNIV).
Jesus is God's ultimate message to use (Hebrews 1:1-3;John 1:1-18). So the
apostle Paul preached "Jesus Christ and Him crucified" (1 Corinthians 2:2),
a message centered in the truth that Jesus died for our sins according to
God's plan, was buried, was raised on the third day, and appeared to His
followers (1 Corinthians 15:1-6). This is not only the Gospel that we
believe, but it is also the Gospel that we experience when we confess Him as
Lord and are baptized with Him into His death, burial and resurrection
(Romans 6:1-4). This Gospel must not be changed, watered down, or encrusted
with add-ons, as Paul warns in the strongest terms possible (Galatians
1:5-9). Jesus is enough!

And as we seek to live life to its fullest and as we seek to grow to be all
we are made to be in Jesus, Paul adds:

   So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to
   live your lives in him, rooted and built up in him, strengthened in
   the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.
   See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and
   deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the
   elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ. For
   in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and
   in Christ you have been brought to fullness (Colossians 2:6-11).

Jesus is enough!

All the flash and demand of our religious systems are bankrupt compared to
the grace of Jesus.

So the call to us is clear. Sink the roots of our hearts deep down into
Jesus as Lord!

Know His story. Let the Holy Spirit transform us into His character as we
seek to know Him. Build our lives around His leading in our lives and our
surrender to His Lordship. So where is your Bible most worn? Is it in the
Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) where the story of Jesus is told? If
not, why not spend some more time with Jesus? Jesus is enough! Let our lives
overflow with thankfulness!

Nothing reminds us of our great blessings in Christ quite like daily praise
and thanksgiving for what God has done, given, and blessed us with in Jesus.
In times where we are prone to panic because of the economy, terrorism,
health concerns, and housing crises we need to be reminded of the love that
led Jesus to leave the safety of heaven to come to our world full of this
kind of stuff. He did it for us. Jesus is enough! Don't let anyone take us
captive through their old traditions or new experiences!

All these may sound very religious and philosophically wise, but if Jesus
didn't demand them, then why should we pursue them? Anything added to Jesus
is less than what Jesus offers us. Remember what He
said:

   You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them
   you possess eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that
   testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life (John
   5:39-40).

All the flash and demand of our religious systems are bankrupt compared to
the grace of Jesus. Jesus comes and challenges us to follow Him and let Him
be our Lord. When we do, rather than being a burden to us, Jesus promises us
this:

   Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you
   rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and
   humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke
   is easy and my burden is light (Matthew 12:28-30).

Jesus is enough!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

* Put Your Religious Practice to the Jesus Test! (Matthew 28:18-20)

   * Is the good news of Jesus proclaimed?

   * Is the person of Jesus ??" fully God and fully human as the Son of
     God on earth??" exalted?

   * Is the will of Jesus obeyed?

   * Is the life of Jesus shared?


Stu
<mailto:K5stu at sbcglobal.net>K5stu at sbcglobal.net
Reading your Bible today will help prepare you for A Brighter Tomorrow!
_______________________________________________
BlindMen4Christ mailing list
BlindMen4Christ at morales-family.lljfm.net
http://morales-family.lljfm.net/mailman/listinfo/blindmen4christ_morales-fam
ily.lljfm.net




From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Thu Nov  6 18:29:46 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 12:29:46 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Here's a Possibility
References: <83F3120A61F047839F03A237ED27F7A0@your4dacd0ea75>
Message-ID: <BFD6393AC86C441092A377377AAB5538@Alan>

What is the point of this message?  I don't remember anyone being run off this list.  I also wouldn't call the Christians on this list "bible thumpers" as that is an unfair and biased generalization.


+-+-+-

   There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who don't walk according to the flesh,  
but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Julie C. Vogt" <jcvogt at pressenter.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 9:58 AM
Subject: [Faith-talk] Here's a Possibility


> People do not agree but because they do not agree doesn't make them totally wrong.
> 
> As I understand it, the Communities of Faith was supposed to be a forum for people of all religions.  But what happened when that lady first was on this list who confessed to being a Catholic lesbian?  Everybody that thought they are James Dobson's secret identity ran her off this list and not in charge of it.
> 
> How do you think Jesus is going to settle people's hearts when we get to heaven "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye?
> 
> The voters have spoken.  In this country it is time for a change.  When the African-American Gospel stations play, "A Change is Gonna Come" by Sam Cook like it was the latest Gospel song, that ought to tell people something.
> 
> A lot of e-mail I got was down-right phobic racism and there's no two ways of looking at that.  Obama thanked McCane for a good fight and for being gracious in his acceptance speech.
> 
> But here on this list, I find everybody has their own select Bible reading and that is it.  You know where I was reading this morning?  2 Kings 6 where there was a famine in the land of Israel.  The Prophet of God said basically that within the next 24 hours, there would be low prices on badly needed food, just to paraphrase.  It made me thinkof Rev. where it says very plainly that "The fearful and unbelieving God will judge."  Perfect love casts out all fear also is another Scripture.
> 
> Some one in the crowd of Israelites didn't believe the prophecy and
> the Prophet of God that the unbeliever would see it with his own eyes, but would not be a part of it.  That man was trampled to death.
> 
> Phobia isn't going to get you anywhere these next four years, and neither is being a sore loser.  People who were leaders in the Democrat party that had their phone conversations illegally listened in on in the past four years at least learned that much.
> 
> Maybe now we will have some dialog that isn't just 100% "my way or the highway Bible thumping.  Zero tolerance didn't win the election for you because your lack of love and a few other things were showing.  Learn from it.
> 
> 
> "Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul," American Humorist Mark Twain
> 
> "An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind
> 
> "A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
> 
> "Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
> 
> "No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push, 1976.
> 
> "With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic," the Late Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation of the Blind.
> 
> Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1770 - Release Date: 11/5/2008 5:36 PM




From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Thu Nov  6 18:50:35 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 12:50:35 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Here's a Possibility
References: <83F3120A61F047839F03A237ED27F7A0@your4dacd0ea75>
	<BFD6393AC86C441092A377377AAB5538@Alan>
Message-ID: <84CA34864D734514BA7082EF62CFF9F6@your4dacd0ea75>

It happened quite a while ago.  You may not have remembered.  I think I made 
a good few points but if you're a programmed Christian it probably got past 
you.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Alan Wheeler" <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 12:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Here's a Possibility


> What is the point of this message?  I don't remember anyone being run off 
> this list.  I also wouldn't call the Christians on this list "bible 
> thumpers" as that is an unfair and biased generalization.
>
>
> +-+-+-
>
>   There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, 
> who don't walk according to the flesh,
> but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1
> ~~~
>
> Alan D Wheeler
> awheeler at neb.rr.com
> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
> Skype: redwheel1
> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at 
> www.theqonline.net
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Julie C. Vogt" <jcvogt at pressenter.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 9:58 AM
> Subject: [Faith-talk] Here's a Possibility
>
>
>> People do not agree but because they do not agree doesn't make them 
>> totally wrong.
>>
>> As I understand it, the Communities of Faith was supposed to be a forum 
>> for people of all religions.  But what happened when that lady first was 
>> on this list who confessed to being a Catholic lesbian?  Everybody that 
>> thought they are James Dobson's secret identity ran her off this list and 
>> not in charge of it.
>>
>> How do you think Jesus is going to settle people's hearts when we get to 
>> heaven "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye?
>>
>> The voters have spoken.  In this country it is time for a change.  When 
>> the African-American Gospel stations play, "A Change is Gonna Come" by 
>> Sam Cook like it was the latest Gospel song, that ought to tell people 
>> something.
>>
>> A lot of e-mail I got was down-right phobic racism and there's no two 
>> ways of looking at that.  Obama thanked McCane for a good fight and for 
>> being gracious in his acceptance speech.
>>
>> But here on this list, I find everybody has their own select Bible 
>> reading and that is it.  You know where I was reading this morning?  2 
>> Kings 6 where there was a famine in the land of Israel.  The Prophet of 
>> God said basically that within the next 24 hours, there would be low 
>> prices on badly needed food, just to paraphrase.  It made me thinkof Rev. 
>> where it says very plainly that "The fearful and unbelieving God will 
>> judge."  Perfect love casts out all fear also is another Scripture.
>>
>> Some one in the crowd of Israelites didn't believe the prophecy and
>> the Prophet of God that the unbeliever would see it with his own eyes, 
>> but would not be a part of it.  That man was trampled to death.
>>
>> Phobia isn't going to get you anywhere these next four years, and neither 
>> is being a sore loser.  People who were leaders in the Democrat party 
>> that had their phone conversations illegally listened in on in the past 
>> four years at least learned that much.
>>
>> Maybe now we will have some dialog that isn't just 100% "my way or the 
>> highway Bible thumping.  Zero tolerance didn't win the election for you 
>> because your lack of love and a few other things were showing.  Learn 
>> from it.
>>
>>
>> "Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human 
>> soul," American Humorist Mark Twain
>>
>> "An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, 
>> Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind
>>
>> "A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their 
>> contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
>>
>> "Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>>
>> "No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push, 
>> 1976.
>>
>> "With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can be 
>> reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic," the Late 
>> Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation of the Blind.
>>
>> Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1770 - Release Date: 11/5/2008 
> 5:36 PM
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1771 - Release Date: 11/6/2008 
7:58 AM




From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Thu Nov  6 20:19:00 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 14:19:00 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Here's a Possibility
References: <83F3120A61F047839F03A237ED27F7A0@your4dacd0ea75><BFD6393AC86C441092A377377AAB5538@Alan>
	<84CA34864D734514BA7082EF62CFF9F6@your4dacd0ea75>
Message-ID: <3205D71597DE4AA79B76530BC77D4FE6@Alan>

Define "programmed" Christian for me, please.


+-+-+-

   There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who don't walk according to the flesh,  
but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Julie C. Vogt" <jcvogt at pressenter.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 12:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Here's a Possibility


> It happened quite a while ago.  You may not have remembered.  I think I made 
> a good few points but if you're a programmed Christian it probably got past 
> you.
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Alan Wheeler" <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 12:29 PM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Here's a Possibility
> 
> 
>> What is the point of this message?  I don't remember anyone being run off 
>> this list.  I also wouldn't call the Christians on this list "bible 
>> thumpers" as that is an unfair and biased generalization.
>>
>>
>> +-+-+-
>>
>>   There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, 
>> who don't walk according to the flesh,
>> but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1
>> ~~~
>>
>> Alan D Wheeler
>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>> Skype: redwheel1
>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at 
>> www.theqonline.net
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Julie C. Vogt" <jcvogt at pressenter.com>
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 9:58 AM
>> Subject: [Faith-talk] Here's a Possibility
>>
>>
>>> People do not agree but because they do not agree doesn't make them 
>>> totally wrong.
>>>
>>> As I understand it, the Communities of Faith was supposed to be a forum 
>>> for people of all religions.  But what happened when that lady first was 
>>> on this list who confessed to being a Catholic lesbian?  Everybody that 
>>> thought they are James Dobson's secret identity ran her off this list and 
>>> not in charge of it.
>>>
>>> How do you think Jesus is going to settle people's hearts when we get to 
>>> heaven "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye?
>>>
>>> The voters have spoken.  In this country it is time for a change.  When 
>>> the African-American Gospel stations play, "A Change is Gonna Come" by 
>>> Sam Cook like it was the latest Gospel song, that ought to tell people 
>>> something.
>>>
>>> A lot of e-mail I got was down-right phobic racism and there's no two 
>>> ways of looking at that.  Obama thanked McCane for a good fight and for 
>>> being gracious in his acceptance speech.
>>>
>>> But here on this list, I find everybody has their own select Bible 
>>> reading and that is it.  You know where I was reading this morning?  2 
>>> Kings 6 where there was a famine in the land of Israel.  The Prophet of 
>>> God said basically that within the next 24 hours, there would be low 
>>> prices on badly needed food, just to paraphrase.  It made me thinkof Rev. 
>>> where it says very plainly that "The fearful and unbelieving God will 
>>> judge."  Perfect love casts out all fear also is another Scripture.
>>>
>>> Some one in the crowd of Israelites didn't believe the prophecy and
>>> the Prophet of God that the unbeliever would see it with his own eyes, 
>>> but would not be a part of it.  That man was trampled to death.
>>>
>>> Phobia isn't going to get you anywhere these next four years, and neither 
>>> is being a sore loser.  People who were leaders in the Democrat party 
>>> that had their phone conversations illegally listened in on in the past 
>>> four years at least learned that much.
>>>
>>> Maybe now we will have some dialog that isn't just 100% "my way or the 
>>> highway Bible thumping.  Zero tolerance didn't win the election for you 
>>> because your lack of love and a few other things were showing.  Learn 
>>> from it.
>>>
>>>
>>> "Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human 
>>> soul," American Humorist Mark Twain
>>>
>>> "An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, 
>>> Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind
>>>
>>> "A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their 
>>> contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
>>>
>>> "Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>>>
>>> "No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push, 
>>> 1976.
>>>
>>> "With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can be 
>>> reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic," the Late 
>>> Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation of the Blind.
>>>
>>> Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1770 - Release Date: 11/5/2008 
>> 5:36 PM
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>>
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1771 - Release Date: 11/6/2008 
> 7:58 AM
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1770 - Release Date: 11/5/2008 5:36 PM




From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Thu Nov  6 21:49:45 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 15:49:45 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Here's a Possibility
References: <83F3120A61F047839F03A237ED27F7A0@your4dacd0ea75><BFD6393AC86C441092A377377AAB5538@Alan><84CA34864D734514BA7082EF62CFF9F6@your4dacd0ea75>
	<3205D71597DE4AA79B76530BC77D4FE6@Alan>
Message-ID: <741E985295E64CD99809275EC7A0A3D1@your4dacd0ea75>

A programmed Christian is some one who only knows their pet Scriptures and 
hasn't spent any time reading their Bible through and through so that when 
it's time to argue with some body, they just recite their pet Scriptures.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Alan Wheeler" <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 2:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Here's a Possibility


> Define "programmed" Christian for me, please.
>
>
> +-+-+-
>
>   There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, 
> who don't walk according to the flesh,
> but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1
> ~~~
>
> Alan D Wheeler
> awheeler at neb.rr.com
> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
> Skype: redwheel1
> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at 
> www.theqonline.net
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Julie C. Vogt" <jcvogt at pressenter.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 12:50 PM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Here's a Possibility
>
>
>> It happened quite a while ago.  You may not have remembered.  I think I 
>> made
>> a good few points but if you're a programmed Christian it probably got 
>> past
>> you.
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Alan Wheeler" <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 12:29 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Here's a Possibility
>>
>>
>>> What is the point of this message?  I don't remember anyone being run 
>>> off
>>> this list.  I also wouldn't call the Christians on this list "bible
>>> thumpers" as that is an unfair and biased generalization.
>>>
>>>
>>> +-+-+-
>>>
>>>   There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ 
>>> Jesus,
>>> who don't walk according to the flesh,
>>> but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1
>>> ~~~
>>>
>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>> www.theqonline.net
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Julie C. Vogt" <jcvogt at pressenter.com>
>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 9:58 AM
>>> Subject: [Faith-talk] Here's a Possibility
>>>
>>>
>>>> People do not agree but because they do not agree doesn't make them
>>>> totally wrong.
>>>>
>>>> As I understand it, the Communities of Faith was supposed to be a forum
>>>> for people of all religions.  But what happened when that lady first 
>>>> was
>>>> on this list who confessed to being a Catholic lesbian?  Everybody that
>>>> thought they are James Dobson's secret identity ran her off this list 
>>>> and
>>>> not in charge of it.
>>>>
>>>> How do you think Jesus is going to settle people's hearts when we get 
>>>> to
>>>> heaven "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye?
>>>>
>>>> The voters have spoken.  In this country it is time for a change.  When
>>>> the African-American Gospel stations play, "A Change is Gonna Come" by
>>>> Sam Cook like it was the latest Gospel song, that ought to tell people
>>>> something.
>>>>
>>>> A lot of e-mail I got was down-right phobic racism and there's no two
>>>> ways of looking at that.  Obama thanked McCane for a good fight and for
>>>> being gracious in his acceptance speech.
>>>>
>>>> But here on this list, I find everybody has their own select Bible
>>>> reading and that is it.  You know where I was reading this morning?  2
>>>> Kings 6 where there was a famine in the land of Israel.  The Prophet of
>>>> God said basically that within the next 24 hours, there would be low
>>>> prices on badly needed food, just to paraphrase.  It made me thinkof 
>>>> Rev.
>>>> where it says very plainly that "The fearful and unbelieving God will
>>>> judge."  Perfect love casts out all fear also is another Scripture.
>>>>
>>>> Some one in the crowd of Israelites didn't believe the prophecy and
>>>> the Prophet of God that the unbeliever would see it with his own eyes,
>>>> but would not be a part of it.  That man was trampled to death.
>>>>
>>>> Phobia isn't going to get you anywhere these next four years, and 
>>>> neither
>>>> is being a sore loser.  People who were leaders in the Democrat party
>>>> that had their phone conversations illegally listened in on in the past
>>>> four years at least learned that much.
>>>>
>>>> Maybe now we will have some dialog that isn't just 100% "my way or the
>>>> highway Bible thumping.  Zero tolerance didn't win the election for you
>>>> because your lack of love and a few other things were showing.  Learn
>>>> from it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human
>>>> soul," American Humorist Mark Twain
>>>>
>>>> "An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth 
>>>> Jernigan,
>>>> Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind
>>>>
>>>> "A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their
>>>> contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
>>>>
>>>> "Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>>>>
>>>> "No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push,
>>>> 1976.
>>>>
>>>> "With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can be
>>>> reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic," the 
>>>> Late
>>>> Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation of the Blind.
>>>>
>>>> Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1770 - Release Date: 
>>> 11/5/2008
>>> 5:36 PM
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1771 - Release Date: 11/6/2008
>> 7:58 AM
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1770 - Release Date: 11/5/2008 
> 5:36 PM
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1771 - Release Date: 11/6/2008 
7:58 AM




From sslucki at chariot.net.au  Thu Nov  6 23:49:50 2008
From: sslucki at chariot.net.au (Stefan Slucki)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 10:19:50 +1030
Subject: [Faith-talk] subscription details for the blind Christians list,
	please
Message-ID: <1D96754A38F84A85BDA89B7088F87D3D@stefan706c912c>

Could someone please pass along subscription details for the Blind 
Christians list, please.

Thank you.

Stefan Slucki. 


From mentink at frontiernet.net  Fri Nov  7 01:42:49 2008
From: mentink at frontiernet.net (Linda Mentink)
Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2008 19:42:49 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Boy friends, et cetera
In-Reply-To: <B939A1E896D54B128F89065D6D91F4CD@your4dacd0ea75>
References: <ec48b4150811040802j86e29d4w75020fd8ccb438be@mail.gmail.com>
	<000501c93e9f$9ff70ce0$4a79a463@IBMB7D6F383D44>
	<BAY133-DAV84F213C65D09F620D1C77901C0@phx.gbl>
	<EMEW-kA45ur5580c9ceb691fb467dfcb183caf59eb2-019901c93ee6$3f163530$5866eb04@rjige047kjawst>
	<EMEW-kA4HG85678d778fc7f51cdf706318acca3c0c2-1C20ACD1E11C974EB176D018E5B46836A9783B@EVS2.gcag.net>
	<20081106034443.637C4CCBCB@relay04.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
	<B939A1E896D54B128F89065D6D91F4CD@your4dacd0ea75>
Message-ID: <20081107014248.6B34ACCD3B@relay04.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>

Julie, Now I'll take this public, since you did.

I didn't write you to counsel you; only to explain why we were 
getting old messages for a while, and to ask you not to respond on 
the list stating, or rather overstating, how old they are.  There is 
nothing we can do, and, if you continue this uncalled-for, angry 
behavior, I'll ask Dave to remove you.  I find it hard to believe 
that you are truly a Christian when you write this kind of stuff.

Folks, she did write me a message with blah a whole bunch of 
times.  I will counsel you now, Julie, to use your time more 
wisely.  I was only trying to be helpful, and I don't appreciate your 
spending your time to write me such stupid, nonsensical, immature 
messages.  You're 63; act like it.

Enough of this now from me.  I will say no more, but will do as I 
said.  I'm really angry!

 From the certain list moderator

At 07:23 AM 11/6/2008, you wrote:
>I know that when a certain moderator continues to write me off-list 
>and think she's the Pope or the only one with God's counsel, I shall 
>just write her privately:  Blah, blah, blah for a few lines.
>
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "Penny Golden" <goldpen at frontiernet.net>
>To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
><faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 9:44 PM
>Subject: [Faith-talk] Boy friends, et cetera
>
>
>>Dear Readers,
>>
>>I read the note asking for prayer for a man who is supposedly a
>>hypocrite and was avoiding the writer of the note.
>>I am afraid I felt a little sorry for the guy she was writing
>>about.  Is it possible that, somehow, she is pursuing this individual
>>in a way that is not comfortable for him?
>>He doesn't perhaps want to come out and say: could you back off--but
>>that may be the way he feels.  Is something embarrassing him about
>>the relationship?  Is he feeling somehow entrapped?
>>
>>I'm sorry to write on such a delicate subject in this manner.  We
>>don't have the entire story--and, probably, it is a good thing we do not.
>>
>>Maybe the boy wants some space.  maybe he has plans to visit the
>>parade with someone else.  Maybe, for some reason, he is not
>>comfortable with the writer.
>>
>>My Aunt, a wise old pagan, told me something that I have never forgotten:
>>
>>She said, "Penny, you must not be so possessive."
>>
>>I was twelve years old at the time; a friend of mine had promised to
>>come over and I was really fretted about it.  Yes, it was a broken
>>promise and it was not right of my friend to make a promise and 
>>then break it.
>>
>>But perhaps my wise old Aunt was correct: I was being too possessive
>>of my friend.  She might have wanted to pursue something that she was
>>uncomfortable for me to be a part of.
>>
>>I remember how Tom Sawyer would go down-town but he didn't want
>>Huckleberry to accompany him on such jaunts.  Huck and Tom were good
>>friends--but somehow, his raggedy friend Huck was a bit of a drawback
>>in some of Tom's plans and pursuits.
>>
>>I do have a wonderful group of friends whom, I think, feel
>>comfortable with me.  This subject might well be one that needs a
>>little airing.
>>
>>If we force our friends to play with us, at some point, they'll go
>>elsewhere, where we can't follow--just to get some breathing room.
>>
>>Forgive me if I've stepped on too many corns.
>>
>>On another subject--I've seen so much anger and unkindness in some
>>posts that I have just refused to read any further posts from people
>>who have hit me that way.  I never thought I would get to the place
>>where I would avoid reading correspondence to a list just based upon
>>the writer's name--for I'd been so disappointed in what I had read in
>>the recent past.
>>
>>Maybe that's how my letter hits some of our readers.  If so, I'm sorry.
>>
>>As blind people, we are pretty sensitive to having been discriminated
>>against in various situations--only because of the
>>blindness.  Sometimes it is true discrimination and it's
>>despicable.  Sometimes we have made ourselves so unlovable or so
>>nasty or so vociferous that we have made others tremendously
>>uncomfortable or embarrassed to be around us.
>>
>>Thanks for hearing me out.  I don't have a lot of answers--and I
>>haven't presented my thoughts too  rationally.  But perhaps someone
>>understands something of what I've tried to say.
>>
>>Kindest regards,
>>Penny
>>
>>P.S. I do hope this subject is not beyond the compass of this list.
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Faith-talk mailing list
>>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>for Faith-talk:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1770 - Release Date: 
>11/5/2008 5:36 PM
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Faith-talk mailing list
>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>for Faith-talk:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net





From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Fri Nov  7 02:13:38 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 20:13:38 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Linda
Message-ID: <B3D358FDD7364ABB85C533C030CD4DCA@your4dacd0ea75>

Obviously you over-looked how I should think like you because you're a right-wing Christian and when that didn't change me, you got Penny involved.

Blah, blah, blah.



"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul," American Humorist Mark Twain

"An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind

"A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV

"Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)

"No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push, 1976.

"With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic," the Late Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation of the Blind.

Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com 





From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Fri Nov  7 02:42:57 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 20:42:57 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Linda
Message-ID: <23316393A2F34CEA8E99EB05C50F2299@your4dacd0ea75>

You've kicked a lot of people off this list because they didn't agree with you.  The good news is you don't have a heaven or hell to put any one of them in.  Someday your sins will find you out.



"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul," American Humorist Mark Twain

"An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind

"A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV

"Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)

"No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push, 1976.

"With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic," the Late Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation of the Blind.

Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com 





From mentink at frontiernet.net  Fri Nov  7 03:58:48 2008
From: mentink at frontiernet.net (Linda Mentink)
Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2008 21:58:48 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Linda
In-Reply-To: <B3D358FDD7364ABB85C533C030CD4DCA@your4dacd0ea75>
References: <B3D358FDD7364ABB85C533C030CD4DCA@your4dacd0ea75>
Message-ID: <20081107035846.D3B4CAC816@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>

Julie, I did not get Penny involved.  We'd be in a heap of trouble if 
everyone thought the same; all but one would be unnecessary.  Stop 
picking fights.  I shouldn't even dignify this message with a 
response.  You are falsely accusing me, and I'm not going to take 
it.  All you want to do is cause trouble and dissension.  Grow up, 
close your mouth, and open your heart and your ears so that you can 
hear what's really being said on this list and from my private notes 
to you.  You are attacking me, and I've done nothing to deserve 
it.  Stop.  Cease and dissist!

At 08:13 PM 11/6/2008, you wrote:
>Obviously you over-looked how I should think like you because you're 
>a right-wing Christian and when that didn't change me, you got Penny involved.
>
>Blah, blah, blah.
>
>
>
>"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a 
>human soul," American Humorist Mark Twain
>
>"An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth 
>Jernigan, Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind
>
>"A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and 
>their contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
>
>"Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>
>"No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push, 1976.
>
>"With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can 
>be reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic," 
>the Late Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation 
>of the Blind.
>
>Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Faith-talk mailing list
>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>for Faith-talk:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net





From mentink at frontiernet.net  Fri Nov  7 04:24:16 2008
From: mentink at frontiernet.net (Linda Mentink)
Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2008 22:24:16 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] This List
Message-ID: <20081107042414.B82D01A0333@relay03.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>

Hi all,

This list is for the discussion of blindess and faith.  I'm not going 
to tolerate any more disrespect of list members or the list 
moderator, nor will I respond to it.  The person Julie mentioned from 
long ago took herself off the list when she couldn't answer questions 
about how she planned to resolve her lesbyanism with her desire to 
minister in the Catholic church.  Stuff happens!

Now, if people want to twist what we say here, and they make false 
statements about what is said here, they will be removed.  Vengeance 
is the Lord's, and there should not be any back-biting among 
Christians.  For now, I'll just consider the source, and have it 
dealt with.  More Immediately,  I'm shutting this computer down for 
the night and I'm going to try to get some sleep.




From pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net  Fri Nov  7 05:45:00 2008
From: pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net (Peter Donahue)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 23:45:00 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Linda
References: <B3D358FDD7364ABB85C533C030CD4DCA@your4dacd0ea75>
	<20081107035846.D3B4CAC816@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
Message-ID: <002b01c9409b$fa6150c0$210110ac@yourfsyly0jtwn>

Good evening everyone,

If you asked me you're both at fault for letting this go on in a public 
forum! Please take it off list stat!! While I'm not the moderator I'm 
embarrassed that this kind of stuff is going on here and our inboxes are 
being cluttered with messages that are all but uplifting, informative, and 
that promote the involvement of the blind in their communities of faith. 
Mary and I are tired of this thread and would appreciate it if you two would 
go at each other privately as I'm sure others on this list must feel the 
same way. Peace everyone, and all the best for a wonderful Holiday Season.

Peter Donahue

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Linda Mentink" <mentink at frontiernet.net>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 9:58 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Linda


Julie, I did not get Penny involved.  We'd be in a heap of trouble if
everyone thought the same; all but one would be unnecessary.  Stop
picking fights.  I shouldn't even dignify this message with a
response.  You are falsely accusing me, and I'm not going to take
it.  All you want to do is cause trouble and dissension.  Grow up,
close your mouth, and open your heart and your ears so that you can
hear what's really being said on this list and from my private notes
to you.  You are attacking me, and I've done nothing to deserve
it.  Stop.  Cease and dissist!

At 08:13 PM 11/6/2008, you wrote:
>Obviously you over-looked how I should think like you because you're
>a right-wing Christian and when that didn't change me, you got Penny 
>involved.
>
>Blah, blah, blah.
>
>
>
>"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a
>human soul," American Humorist Mark Twain
>
>"An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth
>Jernigan, Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind
>
>"A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and
>their contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
>
>"Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>
>"No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push, 1976.
>
>"With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can
>be reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic,"
>the Late Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation
>of the Blind.
>
>Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Faith-talk mailing list
>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>for Faith-talk:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net



_______________________________________________
Faith-talk mailing list
Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
Faith-talk:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/pdonahue1%40sbcglobal.net 




From braille at sbcglobal.net  Fri Nov  7 10:33:08 2008
From: braille at sbcglobal.net (Mary Donahue)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 04:33:08 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] A More Positive Request: Prayer for My Supervisor
Message-ID: <000901c940c4$4cf6cc20$220110ac@your96fc0aa548>

Good morning everyone,

    I want to shift the subject to a more serious request, one that this 
list is supposed to contain--a prayer request. When you all get a chance, 
please pray for my supervisor, Vivian Seki. Vivian is supposed to have heel 
surgery next Friday morning, November 14, at San Antonio Methodist 
Ambulatory Hospital. I don't know much about this hospital except that it is 
a complete day surgery facility. At any rate, Vivian will be in a cast for 
four weeks, as well as in a wheelchair, so she will find out what the 
Americans with Disabilities Act is all about. She is planning on going back 
to work after surgery. If you can please keep her in your thoughts and 
prayers, that would be wonderful and appreciated.

    Have a blessed day and a great weekend ahead.

Mary Donahue





From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Fri Nov  7 12:57:52 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 06:57:52 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] This List
References: <20081107042414.B82D01A0333@relay03.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
Message-ID: <EE6AEF8E9E7A455C8D6C4DE83427ADFD@Alan>

Linda,
I want you to know that I support this list and everything you (and the rest of us) try to accomplish via this list.  I may jump to this list in an impulsive manner that leads to me saying something I may be sorry for, but that's because I am human, and can be like Peter striking the ear of the soldier, if you get my drift. *SMILE*

Alan


+-+-+-

   The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an 
 habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him. 
 Exodus 15:2
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Linda Mentink" <mentink at frontiernet.net>
To: <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 10:24 PM
Subject: [Faith-talk] This List


> Hi all,
> 
> This list is for the discussion of blindess and faith.  I'm not going 
> to tolerate any more disrespect of list members or the list 
> moderator, nor will I respond to it.  The person Julie mentioned from 
> long ago took herself off the list when she couldn't answer questions 
> about how she planned to resolve her lesbyanism with her desire to 
> minister in the Catholic church.  Stuff happens!
> 
> Now, if people want to twist what we say here, and they make false 
> statements about what is said here, they will be removed.  Vengeance 
> is the Lord's, and there should not be any back-biting among 
> Christians.  For now, I'll just consider the source, and have it 
> dealt with.  More Immediately,  I'm shutting this computer down for 
> the night and I'm going to try to get some sleep.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1772 - Release Date: 11/6/2008 8:23 PM




From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Fri Nov  7 13:00:33 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 07:00:33 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Linda
References: <B3D358FDD7364ABB85C533C030CD4DCA@your4dacd0ea75><20081107035846.D3B4CAC816@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
	<002b01c9409b$fa6150c0$210110ac@yourfsyly0jtwn>
Message-ID: <668B33F161124ABAAAF3DB0B38F4C012@Alan>

Peter,
Quite honestly?  I don't blame Linda for being angry.  I suspect by the end of the day Julie will most likely be removed from the list and peace will soon return.


+-+-+-

   O LORD, there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our 
 ears. 1 Chronicles 17:20
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 11:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Linda


> Good evening everyone,
> 
> If you asked me you're both at fault for letting this go on in a public 
> forum! Please take it off list stat!! While I'm not the moderator I'm 
> embarrassed that this kind of stuff is going on here and our inboxes are 
> being cluttered with messages that are all but uplifting, informative, and 
> that promote the involvement of the blind in their communities of faith. 
> Mary and I are tired of this thread and would appreciate it if you two would 
> go at each other privately as I'm sure others on this list must feel the 
> same way. Peace everyone, and all the best for a wonderful Holiday Season.
> 
> Peter Donahue
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Linda Mentink" <mentink at frontiernet.net>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 9:58 PM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Linda
> 
> 
> Julie, I did not get Penny involved.  We'd be in a heap of trouble if
> everyone thought the same; all but one would be unnecessary.  Stop
> picking fights.  I shouldn't even dignify this message with a
> response.  You are falsely accusing me, and I'm not going to take
> it.  All you want to do is cause trouble and dissension.  Grow up,
> close your mouth, and open your heart and your ears so that you can
> hear what's really being said on this list and from my private notes
> to you.  You are attacking me, and I've done nothing to deserve
> it.  Stop.  Cease and dissist!
> 
> At 08:13 PM 11/6/2008, you wrote:
>>Obviously you over-looked how I should think like you because you're
>>a right-wing Christian and when that didn't change me, you got Penny 
>>involved.
>>
>>Blah, blah, blah.
>>
>>
>>
>>"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a
>>human soul," American Humorist Mark Twain
>>
>>"An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth
>>Jernigan, Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind
>>
>>"A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and
>>their contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
>>
>>"Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>>
>>"No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push, 1976.
>>
>>"With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can
>>be reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic,"
>>the Late Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation
>>of the Blind.
>>
>>Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Faith-talk mailing list
>>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>for Faith-talk:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/pdonahue1%40sbcglobal.net 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1772 - Release Date: 11/6/2008 8:23 PM




From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Fri Nov  7 13:15:04 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 07:15:04 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Prayer request.
Message-ID: <89E8BFF71EDA4292B4D013B580AE3513@Alan>

Hi folks,
Today I am traveling with my pastor for a meeting with some people who are going to facilitate our services being on their radio station(s).

Naturally, since the trip is over an hour, I pray for safe travel/traveling mercies, and I also pray that God bless this meeting.

I should note, and not out of a sense of boasting, that I am going to this meeting as I edited the sermons into two installments and made it sound like an actual radio ministry show, doing actual narrating as well as editing.  I mention that so as to ask for continued prayer as I continue to do this work for my church.

Alan


+-+-+-

   Don't be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what 
is the good, well-pleasing, and perfect will of God. Romans 12:2
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net


From goldpen at frontiernet.net  Fri Nov  7 14:12:10 2008
From: goldpen at frontiernet.net (Penny Golden)
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2008 08:12:10 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Prayer request.
In-Reply-To: <89E8BFF71EDA4292B4D013B580AE3513@Alan>
References: <89E8BFF71EDA4292B4D013B580AE3513@Alan>
Message-ID: <20081107141208.4782DACB42@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>

Praying, allan. I'd love to hear the broadcast sometime.
Penny
At 07:15 AM 11/7/2008, you wrote:
>Hi folks,
>Today I am traveling with my pastor for a meeting with some people 
>who are going to facilitate our services being on their radio station(s).
>
>Naturally, since the trip is over an hour, I pray for safe 
>travel/traveling mercies, and I also pray that God bless this meeting.
>
>I should note, and not out of a sense of boasting, that I am going 
>to this meeting as I edited the sermons into two installments and 
>made it sound like an actual radio ministry show, doing actual 
>narrating as well as editing.  I mention that so as to ask for 
>continued prayer as I continue to do this work for my church.
>
>Alan
>
>
>+-+-+-
>
>    Don't be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the 
> renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what
>is the good, well-pleasing, and perfect will of God. Romans 12:2
>~~~
>
>Alan D Wheeler
>awheeler at neb.rr.com
>IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>Skype: redwheel1
>Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at 
>www.theqonline.net
>_______________________________________________
>Faith-talk mailing list
>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>for Faith-talk:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/goldpen%40frontiernet.net





From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Fri Nov  7 15:12:19 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 09:12:19 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] A More Positive Request: Prayer for My Supervisor
References: <000901c940c4$4cf6cc20$220110ac@your96fc0aa548>
Message-ID: <60BE1B8765464212B29E0B11381D0048@your4dacd0ea75>

Will pray.  Isn't it wonderful that the lady in our national office who had 
brain surgery is doing so well?


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mary Donahue" <braille at sbcglobal.net>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 4:33 AM
Subject: [Faith-talk] A More Positive Request: Prayer for My Supervisor


> Good morning everyone,
>
>    I want to shift the subject to a more serious request, one that this
> list is supposed to contain--a prayer request. When you all get a chance,
> please pray for my supervisor, Vivian Seki. Vivian is supposed to have 
> heel
> surgery next Friday morning, November 14, at San Antonio Methodist
> Ambulatory Hospital. I don't know much about this hospital except that it 
> is
> a complete day surgery facility. At any rate, Vivian will be in a cast for
> four weeks, as well as in a wheelchair, so she will find out what the
> Americans with Disabilities Act is all about. She is planning on going 
> back
> to work after surgery. If you can please keep her in your thoughts and
> prayers, that would be wonderful and appreciated.
>
>    Have a blessed day and a great weekend ahead.
>
> Mary Donahue
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1772 - Release Date: 11/6/2008 
8:23 PM




From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Fri Nov  7 15:13:00 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 09:13:00 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Prayer request.
References: <89E8BFF71EDA4292B4D013B580AE3513@Alan>
Message-ID: <2F221123CA0841F09D3CA5E863F3751D@your4dacd0ea75>

Will pray.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Alan Wheeler" <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
To: <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 7:15 AM
Subject: [Faith-talk] Prayer request.


> Hi folks,
> Today I am traveling with my pastor for a meeting with some people who are 
> going to facilitate our services being on their radio station(s).
>
> Naturally, since the trip is over an hour, I pray for safe 
> travel/traveling mercies, and I also pray that God bless this meeting.
>
> I should note, and not out of a sense of boasting, that I am going to this 
> meeting as I edited the sermons into two installments and made it sound 
> like an actual radio ministry show, doing actual narrating as well as 
> editing.  I mention that so as to ask for continued prayer as I continue 
> to do this work for my church.
>
> Alan
>
>
> +-+-+-
>
>   Don't be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of 
> your mind, so that you may prove what
> is the good, well-pleasing, and perfect will of God. Romans 12:2
> ~~~
>
> Alan D Wheeler
> awheeler at neb.rr.com
> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
> Skype: redwheel1
> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at 
> www.theqonline.net
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1772 - Release Date: 11/6/2008 
8:23 PM




From mentink at frontiernet.net  Fri Nov  7 16:35:07 2008
From: mentink at frontiernet.net (Linda Mentink)
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2008 10:35:07 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] A More Positive Request: Prayer for My Supervisor
In-Reply-To: <000901c940c4$4cf6cc20$220110ac@your96fc0aa548>
References: <000901c940c4$4cf6cc20$220110ac@your96fc0aa548>
Message-ID: <20081107163506.3F55ACCC03@relay04.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>

Hi Mary,

I'll pray for Vivian, and hopefully will remember to do so on the surgery day.

Blessings,

Linda




From mentink at frontiernet.net  Fri Nov  7 16:40:55 2008
From: mentink at frontiernet.net (Linda Mentink)
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2008 10:40:55 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Prayer request.
In-Reply-To: <89E8BFF71EDA4292B4D013B580AE3513@Alan>
References: <89E8BFF71EDA4292B4D013B580AE3513@Alan>
Message-ID: <20081107164054.52FD41981AB@relay02.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>

Hi Alan,

Please let us know how things went when you get back.  It's great 
that you can help out like that.

Blessings,

Linda




From bethkats at cox.net  Fri Nov  7 16:47:05 2008
From: bethkats at cox.net (Beth Kats)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 08:47:05 -0800
Subject: [Faith-talk] A More Positive Request: Prayer for My Supervisor
In-Reply-To: <000901c940c4$4cf6cc20$220110ac@your96fc0aa548>
References: <000901c940c4$4cf6cc20$220110ac@your96fc0aa548>
Message-ID: <002901c940f8$773c2ff0$ef956f44@windows6996273>

	Yes, I will pray.  That seems major even if it is a day surgery.  I
know what it's like not to walk well.  I am in a lot of pain, myself.  My
back, legs, arms, and shoulders hurt.  I think it is just part of my Fibro
Myalgia, but it is mor ongoing.  I would appreciate your prayers.
Beth

-----Original Message-----
From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Mary Donahue
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 2:33 AM
To: Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion
Subject: [Faith-talk] A More Positive Request: Prayer for My Supervisor

Good morning everyone,

    I want to shift the subject to a more serious request, one that this 
list is supposed to contain--a prayer request. When you all get a chance, 
please pray for my supervisor, Vivian Seki. Vivian is supposed to have heel 
surgery next Friday morning, November 14, at San Antonio Methodist 
Ambulatory Hospital. I don't know much about this hospital except that it is

a complete day surgery facility. At any rate, Vivian will be in a cast for 
four weeks, as well as in a wheelchair, so she will find out what the 
Americans with Disabilities Act is all about. She is planning on going back 
to work after surgery. If you can please keep her in your thoughts and 
prayers, that would be wonderful and appreciated.

    Have a blessed day and a great weekend ahead.

Mary Donahue



_______________________________________________
Faith-talk mailing list
Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Faith-talk:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/bethkats%40cox.n
et

__________ NOD32 3593 (20081107) Information __________

This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
http://www.eset.com





From wesley.burden at verizon.net  Fri Nov  7 19:10:10 2008
From: wesley.burden at verizon.net (WESLEY BURDEN)
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2008 14:10:10 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] A More Positive Request: Prayer for My Supervisor
In-Reply-To: <002901c940f8$773c2ff0$ef956f44@windows6996273>
References: <000901c940c4$4cf6cc20$220110ac@your96fc0aa548>
	<002901c940f8$773c2ff0$ef956f44@windows6996273>
Message-ID: <EB68E15368D3467DABA45434C7508EDE@Buster>

Beth will pray for you.
 

-----Original Message-----
From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Beth Kats
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 11:47 AM
To: 'Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion'
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] A More Positive Request: Prayer for My Supervisor

	Yes, I will pray.  That seems major even if it is a day surgery.  I
know what it's like not to walk well.  I am in a lot of pain, myself.  My
back, legs, arms, and shoulders hurt.  I think it is just part of my Fibro
Myalgia, but it is mor ongoing.  I would appreciate your prayers.
Beth

-----Original Message-----
From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Mary Donahue
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 2:33 AM
To: Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion
Subject: [Faith-talk] A More Positive Request: Prayer for My Supervisor

Good morning everyone,

    I want to shift the subject to a more serious request, one that this
list is supposed to contain--a prayer request. When you all get a chance,
please pray for my supervisor, Vivian Seki. Vivian is supposed to have heel
surgery next Friday morning, November 14, at San Antonio Methodist
Ambulatory Hospital. I don't know much about this hospital except that it is

a complete day surgery facility. At any rate, Vivian will be in a cast for
four weeks, as well as in a wheelchair, so she will find out what the
Americans with Disabilities Act is all about. She is planning on going back
to work after surgery. If you can please keep her in your thoughts and
prayers, that would be wonderful and appreciated.

    Have a blessed day and a great weekend ahead.

Mary Donahue



_______________________________________________
Faith-talk mailing list
Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Faith-talk:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/bethkats%40cox.n
et

__________ NOD32 3593 (20081107) Information __________

This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
http://www.eset.com



_______________________________________________
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Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Faith-talk:
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verizon.net




From braille at sbcglobal.net  Fri Nov  7 23:03:20 2008
From: braille at sbcglobal.net (Mary Donahue)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 17:03:20 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] A More Positive Request: Prayer for My Supervisor
References: <000901c940c4$4cf6cc20$220110ac@your96fc0aa548>
	<002901c940f8$773c2ff0$ef956f44@windows6996273>
Message-ID: <000701c9412d$086d89e0$220110ac@your96fc0aa548>

Thanks, Beth. Vivian is a very dear person, not only as a supervisor, but as 
a good friend. I've known her for almost 20 years from when we were both 
co-workers together. Now, she's my boss, so I have to mind my Ps and Qs.

Mary Donahue


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth Kats" <bethkats at cox.net>
To: "'Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion'" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 10:47 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] A More Positive Request: Prayer for My Supervisor


> Yes, I will pray.  That seems major even if it is a day surgery.  I
> know what it's like not to walk well.  I am in a lot of pain, myself.  My
> back, legs, arms, and shoulders hurt.  I think it is just part of my Fibro
> Myalgia, but it is mor ongoing.  I would appreciate your prayers.
> Beth
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On Behalf Of Mary Donahue
> Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 2:33 AM
> To: Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion
> Subject: [Faith-talk] A More Positive Request: Prayer for My Supervisor
>
> Good morning everyone,
>
>    I want to shift the subject to a more serious request, one that this
> list is supposed to contain--a prayer request. When you all get a chance,
> please pray for my supervisor, Vivian Seki. Vivian is supposed to have 
> heel
> surgery next Friday morning, November 14, at San Antonio Methodist
> Ambulatory Hospital. I don't know much about this hospital except that it 
> is
>
> a complete day surgery facility. At any rate, Vivian will be in a cast for
> four weeks, as well as in a wheelchair, so she will find out what the
> Americans with Disabilities Act is all about. She is planning on going 
> back
> to work after surgery. If you can please keep her in your thoughts and
> prayers, that would be wonderful and appreciated.
>
>    Have a blessed day and a great weekend ahead.
>
> Mary Donahue
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/bethkats%40cox.n
> et
>
> __________ NOD32 3593 (20081107) Information __________
>
> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/braille%40sbcglobal.net 




From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Sat Nov  8 01:52:52 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 19:52:52 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Prayer request.
References: <89E8BFF71EDA4292B4D013B580AE3513@Alan>
	<20081107141208.4782DACB42@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
Message-ID: <E7F54921BEC84111B0DEE68DE914AB62@Alan>

Penny,
It will be on a station in Iowa, and they hope to have the feed on the internet.  Give me some time to catch up on e-mail and sleep and I'll send you copies of the files for the first two broadcasts I put together.


+-+-+-

   Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD. 
 Deuteronomy 6:4
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Penny Golden" <goldpen at frontiernet.net>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 8:12 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Prayer request.


> Praying, allan. I'd love to hear the broadcast sometime.
> Penny
> At 07:15 AM 11/7/2008, you wrote:
>>Hi folks,
>>Today I am traveling with my pastor for a meeting with some people 
>>who are going to facilitate our services being on their radio station(s).
>>
>>Naturally, since the trip is over an hour, I pray for safe 
>>travel/traveling mercies, and I also pray that God bless this meeting.
>>
>>I should note, and not out of a sense of boasting, that I am going 
>>to this meeting as I edited the sermons into two installments and 
>>made it sound like an actual radio ministry show, doing actual 
>>narrating as well as editing.  I mention that so as to ask for 
>>continued prayer as I continue to do this work for my church.
>>
>>Alan
>>
>>
>>+-+-+-
>>
>>    Don't be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the 
>> renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what
>>is the good, well-pleasing, and perfect will of God. Romans 12:2
>>~~~
>>
>>Alan D Wheeler
>>awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>Skype: redwheel1
>>Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at 
>>www.theqonline.net
>>_______________________________________________
>>Faith-talk mailing list
>>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>for Faith-talk:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/goldpen%40frontiernet.net
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1774 - Release Date: 11/7/2008 7:58 PM




From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Sat Nov  8 01:56:12 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 19:56:12 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Prayer request.
References: <89E8BFF71EDA4292B4D013B580AE3513@Alan>
	<20081107164054.52FD41981AB@relay02.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
Message-ID: <9CB991FD865D4B4F8F3C8AAFDF1FE153@Alan>

Linda,
The trip went good.  We're looking at starting the broadcasts some time around January.

The best part of the trip was the long ride and having the time to get to know my pastor.  We had some great conversations.


+-+-+-

   For he who has died has been freed from sin. 
 Romans 6:7
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Linda Mentink" <mentink at frontiernet.net>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 10:40 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Prayer request.


> Hi Alan,
> 
> Please let us know how things went when you get back.  It's great 
> that you can help out like that.
> 
> Blessings,
> 
> Linda
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1774 - Release Date: 11/7/2008 7:58 PM




From lauraeaves at yahoo.com  Sat Nov  8 02:01:21 2008
From: lauraeaves at yahoo.com (tribble)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 20:01:21 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] hi all -- a question
Message-ID: <73F15B03471B4C0F865E541C11F13EE1@bassclef>

Greetings all --
I hope all are doing well.
I have not been subscribed to this list for a long time but wanted to join 
now as I have just gotten a new assignment as a sunday school teacher to 12 
and 13 year old children.
I was just wondering if anyone has had experience teaching a class of 
youngsters without sight. (The kids are sighted.)
I am not looking for help with the content of the lessons as that is mapped 
out in the lesson manual, and every church has slightly different beliefs --  
but I am looking for any helpful suggestions on managing a class of 
children. The person who gave me the assignment suggested I designate a 
class president from among the class members to help me with visual aids, 
calling on people, etc. I am going to take this advice, but I am still quite 
daunted at the thought of teaching this class.
So if anyone has any advice, please feel free to share.
There are usually between 8 and 12 children in attendance each Sunday, which 
is a lot of kids to keep interested.
But I am looking forward to the challenge.
Thanks in advance and have a great weekend.
--le




From bethkats at cox.net  Sat Nov  8 02:30:39 2008
From: bethkats at cox.net (Beth Kats)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 18:30:39 -0800
Subject: [Faith-talk] Here's a Possibility
In-Reply-To: <BFD6393AC86C441092A377377AAB5538@Alan>
References: <83F3120A61F047839F03A237ED27F7A0@your4dacd0ea75>
	<BFD6393AC86C441092A377377AAB5538@Alan>
Message-ID: <000001c94149$fd79b640$ef956f44@windows6996273>

Allen,
I like the Bible verses at the end of your messages!  The passage in Romans,
"There is therefore no concemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.  That
is inspiring!  I like John 3-16.  I hope that the false accusations can stop
and we can be good Christian examples to each other on this list.
Beth

-----Original Message-----
From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Alan Wheeler
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 10:30 AM
To: Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Here's a Possibility

What is the point of this message?  I don't remember anyone being run off
this list.  I also wouldn't call the Christians on this list "bible
thumpers" as that is an unfair and biased generalization.


+-+-+-

   There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,
who don't walk according to the flesh,  
but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Julie C. Vogt" <jcvogt at pressenter.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 9:58 AM
Subject: [Faith-talk] Here's a Possibility


> People do not agree but because they do not agree doesn't make them
totally wrong.
> 
> As I understand it, the Communities of Faith was supposed to be a forum
for people of all religions.  But what happened when that lady first was on
this list who confessed to being a Catholic lesbian?  Everybody that thought
they are James Dobson's secret identity ran her off this list and not in
charge of it.
> 
> How do you think Jesus is going to settle people's hearts when we get to
heaven "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye?
> 
> The voters have spoken.  In this country it is time for a change.  When
the African-American Gospel stations play, "A Change is Gonna Come" by Sam
Cook like it was the latest Gospel song, that ought to tell people
something.
> 
> A lot of e-mail I got was down-right phobic racism and there's no two ways
of looking at that.  Obama thanked McCane for a good fight and for being
gracious in his acceptance speech.
> 
> But here on this list, I find everybody has their own select Bible reading
and that is it.  You know where I was reading this morning?  2 Kings 6 where
there was a famine in the land of Israel.  The Prophet of God said basically
that within the next 24 hours, there would be low prices on badly needed
food, just to paraphrase.  It made me thinkof Rev. where it says very
plainly that "The fearful and unbelieving God will judge."  Perfect love
casts out all fear also is another Scripture.
> 
> Some one in the crowd of Israelites didn't believe the prophecy and
> the Prophet of God that the unbeliever would see it with his own eyes, but
would not be a part of it.  That man was trampled to death.
> 
> Phobia isn't going to get you anywhere these next four years, and neither
is being a sore loser.  People who were leaders in the Democrat party that
had their phone conversations illegally listened in on in the past four
years at least learned that much.
> 
> Maybe now we will have some dialog that isn't just 100% "my way or the
highway Bible thumping.  Zero tolerance didn't win the election for you
because your lack of love and a few other things were showing.  Learn from
it.
> 
> 
> "Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human
soul," American Humorist Mark Twain
> 
> "An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth Jernigan,
Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind
> 
> "A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their
contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
> 
> "Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
> 
> "No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push,
1976.
> 
> "With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can be
reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic," the Late Dr.
Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation of the Blind.
> 
> Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Faith-talk:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.r
r.com


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----



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Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1770 - Release Date: 11/5/2008
5:36 PM


_______________________________________________
Faith-talk mailing list
Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Faith-talk:
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et


__________ NOD32 3592 (20081106) Information __________

This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
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From mentink at frontiernet.net  Sat Nov  8 03:16:59 2008
From: mentink at frontiernet.net (Linda Mentink)
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2008 21:16:59 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] hi all -- a question
In-Reply-To: <73F15B03471B4C0F865E541C11F13EE1@bassclef>
References: <73F15B03471B4C0F865E541C11F13EE1@bassclef>
Message-ID: <20081108031716.3A6261A03DD@relay03.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>

Hi Laura,

Welcome back!

Do you know the children?  If not, you might help them to understand 
blindness a little, and impress on them the importance of 
attentiveness and participation.  And pray like you've never prayed 
before, for the children and for you, that you will have grace to 
deal with them as God would enable you.

I teach music to sighted children, but the teachers are in the room 
with me until they reach 7th grade.  Penny and I tell the kids that 
we're friends with their parents, and that cuts down on a lot of 
potential discipline problems.  Have fun!!

Blessings,

Linda

At 08:01 PM 11/7/2008, you wrote:
>Greetings all --
>I hope all are doing well.
>I have not been subscribed to this list for a long time but wanted to join
>now as I have just gotten a new assignment as a sunday school teacher to 12
>and 13 year old children.
>I was just wondering if anyone has had experience teaching a class of
>youngsters without sight. (The kids are sighted.)
>I am not looking for help with the content of the lessons as that is mapped
>out in the lesson manual, and every church has slightly different beliefs --
>but I am looking for any helpful suggestions on managing a class of
>children. The person who gave me the assignment suggested I designate a
>class president from among the class members to help me with visual aids,
>calling on people, etc. I am going to take this advice, but I am still quite
>daunted at the thought of teaching this class.
>So if anyone has any advice, please feel free to share.
>There are usually between 8 and 12 children in attendance each Sunday, which
>is a lot of kids to keep interested.
>But I am looking forward to the challenge.
>Thanks in advance and have a great weekend.
>--le
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Faith-talk mailing list
>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>for Faith-talk:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net





From rjs059 at peoplepc.com  Sat Nov  8 03:22:11 2008
From: rjs059 at peoplepc.com (rjs059 at peoplepc.com)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 22:22:11 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] hi all -- a question
References: <73F15B03471B4C0F865E541C11F13EE1@bassclef>
Message-ID: <002101c94151$31561010$2e80fe04@rjige047kjawst>

I just teach from the heart. I personally do not use vision aids, unless it 
is necessary. I've taught both adults and children, and their is nothing 
daunting about if you have some in the room with you whom you can trust. 
Prefurabley another adult. Again, this is my own experience, in the southren 
baptist.Hope this helps RJ
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "tribble" <lauraeaves at yahoo.com>
To: <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 9:01 PM
Subject: [Faith-talk] hi all -- a question


> Greetings all --
> I hope all are doing well.
> I have not been subscribed to this list for a long time but wanted to join
> now as I have just gotten a new assignment as a sunday school teacher to 
> 12
> and 13 year old children.
> I was just wondering if anyone has had experience teaching a class of
> youngsters without sight. (The kids are sighted.)
> I am not looking for help with the content of the lessons as that is 
> mapped
> out in the lesson manual, and every church has slightly different 
> beliefs --
> but I am looking for any helpful suggestions on managing a class of
> children. The person who gave me the assignment suggested I designate a
> class president from among the class members to help me with visual aids,
> calling on people, etc. I am going to take this advice, but I am still 
> quite
> daunted at the thought of teaching this class.
> So if anyone has any advice, please feel free to share.
> There are usually between 8 and 12 children in attendance each Sunday, 
> which
> is a lot of kids to keep interested.
> But I am looking forward to the challenge.
> Thanks in advance and have a great weekend.
> --le
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/rjs059%40peoplepc.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Internal Virus Database is out of date.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.8.5/1757 - Release Date: 10/30/2008 
2:35 PM




From rjs059 at peoplepc.com  Sat Nov  8 03:53:31 2008
From: rjs059 at peoplepc.com (rjs059 at peoplepc.com)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 22:53:31 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Here's a Possibility
References: <83F3120A61F047839F03A237ED27F7A0@your4dacd0ea75><BFD6393AC86C441092A377377AAB5538@Alan>
	<000001c94149$fd79b640$ef956f44@windows6996273>
Message-ID: <001701c94155$91a958b0$2e80fe04@rjige047kjawst>

The fact is You eiter believe the intire bible as being the Inspired word of 
God, or you don't believe any of it. Their is h no middle ground.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth Kats" <bethkats at cox.net>
To: "'Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion'" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 9:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Here's a Possibility


> Allen,
> I like the Bible verses at the end of your messages!  The passage in 
> Romans,
> "There is therefore no concemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 
> That
> is inspiring!  I like John 3-16.  I hope that the false accusations can 
> stop
> and we can be good Christian examples to each other on this list.
> Beth
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On Behalf Of Alan Wheeler
> Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 10:30 AM
> To: Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Here's a Possibility
>
> What is the point of this message?  I don't remember anyone being run off
> this list.  I also wouldn't call the Christians on this list "bible
> thumpers" as that is an unfair and biased generalization.
>
>
> +-+-+-
>
>   There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,
> who don't walk according to the flesh,
> but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1
> ~~~
>
> Alan D Wheeler
> awheeler at neb.rr.com
> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
> Skype: redwheel1
> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
> www.theqonline.net
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Julie C. Vogt" <jcvogt at pressenter.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 9:58 AM
> Subject: [Faith-talk] Here's a Possibility
>
>
>> People do not agree but because they do not agree doesn't make them
> totally wrong.
>>
>> As I understand it, the Communities of Faith was supposed to be a forum
> for people of all religions.  But what happened when that lady first was 
> on
> this list who confessed to being a Catholic lesbian?  Everybody that 
> thought
> they are James Dobson's secret identity ran her off this list and not in
> charge of it.
>>
>> How do you think Jesus is going to settle people's hearts when we get to
> heaven "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye?
>>
>> The voters have spoken.  In this country it is time for a change.  When
> the African-American Gospel stations play, "A Change is Gonna Come" by Sam
> Cook like it was the latest Gospel song, that ought to tell people
> something.
>>
>> A lot of e-mail I got was down-right phobic racism and there's no two 
>> ways
> of looking at that.  Obama thanked McCane for a good fight and for being
> gracious in his acceptance speech.
>>
>> But here on this list, I find everybody has their own select Bible 
>> reading
> and that is it.  You know where I was reading this morning?  2 Kings 6 
> where
> there was a famine in the land of Israel.  The Prophet of God said 
> basically
> that within the next 24 hours, there would be low prices on badly needed
> food, just to paraphrase.  It made me thinkof Rev. where it says very
> plainly that "The fearful and unbelieving God will judge."  Perfect love
> casts out all fear also is another Scripture.
>>
>> Some one in the crowd of Israelites didn't believe the prophecy and
>> the Prophet of God that the unbeliever would see it with his own eyes, 
>> but
> would not be a part of it.  That man was trampled to death.
>>
>> Phobia isn't going to get you anywhere these next four years, and neither
> is being a sore loser.  People who were leaders in the Democrat party that
> had their phone conversations illegally listened in on in the past four
> years at least learned that much.
>>
>> Maybe now we will have some dialog that isn't just 100% "my way or the
> highway Bible thumping.  Zero tolerance didn't win the election for you
> because your lack of love and a few other things were showing.  Learn from
> it.
>>
>>
>> "Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human
> soul," American Humorist Mark Twain
>>
>> "An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth Jernigan,
> Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind
>>
>> "A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their
> contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
>>
>> "Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>>
>> "No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push,
> 1976.
>>
>> "With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can be
> reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic," the Late 
> Dr.
> Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation of the Blind.
>>
>> Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.r
> r.com
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1770 - Release Date: 11/5/2008
> 5:36 PM
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/bethkats%40cox.n
> et
>
>
> __________ NOD32 3592 (20081106) Information __________
>
> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/rjs059%40peoplepc.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Internal Virus Database is out of date.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.8.5/1757 - Release Date: 10/30/2008 
2:35 PM




From goldpen at frontiernet.net  Sat Nov  8 04:43:43 2008
From: goldpen at frontiernet.net (Penny Golden)
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2008 22:43:43 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Prayer request.
In-Reply-To: <E7F54921BEC84111B0DEE68DE914AB62@Alan>
References: <89E8BFF71EDA4292B4D013B580AE3513@Alan>
	<20081107141208.4782DACB42@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
	<E7F54921BEC84111B0DEE68DE914AB62@Alan>
Message-ID: <20081108044341.19B691A01C9@relay03.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>

Try not to make those files smaller than 32 kbps, will you?  if you 
can possibly send the program as an attachment; we can put it onto 
our victor streams and hear it.
What a prize.
The Lord bless you and the workd to the salvation of souls and the 
edification of God's people,
Penny
At 07:52 PM 11/7/2008, you wrote:
>Penny,
>It will be on a station in Iowa, and they hope to have the feed on 
>the internet.  Give me some time to catch up on e-mail and sleep and 
>I'll send you copies of the files for the first two broadcasts I put together.
>
>
>+-+-+-
>
>    Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD.
>  Deuteronomy 6:4
>~~~
>
>Alan D Wheeler
>awheeler at neb.rr.com
>IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>Skype: redwheel1
>Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at 
>www.theqonline.net
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Penny Golden" <goldpen at frontiernet.net>
>To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
><faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 8:12 AM
>Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Prayer request.
>
>
> > Praying, allan. I'd love to hear the broadcast sometime.
> > Penny
> > At 07:15 AM 11/7/2008, you wrote:
> >>Hi folks,
> >>Today I am traveling with my pastor for a meeting with some people
> >>who are going to facilitate our services being on their radio station(s).
> >>
> >>Naturally, since the trip is over an hour, I pray for safe
> >>travel/traveling mercies, and I also pray that God bless this meeting.
> >>
> >>I should note, and not out of a sense of boasting, that I am going
> >>to this meeting as I edited the sermons into two installments and
> >>made it sound like an actual radio ministry show, doing actual
> >>narrating as well as editing.  I mention that so as to ask for
> >>continued prayer as I continue to do this work for my church.
> >>
> >>Alan
> >>
> >>
> >>+-+-+-
> >>
> >>    Don't be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the
> >> renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what
> >>is the good, well-pleasing, and perfect will of God. Romans 12:2
> >>~~~
> >>
> >>Alan D Wheeler
> >>awheeler at neb.rr.com
> >>IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
> >>Skype: redwheel1
> >>Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
> >>www.theqonline.net
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>Faith-talk mailing list
> >>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> >>for Faith-talk:
> >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/goldpe 
> n%40frontiernet.net
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Faith-talk mailing list
> > Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
> for Faith-talk:
> > 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1774 - Release Date: 
>11/7/2008 7:58 PM
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Faith-talk mailing list
>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>for Faith-talk:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/goldpen%40frontiernet.net





From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Sat Nov  8 07:59:30 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 01:59:30 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Here's a Possibility
References: <83F3120A61F047839F03A237ED27F7A0@your4dacd0ea75><BFD6393AC86C441092A377377AAB5538@Alan>
	<000001c94149$fd79b640$ef956f44@windows6996273>
Message-ID: <5828F33B88F0437497DF6AD12DBA1F19@Alan>

Beth,
Thanks for the compliment/comment on the tags.  I am glad they are used by God to encourage you.

On my ride with my pastor, he talked about how the art of true discipleship is lost in the majority of American Christian churches.  I can see what he means.  The pastors today aren't acting like a disciple who comes alongside his flock and teaches and encourages as much as they are the CEO of a company.  The CEO analogy is mine, not my pastor's.


+-+-+-

   There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. 
 1 Samuel 2:2
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth Kats" <bethkats at cox.net>
To: "'Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion'" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 8:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Here's a Possibility


> Allen,
> I like the Bible verses at the end of your messages!  The passage in Romans,
> "There is therefore no concemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.  That
> is inspiring!  I like John 3-16.  I hope that the false accusations can stop
> and we can be good Christian examples to each other on this list.
> Beth
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On Behalf Of Alan Wheeler
> Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 10:30 AM
> To: Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Here's a Possibility
> 
> What is the point of this message?  I don't remember anyone being run off
> this list.  I also wouldn't call the Christians on this list "bible
> thumpers" as that is an unfair and biased generalization.
> 
> 
> +-+-+-
> 
>   There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,
> who don't walk according to the flesh,  
> but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1
> ~~~
> 
> Alan D Wheeler
> awheeler at neb.rr.com
> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
> Skype: redwheel1
> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
> www.theqonline.net
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Julie C. Vogt" <jcvogt at pressenter.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 9:58 AM
> Subject: [Faith-talk] Here's a Possibility
> 
> 
>> People do not agree but because they do not agree doesn't make them
> totally wrong.
>> 
>> As I understand it, the Communities of Faith was supposed to be a forum
> for people of all religions.  But what happened when that lady first was on
> this list who confessed to being a Catholic lesbian?  Everybody that thought
> they are James Dobson's secret identity ran her off this list and not in
> charge of it.
>> 
>> How do you think Jesus is going to settle people's hearts when we get to
> heaven "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye?
>> 
>> The voters have spoken.  In this country it is time for a change.  When
> the African-American Gospel stations play, "A Change is Gonna Come" by Sam
> Cook like it was the latest Gospel song, that ought to tell people
> something.
>> 
>> A lot of e-mail I got was down-right phobic racism and there's no two ways
> of looking at that.  Obama thanked McCane for a good fight and for being
> gracious in his acceptance speech.
>> 
>> But here on this list, I find everybody has their own select Bible reading
> and that is it.  You know where I was reading this morning?  2 Kings 6 where
> there was a famine in the land of Israel.  The Prophet of God said basically
> that within the next 24 hours, there would be low prices on badly needed
> food, just to paraphrase.  It made me thinkof Rev. where it says very
> plainly that "The fearful and unbelieving God will judge."  Perfect love
> casts out all fear also is another Scripture.
>> 
>> Some one in the crowd of Israelites didn't believe the prophecy and
>> the Prophet of God that the unbeliever would see it with his own eyes, but
> would not be a part of it.  That man was trampled to death.
>> 
>> Phobia isn't going to get you anywhere these next four years, and neither
> is being a sore loser.  People who were leaders in the Democrat party that
> had their phone conversations illegally listened in on in the past four
> years at least learned that much.
>> 
>> Maybe now we will have some dialog that isn't just 100% "my way or the
> highway Bible thumping.  Zero tolerance didn't win the election for you
> because your lack of love and a few other things were showing.  Learn from
> it.
>> 
>> 
>> "Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human
> soul," American Humorist Mark Twain
>> 
>> "An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth Jernigan,
> Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind
>> 
>> "A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their
> contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
>> 
>> "Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>> 
>> "No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push,
> 1976.
>> 
>> "With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can be
> reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic," the Late Dr.
> Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation of the Blind.
>> 
>> Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.r
> r.com
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
> 
> 
> 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1770 - Release Date: 11/5/2008
> 5:36 PM
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/bethkats%40cox.n
> et
> 
> 
> __________ NOD32 3592 (20081106) Information __________
> 
> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
> http://www.eset.com
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1774 - Release Date: 11/7/2008 7:58 PM




From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Sat Nov  8 08:09:15 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 02:09:15 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Prayer request.
References: <89E8BFF71EDA4292B4D013B580AE3513@Alan><20081107141208.4782DACB42@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net><E7F54921BEC84111B0DEE68DE914AB62@Alan>
	<20081108044341.19B691A01C9@relay03.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
Message-ID: <0F57CE09C84C4EC59805BBE5528D6A96@Alan>

Penny,
I don't think the NFB lists accept attachments.  Therefore, maybe what I can do is upload the files to my send space account and send the links to the list?


+-+-+-

   The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an 
 habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him. 
 Exodus 15:2
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Penny Golden" <goldpen at frontiernet.net>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 10:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Prayer request.


> Try not to make those files smaller than 32 kbps, will you?  if you 
> can possibly send the program as an attachment; we can put it onto 
> our victor streams and hear it.
> What a prize.
> The Lord bless you and the workd to the salvation of souls and the 
> edification of God's people,
> Penny
> At 07:52 PM 11/7/2008, you wrote:
>>Penny,
>>It will be on a station in Iowa, and they hope to have the feed on 
>>the internet.  Give me some time to catch up on e-mail and sleep and 
>>I'll send you copies of the files for the first two broadcasts I put together.
>>
>>
>>+-+-+-
>>
>>    Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD.
>>  Deuteronomy 6:4
>>~~~
>>
>>Alan D Wheeler
>>awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>Skype: redwheel1
>>Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at 
>>www.theqonline.net
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Penny Golden" <goldpen at frontiernet.net>
>>To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
>><faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 8:12 AM
>>Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Prayer request.
>>
>>
>> > Praying, allan. I'd love to hear the broadcast sometime.
>> > Penny
>> > At 07:15 AM 11/7/2008, you wrote:
>> >>Hi folks,
>> >>Today I am traveling with my pastor for a meeting with some people
>> >>who are going to facilitate our services being on their radio station(s).
>> >>
>> >>Naturally, since the trip is over an hour, I pray for safe
>> >>travel/traveling mercies, and I also pray that God bless this meeting.
>> >>
>> >>I should note, and not out of a sense of boasting, that I am going
>> >>to this meeting as I edited the sermons into two installments and
>> >>made it sound like an actual radio ministry show, doing actual
>> >>narrating as well as editing.  I mention that so as to ask for
>> >>continued prayer as I continue to do this work for my church.
>> >>
>> >>Alan
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>+-+-+-
>> >>
>> >>    Don't be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the
>> >> renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what
>> >>is the good, well-pleasing, and perfect will of God. Romans 12:2
>> >>~~~
>> >>
>> >>Alan D Wheeler
>> >>awheeler at neb.rr.com
>> >>IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>> >>Skype: redwheel1
>> >>Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>> >>www.theqonline.net
>> >>_______________________________________________
>> >>Faith-talk mailing list
>> >>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> >>for Faith-talk:
>> >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/goldpe 
>> n%40frontiernet.net
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Faith-talk mailing list
>> > Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>> for Faith-talk:
>> > 
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>
>>
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1774 - Release Date: 
>>11/7/2008 7:58 PM
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Faith-talk mailing list
>>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>for Faith-talk:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/goldpen%40frontiernet.net
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1774 - Release Date: 11/7/2008 7:58 PM




From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Sat Nov  8 11:04:45 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 05:04:45 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Here's a Possibility
References: <83F3120A61F047839F03A237ED27F7A0@your4dacd0ea75><BFD6393AC86C441092A377377AAB5538@Alan><000001c94149$fd79b640$ef956f44@windows6996273>
	<001701c94155$91a958b0$2e80fe04@rjige047kjawst>
Message-ID: <8740F51C8079448589A151DC1C8A707D@your4dacd0ea75>

I agree with you.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <rjs059 at peoplepc.com>
To: <bethkats at cox.net>; "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and 
religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 9:53 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Here's a Possibility


> The fact is You eiter believe the intire bible as being the Inspired word 
> of
> God, or you don't believe any of it. Their is h no middle ground.
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Beth Kats" <bethkats at cox.net>
> To: "'Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion'"
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 9:30 PM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Here's a Possibility
>
>
>> Allen,
>> I like the Bible verses at the end of your messages!  The passage in
>> Romans,
>> "There is therefore no concemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
>> That
>> is inspiring!  I like John 3-16.  I hope that the false accusations can
>> stop
>> and we can be good Christian examples to each other on this list.
>> Beth
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org 
>> [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> On Behalf Of Alan Wheeler
>> Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 10:30 AM
>> To: Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Here's a Possibility
>>
>> What is the point of this message?  I don't remember anyone being run off
>> this list.  I also wouldn't call the Christians on this list "bible
>> thumpers" as that is an unfair and biased generalization.
>>
>>
>> +-+-+-
>>
>>   There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ 
>> Jesus,
>> who don't walk according to the flesh,
>> but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1
>> ~~~
>>
>> Alan D Wheeler
>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>> Skype: redwheel1
>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>> www.theqonline.net
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Julie C. Vogt" <jcvogt at pressenter.com>
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 9:58 AM
>> Subject: [Faith-talk] Here's a Possibility
>>
>>
>>> People do not agree but because they do not agree doesn't make them
>> totally wrong.
>>>
>>> As I understand it, the Communities of Faith was supposed to be a forum
>> for people of all religions.  But what happened when that lady first was
>> on
>> this list who confessed to being a Catholic lesbian?  Everybody that
>> thought
>> they are James Dobson's secret identity ran her off this list and not in
>> charge of it.
>>>
>>> How do you think Jesus is going to settle people's hearts when we get to
>> heaven "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye?
>>>
>>> The voters have spoken.  In this country it is time for a change.  When
>> the African-American Gospel stations play, "A Change is Gonna Come" by 
>> Sam
>> Cook like it was the latest Gospel song, that ought to tell people
>> something.
>>>
>>> A lot of e-mail I got was down-right phobic racism and there's no two
>>> ways
>> of looking at that.  Obama thanked McCane for a good fight and for being
>> gracious in his acceptance speech.
>>>
>>> But here on this list, I find everybody has their own select Bible
>>> reading
>> and that is it.  You know where I was reading this morning?  2 Kings 6
>> where
>> there was a famine in the land of Israel.  The Prophet of God said
>> basically
>> that within the next 24 hours, there would be low prices on badly needed
>> food, just to paraphrase.  It made me thinkof Rev. where it says very
>> plainly that "The fearful and unbelieving God will judge."  Perfect love
>> casts out all fear also is another Scripture.
>>>
>>> Some one in the crowd of Israelites didn't believe the prophecy and
>>> the Prophet of God that the unbeliever would see it with his own eyes,
>>> but
>> would not be a part of it.  That man was trampled to death.
>>>
>>> Phobia isn't going to get you anywhere these next four years, and 
>>> neither
>> is being a sore loser.  People who were leaders in the Democrat party 
>> that
>> had their phone conversations illegally listened in on in the past four
>> years at least learned that much.
>>>
>>> Maybe now we will have some dialog that isn't just 100% "my way or the
>> highway Bible thumping.  Zero tolerance didn't win the election for you
>> because your lack of love and a few other things were showing.  Learn 
>> from
>> it.
>>>
>>>
>>> "Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human
>> soul," American Humorist Mark Twain
>>>
>>> "An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth 
>>> Jernigan,
>> Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind
>>>
>>> "A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their
>> contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
>>>
>>> "Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>>>
>>> "No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push,
>> 1976.
>>>
>>> "With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can be
>> reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic," the Late
>> Dr.
>> Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation of the Blind.
>>>
>>> Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.r
>> r.com
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ----
>>
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1770 - Release Date: 11/5/2008
>> 5:36 PM
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/bethkats%40cox.n
>> et
>>
>>
>> __________ NOD32 3592 (20081106) Information __________
>>
>> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
>> http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/rjs059%40peoplepc.com
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> Internal Virus Database is out of date.
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.8.5/1757 - Release Date: 10/30/2008
> 2:35 PM
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1774 - Release Date: 11/7/2008 
7:58 PM




From sslucki at chariot.net.au  Sat Nov  8 12:12:29 2008
From: sslucki at chariot.net.au (Stefan Slucki)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 22:42:29 +1030
Subject: [Faith-talk] hi all -- a question
References: <73F15B03471B4C0F865E541C11F13EE1@bassclef>
Message-ID: <D8F61B417503405FB48E04B2A9587FF4@stefan706c912c>

Hi "Le",

I guess it'd help to know if the students want to be there -- I've had 
experiences where classes didn't and then again classes which did.

There's no use in taking the "could you help me so we can all get the most 
out of this time together" approach if they're not with you!

Also, is the lesson material clearly presented for you to teach from the 
manual?  Some curriculum is a bit bookish and that can add to 
class-management difficulties -- not to do with you.

If there are puzzles, crosswords and such this could help student 
concentration but be a barrier you need to be conscious of.

Having a "president" is a great idea!  As a totally blind person I'd never 
enter a classroom full of sighted students without a sympathetic pair of 
eyes pulling for me.  You will contact the student, beforehand, to ask for 
their help, yes?

Further, how's your hearing?  Perhaps asking them to sit in the same place 
and have a roll-call at the start of the class could help orient you to 
their voices.

Just a few introductory thoughts.




From goldpen at frontiernet.net  Sat Nov  8 18:56:48 2008
From: goldpen at frontiernet.net (Penny Golden)
Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2008 12:56:48 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Prayer request.
In-Reply-To: <0F57CE09C84C4EC59805BBE5528D6A96@Alan>
References: <89E8BFF71EDA4292B4D013B580AE3513@Alan>
	<20081107141208.4782DACB42@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
	<E7F54921BEC84111B0DEE68DE914AB62@Alan>
	<20081108044341.19B691A01C9@relay03.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
	<0F57CE09C84C4EC59805BBE5528D6A96@Alan>
Message-ID: <20081108185644.EEEFCCCB43@relay04.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>

Hi, Allan,
I had intended for you to maybe send the  file to me privately.
Suit yourself. I am having trouble with send-space; don't exactly 
know just why.
Blessings,
Penny
goldpen at frontiernet.net
         At 02:09 AM 11/8/2008, you wrote:
>Penny,
>I don't think the NFB lists accept attachments.  Therefore, maybe 
>what I can do is upload the files to my send space account and send 
>the links to the list?
>
>
>+-+-+-
>
>    The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: 
> he is my God, and I will prepare him an
>  habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.
>  Exodus 15:2
>~~~
>
>Alan D Wheeler
>awheeler at neb.rr.com
>IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>Skype: redwheel1
>Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at 
>www.theqonline.net
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Penny Golden" <goldpen at frontiernet.net>
>To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
><faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 10:43 PM
>Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Prayer request.
>
>
> > Try not to make those files smaller than 32 kbps, will you?  if you
> > can possibly send the program as an attachment; we can put it onto
> > our victor streams and hear it.
> > What a prize.
> > The Lord bless you and the workd to the salvation of souls and the
> > edification of God's people,
> > Penny
> > At 07:52 PM 11/7/2008, you wrote:
> >>Penny,
> >>It will be on a station in Iowa, and they hope to have the feed on
> >>the internet.  Give me some time to catch up on e-mail and sleep and
> >>I'll send you copies of the files for the first two broadcasts I 
> put together.
> >>
> >>
> >>+-+-+-
> >>
> >>    Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD.
> >>  Deuteronomy 6:4
> >>~~~
> >>
> >>Alan D Wheeler
> >>awheeler at neb.rr.com
> >>IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
> >>Skype: redwheel1
> >>Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
> >>www.theqonline.net
> >>
> >>----- Original Message -----
> >>From: "Penny Golden" <goldpen at frontiernet.net>
> >>To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
> >><faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> >>Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 8:12 AM
> >>Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Prayer request.
> >>
> >>
> >> > Praying, allan. I'd love to hear the broadcast sometime.
> >> > Penny
> >> > At 07:15 AM 11/7/2008, you wrote:
> >> >>Hi folks,
> >> >>Today I am traveling with my pastor for a meeting with some people
> >> >>who are going to facilitate our services being on their radio 
> station(s).
> >> >>
> >> >>Naturally, since the trip is over an hour, I pray for safe
> >> >>travel/traveling mercies, and I also pray that God bless this meeting.
> >> >>
> >> >>I should note, and not out of a sense of boasting, that I am going
> >> >>to this meeting as I edited the sermons into two installments and
> >> >>made it sound like an actual radio ministry show, doing actual
> >> >>narrating as well as editing.  I mention that so as to ask for
> >> >>continued prayer as I continue to do this work for my church.
> >> >>
> >> >>Alan
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>+-+-+-
> >> >>
> >> >>    Don't be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the
> >> >> renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what
> >> >>is the good, well-pleasing, and perfect will of God. Romans 12:2
> >> >>~~~
> >> >>
> >> >>Alan D Wheeler
> >> >>awheeler at neb.rr.com
> >> >>IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
> >> >>Skype: redwheel1
> >> >>Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
> >> >>www.theqonline.net
> >> >>_______________________________________________
> >> >>Faith-talk mailing list
> >> >>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> >> >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> >> >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> >> >>for Faith-talk:
> >> >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/goldpe
> >> n%40frontiernet.net
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Faith-talk mailing list
> >> > Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> >> for Faith-talk:
> >> >
> >> 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
> >>
> >>
> >>------------------------------------------------------------------ 
> --------------
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>No virus found in this incoming message.
> >>Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> >>Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1774 - Release Date:
> >>11/7/2008 7:58 PM
> >>
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>Faith-talk mailing list
> >>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> >>for Faith-talk:
> >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/goldpe 
> n%40frontiernet.net
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Faith-talk mailing list
> > Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
> for Faith-talk:
> > 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1774 - Release Date: 
>11/7/2008 7:58 PM
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Faith-talk mailing list
>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>for Faith-talk:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/goldpen%40frontiernet.net





From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Sat Nov  8 20:48:46 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 14:48:46 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Prayer request.
References: <89E8BFF71EDA4292B4D013B580AE3513@Alan><20081107141208.4782DACB42@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net><E7F54921BEC84111B0DEE68DE914AB62@Alan><20081108044341.19B691A01C9@relay03.roch.ny.frontiernet.net><0F57CE09C84C4EC59805BBE5528D6A96@Alan>
	<20081108185644.EEEFCCCB43@relay04.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
Message-ID: <DADE107BA1F949158DBF288F3A9D6BA6@Alan>

Penny,
That's understandable.  Let me see what I can do.  I suspect the file is on the large side.  I also want to talk to my pastor before I go sending it to folks.


+-+-+-

   My voice shalt thou hear in the morning, O LORD; in the morning will I direct my prayer unto thee, and will look 
 up. Psalms 5:3
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Penny Golden" <goldpen at frontiernet.net>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2008 12:56 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Prayer request.


> Hi, Allan,
> I had intended for you to maybe send the  file to me privately.
> Suit yourself. I am having trouble with send-space; don't exactly 
> know just why.
> Blessings,
> Penny
> goldpen at frontiernet.net
>         At 02:09 AM 11/8/2008, you wrote:
>>Penny,
>>I don't think the NFB lists accept attachments.  Therefore, maybe 
>>what I can do is upload the files to my send space account and send 
>>the links to the list?
>>
>>
>>+-+-+-
>>
>>    The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: 
>> he is my God, and I will prepare him an
>>  habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.
>>  Exodus 15:2
>>~~~
>>
>>Alan D Wheeler
>>awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>Skype: redwheel1
>>Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at 
>>www.theqonline.net
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Penny Golden" <goldpen at frontiernet.net>
>>To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
>><faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 10:43 PM
>>Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Prayer request.
>>
>>
>> > Try not to make those files smaller than 32 kbps, will you?  if you
>> > can possibly send the program as an attachment; we can put it onto
>> > our victor streams and hear it.
>> > What a prize.
>> > The Lord bless you and the workd to the salvation of souls and the
>> > edification of God's people,
>> > Penny
>> > At 07:52 PM 11/7/2008, you wrote:
>> >>Penny,
>> >>It will be on a station in Iowa, and they hope to have the feed on
>> >>the internet.  Give me some time to catch up on e-mail and sleep and
>> >>I'll send you copies of the files for the first two broadcasts I 
>> put together.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>+-+-+-
>> >>
>> >>    Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD.
>> >>  Deuteronomy 6:4
>> >>~~~
>> >>
>> >>Alan D Wheeler
>> >>awheeler at neb.rr.com
>> >>IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>> >>Skype: redwheel1
>> >>Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>> >>www.theqonline.net
>> >>
>> >>----- Original Message -----
>> >>From: "Penny Golden" <goldpen at frontiernet.net>
>> >>To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>> >><faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> >>Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 8:12 AM
>> >>Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Prayer request.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > Praying, allan. I'd love to hear the broadcast sometime.
>> >> > Penny
>> >> > At 07:15 AM 11/7/2008, you wrote:
>> >> >>Hi folks,
>> >> >>Today I am traveling with my pastor for a meeting with some people
>> >> >>who are going to facilitate our services being on their radio 
>> station(s).
>> >> >>
>> >> >>Naturally, since the trip is over an hour, I pray for safe
>> >> >>travel/traveling mercies, and I also pray that God bless this meeting.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>I should note, and not out of a sense of boasting, that I am going
>> >> >>to this meeting as I edited the sermons into two installments and
>> >> >>made it sound like an actual radio ministry show, doing actual
>> >> >>narrating as well as editing.  I mention that so as to ask for
>> >> >>continued prayer as I continue to do this work for my church.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>Alan
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>+-+-+-
>> >> >>
>> >> >>    Don't be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the
>> >> >> renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what
>> >> >>is the good, well-pleasing, and perfect will of God. Romans 12:2
>> >> >>~~~
>> >> >>
>> >> >>Alan D Wheeler
>> >> >>awheeler at neb.rr.com
>> >> >>IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>> >> >>Skype: redwheel1
>> >> >>Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>> >> >>www.theqonline.net
>> >> >>_______________________________________________
>> >> >>Faith-talk mailing list
>> >> >>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >> >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> >> >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> >> >>for Faith-talk:
>> >> >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/goldpe
>> >> n%40frontiernet.net
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> > Faith-talk mailing list
>> >> > Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> >> for Faith-talk:
>> >> >
>> >> 
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>------------------------------------------------------------------ 
>> --------------
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>No virus found in this incoming message.
>> >>Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>> >>Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1774 - Release Date:
>> >>11/7/2008 7:58 PM
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>_______________________________________________
>> >>Faith-talk mailing list
>> >>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> >>for Faith-talk:
>> >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/goldpe 
>> n%40frontiernet.net
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Faith-talk mailing list
>> > Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>> for Faith-talk:
>> > 
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>
>>
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1774 - Release Date: 
>>11/7/2008 7:58 PM
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Faith-talk mailing list
>>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>for Faith-talk:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/goldpen%40frontiernet.net
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1775 - Release Date: 11/8/2008 9:56 AM




From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Sat Nov  8 21:33:16 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 15:33:16 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
Message-ID: <E9B0A7C28DD444F7ADC7CB300F67830F@your4dacd0ea75>

It happened by accident.  When you didn't stop attacking in my in-box--those of you who did it--people of other races by way of our new President-elect, I wrote what I wrote.  Now you know how false accusations hurt everybody.  Because of one man the African-American Church, and people who attend them, have been under tremendous attack ever since last March with no let-up.  Ever since I began attending and became saved in African-American churches in 1972, I've heard dirty, dirty comments like:  "they just do in their church what they did in the slave days."  In the slave days, African-Americans weren't permitted to know anything of the Bible but "Servants obey your masters in the Lord for this is right.

If people say what people have said about one another's churches ever since last March, referring to us as blind people, we'd be up in arms.  Let us all be more careful.

It hit me like a thunderbolt while I was playing piano at a senior citizens building today why you all were upset.  And as upset as you were last Thursday night, Linda, I was that upset one month ago when I read what you particularly sent me privately at 5:00 on a Sunday morning while  I was getting ready for church.  I'm sorry and maybe we can understand one another better now.

 has been 

"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul," American Humorist Mark Twain

"An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind

"A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV

"Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)

"No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push, 1976.

"With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic," the Late Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation of the Blind.

Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com 





From goldpen at frontiernet.net  Sat Nov  8 22:58:01 2008
From: goldpen at frontiernet.net (Penny Golden)
Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2008 16:58:01 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Prayer request.
In-Reply-To: <DADE107BA1F949158DBF288F3A9D6BA6@Alan>
References: <89E8BFF71EDA4292B4D013B580AE3513@Alan>
	<20081107141208.4782DACB42@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
	<E7F54921BEC84111B0DEE68DE914AB62@Alan>
	<20081108044341.19B691A01C9@relay03.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
	<0F57CE09C84C4EC59805BBE5528D6A96@Alan>
	<20081108185644.EEEFCCCB43@relay04.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
	<DADE107BA1F949158DBF288F3A9D6BA6@Alan>
Message-ID: <20081108225757.8A70BAC78C@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>

Allen, no problem.
Check awway and then report to all of us.
I would not want to listen to something that isn't cleared for take-off yet.





From mentink at frontiernet.net  Sun Nov  9 03:58:33 2008
From: mentink at frontiernet.net (Linda Mentink)
Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2008 21:58:33 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
In-Reply-To: <E9B0A7C28DD444F7ADC7CB300F67830F@your4dacd0ea75>
References: <E9B0A7C28DD444F7ADC7CB300F67830F@your4dacd0ea75>
Message-ID: <20081109035831.9E797AC853@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>

Hi Julie,

I'm sorry, too.  I'm not against our president elect because he's 
black.  Fact is, he's half black.  That's neither here nor 
there.  It's mainly because he's the most liberal of all in Congress, 
and I believe that a lot of our rights will be taken away once he is 
sworn in.  We'll see what happens, but I'm praying for him, and all 
the rest in authority over us.  I sent those things to you because I 
knew you wouldn't find out from the mainstream media.  But the 
election has made history, and God's people need to be more vigilent than ever.

Blessings,

Linda

At 03:33 PM 11/8/2008, you wrote:
>It happened by accident.  When you didn't stop attacking in my 
>in-box--those of you who did it--people of other races by way of our 
>new President-elect, I wrote what I wrote.  Now you know how false 
>accusations hurt everybody.  Because of one man the African-American 
>Church, and people who attend them, have been under tremendous 
>attack ever since last March with no let-up.  Ever since I began 
>attending and became saved in African-American churches in 1972, 
>I've heard dirty, dirty comments like:  "they just do in their 
>church what they did in the slave days."  In the slave days, 
>African-Americans weren't permitted to know anything of the Bible 
>but "Servants obey your masters in the Lord for this is right.
>
>If people say what people have said about one another's churches 
>ever since last March, referring to us as blind people, we'd be up 
>in arms.  Let us all be more careful.
>
>It hit me like a thunderbolt while I was playing piano at a senior 
>citizens building today why you all were upset.  And as upset as you 
>were last Thursday night, Linda, I was that upset one month ago when 
>I read what you particularly sent me privately at 5:00 on a Sunday 
>morning while  I was getting ready for church.  I'm sorry and maybe 
>we can understand one another better now.
>
>  has been
>
>"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a 
>human soul," American Humorist Mark Twain
>
>"An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth 
>Jernigan, Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind
>
>"A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and 
>their contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
>
>"Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>
>"No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push, 1976.
>
>"With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can 
>be reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic," 
>the Late Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation 
>of the Blind.
>
>Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Faith-talk mailing list
>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>for Faith-talk:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net





From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Sun Nov  9 13:29:56 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 08:29:56 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
In-Reply-To: <20081109035831.9E797AC853@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
References: <E9B0A7C28DD444F7ADC7CB300F67830F@your4dacd0ea75>
	<20081109035831.9E797AC853@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811090529o40db51do77b90bee606dc92b@mail.gmail.com>

I don't care if Obama's half-black.  God's people will come to
understand a few things:
1. Marriage, for example, is not between "one man and one woman".  It
is between two able parties, same o different sex, that are actually
willing to stay together.  Our high divorce rate of heterosexual
couples mostly is bad for our children herein America.
2. Abortion should never happen.  If it's something that has to do
with the mother's life and health, then that's the only exception.
But rape and birth control reasons are not good ones.
3. Blind people can and wwill have equal rights to vote, gain security
benefits, and so on.  Yes, Obama's the most liberal, but we need him.
Maybe he's a lot more Christian than Bush was.  But God's people must
not be against him.  I'm a Catholic, and I'm also a liberal as well.
Obama has also beat Kennedy by so many years.  ANything having to do
with race is out as far as I'm concerned.  Next, what will happen when
a woman is in the White House?  What about a blind woman? lol
Beth

On 11/8/08, Linda Mentink <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
> Hi Julie,
>
> I'm sorry, too.  I'm not against our president elect because he's
> black.  Fact is, he's half black.  That's neither here nor
> there.  It's mainly because he's the most liberal of all in Congress,
> and I believe that a lot of our rights will be taken away once he is
> sworn in.  We'll see what happens, but I'm praying for him, and all
> the rest in authority over us.  I sent those things to you because I
> knew you wouldn't find out from the mainstream media.  But the
> election has made history, and God's people need to be more vigilent than
> ever.
>
> Blessings,
>
> Linda
>
> At 03:33 PM 11/8/2008, you wrote:
>>It happened by accident.  When you didn't stop attacking in my
>>in-box--those of you who did it--people of other races by way of our
>>new President-elect, I wrote what I wrote.  Now you know how false
>>accusations hurt everybody.  Because of one man the African-American
>>Church, and people who attend them, have been under tremendous
>>attack ever since last March with no let-up.  Ever since I began
>>attending and became saved in African-American churches in 1972,
>>I've heard dirty, dirty comments like:  "they just do in their
>>church what they did in the slave days."  In the slave days,
>>African-Americans weren't permitted to know anything of the Bible
>>but "Servants obey your masters in the Lord for this is right.
>>
>>If people say what people have said about one another's churches
>>ever since last March, referring to us as blind people, we'd be up
>>in arms.  Let us all be more careful.
>>
>>It hit me like a thunderbolt while I was playing piano at a senior
>>citizens building today why you all were upset.  And as upset as you
>>were last Thursday night, Linda, I was that upset one month ago when
>>I read what you particularly sent me privately at 5:00 on a Sunday
>>morning while  I was getting ready for church.  I'm sorry and maybe
>>we can understand one another better now.
>>
>>  has been
>>
>>"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a
>>human soul," American Humorist Mark Twain
>>
>>"An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth
>>Jernigan, Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind
>>
>>"A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and
>>their contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
>>
>>"Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>>
>>"No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push, 1976.
>>
>>"With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can
>>be reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic,"
>>the Late Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation
>>of the Blind.
>>
>>Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Faith-talk mailing list
>>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>for Faith-talk:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>



From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Sun Nov  9 14:52:01 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 08:52:01 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
References: <E9B0A7C28DD444F7ADC7CB300F67830F@your4dacd0ea75><20081109035831.9E797AC853@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
	<4383d01d0811090529o40db51do77b90bee606dc92b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <34EE51212347460BBC336CEB5D414D5A@Alan>

Beth,
I gently disagree with you.  Marriage was designed by God to be between a man and a woman.  Don't take issue because I said it.  Study the Bible and if you still don't like it, then you have to take it up with God.  It was His idea to begin with, not man's.


+-+-+-

   The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an 
 habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him. 
 Exodus 15:2
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 7:29 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations


>I don't care if Obama's half-black.  God's people will come to
> understand a few things:
> 1. Marriage, for example, is not between "one man and one woman".  It
> is between two able parties, same o different sex, that are actually
> willing to stay together.  Our high divorce rate of heterosexual
> couples mostly is bad for our children herein America.
> 2. Abortion should never happen.  If it's something that has to do
> with the mother's life and health, then that's the only exception.
> But rape and birth control reasons are not good ones.
> 3. Blind people can and wwill have equal rights to vote, gain security
> benefits, and so on.  Yes, Obama's the most liberal, but we need him.
> Maybe he's a lot more Christian than Bush was.  But God's people must
> not be against him.  I'm a Catholic, and I'm also a liberal as well.
> Obama has also beat Kennedy by so many years.  ANything having to do
> with race is out as far as I'm concerned.  Next, what will happen when
> a woman is in the White House?  What about a blind woman? lol
> Beth
> 
> On 11/8/08, Linda Mentink <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
>> Hi Julie,
>>
>> I'm sorry, too.  I'm not against our president elect because he's
>> black.  Fact is, he's half black.  That's neither here nor
>> there.  It's mainly because he's the most liberal of all in Congress,
>> and I believe that a lot of our rights will be taken away once he is
>> sworn in.  We'll see what happens, but I'm praying for him, and all
>> the rest in authority over us.  I sent those things to you because I
>> knew you wouldn't find out from the mainstream media.  But the
>> election has made history, and God's people need to be more vigilent than
>> ever.
>>
>> Blessings,
>>
>> Linda
>>
>> At 03:33 PM 11/8/2008, you wrote:
>>>It happened by accident.  When you didn't stop attacking in my
>>>in-box--those of you who did it--people of other races by way of our
>>>new President-elect, I wrote what I wrote.  Now you know how false
>>>accusations hurt everybody.  Because of one man the African-American
>>>Church, and people who attend them, have been under tremendous
>>>attack ever since last March with no let-up.  Ever since I began
>>>attending and became saved in African-American churches in 1972,
>>>I've heard dirty, dirty comments like:  "they just do in their
>>>church what they did in the slave days."  In the slave days,
>>>African-Americans weren't permitted to know anything of the Bible
>>>but "Servants obey your masters in the Lord for this is right.
>>>
>>>If people say what people have said about one another's churches
>>>ever since last March, referring to us as blind people, we'd be up
>>>in arms.  Let us all be more careful.
>>>
>>>It hit me like a thunderbolt while I was playing piano at a senior
>>>citizens building today why you all were upset.  And as upset as you
>>>were last Thursday night, Linda, I was that upset one month ago when
>>>I read what you particularly sent me privately at 5:00 on a Sunday
>>>morning while  I was getting ready for church.  I'm sorry and maybe
>>>we can understand one another better now.
>>>
>>>  has been
>>>
>>>"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a
>>>human soul," American Humorist Mark Twain
>>>
>>>"An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth
>>>Jernigan, Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind
>>>
>>>"A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and
>>>their contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
>>>
>>>"Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>>>
>>>"No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push, 1976.
>>>
>>>"With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can
>>>be reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic,"
>>>the Late Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation
>>>of the Blind.
>>>
>>>Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Faith-talk mailing list
>>>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>for Faith-talk:
>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
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From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Sun Nov  9 14:53:30 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 08:53:30 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
References: <E9B0A7C28DD444F7ADC7CB300F67830F@your4dacd0ea75><20081109035831.9E797AC853@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
	<4383d01d0811090529o40db51do77b90bee606dc92b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0C39B2DF2916497B92D2A3BC2DA52BF7@your4dacd0ea75>

Beth, I've thought of that also about the blind woman part.

Here's the thing that's hanging me up about what's on the table about 
marriage.  They're trying to get into the bill that marriage should be for 
procreation reasons only.

Personally I found the love of my life as a senior citizen.  He is also 
close to my age.  What if all of a sudden, you're too old to get married 
because you're not procreative?  Some people who get married, whatever their 
age, because of their make-up, and most people know their make-up, shouldn't 
bring children into the mix.  I'm reminded of something that happened at a 
Democrat neighborhood caucus in the '80's in North Minneapolis when I lived 
there that sickened me for days, but I'm up against the clock to tell it. 
I'm trying to be ready for church in my mental state now because we are 
having "pot blessing" dinner today and I have a big kettle of chicken and 
dumplings and an equally big kettle of mashed potatoes that I have to think 
of transporting downstairs soon so I can catch a vehicle.  I'm on the fourth 
floor.  Fortunately I have help and we have grocery carts we can bring food 
down in.  The earlier you get up to be ready, the more you rush and the more 
there is unexpectedly to do.  But remind me because this is something even 
Democrats among us talked about for days afterwards.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 7:29 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations


>I don't care if Obama's half-black.  God's people will come to
> understand a few things:
> 1. Marriage, for example, is not between "one man and one woman".  It
> is between two able parties, same o different sex, that are actually
> willing to stay together.  Our high divorce rate of heterosexual
> couples mostly is bad for our children herein America.
> 2. Abortion should never happen.  If it's something that has to do
> with the mother's life and health, then that's the only exception.
> But rape and birth control reasons are not good ones.
> 3. Blind people can and wwill have equal rights to vote, gain security
> benefits, and so on.  Yes, Obama's the most liberal, but we need him.
> Maybe he's a lot more Christian than Bush was.  But God's people must
> not be against him.  I'm a Catholic, and I'm also a liberal as well.
> Obama has also beat Kennedy by so many years.  ANything having to do
> with race is out as far as I'm concerned.  Next, what will happen when
> a woman is in the White House?  What about a blind woman? lol
> Beth
>
> On 11/8/08, Linda Mentink <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
>> Hi Julie,
>>
>> I'm sorry, too.  I'm not against our president elect because he's
>> black.  Fact is, he's half black.  That's neither here nor
>> there.  It's mainly because he's the most liberal of all in Congress,
>> and I believe that a lot of our rights will be taken away once he is
>> sworn in.  We'll see what happens, but I'm praying for him, and all
>> the rest in authority over us.  I sent those things to you because I
>> knew you wouldn't find out from the mainstream media.  But the
>> election has made history, and God's people need to be more vigilent than
>> ever.
>>
>> Blessings,
>>
>> Linda
>>
>> At 03:33 PM 11/8/2008, you wrote:
>>>It happened by accident.  When you didn't stop attacking in my
>>>in-box--those of you who did it--people of other races by way of our
>>>new President-elect, I wrote what I wrote.  Now you know how false
>>>accusations hurt everybody.  Because of one man the African-American
>>>Church, and people who attend them, have been under tremendous
>>>attack ever since last March with no let-up.  Ever since I began
>>>attending and became saved in African-American churches in 1972,
>>>I've heard dirty, dirty comments like:  "they just do in their
>>>church what they did in the slave days."  In the slave days,
>>>African-Americans weren't permitted to know anything of the Bible
>>>but "Servants obey your masters in the Lord for this is right.
>>>
>>>If people say what people have said about one another's churches
>>>ever since last March, referring to us as blind people, we'd be up
>>>in arms.  Let us all be more careful.
>>>
>>>It hit me like a thunderbolt while I was playing piano at a senior
>>>citizens building today why you all were upset.  And as upset as you
>>>were last Thursday night, Linda, I was that upset one month ago when
>>>I read what you particularly sent me privately at 5:00 on a Sunday
>>>morning while  I was getting ready for church.  I'm sorry and maybe
>>>we can understand one another better now.
>>>
>>>  has been
>>>
>>>"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a
>>>human soul," American Humorist Mark Twain
>>>
>>>"An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth
>>>Jernigan, Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind
>>>
>>>"A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and
>>>their contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
>>>
>>>"Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>>>
>>>"No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push, 
>>>1976.
>>>
>>>"With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can
>>>be reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic,"
>>>the Late Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation
>>>of the Blind.
>>>
>>>Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Faith-talk mailing list
>>>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>for Faith-talk:
>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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9:53 AM




From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Sun Nov  9 16:44:39 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 11:44:39 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
In-Reply-To: <34EE51212347460BBC336CEB5D414D5A@Alan>
References: <E9B0A7C28DD444F7ADC7CB300F67830F@your4dacd0ea75>
	<20081109035831.9E797AC853@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
	<4383d01d0811090529o40db51do77b90bee606dc92b@mail.gmail.com>
	<34EE51212347460BBC336CEB5D414D5A@Alan>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811090844o4496c680xf7c1eb301ac76b6f@mail.gmail.com>

I would have toagree with Julie.  Marriage is about love, not
procreative reasons only.  I've known friends who've gotten married as
nonprocreative peoples.  Also, has anybody thought that marriage
should at least be for those that can participate in it as well?
Also, if we have bans on same-sex marriage, think of it this way: we
are forcing religion on the people, which God really doesn't want us
to do.  To be Christ-like is not to shove God down the throats of
those who don't know him, but to spread God's love to them, to let
them be free people.
Beth

On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
> Beth,
> I gently disagree with you.  Marriage was designed by God to be between a
> man and a woman.  Don't take issue because I said it.  Study the Bible and
> if you still don't like it, then you have to take it up with God.  It was
> His idea to begin with, not man's.
>
>
> +-+-+-
>
>    The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my
> God, and I will prepare him an
>  habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.
>  Exodus 15:2
> ~~~
>
> Alan D Wheeler
> awheeler at neb.rr.com
> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
> Skype: redwheel1
> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
> www.theqonline.net
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 7:29 AM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>
>
>>I don't care if Obama's half-black.  God's people will come to
>> understand a few things:
>> 1. Marriage, for example, is not between "one man and one woman".  It
>> is between two able parties, same o different sex, that are actually
>> willing to stay together.  Our high divorce rate of heterosexual
>> couples mostly is bad for our children herein America.
>> 2. Abortion should never happen.  If it's something that has to do
>> with the mother's life and health, then that's the only exception.
>> But rape and birth control reasons are not good ones.
>> 3. Blind people can and wwill have equal rights to vote, gain security
>> benefits, and so on.  Yes, Obama's the most liberal, but we need him.
>> Maybe he's a lot more Christian than Bush was.  But God's people must
>> not be against him.  I'm a Catholic, and I'm also a liberal as well.
>> Obama has also beat Kennedy by so many years.  ANything having to do
>> with race is out as far as I'm concerned.  Next, what will happen when
>> a woman is in the White House?  What about a blind woman? lol
>> Beth
>>
>> On 11/8/08, Linda Mentink <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
>>> Hi Julie,
>>>
>>> I'm sorry, too.  I'm not against our president elect because he's
>>> black.  Fact is, he's half black.  That's neither here nor
>>> there.  It's mainly because he's the most liberal of all in Congress,
>>> and I believe that a lot of our rights will be taken away once he is
>>> sworn in.  We'll see what happens, but I'm praying for him, and all
>>> the rest in authority over us.  I sent those things to you because I
>>> knew you wouldn't find out from the mainstream media.  But the
>>> election has made history, and God's people need to be more vigilent than
>>> ever.
>>>
>>> Blessings,
>>>
>>> Linda
>>>
>>> At 03:33 PM 11/8/2008, you wrote:
>>>>It happened by accident.  When you didn't stop attacking in my
>>>>in-box--those of you who did it--people of other races by way of our
>>>>new President-elect, I wrote what I wrote.  Now you know how false
>>>>accusations hurt everybody.  Because of one man the African-American
>>>>Church, and people who attend them, have been under tremendous
>>>>attack ever since last March with no let-up.  Ever since I began
>>>>attending and became saved in African-American churches in 1972,
>>>>I've heard dirty, dirty comments like:  "they just do in their
>>>>church what they did in the slave days."  In the slave days,
>>>>African-Americans weren't permitted to know anything of the Bible
>>>>but "Servants obey your masters in the Lord for this is right.
>>>>
>>>>If people say what people have said about one another's churches
>>>>ever since last March, referring to us as blind people, we'd be up
>>>>in arms.  Let us all be more careful.
>>>>
>>>>It hit me like a thunderbolt while I was playing piano at a senior
>>>>citizens building today why you all were upset.  And as upset as you
>>>>were last Thursday night, Linda, I was that upset one month ago when
>>>>I read what you particularly sent me privately at 5:00 on a Sunday
>>>>morning while  I was getting ready for church.  I'm sorry and maybe
>>>>we can understand one another better now.
>>>>
>>>>  has been
>>>>
>>>>"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a
>>>>human soul," American Humorist Mark Twain
>>>>
>>>>"An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth
>>>>Jernigan, Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind
>>>>
>>>>"A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and
>>>>their contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
>>>>
>>>>"Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>>>>
>>>>"No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push,
>>>> 1976.
>>>>
>>>>"With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can
>>>>be reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic,"
>>>>the Late Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation
>>>>of the Blind.
>>>>
>>>>Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>for Faith-talk:
>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1776 - Release Date: 11/8/2008
> 6:49 PM
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>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>



From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Sun Nov  9 18:31:28 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 12:31:28 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
References: <E9B0A7C28DD444F7ADC7CB300F67830F@your4dacd0ea75><20081109035831.9E797AC853@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net><4383d01d0811090529o40db51do77b90bee606dc92b@mail.gmail.com><34EE51212347460BBC336CEB5D414D5A@Alan>
	<4383d01d0811090844o4496c680xf7c1eb301ac76b6f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F8F4968EFA6F4D5DA9552449802050AF@Alan>

At the same time, homosexuality is called a sin and abomination by God.  So you think we should allow people to continue to sin against God?


+-+-+-

   We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, to those 
who are called according to his purpose.
 Romans 8:28
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:44 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations


>I would have toagree with Julie.  Marriage is about love, not
> procreative reasons only.  I've known friends who've gotten married as
> nonprocreative peoples.  Also, has anybody thought that marriage
> should at least be for those that can participate in it as well?
> Also, if we have bans on same-sex marriage, think of it this way: we
> are forcing religion on the people, which God really doesn't want us
> to do.  To be Christ-like is not to shove God down the throats of
> those who don't know him, but to spread God's love to them, to let
> them be free people.
> Beth
> 
> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>> Beth,
>> I gently disagree with you.  Marriage was designed by God to be between a
>> man and a woman.  Don't take issue because I said it.  Study the Bible and
>> if you still don't like it, then you have to take it up with God.  It was
>> His idea to begin with, not man's.
>>
>>
>> +-+-+-
>>
>>    The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my
>> God, and I will prepare him an
>>  habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.
>>  Exodus 15:2
>> ~~~
>>
>> Alan D Wheeler
>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>> Skype: redwheel1
>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>> www.theqonline.net
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 7:29 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>
>>
>>>I don't care if Obama's half-black.  God's people will come to
>>> understand a few things:
>>> 1. Marriage, for example, is not between "one man and one woman".  It
>>> is between two able parties, same o different sex, that are actually
>>> willing to stay together.  Our high divorce rate of heterosexual
>>> couples mostly is bad for our children herein America.
>>> 2. Abortion should never happen.  If it's something that has to do
>>> with the mother's life and health, then that's the only exception.
>>> But rape and birth control reasons are not good ones.
>>> 3. Blind people can and wwill have equal rights to vote, gain security
>>> benefits, and so on.  Yes, Obama's the most liberal, but we need him.
>>> Maybe he's a lot more Christian than Bush was.  But God's people must
>>> not be against him.  I'm a Catholic, and I'm also a liberal as well.
>>> Obama has also beat Kennedy by so many years.  ANything having to do
>>> with race is out as far as I'm concerned.  Next, what will happen when
>>> a woman is in the White House?  What about a blind woman? lol
>>> Beth
>>>
>>> On 11/8/08, Linda Mentink <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
>>>> Hi Julie,
>>>>
>>>> I'm sorry, too.  I'm not against our president elect because he's
>>>> black.  Fact is, he's half black.  That's neither here nor
>>>> there.  It's mainly because he's the most liberal of all in Congress,
>>>> and I believe that a lot of our rights will be taken away once he is
>>>> sworn in.  We'll see what happens, but I'm praying for him, and all
>>>> the rest in authority over us.  I sent those things to you because I
>>>> knew you wouldn't find out from the mainstream media.  But the
>>>> election has made history, and God's people need to be more vigilent than
>>>> ever.
>>>>
>>>> Blessings,
>>>>
>>>> Linda
>>>>
>>>> At 03:33 PM 11/8/2008, you wrote:
>>>>>It happened by accident.  When you didn't stop attacking in my
>>>>>in-box--those of you who did it--people of other races by way of our
>>>>>new President-elect, I wrote what I wrote.  Now you know how false
>>>>>accusations hurt everybody.  Because of one man the African-American
>>>>>Church, and people who attend them, have been under tremendous
>>>>>attack ever since last March with no let-up.  Ever since I began
>>>>>attending and became saved in African-American churches in 1972,
>>>>>I've heard dirty, dirty comments like:  "they just do in their
>>>>>church what they did in the slave days."  In the slave days,
>>>>>African-Americans weren't permitted to know anything of the Bible
>>>>>but "Servants obey your masters in the Lord for this is right.
>>>>>
>>>>>If people say what people have said about one another's churches
>>>>>ever since last March, referring to us as blind people, we'd be up
>>>>>in arms.  Let us all be more careful.
>>>>>
>>>>>It hit me like a thunderbolt while I was playing piano at a senior
>>>>>citizens building today why you all were upset.  And as upset as you
>>>>>were last Thursday night, Linda, I was that upset one month ago when
>>>>>I read what you particularly sent me privately at 5:00 on a Sunday
>>>>>morning while  I was getting ready for church.  I'm sorry and maybe
>>>>>we can understand one another better now.
>>>>>
>>>>>  has been
>>>>>
>>>>>"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a
>>>>>human soul," American Humorist Mark Twain
>>>>>
>>>>>"An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth
>>>>>Jernigan, Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind
>>>>>
>>>>>"A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and
>>>>>their contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
>>>>>
>>>>>"Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>>>>>
>>>>>"No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push,
>>>>> 1976.
>>>>>
>>>>>"With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can
>>>>>be reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic,"
>>>>>the Late Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation
>>>>>of the Blind.
>>>>>
>>>>>Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>for Faith-talk:
>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1776 - Release Date: 11/8/2008
>> 6:49 PM
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>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
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From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Sun Nov  9 18:53:52 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 12:53:52 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] More about homosexuality.
Message-ID: <45DA65A746C4427D84681755CC35CB99@Alan>

I went to www.biblegateway.com to see what I could find about homosexuality and the bible.  This was among the resources.  So, again I say, and this is my last comment on the subject, if you disagree that marriage is only for men and women, then your argument is with God.  It's in His book.

http://www.faithfacts.org/christ-and-the-culture/gay-rights#marriage




 Sanctity of Marriage
In recent years, the homosexual movement has centered on giving marriage-like benefits to gay couples. Many in the culture have mistakenly concluded that marriage is merely an institution for the convenience of adults. In actuality, marriage is the bedrock institution for culture to sustain itself through having and nurturing children. There are complementary aspects to a man and woman that are important to the instutution of marriage which go beyond the obvious physical attributes. There are things that a man needs that can only be provided by a woman, and vice versa. 

These complementary aspects are important to the relationship of the couple itself, as well as to the children. One does not have to appeal to religion to instinctively understand this. Yet statistics verify the structure of the traditional family as the approach to raising children that gives the best measurable results. The overwhelming body of social science research agrees that children do best when raised in homes with married, opposite-sex parents. Every child has the right to both a mom and a dad. 

Yet we cannot divorce the institution of marriage from its theological roots. We acknowledge that marriage is an institution given by God (Genesis 2:24). The Creator of the Universe established the relationship between a man and a woman, thus it is a divine institution, not a human one. To confer marriage-like rights to gays is not the prerogative of people (Matthew 19:6). (This includes civil unions or domestic partnerships, as they are merely marriage by other names.) Defining marriage is the prerogative of God. Whatever may tend to undermine the institution of marriage would also undermine the authority of God, as well as hurt society. 

Liberals may argue, "Why should we arbitrarily select only heterosexual couples for marriage? What can it hurt if two homosexuals want to marry?" The answer is surprisingly simple. The institution of marriage between and man a woman is not, in fact, arbitrary. It's purpose is clear and of utmost importance to society. 

David Orland in an article entitled "The Deceit of Gay Marriage" puts it very well. He says: 

  To justify giving privileges or exemptions or subsidies to some particular group in society, the benefit of doing so for society at large must first be shown. With heterosexual marriage, the case is clear enough. Heterosexual marriage is a matter of genuine social interest because the family is essential to society's reproduction. The crux of my argument, in other words, was that married couples receive the benefits they do, not because the state is interested in promoting romantic love, or because the Bible says so or because of the influence of special interest groups but rather because the next generation is something that is and should be of interest to all of us. And, by definition, this is not a case that can be made for homosexual unions. To that degree, the attempt to turn the question of domestic partnership into a debate about fairness falls flat. 

  The more persistent supporters of domestic partnership will of course respond to this argument by pointing to the case in which homosexual partners adopt children or, in the case of lesbians, undergo artificial insemination. The intention here is to show that the nuclear family is found even among homosexual couples and that, to that extent, homosexual unions do indeed meet the same criterion of social interest as heterosexual ones and thus should be granted legal status. It is a weak argument and one that ultimately back-fires on those who employ it. This is for two reasons: 

  First, adoption by homosexual couples is still exceedingly rare and the law-though many are surprised to learn this-is aimed at the general case. To confer legal benefits on the entire class of would-be homosexual spouses just because some very small minority of this class approximates the pattern of the nuclear family would be a bit like admitting all applicants to a select university on the grounds that a few of them had been shown to meet the entrance requirements. 

  Second, the right of this small minority to the benefits of marriage is dubious in the extreme. Homosexual "families" of whatever type are always and necessarily parasitic on heterosexual ones. 

Every child has the right to a mom and a dad. See 5 Reasons Why Same-Sex Marriage Harms Children.  

But homosexuals not only want fair treatment, they are pushing for "Super Rights." According the Paul Cameron of the Family Research Institute: 

  "Every member of society has a duty to contribute to the commonwealth. Yet the empirical evidence indicates that those who engage in homosexuality 1) contribute less and cost more in goods and services, 2) disproportionately disrupt social functioning, and 3) have few children while being more apt to harm them. Thus, homosexual practioners not only fail to 'pay for their keep,' but by their negative influence on children, cloud society's future. 

  Those who engage in homosexuality seek what they say are 'gay rights." In reality, they are demanding Super Rights. Super Rights are those privileges that allow one to ovverride the inalienable rights of other citizens, such as freedom of speech and association. These Super Rights-which are conferred by 'non-discrimination,' 'hate crime,' and 'hate speech' laws-allow homosexuals, if they so choose, to endanger or punish those who would exercise their associational rights to avoid them or protect their children from them. 

  As an example, empirical studies to date indicate that a male teacher who practices homosexuality is the most likely kind of teacher to sexually molest students. A principal knowing this may not want to hire a teacher who declares his homosexual interests. But if that teacher wants the job, his Super Rights trump the associational rights of the principal as well as the right of students not to experience extra risk (especially since safety is part of their right to life). Parents renting out one side of their duplex may not want to place their children at risk by renting to a gay couple. But if-even on a whim - the homosexuals want the duplex, their Super Rights trump the property and associational rights of the parents as well as their children's right not to be exposed to potential molestation. 

  The Super Rights of homosexual practitioners also squelch the right of others to freedom of speech. If a broadcaster opines that homosexual sex is dangerous, but a homosexual finds such speech 'offensive,' his Super Rights trump the broadcaster's freedom of speech and the broadcaster may be fined or imprisoned." 

The concept of hate crimes seems particularly reprehensible. If one of your (heterosexual) loved ones is the object of a despicable crime, the perpetrator would receive a lesser punishment than someone who committed the same act against someone who practices homosexual sex! 

+-+-+-

   He has made clear to you, O man, what is good; and what is desired from you by the Lord; only doing what is 
 right, and loving mercy, and walking without pride before your God. Micah 6:8
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net


From cedarwoman1965 at gmail.com  Sun Nov  9 19:31:55 2008
From: cedarwoman1965 at gmail.com (Bonnie A)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 13:31:55 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
References: <E9B0A7C28DD444F7ADC7CB300F67830F@your4dacd0ea75><20081109035831.9E797AC853@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net><4383d01d0811090529o40db51do77b90bee606dc92b@mail.gmail.com><34EE51212347460BBC336CEB5D414D5A@Alan>
	<4383d01d0811090844o4496c680xf7c1eb301ac76b6f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C557F44B555342038A07AD1250F4865F@Bonnie>

Um, yeah...this is one subject I won't touch with a 10-foot pole.  This can 
get just as intense as politics.

I'm also of the belief that marriage is to be between a man and a woman, 
that's all I'll say about this subject.

------
Bonnie Ainsworth
Lincoln, NE USA

No matter where you go; you're there!


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:44 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations


I would have toagree with Julie.  Marriage is about love, not
procreative reasons only.  I've known friends who've gotten married as
nonprocreative peoples.  Also, has anybody thought that marriage
should at least be for those that can participate in it as well?
Also, if we have bans on same-sex marriage, think of it this way: we
are forcing religion on the people, which God really doesn't want us
to do.  To be Christ-like is not to shove God down the throats of
those who don't know him, but to spread God's love to them, to let
them be free people.
Beth

On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
> Beth,
> I gently disagree with you.  Marriage was designed by God to be between a
> man and a woman.  Don't take issue because I said it.  Study the Bible and
> if you still don't like it, then you have to take it up with God.  It was
> His idea to begin with, not man's.
>
>
> +-+-+-
>
>    The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is 
> my
> God, and I will prepare him an
>  habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.
>  Exodus 15:2
> ~~~
>
> Alan D Wheeler
> awheeler at neb.rr.com
> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
> Skype: redwheel1
> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
> www.theqonline.net
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 7:29 AM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>
>
>>I don't care if Obama's half-black.  God's people will come to
>> understand a few things:
>> 1. Marriage, for example, is not between "one man and one woman".  It
>> is between two able parties, same o different sex, that are actually
>> willing to stay together.  Our high divorce rate of heterosexual
>> couples mostly is bad for our children herein America.
>> 2. Abortion should never happen.  If it's something that has to do
>> with the mother's life and health, then that's the only exception.
>> But rape and birth control reasons are not good ones.
>> 3. Blind people can and wwill have equal rights to vote, gain security
>> benefits, and so on.  Yes, Obama's the most liberal, but we need him.
>> Maybe he's a lot more Christian than Bush was.  But God's people must
>> not be against him.  I'm a Catholic, and I'm also a liberal as well.
>> Obama has also beat Kennedy by so many years.  ANything having to do
>> with race is out as far as I'm concerned.  Next, what will happen when
>> a woman is in the White House?  What about a blind woman? lol
>> Beth
>>
>> On 11/8/08, Linda Mentink <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
>>> Hi Julie,
>>>
>>> I'm sorry, too.  I'm not against our president elect because he's
>>> black.  Fact is, he's half black.  That's neither here nor
>>> there.  It's mainly because he's the most liberal of all in Congress,
>>> and I believe that a lot of our rights will be taken away once he is
>>> sworn in.  We'll see what happens, but I'm praying for him, and all
>>> the rest in authority over us.  I sent those things to you because I
>>> knew you wouldn't find out from the mainstream media.  But the
>>> election has made history, and God's people need to be more vigilent 
>>> than
>>> ever.
>>>
>>> Blessings,
>>>
>>> Linda
>>>
>>> At 03:33 PM 11/8/2008, you wrote:
>>>>It happened by accident.  When you didn't stop attacking in my
>>>>in-box--those of you who did it--people of other races by way of our
>>>>new President-elect, I wrote what I wrote.  Now you know how false
>>>>accusations hurt everybody.  Because of one man the African-American
>>>>Church, and people who attend them, have been under tremendous
>>>>attack ever since last March with no let-up.  Ever since I began
>>>>attending and became saved in African-American churches in 1972,
>>>>I've heard dirty, dirty comments like:  "they just do in their
>>>>church what they did in the slave days."  In the slave days,
>>>>African-Americans weren't permitted to know anything of the Bible
>>>>but "Servants obey your masters in the Lord for this is right.
>>>>
>>>>If people say what people have said about one another's churches
>>>>ever since last March, referring to us as blind people, we'd be up
>>>>in arms.  Let us all be more careful.
>>>>
>>>>It hit me like a thunderbolt while I was playing piano at a senior
>>>>citizens building today why you all were upset.  And as upset as you
>>>>were last Thursday night, Linda, I was that upset one month ago when
>>>>I read what you particularly sent me privately at 5:00 on a Sunday
>>>>morning while  I was getting ready for church.  I'm sorry and maybe
>>>>we can understand one another better now.
>>>>
>>>>  has been
>>>>
>>>>"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a
>>>>human soul," American Humorist Mark Twain
>>>>
>>>>"An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth
>>>>Jernigan, Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind
>>>>
>>>>"A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and
>>>>their contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
>>>>
>>>>"Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>>>>
>>>>"No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push,
>>>> 1976.
>>>>
>>>>"With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can
>>>>be reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic,"
>>>>the Late Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation
>>>>of the Blind.
>>>>
>>>>Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>for Faith-talk:
>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1776 - Release Date: 11/8/2008
> 6:49 PM
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>

_______________________________________________
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From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Sun Nov  9 20:28:17 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 14:28:17 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
References: <E9B0A7C28DD444F7ADC7CB300F67830F@your4dacd0ea75><20081109035831.9E797AC853@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net><4383d01d0811090529o40db51do77b90bee606dc92b@mail.gmail.com><34EE51212347460BBC336CEB5D414D5A@Alan><4383d01d0811090844o4496c680xf7c1eb301ac76b6f@mail.gmail.com>
	<F8F4968EFA6F4D5DA9552449802050AF@Alan>
Message-ID: <FD9FC46FAD3C4602AAA7F6EBFF36863F@your4dacd0ea75>

Alan, this is the bad thing:  We know what the bible says about that and if 
they know it, all they really feel is the church's rejection of them.  We 
have to love people where they are and that means really trying to help them 
fight their battles with homosexuality or whatever the thing is.  We do that 
when it comes to other things.  Plus I really think it's been made such a 
mess that the Scripture that says, "God shall separate the wheat from the 
tariffs," is there for a reason.  Only God can fix it now.

Can we legislate the love of God in those who don't have it or make people 
go the way we know God knows they should when all they feel is rejection? 
These are things I think about now.

I think gays and lesbians should have a civil union, not marriage, because 
pretty soon we're going to have a problem with "common law" couples and all 
that. We can't make ourselves God in governing other people's lives.

When I first got saved in the'70's, if people wore slacks in the 
African-American churches, or even mixed congregations, people were quick to 
quote that thou shall not wear clothes pertaining to a man.  Well, there's a 
difference between man's pants and women's pants.  Now time has passed and 
people are finding now that God deals with people a whole lot better than 
people do.  I wear slacks or pant suits myself.  I don't like to be moving 
around on a piano bench and having to pull at my dress, but God still loves 
me and has used me, particularly in music.

I don't know if you tune to top 40 stations at all, but last summer there 
was a song out by Katy Perry:

"I kissed a girl and I like it.
Hope my boy-friend don't mind it."

And then she talks of it not meaning she's in love tonight.  Because of 
rejection, they're going to push as hard as we do.  God has to intervene in 
this.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Alan Wheeler" <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 12:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations


> At the same time, homosexuality is called a sin and abomination by God. 
> So you think we should allow people to continue to sin against God?
>
>
> +-+-+-
>
>   We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, 
> to those
> who are called according to his purpose.
> Romans 8:28
> ~~~
>
> Alan D Wheeler
> awheeler at neb.rr.com
> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
> Skype: redwheel1
> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at 
> www.theqonline.net
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:44 AM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>
>
>>I would have toagree with Julie.  Marriage is about love, not
>> procreative reasons only.  I've known friends who've gotten married as
>> nonprocreative peoples.  Also, has anybody thought that marriage
>> should at least be for those that can participate in it as well?
>> Also, if we have bans on same-sex marriage, think of it this way: we
>> are forcing religion on the people, which God really doesn't want us
>> to do.  To be Christ-like is not to shove God down the throats of
>> those who don't know him, but to spread God's love to them, to let
>> them be free people.
>> Beth
>>
>> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>> Beth,
>>> I gently disagree with you.  Marriage was designed by God to be between 
>>> a
>>> man and a woman.  Don't take issue because I said it.  Study the Bible 
>>> and
>>> if you still don't like it, then you have to take it up with God.  It 
>>> was
>>> His idea to begin with, not man's.
>>>
>>>
>>> +-+-+-
>>>
>>>    The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he 
>>> is my
>>> God, and I will prepare him an
>>>  habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.
>>>  Exodus 15:2
>>> ~~~
>>>
>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>> www.theqonline.net
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 7:29 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>
>>>
>>>>I don't care if Obama's half-black.  God's people will come to
>>>> understand a few things:
>>>> 1. Marriage, for example, is not between "one man and one woman".  It
>>>> is between two able parties, same o different sex, that are actually
>>>> willing to stay together.  Our high divorce rate of heterosexual
>>>> couples mostly is bad for our children herein America.
>>>> 2. Abortion should never happen.  If it's something that has to do
>>>> with the mother's life and health, then that's the only exception.
>>>> But rape and birth control reasons are not good ones.
>>>> 3. Blind people can and wwill have equal rights to vote, gain security
>>>> benefits, and so on.  Yes, Obama's the most liberal, but we need him.
>>>> Maybe he's a lot more Christian than Bush was.  But God's people must
>>>> not be against him.  I'm a Catholic, and I'm also a liberal as well.
>>>> Obama has also beat Kennedy by so many years.  ANything having to do
>>>> with race is out as far as I'm concerned.  Next, what will happen when
>>>> a woman is in the White House?  What about a blind woman? lol
>>>> Beth
>>>>
>>>> On 11/8/08, Linda Mentink <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
>>>>> Hi Julie,
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm sorry, too.  I'm not against our president elect because he's
>>>>> black.  Fact is, he's half black.  That's neither here nor
>>>>> there.  It's mainly because he's the most liberal of all in Congress,
>>>>> and I believe that a lot of our rights will be taken away once he is
>>>>> sworn in.  We'll see what happens, but I'm praying for him, and all
>>>>> the rest in authority over us.  I sent those things to you because I
>>>>> knew you wouldn't find out from the mainstream media.  But the
>>>>> election has made history, and God's people need to be more vigilent 
>>>>> than
>>>>> ever.
>>>>>
>>>>> Blessings,
>>>>>
>>>>> Linda
>>>>>
>>>>> At 03:33 PM 11/8/2008, you wrote:
>>>>>>It happened by accident.  When you didn't stop attacking in my
>>>>>>in-box--those of you who did it--people of other races by way of our
>>>>>>new President-elect, I wrote what I wrote.  Now you know how false
>>>>>>accusations hurt everybody.  Because of one man the African-American
>>>>>>Church, and people who attend them, have been under tremendous
>>>>>>attack ever since last March with no let-up.  Ever since I began
>>>>>>attending and became saved in African-American churches in 1972,
>>>>>>I've heard dirty, dirty comments like:  "they just do in their
>>>>>>church what they did in the slave days."  In the slave days,
>>>>>>African-Americans weren't permitted to know anything of the Bible
>>>>>>but "Servants obey your masters in the Lord for this is right.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>If people say what people have said about one another's churches
>>>>>>ever since last March, referring to us as blind people, we'd be up
>>>>>>in arms.  Let us all be more careful.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It hit me like a thunderbolt while I was playing piano at a senior
>>>>>>citizens building today why you all were upset.  And as upset as you
>>>>>>were last Thursday night, Linda, I was that upset one month ago when
>>>>>>I read what you particularly sent me privately at 5:00 on a Sunday
>>>>>>morning while  I was getting ready for church.  I'm sorry and maybe
>>>>>>we can understand one another better now.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  has been
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a
>>>>>>human soul," American Humorist Mark Twain
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth
>>>>>>Jernigan, Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and
>>>>>>their contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push,
>>>>>> 1976.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can
>>>>>>be reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic,"
>>>>>>the Late Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation
>>>>>>of the Blind.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>for Faith-talk:
>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1776 - Release Date: 
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>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>
>
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>
>
>
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> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
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From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Sun Nov  9 20:41:00 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 15:41:00 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
In-Reply-To: <F8F4968EFA6F4D5DA9552449802050AF@Alan>
References: <E9B0A7C28DD444F7ADC7CB300F67830F@your4dacd0ea75>
	<20081109035831.9E797AC853@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
	<4383d01d0811090529o40db51do77b90bee606dc92b@mail.gmail.com>
	<34EE51212347460BBC336CEB5D414D5A@Alan>
	<4383d01d0811090844o4496c680xf7c1eb301ac76b6f@mail.gmail.com>
	<F8F4968EFA6F4D5DA9552449802050AF@Alan>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811091241x6bcba8fyf245b5a9bae3889c@mail.gmail.com>

We're talking about a country where not everybody believes in God.  We
Christians are shoving God down the throats of those who don't know
him.  We need to pray for the homosexuals and those who are
experiencing a so-called sin ad we need to be nicer to these people
for God's own sake.
Beth

On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
> At the same time, homosexuality is called a sin and abomination by God.  So
> you think we should allow people to continue to sin against God?
>
>
> +-+-+-
>
>    We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, to
> those
> who are called according to his purpose.
>  Romans 8:28
> ~~~
>
> Alan D Wheeler
> awheeler at neb.rr.com
> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
> Skype: redwheel1
> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
> www.theqonline.net
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:44 AM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>
>
>>I would have toagree with Julie.  Marriage is about love, not
>> procreative reasons only.  I've known friends who've gotten married as
>> nonprocreative peoples.  Also, has anybody thought that marriage
>> should at least be for those that can participate in it as well?
>> Also, if we have bans on same-sex marriage, think of it this way: we
>> are forcing religion on the people, which God really doesn't want us
>> to do.  To be Christ-like is not to shove God down the throats of
>> those who don't know him, but to spread God's love to them, to let
>> them be free people.
>> Beth
>>
>> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>> Beth,
>>> I gently disagree with you.  Marriage was designed by God to be between a
>>> man and a woman.  Don't take issue because I said it.  Study the Bible
>>> and
>>> if you still don't like it, then you have to take it up with God.  It was
>>> His idea to begin with, not man's.
>>>
>>>
>>> +-+-+-
>>>
>>>    The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is
>>> my
>>> God, and I will prepare him an
>>>  habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.
>>>  Exodus 15:2
>>> ~~~
>>>
>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>> www.theqonline.net
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 7:29 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>
>>>
>>>>I don't care if Obama's half-black.  God's people will come to
>>>> understand a few things:
>>>> 1. Marriage, for example, is not between "one man and one woman".  It
>>>> is between two able parties, same o different sex, that are actually
>>>> willing to stay together.  Our high divorce rate of heterosexual
>>>> couples mostly is bad for our children herein America.
>>>> 2. Abortion should never happen.  If it's something that has to do
>>>> with the mother's life and health, then that's the only exception.
>>>> But rape and birth control reasons are not good ones.
>>>> 3. Blind people can and wwill have equal rights to vote, gain security
>>>> benefits, and so on.  Yes, Obama's the most liberal, but we need him.
>>>> Maybe he's a lot more Christian than Bush was.  But God's people must
>>>> not be against him.  I'm a Catholic, and I'm also a liberal as well.
>>>> Obama has also beat Kennedy by so many years.  ANything having to do
>>>> with race is out as far as I'm concerned.  Next, what will happen when
>>>> a woman is in the White House?  What about a blind woman? lol
>>>> Beth
>>>>
>>>> On 11/8/08, Linda Mentink <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
>>>>> Hi Julie,
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm sorry, too.  I'm not against our president elect because he's
>>>>> black.  Fact is, he's half black.  That's neither here nor
>>>>> there.  It's mainly because he's the most liberal of all in Congress,
>>>>> and I believe that a lot of our rights will be taken away once he is
>>>>> sworn in.  We'll see what happens, but I'm praying for him, and all
>>>>> the rest in authority over us.  I sent those things to you because I
>>>>> knew you wouldn't find out from the mainstream media.  But the
>>>>> election has made history, and God's people need to be more vigilent
>>>>> than
>>>>> ever.
>>>>>
>>>>> Blessings,
>>>>>
>>>>> Linda
>>>>>
>>>>> At 03:33 PM 11/8/2008, you wrote:
>>>>>>It happened by accident.  When you didn't stop attacking in my
>>>>>>in-box--those of you who did it--people of other races by way of our
>>>>>>new President-elect, I wrote what I wrote.  Now you know how false
>>>>>>accusations hurt everybody.  Because of one man the African-American
>>>>>>Church, and people who attend them, have been under tremendous
>>>>>>attack ever since last March with no let-up.  Ever since I began
>>>>>>attending and became saved in African-American churches in 1972,
>>>>>>I've heard dirty, dirty comments like:  "they just do in their
>>>>>>church what they did in the slave days."  In the slave days,
>>>>>>African-Americans weren't permitted to know anything of the Bible
>>>>>>but "Servants obey your masters in the Lord for this is right.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>If people say what people have said about one another's churches
>>>>>>ever since last March, referring to us as blind people, we'd be up
>>>>>>in arms.  Let us all be more careful.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It hit me like a thunderbolt while I was playing piano at a senior
>>>>>>citizens building today why you all were upset.  And as upset as you
>>>>>>were last Thursday night, Linda, I was that upset one month ago when
>>>>>>I read what you particularly sent me privately at 5:00 on a Sunday
>>>>>>morning while  I was getting ready for church.  I'm sorry and maybe
>>>>>>we can understand one another better now.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  has been
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a
>>>>>>human soul," American Humorist Mark Twain
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth
>>>>>>Jernigan, Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and
>>>>>>their contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push,
>>>>>> 1976.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can
>>>>>>be reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic,"
>>>>>>the Late Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation
>>>>>>of the Blind.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>for Faith-talk:
>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
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>>>
>>>
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>>>
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From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Sun Nov  9 20:53:23 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 15:53:23 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] More about homosexuality.
In-Reply-To: <45DA65A746C4427D84681755CC35CB99@Alan>
References: <45DA65A746C4427D84681755CC35CB99@Alan>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811091253x2afd9cffu8fc0dcd74995a54d@mail.gmail.com>

Allan, this article is severely biased and is hurtful to homosexual
friends of mine.  Thank God they didn't read this.  To be honest, I
love my friends, all my friends heterosexual and homosexual.  Every
kid has the right to two loving parents, but not necessarily a mom and
a dad.  Gay couples and lesbian couples are still adoptable couples.
I've seen a lesbian couple that adopted two Cree First Nations
children.  I saw a gay couple adopt special needs twins who had
addiction problems.  This country needs to be more progressive and
stop attacking homosexuals because they are homosexuals.  Before you
know it, Allan, this country will put blind and visually impaired
people as well as cognitively disabled people in their places: along
with the homosexuals, below sighted and heterosexual people.  Before
you know it, Allan, African Americans will be kicked out of office and
there will be an assassination attempt on Barack Obama, who I hope
will reign for eight long and healthy years.  Please watch what you're
saying!  We're all Christians on this list!  Can't we accept others'
beliefs and opinions here?  I'm not trying to be psychic and prophetic
here, but please understand that I am very concerned that this nation
is going to fall down like Rome did and we won't have a very healthy
end if you know what I mean.  And not everybody believes in God.  And
God loves everybody, and even though it is written that homosexuality
is a sin, attacking homosexuals who are not atracted and refuse to be
attracted to the opposite sex is wrong.  We cannot an will not attack
others because they are a different brand of homo sapiens sapiens.
Beth

On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
> I went to www.biblegateway.com to see what I could find about homosexuality
> and the bible.  This was among the resources.  So, again I say, and this is
> my last comment on the subject, if you disagree that marriage is only for
> men and women, then your argument is with God.  It's in His book.
>
> http://www.faithfacts.org/christ-and-the-culture/gay-rights#marriage
>
>
>
>
>  Sanctity of Marriage
> In recent years, the homosexual movement has centered on giving
> marriage-like benefits to gay couples. Many in the culture have mistakenly
> concluded that marriage is merely an institution for the convenience of
> adults. In actuality, marriage is the bedrock institution for culture to
> sustain itself through having and nurturing children. There are
> complementary aspects to a man and woman that are important to the
> instutution of marriage which go beyond the obvious physical attributes.
> There are things that a man needs that can only be provided by a woman, and
> vice versa.
>
> These complementary aspects are important to the relationship of the couple
> itself, as well as to the children. One does not have to appeal to religion
> to instinctively understand this. Yet statistics verify the structure of the
> traditional family as the approach to raising children that gives the best
> measurable results. The overwhelming body of social science research agrees
> that children do best when raised in homes with married, opposite-sex
> parents. Every child has the right to both a mom and a dad.
>
> Yet we cannot divorce the institution of marriage from its theological
> roots. We acknowledge that marriage is an institution given by God (Genesis
> 2:24). The Creator of the Universe established the relationship between a
> man and a woman, thus it is a divine institution, not a human one. To confer
> marriage-like rights to gays is not the prerogative of people (Matthew
> 19:6). (This includes civil unions or domestic partnerships, as they are
> merely marriage by other names.) Defining marriage is the prerogative of
> God. Whatever may tend to undermine the institution of marriage would also
> undermine the authority of God, as well as hurt society.
>
> Liberals may argue, "Why should we arbitrarily select only heterosexual
> couples for marriage? What can it hurt if two homosexuals want to marry?"
> The answer is surprisingly simple. The institution of marriage between and
> man a woman is not, in fact, arbitrary. It's purpose is clear and of utmost
> importance to society.
>
> David Orland in an article entitled "The Deceit of Gay Marriage" puts it
> very well. He says:
>
>   To justify giving privileges or exemptions or subsidies to some particular
> group in society, the benefit of doing so for society at large must first be
> shown. With heterosexual marriage, the case is clear enough. Heterosexual
> marriage is a matter of genuine social interest because the family is
> essential to society's reproduction. The crux of my argument, in other
> words, was that married couples receive the benefits they do, not because
> the state is interested in promoting romantic love, or because the Bible
> says so or because of the influence of special interest groups but rather
> because the next generation is something that is and should be of interest
> to all of us. And, by definition, this is not a case that can be made for
> homosexual unions. To that degree, the attempt to turn the question of
> domestic partnership into a debate about fairness falls flat.
>
>   The more persistent supporters of domestic partnership will of course
> respond to this argument by pointing to the case in which homosexual
> partners adopt children or, in the case of lesbians, undergo artificial
> insemination. The intention here is to show that the nuclear family is found
> even among homosexual couples and that, to that extent, homosexual unions do
> indeed meet the same criterion of social interest as heterosexual ones and
> thus should be granted legal status. It is a weak argument and one that
> ultimately back-fires on those who employ it. This is for two reasons:
>
>   First, adoption by homosexual couples is still exceedingly rare and the
> law-though many are surprised to learn this-is aimed at the general case. To
> confer legal benefits on the entire class of would-be homosexual spouses
> just because some very small minority of this class approximates the pattern
> of the nuclear family would be a bit like admitting all applicants to a
> select university on the grounds that a few of them had been shown to meet
> the entrance requirements.
>
>   Second, the right of this small minority to the benefits of marriage is
> dubious in the extreme. Homosexual "families" of whatever type are always
> and necessarily parasitic on heterosexual ones.
>
> Every child has the right to a mom and a dad. See 5 Reasons Why Same-Sex
> Marriage Harms Children.
>
> But homosexuals not only want fair treatment, they are pushing for "Super
> Rights." According the Paul Cameron of the Family Research Institute:
>
>   "Every member of society has a duty to contribute to the commonwealth. Yet
> the empirical evidence indicates that those who engage in homosexuality 1)
> contribute less and cost more in goods and services, 2) disproportionately
> disrupt social functioning, and 3) have few children while being more apt to
> harm them. Thus, homosexual practioners not only fail to 'pay for their
> keep,' but by their negative influence on children, cloud society's future.
>
>   Those who engage in homosexuality seek what they say are 'gay rights." In
> reality, they are demanding Super Rights. Super Rights are those privileges
> that allow one to ovverride the inalienable rights of other citizens, such
> as freedom of speech and association. These Super Rights-which are conferred
> by 'non-discrimination,' 'hate crime,' and 'hate speech' laws-allow
> homosexuals, if they so choose, to endanger or punish those who would
> exercise their associational rights to avoid them or protect their children
> from them.
>
>   As an example, empirical studies to date indicate that a male teacher who
> practices homosexuality is the most likely kind of teacher to sexually
> molest students. A principal knowing this may not want to hire a teacher who
> declares his homosexual interests. But if that teacher wants the job, his
> Super Rights trump the associational rights of the principal as well as the
> right of students not to experience extra risk (especially since safety is
> part of their right to life). Parents renting out one side of their duplex
> may not want to place their children at risk by renting to a gay couple. But
> if-even on a whim - the homosexuals want the duplex, their Super Rights
> trump the property and associational rights of the parents as well as their
> children's right not to be exposed to potential molestation.
>
>   The Super Rights of homosexual practitioners also squelch the right of
> others to freedom of speech. If a broadcaster opines that homosexual sex is
> dangerous, but a homosexual finds such speech 'offensive,' his Super Rights
> trump the broadcaster's freedom of speech and the broadcaster may be fined
> or imprisoned."
>
> The concept of hate crimes seems particularly reprehensible. If one of your
> (heterosexual) loved ones is the object of a despicable crime, the
> perpetrator would receive a lesser punishment than someone who committed the
> same act against someone who practices homosexual sex!
>
> +-+-+-
>
>    He has made clear to you, O man, what is good; and what is desired from
> you by the Lord; only doing what is
>  right, and loving mercy, and walking without pride before your God. Micah
> 6:8
> ~~~
>
> Alan D Wheeler
> awheeler at neb.rr.com
> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
> Skype: redwheel1
> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
> www.theqonline.net
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>



From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Sun Nov  9 20:55:25 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 15:55:25 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
In-Reply-To: <FD9FC46FAD3C4602AAA7F6EBFF36863F@your4dacd0ea75>
References: <E9B0A7C28DD444F7ADC7CB300F67830F@your4dacd0ea75>
	<20081109035831.9E797AC853@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
	<4383d01d0811090529o40db51do77b90bee606dc92b@mail.gmail.com>
	<34EE51212347460BBC336CEB5D414D5A@Alan>
	<4383d01d0811090844o4496c680xf7c1eb301ac76b6f@mail.gmail.com>
	<F8F4968EFA6F4D5DA9552449802050AF@Alan>
	<FD9FC46FAD3C4602AAA7F6EBFF36863F@your4dacd0ea75>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811091255y7d35e900of24b7b67b7eb9998@mail.gmail.com>

I've heard that song, and I see why it's playing.  "I Kissed a Girl"
is a lesbian song, and it details lesbian actions.
Beth

On 11/9/08, Julie C. Vogt <jcvogt at pressenter.com> wrote:
> Alan, this is the bad thing:  We know what the bible says about that and if
> they know it, all they really feel is the church's rejection of them.  We
> have to love people where they are and that means really trying to help them
> fight their battles with homosexuality or whatever the thing is.  We do that
> when it comes to other things.  Plus I really think it's been made such a
> mess that the Scripture that says, "God shall separate the wheat from the
> tariffs," is there for a reason.  Only God can fix it now.
>
> Can we legislate the love of God in those who don't have it or make people
> go the way we know God knows they should when all they feel is rejection?
> These are things I think about now.
>
> I think gays and lesbians should have a civil union, not marriage, because
> pretty soon we're going to have a problem with "common law" couples and all
> that. We can't make ourselves God in governing other people's lives.
>
> When I first got saved in the'70's, if people wore slacks in the
> African-American churches, or even mixed congregations, people were quick to
> quote that thou shall not wear clothes pertaining to a man.  Well, there's a
> difference between man's pants and women's pants.  Now time has passed and
> people are finding now that God deals with people a whole lot better than
> people do.  I wear slacks or pant suits myself.  I don't like to be moving
> around on a piano bench and having to pull at my dress, but God still loves
> me and has used me, particularly in music.
>
> I don't know if you tune to top 40 stations at all, but last summer there
> was a song out by Katy Perry:
>
> "I kissed a girl and I like it.
> Hope my boy-friend don't mind it."
>
> And then she talks of it not meaning she's in love tonight.  Because of
> rejection, they're going to push as hard as we do.  God has to intervene in
> this.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Alan Wheeler" <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 12:31 PM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>
>
>> At the same time, homosexuality is called a sin and abomination by God.
>> So you think we should allow people to continue to sin against God?
>>
>>
>> +-+-+-
>>
>>   We know that all things work together for good for those who love God,
>> to those
>> who are called according to his purpose.
>> Romans 8:28
>> ~~~
>>
>> Alan D Wheeler
>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>> Skype: redwheel1
>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>> www.theqonline.net
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:44 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>
>>
>>>I would have toagree with Julie.  Marriage is about love, not
>>> procreative reasons only.  I've known friends who've gotten married as
>>> nonprocreative peoples.  Also, has anybody thought that marriage
>>> should at least be for those that can participate in it as well?
>>> Also, if we have bans on same-sex marriage, think of it this way: we
>>> are forcing religion on the people, which God really doesn't want us
>>> to do.  To be Christ-like is not to shove God down the throats of
>>> those who don't know him, but to spread God's love to them, to let
>>> them be free people.
>>> Beth
>>>
>>> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>>> Beth,
>>>> I gently disagree with you.  Marriage was designed by God to be between
>>>> a
>>>> man and a woman.  Don't take issue because I said it.  Study the Bible
>>>> and
>>>> if you still don't like it, then you have to take it up with God.  It
>>>> was
>>>> His idea to begin with, not man's.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> +-+-+-
>>>>
>>>>    The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he
>>>> is my
>>>> God, and I will prepare him an
>>>>  habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.
>>>>  Exodus 15:2
>>>> ~~~
>>>>
>>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>>> www.theqonline.net
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 7:29 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I don't care if Obama's half-black.  God's people will come to
>>>>> understand a few things:
>>>>> 1. Marriage, for example, is not between "one man and one woman".  It
>>>>> is between two able parties, same o different sex, that are actually
>>>>> willing to stay together.  Our high divorce rate of heterosexual
>>>>> couples mostly is bad for our children herein America.
>>>>> 2. Abortion should never happen.  If it's something that has to do
>>>>> with the mother's life and health, then that's the only exception.
>>>>> But rape and birth control reasons are not good ones.
>>>>> 3. Blind people can and wwill have equal rights to vote, gain security
>>>>> benefits, and so on.  Yes, Obama's the most liberal, but we need him.
>>>>> Maybe he's a lot more Christian than Bush was.  But God's people must
>>>>> not be against him.  I'm a Catholic, and I'm also a liberal as well.
>>>>> Obama has also beat Kennedy by so many years.  ANything having to do
>>>>> with race is out as far as I'm concerned.  Next, what will happen when
>>>>> a woman is in the White House?  What about a blind woman? lol
>>>>> Beth
>>>>>
>>>>> On 11/8/08, Linda Mentink <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Julie,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm sorry, too.  I'm not against our president elect because he's
>>>>>> black.  Fact is, he's half black.  That's neither here nor
>>>>>> there.  It's mainly because he's the most liberal of all in Congress,
>>>>>> and I believe that a lot of our rights will be taken away once he is
>>>>>> sworn in.  We'll see what happens, but I'm praying for him, and all
>>>>>> the rest in authority over us.  I sent those things to you because I
>>>>>> knew you wouldn't find out from the mainstream media.  But the
>>>>>> election has made history, and God's people need to be more vigilent
>>>>>> than
>>>>>> ever.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Blessings,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Linda
>>>>>>
>>>>>> At 03:33 PM 11/8/2008, you wrote:
>>>>>>>It happened by accident.  When you didn't stop attacking in my
>>>>>>>in-box--those of you who did it--people of other races by way of our
>>>>>>>new President-elect, I wrote what I wrote.  Now you know how false
>>>>>>>accusations hurt everybody.  Because of one man the African-American
>>>>>>>Church, and people who attend them, have been under tremendous
>>>>>>>attack ever since last March with no let-up.  Ever since I began
>>>>>>>attending and became saved in African-American churches in 1972,
>>>>>>>I've heard dirty, dirty comments like:  "they just do in their
>>>>>>>church what they did in the slave days."  In the slave days,
>>>>>>>African-Americans weren't permitted to know anything of the Bible
>>>>>>>but "Servants obey your masters in the Lord for this is right.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>If people say what people have said about one another's churches
>>>>>>>ever since last March, referring to us as blind people, we'd be up
>>>>>>>in arms.  Let us all be more careful.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>It hit me like a thunderbolt while I was playing piano at a senior
>>>>>>>citizens building today why you all were upset.  And as upset as you
>>>>>>>were last Thursday night, Linda, I was that upset one month ago when
>>>>>>>I read what you particularly sent me privately at 5:00 on a Sunday
>>>>>>>morning while  I was getting ready for church.  I'm sorry and maybe
>>>>>>>we can understand one another better now.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  has been
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a
>>>>>>>human soul," American Humorist Mark Twain
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth
>>>>>>>Jernigan, Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and
>>>>>>>their contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push,
>>>>>>> 1976.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can
>>>>>>>be reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic,"
>>>>>>>the Late Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation
>>>>>>>of the Blind.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>for Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1776 - Release Date:
>>>> 11/8/2008
>>>> 6:49 PM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
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>> 2:14 PM
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Sun Nov  9 21:28:05 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 15:28:05 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
References: <E9B0A7C28DD444F7ADC7CB300F67830F@your4dacd0ea75><20081109035831.9E797AC853@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net><4383d01d0811090529o40db51do77b90bee606dc92b@mail.gmail.com><34EE51212347460BBC336CEB5D414D5A@Alan><4383d01d0811090844o4496c680xf7c1eb301ac76b6f@mail.gmail.com><F8F4968EFA6F4D5DA9552449802050AF@Alan>
	<FD9FC46FAD3C4602AAA7F6EBFF36863F@your4dacd0ea75>
Message-ID: <9F16BFC50C664EFCBBAFE73E18FBE86C@Alan>

Julie,
I meant what I said.  What I posted is my last comment.  I will, however, close this by pointing out that ideally, as Christians we love the sinner but hate the sin.  We should, lovingly, try to bring homosexuals out of their lifestyle.  JMO.


+-+-+-

   For he who has died has been freed from sin. 
 Romans 6:7
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Julie C. Vogt" <jcvogt at pressenter.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 2:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations


> Alan, this is the bad thing:  We know what the bible says about that and if 
> they know it, all they really feel is the church's rejection of them.  We 
> have to love people where they are and that means really trying to help them 
> fight their battles with homosexuality or whatever the thing is.  We do that 
> when it comes to other things.  Plus I really think it's been made such a 
> mess that the Scripture that says, "God shall separate the wheat from the 
> tariffs," is there for a reason.  Only God can fix it now.
> 
> Can we legislate the love of God in those who don't have it or make people 
> go the way we know God knows they should when all they feel is rejection? 
> These are things I think about now.
> 
> I think gays and lesbians should have a civil union, not marriage, because 
> pretty soon we're going to have a problem with "common law" couples and all 
> that. We can't make ourselves God in governing other people's lives.
> 
> When I first got saved in the'70's, if people wore slacks in the 
> African-American churches, or even mixed congregations, people were quick to 
> quote that thou shall not wear clothes pertaining to a man.  Well, there's a 
> difference between man's pants and women's pants.  Now time has passed and 
> people are finding now that God deals with people a whole lot better than 
> people do.  I wear slacks or pant suits myself.  I don't like to be moving 
> around on a piano bench and having to pull at my dress, but God still loves 
> me and has used me, particularly in music.
> 
> I don't know if you tune to top 40 stations at all, but last summer there 
> was a song out by Katy Perry:
> 
> "I kissed a girl and I like it.
> Hope my boy-friend don't mind it."
> 
> And then she talks of it not meaning she's in love tonight.  Because of 
> rejection, they're going to push as hard as we do.  God has to intervene in 
> this.
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Alan Wheeler" <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 12:31 PM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
> 
> 
>> At the same time, homosexuality is called a sin and abomination by God. 
>> So you think we should allow people to continue to sin against God?
>>
>>
>> +-+-+-
>>
>>   We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, 
>> to those
>> who are called according to his purpose.
>> Romans 8:28
>> ~~~
>>
>> Alan D Wheeler
>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>> Skype: redwheel1
>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at 
>> www.theqonline.net
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:44 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>
>>
>>>I would have toagree with Julie.  Marriage is about love, not
>>> procreative reasons only.  I've known friends who've gotten married as
>>> nonprocreative peoples.  Also, has anybody thought that marriage
>>> should at least be for those that can participate in it as well?
>>> Also, if we have bans on same-sex marriage, think of it this way: we
>>> are forcing religion on the people, which God really doesn't want us
>>> to do.  To be Christ-like is not to shove God down the throats of
>>> those who don't know him, but to spread God's love to them, to let
>>> them be free people.
>>> Beth
>>>
>>> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>>> Beth,
>>>> I gently disagree with you.  Marriage was designed by God to be between 
>>>> a
>>>> man and a woman.  Don't take issue because I said it.  Study the Bible 
>>>> and
>>>> if you still don't like it, then you have to take it up with God.  It 
>>>> was
>>>> His idea to begin with, not man's.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> +-+-+-
>>>>
>>>>    The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he 
>>>> is my
>>>> God, and I will prepare him an
>>>>  habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.
>>>>  Exodus 15:2
>>>> ~~~
>>>>
>>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>>> www.theqonline.net
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 7:29 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I don't care if Obama's half-black.  God's people will come to
>>>>> understand a few things:
>>>>> 1. Marriage, for example, is not between "one man and one woman".  It
>>>>> is between two able parties, same o different sex, that are actually
>>>>> willing to stay together.  Our high divorce rate of heterosexual
>>>>> couples mostly is bad for our children herein America.
>>>>> 2. Abortion should never happen.  If it's something that has to do
>>>>> with the mother's life and health, then that's the only exception.
>>>>> But rape and birth control reasons are not good ones.
>>>>> 3. Blind people can and wwill have equal rights to vote, gain security
>>>>> benefits, and so on.  Yes, Obama's the most liberal, but we need him.
>>>>> Maybe he's a lot more Christian than Bush was.  But God's people must
>>>>> not be against him.  I'm a Catholic, and I'm also a liberal as well.
>>>>> Obama has also beat Kennedy by so many years.  ANything having to do
>>>>> with race is out as far as I'm concerned.  Next, what will happen when
>>>>> a woman is in the White House?  What about a blind woman? lol
>>>>> Beth
>>>>>
>>>>> On 11/8/08, Linda Mentink <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Julie,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm sorry, too.  I'm not against our president elect because he's
>>>>>> black.  Fact is, he's half black.  That's neither here nor
>>>>>> there.  It's mainly because he's the most liberal of all in Congress,
>>>>>> and I believe that a lot of our rights will be taken away once he is
>>>>>> sworn in.  We'll see what happens, but I'm praying for him, and all
>>>>>> the rest in authority over us.  I sent those things to you because I
>>>>>> knew you wouldn't find out from the mainstream media.  But the
>>>>>> election has made history, and God's people need to be more vigilent 
>>>>>> than
>>>>>> ever.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Blessings,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Linda
>>>>>>
>>>>>> At 03:33 PM 11/8/2008, you wrote:
>>>>>>>It happened by accident.  When you didn't stop attacking in my
>>>>>>>in-box--those of you who did it--people of other races by way of our
>>>>>>>new President-elect, I wrote what I wrote.  Now you know how false
>>>>>>>accusations hurt everybody.  Because of one man the African-American
>>>>>>>Church, and people who attend them, have been under tremendous
>>>>>>>attack ever since last March with no let-up.  Ever since I began
>>>>>>>attending and became saved in African-American churches in 1972,
>>>>>>>I've heard dirty, dirty comments like:  "they just do in their
>>>>>>>church what they did in the slave days."  In the slave days,
>>>>>>>African-Americans weren't permitted to know anything of the Bible
>>>>>>>but "Servants obey your masters in the Lord for this is right.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>If people say what people have said about one another's churches
>>>>>>>ever since last March, referring to us as blind people, we'd be up
>>>>>>>in arms.  Let us all be more careful.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>It hit me like a thunderbolt while I was playing piano at a senior
>>>>>>>citizens building today why you all were upset.  And as upset as you
>>>>>>>were last Thursday night, Linda, I was that upset one month ago when
>>>>>>>I read what you particularly sent me privately at 5:00 on a Sunday
>>>>>>>morning while  I was getting ready for church.  I'm sorry and maybe
>>>>>>>we can understand one another better now.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  has been
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a
>>>>>>>human soul," American Humorist Mark Twain
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth
>>>>>>>Jernigan, Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and
>>>>>>>their contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push,
>>>>>>> 1976.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can
>>>>>>>be reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic,"
>>>>>>>the Late Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation
>>>>>>>of the Blind.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>for Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1776 - Release Date: 
>>>> 11/8/2008
>>>> 6:49 PM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>> Faith-talk:
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>>
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>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
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>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
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> 
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> 
> 
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Sun Nov  9 21:42:22 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 15:42:22 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] More about homosexuality.
References: <45DA65A746C4427D84681755CC35CB99@Alan>
	<4383d01d0811091253x2afd9cffu8fc0dcd74995a54d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6101B7CE164848B5B6D1EEF3DD03A35B@Alan>

Beth,
for the ***FINAL** time.  Your argument is with God *NOT* with me.  It's in the Bible...God's word.  People not believing it doesn't make it less true.  If you want to dispute God's truth...dispute it with God and not me.


+-+-+-

   There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. 
 1 Samuel 2:2
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 2:53 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] More about homosexuality.


> Allan, this article is severely biased and is hurtful to homosexual
> friends of mine.  Thank God they didn't read this.  To be honest, I
> love my friends, all my friends heterosexual and homosexual.  Every
> kid has the right to two loving parents, but not necessarily a mom and
> a dad.  Gay couples and lesbian couples are still adoptable couples.
> I've seen a lesbian couple that adopted two Cree First Nations
> children.  I saw a gay couple adopt special needs twins who had
> addiction problems.  This country needs to be more progressive and
> stop attacking homosexuals because they are homosexuals.  Before you
> know it, Allan, this country will put blind and visually impaired
> people as well as cognitively disabled people in their places: along
> with the homosexuals, below sighted and heterosexual people.  Before
> you know it, Allan, African Americans will be kicked out of office and
> there will be an assassination attempt on Barack Obama, who I hope
> will reign for eight long and healthy years.  Please watch what you're
> saying!  We're all Christians on this list!  Can't we accept others'
> beliefs and opinions here?  I'm not trying to be psychic and prophetic
> here, but please understand that I am very concerned that this nation
> is going to fall down like Rome did and we won't have a very healthy
> end if you know what I mean.  And not everybody believes in God.  And
> God loves everybody, and even though it is written that homosexuality
> is a sin, attacking homosexuals who are not atracted and refuse to be
> attracted to the opposite sex is wrong.  We cannot an will not attack
> others because they are a different brand of homo sapiens sapiens.
> Beth
> 
> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>> I went to www.biblegateway.com to see what I could find about homosexuality
>> and the bible.  This was among the resources.  So, again I say, and this is
>> my last comment on the subject, if you disagree that marriage is only for
>> men and women, then your argument is with God.  It's in His book.
>>
>> http://www.faithfacts.org/christ-and-the-culture/gay-rights#marriage
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  Sanctity of Marriage
>> In recent years, the homosexual movement has centered on giving
>> marriage-like benefits to gay couples. Many in the culture have mistakenly
>> concluded that marriage is merely an institution for the convenience of
>> adults. In actuality, marriage is the bedrock institution for culture to
>> sustain itself through having and nurturing children. There are
>> complementary aspects to a man and woman that are important to the
>> instutution of marriage which go beyond the obvious physical attributes.
>> There are things that a man needs that can only be provided by a woman, and
>> vice versa.
>>
>> These complementary aspects are important to the relationship of the couple
>> itself, as well as to the children. One does not have to appeal to religion
>> to instinctively understand this. Yet statistics verify the structure of the
>> traditional family as the approach to raising children that gives the best
>> measurable results. The overwhelming body of social science research agrees
>> that children do best when raised in homes with married, opposite-sex
>> parents. Every child has the right to both a mom and a dad.
>>
>> Yet we cannot divorce the institution of marriage from its theological
>> roots. We acknowledge that marriage is an institution given by God (Genesis
>> 2:24). The Creator of the Universe established the relationship between a
>> man and a woman, thus it is a divine institution, not a human one. To confer
>> marriage-like rights to gays is not the prerogative of people (Matthew
>> 19:6). (This includes civil unions or domestic partnerships, as they are
>> merely marriage by other names.) Defining marriage is the prerogative of
>> God. Whatever may tend to undermine the institution of marriage would also
>> undermine the authority of God, as well as hurt society.
>>
>> Liberals may argue, "Why should we arbitrarily select only heterosexual
>> couples for marriage? What can it hurt if two homosexuals want to marry?"
>> The answer is surprisingly simple. The institution of marriage between and
>> man a woman is not, in fact, arbitrary. It's purpose is clear and of utmost
>> importance to society.
>>
>> David Orland in an article entitled "The Deceit of Gay Marriage" puts it
>> very well. He says:
>>
>>   To justify giving privileges or exemptions or subsidies to some particular
>> group in society, the benefit of doing so for society at large must first be
>> shown. With heterosexual marriage, the case is clear enough. Heterosexual
>> marriage is a matter of genuine social interest because the family is
>> essential to society's reproduction. The crux of my argument, in other
>> words, was that married couples receive the benefits they do, not because
>> the state is interested in promoting romantic love, or because the Bible
>> says so or because of the influence of special interest groups but rather
>> because the next generation is something that is and should be of interest
>> to all of us. And, by definition, this is not a case that can be made for
>> homosexual unions. To that degree, the attempt to turn the question of
>> domestic partnership into a debate about fairness falls flat.
>>
>>   The more persistent supporters of domestic partnership will of course
>> respond to this argument by pointing to the case in which homosexual
>> partners adopt children or, in the case of lesbians, undergo artificial
>> insemination. The intention here is to show that the nuclear family is found
>> even among homosexual couples and that, to that extent, homosexual unions do
>> indeed meet the same criterion of social interest as heterosexual ones and
>> thus should be granted legal status. It is a weak argument and one that
>> ultimately back-fires on those who employ it. This is for two reasons:
>>
>>   First, adoption by homosexual couples is still exceedingly rare and the
>> law-though many are surprised to learn this-is aimed at the general case. To
>> confer legal benefits on the entire class of would-be homosexual spouses
>> just because some very small minority of this class approximates the pattern
>> of the nuclear family would be a bit like admitting all applicants to a
>> select university on the grounds that a few of them had been shown to meet
>> the entrance requirements.
>>
>>   Second, the right of this small minority to the benefits of marriage is
>> dubious in the extreme. Homosexual "families" of whatever type are always
>> and necessarily parasitic on heterosexual ones.
>>
>> Every child has the right to a mom and a dad. See 5 Reasons Why Same-Sex
>> Marriage Harms Children.
>>
>> But homosexuals not only want fair treatment, they are pushing for "Super
>> Rights." According the Paul Cameron of the Family Research Institute:
>>
>>   "Every member of society has a duty to contribute to the commonwealth. Yet
>> the empirical evidence indicates that those who engage in homosexuality 1)
>> contribute less and cost more in goods and services, 2) disproportionately
>> disrupt social functioning, and 3) have few children while being more apt to
>> harm them. Thus, homosexual practioners not only fail to 'pay for their
>> keep,' but by their negative influence on children, cloud society's future.
>>
>>   Those who engage in homosexuality seek what they say are 'gay rights." In
>> reality, they are demanding Super Rights. Super Rights are those privileges
>> that allow one to ovverride the inalienable rights of other citizens, such
>> as freedom of speech and association. These Super Rights-which are conferred
>> by 'non-discrimination,' 'hate crime,' and 'hate speech' laws-allow
>> homosexuals, if they so choose, to endanger or punish those who would
>> exercise their associational rights to avoid them or protect their children
>> from them.
>>
>>   As an example, empirical studies to date indicate that a male teacher who
>> practices homosexuality is the most likely kind of teacher to sexually
>> molest students. A principal knowing this may not want to hire a teacher who
>> declares his homosexual interests. But if that teacher wants the job, his
>> Super Rights trump the associational rights of the principal as well as the
>> right of students not to experience extra risk (especially since safety is
>> part of their right to life). Parents renting out one side of their duplex
>> may not want to place their children at risk by renting to a gay couple. But
>> if-even on a whim - the homosexuals want the duplex, their Super Rights
>> trump the property and associational rights of the parents as well as their
>> children's right not to be exposed to potential molestation.
>>
>>   The Super Rights of homosexual practitioners also squelch the right of
>> others to freedom of speech. If a broadcaster opines that homosexual sex is
>> dangerous, but a homosexual finds such speech 'offensive,' his Super Rights
>> trump the broadcaster's freedom of speech and the broadcaster may be fined
>> or imprisoned."
>>
>> The concept of hate crimes seems particularly reprehensible. If one of your
>> (heterosexual) loved ones is the object of a despicable crime, the
>> perpetrator would receive a lesser punishment than someone who committed the
>> same act against someone who practices homosexual sex!
>>
>> +-+-+-
>>
>>    He has made clear to you, O man, what is good; and what is desired from
>> you by the Lord; only doing what is
>>  right, and loving mercy, and walking without pride before your God. Micah
>> 6:8
>> ~~~
>>
>> Alan D Wheeler
>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>> Skype: redwheel1
>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>> www.theqonline.net
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com


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From wesley.burden at verizon.net  Sun Nov  9 21:53:52 2008
From: wesley.burden at verizon.net (WESLEY BURDEN)
Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2008 16:53:52 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] More about homosexuality.
In-Reply-To: <4383d01d0811091253x2afd9cffu8fc0dcd74995a54d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <45DA65A746C4427D84681755CC35CB99@Alan>
	<4383d01d0811091253x2afd9cffu8fc0dcd74995a54d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49D78482454845D2964743B6D56CB656@Buster>

All I will say about this subject is gog created adam and eve the lord
didn't create adam and steve.  I don't have a problem with home sexuals or
anybody god tells us to love the sinner but hate the sin.

 

-----Original Message-----
From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Beth
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 3:53 PM
To: Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] More about homosexuality.

Allan, this article is severely biased and is hurtful to homosexual friends
of mine.  Thank God they didn't read this.  To be honest, I love my friends,
all my friends heterosexual and homosexual.  Every kid has the right to two
loving parents, but not necessarily a mom and a dad.  Gay couples and
lesbian couples are still adoptable couples.
I've seen a lesbian couple that adopted two Cree First Nations children.  I
saw a gay couple adopt special needs twins who had addiction problems.  This
country needs to be more progressive and stop attacking homosexuals because
they are homosexuals.  Before you know it, Allan, this country will put
blind and visually impaired people as well as cognitively disabled people in
their places: along with the homosexuals, below sighted and heterosexual
people.  Before you know it, Allan, African Americans will be kicked out of
office and there will be an assassination attempt on Barack Obama, who I
hope will reign for eight long and healthy years.  Please watch what you're
saying!  We're all Christians on this list!  Can't we accept others'
beliefs and opinions here?  I'm not trying to be psychic and prophetic here,
but please understand that I am very concerned that this nation is going to
fall down like Rome did and we won't have a very healthy end if you know
what I mean.  And not everybody believes in God.  And God loves everybody,
and even though it is written that homosexuality is a sin, attacking
homosexuals who are not atracted and refuse to be attracted to the opposite
sex is wrong.  We cannot an will not attack others because they are a
different brand of homo sapiens sapiens.
Beth

On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
> I went to www.biblegateway.com to see what I could find about 
> homosexuality and the bible.  This was among the resources.  So, again 
> I say, and this is my last comment on the subject, if you disagree 
> that marriage is only for men and women, then your argument is with God.
It's in His book.
>
> http://www.faithfacts.org/christ-and-the-culture/gay-rights#marriage
>
>
>
>
>  Sanctity of Marriage
> In recent years, the homosexual movement has centered on giving 
> marriage-like benefits to gay couples. Many in the culture have 
> mistakenly concluded that marriage is merely an institution for the 
> convenience of adults. In actuality, marriage is the bedrock 
> institution for culture to sustain itself through having and nurturing 
> children. There are complementary aspects to a man and woman that are 
> important to the instutution of marriage which go beyond the obvious
physical attributes.
> There are things that a man needs that can only be provided by a 
> woman, and vice versa.
>
> These complementary aspects are important to the relationship of the 
> couple itself, as well as to the children. One does not have to appeal 
> to religion to instinctively understand this. Yet statistics verify 
> the structure of the traditional family as the approach to raising 
> children that gives the best measurable results. The overwhelming body 
> of social science research agrees that children do best when raised in 
> homes with married, opposite-sex parents. Every child has the right to
both a mom and a dad.
>
> Yet we cannot divorce the institution of marriage from its theological 
> roots. We acknowledge that marriage is an institution given by God 
> (Genesis 2:24). The Creator of the Universe established the 
> relationship between a man and a woman, thus it is a divine 
> institution, not a human one. To confer marriage-like rights to gays 
> is not the prerogative of people (Matthew 19:6). (This includes civil 
> unions or domestic partnerships, as they are merely marriage by other 
> names.) Defining marriage is the prerogative of God. Whatever may tend 
> to undermine the institution of marriage would also undermine the
authority of God, as well as hurt society.
>
> Liberals may argue, "Why should we arbitrarily select only 
> heterosexual couples for marriage? What can it hurt if two homosexuals
want to marry?"
> The answer is surprisingly simple. The institution of marriage between 
> and man a woman is not, in fact, arbitrary. It's purpose is clear and 
> of utmost importance to society.
>
> David Orland in an article entitled "The Deceit of Gay Marriage" puts 
> it very well. He says:
>
>   To justify giving privileges or exemptions or subsidies to some 
> particular group in society, the benefit of doing so for society at 
> large must first be shown. With heterosexual marriage, the case is 
> clear enough. Heterosexual marriage is a matter of genuine social 
> interest because the family is essential to society's reproduction. 
> The crux of my argument, in other words, was that married couples 
> receive the benefits they do, not because the state is interested in 
> promoting romantic love, or because the Bible says so or because of 
> the influence of special interest groups but rather because the next 
> generation is something that is and should be of interest to all of 
> us. And, by definition, this is not a case that can be made for 
> homosexual unions. To that degree, the attempt to turn the question of
domestic partnership into a debate about fairness falls flat.
>
>   The more persistent supporters of domestic partnership will of 
> course respond to this argument by pointing to the case in which 
> homosexual partners adopt children or, in the case of lesbians, 
> undergo artificial insemination. The intention here is to show that 
> the nuclear family is found even among homosexual couples and that, to 
> that extent, homosexual unions do indeed meet the same criterion of 
> social interest as heterosexual ones and thus should be granted legal 
> status. It is a weak argument and one that ultimately back-fires on those
who employ it. This is for two reasons:
>
>   First, adoption by homosexual couples is still exceedingly rare and 
> the law-though many are surprised to learn this-is aimed at the 
> general case. To confer legal benefits on the entire class of would-be 
> homosexual spouses just because some very small minority of this class 
> approximates the pattern of the nuclear family would be a bit like 
> admitting all applicants to a select university on the grounds that a 
> few of them had been shown to meet the entrance requirements.
>
>   Second, the right of this small minority to the benefits of marriage 
> is dubious in the extreme. Homosexual "families" of whatever type are 
> always and necessarily parasitic on heterosexual ones.
>
> Every child has the right to a mom and a dad. See 5 Reasons Why 
> Same-Sex Marriage Harms Children.
>
> But homosexuals not only want fair treatment, they are pushing for 
> "Super Rights." According the Paul Cameron of the Family Research
Institute:
>
>   "Every member of society has a duty to contribute to the 
> commonwealth. Yet the empirical evidence indicates that those who 
> engage in homosexuality 1) contribute less and cost more in goods and 
> services, 2) disproportionately disrupt social functioning, and 3) 
> have few children while being more apt to harm them. Thus, homosexual 
> practioners not only fail to 'pay for their keep,' but by their negative
influence on children, cloud society's future.
>
>   Those who engage in homosexuality seek what they say are 'gay 
> rights." In reality, they are demanding Super Rights. Super Rights are 
> those privileges that allow one to ovverride the inalienable rights of 
> other citizens, such as freedom of speech and association. These Super 
> Rights-which are conferred by 'non-discrimination,' 'hate crime,' and 
> 'hate speech' laws-allow homosexuals, if they so choose, to endanger 
> or punish those who would exercise their associational rights to avoid 
> them or protect their children from them.
>
>   As an example, empirical studies to date indicate that a male 
> teacher who practices homosexuality is the most likely kind of teacher 
> to sexually molest students. A principal knowing this may not want to 
> hire a teacher who declares his homosexual interests. But if that 
> teacher wants the job, his Super Rights trump the associational rights 
> of the principal as well as the right of students not to experience 
> extra risk (especially since safety is part of their right to life). 
> Parents renting out one side of their duplex may not want to place 
> their children at risk by renting to a gay couple. But if-even on a 
> whim - the homosexuals want the duplex, their Super Rights trump the 
> property and associational rights of the parents as well as their
children's right not to be exposed to potential molestation.
>
>   The Super Rights of homosexual practitioners also squelch the right 
> of others to freedom of speech. If a broadcaster opines that 
> homosexual sex is dangerous, but a homosexual finds such speech 
> 'offensive,' his Super Rights trump the broadcaster's freedom of 
> speech and the broadcaster may be fined or imprisoned."
>
> The concept of hate crimes seems particularly reprehensible. If one of 
> your
> (heterosexual) loved ones is the object of a despicable crime, the 
> perpetrator would receive a lesser punishment than someone who 
> committed the same act against someone who practices homosexual sex!
>
> +-+-+-
>
>    He has made clear to you, O man, what is good; and what is desired 
> from you by the Lord; only doing what is  right, and loving mercy, and 
> walking without pride before your God. Micah
> 6:8
> ~~~
>
> Alan D Wheeler
> awheeler at neb.rr.com
> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
> Skype: redwheel1
> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at 
> www.theqonline.net _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesis
> loose%40gmail.com
>

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From wesley.burden at verizon.net  Sun Nov  9 21:59:35 2008
From: wesley.burden at verizon.net (WESLEY BURDEN)
Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2008 16:59:35 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Emailing: Last Days Ministries  I'm Gay, O.K.
Message-ID: <35A03D458698454A84A02B53EB5728FC@Buster>

	


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 Gay OK
<http://lastdaysministries.org/Images/content/1000000028/1000037567.jpg> I'm
Gay, O.K.?


By Martin Bennett



Some have dived head first into the whole gay scene, apparently without
hesitation. Others have been tugged in over a period of time, and then some
are still "holding out." Even the church can't deny that many within it are
having tremendous struggles with homosexuality. Growing masses of gays are
parading down the streets with banners, pursuing a new found freedom to do
what they want. But the real things so many seek after - friendship,
acceptance, and love - elude them, remaining just outside their reach. 

A man who at one time had given himself over to seeking pleasure spoke the
truth when he said that "Even in laughter the heart may be in pain, and the
end of joy may be grief." 1 


It's Not Good To Be Alone 

The good memories of our lives usually aren't made of the things we got or
even what we did, but it's who we were with that makes our memories special
to us. Good relationships. Unless we've been deeply wounded, we want to be
friends with others and enjoy the company of another person who really cares
for us. The problem is, whenever you're in a relationship that can bring
good things, hurts and disappointments can come just as easily. We end up
relating to those we feel comfortable with and accepted by. 

Deep inside of everyone (straights included) there is a yearning for
meaningful and real in relationships. But, by the admission of those who
have been there, the gay lifestyle delivers a drop of pleasure and a gallon
of loneliness and pain. 


What Is Homosexuality? 

Before we go any further, we need to define what homosexuality is, and
isn't. It isn't just a strong attraction for those of the same sex. Someone
who is tempted to steal something isn't a thief until he actually gives in
to his desire, and someone who's been hurt by another may feel like hating
that person - but it's when he gives himself over to this desire that he's
stepped over the line. That means giving your mind over in pursuing lustful
thoughts (maybe through pornography), or giving your body over to pursue
these desires. However, just having some kind of homosexual encounter in
your past doesn't necessarily mean that you're gay. 

A homosexual is a person who not only has a strong attraction for the same
sex, but has also made the decision to yield to these desires The gay
mentality or lifestyle aren't things you just stumble into - you walk into
them step by step. 


Where Did It Start? 

Maybe you always felt that you were just "different" - you know, you didn't
quite seem to fit the image of what most people thought was a "real man" or
a "real woman." No, you didn't seem to have much in common with the
deep-voiced hero who always saved the day, and playing baseball wasn't any
fun to you. Or as a girl you just "couldn't relate to men." Or maybe the
first person who ever showed you any attention and kindness made it easy for
you to start thinking that you "must be gay." 

Maybe you grew up in a place where homosexuality was just a normal part of
life. Maybe you were hurt so badly by a certain person that you pulled away
from them, and others of the same sex, to keep from being hurt like that
again. But in your heart, you know that anyone you become close to has the
ability to hurt you, gay or straight. Maybe you feel like you were just born
the way you now are. However you got to where you're at, if there's any
sense that something's "just not right" about how things are right now, the
most important thing is "Now what?" Well, let's start at the beginning. 


Why Did God Make Us? 

If you're turned off to God right now, please give Him a chance to explain
Himself. Just as you may be misunderstood sometimes, God has really been
misunderstood. The One who designed you and knows everything about you is
the same One who cares about you more than you even care for yourself. 

God has given us life. After He made man and woman, He said that what He had
done was good. The heart of God is to give to others and make them happy.
His hopes were that they would enjoy His world and enjoy His presence. He
didn't expect that the people He had loved and given to would want to shut
Him out of their lives. Even though He made the whole world and has
continued to be good to all of us, for the most part we don't want Him to
have anything to do with our lives. Remember this the next time you feel
hurt and rejected, because Jesus has been hurt and rejected in a much
greater way. Still, His only desire is that perhaps once again people will
enjoy His world and His presence in their lives. 


The Manufacturer's Manual 

"So what's wrong with being gay, anyway? It's my sexual preference. What
difference does it make? Didn't God make us the way we are?" So many have
struggled with homosexual desires that there's a growing confusion as to
whether or not it's wrong, and whether a person can really be free from it
all. There are a lot of "experts" who seem to come up with a new "answer"
every day, but in order to get the unchanging truth, we need to look into
the Manufacturer's Manual - the Bible. God has made each one of us in a
special way, "custom designed" really. In fact, He holds the only patent on
the human race. So if anyone knows how we're supposed to work the best. He
does! And to show us the right way to live, He has given us the Bible - the
most printed and read book in the world. God wants us to be filled with real
happiness, and through the Bible He shows us the way to life, and the way to
death. 


The Law: For Us Or Against Us? 

To keep us from destroying ourselves and each other, the Lord set up certain
laws. It's because He really cares about us that He did this. Have you ever
been at someone's house where the kids were running all over the place,
yelling, fighting, covered in dirt-and the parents just stared at the TV?
That's not love, is it? Besides making everyone else miserable, the children
themselves are suffering. We have laws about speeding and drunk driving,
too, to protect us, and we know they're for our own good. 

So God isn't some kind of kiljoy trying to prevent anyone from having any
fun, rather, His laws are to enable us to get the maximum out of life. His
rules aren't a bunch of arbitrary "dos and don'ts" either - they all make
total sense when you stand back and take a look at the whole picture. 

Just about everyone recognizes the fact that murder is wrong. We don't think
it's wrong because there's a law against it, rather, we made laws because it
was wrong. If you said, "Hey, I don't like this law of gravity. It's too
confining. I want to be free and proceeded to step out of a 10th floor
window - you'd end up destroying yourself (and maybe someone else too!). 

The law of gravity only recognizes reality. In the same way, the laws or
principles that God has given us in the Bible only show us the way things
really are. 

We've been carefully designed, body, mind, and soul, for a specific purpose,
and have a responsibility to use our lives in a right way. You know what
happens to the tip of a pocket knife when you try to use it for a
screwdriver or a pry bar. the tip breaks off. That's because it wasn't
designed for that purpose. It's the same way with our lives. 

It's when we misuse our lives for selfish reasons that everything is knocked
out of kilter. God loves each person, but hates selfishness because He sees
how it destroys us, our relationships, and others. So God won't allow
selfishness to spread easily. Why? Because He loves us enough to keep us
from destroying ourselves. 


Don't Be Fooled 

T he Lord makes it clear that He never intended men and women to be gay, and
He also makes it clear that those who practice these things cannot be at
peace with Him or even at peace with themselves. He told us a long time ago
"Don't fool yourselves. Those who live immoral lives, who are idol
worshipers, adulterers or homosexuals - will have no share in His kingdom."
(I Cor. 6:9-10 LB) And again He warns us, "The penalty for homosexual acts
is death to both parties." (Lev. 20:13 LB) Because of God's heart towards
us, He has given us these warnings for our own good. 

Jesus said that He came to bring us life. Remember, He's the One who
designed you. He promises us that if we walk with Him, following His good
directions and commands, we'll have real happiness and there will be peace
in our hearts. But He also promises that if we think we know better, and
push away from Him to follow our selfishness, the exact opposite will happen
to us. The tremendous spread of disease among gays and immoral straights
would not exist if we listened to the instructions of God, which are for our
own protection, good, and happiness. 


Turning From God 

Here's how the Scriptures say people end up far away from God- "Yes, they
knew about Him all right, but they wouldn't admit it or worship Him or even
thank Him for all His daily care. And after awhile they began to think up
silly ideas of what God was like and what He wanted them to do. The result
was that their foolish minds became dark and confused." (Rom. 1:21 LB) 

This is what happens: 



	
1.	At some point in our life we know about God and know He's real. 

2.	We don't agree with Him and so we're ungrateful. Instead of thanks,
we complain about this and that. 

3.	We start looking for excuses and false reasons; we speculate, hoping
to justify our selfish desires. 

4.	Wandering away from the truth that we once knew, we walk into
darkness and error. 

Then God says that "They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and
worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator." (Rom. 1:25) Of
course, this applies to all people that have turned from God, but if you've
been around the gay scene in any way, you know that men and women end up
worshipping and serving their bodies. A cruising homosexual in the
Tenderloin of San Francisco said, "The trading of bodies in a gay bar is the
most insensitive thing on earth. It is degrading and repulsive, because most
gay bars are now just information whorehouses, dispensing gossip, pamphlets,
and raising money for political causes. " 2 


God Gives Up 

What would you do if you were in the Lord's position? He wants the best for
us, but we just won't listen. When people get to the point that they don't
care at all about what's right or true anymore because they've traded the
truth for a lie, God throws His hands up in the air and says, "O.K., go
ahead and do what you want." "For this reason God gave them over to
degrading passions." (Rom. 1:26) We crave and desire and pull so hard, like
a dog on a leash wanting to run in the street, that although it breaks His
heart to do so, the Lord finally cuts the leash and lets us go where we
want. 

This is the rest of the Scripture, "For this reason God gave them over to
degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that
which is unnatural and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural
function of the woman and burned in their desire towards one another, men
with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due
penalty of their error" (Rom. 1:26-27) Please don't let anyone tell you that
the "natural function" of a homosexual is for members of the same sex, and
that it would be "unnatural" for them to be heterosexual (This is a common
argument among some groups) There is no scripture upholding gay sex, and the
Lord calls gayness itself error. 


The Real Problem 

The real problem here is nothing new, and it's not unique to people faced
with homosexual desires. The problem is trying to do what's right when you
feel like doing something else. Everyone struggles with desires and
temptations for things that aren't good. Even Jesus struggled with similar
temptations. You see, for the most part, desires by themselves aren't good
or bad. Even having strong temptations every day isn't evil (but it is
hard). 

A person with a weight problem may love hot fudge sundaes. They may have
loved them as far back as they can remember. Can they just decide to hate
hot fudge sundaes? Could you? Of course not. But they can decide to yield to
God and seek His help to do what is right, despite the desires in the
opposite direction. 

On the other hand, somebody else might have a tremendous desire to love and
serve God with all of his heart - but he never really gets around to doing
anything pleasing to the Lord. Do you think God that will say, "Oh well, at
least he wished he was doing right"? Can you imagine standing in front of a
judge in traffic court saying, "But your honor, I really wanted to stop at
that red light"? He's not going to care at all what you wanted to do, what
he wants to know is what did you end up doing? 


The Battleground 

The battle is not over your desires, but over your will. The people that the
Lord gives up to their selfish desires are not people who couldn't do what
was right, but people who wouldn't do what was right. Jesus said, "And this
is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the
darkness rather than the light; for their deeds were evil." (John 3:19) It's
not just a matter of liking the darkness. No, loving the darkness is an
intense clinging with no letting go. 

When we give in to the temptations of the enemy (yes, the devil is very
real), we can't blame God for making us that way. The One who sees to the
core of our hearts says that, "Each one is tempted when he is carried away
and enticed by his own lust."(James 1:14) We're not dragged into rebellion
by the way we grew up either, although many times our childhood experiences
make it easier to rebel. But in the end, we make our own choices. We decide
to give in. We are enticed by our own lust. 

Whoever or whatever you yield yourself to is your god. If what you "feel"
like doing determines what you do, then your feelings are your god. If what
you crave after overcomes your will, then the appetite of your flesh is your
god. As a gay man put it, "My desires took over my reasoning."3 


Guilt 

Some of us hate that word - "guilt." But guilt serves a very good purpose.
The very presence of guilt proves that we can do what is right. If your boss
gave you a shovel and told you to fill in the Grand Canyon in one afternoon,
you wouldn't feel guilty for not doing it, would you? Or if your coach asked
you to jump a 50 foot wall, you wouldn't feel bad about not being able to do
it, because you know you couldn't. 

Its when we can do what's right and we don't do it that we feel guilty We
feel that way because we know we should be doing something else God sends
guilt to us as an alarm. Just like the pain in a stubbed toe, the message
being sent is, "Something is wrong." When the red lights of your conscience
go off telling you "Danger! Danger!" and you keep pushing, slowly you lose
your feelings of guilt The Bible says that in the last days many people will
be "seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron." (I Tim 4:2)
Just because you may not feel as guilty as you used to is not a sign that
you're safe - far from it. 


Can I Be Free? 

If you're wondering if God will fix up your life, the answer is no, He
won't. He wants to give you a totally new life. Face it - you can't change
your desires, and without the power of the Living God in your life, you
can't even change your actions because you're a slave to your appetites.
Jesus said that "You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you
free." (John 8:32) But you can't be set free from the power of strong
desires and wrong actions until you first admit that you're a slave. You
must see that you've been wrong for giving in to these desires if you're
guilty of doing that. 

When you humble yourself before the Lord, admitting your guilt and shame,
giving the reins of your life completely over to Him, then Jesus will come
to you with loving forgiveness and life-changing power. As you yield your
will to Jesus, He will lead you into the life of wholeness and peace that
you've always really desired. God is what has been missing in your life all
this time. 

The Lord moves in different ways in each person's life. Some people are
instantly delivered from the power of these desires when they cry out to the
Lord. Others are set free as they continue to follow Jesus, making right
choices, and allowing His power to release them from years of wrong thought
patterns and actions. 

If you wonder if it's really possible, even the very first Christians knew
the freedom that Jesus brought: 

"And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly
walked. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh,
indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature
children of wrath, even as the rest. But God being rich in mercy, because of
His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our
transgressions [sins], made us alive together with Christ." (Eph. 2:1-5) 

Did you know that Jesus went through exactly the same temptations as you? He
knows just what it's like, and He has victory for you. "We do not have a
high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has been
tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore draw near
with confidence to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and may
find grace to help in time of need." (Heb. 4:15-16) 

Jesus really does care for you and always has. He's not only willing to take
away all of your guilt and shame, but if you will turn to Him with your
heart, turning away from all you know to be wrong, He will give you a new
life. That means not just turning from homosexuality, but from anything that
holds you back from giving everything to the Lord: drinking, anger, hate,
unforgiveness, love of money, lying... all those things. It may sound too
simple, but the testimony of those who were once bound by homosexuality can
confirm that the Lord is telling the truth. 

"As I discovered the intense, intimate love of God for ME, I was set free
from that consuming drive which had held me a slave to perversion."4 

"I have truly come out now. I have come out from the hell I was living. I
have come out of the gay closet. And that's what it was - a closet. a dark,
closed-in, cluttered, confusing life-style - from which there is only one
exit. That exit is Jesus and He has set me free."5

Does all this sound too foolish and too simple for such a deep problem? Then
you haven't seen the power of God. "For the word of the cross is to those
who are perishing foolishness, but to us who are being saved it is the power
of God. the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is
stronger than men." (I Cor. 1:18,25) I'm not saying it's going to be easy.
It will probably be a battle all the way, but Jesus came to us and went
through horror, overcoming the enemy so that we could live life at peace
with God once again. Don't try to hide from Him. He can change your heart
and your life if you will only yield to Him. He really cares about you, but
if you continue to let yourself be dragged around by your desires, you will
destroy yourself in this life and, in the end, you will stand before a God
from whom you can find no hiding place. There is still time, and still hope.
It's not too late for anyone who is really serious. Reach out to Jesus. He's
waiting for you. 




Do You Want Help? 

There are concerned people who know what you're going through and know how
to help. Many of them have been set free from homosexuality themselves and
would love to help you in any way that they could. If you or someone you
love is struggling with homosexuality, you can receive helpful literature or
counseling. Just write one of the groups listed below. We love you! 

Exodus International
P. O. Box 540119
Orlando, FL 32854

Exodus Europe
CP 6, CH-1239
Collex, SWITZERLAND

True Freedom Trust
P. O. Box 13
Prenton, Wirral
CH43 6BY UK

Exodus Asia Pacific
P. O. Box 1882
4064 Milton
Queensland, AUSTRALIA
 

Outpost 
P.O. Box 15263
Minneapolis, MN 55415
(612) 827-1419 

Love In Action 
P.O. Box 753307
Memphis, TN 38175


Sy & Karen Rogers 
c/o Steiger International
P.O. Box 1186
Northampton, MA 01060





A Word To the Church 

Jesus said that He didn't come for the healthy, but for the sick. However,
it seems that the only people wanted in some churches are those who "have it
all together." Please don't shy away from those who are struggling with
these kinds of desires. They're sometimes made to feel like social "lepers"
because of the pride and aloofness of others in the church, and so are
driven away. We are our brother's keepers, and we are to "Restore such a one
in a spirit of gentleness." (Gal. 6:1) 

Remember that "Whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he
has become guilty of all. So speak and so act, as those who are to be judged
by the law of liberty. For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown
on mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment." (James 2:10, 12-13) Let's be
grateful that we're under mercy, and learn to extend it to others. 








1) Proverbs 14:13
2) Two of Me, by David Wilkerson, p.7.
3) Ibid., p.9.
4) The Man In the Mirror, by Sy Rogers
5) How I Came Out, M. P.









Martin Bennett, 2/21/2007 

 	




Mary
<http://lastdaysministries.org/Articles/1000030834/Last_Days_Ministries/LDM/
Discipleship_Teachings/Mary_of_Nazareth.aspx> of Nazareth	
Article of the life of Mary More
<http://lastdaysministries.org/Articles/1000030834/Last_Days_Ministries/LDM/
Discipleship_Teachings/Mary_of_Nazareth.aspx> ... 	
Melody Green	

Zeal:
<http://lastdaysministries.org/Articles/1000008658/Last_Days_Ministries/LDM/
Discipleship_Teachings/Zeal_Love_Ablaze.aspx> Love Ablaze!	
Enoch had prophesied, saying, "Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of
His holy ones." I More
<http://lastdaysministries.org/Articles/1000008658/Last_Days_Ministries/LDM/
Discipleship_Teachings/Zeal_Love_Ablaze.aspx> ... 	
Leonard Ravenhill	

Your
<http://lastdaysministries.org/Articles/1000008657/Last_Days_Ministries/LDM/
Discipleship_Teachings/Your_Day_In.aspx> Day In Court	
In a very brief and very brilliant biography of a famous English preacher,
one of the greatest preachers that ever preached in America or England, it
says that he had some very strange habits. More
<http://lastdaysministries.org/Articles/1000008657/Last_Days_Ministries/LDM/
Discipleship_Teachings/Your_Day_In.aspx> ... 	
Leonard Ravenhill	

You
<http://lastdaysministries.org/Articles/1000008656/Last_Days_Ministries/LDM/
Discipleship_Teachings/You_Are_A.aspx> Are A Dangerous Generation	
So it is with your generation. More
<http://lastdaysministries.org/Articles/1000008656/Last_Days_Ministries/LDM/
Discipleship_Teachings/You_Are_A.aspx> ... 	
Melody Green	

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From timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com  Sun Nov  9 22:04:40 2008
From: timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com (Frank Lordi)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 14:04:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
In-Reply-To: <9F16BFC50C664EFCBBAFE73E18FBE86C@Alan>
Message-ID: <836730.23922.qm@web51906.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Well said Alan;
Frank


--- On Sun, 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:

> From: Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
> To: "Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 4:28 PM
> Julie,
> I meant what I said.  What I posted is my last comment.  I
> will, however, close this by pointing out that ideally, as
> Christians we love the sinner but hate the sin.  We should,
> lovingly, try to bring homosexuals out of their lifestyle. 
> JMO.
> 
> 
> +-+-+-
> 
>    For he who has died has been freed from sin. 
>  Romans 6:7
> ~~~
> 
> Alan D Wheeler
> awheeler at neb.rr.com
> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
> Skype: redwheel1
> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern
> time at www.theqonline.net
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Julie C. Vogt"
> <jcvogt at pressenter.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and
> religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 2:28 PM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
> 
> 
> > Alan, this is the bad thing:  We know what the bible
> says about that and if 
> > they know it, all they really feel is the church's
> rejection of them.  We 
> > have to love people where they are and that means
> really trying to help them 
> > fight their battles with homosexuality or whatever the
> thing is.  We do that 
> > when it comes to other things.  Plus I really think
> it's been made such a 
> > mess that the Scripture that says, "God shall
> separate the wheat from the 
> > tariffs," is there for a reason.  Only God can
> fix it now.
> > 
> > Can we legislate the love of God in those who
> don't have it or make people 
> > go the way we know God knows they should when all they
> feel is rejection? 
> > These are things I think about now.
> > 
> > I think gays and lesbians should have a civil union,
> not marriage, because 
> > pretty soon we're going to have a problem with
> "common law" couples and all 
> > that. We can't make ourselves God in governing
> other people's lives.
> > 
> > When I first got saved in the'70's, if people
> wore slacks in the 
> > African-American churches, or even mixed
> congregations, people were quick to 
> > quote that thou shall not wear clothes pertaining to a
> man.  Well, there's a 
> > difference between man's pants and women's
> pants.  Now time has passed and 
> > people are finding now that God deals with people a
> whole lot better than 
> > people do.  I wear slacks or pant suits myself.  I
> don't like to be moving 
> > around on a piano bench and having to pull at my
> dress, but God still loves 
> > me and has used me, particularly in music.
> > 
> > I don't know if you tune to top 40 stations at
> all, but last summer there 
> > was a song out by Katy Perry:
> > 
> > "I kissed a girl and I like it.
> > Hope my boy-friend don't mind it."
> > 
> > And then she talks of it not meaning she's in love
> tonight.  Because of 
> > rejection, they're going to push as hard as we do.
>  God has to intervene in 
> > this.
> > 
> > 
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Alan Wheeler"
> <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
> > To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and
> religion" 
> > <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> > Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 12:31 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
> > 
> > 
> >> At the same time, homosexuality is called a sin
> and abomination by God. 
> >> So you think we should allow people to continue to
> sin against God?
> >>
> >>
> >> +-+-+-
> >>
> >>   We know that all things work together for good
> for those who love God, 
> >> to those
> >> who are called according to his purpose.
> >> Romans 8:28
> >> ~~~
> >>
> >> Alan D Wheeler
> >> awheeler at neb.rr.com
> >> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
> >> Skype: redwheel1
> >> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM
> eastern time at 
> >> www.theqonline.net
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
> >> From: "Beth"
> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> >> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith
> and religion" 
> >> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> >> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:44 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
> >>
> >>
> >>>I would have toagree with Julie.  Marriage is
> about love, not
> >>> procreative reasons only.  I've known
> friends who've gotten married as
> >>> nonprocreative peoples.  Also, has anybody
> thought that marriage
> >>> should at least be for those that can
> participate in it as well?
> >>> Also, if we have bans on same-sex marriage,
> think of it this way: we
> >>> are forcing religion on the people, which God
> really doesn't want us
> >>> to do.  To be Christ-like is not to shove God
> down the throats of
> >>> those who don't know him, but to spread
> God's love to them, to let
> >>> them be free people.
> >>> Beth
> >>>
> >>> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler
> <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
> >>>> Beth,
> >>>> I gently disagree with you.  Marriage was
> designed by God to be between 
> >>>> a
> >>>> man and a woman.  Don't take issue
> because I said it.  Study the Bible 
> >>>> and
> >>>> if you still don't like it, then you
> have to take it up with God.  It 
> >>>> was
> >>>> His idea to begin with, not man's.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> +-+-+-
> >>>>
> >>>>    The LORD is my strength and song, and
> he is become my salvation: he 
> >>>> is my
> >>>> God, and I will prepare him an
> >>>>  habitation; my father's God, and I
> will exalt him.
> >>>>  Exodus 15:2
> >>>> ~~~
> >>>>
> >>>> Alan D Wheeler
> >>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
> >>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
> >>>> Skype: redwheel1
> >>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM
> to 1 PM eastern time at
> >>>> www.theqonline.net
> >>>>
> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>> From: "Beth"
> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> >>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of
> faith and religion"
> >>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> >>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 7:29 AM
> >>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False
> Accusations
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>I don't care if Obama's
> half-black.  God's people will come to
> >>>>> understand a few things:
> >>>>> 1. Marriage, for example, is not
> between "one man and one woman".  It
> >>>>> is between two able parties, same o
> different sex, that are actually
> >>>>> willing to stay together.  Our high
> divorce rate of heterosexual
> >>>>> couples mostly is bad for our children
> herein America.
> >>>>> 2. Abortion should never happen.  If
> it's something that has to do
> >>>>> with the mother's life and health,
> then that's the only exception.
> >>>>> But rape and birth control reasons are
> not good ones.
> >>>>> 3. Blind people can and wwill have
> equal rights to vote, gain security
> >>>>> benefits, and so on.  Yes, Obama's
> the most liberal, but we need him.
> >>>>> Maybe he's a lot more Christian
> than Bush was.  But God's people must
> >>>>> not be against him.  I'm a
> Catholic, and I'm also a liberal as well.
> >>>>> Obama has also beat Kennedy by so many
> years.  ANything having to do
> >>>>> with race is out as far as I'm
> concerned.  Next, what will happen when
> >>>>> a woman is in the White House?  What
> about a blind woman? lol
> >>>>> Beth
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 11/8/08, Linda Mentink
> <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
> >>>>>> Hi Julie,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I'm sorry, too.  I'm not
> against our president elect because he's
> >>>>>> black.  Fact is, he's half
> black.  That's neither here nor
> >>>>>> there.  It's mainly because
> he's the most liberal of all in Congress,
> >>>>>> and I believe that a lot of our
> rights will be taken away once he is
> >>>>>> sworn in.  We'll see what
> happens, but I'm praying for him, and all
> >>>>>> the rest in authority over us.  I
> sent those things to you because I
> >>>>>> knew you wouldn't find out
> from the mainstream media.  But the
> >>>>>> election has made history, and
> God's people need to be more vigilent 
> >>>>>> than
> >>>>>> ever.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Blessings,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Linda
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> At 03:33 PM 11/8/2008, you wrote:
> >>>>>>>It happened by accident.  When
> you didn't stop attacking in my
> >>>>>>>in-box--those of you who did
> it--people of other races by way of our
> >>>>>>>new President-elect, I wrote
> what I wrote.  Now you know how false
> >>>>>>>accusations hurt everybody. 
> Because of one man the African-American
> >>>>>>>Church, and people who attend
> them, have been under tremendous
> >>>>>>>attack ever since last March
> with no let-up.  Ever since I began
> >>>>>>>attending and became saved in
> African-American churches in 1972,
> >>>>>>>I've heard dirty, dirty
> comments like:  "they just do in their
> >>>>>>>church what they did in the
> slave days."  In the slave days,
> >>>>>>>African-Americans weren't
> permitted to know anything of the Bible
> >>>>>>>but "Servants obey your
> masters in the Lord for this is right.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>If people say what people have
> said about one another's churches
> >>>>>>>ever since last March,
> referring to us as blind people, we'd be up
> >>>>>>>in arms.  Let us all be more
> careful.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>It hit me like a thunderbolt
> while I was playing piano at a senior
> >>>>>>>citizens building today why you
> all were upset.  And as upset as you
> >>>>>>>were last Thursday night,
> Linda, I was that upset one month ago when
> >>>>>>>I read what you particularly
> sent me privately at 5:00 on a Sunday
> >>>>>>>morning while  I was getting
> ready for church.  I'm sorry and maybe
> >>>>>>>we can understand one another
> better now.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>  has been
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>"Loyalty to petrified
> opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a
> >>>>>>>human soul," American
> Humorist Mark Twain
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>"An attack on one of us is
> an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth
> >>>>>>>Jernigan, Immediate Past
> President, National Federation of the Blind
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>"A brother offended is
> harder to be won than a strong city: and
> >>>>>>>their contentions are like the
> bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>"Faith is the ability to
> see God in the dark.," (unknown)
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>"No one can do it for us
> but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push,
> >>>>>>> 1976.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>"With proper training,
> development, and opportunity, blindness can
> >>>>>>>be reduced to the level of a
> physical nuisance or characteristic,"
> >>>>>>>the Late Dr. Kenneth Jernigan,
> Past President, National Federation
> >>>>>>>of the Blind.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Julie Vogt or
> jcvogt at pressenter.com
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>_______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>Faith-talk mailing list
> >>>>>>>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> >>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> >>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your
> list options or get your account info
> >>>>>>>for Faith-talk:
> >>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
> >>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> >>>>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list
> options or get your account info for
> >>>>>> Faith-talk:
> >>>>>>
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> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
> >>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> >>>>>
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> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list
> options or get your account info for
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From wesley.burden at verizon.net  Sun Nov  9 22:08:06 2008
From: wesley.burden at verizon.net (WESLEY BURDEN)
Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2008 17:08:06 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Emailing: Last Days Ministries Walking Out Of
	Homosexuality
Message-ID: <0F2203E95DDE4FB7A37C147450916ED7@Buster>

	


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Walking Out Of Homosexuality


By Joe Hallett


 Walking Out of Homosexuality
<http://lastdaysministries.org/Images/content/1000000028/1000030404.jpg> 

What I remember most from my childhood is a deep hunger to be loved. My
father ruled our home with a tyrannical self-interest, and I was the
frequent target of his bitter sarcasm. No matter how I tried to please him,
nothing I ever did was good enough.

Gradually I began to look to other men for love.

For many years I would cut out pictures of men from magazines and hide them
under my mattress. I would take them out at night and create whole worlds in
my head. Worlds where these men would love me and care for me as my father
never did. Initially there was nothing sexual in these fantasies - only a
son desperately longing for the love of a father.

In the real world I had a crush on any man who was kind to me. It didn't
matter whether he was a teacher, a bill collector, or a grocery store clerk
- I was open and vulnerable to anyone that showed an interest in me. When I
discovered sex with some neighborhood boys at the age of ten, it felt
exciting and dangerous at the same time. I didn't want to say no to them
because I'd never received so much attention from anyone in my life. Finally
I was wanted for something, even if I felt dirty and humiliated afterwards.

But I knew it was wrong, and it wasn't just society telling me. Something
deep within me immediately recognized the wrong, but being used sexually was
better than being ignored. I saw myself as unlovable, ugly, and stupid - all
the things my father said about me. I was bad. And the worse I felt about
myself, the more I would return to sex to find that distorted sense of
self-worth.

At first there was the basic need for the love of a father, but then sex
became a way to fill my need for intimacy. Little by little homosexual
relationships became my only way of coping with emptiness. Sex became my
comfort, even though it was a false comfort. In my desperate search for male
love, I unwittingly stepped into a deepening pit of lust and emotional
dependency My high school years became a dark blend of fear and forbidden
desire.

I was terrified. What if someone knew? What if someone found out? I felt so
different from everyone else. I knew the gay jokes and the disgust that
society heaped upon "them" - so I hid inside myself. I tried to be noticed
for my music, my humor, or for anything other than sex. My heartfelt desire
was to be acknowledged as a person, yet casual sex only deepened my
suspicion that I was less than nothing.




A New Kind Of Freedom


When I finally left home to go to college, something unexpected happened.
For a brief moment, I was cut free from my past. There was no one there who
knew where I'd been, or what I was. My slate had been wiped clean - at least
as far as other people were concerned.

Little did I know the scene was set for me to have a head-on collision with
authentic Christianity. I had grown up in a "Christian" home - or so I
thought. My family went to church every Sunday. I knew where God lived and
what kind of people He hung out with, but I didn't know Him.

At college, some of the people I met told me God was not an all-powerful
deity waiting to squish me like some kind of bug under His foot. They said
Christianity wasn't a dry system of rules but a living, breathing
relationship between me and the living God!

As a child I'd learned that God was distant and unreachable, yet here was a
God who knew me better than I knew myself - and still loved me. If I reached
out and took the gift of His love, He would cleanse me from all the sickness
of my past.

I could not resist such love. I asked God into my life.



Falling Short Of The Glory Of God


Even though I had accepted Christ, I still refused to leave the homosexual
lifestyle. Since I didn't know how to separate myself from it, I decided God
would just have to accept me the way I was. Thus began the war between my
love for God and my desire for homosexual relationships.

After two years of "living on the fence" - desiring God but also desiring
men - I left college and moved to Minneapolis. It was a sort of a "Mecca"
for homosexuals in the Midwest, and seemed like a safe place for me to live.

As we drove into the city for the first time, my aunt pointed out a gay bar
and told me I would do well to avoid it. Unwittingly, she provided the
answer to my most pressing question. I had arrived. Freedom was mine, and I
threw myself into the gay world with full abandon. I belonged. I fit in.

At first I felt guilty, but gradually my conscience became quieter and
duller. I convinced myself that it didn't matter how you loved, all that
mattered was that you did love. Rules and regulations seemed to destroy the
freedom love could bring. I continually told myself it was okay to be a
homosexual.

I dove deeper and deeper into sin. I didn't realize I was drowning. Love and
intimacy were elusive, but sex was available and cheap. The men were
different - but the situation was the same. I was a tool to be used, not a
person. I would go out in search of love, but time and time again I would
return knowing that I was only desired for how well I could perform.

To the world, I was just another homosexual on the street. But God continued
to keep the small flame in my heart burning.



A Second Chance


After living in Minneapolis and struggling for three years with student
loans and other debts, I decided to join the army. My family thought I was
crazy, but I was still on a desperate search for acceptance. I wanted to
belong somewhere.

The Army sent me to a unit in Germany, and six months later I auditioned to
sing with the Army Chorus in Europe. I was accepted and soon settled into my
new assignment in Heidelberg.

I would like to say that I didn't continue in the gay lifestyle, but I did.
Here I met a German named Claus and began my second live-in relationship. I
didn't think life could get any better. I was singing before huge audiences
in Europe and I was loved by a beautiful man. I had a life. I finally
belonged.

But a strange thing was taking place. Even though I had the life I'd always
dreamed of, I was growing increasingly restless. It was just about that time
that the Lord sent an ambassador of His grace into my life. Actually, she
was more like the "hound of heaven!" Her name was Debbie.

After many lengthy discussions about the Lord, Debbie began to invite me to
her church. The first time, I turned her down. The following week she called
again, and I made some excuse. But she continued to come to the barracks
every Sunday morning. One month, two months, three months, four months went
by - still she remained faithful. Finally, in the fifth month, I accepted
her invitation. To be honest, I did this more out of frustration than from
any real desire to go.

But her church was different from anything I'd ever known before. The people
were truly friendly, and the service was alive -not so bound in ritual. That
morning, an intense hunger for God awoke in me. I came away desiring to know
the Lord in a new way.

So I began to go to church.




But He Is Strong


Yet I continually complained about having to give up the thing I desired
most. One day before Sunday School class, I again rehearsed my complaint
against God: If homosexuality was sin, then why didn't He take it away?
After all, God was more than powerful enough to deal with my sin! I accused
Him of not doing His part to deliver me from my struggle.

But that day the class was reading from the book of Jeremiah, and when it
came my turn to read the words leapt off the page: " Why has my pain been
perpetual and my wound incurable, refusing to be healed? Wilt Thou indeed be
to me like a deceptive stream with water that is unreliable? Therefore, thus
says the Lord: 'If you return, then I will restore you - before Me you will
stand; and if you extract the precious from the worthless, you will become
My spokesman." (Jer. 15:18,19)

The Spirit of God had rebuked me with my own mouth! I felt as if He had just
dunked me in cold water. I was severely shaken, and began to pray in earnest
that God would give me the desire to leave homosexuality behind for good.



No One Can Serve Two Masters


I knew I could no longer serve both God and my desire. Matthew 6:24 became
the verse I couldn't forget: "No one can serve two masters; for either he
will hate the one and love the other, or he will hold to one and despise the
other... "

But I didn't know how to change! I loved men. Everything about them
attracted me - how could I give them up? I was so weak. I prayed that God
would just give me the desire to leave Claus. That was all I had the
strength to pray.

Two months later, while sitting alone in a gay bar in Berlin, I began to
reflect on my life. None of my homosexual relationships had brought me
closer to my true objective: an intimate loving relationship with a man.

I confessed my sin to God that day. I admitted that I had messed up my life
and my sexuality. I vowed that, if He would change me, I would follow Him.
But my vow was conditional. I told God that if He didn't change me by the
end of two years, I was going back into homosexuality.

That day I began to walk a new way - but at first I stumbled badly. I fell
many times, but eventually I did succeed in laying my sexual behavior down.
But I was still terrified of being left alone. That fear dominated my every
waking moment. Who would be my friend without me somehow "paying" them?

In answer to my terrifying fear of loneliness, God immediately began to
provide the love and friendship I so desperately needed. He gave me a
wonderful friend, Julia. She taught me about God, and we grew together by
leaps and bounds. She even helped me do really gut-wrenching things like
going to my lover's house and moving all my things. God knew I could never
have done that alone, so He gave me a Christian friend to strengthen me in
my weakness.

After that the Lord brought godly men into my life - men who demonstrated
the pure love and acceptance I so desperately needed. These men put aside
their own fears about reaching out to a man struggling with homosexuality.
Thank God for their courage and unconditional love!

I'm sad to say many Christians are afraid to reach out to those trying to
leave the gay lifestyle. It's true many homosexuals don't know how to relate
to men on a non-sexual basis - but how will they learn if no one reaches out
to them with real love and friendship?

Relationships with Christian brothers have helped me to walk in the light of
God, and I know that will be true for others. The need for male love lures
most men into homosexuality, and only the unconditional love of God's people
will help lead them out of that desperate loneliness.



One Day At A Time


Laying down sinful desires is a very long process.

Although I'd given up the outward show of homosexuality in Germany, there
was much I hadn't released. I still harbored a small hope that God would
someday change His mind and make homosexuality okay!

Not many of us are willing to acknowledge the fact that it may take time to
change. We live in an age where we're taught to want everything, and want it
now! Everyone demands instant cures and easy answers. But sometimes those
answers are not instantly forthcoming.

Too many people coming out of the gay lifestyle echo the same sentiment: "If
Exodus or Outpost can't 'cure' me of homosexuality in six months, then
forget it!" Each time I hear that I'm reminded of the very words I spoke to
God back in Berlin.

Some people think you're not really saved if you still struggle with
homosexual desire, but I don't believe that's true. All Christians struggle
with the temptation to sin. We need to realize that a salvation experience
is not a pre-frontal lobotomy or a substitute for exercising personal
discipline. God does bring change, but not always instantaneously. And
contrary to some popular belief, godly change does not always come about
without pain or struggle.



A Tree Of Righteousness


A growing percentage of Christians, and even many unbelievers, think that
believing in Christ should put an end to our struggle with sin.

But that is a lie.

God is interested in something much more important than our comfort - He is
intent upon developing His eternal character within us. And He uses our
daily struggles with the flesh to shape and define that character. God can
and does use struggle and conflict to bring forth His glory in us.

As A. H. Strong once wrote:

"A student asked the president of his school whether he could take a shorter
course than the one prescribed.

"Oh yes," replied the president. "But then it depends on what you want to
be. When God wants to make an oak, He takes a hundred years. But when He
wants to make a squash, He takes six months."

I hope you want to be an oak.



Seeking God For Comfort


Although my sexual liaisons with men ended seven years ago, I am still
imperfect.

When I give in to despair or refuse to seek God for comfort, then I find
myself most vulnerable to my old romantic dreams. My fleshly desires still
continue to war against my desire for the peace and righteousness of God.

Most of us want to be able to switch off our sinful natures like we switch
off a light bulb - but I don't think that's a very realistic attitude
towards salvation. My desperate need for God's strength keeps me incredibly
close to Him. Like a child on a busy city street, I know that if I let go of
His hand - even for a moment - I'll get hit by a bus.

I am still a sinner who struggles with his flesh, but I'm being changed
daily. I used to think Christianity was just God's scoreboard for keeping
track of all my sins. But now that I've walked with the Lord for several
years, I know that Christianity simply means total dependence on the love
and forgiving mercy of my Father in heaven.

"Do not fear, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name; you are
Mine! When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; and through the
rivers they will not over flow you. When you walk through the fire, you will
not be scorched, nor will the flame burn you. For I am the Lord your God,
the Holy One of Israel, your Savior." (Is. 43:1-3)



For Your Light Has Come


God's love is reaching out to each one of us through the brokenness of our
hearts and lives. But the question is: Will we trust Him even when it hurts?
In Jesus, I have found Someone that I can give my whole self to - body,
soul, and spirit. In Him I have placed my trust. So now I can say of all men
I am the most fortunate, because I know where my hope lies: Jesus, Jesus,
Jesus.

"Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him." (Rom.
4:7,8)



DO YOU WANT HELP?


There are concerned people who know what you're going through and know how
to help. Many of them have been set free from homosexuality themselves and
would love to help you in any way they can. If you or someone you love is
struggling with homosexuality, you can receive helpful literature,
counseling and possibly information about support groups in your area. Just
write one of the groups listed below. We love you and pray that you will be
willing to reach out for help!

Exodus International
P. O. Box 540119
Orlando, FL 32854

Exodus Europe
CP 6, CH-1239
Collex, SWITZERLAND

True Freedom Trust
P. O. Box 13
Prenton, Wirral
CH43 6BY UK

Exodus Asia Pacific
P. O. Box 1882
4064 Milton
Queensland, AUSTRALIA

Outpost, Inc.
PO Box 22429
Robbinsdale,  MN   55422-0429
763-592-4700
FAX : 763-592-4701
Outpost_inc at email.msn.com

Love In Action 
P.O. Box 753307
Memphis, TN 38175


Sy & Karen Rogers 
c/o Steiger International
P.O. Box 1186
Northampton, MA 01060





Joe Hallet, 2/22/2007 

 	




Mary
<http://lastdaysministries.org/Articles/1000030834/Last_Days_Ministries/LDM/
Discipleship_Teachings/Mary_of_Nazareth.aspx> of Nazareth	
Article of the life of Mary More
<http://lastdaysministries.org/Articles/1000030834/Last_Days_Ministries/LDM/
Discipleship_Teachings/Mary_of_Nazareth.aspx> ... 	
Melody Green	

Zeal:
<http://lastdaysministries.org/Articles/1000008658/Last_Days_Ministries/LDM/
Discipleship_Teachings/Zeal_Love_Ablaze.aspx> Love Ablaze!	
Enoch had prophesied, saying, "Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of
His holy ones." I More
<http://lastdaysministries.org/Articles/1000008658/Last_Days_Ministries/LDM/
Discipleship_Teachings/Zeal_Love_Ablaze.aspx> ... 	
Leonard Ravenhill	

Your
<http://lastdaysministries.org/Articles/1000008657/Last_Days_Ministries/LDM/
Discipleship_Teachings/Your_Day_In.aspx> Day In Court	
In a very brief and very brilliant biography of a famous English preacher,
one of the greatest preachers that ever preached in America or England, it
says that he had some very strange habits. More
<http://lastdaysministries.org/Articles/1000008657/Last_Days_Ministries/LDM/
Discipleship_Teachings/Your_Day_In.aspx> ... 	
Leonard Ravenhill	

You
<http://lastdaysministries.org/Articles/1000008656/Last_Days_Ministries/LDM/
Discipleship_Teachings/You_Are_A.aspx> Are A Dangerous Generation	
So it is with your generation. More
<http://lastdaysministries.org/Articles/1000008656/Last_Days_Ministries/LDM/
Discipleship_Teachings/You_Are_A.aspx> ... 	
Melody Green	

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From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Sun Nov  9 22:55:12 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 16:55:12 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] More about homosexuality.
References: <45DA65A746C4427D84681755CC35CB99@Alan>
	<4383d01d0811091253x2afd9cffu8fc0dcd74995a54d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A47FCC0F45E54368B26B7079783F4B54@your4dacd0ea75>

There is a singer, Melissa Estridge.  Wasn't she artificially inseminated 
with former singer David Crosby's sperm so that she and her Lesbian partner 
could have a child some years ago?  And they split up about a year or two 
afterwards.

I guess it's always nice to say, "If you don't like it, take it up with 
God."  We know God will have the first and last word, but I guess there are 
those of us who will always want to have the first and last word before He 
does, like our words are so important next to the Sovereign One.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 2:53 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] More about homosexuality.


> Allan, this article is severely biased and is hurtful to homosexual
> friends of mine.  Thank God they didn't read this.  To be honest, I
> love my friends, all my friends heterosexual and homosexual.  Every
> kid has the right to two loving parents, but not necessarily a mom and
> a dad.  Gay couples and lesbian couples are still adoptable couples.
> I've seen a lesbian couple that adopted two Cree First Nations
> children.  I saw a gay couple adopt special needs twins who had
> addiction problems.  This country needs to be more progressive and
> stop attacking homosexuals because they are homosexuals.  Before you
> know it, Allan, this country will put blind and visually impaired
> people as well as cognitively disabled people in their places: along
> with the homosexuals, below sighted and heterosexual people.  Before
> you know it, Allan, African Americans will be kicked out of office and
> there will be an assassination attempt on Barack Obama, who I hope
> will reign for eight long and healthy years.  Please watch what you're
> saying!  We're all Christians on this list!  Can't we accept others'
> beliefs and opinions here?  I'm not trying to be psychic and prophetic
> here, but please understand that I am very concerned that this nation
> is going to fall down like Rome did and we won't have a very healthy
> end if you know what I mean.  And not everybody believes in God.  And
> God loves everybody, and even though it is written that homosexuality
> is a sin, attacking homosexuals who are not atracted and refuse to be
> attracted to the opposite sex is wrong.  We cannot an will not attack
> others because they are a different brand of homo sapiens sapiens.
> Beth
>
> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>> I went to www.biblegateway.com to see what I could find about 
>> homosexuality
>> and the bible.  This was among the resources.  So, again I say, and this 
>> is
>> my last comment on the subject, if you disagree that marriage is only for
>> men and women, then your argument is with God.  It's in His book.
>>
>> http://www.faithfacts.org/christ-and-the-culture/gay-rights#marriage
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  Sanctity of Marriage
>> In recent years, the homosexual movement has centered on giving
>> marriage-like benefits to gay couples. Many in the culture have 
>> mistakenly
>> concluded that marriage is merely an institution for the convenience of
>> adults. In actuality, marriage is the bedrock institution for culture to
>> sustain itself through having and nurturing children. There are
>> complementary aspects to a man and woman that are important to the
>> instutution of marriage which go beyond the obvious physical attributes.
>> There are things that a man needs that can only be provided by a woman, 
>> and
>> vice versa.
>>
>> These complementary aspects are important to the relationship of the 
>> couple
>> itself, as well as to the children. One does not have to appeal to 
>> religion
>> to instinctively understand this. Yet statistics verify the structure of 
>> the
>> traditional family as the approach to raising children that gives the 
>> best
>> measurable results. The overwhelming body of social science research 
>> agrees
>> that children do best when raised in homes with married, opposite-sex
>> parents. Every child has the right to both a mom and a dad.
>>
>> Yet we cannot divorce the institution of marriage from its theological
>> roots. We acknowledge that marriage is an institution given by God 
>> (Genesis
>> 2:24). The Creator of the Universe established the relationship between a
>> man and a woman, thus it is a divine institution, not a human one. To 
>> confer
>> marriage-like rights to gays is not the prerogative of people (Matthew
>> 19:6). (This includes civil unions or domestic partnerships, as they are
>> merely marriage by other names.) Defining marriage is the prerogative of
>> God. Whatever may tend to undermine the institution of marriage would 
>> also
>> undermine the authority of God, as well as hurt society.
>>
>> Liberals may argue, "Why should we arbitrarily select only heterosexual
>> couples for marriage? What can it hurt if two homosexuals want to marry?"
>> The answer is surprisingly simple. The institution of marriage between 
>> and
>> man a woman is not, in fact, arbitrary. It's purpose is clear and of 
>> utmost
>> importance to society.
>>
>> David Orland in an article entitled "The Deceit of Gay Marriage" puts it
>> very well. He says:
>>
>>   To justify giving privileges or exemptions or subsidies to some 
>> particular
>> group in society, the benefit of doing so for society at large must first 
>> be
>> shown. With heterosexual marriage, the case is clear enough. Heterosexual
>> marriage is a matter of genuine social interest because the family is
>> essential to society's reproduction. The crux of my argument, in other
>> words, was that married couples receive the benefits they do, not because
>> the state is interested in promoting romantic love, or because the Bible
>> says so or because of the influence of special interest groups but rather
>> because the next generation is something that is and should be of 
>> interest
>> to all of us. And, by definition, this is not a case that can be made for
>> homosexual unions. To that degree, the attempt to turn the question of
>> domestic partnership into a debate about fairness falls flat.
>>
>>   The more persistent supporters of domestic partnership will of course
>> respond to this argument by pointing to the case in which homosexual
>> partners adopt children or, in the case of lesbians, undergo artificial
>> insemination. The intention here is to show that the nuclear family is 
>> found
>> even among homosexual couples and that, to that extent, homosexual unions 
>> do
>> indeed meet the same criterion of social interest as heterosexual ones 
>> and
>> thus should be granted legal status. It is a weak argument and one that
>> ultimately back-fires on those who employ it. This is for two reasons:
>>
>>   First, adoption by homosexual couples is still exceedingly rare and the
>> law-though many are surprised to learn this-is aimed at the general case. 
>> To
>> confer legal benefits on the entire class of would-be homosexual spouses
>> just because some very small minority of this class approximates the 
>> pattern
>> of the nuclear family would be a bit like admitting all applicants to a
>> select university on the grounds that a few of them had been shown to 
>> meet
>> the entrance requirements.
>>
>>   Second, the right of this small minority to the benefits of marriage is
>> dubious in the extreme. Homosexual "families" of whatever type are always
>> and necessarily parasitic on heterosexual ones.
>>
>> Every child has the right to a mom and a dad. See 5 Reasons Why Same-Sex
>> Marriage Harms Children.
>>
>> But homosexuals not only want fair treatment, they are pushing for "Super
>> Rights." According the Paul Cameron of the Family Research Institute:
>>
>>   "Every member of society has a duty to contribute to the commonwealth. 
>> Yet
>> the empirical evidence indicates that those who engage in homosexuality 
>> 1)
>> contribute less and cost more in goods and services, 2) 
>> disproportionately
>> disrupt social functioning, and 3) have few children while being more apt 
>> to
>> harm them. Thus, homosexual practioners not only fail to 'pay for their
>> keep,' but by their negative influence on children, cloud society's 
>> future.
>>
>>   Those who engage in homosexuality seek what they say are 'gay rights." 
>> In
>> reality, they are demanding Super Rights. Super Rights are those 
>> privileges
>> that allow one to ovverride the inalienable rights of other citizens, 
>> such
>> as freedom of speech and association. These Super Rights-which are 
>> conferred
>> by 'non-discrimination,' 'hate crime,' and 'hate speech' laws-allow
>> homosexuals, if they so choose, to endanger or punish those who would
>> exercise their associational rights to avoid them or protect their 
>> children
>> from them.
>>
>>   As an example, empirical studies to date indicate that a male teacher 
>> who
>> practices homosexuality is the most likely kind of teacher to sexually
>> molest students. A principal knowing this may not want to hire a teacher 
>> who
>> declares his homosexual interests. But if that teacher wants the job, his
>> Super Rights trump the associational rights of the principal as well as 
>> the
>> right of students not to experience extra risk (especially since safety 
>> is
>> part of their right to life). Parents renting out one side of their 
>> duplex
>> may not want to place their children at risk by renting to a gay couple. 
>> But
>> if-even on a whim - the homosexuals want the duplex, their Super Rights
>> trump the property and associational rights of the parents as well as 
>> their
>> children's right not to be exposed to potential molestation.
>>
>>   The Super Rights of homosexual practitioners also squelch the right of
>> others to freedom of speech. If a broadcaster opines that homosexual sex 
>> is
>> dangerous, but a homosexual finds such speech 'offensive,' his Super 
>> Rights
>> trump the broadcaster's freedom of speech and the broadcaster may be 
>> fined
>> or imprisoned."
>>
>> The concept of hate crimes seems particularly reprehensible. If one of 
>> your
>> (heterosexual) loved ones is the object of a despicable crime, the
>> perpetrator would receive a lesser punishment than someone who committed 
>> the
>> same act against someone who practices homosexual sex!
>>
>> +-+-+-
>>
>>    He has made clear to you, O man, what is good; and what is desired 
>> from
>> you by the Lord; only doing what is
>>  right, and loving mercy, and walking without pride before your God. 
>> Micah
>> 6:8
>> ~~~
>>
>> Alan D Wheeler
>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>> Skype: redwheel1
>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>> www.theqonline.net
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>


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From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Sun Nov  9 22:56:36 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 16:56:36 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] More about homosexuality.
References: <45DA65A746C4427D84681755CC35CB99@Alan><4383d01d0811091253x2afd9cffu8fc0dcd74995a54d@mail.gmail.com>
	<49D78482454845D2964743B6D56CB656@Buster>
Message-ID: <1F4922AC52A34A5D836698196A7F7C78@your4dacd0ea75>

I agree with you, Wesley.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "WESLEY BURDEN" <wesley.burden at verizon.net>
To: "'Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion'" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 3:53 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] More about homosexuality.


> All I will say about this subject is gog created adam and eve the lord
> didn't create adam and steve.  I don't have a problem with home sexuals or
> anybody god tells us to love the sinner but hate the sin.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On Behalf Of Beth
> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 3:53 PM
> To: Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] More about homosexuality.
>
> Allan, this article is severely biased and is hurtful to homosexual 
> friends
> of mine.  Thank God they didn't read this.  To be honest, I love my 
> friends,
> all my friends heterosexual and homosexual.  Every kid has the right to 
> two
> loving parents, but not necessarily a mom and a dad.  Gay couples and
> lesbian couples are still adoptable couples.
> I've seen a lesbian couple that adopted two Cree First Nations children. 
> I
> saw a gay couple adopt special needs twins who had addiction problems. 
> This
> country needs to be more progressive and stop attacking homosexuals 
> because
> they are homosexuals.  Before you know it, Allan, this country will put
> blind and visually impaired people as well as cognitively disabled people 
> in
> their places: along with the homosexuals, below sighted and heterosexual
> people.  Before you know it, Allan, African Americans will be kicked out 
> of
> office and there will be an assassination attempt on Barack Obama, who I
> hope will reign for eight long and healthy years.  Please watch what 
> you're
> saying!  We're all Christians on this list!  Can't we accept others'
> beliefs and opinions here?  I'm not trying to be psychic and prophetic 
> here,
> but please understand that I am very concerned that this nation is going 
> to
> fall down like Rome did and we won't have a very healthy end if you know
> what I mean.  And not everybody believes in God.  And God loves everybody,
> and even though it is written that homosexuality is a sin, attacking
> homosexuals who are not atracted and refuse to be attracted to the 
> opposite
> sex is wrong.  We cannot an will not attack others because they are a
> different brand of homo sapiens sapiens.
> Beth
>
> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>> I went to www.biblegateway.com to see what I could find about
>> homosexuality and the bible.  This was among the resources.  So, again
>> I say, and this is my last comment on the subject, if you disagree
>> that marriage is only for men and women, then your argument is with God.
> It's in His book.
>>
>> http://www.faithfacts.org/christ-and-the-culture/gay-rights#marriage
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  Sanctity of Marriage
>> In recent years, the homosexual movement has centered on giving
>> marriage-like benefits to gay couples. Many in the culture have
>> mistakenly concluded that marriage is merely an institution for the
>> convenience of adults. In actuality, marriage is the bedrock
>> institution for culture to sustain itself through having and nurturing
>> children. There are complementary aspects to a man and woman that are
>> important to the instutution of marriage which go beyond the obvious
> physical attributes.
>> There are things that a man needs that can only be provided by a
>> woman, and vice versa.
>>
>> These complementary aspects are important to the relationship of the
>> couple itself, as well as to the children. One does not have to appeal
>> to religion to instinctively understand this. Yet statistics verify
>> the structure of the traditional family as the approach to raising
>> children that gives the best measurable results. The overwhelming body
>> of social science research agrees that children do best when raised in
>> homes with married, opposite-sex parents. Every child has the right to
> both a mom and a dad.
>>
>> Yet we cannot divorce the institution of marriage from its theological
>> roots. We acknowledge that marriage is an institution given by God
>> (Genesis 2:24). The Creator of the Universe established the
>> relationship between a man and a woman, thus it is a divine
>> institution, not a human one. To confer marriage-like rights to gays
>> is not the prerogative of people (Matthew 19:6). (This includes civil
>> unions or domestic partnerships, as they are merely marriage by other
>> names.) Defining marriage is the prerogative of God. Whatever may tend
>> to undermine the institution of marriage would also undermine the
> authority of God, as well as hurt society.
>>
>> Liberals may argue, "Why should we arbitrarily select only
>> heterosexual couples for marriage? What can it hurt if two homosexuals
> want to marry?"
>> The answer is surprisingly simple. The institution of marriage between
>> and man a woman is not, in fact, arbitrary. It's purpose is clear and
>> of utmost importance to society.
>>
>> David Orland in an article entitled "The Deceit of Gay Marriage" puts
>> it very well. He says:
>>
>>   To justify giving privileges or exemptions or subsidies to some
>> particular group in society, the benefit of doing so for society at
>> large must first be shown. With heterosexual marriage, the case is
>> clear enough. Heterosexual marriage is a matter of genuine social
>> interest because the family is essential to society's reproduction.
>> The crux of my argument, in other words, was that married couples
>> receive the benefits they do, not because the state is interested in
>> promoting romantic love, or because the Bible says so or because of
>> the influence of special interest groups but rather because the next
>> generation is something that is and should be of interest to all of
>> us. And, by definition, this is not a case that can be made for
>> homosexual unions. To that degree, the attempt to turn the question of
> domestic partnership into a debate about fairness falls flat.
>>
>>   The more persistent supporters of domestic partnership will of
>> course respond to this argument by pointing to the case in which
>> homosexual partners adopt children or, in the case of lesbians,
>> undergo artificial insemination. The intention here is to show that
>> the nuclear family is found even among homosexual couples and that, to
>> that extent, homosexual unions do indeed meet the same criterion of
>> social interest as heterosexual ones and thus should be granted legal
>> status. It is a weak argument and one that ultimately back-fires on those
> who employ it. This is for two reasons:
>>
>>   First, adoption by homosexual couples is still exceedingly rare and
>> the law-though many are surprised to learn this-is aimed at the
>> general case. To confer legal benefits on the entire class of would-be
>> homosexual spouses just because some very small minority of this class
>> approximates the pattern of the nuclear family would be a bit like
>> admitting all applicants to a select university on the grounds that a
>> few of them had been shown to meet the entrance requirements.
>>
>>   Second, the right of this small minority to the benefits of marriage
>> is dubious in the extreme. Homosexual "families" of whatever type are
>> always and necessarily parasitic on heterosexual ones.
>>
>> Every child has the right to a mom and a dad. See 5 Reasons Why
>> Same-Sex Marriage Harms Children.
>>
>> But homosexuals not only want fair treatment, they are pushing for
>> "Super Rights." According the Paul Cameron of the Family Research
> Institute:
>>
>>   "Every member of society has a duty to contribute to the
>> commonwealth. Yet the empirical evidence indicates that those who
>> engage in homosexuality 1) contribute less and cost more in goods and
>> services, 2) disproportionately disrupt social functioning, and 3)
>> have few children while being more apt to harm them. Thus, homosexual
>> practioners not only fail to 'pay for their keep,' but by their negative
> influence on children, cloud society's future.
>>
>>   Those who engage in homosexuality seek what they say are 'gay
>> rights." In reality, they are demanding Super Rights. Super Rights are
>> those privileges that allow one to ovverride the inalienable rights of
>> other citizens, such as freedom of speech and association. These Super
>> Rights-which are conferred by 'non-discrimination,' 'hate crime,' and
>> 'hate speech' laws-allow homosexuals, if they so choose, to endanger
>> or punish those who would exercise their associational rights to avoid
>> them or protect their children from them.
>>
>>   As an example, empirical studies to date indicate that a male
>> teacher who practices homosexuality is the most likely kind of teacher
>> to sexually molest students. A principal knowing this may not want to
>> hire a teacher who declares his homosexual interests. But if that
>> teacher wants the job, his Super Rights trump the associational rights
>> of the principal as well as the right of students not to experience
>> extra risk (especially since safety is part of their right to life).
>> Parents renting out one side of their duplex may not want to place
>> their children at risk by renting to a gay couple. But if-even on a
>> whim - the homosexuals want the duplex, their Super Rights trump the
>> property and associational rights of the parents as well as their
> children's right not to be exposed to potential molestation.
>>
>>   The Super Rights of homosexual practitioners also squelch the right
>> of others to freedom of speech. If a broadcaster opines that
>> homosexual sex is dangerous, but a homosexual finds such speech
>> 'offensive,' his Super Rights trump the broadcaster's freedom of
>> speech and the broadcaster may be fined or imprisoned."
>>
>> The concept of hate crimes seems particularly reprehensible. If one of
>> your
>> (heterosexual) loved ones is the object of a despicable crime, the
>> perpetrator would receive a lesser punishment than someone who
>> committed the same act against someone who practices homosexual sex!
>>
>> +-+-+-
>>
>>    He has made clear to you, O man, what is good; and what is desired
>> from you by the Lord; only doing what is  right, and loving mercy, and
>> walking without pride before your God. Micah
>> 6:8
>> ~~~
>>
>> Alan D Wheeler
>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>> Skype: redwheel1
>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>> www.theqonline.net _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesis
>> loose%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/wesley.burden%40
> verizon.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>


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2:14 PM




From kk3f at msn.com  Sun Nov  9 23:09:32 2008
From: kk3f at msn.com (Pat Gormley)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 18:09:32 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] false accusations
Message-ID: <BAY133-DAV7C5DF97F6C797B9A3FAA2901B0@phx.gbl>

People that favor same sex unions tend not to be very good students of history.  Ancient Greece and Rome both experienced similar breakdowns in society as their civilizations.  You also need to look at actuarial data and those tables indicate that those who engage in alternative lifestyles tend to live 10 to 15 years less than a similarly in tact married couple. I agree with Alan Wheeler in that we hate the sin  but not the sinner.  

From trising at sbcglobal.net  Sun Nov  9 23:25:07 2008
From: trising at sbcglobal.net (trising at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 18:25:07 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Emailing: Last Days Ministries  I'm Gay, O.K.
References: <35A03D458698454A84A02B53EB5728FC@Buster>
Message-ID: <0AE2D4A5152D4796862C6EFB2E88D3AE@nickf1758c2c9d>

That is an absolutely excellent article! All of us sin and fall short of the 
glory of God, whether we are gay or a gossip. Jesus loves all of us and came 
here to die in our place for our sins so we can go to heaven and be with 
him. We will not go there if we do not trust in Him alone as the provider of 
our salvation. People who commit any sin, and that means all of us, deserve 
to be loved, but not to have our sin excused or minimized. It is God's 
design for marriage to be between one man and one woman. we as Christians 
can stand up for what is right, while loving those caught in homosexual sin. 
Giving them special rights is wrong, but so is refusing to talk to them, or 
regarding them as someone God cannot save. 




From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Sun Nov  9 23:29:51 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 17:29:51 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
References: <E9B0A7C28DD444F7ADC7CB300F67830F@your4dacd0ea75><20081109035831.9E797AC853@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net><4383d01d0811090529o40db51do77b90bee606dc92b@mail.gmail.com><34EE51212347460BBC336CEB5D414D5A@Alan><4383d01d0811090844o4496c680xf7c1eb301ac76b6f@mail.gmail.com><F8F4968EFA6F4D5DA9552449802050AF@Alan>
	<4383d01d0811091241x6bcba8fyf245b5a9bae3889c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D4164023B15240B8B103FE8C8419DF3D@Alan>

Never mind.  I keep telling you it is called a sin in the bible...if you don't want to believe that God calls it a sin, I can't say anything to sway you.


+-+-+-

   There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. 
 1 Samuel 2:2
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 2:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations


> We're talking about a country where not everybody believes in God.  We
> Christians are shoving God down the throats of those who don't know
> him.  We need to pray for the homosexuals and those who are
> experiencing a so-called sin ad we need to be nicer to these people
> for God's own sake.
> Beth
> 
> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>> At the same time, homosexuality is called a sin and abomination by God.  So
>> you think we should allow people to continue to sin against God?
>>
>>
>> +-+-+-
>>
>>    We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, to
>> those
>> who are called according to his purpose.
>>  Romans 8:28
>> ~~~
>>
>> Alan D Wheeler
>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>> Skype: redwheel1
>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>> www.theqonline.net
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:44 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>
>>
>>>I would have toagree with Julie.  Marriage is about love, not
>>> procreative reasons only.  I've known friends who've gotten married as
>>> nonprocreative peoples.  Also, has anybody thought that marriage
>>> should at least be for those that can participate in it as well?
>>> Also, if we have bans on same-sex marriage, think of it this way: we
>>> are forcing religion on the people, which God really doesn't want us
>>> to do.  To be Christ-like is not to shove God down the throats of
>>> those who don't know him, but to spread God's love to them, to let
>>> them be free people.
>>> Beth
>>>
>>> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>>> Beth,
>>>> I gently disagree with you.  Marriage was designed by God to be between a
>>>> man and a woman.  Don't take issue because I said it.  Study the Bible
>>>> and
>>>> if you still don't like it, then you have to take it up with God.  It was
>>>> His idea to begin with, not man's.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> +-+-+-
>>>>
>>>>    The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is
>>>> my
>>>> God, and I will prepare him an
>>>>  habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.
>>>>  Exodus 15:2
>>>> ~~~
>>>>
>>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>>> www.theqonline.net
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 7:29 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I don't care if Obama's half-black.  God's people will come to
>>>>> understand a few things:
>>>>> 1. Marriage, for example, is not between "one man and one woman".  It
>>>>> is between two able parties, same o different sex, that are actually
>>>>> willing to stay together.  Our high divorce rate of heterosexual
>>>>> couples mostly is bad for our children herein America.
>>>>> 2. Abortion should never happen.  If it's something that has to do
>>>>> with the mother's life and health, then that's the only exception.
>>>>> But rape and birth control reasons are not good ones.
>>>>> 3. Blind people can and wwill have equal rights to vote, gain security
>>>>> benefits, and so on.  Yes, Obama's the most liberal, but we need him.
>>>>> Maybe he's a lot more Christian than Bush was.  But God's people must
>>>>> not be against him.  I'm a Catholic, and I'm also a liberal as well.
>>>>> Obama has also beat Kennedy by so many years.  ANything having to do
>>>>> with race is out as far as I'm concerned.  Next, what will happen when
>>>>> a woman is in the White House?  What about a blind woman? lol
>>>>> Beth
>>>>>
>>>>> On 11/8/08, Linda Mentink <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Julie,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm sorry, too.  I'm not against our president elect because he's
>>>>>> black.  Fact is, he's half black.  That's neither here nor
>>>>>> there.  It's mainly because he's the most liberal of all in Congress,
>>>>>> and I believe that a lot of our rights will be taken away once he is
>>>>>> sworn in.  We'll see what happens, but I'm praying for him, and all
>>>>>> the rest in authority over us.  I sent those things to you because I
>>>>>> knew you wouldn't find out from the mainstream media.  But the
>>>>>> election has made history, and God's people need to be more vigilent
>>>>>> than
>>>>>> ever.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Blessings,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Linda
>>>>>>
>>>>>> At 03:33 PM 11/8/2008, you wrote:
>>>>>>>It happened by accident.  When you didn't stop attacking in my
>>>>>>>in-box--those of you who did it--people of other races by way of our
>>>>>>>new President-elect, I wrote what I wrote.  Now you know how false
>>>>>>>accusations hurt everybody.  Because of one man the African-American
>>>>>>>Church, and people who attend them, have been under tremendous
>>>>>>>attack ever since last March with no let-up.  Ever since I began
>>>>>>>attending and became saved in African-American churches in 1972,
>>>>>>>I've heard dirty, dirty comments like:  "they just do in their
>>>>>>>church what they did in the slave days."  In the slave days,
>>>>>>>African-Americans weren't permitted to know anything of the Bible
>>>>>>>but "Servants obey your masters in the Lord for this is right.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>If people say what people have said about one another's churches
>>>>>>>ever since last March, referring to us as blind people, we'd be up
>>>>>>>in arms.  Let us all be more careful.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>It hit me like a thunderbolt while I was playing piano at a senior
>>>>>>>citizens building today why you all were upset.  And as upset as you
>>>>>>>were last Thursday night, Linda, I was that upset one month ago when
>>>>>>>I read what you particularly sent me privately at 5:00 on a Sunday
>>>>>>>morning while  I was getting ready for church.  I'm sorry and maybe
>>>>>>>we can understand one another better now.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  has been
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a
>>>>>>>human soul," American Humorist Mark Twain
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth
>>>>>>>Jernigan, Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and
>>>>>>>their contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push,
>>>>>>> 1976.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can
>>>>>>>be reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic,"
>>>>>>>the Late Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation
>>>>>>>of the Blind.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>for Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1776 - Release Date: 11/8/2008
>>>> 6:49 PM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1778 - Release Date: 11/9/2008
>> 2:14 PM
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1778 - Release Date: 11/9/2008 2:14 PM




From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Mon Nov 10 00:05:56 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 18:05:56 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] false accusations
References: <BAY133-DAV7C5DF97F6C797B9A3FAA2901B0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <84BD16CDB7E4479DB37483CA822E15D6@your4dacd0ea75>

I agree with the both of you on that.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Pat Gormley" <kk3f at msn.com>
To: <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 5:09 PM
Subject: [Faith-talk] false accusations


> People that favor same sex unions tend not to be very good students of 
> history.  Ancient Greece and Rome both experienced similar breakdowns in 
> society as their civilizations.  You also need to look at actuarial data 
> and those tables indicate that those who engage in alternative lifestyles 
> tend to live 10 to 15 years less than a similarly in tact married couple. 
> I agree with Alan Wheeler in that we hate the sin  but not the sinner.
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1778 - Release Date: 11/9/2008 
2:14 PM




From bethkats at cox.net  Mon Nov 10 00:17:45 2008
From: bethkats at cox.net (Beth Kats)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 16:17:45 -0800
Subject: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
In-Reply-To: <20081109035831.9E797AC853@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
References: <E9B0A7C28DD444F7ADC7CB300F67830F@your4dacd0ea75>
	<20081109035831.9E797AC853@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
Message-ID: <000901c942c9$c19f92d0$ef956f44@windows6996273>

I agree with you, Linda.  I wasn't pleased with the election.  We all need
to remember that God is in control.  Our Pastor said that God gives us what
we need even though it isn't always what we want.  I need to work on
remembering that God is in control even though his plan is not what we had
hoped.


-----Original Message-----
From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Linda Mentink
Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2008 7:59 PM
To: Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations

Hi Julie,

I'm sorry, too.  I'm not against our president elect because he's 
black.  Fact is, he's half black.  That's neither here nor 
there.  It's mainly because he's the most liberal of all in Congress, 
and I believe that a lot of our rights will be taken away once he is 
sworn in.  We'll see what happens, but I'm praying for him, and all 
the rest in authority over us.  I sent those things to you because I 
knew you wouldn't find out from the mainstream media.  But the 
election has made history, and God's people need to be more vigilent than
ever.

Blessings,

Linda

At 03:33 PM 11/8/2008, you wrote:
>It happened by accident.  When you didn't stop attacking in my 
>in-box--those of you who did it--people of other races by way of our 
>new President-elect, I wrote what I wrote.  Now you know how false 
>accusations hurt everybody.  Because of one man the African-American 
>Church, and people who attend them, have been under tremendous 
>attack ever since last March with no let-up.  Ever since I began 
>attending and became saved in African-American churches in 1972, 
>I've heard dirty, dirty comments like:  "they just do in their 
>church what they did in the slave days."  In the slave days, 
>African-Americans weren't permitted to know anything of the Bible 
>but "Servants obey your masters in the Lord for this is right.
>
>If people say what people have said about one another's churches 
>ever since last March, referring to us as blind people, we'd be up 
>in arms.  Let us all be more careful.
>
>It hit me like a thunderbolt while I was playing piano at a senior 
>citizens building today why you all were upset.  And as upset as you 
>were last Thursday night, Linda, I was that upset one month ago when 
>I read what you particularly sent me privately at 5:00 on a Sunday 
>morning while  I was getting ready for church.  I'm sorry and maybe 
>we can understand one another better now.
>
>  has been
>
>"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a 
>human soul," American Humorist Mark Twain
>
>"An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth 
>Jernigan, Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind
>
>"A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and 
>their contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
>
>"Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>
>"No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push, 1976.
>
>"With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can 
>be reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic," 
>the Late Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation 
>of the Blind.
>
>Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Faith-talk mailing list
>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>for Faith-talk:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40front
iernet.net



_______________________________________________
Faith-talk mailing list
Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Faith-talk:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/bethkats%40cox.n
et

__________ NOD32 3597 (20081108) Information __________

This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
http://www.eset.com





From timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 10 01:17:45 2008
From: timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com (Frank Lordi)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 17:17:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Faith-talk] false accusations
In-Reply-To: <84BD16CDB7E4479DB37483CA822E15D6@your4dacd0ea75>
Message-ID: <655174.6307.qm@web51901.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Rome also saw the widespread use of contraception that reduced birth rates of anyone who could afford or cared to use such measures.



--- On Sun, 11/9/08, Julie C. Vogt <jcvogt at pressenter.com> wrote:

> From: Julie C. Vogt <jcvogt at pressenter.com>
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] false accusations
> To: "Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 7:05 PM
> I agree with the both of you on that.
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pat Gormley"
> <kk3f at msn.com>
> To: <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 5:09 PM
> Subject: [Faith-talk] false accusations
> 
> 
> > People that favor same sex unions tend not to be very
> good students of history.  Ancient Greece and Rome both
> experienced similar breakdowns in society as their
> civilizations.  You also need to look at actuarial data and
> those tables indicate that those who engage in alternative
> lifestyles tend to live 10 to 15 years less than a similarly
> in tact married couple. I agree with Alan Wheeler in that we
> hate the sin  but not the sinner.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Faith-talk mailing list
> > Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> >
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
> account info for Faith-talk:
> >
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
> > 
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1778 - Release
> Date: 11/9/2008 2:14 PM
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
> account info for Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/timber_wolf899%40yahoo.com


      



From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Mon Nov 10 01:30:42 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 19:30:42 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
References: <E9B0A7C28DD444F7ADC7CB300F67830F@your4dacd0ea75><20081109035831.9E797AC853@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net><4383d01d0811090529o40db51do77b90bee606dc92b@mail.gmail.com><34EE51212347460BBC336CEB5D414D5A@Alan><4383d01d0811090844o4496c680xf7c1eb301ac76b6f@mail.gmail.com><F8F4968EFA6F4D5DA9552449802050AF@Alan><4383d01d0811091241x6bcba8fyf245b5a9bae3889c@mail.gmail.com>
	<D4164023B15240B8B103FE8C8419DF3D@Alan>
Message-ID: <487F757DEB394FE3B01F37B426E6124D@your4dacd0ea75>

Beth, and if they believe in God, it's about a real relationship with God, 
not just something to walk in and out of according to whether it suits 
purposes or times are good or bad, and not just a lip service thing.  NOW I 
AM NOT TRYING TO MAKE ANY INSINUATIONS HERE.  You can love an 
unconditionally loving God with conditions and not always be aware of it 
yourself.  The devil doesn't have any new tricks, but new faces.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Alan Wheeler" <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 5:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations


> Never mind.  I keep telling you it is called a sin in the bible...if you 
> don't want to believe that God calls it a sin, I can't say anything to 
> sway you.
>
>
> +-+-+-
>
>   There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither 
> is there any rock like our God.
> 1 Samuel 2:2
> ~~~
>
> Alan D Wheeler
> awheeler at neb.rr.com
> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
> Skype: redwheel1
> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at 
> www.theqonline.net
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 2:41 PM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>
>
>> We're talking about a country where not everybody believes in God.  We
>> Christians are shoving God down the throats of those who don't know
>> him.  We need to pray for the homosexuals and those who are
>> experiencing a so-called sin ad we need to be nicer to these people
>> for God's own sake.
>> Beth
>>
>> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>> At the same time, homosexuality is called a sin and abomination by God. 
>>> So
>>> you think we should allow people to continue to sin against God?
>>>
>>>
>>> +-+-+-
>>>
>>>    We know that all things work together for good for those who love 
>>> God, to
>>> those
>>> who are called according to his purpose.
>>>  Romans 8:28
>>> ~~~
>>>
>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>> www.theqonline.net
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:44 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>
>>>
>>>>I would have toagree with Julie.  Marriage is about love, not
>>>> procreative reasons only.  I've known friends who've gotten married as
>>>> nonprocreative peoples.  Also, has anybody thought that marriage
>>>> should at least be for those that can participate in it as well?
>>>> Also, if we have bans on same-sex marriage, think of it this way: we
>>>> are forcing religion on the people, which God really doesn't want us
>>>> to do.  To be Christ-like is not to shove God down the throats of
>>>> those who don't know him, but to spread God's love to them, to let
>>>> them be free people.
>>>> Beth
>>>>
>>>> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>> Beth,
>>>>> I gently disagree with you.  Marriage was designed by God to be 
>>>>> between a
>>>>> man and a woman.  Don't take issue because I said it.  Study the Bible
>>>>> and
>>>>> if you still don't like it, then you have to take it up with God.  It 
>>>>> was
>>>>> His idea to begin with, not man's.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> +-+-+-
>>>>>
>>>>>    The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he 
>>>>> is
>>>>> my
>>>>> God, and I will prepare him an
>>>>>  habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.
>>>>>  Exodus 15:2
>>>>> ~~~
>>>>>
>>>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>>>> www.theqonline.net
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 7:29 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>I don't care if Obama's half-black.  God's people will come to
>>>>>> understand a few things:
>>>>>> 1. Marriage, for example, is not between "one man and one woman".  It
>>>>>> is between two able parties, same o different sex, that are actually
>>>>>> willing to stay together.  Our high divorce rate of heterosexual
>>>>>> couples mostly is bad for our children herein America.
>>>>>> 2. Abortion should never happen.  If it's something that has to do
>>>>>> with the mother's life and health, then that's the only exception.
>>>>>> But rape and birth control reasons are not good ones.
>>>>>> 3. Blind people can and wwill have equal rights to vote, gain 
>>>>>> security
>>>>>> benefits, and so on.  Yes, Obama's the most liberal, but we need him.
>>>>>> Maybe he's a lot more Christian than Bush was.  But God's people must
>>>>>> not be against him.  I'm a Catholic, and I'm also a liberal as well.
>>>>>> Obama has also beat Kennedy by so many years.  ANything having to do
>>>>>> with race is out as far as I'm concerned.  Next, what will happen 
>>>>>> when
>>>>>> a woman is in the White House?  What about a blind woman? lol
>>>>>> Beth
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/8/08, Linda Mentink <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi Julie,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm sorry, too.  I'm not against our president elect because he's
>>>>>>> black.  Fact is, he's half black.  That's neither here nor
>>>>>>> there.  It's mainly because he's the most liberal of all in 
>>>>>>> Congress,
>>>>>>> and I believe that a lot of our rights will be taken away once he is
>>>>>>> sworn in.  We'll see what happens, but I'm praying for him, and all
>>>>>>> the rest in authority over us.  I sent those things to you because I
>>>>>>> knew you wouldn't find out from the mainstream media.  But the
>>>>>>> election has made history, and God's people need to be more vigilent
>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>> ever.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Blessings,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Linda
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> At 03:33 PM 11/8/2008, you wrote:
>>>>>>>>It happened by accident.  When you didn't stop attacking in my
>>>>>>>>in-box--those of you who did it--people of other races by way of our
>>>>>>>>new President-elect, I wrote what I wrote.  Now you know how false
>>>>>>>>accusations hurt everybody.  Because of one man the African-American
>>>>>>>>Church, and people who attend them, have been under tremendous
>>>>>>>>attack ever since last March with no let-up.  Ever since I began
>>>>>>>>attending and became saved in African-American churches in 1972,
>>>>>>>>I've heard dirty, dirty comments like:  "they just do in their
>>>>>>>>church what they did in the slave days."  In the slave days,
>>>>>>>>African-Americans weren't permitted to know anything of the Bible
>>>>>>>>but "Servants obey your masters in the Lord for this is right.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>If people say what people have said about one another's churches
>>>>>>>>ever since last March, referring to us as blind people, we'd be up
>>>>>>>>in arms.  Let us all be more careful.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>It hit me like a thunderbolt while I was playing piano at a senior
>>>>>>>>citizens building today why you all were upset.  And as upset as you
>>>>>>>>were last Thursday night, Linda, I was that upset one month ago when
>>>>>>>>I read what you particularly sent me privately at 5:00 on a Sunday
>>>>>>>>morning while  I was getting ready for church.  I'm sorry and maybe
>>>>>>>>we can understand one another better now.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  has been
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a
>>>>>>>>human soul," American Humorist Mark Twain
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth
>>>>>>>>Jernigan, Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and
>>>>>>>>their contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. 
>>>>>>>>KJV
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation 
>>>>>>>>Push,
>>>>>>>> 1976.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can
>>>>>>>>be reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic,"
>>>>>>>>the Late Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation
>>>>>>>>of the Blind.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>for Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1776 - Release Date: 
>>>>> 11/8/2008
>>>>> 6:49 PM
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
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>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>
>>>
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>>>
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>>> 11/9/2008
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>>> _______________________________________________
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>>
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
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2:14 PM




From ccook01 at knology.net  Mon Nov 10 01:44:05 2008
From: ccook01 at knology.net (Corey Cook)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 20:44:05 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
In-Reply-To: <D4164023B15240B8B103FE8C8419DF3D@Alan>
References: <E9B0A7C28DD444F7ADC7CB300F67830F@your4dacd0ea75><20081109035831.9E797AC853@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net><4383d01d0811090529o40db51do77b90bee606dc92b@mail.gmail.com><34EE51212347460BBC336CEB5D414D5A@Alan><4383d01d0811090844o4496c680xf7c1eb301ac76b6f@mail.gmail.com><F8F4968EFA6F4D5DA9552449802050AF@Alan><4383d01d0811091241x6bcba8fyf245b5a9bae3889c@mail.gmail.com>
	<D4164023B15240B8B103FE8C8419DF3D@Alan>
Message-ID: <17B22BE1EC2F45149C8C36923C19FEB3@TheCooksPC>

Homosexuality is sin.
Read Romans 1
read first Corinthians 6
Yes we need to love them just as we love all sinners, but it is time to call 
it what it is, and that is sin!
It is a sin that will be the end of this country if we allow it to be 
accepted and embraced.
Not a popular thought, but a true one.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Alan Wheeler" <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 6:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations


> Never mind.  I keep telling you it is called a sin in the bible...if you 
> don't want to believe that God calls it a sin, I can't say anything to 
> sway you.
>
>
> +-+-+-
>
>   There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither 
> is there any rock like our God.
> 1 Samuel 2:2
> ~~~
>
> Alan D Wheeler
> awheeler at neb.rr.com
> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
> Skype: redwheel1
> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at 
> www.theqonline.net
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 2:41 PM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>
>
>> We're talking about a country where not everybody believes in God.  We
>> Christians are shoving God down the throats of those who don't know
>> him.  We need to pray for the homosexuals and those who are
>> experiencing a so-called sin ad we need to be nicer to these people
>> for God's own sake.
>> Beth
>>
>> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>> At the same time, homosexuality is called a sin and abomination by God. 
>>> So
>>> you think we should allow people to continue to sin against God?
>>>
>>>
>>> +-+-+-
>>>
>>>    We know that all things work together for good for those who love 
>>> God, to
>>> those
>>> who are called according to his purpose.
>>>  Romans 8:28
>>> ~~~
>>>
>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>> www.theqonline.net
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:44 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>
>>>
>>>>I would have toagree with Julie.  Marriage is about love, not
>>>> procreative reasons only.  I've known friends who've gotten married as
>>>> nonprocreative peoples.  Also, has anybody thought that marriage
>>>> should at least be for those that can participate in it as well?
>>>> Also, if we have bans on same-sex marriage, think of it this way: we
>>>> are forcing religion on the people, which God really doesn't want us
>>>> to do.  To be Christ-like is not to shove God down the throats of
>>>> those who don't know him, but to spread God's love to them, to let
>>>> them be free people.
>>>> Beth
>>>>
>>>> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>> Beth,
>>>>> I gently disagree with you.  Marriage was designed by God to be 
>>>>> between a
>>>>> man and a woman.  Don't take issue because I said it.  Study the Bible
>>>>> and
>>>>> if you still don't like it, then you have to take it up with God.  It 
>>>>> was
>>>>> His idea to begin with, not man's.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> +-+-+-
>>>>>
>>>>>    The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he 
>>>>> is
>>>>> my
>>>>> God, and I will prepare him an
>>>>>  habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.
>>>>>  Exodus 15:2
>>>>> ~~~
>>>>>
>>>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>>>> www.theqonline.net
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 7:29 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>I don't care if Obama's half-black.  God's people will come to
>>>>>> understand a few things:
>>>>>> 1. Marriage, for example, is not between "one man and one woman".  It
>>>>>> is between two able parties, same o different sex, that are actually
>>>>>> willing to stay together.  Our high divorce rate of heterosexual
>>>>>> couples mostly is bad for our children herein America.
>>>>>> 2. Abortion should never happen.  If it's something that has to do
>>>>>> with the mother's life and health, then that's the only exception.
>>>>>> But rape and birth control reasons are not good ones.
>>>>>> 3. Blind people can and wwill have equal rights to vote, gain 
>>>>>> security
>>>>>> benefits, and so on.  Yes, Obama's the most liberal, but we need him.
>>>>>> Maybe he's a lot more Christian than Bush was.  But God's people must
>>>>>> not be against him.  I'm a Catholic, and I'm also a liberal as well.
>>>>>> Obama has also beat Kennedy by so many years.  ANything having to do
>>>>>> with race is out as far as I'm concerned.  Next, what will happen 
>>>>>> when
>>>>>> a woman is in the White House?  What about a blind woman? lol
>>>>>> Beth
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/8/08, Linda Mentink <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi Julie,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm sorry, too.  I'm not against our president elect because he's
>>>>>>> black.  Fact is, he's half black.  That's neither here nor
>>>>>>> there.  It's mainly because he's the most liberal of all in 
>>>>>>> Congress,
>>>>>>> and I believe that a lot of our rights will be taken away once he is
>>>>>>> sworn in.  We'll see what happens, but I'm praying for him, and all
>>>>>>> the rest in authority over us.  I sent those things to you because I
>>>>>>> knew you wouldn't find out from the mainstream media.  But the
>>>>>>> election has made history, and God's people need to be more vigilent
>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>> ever.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Blessings,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Linda
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> At 03:33 PM 11/8/2008, you wrote:
>>>>>>>>It happened by accident.  When you didn't stop attacking in my
>>>>>>>>in-box--those of you who did it--people of other races by way of our
>>>>>>>>new President-elect, I wrote what I wrote.  Now you know how false
>>>>>>>>accusations hurt everybody.  Because of one man the African-American
>>>>>>>>Church, and people who attend them, have been under tremendous
>>>>>>>>attack ever since last March with no let-up.  Ever since I began
>>>>>>>>attending and became saved in African-American churches in 1972,
>>>>>>>>I've heard dirty, dirty comments like:  "they just do in their
>>>>>>>>church what they did in the slave days."  In the slave days,
>>>>>>>>African-Americans weren't permitted to know anything of the Bible
>>>>>>>>but "Servants obey your masters in the Lord for this is right.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>If people say what people have said about one another's churches
>>>>>>>>ever since last March, referring to us as blind people, we'd be up
>>>>>>>>in arms.  Let us all be more careful.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>It hit me like a thunderbolt while I was playing piano at a senior
>>>>>>>>citizens building today why you all were upset.  And as upset as you
>>>>>>>>were last Thursday night, Linda, I was that upset one month ago when
>>>>>>>>I read what you particularly sent me privately at 5:00 on a Sunday
>>>>>>>>morning while  I was getting ready for church.  I'm sorry and maybe
>>>>>>>>we can understand one another better now.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  has been
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a
>>>>>>>>human soul," American Humorist Mark Twain
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth
>>>>>>>>Jernigan, Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and
>>>>>>>>their contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. 
>>>>>>>>KJV
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation 
>>>>>>>>Push,
>>>>>>>> 1976.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can
>>>>>>>>be reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic,"
>>>>>>>>the Late Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation
>>>>>>>>of the Blind.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>for Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1776 - Release Date: 
>>>>> 11/8/2008
>>>>> 6:49 PM
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1778 - Release Date: 
>>> 11/9/2008
>>> 2:14 PM
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1778 - Release Date: 11/9/2008 
> 2:14 PM
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
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>
Corey Cook 




From ccook01 at knology.net  Mon Nov 10 01:52:39 2008
From: ccook01 at knology.net (Corey Cook)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 20:52:39 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
In-Reply-To: <836730.23922.qm@web51906.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <836730.23922.qm@web51906.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <E381B99E16F14AD8A4BE2DE81980A392@TheCooksPC>

Well said Alan

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Frank Lordi" <timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 5:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations


> Well said Alan;
> Frank
>
>
> --- On Sun, 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> From: Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>> To: "Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion" 
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 4:28 PM
>> Julie,
>> I meant what I said.  What I posted is my last comment.  I
>> will, however, close this by pointing out that ideally, as
>> Christians we love the sinner but hate the sin.  We should,
>> lovingly, try to bring homosexuals out of their lifestyle.
>> JMO.
>>
>>
>> +-+-+-
>>
>>    For he who has died has been freed from sin.
>>  Romans 6:7
>> ~~~
>>
>> Alan D Wheeler
>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>> Skype: redwheel1
>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern
>> time at www.theqonline.net
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Julie C. Vogt"
>> <jcvogt at pressenter.com>
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and
>> religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 2:28 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>
>>
>> > Alan, this is the bad thing:  We know what the bible
>> says about that and if
>> > they know it, all they really feel is the church's
>> rejection of them.  We
>> > have to love people where they are and that means
>> really trying to help them
>> > fight their battles with homosexuality or whatever the
>> thing is.  We do that
>> > when it comes to other things.  Plus I really think
>> it's been made such a
>> > mess that the Scripture that says, "God shall
>> separate the wheat from the
>> > tariffs," is there for a reason.  Only God can
>> fix it now.
>> >
>> > Can we legislate the love of God in those who
>> don't have it or make people
>> > go the way we know God knows they should when all they
>> feel is rejection?
>> > These are things I think about now.
>> >
>> > I think gays and lesbians should have a civil union,
>> not marriage, because
>> > pretty soon we're going to have a problem with
>> "common law" couples and all
>> > that. We can't make ourselves God in governing
>> other people's lives.
>> >
>> > When I first got saved in the'70's, if people
>> wore slacks in the
>> > African-American churches, or even mixed
>> congregations, people were quick to
>> > quote that thou shall not wear clothes pertaining to a
>> man.  Well, there's a
>> > difference between man's pants and women's
>> pants.  Now time has passed and
>> > people are finding now that God deals with people a
>> whole lot better than
>> > people do.  I wear slacks or pant suits myself.  I
>> don't like to be moving
>> > around on a piano bench and having to pull at my
>> dress, but God still loves
>> > me and has used me, particularly in music.
>> >
>> > I don't know if you tune to top 40 stations at
>> all, but last summer there
>> > was a song out by Katy Perry:
>> >
>> > "I kissed a girl and I like it.
>> > Hope my boy-friend don't mind it."
>> >
>> > And then she talks of it not meaning she's in love
>> tonight.  Because of
>> > rejection, they're going to push as hard as we do.
>>  God has to intervene in
>> > this.
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message ----- 
>> > From: "Alan Wheeler"
>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
>> > To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and
>> religion"
>> > <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> > Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 12:31 PM
>> > Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>> >
>> >
>> >> At the same time, homosexuality is called a sin
>> and abomination by God.
>> >> So you think we should allow people to continue to
>> sin against God?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> +-+-+-
>> >>
>> >>   We know that all things work together for good
>> for those who love God,
>> >> to those
>> >> who are called according to his purpose.
>> >> Romans 8:28
>> >> ~~~
>> >>
>> >> Alan D Wheeler
>> >> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>> >> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>> >> Skype: redwheel1
>> >> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM
>> eastern time at
>> >> www.theqonline.net
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> >> From: "Beth"
>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> >> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith
>> and religion"
>> >> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> >> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:44 AM
>> >> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>I would have toagree with Julie.  Marriage is
>> about love, not
>> >>> procreative reasons only.  I've known
>> friends who've gotten married as
>> >>> nonprocreative peoples.  Also, has anybody
>> thought that marriage
>> >>> should at least be for those that can
>> participate in it as well?
>> >>> Also, if we have bans on same-sex marriage,
>> think of it this way: we
>> >>> are forcing religion on the people, which God
>> really doesn't want us
>> >>> to do.  To be Christ-like is not to shove God
>> down the throats of
>> >>> those who don't know him, but to spread
>> God's love to them, to let
>> >>> them be free people.
>> >>> Beth
>> >>>
>> >>> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler
>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>> >>>> Beth,
>> >>>> I gently disagree with you.  Marriage was
>> designed by God to be between
>> >>>> a
>> >>>> man and a woman.  Don't take issue
>> because I said it.  Study the Bible
>> >>>> and
>> >>>> if you still don't like it, then you
>> have to take it up with God.  It
>> >>>> was
>> >>>> His idea to begin with, not man's.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> +-+-+-
>> >>>>
>> >>>>    The LORD is my strength and song, and
>> he is become my salvation: he
>> >>>> is my
>> >>>> God, and I will prepare him an
>> >>>>  habitation; my father's God, and I
>> will exalt him.
>> >>>>  Exodus 15:2
>> >>>> ~~~
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Alan D Wheeler
>> >>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>> >>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>> >>>> Skype: redwheel1
>> >>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM
>> to 1 PM eastern time at
>> >>>> www.theqonline.net
>> >>>>
>> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
>> >>>> From: "Beth"
>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> >>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of
>> faith and religion"
>> >>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> >>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 7:29 AM
>> >>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False
>> Accusations
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>I don't care if Obama's
>> half-black.  God's people will come to
>> >>>>> understand a few things:
>> >>>>> 1. Marriage, for example, is not
>> between "one man and one woman".  It
>> >>>>> is between two able parties, same o
>> different sex, that are actually
>> >>>>> willing to stay together.  Our high
>> divorce rate of heterosexual
>> >>>>> couples mostly is bad for our children
>> herein America.
>> >>>>> 2. Abortion should never happen.  If
>> it's something that has to do
>> >>>>> with the mother's life and health,
>> then that's the only exception.
>> >>>>> But rape and birth control reasons are
>> not good ones.
>> >>>>> 3. Blind people can and wwill have
>> equal rights to vote, gain security
>> >>>>> benefits, and so on.  Yes, Obama's
>> the most liberal, but we need him.
>> >>>>> Maybe he's a lot more Christian
>> than Bush was.  But God's people must
>> >>>>> not be against him.  I'm a
>> Catholic, and I'm also a liberal as well.
>> >>>>> Obama has also beat Kennedy by so many
>> years.  ANything having to do
>> >>>>> with race is out as far as I'm
>> concerned.  Next, what will happen when
>> >>>>> a woman is in the White House?  What
>> about a blind woman? lol
>> >>>>> Beth
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> On 11/8/08, Linda Mentink
>> <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
>> >>>>>> Hi Julie,
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> I'm sorry, too.  I'm not
>> against our president elect because he's
>> >>>>>> black.  Fact is, he's half
>> black.  That's neither here nor
>> >>>>>> there.  It's mainly because
>> he's the most liberal of all in Congress,
>> >>>>>> and I believe that a lot of our
>> rights will be taken away once he is
>> >>>>>> sworn in.  We'll see what
>> happens, but I'm praying for him, and all
>> >>>>>> the rest in authority over us.  I
>> sent those things to you because I
>> >>>>>> knew you wouldn't find out
>> from the mainstream media.  But the
>> >>>>>> election has made history, and
>> God's people need to be more vigilent
>> >>>>>> than
>> >>>>>> ever.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Blessings,
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Linda
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> At 03:33 PM 11/8/2008, you wrote:
>> >>>>>>>It happened by accident.  When
>> you didn't stop attacking in my
>> >>>>>>>in-box--those of you who did
>> it--people of other races by way of our
>> >>>>>>>new President-elect, I wrote
>> what I wrote.  Now you know how false
>> >>>>>>>accusations hurt everybody.
>> Because of one man the African-American
>> >>>>>>>Church, and people who attend
>> them, have been under tremendous
>> >>>>>>>attack ever since last March
>> with no let-up.  Ever since I began
>> >>>>>>>attending and became saved in
>> African-American churches in 1972,
>> >>>>>>>I've heard dirty, dirty
>> comments like:  "they just do in their
>> >>>>>>>church what they did in the
>> slave days."  In the slave days,
>> >>>>>>>African-Americans weren't
>> permitted to know anything of the Bible
>> >>>>>>>but "Servants obey your
>> masters in the Lord for this is right.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>If people say what people have
>> said about one another's churches
>> >>>>>>>ever since last March,
>> referring to us as blind people, we'd be up
>> >>>>>>>in arms.  Let us all be more
>> careful.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>It hit me like a thunderbolt
>> while I was playing piano at a senior
>> >>>>>>>citizens building today why you
>> all were upset.  And as upset as you
>> >>>>>>>were last Thursday night,
>> Linda, I was that upset one month ago when
>> >>>>>>>I read what you particularly
>> sent me privately at 5:00 on a Sunday
>> >>>>>>>morning while  I was getting
>> ready for church.  I'm sorry and maybe
>> >>>>>>>we can understand one another
>> better now.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>  has been
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>"Loyalty to petrified
>> opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a
>> >>>>>>>human soul," American
>> Humorist Mark Twain
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>"An attack on one of us is
>> an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth
>> >>>>>>>Jernigan, Immediate Past
>> President, National Federation of the Blind
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>"A brother offended is
>> harder to be won than a strong city: and
>> >>>>>>>their contentions are like the
>> bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>"Faith is the ability to
>> see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>"No one can do it for us
>> but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push,
>> >>>>>>> 1976.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>"With proper training,
>> development, and opportunity, blindness can
>> >>>>>>>be reduced to the level of a
>> physical nuisance or characteristic,"
>> >>>>>>>the Late Dr. Kenneth Jernigan,
>> Past President, National Federation
>> >>>>>>>of the Blind.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>Julie Vogt or
>> jcvogt at pressenter.com
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>> >>>>>>>Faith-talk mailing list
>> >>>>>>>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> >>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your
>> list options or get your account info
>> >>>>>>>for Faith-talk:
>> >>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> >>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >>>>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list
>> options or get your account info for
>> >>>>>> Faith-talk:
>> >>>>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> >>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >>>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list
>> options or get your account info for
>> >>>>> Faith-talk:
>> >>>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> >>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>> >>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database:
>> 270.9.0/1776 - Release Date:
>> >>>> 11/8/2008
>> >>>> 6:49 PM
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> >>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options
>> or get your account info for
>> >>>> Faith-talk:
>> >>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> >>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or
>> get your account info for
>> >>> Faith-talk:
>> >>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> >> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>> >> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1778 -
>> Release Date: 11/9/2008
>> >> 2:14 PM
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Faith-talk mailing list
>> >> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get
>> your account info for
>> >> Faith-talk:
>> >>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > No virus found in this incoming message.
>> > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>> > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1777 -
>> Release Date: 11/9/2008
>> > 9:53 AM
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Faith-talk mailing list
>> > Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>> account info for Faith-talk:
>> >
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1778 - Release
>> Date: 11/9/2008 2:14 PM
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>> account info for Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/timber_wolf899%40yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>
Corey Cook 




From kk3f at msn.com  Mon Nov 10 02:00:32 2008
From: kk3f at msn.com (Pat Gormley)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 21:00:32 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] false accusations
Message-ID: <BAY133-DAV399AD1DB73AE87D9E8823901A0@phx.gbl>

This thread brought to mind a lengthy discussion a number of us had one night  by the fireplace at the National center between Dr. Maurer, myself and a couple of us who have been trained in the classics and are both very familiar with the Socratic method.  Marc had just read some of the later roman poets such as Catulus, Plautus and Terrence.  Some of the platonic writings also indicate what was going on in Greek society and the Latin poets mentioned earlier Roman society respectively.  There is an amazing parallel between those writings and what's going on today.  I gave him the names of those authors so he could look up their writings the net since a lot of those texts are freely available.  There are quite a number of these writings on disk as well.   

From ccook01 at knology.net  Mon Nov 10 02:01:28 2008
From: ccook01 at knology.net (Corey Cook)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 21:01:28 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] false accusations
In-Reply-To: <BAY133-DAV7C5DF97F6C797B9A3FAA2901B0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY133-DAV7C5DF97F6C797B9A3FAA2901B0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <3DE6C8F59A0A4C4E902D8D50D4BF8043@TheCooksPC>

Well put Pat.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Pat Gormley" <kk3f at msn.com>
To: <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 6:09 PM
Subject: [Faith-talk] false accusations


> People that favor same sex unions tend not to be very good students of 
> history.  Ancient Greece and Rome both experienced similar breakdowns in 
> society as their civilizations.  You also need to look at actuarial data 
> and those tables indicate that those who engage in alternative lifestyles 
> tend to live 10 to 15 years less than a similarly in tact married couple. 
> I agree with Alan Wheeler in that we hate the sin  but not the sinner.
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>
Corey Cook 




From timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 10 02:03:31 2008
From: timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com (Frank Lordi)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 18:03:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
In-Reply-To: <17B22BE1EC2F45149C8C36923C19FEB3@TheCooksPC>
Message-ID: <356348.90200.qm@web51909.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

you are speakin gof the concept of 'blood guilt'?

This so often brought grief to Isreal, no?



--- On Sun, 11/9/08, Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net> wrote:

> From: Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net>
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
> To: "Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 8:44 PM
> Homosexuality is sin.
> Read Romans 1
> read first Corinthians 6
> Yes we need to love them just as we love all sinners, but
> it is time to call it what it is, and that is sin!
> It is a sin that will be the end of this country if we
> allow it to be accepted and embraced.
> Not a popular thought, but a true one.
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Wheeler"
> <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and
> religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 6:29 PM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
> 
> 
> > Never mind.  I keep telling you it is called a sin in
> the bible...if you don't want to believe that God calls
> it a sin, I can't say anything to sway you.
> > 
> > 
> > +-+-+-
> > 
> >   There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none
> beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
> > 1 Samuel 2:2
> > ~~~
> > 
> > Alan D Wheeler
> > awheeler at neb.rr.com
> > IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
> > Skype: redwheel1
> > Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM
> eastern time at www.theqonline.net
> > 
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beth"
> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> > To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and
> religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> > Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 2:41 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
> > 
> > 
> >> We're talking about a country where not
> everybody believes in God.  We
> >> Christians are shoving God down the throats of
> those who don't know
> >> him.  We need to pray for the homosexuals and
> those who are
> >> experiencing a so-called sin ad we need to be
> nicer to these people
> >> for God's own sake.
> >> Beth
> >> 
> >> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler
> <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
> >>> At the same time, homosexuality is called a
> sin and abomination by God. So
> >>> you think we should allow people to continue
> to sin against God?
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> +-+-+-
> >>> 
> >>>    We know that all things work together for
> good for those who love God, to
> >>> those
> >>> who are called according to his purpose.
> >>>  Romans 8:28
> >>> ~~~
> >>> 
> >>> Alan D Wheeler
> >>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
> >>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
> >>> Skype: redwheel1
> >>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1
> PM eastern time at
> >>> www.theqonline.net
> >>> 
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Beth"
> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> >>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of
> faith and religion"
> >>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> >>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:44 AM
> >>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>>> I would have toagree with Julie.  Marriage
> is about love, not
> >>>> procreative reasons only.  I've known
> friends who've gotten married as
> >>>> nonprocreative peoples.  Also, has anybody
> thought that marriage
> >>>> should at least be for those that can
> participate in it as well?
> >>>> Also, if we have bans on same-sex
> marriage, think of it this way: we
> >>>> are forcing religion on the people, which
> God really doesn't want us
> >>>> to do.  To be Christ-like is not to shove
> God down the throats of
> >>>> those who don't know him, but to
> spread God's love to them, to let
> >>>> them be free people.
> >>>> Beth
> >>>> 
> >>>> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler
> <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
> >>>>> Beth,
> >>>>> I gently disagree with you.  Marriage
> was designed by God to be between a
> >>>>> man and a woman.  Don't take issue
> because I said it.  Study the Bible
> >>>>> and
> >>>>> if you still don't like it, then
> you have to take it up with God.  It was
> >>>>> His idea to begin with, not man's.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> +-+-+-
> >>>>> 
> >>>>>    The LORD is my strength and song,
> and he is become my salvation: he is
> >>>>> my
> >>>>> God, and I will prepare him an
> >>>>>  habitation; my father's God, and
> I will exalt him.
> >>>>>  Exodus 15:2
> >>>>> ~~~
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> Alan D Wheeler
> >>>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
> >>>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
> >>>>> Skype: redwheel1
> >>>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10
> AM to 1 PM eastern time at
> >>>>> www.theqonline.net
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>> From: "Beth"
> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> >>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the
> discussion of faith and religion"
> >>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 7:29
> AM
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False
> Accusations
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>>> I don't care if Obama's
> half-black.  God's people will come to
> >>>>>> understand a few things:
> >>>>>> 1. Marriage, for example, is not
> between "one man and one woman".  It
> >>>>>> is between two able parties, same
> o different sex, that are actually
> >>>>>> willing to stay together.  Our
> high divorce rate of heterosexual
> >>>>>> couples mostly is bad for our
> children herein America.
> >>>>>> 2. Abortion should never happen. 
> If it's something that has to do
> >>>>>> with the mother's life and
> health, then that's the only exception.
> >>>>>> But rape and birth control reasons
> are not good ones.
> >>>>>> 3. Blind people can and wwill have
> equal rights to vote, gain security
> >>>>>> benefits, and so on.  Yes,
> Obama's the most liberal, but we need him.
> >>>>>> Maybe he's a lot more
> Christian than Bush was.  But God's people must
> >>>>>> not be against him.  I'm a
> Catholic, and I'm also a liberal as well.
> >>>>>> Obama has also beat Kennedy by so
> many years.  ANything having to do
> >>>>>> with race is out as far as I'm
> concerned.  Next, what will happen when
> >>>>>> a woman is in the White House? 
> What about a blind woman? lol
> >>>>>> Beth
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> On 11/8/08, Linda Mentink
> <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>> Hi Julie,
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> I'm sorry, too.  I'm
> not against our president elect because he's
> >>>>>>> black.  Fact is, he's half
> black.  That's neither here nor
> >>>>>>> there.  It's mainly
> because he's the most liberal of all in Congress,
> >>>>>>> and I believe that a lot of
> our rights will be taken away once he is
> >>>>>>> sworn in.  We'll see what
> happens, but I'm praying for him, and all
> >>>>>>> the rest in authority over us.
>  I sent those things to you because I
> >>>>>>> knew you wouldn't find out
> from the mainstream media.  But the
> >>>>>>> election has made history, and
> God's people need to be more vigilent
> >>>>>>> than
> >>>>>>> ever.
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Blessings,
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Linda
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> At 03:33 PM 11/8/2008, you
> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> It happened by accident. 
> When you didn't stop attacking in my
> >>>>>>>> in-box--those of you who
> did it--people of other races by way of our
> >>>>>>>> new President-elect, I
> wrote what I wrote.  Now you know how false
> >>>>>>>> accusations hurt
> everybody.  Because of one man the African-American
> >>>>>>>> Church, and people who
> attend them, have been under tremendous
> >>>>>>>> attack ever since last
> March with no let-up.  Ever since I began
> >>>>>>>> attending and became saved
> in African-American churches in 1972,
> >>>>>>>> I've heard dirty,
> dirty comments like:  "they just do in their
> >>>>>>>> church what they did in
> the slave days."  In the slave days,
> >>>>>>>> African-Americans
> weren't permitted to know anything of the Bible
> >>>>>>>> but "Servants obey
> your masters in the Lord for this is right.
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> If people say what people
> have said about one another's churches
> >>>>>>>> ever since last March,
> referring to us as blind people, we'd be up
> >>>>>>>> in arms.  Let us all be
> more careful.
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> It hit me like a
> thunderbolt while I was playing piano at a senior
> >>>>>>>> citizens building today
> why you all were upset.  And as upset as you
> >>>>>>>> were last Thursday night,
> Linda, I was that upset one month ago when
> >>>>>>>> I read what you
> particularly sent me privately at 5:00 on a Sunday
> >>>>>>>> morning while  I was
> getting ready for church.  I'm sorry and maybe
> >>>>>>>> we can understand one
> another better now.
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>  has been
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> "Loyalty to petrified
> opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a
> >>>>>>>> human soul," American
> Humorist Mark Twain
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> "An attack on one of
> us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth
> >>>>>>>> Jernigan, Immediate Past
> President, National Federation of the Blind
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> "A brother offended
> is harder to be won than a strong city: and
> >>>>>>>> their contentions are like
> the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> "Faith is the ability
> to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> "No one can do it for
> us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push,
> >>>>>>>> 1976.
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> "With proper
> training, development, and opportunity, blindness can
> >>>>>>>> be reduced to the level of
> a physical nuisance or characteristic,"
> >>>>>>>> the Late Dr. Kenneth
> Jernigan, Past President, National Federation
> >>>>>>>> of the Blind.
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> Julie Vogt or
> jcvogt at pressenter.com
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>
> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
> >>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> >>>>>>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change
> your list options or get your account info
> >>>>>>>> for Faith-talk:
> >>>>>>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>
> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
> >>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> >>>>>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your
> list options or get your account info for
> >>>>>>> Faith-talk:
> >>>>>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>
> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
> >>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> >>>>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list
> options or get your account info for
> >>>>>> Faith-talk:
> >>>>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> No virus found in this incoming
> message.
> >>>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> >>>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database:
> 270.9.0/1776 - Release Date: 11/8/2008
> >>>>> 6:49 PM
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>>
> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
> >>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> >>>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list
> options or get your account info for
> >>>>> Faith-talk:
> >>>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
> >>>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>>
> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Faith-talk mailing list
> >>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> >>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options
> or get your account info for
> >>>> Faith-talk:
> >>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> No virus found in this incoming message.
> >>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> >>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database:
> 270.9.0/1778 - Release Date: 11/9/2008
> >>> 2:14 PM
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>>
> _______________________________________________
> >>> Faith-talk mailing list
> >>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> >>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or
> get your account info for
> >>> Faith-talk:
> >>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
> >>> 
> >> 
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Faith-talk mailing list
> >> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> >>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get
> your account info for Faith-talk:
> >>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
> > 
> > 
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1778 -
> Release Date: 11/9/2008 2:14 PM
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Faith-talk mailing list
> > Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> >
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
> account info for Faith-talk:
> >
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
> > 
> Corey Cook 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
> account info for Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/timber_wolf899%40yahoo.com


      



From ccook01 at knology.net  Mon Nov 10 02:03:31 2008
From: ccook01 at knology.net (Corey Cook)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 21:03:31 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
In-Reply-To: <000901c942c9$c19f92d0$ef956f44@windows6996273>
References: <E9B0A7C28DD444F7ADC7CB300F67830F@your4dacd0ea75><20081109035831.9E797AC853@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
	<000901c942c9$c19f92d0$ef956f44@windows6996273>
Message-ID: <802FCADE7D464D97BCB5CDA7F07A0432@TheCooksPC>

Beth, always remember,
God will not be stopped because of who is in the white house.
God is in control, and his plans will not be stopped.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth Kats" <bethkats at cox.net>
To: "'Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion'" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 7:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations


>I agree with you, Linda.  I wasn't pleased with the election.  We all need
> to remember that God is in control.  Our Pastor said that God gives us 
> what
> we need even though it isn't always what we want.  I need to work on
> remembering that God is in control even though his plan is not what we had
> hoped.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On Behalf Of Linda Mentink
> Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2008 7:59 PM
> To: Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>
> Hi Julie,
>
> I'm sorry, too.  I'm not against our president elect because he's
> black.  Fact is, he's half black.  That's neither here nor
> there.  It's mainly because he's the most liberal of all in Congress,
> and I believe that a lot of our rights will be taken away once he is
> sworn in.  We'll see what happens, but I'm praying for him, and all
> the rest in authority over us.  I sent those things to you because I
> knew you wouldn't find out from the mainstream media.  But the
> election has made history, and God's people need to be more vigilent than
> ever.
>
> Blessings,
>
> Linda
>
> At 03:33 PM 11/8/2008, you wrote:
>>It happened by accident.  When you didn't stop attacking in my
>>in-box--those of you who did it--people of other races by way of our
>>new President-elect, I wrote what I wrote.  Now you know how false
>>accusations hurt everybody.  Because of one man the African-American
>>Church, and people who attend them, have been under tremendous
>>attack ever since last March with no let-up.  Ever since I began
>>attending and became saved in African-American churches in 1972,
>>I've heard dirty, dirty comments like:  "they just do in their
>>church what they did in the slave days."  In the slave days,
>>African-Americans weren't permitted to know anything of the Bible
>>but "Servants obey your masters in the Lord for this is right.
>>
>>If people say what people have said about one another's churches
>>ever since last March, referring to us as blind people, we'd be up
>>in arms.  Let us all be more careful.
>>
>>It hit me like a thunderbolt while I was playing piano at a senior
>>citizens building today why you all were upset.  And as upset as you
>>were last Thursday night, Linda, I was that upset one month ago when
>>I read what you particularly sent me privately at 5:00 on a Sunday
>>morning while  I was getting ready for church.  I'm sorry and maybe
>>we can understand one another better now.
>>
>>  has been
>>
>>"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a
>>human soul," American Humorist Mark Twain
>>
>>"An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth
>>Jernigan, Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind
>>
>>"A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and
>>their contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
>>
>>"Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>>
>>"No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push, 
>>1976.
>>
>>"With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can
>>be reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic,"
>>the Late Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation
>>of the Blind.
>>
>>Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Faith-talk mailing list
>>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>for Faith-talk:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40front
> iernet.net
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/bethkats%40cox.n
> et
>
> __________ NOD32 3597 (20081108) Information __________
>
> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>
Corey Cook 




From ccook01 at knology.net  Mon Nov 10 02:04:18 2008
From: ccook01 at knology.net (Corey Cook)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 21:04:18 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Emailing: Last Days Ministries  I'm Gay, O.K.
In-Reply-To: <0AE2D4A5152D4796862C6EFB2E88D3AE@nickf1758c2c9d>
References: <35A03D458698454A84A02B53EB5728FC@Buster>
	<0AE2D4A5152D4796862C6EFB2E88D3AE@nickf1758c2c9d>
Message-ID: <05FEC37F44AA4623A65F3DF8887E992C@TheCooksPC>

Agreed.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <trising at sbcglobal.net>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 6:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Emailing: Last Days Ministries I'm Gay, O.K.


> That is an absolutely excellent article! All of us sin and fall short of 
> the glory of God, whether we are gay or a gossip. Jesus loves all of us 
> and came here to die in our place for our sins so we can go to heaven and 
> be with him. We will not go there if we do not trust in Him alone as the 
> provider of our salvation. People who commit any sin, and that means all 
> of us, deserve to be loved, but not to have our sin excused or minimized. 
> It is God's design for marriage to be between one man and one woman. we as 
> Christians can stand up for what is right, while loving those caught in 
> homosexual sin. Giving them special rights is wrong, but so is refusing to 
> talk to them, or regarding them as someone God cannot save.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>
Corey Cook 




From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Mon Nov 10 03:12:35 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 22:12:35 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
In-Reply-To: <356348.90200.qm@web51909.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <17B22BE1EC2F45149C8C36923C19FEB3@TheCooksPC>
	<356348.90200.qm@web51909.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811091912k5b4dd09bud3bef5c09b3e90fb@mail.gmail.com>

Okay, if homosexuality is a sin, guess what?  What about the
homosexuals who have homosexual relations with each other and cannot
be attracted to opposite sex members?  I again may mention that I have
friends who are gay/lesbian.  And I am pleased with Obama in the white
house.  God knows what's best, and I believe in a God who loves all,
and God knows that homosexuality is a sin, but it is a sin between
those who can physically have someone of the opposite sex along with
being attracted with someone of the opposite sex.  Take my
ex-boyfriend for instance.  He likes women, but if he went to sleep
with a young college friend of mine who I know is attracted to girls,
THAT is a sin.  But if my friend who is lesbian went to sleep with the
equally lesbian girlfriend, it is not a sin.  We must love everybody
unconditionally, and we must not say that they are committing a sin
unless they really are and have the brain chemicals made up so that
they are attracted to someone of the opposite sex.  I am attracted to
menh, so if I went to sleep with my college roommate, for instance,
that would be a in in itself.  I am blind, and if I married a blind
man, that would be fine.  But the way this country and the bible seems
to be interpreted, homosexuality would be stomped out and next will be
blindness.  Before we know it, our listservs will be in jeopardy, an
then, we wouldn't be able to marry, write, read, go to college, and if
the Terrorists get our country, and that is if Barack Obama's not
watching over us, we will be wearing veils if we're female.  I for one
do not want any ore arguments about homosexuality to ever pop up again
on this listserv.  I want to play it straight: it may be a sin, but
unfortunately, nobody understands the homosexual cannot be changed if
they are truly homosexual.  I understand my friends, and they are good
people.  They are going to college and they are going to be band and
chorus teachers.  Do you people thin that these girls I'm friends with
shouldn't be band and chorus teachers to young children because they
are homosexuals?  According to the weird article I read, yes.  But I'd
hire them any time.
Anyway, that's my soap box for today.
Beth

On 11/9/08, Frank Lordi <timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> you are speakin gof the concept of 'blood guilt'?
>
> This so often brought grief to Isreal, no?
>
>
>
> --- On Sun, 11/9/08, Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net> wrote:
>
>> From: Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net>
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>> To: "Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion"
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 8:44 PM
>> Homosexuality is sin.
>> Read Romans 1
>> read first Corinthians 6
>> Yes we need to love them just as we love all sinners, but
>> it is time to call it what it is, and that is sin!
>> It is a sin that will be the end of this country if we
>> allow it to be accepted and embraced.
>> Not a popular thought, but a true one.
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Wheeler"
>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and
>> religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 6:29 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>
>>
>> > Never mind.  I keep telling you it is called a sin in
>> the bible...if you don't want to believe that God calls
>> it a sin, I can't say anything to sway you.
>> >
>> >
>> > +-+-+-
>> >
>> >   There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none
>> beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
>> > 1 Samuel 2:2
>> > ~~~
>> >
>> > Alan D Wheeler
>> > awheeler at neb.rr.com
>> > IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>> > Skype: redwheel1
>> > Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM
>> eastern time at www.theqonline.net
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beth"
>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> > To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and
>> religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> > Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 2:41 PM
>> > Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>> >
>> >
>> >> We're talking about a country where not
>> everybody believes in God.  We
>> >> Christians are shoving God down the throats of
>> those who don't know
>> >> him.  We need to pray for the homosexuals and
>> those who are
>> >> experiencing a so-called sin ad we need to be
>> nicer to these people
>> >> for God's own sake.
>> >> Beth
>> >>
>> >> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler
>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>> >>> At the same time, homosexuality is called a
>> sin and abomination by God. So
>> >>> you think we should allow people to continue
>> to sin against God?
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> +-+-+-
>> >>>
>> >>>    We know that all things work together for
>> good for those who love God, to
>> >>> those
>> >>> who are called according to his purpose.
>> >>>  Romans 8:28
>> >>> ~~~
>> >>>
>> >>> Alan D Wheeler
>> >>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>> >>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>> >>> Skype: redwheel1
>> >>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1
>> PM eastern time at
>> >>> www.theqonline.net
>> >>>
>> >>> ----- Original Message -----
>> >>> From: "Beth"
>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> >>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of
>> faith and religion"
>> >>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> >>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:44 AM
>> >>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>> I would have toagree with Julie.  Marriage
>> is about love, not
>> >>>> procreative reasons only.  I've known
>> friends who've gotten married as
>> >>>> nonprocreative peoples.  Also, has anybody
>> thought that marriage
>> >>>> should at least be for those that can
>> participate in it as well?
>> >>>> Also, if we have bans on same-sex
>> marriage, think of it this way: we
>> >>>> are forcing religion on the people, which
>> God really doesn't want us
>> >>>> to do.  To be Christ-like is not to shove
>> God down the throats of
>> >>>> those who don't know him, but to
>> spread God's love to them, to let
>> >>>> them be free people.
>> >>>> Beth
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler
>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>> >>>>> Beth,
>> >>>>> I gently disagree with you.  Marriage
>> was designed by God to be between a
>> >>>>> man and a woman.  Don't take issue
>> because I said it.  Study the Bible
>> >>>>> and
>> >>>>> if you still don't like it, then
>> you have to take it up with God.  It was
>> >>>>> His idea to begin with, not man's.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> +-+-+-
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>    The LORD is my strength and song,
>> and he is become my salvation: he is
>> >>>>> my
>> >>>>> God, and I will prepare him an
>> >>>>>  habitation; my father's God, and
>> I will exalt him.
>> >>>>>  Exodus 15:2
>> >>>>> ~~~
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Alan D Wheeler
>> >>>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>> >>>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>> >>>>> Skype: redwheel1
>> >>>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10
>> AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>> >>>>> www.theqonline.net
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>> >>>>> From: "Beth"
>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> >>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the
>> discussion of faith and religion"
>> >>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 7:29
>> AM
>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False
>> Accusations
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> I don't care if Obama's
>> half-black.  God's people will come to
>> >>>>>> understand a few things:
>> >>>>>> 1. Marriage, for example, is not
>> between "one man and one woman".  It
>> >>>>>> is between two able parties, same
>> o different sex, that are actually
>> >>>>>> willing to stay together.  Our
>> high divorce rate of heterosexual
>> >>>>>> couples mostly is bad for our
>> children herein America.
>> >>>>>> 2. Abortion should never happen.
>> If it's something that has to do
>> >>>>>> with the mother's life and
>> health, then that's the only exception.
>> >>>>>> But rape and birth control reasons
>> are not good ones.
>> >>>>>> 3. Blind people can and wwill have
>> equal rights to vote, gain security
>> >>>>>> benefits, and so on.  Yes,
>> Obama's the most liberal, but we need him.
>> >>>>>> Maybe he's a lot more
>> Christian than Bush was.  But God's people must
>> >>>>>> not be against him.  I'm a
>> Catholic, and I'm also a liberal as well.
>> >>>>>> Obama has also beat Kennedy by so
>> many years.  ANything having to do
>> >>>>>> with race is out as far as I'm
>> concerned.  Next, what will happen when
>> >>>>>> a woman is in the White House?
>> What about a blind woman? lol
>> >>>>>> Beth
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> On 11/8/08, Linda Mentink
>> <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
>> >>>>>>> Hi Julie,
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> I'm sorry, too.  I'm
>> not against our president elect because he's
>> >>>>>>> black.  Fact is, he's half
>> black.  That's neither here nor
>> >>>>>>> there.  It's mainly
>> because he's the most liberal of all in Congress,
>> >>>>>>> and I believe that a lot of
>> our rights will be taken away once he is
>> >>>>>>> sworn in.  We'll see what
>> happens, but I'm praying for him, and all
>> >>>>>>> the rest in authority over us.
>>  I sent those things to you because I
>> >>>>>>> knew you wouldn't find out
>> from the mainstream media.  But the
>> >>>>>>> election has made history, and
>> God's people need to be more vigilent
>> >>>>>>> than
>> >>>>>>> ever.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Blessings,
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Linda
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> At 03:33 PM 11/8/2008, you
>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>> It happened by accident.
>> When you didn't stop attacking in my
>> >>>>>>>> in-box--those of you who
>> did it--people of other races by way of our
>> >>>>>>>> new President-elect, I
>> wrote what I wrote.  Now you know how false
>> >>>>>>>> accusations hurt
>> everybody.  Because of one man the African-American
>> >>>>>>>> Church, and people who
>> attend them, have been under tremendous
>> >>>>>>>> attack ever since last
>> March with no let-up.  Ever since I began
>> >>>>>>>> attending and became saved
>> in African-American churches in 1972,
>> >>>>>>>> I've heard dirty,
>> dirty comments like:  "they just do in their
>> >>>>>>>> church what they did in
>> the slave days."  In the slave days,
>> >>>>>>>> African-Americans
>> weren't permitted to know anything of the Bible
>> >>>>>>>> but "Servants obey
>> your masters in the Lord for this is right.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> If people say what people
>> have said about one another's churches
>> >>>>>>>> ever since last March,
>> referring to us as blind people, we'd be up
>> >>>>>>>> in arms.  Let us all be
>> more careful.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> It hit me like a
>> thunderbolt while I was playing piano at a senior
>> >>>>>>>> citizens building today
>> why you all were upset.  And as upset as you
>> >>>>>>>> were last Thursday night,
>> Linda, I was that upset one month ago when
>> >>>>>>>> I read what you
>> particularly sent me privately at 5:00 on a Sunday
>> >>>>>>>> morning while  I was
>> getting ready for church.  I'm sorry and maybe
>> >>>>>>>> we can understand one
>> another better now.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>  has been
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> "Loyalty to petrified
>> opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a
>> >>>>>>>> human soul," American
>> Humorist Mark Twain
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> "An attack on one of
>> us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth
>> >>>>>>>> Jernigan, Immediate Past
>> President, National Federation of the Blind
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> "A brother offended
>> is harder to be won than a strong city: and
>> >>>>>>>> their contentions are like
>> the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> "Faith is the ability
>> to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> "No one can do it for
>> us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push,
>> >>>>>>>> 1976.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> "With proper
>> training, development, and opportunity, blindness can
>> >>>>>>>> be reduced to the level of
>> a physical nuisance or characteristic,"
>> >>>>>>>> the Late Dr. Kenneth
>> Jernigan, Past President, National Federation
>> >>>>>>>> of the Blind.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Julie Vogt or
>> jcvogt at pressenter.com
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> >>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >>>>>>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change
>> your list options or get your account info
>> >>>>>>>> for Faith-talk:
>> >>>>>>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> >>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >>>>>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your
>> list options or get your account info for
>> >>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>> >>>>>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> >>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >>>>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list
>> options or get your account info for
>> >>>>>> Faith-talk:
>> >>>>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> No virus found in this incoming
>> message.
>> >>>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>> >>>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database:
>> 270.9.0/1776 - Release Date: 11/8/2008
>> >>>>> 6:49 PM
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> >>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >>>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list
>> options or get your account info for
>> >>>>> Faith-talk:
>> >>>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> >>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options
>> or get your account info for
>> >>>> Faith-talk:
>> >>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> >>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>> >>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database:
>> 270.9.0/1778 - Release Date: 11/9/2008
>> >>> 2:14 PM
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>> >>>
>> >>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> >>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or
>> get your account info for
>> >>> Faith-talk:
>> >>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Faith-talk mailing list
>> >> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get
>> your account info for Faith-talk:
>> >>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > No virus found in this incoming message.
>> > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>> > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1778 -
>> Release Date: 11/9/2008 2:14 PM
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>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Faith-talk mailing list
>> > Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
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>> account info for Faith-talk:
>> >
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>> >
>> Corey Cook
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>> account info for Faith-talk:
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>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>



From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Mon Nov 10 03:14:40 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 22:14:40 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] false accusations
In-Reply-To: <3DE6C8F59A0A4C4E902D8D50D4BF8043@TheCooksPC>
References: <BAY133-DAV7C5DF97F6C797B9A3FAA2901B0@phx.gbl>
	<3DE6C8F59A0A4C4E902D8D50D4BF8043@TheCooksPC>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811091914k3751b511h4f7af9209ce59288@mail.gmail.com>

Okay, okay.  I just said it already.  I don't care about your surveys,
your statistics and data.  It just sounds like a bunch of warped
knowledge to me.
Beth

On 11/9/08, Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net> wrote:
> Well put Pat.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Pat Gormley" <kk3f at msn.com>
> To: <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 6:09 PM
> Subject: [Faith-talk] false accusations
>
>
>> People that favor same sex unions tend not to be very good students of
>> history.  Ancient Greece and Rome both experienced similar breakdowns in
>> society as their civilizations.  You also need to look at actuarial data
>> and those tables indicate that those who engage in alternative lifestyles
>> tend to live 10 to 15 years less than a similarly in tact married couple.
>> I agree with Alan Wheeler in that we hate the sin  but not the sinner.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>>
> Corey Cook
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
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>



From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Mon Nov 10 03:15:46 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 22:15:46 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] false accusations
In-Reply-To: <BAY133-DAV399AD1DB73AE87D9E8823901A0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY133-DAV399AD1DB73AE87D9E8823901A0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811091915x625230a9n8d9f30092d639ff2@mail.gmail.com>

I'd like to see those writings myself.
Beth

On 11/9/08, Pat Gormley <kk3f at msn.com> wrote:
> This thread brought to mind a lengthy discussion a number of us had one
> night  by the fireplace at the National center between Dr. Maurer, myself
> and a couple of us who have been trained in the classics and are both very
> familiar with the Socratic method.  Marc had just read some of the later
> roman poets such as Catulus, Plautus and Terrence.  Some of the platonic
> writings also indicate what was going on in Greek society and the Latin
> poets mentioned earlier Roman society respectively.  There is an amazing
> parallel between those writings and what's going on today.  I gave him the
> names of those authors so he could look up their writings the net since a
> lot of those texts are freely available.  There are quite a number of these
> writings on disk as well.
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>



From lynnwhite51 at sbcglobal.net  Mon Nov 10 03:21:37 2008
From: lynnwhite51 at sbcglobal.net (BMW)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 21:21:37 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] More about homosexuality.
In-Reply-To: <4383d01d0811091253x2afd9cffu8fc0dcd74995a54d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <45DA65A746C4427D84681755CC35CB99@Alan>
	<4383d01d0811091253x2afd9cffu8fc0dcd74995a54d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <31C23822BE7246E2A07426880ABA96D4@lynnwhitePC>

well, Beth, your view goes against the old and new Testament.  Nobody is 
being a bigot or anything like that.

What do you do with the verses that speak against adultery, drunkardness, 
slanderers, fornicators?  Paul says that all of have fit into one of these 
categories before we were forgiven.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 2:53 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] More about homosexuality.


> Allan, this article is severely biased and is hurtful to homosexual
> friends of mine.  Thank God they didn't read this.  To be honest, I
> love my friends, all my friends heterosexual and homosexual.  Every
> kid has the right to two loving parents, but not necessarily a mom and
> a dad.  Gay couples and lesbian couples are still adoptable couples.
> I've seen a lesbian couple that adopted two Cree First Nations
> children.  I saw a gay couple adopt special needs twins who had
> addiction problems.  This country needs to be more progressive and
> stop attacking homosexuals because they are homosexuals.  Before you
> know it, Allan, this country will put blind and visually impaired
> people as well as cognitively disabled people in their places: along
> with the homosexuals, below sighted and heterosexual people.  Before
> you know it, Allan, African Americans will be kicked out of office and
> there will be an assassination attempt on Barack Obama, who I hope
> will reign for eight long and healthy years.  Please watch what you're
> saying!  We're all Christians on this list!  Can't we accept others'
> beliefs and opinions here?  I'm not trying to be psychic and prophetic
> here, but please understand that I am very concerned that this nation
> is going to fall down like Rome did and we won't have a very healthy
> end if you know what I mean.  And not everybody believes in God.  And
> God loves everybody, and even though it is written that homosexuality
> is a sin, attacking homosexuals who are not atracted and refuse to be
> attracted to the opposite sex is wrong.  We cannot an will not attack
> others because they are a different brand of homo sapiens sapiens.
> Beth
>
> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>> I went to www.biblegateway.com to see what I could find about 
>> homosexuality
>> and the bible.  This was among the resources.  So, again I say, and this 
>> is
>> my last comment on the subject, if you disagree that marriage is only for
>> men and women, then your argument is with God.  It's in His book.
>>
>> http://www.faithfacts.org/christ-and-the-culture/gay-rights#marriage
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  Sanctity of Marriage
>> In recent years, the homosexual movement has centered on giving
>> marriage-like benefits to gay couples. Many in the culture have 
>> mistakenly
>> concluded that marriage is merely an institution for the convenience of
>> adults. In actuality, marriage is the bedrock institution for culture to
>> sustain itself through having and nurturing children. There are
>> complementary aspects to a man and woman that are important to the
>> instutution of marriage which go beyond the obvious physical attributes.
>> There are things that a man needs that can only be provided by a woman, 
>> and
>> vice versa.
>>
>> These complementary aspects are important to the relationship of the 
>> couple
>> itself, as well as to the children. One does not have to appeal to 
>> religion
>> to instinctively understand this. Yet statistics verify the structure of 
>> the
>> traditional family as the approach to raising children that gives the 
>> best
>> measurable results. The overwhelming body of social science research 
>> agrees
>> that children do best when raised in homes with married, opposite-sex
>> parents. Every child has the right to both a mom and a dad.
>>
>> Yet we cannot divorce the institution of marriage from its theological
>> roots. We acknowledge that marriage is an institution given by God 
>> (Genesis
>> 2:24). The Creator of the Universe established the relationship between a
>> man and a woman, thus it is a divine institution, not a human one. To 
>> confer
>> marriage-like rights to gays is not the prerogative of people (Matthew
>> 19:6). (This includes civil unions or domestic partnerships, as they are
>> merely marriage by other names.) Defining marriage is the prerogative of
>> God. Whatever may tend to undermine the institution of marriage would 
>> also
>> undermine the authority of God, as well as hurt society.
>>
>> Liberals may argue, "Why should we arbitrarily select only heterosexual
>> couples for marriage? What can it hurt if two homosexuals want to marry?"
>> The answer is surprisingly simple. The institution of marriage between 
>> and
>> man a woman is not, in fact, arbitrary. It's purpose is clear and of 
>> utmost
>> importance to society.
>>
>> David Orland in an article entitled "The Deceit of Gay Marriage" puts it
>> very well. He says:
>>
>>   To justify giving privileges or exemptions or subsidies to some 
>> particular
>> group in society, the benefit of doing so for society at large must first 
>> be
>> shown. With heterosexual marriage, the case is clear enough. Heterosexual
>> marriage is a matter of genuine social interest because the family is
>> essential to society's reproduction. The crux of my argument, in other
>> words, was that married couples receive the benefits they do, not because
>> the state is interested in promoting romantic love, or because the Bible
>> says so or because of the influence of special interest groups but rather
>> because the next generation is something that is and should be of 
>> interest
>> to all of us. And, by definition, this is not a case that can be made for
>> homosexual unions. To that degree, the attempt to turn the question of
>> domestic partnership into a debate about fairness falls flat.
>>
>>   The more persistent supporters of domestic partnership will of course
>> respond to this argument by pointing to the case in which homosexual
>> partners adopt children or, in the case of lesbians, undergo artificial
>> insemination. The intention here is to show that the nuclear family is 
>> found
>> even among homosexual couples and that, to that extent, homosexual unions 
>> do
>> indeed meet the same criterion of social interest as heterosexual ones 
>> and
>> thus should be granted legal status. It is a weak argument and one that
>> ultimately back-fires on those who employ it. This is for two reasons:
>>
>>   First, adoption by homosexual couples is still exceedingly rare and the
>> law-though many are surprised to learn this-is aimed at the general case. 
>> To
>> confer legal benefits on the entire class of would-be homosexual spouses
>> just because some very small minority of this class approximates the 
>> pattern
>> of the nuclear family would be a bit like admitting all applicants to a
>> select university on the grounds that a few of them had been shown to 
>> meet
>> the entrance requirements.
>>
>>   Second, the right of this small minority to the benefits of marriage is
>> dubious in the extreme. Homosexual "families" of whatever type are always
>> and necessarily parasitic on heterosexual ones.
>>
>> Every child has the right to a mom and a dad. See 5 Reasons Why Same-Sex
>> Marriage Harms Children.
>>
>> But homosexuals not only want fair treatment, they are pushing for "Super
>> Rights." According the Paul Cameron of the Family Research Institute:
>>
>>   "Every member of society has a duty to contribute to the commonwealth. 
>> Yet
>> the empirical evidence indicates that those who engage in homosexuality 
>> 1)
>> contribute less and cost more in goods and services, 2) 
>> disproportionately
>> disrupt social functioning, and 3) have few children while being more apt 
>> to
>> harm them. Thus, homosexual practioners not only fail to 'pay for their
>> keep,' but by their negative influence on children, cloud society's 
>> future.
>>
>>   Those who engage in homosexuality seek what they say are 'gay rights." 
>> In
>> reality, they are demanding Super Rights. Super Rights are those 
>> privileges
>> that allow one to ovverride the inalienable rights of other citizens, 
>> such
>> as freedom of speech and association. These Super Rights-which are 
>> conferred
>> by 'non-discrimination,' 'hate crime,' and 'hate speech' laws-allow
>> homosexuals, if they so choose, to endanger or punish those who would
>> exercise their associational rights to avoid them or protect their 
>> children
>> from them.
>>
>>   As an example, empirical studies to date indicate that a male teacher 
>> who
>> practices homosexuality is the most likely kind of teacher to sexually
>> molest students. A principal knowing this may not want to hire a teacher 
>> who
>> declares his homosexual interests. But if that teacher wants the job, his
>> Super Rights trump the associational rights of the principal as well as 
>> the
>> right of students not to experience extra risk (especially since safety 
>> is
>> part of their right to life). Parents renting out one side of their 
>> duplex
>> may not want to place their children at risk by renting to a gay couple. 
>> But
>> if-even on a whim - the homosexuals want the duplex, their Super Rights
>> trump the property and associational rights of the parents as well as 
>> their
>> children's right not to be exposed to potential molestation.
>>
>>   The Super Rights of homosexual practitioners also squelch the right of
>> others to freedom of speech. If a broadcaster opines that homosexual sex 
>> is
>> dangerous, but a homosexual finds such speech 'offensive,' his Super 
>> Rights
>> trump the broadcaster's freedom of speech and the broadcaster may be 
>> fined
>> or imprisoned."
>>
>> The concept of hate crimes seems particularly reprehensible. If one of 
>> your
>> (heterosexual) loved ones is the object of a despicable crime, the
>> perpetrator would receive a lesser punishment than someone who committed 
>> the
>> same act against someone who practices homosexual sex!
>>
>> +-+-+-
>>
>>    He has made clear to you, O man, what is good; and what is desired 
>> from
>> you by the Lord; only doing what is
>>  right, and loving mercy, and walking without pride before your God. 
>> Micah
>> 6:8
>> ~~~
>>
>> Alan D Wheeler
>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>> Skype: redwheel1
>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>> www.theqonline.net
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/lynnwhite51%40sbcglobal.net 




From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Mon Nov 10 03:23:06 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 21:23:06 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Emailing: Last Days Ministries  I'm Gay, O.K.
References: <35A03D458698454A84A02B53EB5728FC@Buster>
	<0AE2D4A5152D4796862C6EFB2E88D3AE@nickf1758c2c9d>
Message-ID: <D9FF74CB88CB441193149C0D4DB4E08E@Alan>

Thank you.  You put it more eloquently than I seemed able to do.

I totally and wholeheartedly agree with you.


+-+-+-

   There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. 
 1 Samuel 2:2
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <trising at sbcglobal.net>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 5:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Emailing: Last Days Ministries I'm Gay, O.K.


> That is an absolutely excellent article! All of us sin and fall short of the 
> glory of God, whether we are gay or a gossip. Jesus loves all of us and came 
> here to die in our place for our sins so we can go to heaven and be with 
> him. We will not go there if we do not trust in Him alone as the provider of 
> our salvation. People who commit any sin, and that means all of us, deserve 
> to be loved, but not to have our sin excused or minimized. It is God's 
> design for marriage to be between one man and one woman. we as Christians 
> can stand up for what is right, while loving those caught in homosexual sin. 
> Giving them special rights is wrong, but so is refusing to talk to them, or 
> regarding them as someone God cannot save. 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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From lynnwhite51 at sbcglobal.net  Mon Nov 10 03:27:26 2008
From: lynnwhite51 at sbcglobal.net (BMW)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 21:27:26 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
In-Reply-To: <4383d01d0811091241x6bcba8fyf245b5a9bae3889c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <E9B0A7C28DD444F7ADC7CB300F67830F@your4dacd0ea75><20081109035831.9E797AC853@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net><4383d01d0811090529o40db51do77b90bee606dc92b@mail.gmail.com><34EE51212347460BBC336CEB5D414D5A@Alan><4383d01d0811090844o4496c680xf7c1eb301ac76b6f@mail.gmail.com><F8F4968EFA6F4D5DA9552449802050AF@Alan>
	<4383d01d0811091241x6bcba8fyf245b5a9bae3889c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BF6C2124D14B4948B54CF0B42B2893C7@lynnwhitePC>

Actually, it's the other way around.  We have never tried to force 
Christianity down anybody.

But, as our society has become less and less godly, the sinner has succeeded 
in duping society into believing that we are discriminating because we 
continue to remind people of what God says in his word.

Why don't we have laws that say that murderers are welcomed as full 
citizens?  Lets celebrate Thieves Day at our amusement parks.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 2:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations


> We're talking about a country where not everybody believes in God.  We
> Christians are shoving God down the throats of those who don't know
> him.  We need to pray for the homosexuals and those who are
> experiencing a so-called sin ad we need to be nicer to these people
> for God's own sake.
> Beth
>
> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>> At the same time, homosexuality is called a sin and abomination by God. 
>> So
>> you think we should allow people to continue to sin against God?
>>
>>
>> +-+-+-
>>
>>    We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, 
>> to
>> those
>> who are called according to his purpose.
>>  Romans 8:28
>> ~~~
>>
>> Alan D Wheeler
>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>> Skype: redwheel1
>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>> www.theqonline.net
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:44 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>
>>
>>>I would have toagree with Julie.  Marriage is about love, not
>>> procreative reasons only.  I've known friends who've gotten married as
>>> nonprocreative peoples.  Also, has anybody thought that marriage
>>> should at least be for those that can participate in it as well?
>>> Also, if we have bans on same-sex marriage, think of it this way: we
>>> are forcing religion on the people, which God really doesn't want us
>>> to do.  To be Christ-like is not to shove God down the throats of
>>> those who don't know him, but to spread God's love to them, to let
>>> them be free people.
>>> Beth
>>>
>>> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>>> Beth,
>>>> I gently disagree with you.  Marriage was designed by God to be between 
>>>> a
>>>> man and a woman.  Don't take issue because I said it.  Study the Bible
>>>> and
>>>> if you still don't like it, then you have to take it up with God.  It 
>>>> was
>>>> His idea to begin with, not man's.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> +-+-+-
>>>>
>>>>    The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he 
>>>> is
>>>> my
>>>> God, and I will prepare him an
>>>>  habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.
>>>>  Exodus 15:2
>>>> ~~~
>>>>
>>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>>> www.theqonline.net
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 7:29 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I don't care if Obama's half-black.  God's people will come to
>>>>> understand a few things:
>>>>> 1. Marriage, for example, is not between "one man and one woman".  It
>>>>> is between two able parties, same o different sex, that are actually
>>>>> willing to stay together.  Our high divorce rate of heterosexual
>>>>> couples mostly is bad for our children herein America.
>>>>> 2. Abortion should never happen.  If it's something that has to do
>>>>> with the mother's life and health, then that's the only exception.
>>>>> But rape and birth control reasons are not good ones.
>>>>> 3. Blind people can and wwill have equal rights to vote, gain security
>>>>> benefits, and so on.  Yes, Obama's the most liberal, but we need him.
>>>>> Maybe he's a lot more Christian than Bush was.  But God's people must
>>>>> not be against him.  I'm a Catholic, and I'm also a liberal as well.
>>>>> Obama has also beat Kennedy by so many years.  ANything having to do
>>>>> with race is out as far as I'm concerned.  Next, what will happen when
>>>>> a woman is in the White House?  What about a blind woman? lol
>>>>> Beth
>>>>>
>>>>> On 11/8/08, Linda Mentink <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Julie,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm sorry, too.  I'm not against our president elect because he's
>>>>>> black.  Fact is, he's half black.  That's neither here nor
>>>>>> there.  It's mainly because he's the most liberal of all in Congress,
>>>>>> and I believe that a lot of our rights will be taken away once he is
>>>>>> sworn in.  We'll see what happens, but I'm praying for him, and all
>>>>>> the rest in authority over us.  I sent those things to you because I
>>>>>> knew you wouldn't find out from the mainstream media.  But the
>>>>>> election has made history, and God's people need to be more vigilent
>>>>>> than
>>>>>> ever.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Blessings,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Linda
>>>>>>
>>>>>> At 03:33 PM 11/8/2008, you wrote:
>>>>>>>It happened by accident.  When you didn't stop attacking in my
>>>>>>>in-box--those of you who did it--people of other races by way of our
>>>>>>>new President-elect, I wrote what I wrote.  Now you know how false
>>>>>>>accusations hurt everybody.  Because of one man the African-American
>>>>>>>Church, and people who attend them, have been under tremendous
>>>>>>>attack ever since last March with no let-up.  Ever since I began
>>>>>>>attending and became saved in African-American churches in 1972,
>>>>>>>I've heard dirty, dirty comments like:  "they just do in their
>>>>>>>church what they did in the slave days."  In the slave days,
>>>>>>>African-Americans weren't permitted to know anything of the Bible
>>>>>>>but "Servants obey your masters in the Lord for this is right.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>If people say what people have said about one another's churches
>>>>>>>ever since last March, referring to us as blind people, we'd be up
>>>>>>>in arms.  Let us all be more careful.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>It hit me like a thunderbolt while I was playing piano at a senior
>>>>>>>citizens building today why you all were upset.  And as upset as you
>>>>>>>were last Thursday night, Linda, I was that upset one month ago when
>>>>>>>I read what you particularly sent me privately at 5:00 on a Sunday
>>>>>>>morning while  I was getting ready for church.  I'm sorry and maybe
>>>>>>>we can understand one another better now.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  has been
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a
>>>>>>>human soul," American Humorist Mark Twain
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth
>>>>>>>Jernigan, Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and
>>>>>>>their contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push,
>>>>>>> 1976.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can
>>>>>>>be reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic,"
>>>>>>>the Late Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation
>>>>>>>of the Blind.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>for Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
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>>>> 11/8/2008
>>>> 6:49 PM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>>
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>
> _______________________________________________
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> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
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> Faith-talk:
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From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Mon Nov 10 03:33:47 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 22:33:47 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Emailing: Last Days Ministries I'm Gay, O.K.
In-Reply-To: <0AE2D4A5152D4796862C6EFB2E88D3AE@nickf1758c2c9d>
References: <35A03D458698454A84A02B53EB5728FC@Buster>
	<0AE2D4A5152D4796862C6EFB2E88D3AE@nickf1758c2c9d>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811091933w2fff5563r4b7dc4d58c5eb47c@mail.gmail.com>

Come on!  I've said it enough.  Marriage isn't going to just be
"between ONE MAN and ONE WOMAN" enough these days.  Before you know
it, Christians will interpret the Bible as being of the able-bodied to
be perfect and capable of multiplyin and so on.  This is horrible!
Bet

On 11/9/08, trising at sbcglobal.net <trising at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> That is an absolutely excellent article! All of us sin and fall short of the
> glory of God, whether we are gay or a gossip. Jesus loves all of us and came
> here to die in our place for our sins so we can go to heaven and be with
> him. We will not go there if we do not trust in Him alone as the provider of
> our salvation. People who commit any sin, and that means all of us, deserve
> to be loved, but not to have our sin excused or minimized. It is God's
> design for marriage to be between one man and one woman. we as Christians
> can stand up for what is right, while loving those caught in homosexual sin.
> Giving them special rights is wrong, but so is refusing to talk to them, or
> regarding them as someone God cannot save.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>



From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Mon Nov 10 03:35:56 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 22:35:56 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] More about homosexuality.
In-Reply-To: <6101B7CE164848B5B6D1EEF3DD03A35B@Alan>
References: <45DA65A746C4427D84681755CC35CB99@Alan>
	<4383d01d0811091253x2afd9cffu8fc0dcd74995a54d@mail.gmail.com>
	<6101B7CE164848B5B6D1EEF3DD03A35B@Alan>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811091935p20569efbgd548b90f9d9e5d5@mail.gmail.com>

That's fine by me.
Beth

On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
> Beth,
> for the ***FINAL** time.  Your argument is with God *NOT* with me.  It's in
> the Bible...God's word.  People not believing it doesn't make it less true.
> If you want to dispute God's truth...dispute it with God and not me.
>
>
> +-+-+-
>
>    There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is
> there any rock like our God.
>  1 Samuel 2:2
> ~~~
>
> Alan D Wheeler
> awheeler at neb.rr.com
> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
> Skype: redwheel1
> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
> www.theqonline.net
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 2:53 PM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] More about homosexuality.
>
>
>> Allan, this article is severely biased and is hurtful to homosexual
>> friends of mine.  Thank God they didn't read this.  To be honest, I
>> love my friends, all my friends heterosexual and homosexual.  Every
>> kid has the right to two loving parents, but not necessarily a mom and
>> a dad.  Gay couples and lesbian couples are still adoptable couples.
>> I've seen a lesbian couple that adopted two Cree First Nations
>> children.  I saw a gay couple adopt special needs twins who had
>> addiction problems.  This country needs to be more progressive and
>> stop attacking homosexuals because they are homosexuals.  Before you
>> know it, Allan, this country will put blind and visually impaired
>> people as well as cognitively disabled people in their places: along
>> with the homosexuals, below sighted and heterosexual people.  Before
>> you know it, Allan, African Americans will be kicked out of office and
>> there will be an assassination attempt on Barack Obama, who I hope
>> will reign for eight long and healthy years.  Please watch what you're
>> saying!  We're all Christians on this list!  Can't we accept others'
>> beliefs and opinions here?  I'm not trying to be psychic and prophetic
>> here, but please understand that I am very concerned that this nation
>> is going to fall down like Rome did and we won't have a very healthy
>> end if you know what I mean.  And not everybody believes in God.  And
>> God loves everybody, and even though it is written that homosexuality
>> is a sin, attacking homosexuals who are not atracted and refuse to be
>> attracted to the opposite sex is wrong.  We cannot an will not attack
>> others because they are a different brand of homo sapiens sapiens.
>> Beth
>>
>> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>> I went to www.biblegateway.com to see what I could find about
>>> homosexuality
>>> and the bible.  This was among the resources.  So, again I say, and this
>>> is
>>> my last comment on the subject, if you disagree that marriage is only for
>>> men and women, then your argument is with God.  It's in His book.
>>>
>>> http://www.faithfacts.org/christ-and-the-culture/gay-rights#marriage
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  Sanctity of Marriage
>>> In recent years, the homosexual movement has centered on giving
>>> marriage-like benefits to gay couples. Many in the culture have
>>> mistakenly
>>> concluded that marriage is merely an institution for the convenience of
>>> adults. In actuality, marriage is the bedrock institution for culture to
>>> sustain itself through having and nurturing children. There are
>>> complementary aspects to a man and woman that are important to the
>>> instutution of marriage which go beyond the obvious physical attributes.
>>> There are things that a man needs that can only be provided by a woman,
>>> and
>>> vice versa.
>>>
>>> These complementary aspects are important to the relationship of the
>>> couple
>>> itself, as well as to the children. One does not have to appeal to
>>> religion
>>> to instinctively understand this. Yet statistics verify the structure of
>>> the
>>> traditional family as the approach to raising children that gives the
>>> best
>>> measurable results. The overwhelming body of social science research
>>> agrees
>>> that children do best when raised in homes with married, opposite-sex
>>> parents. Every child has the right to both a mom and a dad.
>>>
>>> Yet we cannot divorce the institution of marriage from its theological
>>> roots. We acknowledge that marriage is an institution given by God
>>> (Genesis
>>> 2:24). The Creator of the Universe established the relationship between a
>>> man and a woman, thus it is a divine institution, not a human one. To
>>> confer
>>> marriage-like rights to gays is not the prerogative of people (Matthew
>>> 19:6). (This includes civil unions or domestic partnerships, as they are
>>> merely marriage by other names.) Defining marriage is the prerogative of
>>> God. Whatever may tend to undermine the institution of marriage would
>>> also
>>> undermine the authority of God, as well as hurt society.
>>>
>>> Liberals may argue, "Why should we arbitrarily select only heterosexual
>>> couples for marriage? What can it hurt if two homosexuals want to marry?"
>>> The answer is surprisingly simple. The institution of marriage between
>>> and
>>> man a woman is not, in fact, arbitrary. It's purpose is clear and of
>>> utmost
>>> importance to society.
>>>
>>> David Orland in an article entitled "The Deceit of Gay Marriage" puts it
>>> very well. He says:
>>>
>>>   To justify giving privileges or exemptions or subsidies to some
>>> particular
>>> group in society, the benefit of doing so for society at large must first
>>> be
>>> shown. With heterosexual marriage, the case is clear enough. Heterosexual
>>> marriage is a matter of genuine social interest because the family is
>>> essential to society's reproduction. The crux of my argument, in other
>>> words, was that married couples receive the benefits they do, not because
>>> the state is interested in promoting romantic love, or because the Bible
>>> says so or because of the influence of special interest groups but rather
>>> because the next generation is something that is and should be of
>>> interest
>>> to all of us. And, by definition, this is not a case that can be made for
>>> homosexual unions. To that degree, the attempt to turn the question of
>>> domestic partnership into a debate about fairness falls flat.
>>>
>>>   The more persistent supporters of domestic partnership will of course
>>> respond to this argument by pointing to the case in which homosexual
>>> partners adopt children or, in the case of lesbians, undergo artificial
>>> insemination. The intention here is to show that the nuclear family is
>>> found
>>> even among homosexual couples and that, to that extent, homosexual unions
>>> do
>>> indeed meet the same criterion of social interest as heterosexual ones
>>> and
>>> thus should be granted legal status. It is a weak argument and one that
>>> ultimately back-fires on those who employ it. This is for two reasons:
>>>
>>>   First, adoption by homosexual couples is still exceedingly rare and the
>>> law-though many are surprised to learn this-is aimed at the general case.
>>> To
>>> confer legal benefits on the entire class of would-be homosexual spouses
>>> just because some very small minority of this class approximates the
>>> pattern
>>> of the nuclear family would be a bit like admitting all applicants to a
>>> select university on the grounds that a few of them had been shown to
>>> meet
>>> the entrance requirements.
>>>
>>>   Second, the right of this small minority to the benefits of marriage is
>>> dubious in the extreme. Homosexual "families" of whatever type are always
>>> and necessarily parasitic on heterosexual ones.
>>>
>>> Every child has the right to a mom and a dad. See 5 Reasons Why Same-Sex
>>> Marriage Harms Children.
>>>
>>> But homosexuals not only want fair treatment, they are pushing for "Super
>>> Rights." According the Paul Cameron of the Family Research Institute:
>>>
>>>   "Every member of society has a duty to contribute to the commonwealth.
>>> Yet
>>> the empirical evidence indicates that those who engage in homosexuality
>>> 1)
>>> contribute less and cost more in goods and services, 2)
>>> disproportionately
>>> disrupt social functioning, and 3) have few children while being more apt
>>> to
>>> harm them. Thus, homosexual practioners not only fail to 'pay for their
>>> keep,' but by their negative influence on children, cloud society's
>>> future.
>>>
>>>   Those who engage in homosexuality seek what they say are 'gay rights."
>>> In
>>> reality, they are demanding Super Rights. Super Rights are those
>>> privileges
>>> that allow one to ovverride the inalienable rights of other citizens,
>>> such
>>> as freedom of speech and association. These Super Rights-which are
>>> conferred
>>> by 'non-discrimination,' 'hate crime,' and 'hate speech' laws-allow
>>> homosexuals, if they so choose, to endanger or punish those who would
>>> exercise their associational rights to avoid them or protect their
>>> children
>>> from them.
>>>
>>>   As an example, empirical studies to date indicate that a male teacher
>>> who
>>> practices homosexuality is the most likely kind of teacher to sexually
>>> molest students. A principal knowing this may not want to hire a teacher
>>> who
>>> declares his homosexual interests. But if that teacher wants the job, his
>>> Super Rights trump the associational rights of the principal as well as
>>> the
>>> right of students not to experience extra risk (especially since safety
>>> is
>>> part of their right to life). Parents renting out one side of their
>>> duplex
>>> may not want to place their children at risk by renting to a gay couple.
>>> But
>>> if-even on a whim - the homosexuals want the duplex, their Super Rights
>>> trump the property and associational rights of the parents as well as
>>> their
>>> children's right not to be exposed to potential molestation.
>>>
>>>   The Super Rights of homosexual practitioners also squelch the right of
>>> others to freedom of speech. If a broadcaster opines that homosexual sex
>>> is
>>> dangerous, but a homosexual finds such speech 'offensive,' his Super
>>> Rights
>>> trump the broadcaster's freedom of speech and the broadcaster may be
>>> fined
>>> or imprisoned."
>>>
>>> The concept of hate crimes seems particularly reprehensible. If one of
>>> your
>>> (heterosexual) loved ones is the object of a despicable crime, the
>>> perpetrator would receive a lesser punishment than someone who committed
>>> the
>>> same act against someone who practices homosexual sex!
>>>
>>> +-+-+-
>>>
>>>    He has made clear to you, O man, what is good; and what is desired
>>> from
>>> you by the Lord; only doing what is
>>>  right, and loving mercy, and walking without pride before your God.
>>> Micah
>>> 6:8
>>> ~~~
>>>
>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>> www.theqonline.net
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1778 - Release Date: 11/9/2008
> 2:14 PM
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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From lynnwhite51 at sbcglobal.net  Mon Nov 10 03:49:04 2008
From: lynnwhite51 at sbcglobal.net (BMW)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 21:49:04 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
In-Reply-To: <4383d01d0811091912k5b4dd09bud3bef5c09b3e90fb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <17B22BE1EC2F45149C8C36923C19FEB3@TheCooksPC><356348.90200.qm@web51909.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<4383d01d0811091912k5b4dd09bud3bef5c09b3e90fb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <98D90F132DE0435A98DFE53D103F3590@lynnwhitePC>

Beth, sex outside of the relationship between a husband and wife is a sin.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: <timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com>; "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and 
religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 9:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations


> Okay, if homosexuality is a sin, guess what?  What about the
> homosexuals who have homosexual relations with each other and cannot
> be attracted to opposite sex members?  I again may mention that I have
> friends who are gay/lesbian.  And I am pleased with Obama in the white
> house.  God knows what's best, and I believe in a God who loves all,
> and God knows that homosexuality is a sin, but it is a sin between
> those who can physically have someone of the opposite sex along with
> being attracted with someone of the opposite sex.  Take my
> ex-boyfriend for instance.  He likes women, but if he went to sleep
> with a young college friend of mine who I know is attracted to girls,
> THAT is a sin.  But if my friend who is lesbian went to sleep with the
> equally lesbian girlfriend, it is not a sin.  We must love everybody
> unconditionally, and we must not say that they are committing a sin
> unless they really are and have the brain chemicals made up so that
> they are attracted to someone of the opposite sex.  I am attracted to
> menh, so if I went to sleep with my college roommate, for instance,
> that would be a in in itself.  I am blind, and if I married a blind
> man, that would be fine.  But the way this country and the bible seems
> to be interpreted, homosexuality would be stomped out and next will be
> blindness.  Before we know it, our listservs will be in jeopardy, an
> then, we wouldn't be able to marry, write, read, go to college, and if
> the Terrorists get our country, and that is if Barack Obama's not
> watching over us, we will be wearing veils if we're female.  I for one
> do not want any ore arguments about homosexuality to ever pop up again
> on this listserv.  I want to play it straight: it may be a sin, but
> unfortunately, nobody understands the homosexual cannot be changed if
> they are truly homosexual.  I understand my friends, and they are good
> people.  They are going to college and they are going to be band and
> chorus teachers.  Do you people thin that these girls I'm friends with
> shouldn't be band and chorus teachers to young children because they
> are homosexuals?  According to the weird article I read, yes.  But I'd
> hire them any time.
> Anyway, that's my soap box for today.
> Beth
>
> On 11/9/08, Frank Lordi <timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> you are speakin gof the concept of 'blood guilt'?
>>
>> This so often brought grief to Isreal, no?
>>
>>
>>
>> --- On Sun, 11/9/08, Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net> wrote:
>>
>>> From: Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>> To: "Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 8:44 PM
>>> Homosexuality is sin.
>>> Read Romans 1
>>> read first Corinthians 6
>>> Yes we need to love them just as we love all sinners, but
>>> it is time to call it what it is, and that is sin!
>>> It is a sin that will be the end of this country if we
>>> allow it to be accepted and embraced.
>>> Not a popular thought, but a true one.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Wheeler"
>>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and
>>> religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 6:29 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>
>>>
>>> > Never mind.  I keep telling you it is called a sin in
>>> the bible...if you don't want to believe that God calls
>>> it a sin, I can't say anything to sway you.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > +-+-+-
>>> >
>>> >   There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none
>>> beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
>>> > 1 Samuel 2:2
>>> > ~~~
>>> >
>>> > Alan D Wheeler
>>> > awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>> > IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>> > Skype: redwheel1
>>> > Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM
>>> eastern time at www.theqonline.net
>>> >
>>> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beth"
>>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>> > To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and
>>> religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> > Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 2:41 PM
>>> > Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >> We're talking about a country where not
>>> everybody believes in God.  We
>>> >> Christians are shoving God down the throats of
>>> those who don't know
>>> >> him.  We need to pray for the homosexuals and
>>> those who are
>>> >> experiencing a so-called sin ad we need to be
>>> nicer to these people
>>> >> for God's own sake.
>>> >> Beth
>>> >>
>>> >> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler
>>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>> >>> At the same time, homosexuality is called a
>>> sin and abomination by God. So
>>> >>> you think we should allow people to continue
>>> to sin against God?
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> +-+-+-
>>> >>>
>>> >>>    We know that all things work together for
>>> good for those who love God, to
>>> >>> those
>>> >>> who are called according to his purpose.
>>> >>>  Romans 8:28
>>> >>> ~~~
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Alan D Wheeler
>>> >>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>> >>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>> >>> Skype: redwheel1
>>> >>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1
>>> PM eastern time at
>>> >>> www.theqonline.net
>>> >>>
>>> >>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> >>> From: "Beth"
>>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>> >>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of
>>> faith and religion"
>>> >>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> >>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:44 AM
>>> >>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>> I would have toagree with Julie.  Marriage
>>> is about love, not
>>> >>>> procreative reasons only.  I've known
>>> friends who've gotten married as
>>> >>>> nonprocreative peoples.  Also, has anybody
>>> thought that marriage
>>> >>>> should at least be for those that can
>>> participate in it as well?
>>> >>>> Also, if we have bans on same-sex
>>> marriage, think of it this way: we
>>> >>>> are forcing religion on the people, which
>>> God really doesn't want us
>>> >>>> to do.  To be Christ-like is not to shove
>>> God down the throats of
>>> >>>> those who don't know him, but to
>>> spread God's love to them, to let
>>> >>>> them be free people.
>>> >>>> Beth
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler
>>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>> >>>>> Beth,
>>> >>>>> I gently disagree with you.  Marriage
>>> was designed by God to be between a
>>> >>>>> man and a woman.  Don't take issue
>>> because I said it.  Study the Bible
>>> >>>>> and
>>> >>>>> if you still don't like it, then
>>> you have to take it up with God.  It was
>>> >>>>> His idea to begin with, not man's.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> +-+-+-
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>    The LORD is my strength and song,
>>> and he is become my salvation: he is
>>> >>>>> my
>>> >>>>> God, and I will prepare him an
>>> >>>>>  habitation; my father's God, and
>>> I will exalt him.
>>> >>>>>  Exodus 15:2
>>> >>>>> ~~~
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>> >>>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>> >>>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>> >>>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>> >>>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10
>>> AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>> >>>>> www.theqonline.net
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> >>>>> From: "Beth"
>>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>> >>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the
>>> discussion of faith and religion"
>>> >>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 7:29
>>> AM
>>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False
>>> Accusations
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>> I don't care if Obama's
>>> half-black.  God's people will come to
>>> >>>>>> understand a few things:
>>> >>>>>> 1. Marriage, for example, is not
>>> between "one man and one woman".  It
>>> >>>>>> is between two able parties, same
>>> o different sex, that are actually
>>> >>>>>> willing to stay together.  Our
>>> high divorce rate of heterosexual
>>> >>>>>> couples mostly is bad for our
>>> children herein America.
>>> >>>>>> 2. Abortion should never happen.
>>> If it's something that has to do
>>> >>>>>> with the mother's life and
>>> health, then that's the only exception.
>>> >>>>>> But rape and birth control reasons
>>> are not good ones.
>>> >>>>>> 3. Blind people can and wwill have
>>> equal rights to vote, gain security
>>> >>>>>> benefits, and so on.  Yes,
>>> Obama's the most liberal, but we need him.
>>> >>>>>> Maybe he's a lot more
>>> Christian than Bush was.  But God's people must
>>> >>>>>> not be against him.  I'm a
>>> Catholic, and I'm also a liberal as well.
>>> >>>>>> Obama has also beat Kennedy by so
>>> many years.  ANything having to do
>>> >>>>>> with race is out as far as I'm
>>> concerned.  Next, what will happen when
>>> >>>>>> a woman is in the White House?
>>> What about a blind woman? lol
>>> >>>>>> Beth
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> On 11/8/08, Linda Mentink
>>> <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
>>> >>>>>>> Hi Julie,
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> I'm sorry, too.  I'm
>>> not against our president elect because he's
>>> >>>>>>> black.  Fact is, he's half
>>> black.  That's neither here nor
>>> >>>>>>> there.  It's mainly
>>> because he's the most liberal of all in Congress,
>>> >>>>>>> and I believe that a lot of
>>> our rights will be taken away once he is
>>> >>>>>>> sworn in.  We'll see what
>>> happens, but I'm praying for him, and all
>>> >>>>>>> the rest in authority over us.
>>>  I sent those things to you because I
>>> >>>>>>> knew you wouldn't find out
>>> from the mainstream media.  But the
>>> >>>>>>> election has made history, and
>>> God's people need to be more vigilent
>>> >>>>>>> than
>>> >>>>>>> ever.
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> Blessings,
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> Linda
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> At 03:33 PM 11/8/2008, you
>>> wrote:
>>> >>>>>>>> It happened by accident.
>>> When you didn't stop attacking in my
>>> >>>>>>>> in-box--those of you who
>>> did it--people of other races by way of our
>>> >>>>>>>> new President-elect, I
>>> wrote what I wrote.  Now you know how false
>>> >>>>>>>> accusations hurt
>>> everybody.  Because of one man the African-American
>>> >>>>>>>> Church, and people who
>>> attend them, have been under tremendous
>>> >>>>>>>> attack ever since last
>>> March with no let-up.  Ever since I began
>>> >>>>>>>> attending and became saved
>>> in African-American churches in 1972,
>>> >>>>>>>> I've heard dirty,
>>> dirty comments like:  "they just do in their
>>> >>>>>>>> church what they did in
>>> the slave days."  In the slave days,
>>> >>>>>>>> African-Americans
>>> weren't permitted to know anything of the Bible
>>> >>>>>>>> but "Servants obey
>>> your masters in the Lord for this is right.
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>> If people say what people
>>> have said about one another's churches
>>> >>>>>>>> ever since last March,
>>> referring to us as blind people, we'd be up
>>> >>>>>>>> in arms.  Let us all be
>>> more careful.
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>> It hit me like a
>>> thunderbolt while I was playing piano at a senior
>>> >>>>>>>> citizens building today
>>> why you all were upset.  And as upset as you
>>> >>>>>>>> were last Thursday night,
>>> Linda, I was that upset one month ago when
>>> >>>>>>>> I read what you
>>> particularly sent me privately at 5:00 on a Sunday
>>> >>>>>>>> morning while  I was
>>> getting ready for church.  I'm sorry and maybe
>>> >>>>>>>> we can understand one
>>> another better now.
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>  has been
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>> "Loyalty to petrified
>>> opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a
>>> >>>>>>>> human soul," American
>>> Humorist Mark Twain
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>> "An attack on one of
>>> us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth
>>> >>>>>>>> Jernigan, Immediate Past
>>> President, National Federation of the Blind
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>> "A brother offended
>>> is harder to be won than a strong city: and
>>> >>>>>>>> their contentions are like
>>> the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>> "Faith is the ability
>>> to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>> "No one can do it for
>>> us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push,
>>> >>>>>>>> 1976.
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>> "With proper
>>> training, development, and opportunity, blindness can
>>> >>>>>>>> be reduced to the level of
>>> a physical nuisance or characteristic,"
>>> >>>>>>>> the Late Dr. Kenneth
>>> Jernigan, Past President, National Federation
>>> >>>>>>>> of the Blind.
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>> Julie Vogt or
>>> jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> >>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change
>>> your list options or get your account info
>>> >>>>>>>> for Faith-talk:
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> >>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your
>>> list options or get your account info for
>>> >>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> >>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> >>>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list
>>> options or get your account info for
>>> >>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>> >>>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> No virus found in this incoming
>>> message.
>>> >>>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>> >>>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database:
>>> 270.9.0/1776 - Release Date: 11/8/2008
>>> >>>>> 6:49 PM
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> >>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> >>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list
>>> options or get your account info for
>>> >>>>> Faith-talk:
>>> >>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> >>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> >>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options
>>> or get your account info for
>>> >>>> Faith-talk:
>>> >>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>> >>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>> >>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database:
>>> 270.9.0/1778 - Release Date: 11/9/2008
>>> >>> 2:14 PM
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> >>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> >>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or
>>> get your account info for
>>> >>> Faith-talk:
>>> >>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> >> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> >>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get
>>> your account info for Faith-talk:
>>> >>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > No virus found in this incoming message.
>>> > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>> > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1778 -
>>> Release Date: 11/9/2008 2:14 PM
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Faith-talk mailing list
>>> > Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> >
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>> account info for Faith-talk:
>>> >
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>>> >
>>> Corey Cook
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>> account info for Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/timber_wolf899%40yahoo.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/lynnwhite51%40sbcglobal.net 




From timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 10 04:02:03 2008
From: timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com (Frank Lordi)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 20:02:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
In-Reply-To: <98D90F132DE0435A98DFE53D103F3590@lynnwhitePC>
Message-ID: <579159.68070.qm@web51906.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

The bible clearly states that homosexual sex is an abomination.

This is one of the hardest things about believing.  We must submit to God's law.  We are 'a stif fnecked people' so this is difficult but we must do it.  We need not understand, we need not agree, but we must obey.  Our Lord says those are his friends who keep his commands.  So if we want to be his friend, we must accept among other things, that homosexual sex is a sin.

Perhaps it will help to look at it this way.  I like women a great deal.  I cannot stop liking women.  Often times i 'want' badly to have relations with said women, but God's law says no, so i must follow this or accept the wages of sin.  

The same goes for homosexuals, for cleptomaniacs, for the greedy, the hopeless, etc.  We all have our crosses to carry, our temptations to resist.

--- On Sun, 11/9/08, BMW <lynnwhite51 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> From: BMW <lynnwhite51 at sbcglobal.net>
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
> To: "Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 10:49 PM
> Beth, sex outside of the relationship between a husband and
> wife is a sin.
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> To: <timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com>; "Faith-talk,for
> the discussion of faith and 
> religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 9:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
> 
> 
> > Okay, if homosexuality is a sin, guess what?  What
> about the
> > homosexuals who have homosexual relations with each
> other and cannot
> > be attracted to opposite sex members?  I again may
> mention that I have
> > friends who are gay/lesbian.  And I am pleased with
> Obama in the white
> > house.  God knows what's best, and I believe in a
> God who loves all,
> > and God knows that homosexuality is a sin, but it is a
> sin between
> > those who can physically have someone of the opposite
> sex along with
> > being attracted with someone of the opposite sex. 
> Take my
> > ex-boyfriend for instance.  He likes women, but if he
> went to sleep
> > with a young college friend of mine who I know is
> attracted to girls,
> > THAT is a sin.  But if my friend who is lesbian went
> to sleep with the
> > equally lesbian girlfriend, it is not a sin.  We must
> love everybody
> > unconditionally, and we must not say that they are
> committing a sin
> > unless they really are and have the brain chemicals
> made up so that
> > they are attracted to someone of the opposite sex.  I
> am attracted to
> > menh, so if I went to sleep with my college roommate,
> for instance,
> > that would be a in in itself.  I am blind, and if I
> married a blind
> > man, that would be fine.  But the way this country and
> the bible seems
> > to be interpreted, homosexuality would be stomped out
> and next will be
> > blindness.  Before we know it, our listservs will be
> in jeopardy, an
> > then, we wouldn't be able to marry, write, read,
> go to college, and if
> > the Terrorists get our country, and that is if Barack
> Obama's not
> > watching over us, we will be wearing veils if
> we're female.  I for one
> > do not want any ore arguments about homosexuality to
> ever pop up again
> > on this listserv.  I want to play it straight: it may
> be a sin, but
> > unfortunately, nobody understands the homosexual
> cannot be changed if
> > they are truly homosexual.  I understand my friends,
> and they are good
> > people.  They are going to college and they are going
> to be band and
> > chorus teachers.  Do you people thin that these girls
> I'm friends with
> > shouldn't be band and chorus teachers to young
> children because they
> > are homosexuals?  According to the weird article I
> read, yes.  But I'd
> > hire them any time.
> > Anyway, that's my soap box for today.
> > Beth
> >
> > On 11/9/08, Frank Lordi
> <timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> you are speakin gof the concept of 'blood
> guilt'?
> >>
> >> This so often brought grief to Isreal, no?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --- On Sun, 11/9/08, Corey Cook
> <ccook01 at knology.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> From: Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net>
> >>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
> >>> To: "Faith-talk, for the discussion of
> faith and religion"
> >>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> >>> Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 8:44 PM
> >>> Homosexuality is sin.
> >>> Read Romans 1
> >>> read first Corinthians 6
> >>> Yes we need to love them just as we love all
> sinners, but
> >>> it is time to call it what it is, and that is
> sin!
> >>> It is a sin that will be the end of this
> country if we
> >>> allow it to be accepted and embraced.
> >>> Not a popular thought, but a true one.
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan
> Wheeler"
> >>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
> >>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of
> faith and
> >>> religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> >>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 6:29 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> > Never mind.  I keep telling you it is
> called a sin in
> >>> the bible...if you don't want to believe
> that God calls
> >>> it a sin, I can't say anything to sway
> you.
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > +-+-+-
> >>> >
> >>> >   There is none holy as the LORD: for
> there is none
> >>> beside thee: neither is there any rock like
> our God.
> >>> > 1 Samuel 2:2
> >>> > ~~~
> >>> >
> >>> > Alan D Wheeler
> >>> > awheeler at neb.rr.com
> >>> > IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
> >>> > Skype: redwheel1
> >>> > Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM
> to 1 PM
> >>> eastern time at www.theqonline.net
> >>> >
> >>> > ----- Original Message ----- From:
> "Beth"
> >>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> >>> > To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion
> of faith and
> >>> religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> >>> > Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 2:41 PM
> >>> > Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False
> Accusations
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >> We're talking about a country
> where not
> >>> everybody believes in God.  We
> >>> >> Christians are shoving God down the
> throats of
> >>> those who don't know
> >>> >> him.  We need to pray for the
> homosexuals and
> >>> those who are
> >>> >> experiencing a so-called sin ad we
> need to be
> >>> nicer to these people
> >>> >> for God's own sake.
> >>> >> Beth
> >>> >>
> >>> >> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler
> >>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
> >>> >>> At the same time, homosexuality
> is called a
> >>> sin and abomination by God. So
> >>> >>> you think we should allow people
> to continue
> >>> to sin against God?
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> +-+-+-
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>>    We know that all things work
> together for
> >>> good for those who love God, to
> >>> >>> those
> >>> >>> who are called according to his
> purpose.
> >>> >>>  Romans 8:28
> >>> >>> ~~~
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> Alan D Wheeler
> >>> >>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
> >>> >>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
> >>> >>> Skype: redwheel1
> >>> >>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays
> from 10 AM to 1
> >>> PM eastern time at
> >>> >>> www.theqonline.net
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> >>> From: "Beth"
> >>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> >>> >>> To: "Faith-talk,for the
> discussion of
> >>> faith and religion"
> >>> >>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> >>> >>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008
> 10:44 AM
> >>> >>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False
> Accusations
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>>> I would have toagree with
> Julie.  Marriage
> >>> is about love, not
> >>> >>>> procreative reasons only. 
> I've known
> >>> friends who've gotten married as
> >>> >>>> nonprocreative peoples. 
> Also, has anybody
> >>> thought that marriage
> >>> >>>> should at least be for those
> that can
> >>> participate in it as well?
> >>> >>>> Also, if we have bans on
> same-sex
> >>> marriage, think of it this way: we
> >>> >>>> are forcing religion on the
> people, which
> >>> God really doesn't want us
> >>> >>>> to do.  To be Christ-like is
> not to shove
> >>> God down the throats of
> >>> >>>> those who don't know him,
> but to
> >>> spread God's love to them, to let
> >>> >>>> them be free people.
> >>> >>>> Beth
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler
> >>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
> >>> >>>>> Beth,
> >>> >>>>> I gently disagree with
> you.  Marriage
> >>> was designed by God to be between a
> >>> >>>>> man and a woman. 
> Don't take issue
> >>> because I said it.  Study the Bible
> >>> >>>>> and
> >>> >>>>> if you still don't
> like it, then
> >>> you have to take it up with God.  It was
> >>> >>>>> His idea to begin with,
> not man's.
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>> +-+-+-
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>>    The LORD is my
> strength and song,
> >>> and he is become my salvation: he is
> >>> >>>>> my
> >>> >>>>> God, and I will prepare
> him an
> >>> >>>>>  habitation; my
> father's God, and
> >>> I will exalt him.
> >>> >>>>>  Exodus 15:2
> >>> >>>>> ~~~
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>> Alan D Wheeler
> >>> >>>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
> >>> >>>>> IM me at:
> outlaw-cowboy at live.com
> >>> >>>>> Skype: redwheel1
> >>> >>>>> Check me out on the Q,
> Fridays from 10
> >>> AM to 1 PM eastern time at
> >>> >>>>> www.theqonline.net
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>> ----- Original Message
> -----
> >>> >>>>> From: "Beth"
> >>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> >>> >>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for
> the
> >>> discussion of faith and religion"
> >>> >>>>>
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> >>> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, November
> 09, 2008 7:29
> >>> AM
> >>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk]
> False
> >>> Accusations
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>>> I don't care if
> Obama's
> >>> half-black.  God's people will come to
> >>> >>>>>> understand a few
> things:
> >>> >>>>>> 1. Marriage, for
> example, is not
> >>> between "one man and one woman".  It
> >>> >>>>>> is between two able
> parties, same
> >>> o different sex, that are actually
> >>> >>>>>> willing to stay
> together.  Our
> >>> high divorce rate of heterosexual
> >>> >>>>>> couples mostly is bad
> for our
> >>> children herein America.
> >>> >>>>>> 2. Abortion should
> never happen.
> >>> If it's something that has to do
> >>> >>>>>> with the mother's
> life and
> >>> health, then that's the only exception.
> >>> >>>>>> But rape and birth
> control reasons
> >>> are not good ones.
> >>> >>>>>> 3. Blind people can
> and wwill have
> >>> equal rights to vote, gain security
> >>> >>>>>> benefits, and so on. 
> Yes,
> >>> Obama's the most liberal, but we need him.
> >>> >>>>>> Maybe he's a lot
> more
> >>> Christian than Bush was.  But God's people
> must
> >>> >>>>>> not be against him. 
> I'm a
> >>> Catholic, and I'm also a liberal as well.
> >>> >>>>>> Obama has also beat
> Kennedy by so
> >>> many years.  ANything having to do
> >>> >>>>>> with race is out as
> far as I'm
> >>> concerned.  Next, what will happen when
> >>> >>>>>> a woman is in the
> White House?
> >>> What about a blind woman? lol
> >>> >>>>>> Beth
> >>> >>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>> On 11/8/08, Linda
> Mentink
> >>> <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
> >>> >>>>>>> Hi Julie,
> >>> >>>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>>> I'm sorry,
> too.  I'm
> >>> not against our president elect because
> he's
> >>> >>>>>>> black.  Fact is,
> he's half
> >>> black.  That's neither here nor
> >>> >>>>>>> there.  It's
> mainly
> >>> because he's the most liberal of all in
> Congress,
> >>> >>>>>>> and I believe
> that a lot of
> >>> our rights will be taken away once he is
> >>> >>>>>>> sworn in. 
> We'll see what
> >>> happens, but I'm praying for him, and all
> >>> >>>>>>> the rest in
> authority over us.
> >>>  I sent those things to you because I
> >>> >>>>>>> knew you
> wouldn't find out
> >>> from the mainstream media.  But the
> >>> >>>>>>> election has made
> history, and
> >>> God's people need to be more vigilent
> >>> >>>>>>> than
> >>> >>>>>>> ever.
> >>> >>>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>>> Blessings,
> >>> >>>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>>> Linda
> >>> >>>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>>> At 03:33 PM
> 11/8/2008, you
> >>> wrote:
> >>> >>>>>>>> It happened
> by accident.
> >>> When you didn't stop attacking in my
> >>> >>>>>>>> in-box--those
> of you who
> >>> did it--people of other races by way of our
> >>> >>>>>>>> new
> President-elect, I
> >>> wrote what I wrote.  Now you know how false
> >>> >>>>>>>> accusations
> hurt
> >>> everybody.  Because of one man the
> African-American
> >>> >>>>>>>> Church, and
> people who
> >>> attend them, have been under tremendous
> >>> >>>>>>>> attack ever
> since last
> >>> March with no let-up.  Ever since I began
> >>> >>>>>>>> attending and
> became saved
> >>> in African-American churches in 1972,
> >>> >>>>>>>> I've
> heard dirty,
> >>> dirty comments like:  "they just do in
> their
> >>> >>>>>>>> church what
> they did in
> >>> the slave days."  In the slave days,
> >>> >>>>>>>>
> African-Americans
> >>> weren't permitted to know anything of the
> Bible
> >>> >>>>>>>> but
> "Servants obey
> >>> your masters in the Lord for this is right.
> >>> >>>>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>>>> If people say
> what people
> >>> have said about one another's churches
> >>> >>>>>>>> ever since
> last March,
> >>> referring to us as blind people, we'd be
> up
> >>> >>>>>>>> in arms.  Let
> us all be
> >>> more careful.
> >>> >>>>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>>>> It hit me
> like a
> >>> thunderbolt while I was playing piano at a
> senior
> >>> >>>>>>>> citizens
> building today
> >>> why you all were upset.  And as upset as you
> >>> >>>>>>>> were last
> Thursday night,
> >>> Linda, I was that upset one month ago when
> >>> >>>>>>>> I read what
> you
> >>> particularly sent me privately at 5:00 on a
> Sunday
> >>> >>>>>>>> morning while
>  I was
> >>> getting ready for church.  I'm sorry and
> maybe
> >>> >>>>>>>> we can
> understand one
> >>> another better now.
> >>> >>>>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>>>>  has been
> >>> >>>>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>>>> "Loyalty
> to petrified
> >>> opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a
> >>> >>>>>>>> human
> soul," American
> >>> Humorist Mark Twain
> >>> >>>>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>>>> "An
> attack on one of
> >>> us is an attack on all of us," Dr.
> Kenneth
> >>> >>>>>>>> Jernigan,
> Immediate Past
> >>> President, National Federation of the Blind
> >>> >>>>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>>>> "A
> brother offended
> >>> is harder to be won than a strong city: and
> >>> >>>>>>>> their
> contentions are like
> >>> the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19.
> KJV
> >>> >>>>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>>>> "Faith
> is the ability
> >>> to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
> >>> >>>>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>>>> "No one
> can do it for
> >>> us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation
> Push,
> >>> >>>>>>>> 1976.
> >>> >>>>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>>>> "With
> proper
> >>> training, development, and opportunity,
> blindness can
> >>> >>>>>>>> be reduced to
> the level of
> >>> a physical nuisance or characteristic,"
> >>> >>>>>>>> the Late Dr.
> Kenneth
> >>> Jernigan, Past President, National Federation
> >>> >>>>>>>> of the Blind.
> >>> >>>>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>>>> Julie Vogt or
> >>> jcvogt at pressenter.com
> >>> >>>>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>>>>
> >>>
> _______________________________________________
> >>> >>>>>>>> Faith-talk
> mailing list
> >>> >>>>>>>>
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> >>> >>>>>>>>
> >>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> >>> >>>>>>>> To
> unsubscribe, change
> >>> your list options or get your account info
> >>> >>>>>>>> for
> Faith-talk:
> >>> >>>>>>>>
> >>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net
> >>> >>>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>>>
> >>>
> _______________________________________________
> >>> >>>>>>> Faith-talk
> mailing list
> >>> >>>>>>>
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> >>> >>>>>>>
> >>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> >>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe,
> change your
> >>> list options or get your account info for
> >>> >>>>>>> Faith-talk:
> >>> >>>>>>>
> >>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
> >>> >>>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>>
> >>>
> _______________________________________________
> >>> >>>>>> Faith-talk mailing
> list
> >>> >>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> >>> >>>>>>
> >>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> >>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe,
> change your list
> >>> options or get your account info for
> >>> >>>>>> Faith-talk:
> >>> >>>>>>
> >>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>>
> >>>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>> No virus found in this
> incoming
> >>> message.
> >>> >>>>> Checked by AVG -
> http://www.avg.com
> >>> >>>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus
> Database:
> >>> 270.9.0/1776 - Release Date: 11/8/2008
> >>> >>>>> 6:49 PM
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>>
> >>>
> _______________________________________________
> >>> >>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
> >>> >>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> >>> >>>>>
> >>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> >>> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change
> your list
> >>> options or get your account info for
> >>> >>>>> Faith-talk:
> >>> >>>>>
> >>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>>
> >>>
> _______________________________________________
> >>> >>>> Faith-talk mailing list
> >>> >>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> >>> >>>>
> >>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> >>> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your
> list options
> >>> or get your account info for
> >>> >>>> Faith-talk:
> >>> >>>>
> >>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>>
> >>>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> No virus found in this incoming
> message.
> >>> >>> Checked by AVG -
> http://www.avg.com
> >>> >>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus
> Database:
> >>> 270.9.0/1778 - Release Date: 11/9/2008
> >>> >>> 2:14 PM
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>>
> >>>
> _______________________________________________
> >>> >>> Faith-talk mailing list
> >>> >>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> >>> >>>
> >>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list
> options or
> >>> get your account info for
> >>> >>> Faith-talk:
> >>> >>>
> >>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> _______________________________________________
> >>> >> Faith-talk mailing list
> >>> >> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> >>> >>
> >>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> >>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list
> options or get
> >>> your account info for Faith-talk:
> >>> >>
> >>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> >>> > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> >>> > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database:
> 270.9.0/1778 -
> >>> Release Date: 11/9/2008 2:14 PM
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> _______________________________________________
> >>> > Faith-talk mailing list
> >>> > Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> >>> >
> >>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options
> or get your
> >>> account info for Faith-talk:
> >>> >
> >>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
> >>> >
> >>> Corey Cook
> >>>
> >>>
> _______________________________________________
> >>> Faith-talk mailing list
> >>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> >>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or
> get your
> >>> account info for Faith-talk:
> >>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/timber_wolf899%40yahoo.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Faith-talk mailing list
> >> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> >>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get
> your account info for
> >> Faith-talk:
> >>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Faith-talk mailing list
> > Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> >
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
> account info for 
> > Faith-talk:
> >
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/lynnwhite51%40sbcglobal.net
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
> account info for Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/timber_wolf899%40yahoo.com


      



From mentink at frontiernet.net  Mon Nov 10 04:07:04 2008
From: mentink at frontiernet.net (Linda Mentink)
Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2008 22:07:04 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Discussion
Message-ID: <20081110040703.1E100CCAF8@relay04.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>

Hi all,

I have had my computer off since last night, but have read all the 
messages, except the articles.

Now, I'm speaking as a list member, and not the moderator, just so 
we're clear here.  I believe the Bible--all of it.  It lays out very 
clearly what sin is, what marriage is, what being a Christian is, and 
much, much more.   The Bible says that homosexuality is a sin, and 
there are no true Christians who practice this as a lifestyle.   As 
has been said here, it's not our opinion; God doesn't care what we 
think, but what we believe His Word, the Bible, to say.  The Bible is 
the Christian's guidebook.

Because we are being forced to forget God in many public arenas, we 
as a nation are not following His Word.  We are to love the sinner, 
but not the sin.  Enough said from me on that point.

I encourage all of you to daily read and study your Bibles, and apply 
what you read to your lives each day.  Most in this country are not 
believers, Christians, so we should expect them to behave as they 
do.  We who call ourselves Christians should live separate, holy 
lives, that we might win others to Christ.  That means how we dress, 
what music we listen to, how we speak, how we spend our time, what we 
read, who we hang around with, etc.  Things are going to get worse 
for us here, so we'd better be grounded in the Word of God, and stay 
close to Him in prayer.

Blessings,

Linda




From ccook01 at knology.net  Mon Nov 10 04:10:30 2008
From: ccook01 at knology.net (Corey Cook)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 23:10:30 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Emailing: Last Days Ministries I'm Gay, O.K.
In-Reply-To: <4383d01d0811091933w2fff5563r4b7dc4d58c5eb47c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <35A03D458698454A84A02B53EB5728FC@Buster><0AE2D4A5152D4796862C6EFB2E88D3AE@nickf1758c2c9d>
	<4383d01d0811091933w2fff5563r4b7dc4d58c5eb47c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <51F80346922741C993A5556C1CC6DECD@TheCooksPC>

Christians have always believed marriage is between a man and a woman. 
Christians have never said only the able bodied should have kids.
In many ways Christian groups have lead in helping those of us who are not 
"abled"
Please get the facts right.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:33 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Emailing: Last Days Ministries I'm Gay, O.K.


> Come on!  I've said it enough.  Marriage isn't going to just be
> "between ONE MAN and ONE WOMAN" enough these days.  Before you know
> it, Christians will interpret the Bible as being of the able-bodied to
> be perfect and capable of multiplyin and so on.  This is horrible!
> Bet
>
> On 11/9/08, trising at sbcglobal.net <trising at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> That is an absolutely excellent article! All of us sin and fall short of 
>> the
>> glory of God, whether we are gay or a gossip. Jesus loves all of us and 
>> came
>> here to die in our place for our sins so we can go to heaven and be with
>> him. We will not go there if we do not trust in Him alone as the provider 
>> of
>> our salvation. People who commit any sin, and that means all of us, 
>> deserve
>> to be loved, but not to have our sin excused or minimized. It is God's
>> design for marriage to be between one man and one woman. we as Christians
>> can stand up for what is right, while loving those caught in homosexual 
>> sin.
>> Giving them special rights is wrong, but so is refusing to talk to them, 
>> or
>> regarding them as someone God cannot save.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>
Corey Cook 




From ccook01 at knology.net  Mon Nov 10 04:11:27 2008
From: ccook01 at knology.net (Corey Cook)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 23:11:27 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] More about homosexuality.
In-Reply-To: <4383d01d0811091935p20569efbgd548b90f9d9e5d5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <45DA65A746C4427D84681755CC35CB99@Alan><4383d01d0811091253x2afd9cffu8fc0dcd74995a54d@mail.gmail.com><6101B7CE164848B5B6D1EEF3DD03A35B@Alan>
	<4383d01d0811091935p20569efbgd548b90f9d9e5d5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A737AEAE2160401F991E8A74E162AE95@TheCooksPC>

And God will win.
Just a friendly for warning about arguing with God.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:35 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] More about homosexuality.


> That's fine by me.
> Beth
>
> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>> Beth,
>> for the ***FINAL** time.  Your argument is with God *NOT* with me.  It's 
>> in
>> the Bible...God's word.  People not believing it doesn't make it less 
>> true.
>> If you want to dispute God's truth...dispute it with God and not me.
>>
>>
>> +-+-+-
>>
>>    There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither 
>> is
>> there any rock like our God.
>>  1 Samuel 2:2
>> ~~~
>>
>> Alan D Wheeler
>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>> Skype: redwheel1
>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>> www.theqonline.net
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 2:53 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] More about homosexuality.
>>
>>
>>> Allan, this article is severely biased and is hurtful to homosexual
>>> friends of mine.  Thank God they didn't read this.  To be honest, I
>>> love my friends, all my friends heterosexual and homosexual.  Every
>>> kid has the right to two loving parents, but not necessarily a mom and
>>> a dad.  Gay couples and lesbian couples are still adoptable couples.
>>> I've seen a lesbian couple that adopted two Cree First Nations
>>> children.  I saw a gay couple adopt special needs twins who had
>>> addiction problems.  This country needs to be more progressive and
>>> stop attacking homosexuals because they are homosexuals.  Before you
>>> know it, Allan, this country will put blind and visually impaired
>>> people as well as cognitively disabled people in their places: along
>>> with the homosexuals, below sighted and heterosexual people.  Before
>>> you know it, Allan, African Americans will be kicked out of office and
>>> there will be an assassination attempt on Barack Obama, who I hope
>>> will reign for eight long and healthy years.  Please watch what you're
>>> saying!  We're all Christians on this list!  Can't we accept others'
>>> beliefs and opinions here?  I'm not trying to be psychic and prophetic
>>> here, but please understand that I am very concerned that this nation
>>> is going to fall down like Rome did and we won't have a very healthy
>>> end if you know what I mean.  And not everybody believes in God.  And
>>> God loves everybody, and even though it is written that homosexuality
>>> is a sin, attacking homosexuals who are not atracted and refuse to be
>>> attracted to the opposite sex is wrong.  We cannot an will not attack
>>> others because they are a different brand of homo sapiens sapiens.
>>> Beth
>>>
>>> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>>> I went to www.biblegateway.com to see what I could find about
>>>> homosexuality
>>>> and the bible.  This was among the resources.  So, again I say, and 
>>>> this
>>>> is
>>>> my last comment on the subject, if you disagree that marriage is only 
>>>> for
>>>> men and women, then your argument is with God.  It's in His book.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.faithfacts.org/christ-and-the-culture/gay-rights#marriage
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Sanctity of Marriage
>>>> In recent years, the homosexual movement has centered on giving
>>>> marriage-like benefits to gay couples. Many in the culture have
>>>> mistakenly
>>>> concluded that marriage is merely an institution for the convenience of
>>>> adults. In actuality, marriage is the bedrock institution for culture 
>>>> to
>>>> sustain itself through having and nurturing children. There are
>>>> complementary aspects to a man and woman that are important to the
>>>> instutution of marriage which go beyond the obvious physical 
>>>> attributes.
>>>> There are things that a man needs that can only be provided by a woman,
>>>> and
>>>> vice versa.
>>>>
>>>> These complementary aspects are important to the relationship of the
>>>> couple
>>>> itself, as well as to the children. One does not have to appeal to
>>>> religion
>>>> to instinctively understand this. Yet statistics verify the structure 
>>>> of
>>>> the
>>>> traditional family as the approach to raising children that gives the
>>>> best
>>>> measurable results. The overwhelming body of social science research
>>>> agrees
>>>> that children do best when raised in homes with married, opposite-sex
>>>> parents. Every child has the right to both a mom and a dad.
>>>>
>>>> Yet we cannot divorce the institution of marriage from its theological
>>>> roots. We acknowledge that marriage is an institution given by God
>>>> (Genesis
>>>> 2:24). The Creator of the Universe established the relationship between 
>>>> a
>>>> man and a woman, thus it is a divine institution, not a human one. To
>>>> confer
>>>> marriage-like rights to gays is not the prerogative of people (Matthew
>>>> 19:6). (This includes civil unions or domestic partnerships, as they 
>>>> are
>>>> merely marriage by other names.) Defining marriage is the prerogative 
>>>> of
>>>> God. Whatever may tend to undermine the institution of marriage would
>>>> also
>>>> undermine the authority of God, as well as hurt society.
>>>>
>>>> Liberals may argue, "Why should we arbitrarily select only heterosexual
>>>> couples for marriage? What can it hurt if two homosexuals want to 
>>>> marry?"
>>>> The answer is surprisingly simple. The institution of marriage between
>>>> and
>>>> man a woman is not, in fact, arbitrary. It's purpose is clear and of
>>>> utmost
>>>> importance to society.
>>>>
>>>> David Orland in an article entitled "The Deceit of Gay Marriage" puts 
>>>> it
>>>> very well. He says:
>>>>
>>>>   To justify giving privileges or exemptions or subsidies to some
>>>> particular
>>>> group in society, the benefit of doing so for society at large must 
>>>> first
>>>> be
>>>> shown. With heterosexual marriage, the case is clear enough. 
>>>> Heterosexual
>>>> marriage is a matter of genuine social interest because the family is
>>>> essential to society's reproduction. The crux of my argument, in other
>>>> words, was that married couples receive the benefits they do, not 
>>>> because
>>>> the state is interested in promoting romantic love, or because the 
>>>> Bible
>>>> says so or because of the influence of special interest groups but 
>>>> rather
>>>> because the next generation is something that is and should be of
>>>> interest
>>>> to all of us. And, by definition, this is not a case that can be made 
>>>> for
>>>> homosexual unions. To that degree, the attempt to turn the question of
>>>> domestic partnership into a debate about fairness falls flat.
>>>>
>>>>   The more persistent supporters of domestic partnership will of course
>>>> respond to this argument by pointing to the case in which homosexual
>>>> partners adopt children or, in the case of lesbians, undergo artificial
>>>> insemination. The intention here is to show that the nuclear family is
>>>> found
>>>> even among homosexual couples and that, to that extent, homosexual 
>>>> unions
>>>> do
>>>> indeed meet the same criterion of social interest as heterosexual ones
>>>> and
>>>> thus should be granted legal status. It is a weak argument and one that
>>>> ultimately back-fires on those who employ it. This is for two reasons:
>>>>
>>>>   First, adoption by homosexual couples is still exceedingly rare and 
>>>> the
>>>> law-though many are surprised to learn this-is aimed at the general 
>>>> case.
>>>> To
>>>> confer legal benefits on the entire class of would-be homosexual 
>>>> spouses
>>>> just because some very small minority of this class approximates the
>>>> pattern
>>>> of the nuclear family would be a bit like admitting all applicants to a
>>>> select university on the grounds that a few of them had been shown to
>>>> meet
>>>> the entrance requirements.
>>>>
>>>>   Second, the right of this small minority to the benefits of marriage 
>>>> is
>>>> dubious in the extreme. Homosexual "families" of whatever type are 
>>>> always
>>>> and necessarily parasitic on heterosexual ones.
>>>>
>>>> Every child has the right to a mom and a dad. See 5 Reasons Why 
>>>> Same-Sex
>>>> Marriage Harms Children.
>>>>
>>>> But homosexuals not only want fair treatment, they are pushing for 
>>>> "Super
>>>> Rights." According the Paul Cameron of the Family Research Institute:
>>>>
>>>>   "Every member of society has a duty to contribute to the 
>>>> commonwealth.
>>>> Yet
>>>> the empirical evidence indicates that those who engage in homosexuality
>>>> 1)
>>>> contribute less and cost more in goods and services, 2)
>>>> disproportionately
>>>> disrupt social functioning, and 3) have few children while being more 
>>>> apt
>>>> to
>>>> harm them. Thus, homosexual practioners not only fail to 'pay for their
>>>> keep,' but by their negative influence on children, cloud society's
>>>> future.
>>>>
>>>>   Those who engage in homosexuality seek what they say are 'gay 
>>>> rights."
>>>> In
>>>> reality, they are demanding Super Rights. Super Rights are those
>>>> privileges
>>>> that allow one to ovverride the inalienable rights of other citizens,
>>>> such
>>>> as freedom of speech and association. These Super Rights-which are
>>>> conferred
>>>> by 'non-discrimination,' 'hate crime,' and 'hate speech' laws-allow
>>>> homosexuals, if they so choose, to endanger or punish those who would
>>>> exercise their associational rights to avoid them or protect their
>>>> children
>>>> from them.
>>>>
>>>>   As an example, empirical studies to date indicate that a male teacher
>>>> who
>>>> practices homosexuality is the most likely kind of teacher to sexually
>>>> molest students. A principal knowing this may not want to hire a 
>>>> teacher
>>>> who
>>>> declares his homosexual interests. But if that teacher wants the job, 
>>>> his
>>>> Super Rights trump the associational rights of the principal as well as
>>>> the
>>>> right of students not to experience extra risk (especially since safety
>>>> is
>>>> part of their right to life). Parents renting out one side of their
>>>> duplex
>>>> may not want to place their children at risk by renting to a gay 
>>>> couple.
>>>> But
>>>> if-even on a whim - the homosexuals want the duplex, their Super Rights
>>>> trump the property and associational rights of the parents as well as
>>>> their
>>>> children's right not to be exposed to potential molestation.
>>>>
>>>>   The Super Rights of homosexual practitioners also squelch the right 
>>>> of
>>>> others to freedom of speech. If a broadcaster opines that homosexual 
>>>> sex
>>>> is
>>>> dangerous, but a homosexual finds such speech 'offensive,' his Super
>>>> Rights
>>>> trump the broadcaster's freedom of speech and the broadcaster may be
>>>> fined
>>>> or imprisoned."
>>>>
>>>> The concept of hate crimes seems particularly reprehensible. If one of
>>>> your
>>>> (heterosexual) loved ones is the object of a despicable crime, the
>>>> perpetrator would receive a lesser punishment than someone who 
>>>> committed
>>>> the
>>>> same act against someone who practices homosexual sex!
>>>>
>>>> +-+-+-
>>>>
>>>>    He has made clear to you, O man, what is good; and what is desired
>>>> from
>>>> you by the Lord; only doing what is
>>>>  right, and loving mercy, and walking without pride before your God.
>>>> Micah
>>>> 6:8
>>>> ~~~
>>>>
>>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>>> www.theqonline.net
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1778 - Release Date: 11/9/2008
>> 2:14 PM
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>
> _______________________________________________
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> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
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>
Corey Cook 




From ccook01 at knology.net  Mon Nov 10 04:14:31 2008
From: ccook01 at knology.net (Corey Cook)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 23:14:31 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
In-Reply-To: <356348.90200.qm@web51909.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <356348.90200.qm@web51909.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <EE3239DA1B0B45429D346C4B2695E7F9@TheCooksPC>

Speaking of the concept that homosexuality is unnatural,
and the lowest of immorality, and it brought Rome down years ago.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Frank Lordi" <timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 9:03 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations


> you are speakin gof the concept of 'blood guilt'?
>
> This so often brought grief to Isreal, no?
>
>
>
> --- On Sun, 11/9/08, Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net> wrote:
>
>> From: Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net>
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>> To: "Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion" 
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 8:44 PM
>> Homosexuality is sin.
>> Read Romans 1
>> read first Corinthians 6
>> Yes we need to love them just as we love all sinners, but
>> it is time to call it what it is, and that is sin!
>> It is a sin that will be the end of this country if we
>> allow it to be accepted and embraced.
>> Not a popular thought, but a true one.
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Wheeler"
>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and
>> religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 6:29 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>
>>
>> > Never mind.  I keep telling you it is called a sin in
>> the bible...if you don't want to believe that God calls
>> it a sin, I can't say anything to sway you.
>> >
>> >
>> > +-+-+-
>> >
>> >   There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none
>> beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
>> > 1 Samuel 2:2
>> > ~~~
>> >
>> > Alan D Wheeler
>> > awheeler at neb.rr.com
>> > IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>> > Skype: redwheel1
>> > Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM
>> eastern time at www.theqonline.net
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beth"
>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> > To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and
>> religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> > Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 2:41 PM
>> > Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>> >
>> >
>> >> We're talking about a country where not
>> everybody believes in God.  We
>> >> Christians are shoving God down the throats of
>> those who don't know
>> >> him.  We need to pray for the homosexuals and
>> those who are
>> >> experiencing a so-called sin ad we need to be
>> nicer to these people
>> >> for God's own sake.
>> >> Beth
>> >>
>> >> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler
>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>> >>> At the same time, homosexuality is called a
>> sin and abomination by God. So
>> >>> you think we should allow people to continue
>> to sin against God?
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> +-+-+-
>> >>>
>> >>>    We know that all things work together for
>> good for those who love God, to
>> >>> those
>> >>> who are called according to his purpose.
>> >>>  Romans 8:28
>> >>> ~~~
>> >>>
>> >>> Alan D Wheeler
>> >>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>> >>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>> >>> Skype: redwheel1
>> >>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1
>> PM eastern time at
>> >>> www.theqonline.net
>> >>>
>> >>> ----- Original Message -----
>> >>> From: "Beth"
>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> >>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of
>> faith and religion"
>> >>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> >>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:44 AM
>> >>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>> I would have toagree with Julie.  Marriage
>> is about love, not
>> >>>> procreative reasons only.  I've known
>> friends who've gotten married as
>> >>>> nonprocreative peoples.  Also, has anybody
>> thought that marriage
>> >>>> should at least be for those that can
>> participate in it as well?
>> >>>> Also, if we have bans on same-sex
>> marriage, think of it this way: we
>> >>>> are forcing religion on the people, which
>> God really doesn't want us
>> >>>> to do.  To be Christ-like is not to shove
>> God down the throats of
>> >>>> those who don't know him, but to
>> spread God's love to them, to let
>> >>>> them be free people.
>> >>>> Beth
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler
>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>> >>>>> Beth,
>> >>>>> I gently disagree with you.  Marriage
>> was designed by God to be between a
>> >>>>> man and a woman.  Don't take issue
>> because I said it.  Study the Bible
>> >>>>> and
>> >>>>> if you still don't like it, then
>> you have to take it up with God.  It was
>> >>>>> His idea to begin with, not man's.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> +-+-+-
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>    The LORD is my strength and song,
>> and he is become my salvation: he is
>> >>>>> my
>> >>>>> God, and I will prepare him an
>> >>>>>  habitation; my father's God, and
>> I will exalt him.
>> >>>>>  Exodus 15:2
>> >>>>> ~~~
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Alan D Wheeler
>> >>>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>> >>>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>> >>>>> Skype: redwheel1
>> >>>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10
>> AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>> >>>>> www.theqonline.net
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>> >>>>> From: "Beth"
>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> >>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the
>> discussion of faith and religion"
>> >>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 7:29
>> AM
>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False
>> Accusations
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> I don't care if Obama's
>> half-black.  God's people will come to
>> >>>>>> understand a few things:
>> >>>>>> 1. Marriage, for example, is not
>> between "one man and one woman".  It
>> >>>>>> is between two able parties, same
>> o different sex, that are actually
>> >>>>>> willing to stay together.  Our
>> high divorce rate of heterosexual
>> >>>>>> couples mostly is bad for our
>> children herein America.
>> >>>>>> 2. Abortion should never happen.
>> If it's something that has to do
>> >>>>>> with the mother's life and
>> health, then that's the only exception.
>> >>>>>> But rape and birth control reasons
>> are not good ones.
>> >>>>>> 3. Blind people can and wwill have
>> equal rights to vote, gain security
>> >>>>>> benefits, and so on.  Yes,
>> Obama's the most liberal, but we need him.
>> >>>>>> Maybe he's a lot more
>> Christian than Bush was.  But God's people must
>> >>>>>> not be against him.  I'm a
>> Catholic, and I'm also a liberal as well.
>> >>>>>> Obama has also beat Kennedy by so
>> many years.  ANything having to do
>> >>>>>> with race is out as far as I'm
>> concerned.  Next, what will happen when
>> >>>>>> a woman is in the White House?
>> What about a blind woman? lol
>> >>>>>> Beth
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> On 11/8/08, Linda Mentink
>> <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
>> >>>>>>> Hi Julie,
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> I'm sorry, too.  I'm
>> not against our president elect because he's
>> >>>>>>> black.  Fact is, he's half
>> black.  That's neither here nor
>> >>>>>>> there.  It's mainly
>> because he's the most liberal of all in Congress,
>> >>>>>>> and I believe that a lot of
>> our rights will be taken away once he is
>> >>>>>>> sworn in.  We'll see what
>> happens, but I'm praying for him, and all
>> >>>>>>> the rest in authority over us.
>>  I sent those things to you because I
>> >>>>>>> knew you wouldn't find out
>> from the mainstream media.  But the
>> >>>>>>> election has made history, and
>> God's people need to be more vigilent
>> >>>>>>> than
>> >>>>>>> ever.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Blessings,
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Linda
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> At 03:33 PM 11/8/2008, you
>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>> It happened by accident.
>> When you didn't stop attacking in my
>> >>>>>>>> in-box--those of you who
>> did it--people of other races by way of our
>> >>>>>>>> new President-elect, I
>> wrote what I wrote.  Now you know how false
>> >>>>>>>> accusations hurt
>> everybody.  Because of one man the African-American
>> >>>>>>>> Church, and people who
>> attend them, have been under tremendous
>> >>>>>>>> attack ever since last
>> March with no let-up.  Ever since I began
>> >>>>>>>> attending and became saved
>> in African-American churches in 1972,
>> >>>>>>>> I've heard dirty,
>> dirty comments like:  "they just do in their
>> >>>>>>>> church what they did in
>> the slave days."  In the slave days,
>> >>>>>>>> African-Americans
>> weren't permitted to know anything of the Bible
>> >>>>>>>> but "Servants obey
>> your masters in the Lord for this is right.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> If people say what people
>> have said about one another's churches
>> >>>>>>>> ever since last March,
>> referring to us as blind people, we'd be up
>> >>>>>>>> in arms.  Let us all be
>> more careful.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> It hit me like a
>> thunderbolt while I was playing piano at a senior
>> >>>>>>>> citizens building today
>> why you all were upset.  And as upset as you
>> >>>>>>>> were last Thursday night,
>> Linda, I was that upset one month ago when
>> >>>>>>>> I read what you
>> particularly sent me privately at 5:00 on a Sunday
>> >>>>>>>> morning while  I was
>> getting ready for church.  I'm sorry and maybe
>> >>>>>>>> we can understand one
>> another better now.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>  has been
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> "Loyalty to petrified
>> opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a
>> >>>>>>>> human soul," American
>> Humorist Mark Twain
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> "An attack on one of
>> us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth
>> >>>>>>>> Jernigan, Immediate Past
>> President, National Federation of the Blind
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> "A brother offended
>> is harder to be won than a strong city: and
>> >>>>>>>> their contentions are like
>> the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> "Faith is the ability
>> to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> "No one can do it for
>> us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push,
>> >>>>>>>> 1976.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> "With proper
>> training, development, and opportunity, blindness can
>> >>>>>>>> be reduced to the level of
>> a physical nuisance or characteristic,"
>> >>>>>>>> the Late Dr. Kenneth
>> Jernigan, Past President, National Federation
>> >>>>>>>> of the Blind.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Julie Vogt or
>> jcvogt at pressenter.com
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> >>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >>>>>>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change
>> your list options or get your account info
>> >>>>>>>> for Faith-talk:
>> >>>>>>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> >>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >>>>>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your
>> list options or get your account info for
>> >>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>> >>>>>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> >>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >>>>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list
>> options or get your account info for
>> >>>>>> Faith-talk:
>> >>>>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> No virus found in this incoming
>> message.
>> >>>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>> >>>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database:
>> 270.9.0/1776 - Release Date: 11/8/2008
>> >>>>> 6:49 PM
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> >>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >>>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list
>> options or get your account info for
>> >>>>> Faith-talk:
>> >>>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> >>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options
>> or get your account info for
>> >>>> Faith-talk:
>> >>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> >>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>> >>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database:
>> 270.9.0/1778 - Release Date: 11/9/2008
>> >>> 2:14 PM
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> >>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or
>> get your account info for
>> >>> Faith-talk:
>> >>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Faith-talk mailing list
>> >> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get
>> your account info for Faith-talk:
>> >>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > No virus found in this incoming message.
>> > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>> > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1778 -
>> Release Date: 11/9/2008 2:14 PM
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Faith-talk mailing list
>> > Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>> account info for Faith-talk:
>> >
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>> >
>> Corey Cook
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>> account info for Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/timber_wolf899%40yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>
Corey Cook 




From ccook01 at knology.net  Mon Nov 10 04:18:28 2008
From: ccook01 at knology.net (Corey Cook)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 23:18:28 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
In-Reply-To: <BF6C2124D14B4948B54CF0B42B2893C7@lynnwhitePC>
References: <E9B0A7C28DD444F7ADC7CB300F67830F@your4dacd0ea75><20081109035831.9E797AC853@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net><4383d01d0811090529o40db51do77b90bee606dc92b@mail.gmail.com><34EE51212347460BBC336CEB5D414D5A@Alan><4383d01d0811090844o4496c680xf7c1eb301ac76b6f@mail.gmail.com><F8F4968EFA6F4D5DA9552449802050AF@Alan><4383d01d0811091241x6bcba8fyf245b5a9bae3889c@mail.gmail.com>
	<BF6C2124D14B4948B54CF0B42B2893C7@lynnwhitePC>
Message-ID: <3FCCE47A95764C049773FADD0B9BEB75@TheCooksPC>

The truth is the gay rights folks are trying to cram this life style down 
our throats.
They are now even demanding to spread there message on Christian college 
campuses.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "BMW" <lynnwhite51 at sbcglobal.net>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:27 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations


> Actually, it's the other way around.  We have never tried to force 
> Christianity down anybody.
>
> But, as our society has become less and less godly, the sinner has 
> succeeded in duping society into believing that we are discriminating 
> because we continue to remind people of what God says in his word.
>
> Why don't we have laws that say that murderers are welcomed as full 
> citizens?  Lets celebrate Thieves Day at our amusement parks.
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 2:41 PM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>
>
>> We're talking about a country where not everybody believes in God.  We
>> Christians are shoving God down the throats of those who don't know
>> him.  We need to pray for the homosexuals and those who are
>> experiencing a so-called sin ad we need to be nicer to these people
>> for God's own sake.
>> Beth
>>
>> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>> At the same time, homosexuality is called a sin and abomination by God. 
>>> So
>>> you think we should allow people to continue to sin against God?
>>>
>>>
>>> +-+-+-
>>>
>>>    We know that all things work together for good for those who love 
>>> God, to
>>> those
>>> who are called according to his purpose.
>>>  Romans 8:28
>>> ~~~
>>>
>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>> www.theqonline.net
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:44 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>
>>>
>>>>I would have toagree with Julie.  Marriage is about love, not
>>>> procreative reasons only.  I've known friends who've gotten married as
>>>> nonprocreative peoples.  Also, has anybody thought that marriage
>>>> should at least be for those that can participate in it as well?
>>>> Also, if we have bans on same-sex marriage, think of it this way: we
>>>> are forcing religion on the people, which God really doesn't want us
>>>> to do.  To be Christ-like is not to shove God down the throats of
>>>> those who don't know him, but to spread God's love to them, to let
>>>> them be free people.
>>>> Beth
>>>>
>>>> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>> Beth,
>>>>> I gently disagree with you.  Marriage was designed by God to be 
>>>>> between a
>>>>> man and a woman.  Don't take issue because I said it.  Study the Bible
>>>>> and
>>>>> if you still don't like it, then you have to take it up with God.  It 
>>>>> was
>>>>> His idea to begin with, not man's.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> +-+-+-
>>>>>
>>>>>    The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he 
>>>>> is
>>>>> my
>>>>> God, and I will prepare him an
>>>>>  habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.
>>>>>  Exodus 15:2
>>>>> ~~~
>>>>>
>>>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>>>> www.theqonline.net
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 7:29 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>I don't care if Obama's half-black.  God's people will come to
>>>>>> understand a few things:
>>>>>> 1. Marriage, for example, is not between "one man and one woman".  It
>>>>>> is between two able parties, same o different sex, that are actually
>>>>>> willing to stay together.  Our high divorce rate of heterosexual
>>>>>> couples mostly is bad for our children herein America.
>>>>>> 2. Abortion should never happen.  If it's something that has to do
>>>>>> with the mother's life and health, then that's the only exception.
>>>>>> But rape and birth control reasons are not good ones.
>>>>>> 3. Blind people can and wwill have equal rights to vote, gain 
>>>>>> security
>>>>>> benefits, and so on.  Yes, Obama's the most liberal, but we need him.
>>>>>> Maybe he's a lot more Christian than Bush was.  But God's people must
>>>>>> not be against him.  I'm a Catholic, and I'm also a liberal as well.
>>>>>> Obama has also beat Kennedy by so many years.  ANything having to do
>>>>>> with race is out as far as I'm concerned.  Next, what will happen 
>>>>>> when
>>>>>> a woman is in the White House?  What about a blind woman? lol
>>>>>> Beth
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/8/08, Linda Mentink <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi Julie,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm sorry, too.  I'm not against our president elect because he's
>>>>>>> black.  Fact is, he's half black.  That's neither here nor
>>>>>>> there.  It's mainly because he's the most liberal of all in 
>>>>>>> Congress,
>>>>>>> and I believe that a lot of our rights will be taken away once he is
>>>>>>> sworn in.  We'll see what happens, but I'm praying for him, and all
>>>>>>> the rest in authority over us.  I sent those things to you because I
>>>>>>> knew you wouldn't find out from the mainstream media.  But the
>>>>>>> election has made history, and God's people need to be more vigilent
>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>> ever.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Blessings,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Linda
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> At 03:33 PM 11/8/2008, you wrote:
>>>>>>>>It happened by accident.  When you didn't stop attacking in my
>>>>>>>>in-box--those of you who did it--people of other races by way of our
>>>>>>>>new President-elect, I wrote what I wrote.  Now you know how false
>>>>>>>>accusations hurt everybody.  Because of one man the African-American
>>>>>>>>Church, and people who attend them, have been under tremendous
>>>>>>>>attack ever since last March with no let-up.  Ever since I began
>>>>>>>>attending and became saved in African-American churches in 1972,
>>>>>>>>I've heard dirty, dirty comments like:  "they just do in their
>>>>>>>>church what they did in the slave days."  In the slave days,
>>>>>>>>African-Americans weren't permitted to know anything of the Bible
>>>>>>>>but "Servants obey your masters in the Lord for this is right.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>If people say what people have said about one another's churches
>>>>>>>>ever since last March, referring to us as blind people, we'd be up
>>>>>>>>in arms.  Let us all be more careful.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>It hit me like a thunderbolt while I was playing piano at a senior
>>>>>>>>citizens building today why you all were upset.  And as upset as you
>>>>>>>>were last Thursday night, Linda, I was that upset one month ago when
>>>>>>>>I read what you particularly sent me privately at 5:00 on a Sunday
>>>>>>>>morning while  I was getting ready for church.  I'm sorry and maybe
>>>>>>>>we can understand one another better now.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  has been
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a
>>>>>>>>human soul," American Humorist Mark Twain
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth
>>>>>>>>Jernigan, Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and
>>>>>>>>their contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. 
>>>>>>>>KJV
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation 
>>>>>>>>Push,
>>>>>>>> 1976.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can
>>>>>>>>be reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic,"
>>>>>>>>the Late Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation
>>>>>>>>of the Blind.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>for Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1776 - Release Date: 
>>>>> 11/8/2008
>>>>> 6:49 PM
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1778 - Release Date: 
>>> 11/9/2008
>>> 2:14 PM
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/lynnwhite51%40sbcglobal.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>
Corey Cook 




From rjs059 at peoplepc.com  Mon Nov 10 04:23:59 2008
From: rjs059 at peoplepc.com (rjs059 at peoplepc.com)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 23:23:59 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Emailing: Last Days Ministries I'm Gay, O.K.
References: <35A03D458698454A84A02B53EB5728FC@Buster><0AE2D4A5152D4796862C6EFB2E88D3AE@nickf1758c2c9d>
	<4383d01d0811091933w2fff5563r4b7dc4d58c5eb47c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005d01c942ec$28333750$5c85fe04@rjige047kjawst>

Beth, Marriage, Was a religious practice, long before the government even 
became involved. And furthermore, It is conceder to be a sacrament in the 
Catholic church.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:33 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Emailing: Last Days Ministries I'm Gay, O.K.


> Come on!  I've said it enough.  Marriage isn't going to just be
> "between ONE MAN and ONE WOMAN" enough these days.  Before you know
> it, Christians will interpret the Bible as being of the able-bodied to
> be perfect and capable of multiplyin and so on.  This is horrible!
> Bet
>
> On 11/9/08, trising at sbcglobal.net <trising at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> That is an absolutely excellent article! All of us sin and fall short of 
>> the
>> glory of God, whether we are gay or a gossip. Jesus loves all of us and 
>> came
>> here to die in our place for our sins so we can go to heaven and be with
>> him. We will not go there if we do not trust in Him alone as the provider 
>> of
>> our salvation. People who commit any sin, and that means all of us, 
>> deserve
>> to be loved, but not to have our sin excused or minimized. It is God's
>> design for marriage to be between one man and one woman. we as Christians
>> can stand up for what is right, while loving those caught in homosexual 
>> sin.
>> Giving them special rights is wrong, but so is refusing to talk to them, 
>> or
>> regarding them as someone God cannot save.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/rjs059%40peoplepc.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1776 - Release Date: 11/8/2008 
6:49 PM




From ccook01 at knology.net  Mon Nov 10 04:25:12 2008
From: ccook01 at knology.net (Corey Cook)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 23:25:12 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
In-Reply-To: <4383d01d0811091241x6bcba8fyf245b5a9bae3889c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <E9B0A7C28DD444F7ADC7CB300F67830F@your4dacd0ea75><20081109035831.9E797AC853@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net><4383d01d0811090529o40db51do77b90bee606dc92b@mail.gmail.com><34EE51212347460BBC336CEB5D414D5A@Alan><4383d01d0811090844o4496c680xf7c1eb301ac76b6f@mail.gmail.com><F8F4968EFA6F4D5DA9552449802050AF@Alan>
	<4383d01d0811091241x6bcba8fyf245b5a9bae3889c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7B9BB56381CA446DBB668A43E39C078B@TheCooksPC>

Agreed, we should be nice to gays.
We should also be nice to liars.
We should also be nice to drunks.
But we should tell them the truth about there sin.
And love them and support them out of a sinful life style.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 3:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations


> We're talking about a country where not everybody believes in God.  We
> Christians are shoving God down the throats of those who don't know
> him.  We need to pray for the homosexuals and those who are
> experiencing a so-called sin ad we need to be nicer to these people
> for God's own sake.
> Beth
>
> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>> At the same time, homosexuality is called a sin and abomination by God. 
>> So
>> you think we should allow people to continue to sin against God?
>>
>>
>> +-+-+-
>>
>>    We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, 
>> to
>> those
>> who are called according to his purpose.
>>  Romans 8:28
>> ~~~
>>
>> Alan D Wheeler
>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>> Skype: redwheel1
>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>> www.theqonline.net
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:44 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>
>>
>>>I would have toagree with Julie.  Marriage is about love, not
>>> procreative reasons only.  I've known friends who've gotten married as
>>> nonprocreative peoples.  Also, has anybody thought that marriage
>>> should at least be for those that can participate in it as well?
>>> Also, if we have bans on same-sex marriage, think of it this way: we
>>> are forcing religion on the people, which God really doesn't want us
>>> to do.  To be Christ-like is not to shove God down the throats of
>>> those who don't know him, but to spread God's love to them, to let
>>> them be free people.
>>> Beth
>>>
>>> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>>> Beth,
>>>> I gently disagree with you.  Marriage was designed by God to be between 
>>>> a
>>>> man and a woman.  Don't take issue because I said it.  Study the Bible
>>>> and
>>>> if you still don't like it, then you have to take it up with God.  It 
>>>> was
>>>> His idea to begin with, not man's.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> +-+-+-
>>>>
>>>>    The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he 
>>>> is
>>>> my
>>>> God, and I will prepare him an
>>>>  habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.
>>>>  Exodus 15:2
>>>> ~~~
>>>>
>>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>>> www.theqonline.net
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 7:29 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I don't care if Obama's half-black.  God's people will come to
>>>>> understand a few things:
>>>>> 1. Marriage, for example, is not between "one man and one woman".  It
>>>>> is between two able parties, same o different sex, that are actually
>>>>> willing to stay together.  Our high divorce rate of heterosexual
>>>>> couples mostly is bad for our children herein America.
>>>>> 2. Abortion should never happen.  If it's something that has to do
>>>>> with the mother's life and health, then that's the only exception.
>>>>> But rape and birth control reasons are not good ones.
>>>>> 3. Blind people can and wwill have equal rights to vote, gain security
>>>>> benefits, and so on.  Yes, Obama's the most liberal, but we need him.
>>>>> Maybe he's a lot more Christian than Bush was.  But God's people must
>>>>> not be against him.  I'm a Catholic, and I'm also a liberal as well.
>>>>> Obama has also beat Kennedy by so many years.  ANything having to do
>>>>> with race is out as far as I'm concerned.  Next, what will happen when
>>>>> a woman is in the White House?  What about a blind woman? lol
>>>>> Beth
>>>>>
>>>>> On 11/8/08, Linda Mentink <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Julie,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm sorry, too.  I'm not against our president elect because he's
>>>>>> black.  Fact is, he's half black.  That's neither here nor
>>>>>> there.  It's mainly because he's the most liberal of all in Congress,
>>>>>> and I believe that a lot of our rights will be taken away once he is
>>>>>> sworn in.  We'll see what happens, but I'm praying for him, and all
>>>>>> the rest in authority over us.  I sent those things to you because I
>>>>>> knew you wouldn't find out from the mainstream media.  But the
>>>>>> election has made history, and God's people need to be more vigilent
>>>>>> than
>>>>>> ever.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Blessings,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Linda
>>>>>>
>>>>>> At 03:33 PM 11/8/2008, you wrote:
>>>>>>>It happened by accident.  When you didn't stop attacking in my
>>>>>>>in-box--those of you who did it--people of other races by way of our
>>>>>>>new President-elect, I wrote what I wrote.  Now you know how false
>>>>>>>accusations hurt everybody.  Because of one man the African-American
>>>>>>>Church, and people who attend them, have been under tremendous
>>>>>>>attack ever since last March with no let-up.  Ever since I began
>>>>>>>attending and became saved in African-American churches in 1972,
>>>>>>>I've heard dirty, dirty comments like:  "they just do in their
>>>>>>>church what they did in the slave days."  In the slave days,
>>>>>>>African-Americans weren't permitted to know anything of the Bible
>>>>>>>but "Servants obey your masters in the Lord for this is right.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>If people say what people have said about one another's churches
>>>>>>>ever since last March, referring to us as blind people, we'd be up
>>>>>>>in arms.  Let us all be more careful.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>It hit me like a thunderbolt while I was playing piano at a senior
>>>>>>>citizens building today why you all were upset.  And as upset as you
>>>>>>>were last Thursday night, Linda, I was that upset one month ago when
>>>>>>>I read what you particularly sent me privately at 5:00 on a Sunday
>>>>>>>morning while  I was getting ready for church.  I'm sorry and maybe
>>>>>>>we can understand one another better now.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  has been
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a
>>>>>>>human soul," American Humorist Mark Twain
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth
>>>>>>>Jernigan, Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and
>>>>>>>their contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push,
>>>>>>> 1976.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can
>>>>>>>be reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic,"
>>>>>>>the Late Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation
>>>>>>>of the Blind.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>for Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1776 - Release Date: 
>>>> 11/8/2008
>>>> 6:49 PM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1778 - Release Date: 11/9/2008
>> 2:14 PM
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>
Corey Cook 




From ccook01 at knology.net  Mon Nov 10 04:26:22 2008
From: ccook01 at knology.net (Corey Cook)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 23:26:22 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
In-Reply-To: <FD9FC46FAD3C4602AAA7F6EBFF36863F@your4dacd0ea75>
References: <E9B0A7C28DD444F7ADC7CB300F67830F@your4dacd0ea75><20081109035831.9E797AC853@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net><4383d01d0811090529o40db51do77b90bee606dc92b@mail.gmail.com><34EE51212347460BBC336CEB5D414D5A@Alan><4383d01d0811090844o4496c680xf7c1eb301ac76b6f@mail.gmail.com><F8F4968EFA6F4D5DA9552449802050AF@Alan>
	<FD9FC46FAD3C4602AAA7F6EBFF36863F@your4dacd0ea75>
Message-ID: <DA09238460FC4F8F81D813E28E3B3BB8@TheCooksPC>

That song shows how far we have come in what we will accept as a culture.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Julie C. Vogt" <jcvogt at pressenter.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 3:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations


> Alan, this is the bad thing:  We know what the bible says about that and 
> if they know it, all they really feel is the church's rejection of them. 
> We have to love people where they are and that means really trying to help 
> them fight their battles with homosexuality or whatever the thing is.  We 
> do that when it comes to other things.  Plus I really think it's been made 
> such a mess that the Scripture that says, "God shall separate the wheat 
> from the tariffs," is there for a reason.  Only God can fix it now.
>
> Can we legislate the love of God in those who don't have it or make people 
> go the way we know God knows they should when all they feel is rejection? 
> These are things I think about now.
>
> I think gays and lesbians should have a civil union, not marriage, because 
> pretty soon we're going to have a problem with "common law" couples and 
> all that. We can't make ourselves God in governing other people's lives.
>
> When I first got saved in the'70's, if people wore slacks in the 
> African-American churches, or even mixed congregations, people were quick 
> to quote that thou shall not wear clothes pertaining to a man.  Well, 
> there's a difference between man's pants and women's pants.  Now time has 
> passed and people are finding now that God deals with people a whole lot 
> better than people do.  I wear slacks or pant suits myself.  I don't like 
> to be moving around on a piano bench and having to pull at my dress, but 
> God still loves me and has used me, particularly in music.
>
> I don't know if you tune to top 40 stations at all, but last summer there 
> was a song out by Katy Perry:
>
> "I kissed a girl and I like it.
> Hope my boy-friend don't mind it."
>
> And then she talks of it not meaning she's in love tonight.  Because of 
> rejection, they're going to push as hard as we do.  God has to intervene 
> in this.
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Alan Wheeler" <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 12:31 PM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>
>
>> At the same time, homosexuality is called a sin and abomination by God. 
>> So you think we should allow people to continue to sin against God?
>>
>>
>> +-+-+-
>>
>>   We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, 
>> to those
>> who are called according to his purpose.
>> Romans 8:28
>> ~~~
>>
>> Alan D Wheeler
>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>> Skype: redwheel1
>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at 
>> www.theqonline.net
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:44 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>
>>
>>>I would have toagree with Julie.  Marriage is about love, not
>>> procreative reasons only.  I've known friends who've gotten married as
>>> nonprocreative peoples.  Also, has anybody thought that marriage
>>> should at least be for those that can participate in it as well?
>>> Also, if we have bans on same-sex marriage, think of it this way: we
>>> are forcing religion on the people, which God really doesn't want us
>>> to do.  To be Christ-like is not to shove God down the throats of
>>> those who don't know him, but to spread God's love to them, to let
>>> them be free people.
>>> Beth
>>>
>>> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>>> Beth,
>>>> I gently disagree with you.  Marriage was designed by God to be between 
>>>> a
>>>> man and a woman.  Don't take issue because I said it.  Study the Bible 
>>>> and
>>>> if you still don't like it, then you have to take it up with God.  It 
>>>> was
>>>> His idea to begin with, not man's.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> +-+-+-
>>>>
>>>>    The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he 
>>>> is my
>>>> God, and I will prepare him an
>>>>  habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.
>>>>  Exodus 15:2
>>>> ~~~
>>>>
>>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>>> www.theqonline.net
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 7:29 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I don't care if Obama's half-black.  God's people will come to
>>>>> understand a few things:
>>>>> 1. Marriage, for example, is not between "one man and one woman".  It
>>>>> is between two able parties, same o different sex, that are actually
>>>>> willing to stay together.  Our high divorce rate of heterosexual
>>>>> couples mostly is bad for our children herein America.
>>>>> 2. Abortion should never happen.  If it's something that has to do
>>>>> with the mother's life and health, then that's the only exception.
>>>>> But rape and birth control reasons are not good ones.
>>>>> 3. Blind people can and wwill have equal rights to vote, gain security
>>>>> benefits, and so on.  Yes, Obama's the most liberal, but we need him.
>>>>> Maybe he's a lot more Christian than Bush was.  But God's people must
>>>>> not be against him.  I'm a Catholic, and I'm also a liberal as well.
>>>>> Obama has also beat Kennedy by so many years.  ANything having to do
>>>>> with race is out as far as I'm concerned.  Next, what will happen when
>>>>> a woman is in the White House?  What about a blind woman? lol
>>>>> Beth
>>>>>
>>>>> On 11/8/08, Linda Mentink <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Julie,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm sorry, too.  I'm not against our president elect because he's
>>>>>> black.  Fact is, he's half black.  That's neither here nor
>>>>>> there.  It's mainly because he's the most liberal of all in Congress,
>>>>>> and I believe that a lot of our rights will be taken away once he is
>>>>>> sworn in.  We'll see what happens, but I'm praying for him, and all
>>>>>> the rest in authority over us.  I sent those things to you because I
>>>>>> knew you wouldn't find out from the mainstream media.  But the
>>>>>> election has made history, and God's people need to be more vigilent 
>>>>>> than
>>>>>> ever.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Blessings,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Linda
>>>>>>
>>>>>> At 03:33 PM 11/8/2008, you wrote:
>>>>>>>It happened by accident.  When you didn't stop attacking in my
>>>>>>>in-box--those of you who did it--people of other races by way of our
>>>>>>>new President-elect, I wrote what I wrote.  Now you know how false
>>>>>>>accusations hurt everybody.  Because of one man the African-American
>>>>>>>Church, and people who attend them, have been under tremendous
>>>>>>>attack ever since last March with no let-up.  Ever since I began
>>>>>>>attending and became saved in African-American churches in 1972,
>>>>>>>I've heard dirty, dirty comments like:  "they just do in their
>>>>>>>church what they did in the slave days."  In the slave days,
>>>>>>>African-Americans weren't permitted to know anything of the Bible
>>>>>>>but "Servants obey your masters in the Lord for this is right.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>If people say what people have said about one another's churches
>>>>>>>ever since last March, referring to us as blind people, we'd be up
>>>>>>>in arms.  Let us all be more careful.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>It hit me like a thunderbolt while I was playing piano at a senior
>>>>>>>citizens building today why you all were upset.  And as upset as you
>>>>>>>were last Thursday night, Linda, I was that upset one month ago when
>>>>>>>I read what you particularly sent me privately at 5:00 on a Sunday
>>>>>>>morning while  I was getting ready for church.  I'm sorry and maybe
>>>>>>>we can understand one another better now.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  has been
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a
>>>>>>>human soul," American Humorist Mark Twain
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth
>>>>>>>Jernigan, Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and
>>>>>>>their contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push,
>>>>>>> 1976.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can
>>>>>>>be reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic,"
>>>>>>>the Late Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation
>>>>>>>of the Blind.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>for Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1776 - Release Date: 
>>>> 11/8/2008
>>>> 6:49 PM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
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>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>> Faith-talk:
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>>
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>>
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>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
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>
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>
>
>
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> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
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>
Corey Cook 




From ccook01 at knology.net  Mon Nov 10 04:27:55 2008
From: ccook01 at knology.net (Corey Cook)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 23:27:55 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] More about homosexuality.
In-Reply-To: <4383d01d0811091253x2afd9cffu8fc0dcd74995a54d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <45DA65A746C4427D84681755CC35CB99@Alan>
	<4383d01d0811091253x2afd9cffu8fc0dcd74995a54d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50A5622AE9F042D6B360FCF07446D417@TheCooksPC>

If we accept gays we will fall.
Telling gays they cannot get married has nothing to do with the rest of what 
you listed.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 3:53 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] More about homosexuality.


> Allan, this article is severely biased and is hurtful to homosexual
> friends of mine.  Thank God they didn't read this.  To be honest, I
> love my friends, all my friends heterosexual and homosexual.  Every
> kid has the right to two loving parents, but not necessarily a mom and
> a dad.  Gay couples and lesbian couples are still adoptable couples.
> I've seen a lesbian couple that adopted two Cree First Nations
> children.  I saw a gay couple adopt special needs twins who had
> addiction problems.  This country needs to be more progressive and
> stop attacking homosexuals because they are homosexuals.  Before you
> know it, Allan, this country will put blind and visually impaired
> people as well as cognitively disabled people in their places: along
> with the homosexuals, below sighted and heterosexual people.  Before
> you know it, Allan, African Americans will be kicked out of office and
> there will be an assassination attempt on Barack Obama, who I hope
> will reign for eight long and healthy years.  Please watch what you're
> saying!  We're all Christians on this list!  Can't we accept others'
> beliefs and opinions here?  I'm not trying to be psychic and prophetic
> here, but please understand that I am very concerned that this nation
> is going to fall down like Rome did and we won't have a very healthy
> end if you know what I mean.  And not everybody believes in God.  And
> God loves everybody, and even though it is written that homosexuality
> is a sin, attacking homosexuals who are not atracted and refuse to be
> attracted to the opposite sex is wrong.  We cannot an will not attack
> others because they are a different brand of homo sapiens sapiens.
> Beth
>
> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>> I went to www.biblegateway.com to see what I could find about 
>> homosexuality
>> and the bible.  This was among the resources.  So, again I say, and this 
>> is
>> my last comment on the subject, if you disagree that marriage is only for
>> men and women, then your argument is with God.  It's in His book.
>>
>> http://www.faithfacts.org/christ-and-the-culture/gay-rights#marriage
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  Sanctity of Marriage
>> In recent years, the homosexual movement has centered on giving
>> marriage-like benefits to gay couples. Many in the culture have 
>> mistakenly
>> concluded that marriage is merely an institution for the convenience of
>> adults. In actuality, marriage is the bedrock institution for culture to
>> sustain itself through having and nurturing children. There are
>> complementary aspects to a man and woman that are important to the
>> instutution of marriage which go beyond the obvious physical attributes.
>> There are things that a man needs that can only be provided by a woman, 
>> and
>> vice versa.
>>
>> These complementary aspects are important to the relationship of the 
>> couple
>> itself, as well as to the children. One does not have to appeal to 
>> religion
>> to instinctively understand this. Yet statistics verify the structure of 
>> the
>> traditional family as the approach to raising children that gives the 
>> best
>> measurable results. The overwhelming body of social science research 
>> agrees
>> that children do best when raised in homes with married, opposite-sex
>> parents. Every child has the right to both a mom and a dad.
>>
>> Yet we cannot divorce the institution of marriage from its theological
>> roots. We acknowledge that marriage is an institution given by God 
>> (Genesis
>> 2:24). The Creator of the Universe established the relationship between a
>> man and a woman, thus it is a divine institution, not a human one. To 
>> confer
>> marriage-like rights to gays is not the prerogative of people (Matthew
>> 19:6). (This includes civil unions or domestic partnerships, as they are
>> merely marriage by other names.) Defining marriage is the prerogative of
>> God. Whatever may tend to undermine the institution of marriage would 
>> also
>> undermine the authority of God, as well as hurt society.
>>
>> Liberals may argue, "Why should we arbitrarily select only heterosexual
>> couples for marriage? What can it hurt if two homosexuals want to marry?"
>> The answer is surprisingly simple. The institution of marriage between 
>> and
>> man a woman is not, in fact, arbitrary. It's purpose is clear and of 
>> utmost
>> importance to society.
>>
>> David Orland in an article entitled "The Deceit of Gay Marriage" puts it
>> very well. He says:
>>
>>   To justify giving privileges or exemptions or subsidies to some 
>> particular
>> group in society, the benefit of doing so for society at large must first 
>> be
>> shown. With heterosexual marriage, the case is clear enough. Heterosexual
>> marriage is a matter of genuine social interest because the family is
>> essential to society's reproduction. The crux of my argument, in other
>> words, was that married couples receive the benefits they do, not because
>> the state is interested in promoting romantic love, or because the Bible
>> says so or because of the influence of special interest groups but rather
>> because the next generation is something that is and should be of 
>> interest
>> to all of us. And, by definition, this is not a case that can be made for
>> homosexual unions. To that degree, the attempt to turn the question of
>> domestic partnership into a debate about fairness falls flat.
>>
>>   The more persistent supporters of domestic partnership will of course
>> respond to this argument by pointing to the case in which homosexual
>> partners adopt children or, in the case of lesbians, undergo artificial
>> insemination. The intention here is to show that the nuclear family is 
>> found
>> even among homosexual couples and that, to that extent, homosexual unions 
>> do
>> indeed meet the same criterion of social interest as heterosexual ones 
>> and
>> thus should be granted legal status. It is a weak argument and one that
>> ultimately back-fires on those who employ it. This is for two reasons:
>>
>>   First, adoption by homosexual couples is still exceedingly rare and the
>> law-though many are surprised to learn this-is aimed at the general case. 
>> To
>> confer legal benefits on the entire class of would-be homosexual spouses
>> just because some very small minority of this class approximates the 
>> pattern
>> of the nuclear family would be a bit like admitting all applicants to a
>> select university on the grounds that a few of them had been shown to 
>> meet
>> the entrance requirements.
>>
>>   Second, the right of this small minority to the benefits of marriage is
>> dubious in the extreme. Homosexual "families" of whatever type are always
>> and necessarily parasitic on heterosexual ones.
>>
>> Every child has the right to a mom and a dad. See 5 Reasons Why Same-Sex
>> Marriage Harms Children.
>>
>> But homosexuals not only want fair treatment, they are pushing for "Super
>> Rights." According the Paul Cameron of the Family Research Institute:
>>
>>   "Every member of society has a duty to contribute to the commonwealth. 
>> Yet
>> the empirical evidence indicates that those who engage in homosexuality 
>> 1)
>> contribute less and cost more in goods and services, 2) 
>> disproportionately
>> disrupt social functioning, and 3) have few children while being more apt 
>> to
>> harm them. Thus, homosexual practioners not only fail to 'pay for their
>> keep,' but by their negative influence on children, cloud society's 
>> future.
>>
>>   Those who engage in homosexuality seek what they say are 'gay rights." 
>> In
>> reality, they are demanding Super Rights. Super Rights are those 
>> privileges
>> that allow one to ovverride the inalienable rights of other citizens, 
>> such
>> as freedom of speech and association. These Super Rights-which are 
>> conferred
>> by 'non-discrimination,' 'hate crime,' and 'hate speech' laws-allow
>> homosexuals, if they so choose, to endanger or punish those who would
>> exercise their associational rights to avoid them or protect their 
>> children
>> from them.
>>
>>   As an example, empirical studies to date indicate that a male teacher 
>> who
>> practices homosexuality is the most likely kind of teacher to sexually
>> molest students. A principal knowing this may not want to hire a teacher 
>> who
>> declares his homosexual interests. But if that teacher wants the job, his
>> Super Rights trump the associational rights of the principal as well as 
>> the
>> right of students not to experience extra risk (especially since safety 
>> is
>> part of their right to life). Parents renting out one side of their 
>> duplex
>> may not want to place their children at risk by renting to a gay couple. 
>> But
>> if-even on a whim - the homosexuals want the duplex, their Super Rights
>> trump the property and associational rights of the parents as well as 
>> their
>> children's right not to be exposed to potential molestation.
>>
>>   The Super Rights of homosexual practitioners also squelch the right of
>> others to freedom of speech. If a broadcaster opines that homosexual sex 
>> is
>> dangerous, but a homosexual finds such speech 'offensive,' his Super 
>> Rights
>> trump the broadcaster's freedom of speech and the broadcaster may be 
>> fined
>> or imprisoned."
>>
>> The concept of hate crimes seems particularly reprehensible. If one of 
>> your
>> (heterosexual) loved ones is the object of a despicable crime, the
>> perpetrator would receive a lesser punishment than someone who committed 
>> the
>> same act against someone who practices homosexual sex!
>>
>> +-+-+-
>>
>>    He has made clear to you, O man, what is good; and what is desired 
>> from
>> you by the Lord; only doing what is
>>  right, and loving mercy, and walking without pride before your God. 
>> Micah
>> 6:8
>> ~~~
>>
>> Alan D Wheeler
>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>> Skype: redwheel1
>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>> www.theqonline.net
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>
Corey Cook 




From rjs59 at hotmail.com  Mon Nov 10 04:28:03 2008
From: rjs59 at hotmail.com (RJ Sandefur)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 23:28:03 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] false accusations
References: <BAY133-DAV399AD1DB73AE87D9E8823901A0@phx.gbl>
	<4383d01d0811091915x625230a9n8d9f30092d639ff2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY106-DAV78B677258697A15687AD7A81A0@phx.gbl>

Where can one obtain these writings?
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] false accusations


> I'd like to see those writings myself.
> Beth
>
> On 11/9/08, Pat Gormley <kk3f at msn.com> wrote:
>> This thread brought to mind a lengthy discussion a number of us had one
>> night  by the fireplace at the National center between Dr. Maurer, myself
>> and a couple of us who have been trained in the classics and are both 
>> very
>> familiar with the Socratic method.  Marc had just read some of the later
>> roman poets such as Catulus, Plautus and Terrence.  Some of the platonic
>> writings also indicate what was going on in Greek society and the Latin
>> poets mentioned earlier Roman society respectively.  There is an amazing
>> parallel between those writings and what's going on today.  I gave him 
>> the
>> names of those authors so he could look up their writings the net since a
>> lot of those texts are freely available.  There are quite a number of 
>> these
>> writings on disk as well.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/rjs59%40hotmail.com
> 




From ccook01 at knology.net  Mon Nov 10 04:30:30 2008
From: ccook01 at knology.net (Corey Cook)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 23:30:30 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] More about homosexuality.
In-Reply-To: <45DA65A746C4427D84681755CC35CB99@Alan>
References: <45DA65A746C4427D84681755CC35CB99@Alan>
Message-ID: <F8B2126C6A1C48A987B58AE8BEEA3DBF@TheCooksPC>

This is an excellent read.
I am going to post 4 articles here in a minute that bring some more light to 
the issue.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Alan Wheeler" <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
To: <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 1:53 PM
Subject: [Faith-talk] More about homosexuality.


>I went to www.biblegateway.com to see what I could find about homosexuality 
>and the bible.  This was among the resources.  So, again I say, and this is 
>my last comment on the subject, if you disagree that marriage is only for 
>men and women, then your argument is with God.  It's in His book.
>
> http://www.faithfacts.org/christ-and-the-culture/gay-rights#marriage
>
>
>
>
> Sanctity of Marriage
> In recent years, the homosexual movement has centered on giving 
> marriage-like benefits to gay couples. Many in the culture have mistakenly 
> concluded that marriage is merely an institution for the convenience of 
> adults. In actuality, marriage is the bedrock institution for culture to 
> sustain itself through having and nurturing children. There are 
> complementary aspects to a man and woman that are important to the 
> instutution of marriage which go beyond the obvious physical attributes. 
> There are things that a man needs that can only be provided by a woman, 
> and vice versa.
>
> These complementary aspects are important to the relationship of the 
> couple itself, as well as to the children. One does not have to appeal to 
> religion to instinctively understand this. Yet statistics verify the 
> structure of the traditional family as the approach to raising children 
> that gives the best measurable results. The overwhelming body of social 
> science research agrees that children do best when raised in homes with 
> married, opposite-sex parents. Every child has the right to both a mom and 
> a dad.
>
> Yet we cannot divorce the institution of marriage from its theological 
> roots. We acknowledge that marriage is an institution given by God 
> (Genesis 2:24). The Creator of the Universe established the relationship 
> between a man and a woman, thus it is a divine institution, not a human 
> one. To confer marriage-like rights to gays is not the prerogative of 
> people (Matthew 19:6). (This includes civil unions or domestic 
> partnerships, as they are merely marriage by other names.) Defining 
> marriage is the prerogative of God. Whatever may tend to undermine the 
> institution of marriage would also undermine the authority of God, as well 
> as hurt society.
>
> Liberals may argue, "Why should we arbitrarily select only heterosexual 
> couples for marriage? What can it hurt if two homosexuals want to marry?" 
> The answer is surprisingly simple. The institution of marriage between and 
> man a woman is not, in fact, arbitrary. It's purpose is clear and of 
> utmost importance to society.
>
> David Orland in an article entitled "The Deceit of Gay Marriage" puts it 
> very well. He says:
>
>  To justify giving privileges or exemptions or subsidies to some 
> particular group in society, the benefit of doing so for society at large 
> must first be shown. With heterosexual marriage, the case is clear enough. 
> Heterosexual marriage is a matter of genuine social interest because the 
> family is essential to society's reproduction. The crux of my argument, in 
> other words, was that married couples receive the benefits they do, not 
> because the state is interested in promoting romantic love, or because the 
> Bible says so or because of the influence of special interest groups but 
> rather because the next generation is something that is and should be of 
> interest to all of us. And, by definition, this is not a case that can be 
> made for homosexual unions. To that degree, the attempt to turn the 
> question of domestic partnership into a debate about fairness falls flat.
>
>  The more persistent supporters of domestic partnership will of course 
> respond to this argument by pointing to the case in which homosexual 
> partners adopt children or, in the case of lesbians, undergo artificial 
> insemination. The intention here is to show that the nuclear family is 
> found even among homosexual couples and that, to that extent, homosexual 
> unions do indeed meet the same criterion of social interest as 
> heterosexual ones and thus should be granted legal status. It is a weak 
> argument and one that ultimately back-fires on those who employ it. This 
> is for two reasons:
>
>  First, adoption by homosexual couples is still exceedingly rare and the 
> law-though many are surprised to learn this-is aimed at the general case. 
> To confer legal benefits on the entire class of would-be homosexual 
> spouses just because some very small minority of this class approximates 
> the pattern of the nuclear family would be a bit like admitting all 
> applicants to a select university on the grounds that a few of them had 
> been shown to meet the entrance requirements.
>
>  Second, the right of this small minority to the benefits of marriage is 
> dubious in the extreme. Homosexual "families" of whatever type are always 
> and necessarily parasitic on heterosexual ones.
>
> Every child has the right to a mom and a dad. See 5 Reasons Why Same-Sex 
> Marriage Harms Children.
>
> But homosexuals not only want fair treatment, they are pushing for "Super 
> Rights." According the Paul Cameron of the Family Research Institute:
>
>  "Every member of society has a duty to contribute to the commonwealth. 
> Yet the empirical evidence indicates that those who engage in 
> homosexuality 1) contribute less and cost more in goods and services, 2) 
> disproportionately disrupt social functioning, and 3) have few children 
> while being more apt to harm them. Thus, homosexual practioners not only 
> fail to 'pay for their keep,' but by their negative influence on children, 
> cloud society's future.
>
>  Those who engage in homosexuality seek what they say are 'gay rights." In 
> reality, they are demanding Super Rights. Super Rights are those 
> privileges that allow one to ovverride the inalienable rights of other 
> citizens, such as freedom of speech and association. These Super 
> Rights-which are conferred by 'non-discrimination,' 'hate crime,' and 
> 'hate speech' laws-allow homosexuals, if they so choose, to endanger or 
> punish those who would exercise their associational rights to avoid them 
> or protect their children from them.
>
>  As an example, empirical studies to date indicate that a male teacher who 
> practices homosexuality is the most likely kind of teacher to sexually 
> molest students. A principal knowing this may not want to hire a teacher 
> who declares his homosexual interests. But if that teacher wants the job, 
> his Super Rights trump the associational rights of the principal as well 
> as the right of students not to experience extra risk (especially since 
> safety is part of their right to life). Parents renting out one side of 
> their duplex may not want to place their children at risk by renting to a 
> gay couple. But if-even on a whim - the homosexuals want the duplex, their 
> Super Rights trump the property and associational rights of the parents as 
> well as their children's right not to be exposed to potential molestation.
>
>  The Super Rights of homosexual practitioners also squelch the right of 
> others to freedom of speech. If a broadcaster opines that homosexual sex 
> is dangerous, but a homosexual finds such speech 'offensive,' his Super 
> Rights trump the broadcaster's freedom of speech and the broadcaster may 
> be fined or imprisoned."
>
> The concept of hate crimes seems particularly reprehensible. If one of 
> your (heterosexual) loved ones is the object of a despicable crime, the 
> perpetrator would receive a lesser punishment than someone who committed 
> the same act against someone who practices homosexual sex!
>
> +-+-+-
>
>   He has made clear to you, O man, what is good; and what is desired from 
> you by the Lord; only doing what is
> right, and loving mercy, and walking without pride before your God. Micah 
> 6:8
> ~~~
>
> Alan D Wheeler
> awheeler at neb.rr.com
> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
> Skype: redwheel1
> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at 
> www.theqonline.net
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>
Corey Cook 




From ccook01 at knology.net  Mon Nov 10 04:33:11 2008
From: ccook01 at knology.net (Corey Cook)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 23:33:11 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] article 1
Message-ID: <5F3A84795F784BB39F938F35FB1FD13B@TheCooksPC>

 Here is the first of 4 articles I am going to post about gay marriage.

What's Really at Stake in the Gay Marriage Debate? 
Albert Mohler
President, Southern Baptist Theological Seminary 

October 17, 2008

Human society is a complex reality, but certain constants have framed that reality for human beings.  One of those constants has been the institution of marriage.  The respected status of the heterosexual pairing, set apart for exclusive rights and respected for its functions for the society, is among the most important of those constants.  Even where deviations from this pattern occur, they are of interest merely for the fact that they are deviations from this norm. 

The legalization and normalization of same-sex marriage undermine that constant.  What had been a clear picture now becomes confusing.  Marriage had been universally understood to be heterosexual.  Now, it is something else.  The picture is further confused by alienating the heterosexual breeding and parenting function from marriage.  Not only does marriage appear now to be what it never was before, the essential functions of marriage are up for grabs.

The pictures in the mind change.  The pictures in books for children change.  Mommy and Daddy give way to Mommy and Mommy, Daddy and Daddy, or any number of variations on the relationship theme.  Marriage is dethroned as a cultural constant and even as a predictable reality. The institution of marriage is destabilized and transformed before our eyes -- and especially in the eyes of the young.

Keep that in mind when you consider a recent public school field trip for first-graders in San Francisco.  Here is the shape of the future -- if same-sex marriage is sustained.  As the San Francisco Chronicle reports: 



A group of San Francisco first-graders took an unusual field trip to City Hall on Friday to toss rose petals on their just-married lesbian teacher - putting the public school children at the center of a fierce election battle over the fate of same-sex marriage.

The 18 Creative Arts Charter School students took a Muni bus and walked a block at noon to toss rose petals and blow bubbles on their just-married teacher Erin Carder and her wife Kerri McCoy, giggling and squealing as they mobbed their teacher with hugs. Mayor Gavin Newsom, a friend of a friend, officiated. 



So a class of six-year-olds was taken on a field trip to join in celebrating a same-sex marriage ceremony.  Liz Jaroflow, interim director of the school, defended the field trip as an educational experience.  As she explained, "It really is what we call a teachable moment."  She went on to explain that the educational value had to do with the legitimization of same sex marriage as a civil rights issue.  "I think I am well within the parameters," she insisted.

'As far as I'm concerned, it's not controversial for me," she stated.  "It's certainly an issue I would be willing to put my job on the line for."  Well, in San Francisco her job is probably safe.  But this "teachable moment" will not be restricted to San Francisco.  Not by a long shot.

It turns out that parents had the right to use an "opt out" provision to keep their children at the school, and not at the ceremony at City Hall.  According to the paper, two families did just that.  Two.  Eighteen students participated in the field trip.  This, you must understand, is the new normal.

California voters have the opportunity to defend and restore marriage in their state by approving "Proposition 8" on November 4.  That proposition would define marriage as the union of a man and a woman -- period.  At least one of the children at the downtown ceremony wore a "No on 8" button to the event.  The charter school used children as campaign fodder.

California is among the states with the most extensive sex education programs.  Often known as "comprehensive sex education," these programs go far beyond matters of reproduction.  The students are taught about marriage.  If "marriage" includes legalized same-sex marriage, then that is the definition presented to students.

The battle over Proposition 8 is a struggle over some of the most fundamental principles of life, society, and meaning.  In the eyes of same-sex marriage advocates the battle is for equality, dignity, and respect for homosexual relationships.  In the eyes of same-sex marriage opponents, the battle is for the preservation of an institution essential for human happiness and thriving.

Both sides in this debate understand that issues right at the core of human dignity are at stake.  Each side understands that the decision on this question will shape the future of our civilization.  And, make no mistake, both sides know that the children are watching.  Just ask the first-graders from the Creative Arts Charter School.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


In addition to being one of Salem's nationally syndicated radio talk show hosts, R. Albert Mohler, Jr. is the president of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky and recognized as one of America's leading theologians and cultural commentators. Contact Dr. Mohler at mail at albertmohler.com. 

Find this article at: http://www.crosswalk.com/news/commentary/11583067/

Corey Cook

From ccook01 at knology.net  Mon Nov 10 04:35:02 2008
From: ccook01 at knology.net (Corey Cook)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 23:35:02 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] article 2
Message-ID: <6FC4D51897564B62B1781410DF39FCB3@TheCooksPC>

What's Really at Stake in the Gay Marriage Debate? Part 2
Albert Mohler
President, Southern Baptist Theological Seminary 

October 20, 2008

Editor's Note: This article is the second in a series. Click here to read part one.

Same-sex marriage is, for now, legal in three of fifty states in the United States.  Beyond our borders, it is legal in the Netherlands, Spain, Belgium, South Africa, Canada and Norway.  This represents a very small percentage of the world's population.  Same-sex marriage is, by any measure, the exception rather than the rule.  Even when legalized civil unions and domestic partnerships are thrown into the mix, the countries that consider same-sex unions and heterosexual marriages to be equal before the law represent a small percentage of the world's nations. 

Keep that in mind when you observe the media's coverage of the issue.  By and large, the mainstream media have presented opposition to same-sex marriage as the odd and out-of-step position and support for same-sex marriage as the mainstream assumption.

The San Francisco Chronicle now reports that conservative Christians represent the major energy behind the promotion of Proposition 8 in California.  The major media generally frame these Christians as out of step with the times.   As the paper reports:

Christian conservatives have come to dominate the religious debate surrounding Prop. 8 - even though the Bible's statements on homosexuality are complex and disputed among Christians. 

Catholics, Mormons and evangelicals have been contributing millions of dollars and flying into the state from around the nation to lead rallies and services that preach support for the measure.

The paper describes the Bible's statements on homosexuality as "complex and disputed."  Of course, this is only true in very recent years and within a very thin slice of liberal Christianity.  Most Christians throughout the history of the church -- and the vast majority of Christians alive today -- have no problem understanding what the Bible teaches about homosexuality.

Take a very close look at these paragraphs:

Liberal groups representing Christians, Jews and others are trying to defeat the measure. But their efforts have been far more modest, even though priests and rabbis in the Bay Area have played a pivotal role in creating and cultivating a theology that includes lesbians and gays as equals to heterosexuals. 

Conservatives and liberals generally use dramatically different lenses to interpret the Bible. Christian conservatives tend to emphasize an interpretation of the Bible that doesn't change with the times. They say the Bible describes marriage as only between a man and a woman.

"You've got the California Supreme Court rewriting sacred heritage," said Steve Madsen, pastor of Cornerstone Fellowship, an evangelical megachurch in Livermore. 

Liberal Christians tend to emphasize that divine revelation can come from many places, even outside the church. For example, many denominations don't allow same-sex marriages, while California law does. 

"Culture is going to manifest Christ in a way that summons the church to new realities," said Episcopal Bishop Marc Andrus.

These statements are incredibly revealing.  First, note that the paper describes efforts to normalize homosexuality have included "creating and cultivating a theology" that would serve their purposes.  That is a very helpful (and accurate) explanation.  There is no way that the received tradition can be twisted into support for same-sex marriage.

Second, observe the fact that the paper recognizes that those on opposing sides of this debate "use dramatically different lenses to interpret the Bible."  That is an understatement, but represents another helpful explanation.  The arguments put forth by proponents of same-sex marriage come down to assertions that the Bible does not say what it plainly does say, that Christians have misunderstood the critical passages until liberal scholars pushing this agenda have just discovered what the passages really mean, or that the Bible just has to be corrected in light of contemporary developments.

Third, note that the reporter explains that conservatives "say the Bible describes marriage as only between a man and a woman."  Any honest reader must acknowledge that the Bible describes marriage in exclusively heterosexual terms.

Fourth, on the other hand, note that liberals pushing for the normalization of homosexual behaviors and relationships are described as believing that "divine revelation can come from many places, even outside the church."  Episcopal Bishop Marc Andrus is quoted as saying, "Culture is going to manifest Christ in a way that summons the church to new realities."  In other words, who needs the Bible when you can just accept some new cultural authority in its place?

Proponents of same-sex marriage now attempt to argue that the only opposition to legalized homosexual marriage comes from conservative Christians pushing a narrow theological agenda.  They cannot possibly claim that conservative Christians control the vast majority of the world's nations in which same-sex marriage is decidedly not legal.

Still, the fact that the San Francisco Chronicle felt the need to publish a chart of Bible passages on homosexuality tells us something.  The very existence of these passages still troubles the consciences of those pushing the normalization of homosexuality -- whether within or without the church.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In addition to being one of Salem's nationally syndicated radio talk show hosts, R. Albert Mohler, Jr. is the president of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky and recognized as one of America's leading theologians and cultural commentators. Contact Dr. Mohler at mail at albertmohler.com.  

Find this article at: http://www.crosswalk.com/news/commentary/11583138/

Corey Cook

From ccook01 at knology.net  Mon Nov 10 04:37:20 2008
From: ccook01 at knology.net (Corey Cook)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 23:37:20 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] article3
Message-ID: <FA1BA1E983C54480AE9F643BB19848D6@TheCooksPC>

What's Really at Stake in the Gay Marriage Debate? Part 3
Albert Mohler
President, Southern Bapist Theological Seminary 

October 24, 2008

"We're talking about really refraining from using things like, husband-wife, boyfriend-girlfriend, those kind of things, and just say 'partner,'" explains Robin Sinks.  She is the health education specialist for the Long Beach Unified School District in California.  The point she was making is clear enough.  The legalization of same-sex marriage will require a comprehensive change in our language. 

Language is, as we now know, integral to a culture.  In fact, anthropologists such as the influential Clifford Geertz refer to human culture as a "cultural-lingustic system."  The language and the culture are inseparable.  Each influences the other, and together they produce an entire system of meaning.

Until now, at least, words like "husband" and "wife" have been essential to understanding our culture.  Some words have been inseparable, forming comprehensive sets of meaning together.  "Marriage" goes with "husband" and "wife."  "Boyfriend" goes with "girlfriend."

With the legalization of same-sex marriage, the only acceptable word is "partner."  Marriage licenses will speak of the union of "Partner A" with "Partner B."  There will be no use for terms such as "wife" or "husband."

Robin Sinks made her statement with reference to what the normalization of same-sex marriage would mean for the public schools.  As MSNBC reports, the battle over same-sex marriage will reach the schools.

"The opposing sides have debated what, if anything, schools must teach about marriage now that gays have the right to wed," the network explains.

California mandates that schools teach about marriage, if the schools teach sex education.  Surprisingly perhaps, the vast majority of California school districts do not teach sex education.  Nevertheless, one state judge recently ruled that the districts "may require" such courses.

California is "ground zero" on this issue because the state's voters will face "Proposition 8" on the November 4 ballot.  This proposition, if approved by voters, would amend the California constitution to limit marriage to the union of a man and a woman.  The measure is an effort to reverse last May's decision by the California Supreme Court to legalize same-sex marriage.

Given the state's huge population and cultural influence, all eyes are now on California.  But so should be our ears.  Do we hear a shift in the language coming?  If so, the language will change far more than vocabulary and word usage.

Civilizations are built on careful and necessary distinctions.  As an institution, marriage has been defined throughout history as a heterosexual union.  Marriage is so central to our civilization that its related words have become equally essential.  Words like "husband" and "wife" have been necessary to understanding our stories, our laws, our families, our social arrangements, and our aspirations.  Transform marriage into a homosexual institution, and the vocabulary no longer works.

The effects of this linguistic transformation are most acute among the young.  Language acquisition is among the most essential tasks of childhood -- and this includes everything from early babbling to vocabulary lists at school.

When children acquire a language without the words "husband" or "wife," they acquire a cultural knowledge that betrays the subversion of the central institution of civilization itself.  "Partner" is just not enough to carry the meaning of marriage.  Will "husband" and "wife" soon be relegated to the dust-bin of obsolete words?  If so, the loss will leave us speechless.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



In addition to being one of Salem's nationally syndicated radio talk show hosts, R. Albert Mohler, Jr. is the president of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky and recognized as one of America's leading theologians and cultural commentators. Contact Dr. Mohler at mail at albertmohler.com.  

Find this article at: http://www.crosswalk.com/news/commentary/11583380/

Corey Cook

From ccook01 at knology.net  Mon Nov 10 04:39:30 2008
From: ccook01 at knology.net (Corey Cook)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 23:39:30 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] article4
Message-ID: <A44FB971A6D54B02A2851B7A742AFEF7@TheCooksPC>

What's Really at Stake in the Gay Marriage Debate? Part 4
Albert Mohler
President, Southern Baptist Theological Seminary 

October 27, 2008

Writing more than twenty years ago, Thomas Sowell described the basic worldview clash we observe today as a struggle between "constrained" and "unconstrained" visions of humanity.  The fundamental distinction between these two visions is moral, but the thrust of each is ideological.  The constrained vision may be considered basically conservative, while the unconstrained vision is basically liberal, in modern terms. 

There is great wisdom in Sowell's analysis, and in his book, The Conflict of Visions. But the greatest achievement of this book is Sowell's insistence that political struggles have ideological origins.

This is certainly true with reference to the political struggle over same-sex marriage.  In California, the controversy is over "Proposition 8" on the November ballot -- a measure that would amend the state's constitution to establish marriage as the union of a man and a woman.  Voters in Arizona and Florida will face measures that would disallow same-sex marriages.

Nationwide, we face efforts to repeal the Defense of Marriage Act (a repeal championed by Sen. Barack Obama) and to achieve same-sex marriage through the courts.  State by state, the issue is constantly reshaped and reframed.

At the same time, there is a sense that the public is shifting its perception of the issue.  When the issue is framed as simple fairness, Americans increasingly seem to tire of arguing that sexual behavior or orientation (at least in terms of homosexuality) should matter when it comes to the basic rights associated with marriage.  This trend is especially noticeable among the young.  Younger Americans, by and large, see homosexuality as part of the recognizable landscape and within the normal range of human behaviors.

All this represents a massive shift in perception over a relatively short period of time.  The activists promoting the normalization of homosexuality have been tremendously successful in their efforts.  The mainstream media, the educational elites, and various culture shapers have pushed this cause.  Today, on the average college or university campus, homosexuality is not considered to be a major moral issue.  Any discrimination against homosexuals, on the other hand, is considered a moral issue of urgency and outrage.  In much of the culture, it is considered increasingly immoral to assert that homosexuality is immoral.

There is no real ground for compromise between these two visions and perspectives.  Both sides frame their argument in moral terms.  Advocates of the constrained vision argue that humanity is heterosexual by default and design and that homosexuality is thus an aberration to be sanctioned and discouraged.  Advocates of the unconstrained vision argue that homosexuality is just one among several acceptable options for humanity.

This framework for analysis helps to explain why the two opposing sides in this controversy see the issue in such starkly different terms.

Those opposed to same-sex marriage see marriage as an essentially heterosexual institution that is fundamental to human happiness and the well-being of civilization.  Those who support same-sex marriage see limiting marriage to heterosexuals as a way of exercising patriarchal oppression against sexual minorities.  Marriage is seen, therefore, as an obstacle to human happiness and autonomy that must be either destroyed or radically revised.  The quest for this radical revision is seen as an act of human liberation.  To the conservative, this is a mortal blow directed at the very heart of the culture.

Moral conservatives see homosexual behaviors as matters of grave moral concern.  Moral liberals and libertarians see homosexuality as no more morally significant than the color of one's eyes.  It's just part of what makes some people who they are.

Adding credence to Sowell's argument, a person's position on same-sex marriage is a very good predictor of positions held on other issues as well.  Careful observers know that this is no coincidence.  A cadre of liberal Hollywood celebrities supports same-sex marriage as what they call a civil rights issue and recently held fundraisers that produced millions of dollars to defeat Proposition 8.  Meanwhile, opposition to same-sex marriage is most discernable among conservative Christians and other conservative groups like the Mormons.

The middle ground is fast disappearing, even as arguments based in a framework of natural law seem to carry no public force.  This leaves conservative Christians -- evangelicals in the main -- as the bulwark of opposition to same-sex marriage.  For evangelicals, the question is always a question of what the Bible teaches, and the Bible straightforwardly presents homosexual behaviors as immoral and sinful -- and in stark terms.

Believers committed to biblical authority will find no way to avoid this controversy, and no ground for accepting the "fairness" argument.  If the Bible is the revealed Word of God, then we know that homosexuality is a sin of great spiritual consequence.  Those who reject the authority of the Bible will, in the end, likely come to accept some argument for the normalization of homosexuality and homosexual relationships.

Despite their massive and contentious collision over this great question, the two opposing sides in this controversy are agreed on one major point -- the importance of the issue.  Both sides believe that the victory of their position on this issue is a precondition for true human happiness and human thriving.  And, truth be known, both sides see the other camp as a threat to human happiness and well-being.

To a significant degree, these opposing camps define almost all of reality in starkly different terms.  Both sides bring energy and passion to the public square.  Both sides see the controversy as a battle for the future of civilization.

On that point, at least, both sides are right.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Find this article at: http://www.crosswalk.com/news/commentary/11583981/

Corey Cook

From trising at sbcglobal.net  Mon Nov 10 04:46:49 2008
From: trising at sbcglobal.net (trising at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 23:46:49 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] article 1
References: <5F3A84795F784BB39F938F35FB1FD13B@TheCooksPC>
Message-ID: <540AD6D7A71946E7A883D27649F2C41F@nickf1758c2c9d>

Great article!



From ccook01 at knology.net  Mon Nov 10 04:48:38 2008
From: ccook01 at knology.net (Corey Cook)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 23:48:38 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Discussion
In-Reply-To: <20081110040703.1E100CCAF8@relay04.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
References: <20081110040703.1E100CCAF8@relay04.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
Message-ID: <BF32008C2281471698F5A5EFF0A211D2@TheCooksPC>

Linda,
Very well written email.
The bible is food for our souls.
Just as we need physical food, we must feast on the food of the word.
As for the issue of homosexuality, as many have pointed out it is sin.
God does hate sin, and this goes for all sin.
We as Christians need to remember that yes we should be angry about this 
life style being shoved on us.
But at the same time we need to also not let this sin get in the way of the 
sins we as Christians deal with.
We are all sinners, those of us who are Christians have been saved from our 
sins.
But don't be fooled we still deal with sin.
And to God that sin is just as ugly as homosexuality.
For some people maybe they need to deal with the way they treat others.
For others maybe it is the sin of not loving a wife or husband the way God 
says we should love them.
Just my thoughts.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Linda Mentink" <mentink at frontiernet.net>
To: <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 11:07 PM
Subject: [Faith-talk] Discussion


> Hi all,
>
> I have had my computer off since last night, but have read all the 
> messages, except the articles.
>
> Now, I'm speaking as a list member, and not the moderator, just so we're 
> clear here.  I believe the Bible--all of it.  It lays out very clearly 
> what sin is, what marriage is, what being a Christian is, and much, much 
> more.   The Bible says that homosexuality is a sin, and there are no true 
> Christians who practice this as a lifestyle.   As has been said here, it's 
> not our opinion; God doesn't care what we think, but what we believe His 
> Word, the Bible, to say.  The Bible is the Christian's guidebook.
>
> Because we are being forced to forget God in many public arenas, we as a 
> nation are not following His Word.  We are to love the sinner, but not the 
> sin.  Enough said from me on that point.
>
> I encourage all of you to daily read and study your Bibles, and apply what 
> you read to your lives each day.  Most in this country are not believers, 
> Christians, so we should expect them to behave as they do.  We who call 
> ourselves Christians should live separate, holy lives, that we might win 
> others to Christ.  That means how we dress, what music we listen to, how 
> we speak, how we spend our time, what we read, who we hang around with, 
> etc.  Things are going to get worse for us here, so we'd better be 
> grounded in the Word of God, and stay close to Him in prayer.
>
> Blessings,
>
> Linda
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>
Corey Cook 




From ccook01 at knology.net  Mon Nov 10 04:50:38 2008
From: ccook01 at knology.net (Corey Cook)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 23:50:38 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
In-Reply-To: <98D90F132DE0435A98DFE53D103F3590@lynnwhitePC>
References: <17B22BE1EC2F45149C8C36923C19FEB3@TheCooksPC><356348.90200.qm@web51909.mail.re2.yahoo.com><4383d01d0811091912k5b4dd09bud3bef5c09b3e90fb@mail.gmail.com>
	<98D90F132DE0435A98DFE53D103F3590@lynnwhitePC>
Message-ID: <94422655A2F645D08EA835596BC39625@TheCooksPC>

All sex out side of marriage is a sin in the bible.
The biggest sexual sin the church needs to deal with from with in side the 
church is premarital sex.
And extra marital sex.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "BMW" <lynnwhite51 at sbcglobal.net>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:49 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations


> Beth, sex outside of the relationship between a husband and wife is a sin.
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> To: <timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com>; "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith 
> and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 9:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>
>
>> Okay, if homosexuality is a sin, guess what?  What about the
>> homosexuals who have homosexual relations with each other and cannot
>> be attracted to opposite sex members?  I again may mention that I have
>> friends who are gay/lesbian.  And I am pleased with Obama in the white
>> house.  God knows what's best, and I believe in a God who loves all,
>> and God knows that homosexuality is a sin, but it is a sin between
>> those who can physically have someone of the opposite sex along with
>> being attracted with someone of the opposite sex.  Take my
>> ex-boyfriend for instance.  He likes women, but if he went to sleep
>> with a young college friend of mine who I know is attracted to girls,
>> THAT is a sin.  But if my friend who is lesbian went to sleep with the
>> equally lesbian girlfriend, it is not a sin.  We must love everybody
>> unconditionally, and we must not say that they are committing a sin
>> unless they really are and have the brain chemicals made up so that
>> they are attracted to someone of the opposite sex.  I am attracted to
>> menh, so if I went to sleep with my college roommate, for instance,
>> that would be a in in itself.  I am blind, and if I married a blind
>> man, that would be fine.  But the way this country and the bible seems
>> to be interpreted, homosexuality would be stomped out and next will be
>> blindness.  Before we know it, our listservs will be in jeopardy, an
>> then, we wouldn't be able to marry, write, read, go to college, and if
>> the Terrorists get our country, and that is if Barack Obama's not
>> watching over us, we will be wearing veils if we're female.  I for one
>> do not want any ore arguments about homosexuality to ever pop up again
>> on this listserv.  I want to play it straight: it may be a sin, but
>> unfortunately, nobody understands the homosexual cannot be changed if
>> they are truly homosexual.  I understand my friends, and they are good
>> people.  They are going to college and they are going to be band and
>> chorus teachers.  Do you people thin that these girls I'm friends with
>> shouldn't be band and chorus teachers to young children because they
>> are homosexuals?  According to the weird article I read, yes.  But I'd
>> hire them any time.
>> Anyway, that's my soap box for today.
>> Beth
>>
>> On 11/9/08, Frank Lordi <timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> you are speakin gof the concept of 'blood guilt'?
>>>
>>> This so often brought grief to Isreal, no?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --- On Sun, 11/9/08, Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> From: Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>> To: "Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 8:44 PM
>>>> Homosexuality is sin.
>>>> Read Romans 1
>>>> read first Corinthians 6
>>>> Yes we need to love them just as we love all sinners, but
>>>> it is time to call it what it is, and that is sin!
>>>> It is a sin that will be the end of this country if we
>>>> allow it to be accepted and embraced.
>>>> Not a popular thought, but a true one.
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Wheeler"
>>>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and
>>>> religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 6:29 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > Never mind.  I keep telling you it is called a sin in
>>>> the bible...if you don't want to believe that God calls
>>>> it a sin, I can't say anything to sway you.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > +-+-+-
>>>> >
>>>> >   There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none
>>>> beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
>>>> > 1 Samuel 2:2
>>>> > ~~~
>>>> >
>>>> > Alan D Wheeler
>>>> > awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>> > IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>> > Skype: redwheel1
>>>> > Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM
>>>> eastern time at www.theqonline.net
>>>> >
>>>> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beth"
>>>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>> > To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and
>>>> religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> > Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 2:41 PM
>>>> > Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >> We're talking about a country where not
>>>> everybody believes in God.  We
>>>> >> Christians are shoving God down the throats of
>>>> those who don't know
>>>> >> him.  We need to pray for the homosexuals and
>>>> those who are
>>>> >> experiencing a so-called sin ad we need to be
>>>> nicer to these people
>>>> >> for God's own sake.
>>>> >> Beth
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler
>>>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>>> >>> At the same time, homosexuality is called a
>>>> sin and abomination by God. So
>>>> >>> you think we should allow people to continue
>>>> to sin against God?
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> +-+-+-
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>    We know that all things work together for
>>>> good for those who love God, to
>>>> >>> those
>>>> >>> who are called according to his purpose.
>>>> >>>  Romans 8:28
>>>> >>> ~~~
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Alan D Wheeler
>>>> >>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>> >>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>> >>> Skype: redwheel1
>>>> >>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1
>>>> PM eastern time at
>>>> >>> www.theqonline.net
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> >>> From: "Beth"
>>>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>> >>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of
>>>> faith and religion"
>>>> >>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> >>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:44 AM
>>>> >>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> I would have toagree with Julie.  Marriage
>>>> is about love, not
>>>> >>>> procreative reasons only.  I've known
>>>> friends who've gotten married as
>>>> >>>> nonprocreative peoples.  Also, has anybody
>>>> thought that marriage
>>>> >>>> should at least be for those that can
>>>> participate in it as well?
>>>> >>>> Also, if we have bans on same-sex
>>>> marriage, think of it this way: we
>>>> >>>> are forcing religion on the people, which
>>>> God really doesn't want us
>>>> >>>> to do.  To be Christ-like is not to shove
>>>> God down the throats of
>>>> >>>> those who don't know him, but to
>>>> spread God's love to them, to let
>>>> >>>> them be free people.
>>>> >>>> Beth
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler
>>>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>>> Beth,
>>>> >>>>> I gently disagree with you.  Marriage
>>>> was designed by God to be between a
>>>> >>>>> man and a woman.  Don't take issue
>>>> because I said it.  Study the Bible
>>>> >>>>> and
>>>> >>>>> if you still don't like it, then
>>>> you have to take it up with God.  It was
>>>> >>>>> His idea to begin with, not man's.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> +-+-+-
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>    The LORD is my strength and song,
>>>> and he is become my salvation: he is
>>>> >>>>> my
>>>> >>>>> God, and I will prepare him an
>>>> >>>>>  habitation; my father's God, and
>>>> I will exalt him.
>>>> >>>>>  Exodus 15:2
>>>> >>>>> ~~~
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>>> >>>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>> >>>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>> >>>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>>> >>>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10
>>>> AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>>> >>>>> www.theqonline.net
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> >>>>> From: "Beth"
>>>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>> >>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the
>>>> discussion of faith and religion"
>>>> >>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 7:29
>>>> AM
>>>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False
>>>> Accusations
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> I don't care if Obama's
>>>> half-black.  God's people will come to
>>>> >>>>>> understand a few things:
>>>> >>>>>> 1. Marriage, for example, is not
>>>> between "one man and one woman".  It
>>>> >>>>>> is between two able parties, same
>>>> o different sex, that are actually
>>>> >>>>>> willing to stay together.  Our
>>>> high divorce rate of heterosexual
>>>> >>>>>> couples mostly is bad for our
>>>> children herein America.
>>>> >>>>>> 2. Abortion should never happen.
>>>> If it's something that has to do
>>>> >>>>>> with the mother's life and
>>>> health, then that's the only exception.
>>>> >>>>>> But rape and birth control reasons
>>>> are not good ones.
>>>> >>>>>> 3. Blind people can and wwill have
>>>> equal rights to vote, gain security
>>>> >>>>>> benefits, and so on.  Yes,
>>>> Obama's the most liberal, but we need him.
>>>> >>>>>> Maybe he's a lot more
>>>> Christian than Bush was.  But God's people must
>>>> >>>>>> not be against him.  I'm a
>>>> Catholic, and I'm also a liberal as well.
>>>> >>>>>> Obama has also beat Kennedy by so
>>>> many years.  ANything having to do
>>>> >>>>>> with race is out as far as I'm
>>>> concerned.  Next, what will happen when
>>>> >>>>>> a woman is in the White House?
>>>> What about a blind woman? lol
>>>> >>>>>> Beth
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> On 11/8/08, Linda Mentink
>>>> <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Julie,
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> I'm sorry, too.  I'm
>>>> not against our president elect because he's
>>>> >>>>>>> black.  Fact is, he's half
>>>> black.  That's neither here nor
>>>> >>>>>>> there.  It's mainly
>>>> because he's the most liberal of all in Congress,
>>>> >>>>>>> and I believe that a lot of
>>>> our rights will be taken away once he is
>>>> >>>>>>> sworn in.  We'll see what
>>>> happens, but I'm praying for him, and all
>>>> >>>>>>> the rest in authority over us.
>>>>  I sent those things to you because I
>>>> >>>>>>> knew you wouldn't find out
>>>> from the mainstream media.  But the
>>>> >>>>>>> election has made history, and
>>>> God's people need to be more vigilent
>>>> >>>>>>> than
>>>> >>>>>>> ever.
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> Blessings,
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> Linda
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> At 03:33 PM 11/8/2008, you
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>>> It happened by accident.
>>>> When you didn't stop attacking in my
>>>> >>>>>>>> in-box--those of you who
>>>> did it--people of other races by way of our
>>>> >>>>>>>> new President-elect, I
>>>> wrote what I wrote.  Now you know how false
>>>> >>>>>>>> accusations hurt
>>>> everybody.  Because of one man the African-American
>>>> >>>>>>>> Church, and people who
>>>> attend them, have been under tremendous
>>>> >>>>>>>> attack ever since last
>>>> March with no let-up.  Ever since I began
>>>> >>>>>>>> attending and became saved
>>>> in African-American churches in 1972,
>>>> >>>>>>>> I've heard dirty,
>>>> dirty comments like:  "they just do in their
>>>> >>>>>>>> church what they did in
>>>> the slave days."  In the slave days,
>>>> >>>>>>>> African-Americans
>>>> weren't permitted to know anything of the Bible
>>>> >>>>>>>> but "Servants obey
>>>> your masters in the Lord for this is right.
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> If people say what people
>>>> have said about one another's churches
>>>> >>>>>>>> ever since last March,
>>>> referring to us as blind people, we'd be up
>>>> >>>>>>>> in arms.  Let us all be
>>>> more careful.
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> It hit me like a
>>>> thunderbolt while I was playing piano at a senior
>>>> >>>>>>>> citizens building today
>>>> why you all were upset.  And as upset as you
>>>> >>>>>>>> were last Thursday night,
>>>> Linda, I was that upset one month ago when
>>>> >>>>>>>> I read what you
>>>> particularly sent me privately at 5:00 on a Sunday
>>>> >>>>>>>> morning while  I was
>>>> getting ready for church.  I'm sorry and maybe
>>>> >>>>>>>> we can understand one
>>>> another better now.
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>  has been
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> "Loyalty to petrified
>>>> opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a
>>>> >>>>>>>> human soul," American
>>>> Humorist Mark Twain
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> "An attack on one of
>>>> us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth
>>>> >>>>>>>> Jernigan, Immediate Past
>>>> President, National Federation of the Blind
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> "A brother offended
>>>> is harder to be won than a strong city: and
>>>> >>>>>>>> their contentions are like
>>>> the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> "Faith is the ability
>>>> to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> "No one can do it for
>>>> us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push,
>>>> >>>>>>>> 1976.
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> "With proper
>>>> training, development, and opportunity, blindness can
>>>> >>>>>>>> be reduced to the level of
>>>> a physical nuisance or characteristic,"
>>>> >>>>>>>> the Late Dr. Kenneth
>>>> Jernigan, Past President, National Federation
>>>> >>>>>>>> of the Blind.
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> Julie Vogt or
>>>> jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> >>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change
>>>> your list options or get your account info
>>>> >>>>>>>> for Faith-talk:
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> >>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
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>>>> >>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> >>>>>>>
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>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> >>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
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>>>> >>>>>> Faith-talk:
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>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> No virus found in this incoming
>>>> message.
>>>> >>>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>> >>>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database:
>>>> 270.9.0/1776 - Release Date: 11/8/2008
>>>> >>>>> 6:49 PM
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> >>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
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>>>> >>>>> Faith-talk:
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>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> >>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> >>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options
>>>> or get your account info for
>>>> >>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> >>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>> >>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>> >>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database:
>>>> 270.9.0/1778 - Release Date: 11/9/2008
>>>> >>> 2:14 PM
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> >>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> >>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or
>>>> get your account info for
>>>> >>> Faith-talk:
>>>> >>>
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>>>> >>>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>> >> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> >> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> >>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get
>>>> your account info for Faith-talk:
>>>> >>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>> > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>> > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1778 -
>>>> Release Date: 11/9/2008 2:14 PM
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> > Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> >
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>> account info for Faith-talk:
>>>> >
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>>>> >
>>>> Corey Cook
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
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>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/lynnwhite51%40sbcglobal.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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Corey Cook 




From ccook01 at knology.net  Mon Nov 10 04:51:30 2008
From: ccook01 at knology.net (Corey Cook)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 23:51:30 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] More about homosexuality.
In-Reply-To: <31C23822BE7246E2A07426880ABA96D4@lynnwhitePC>
References: <45DA65A746C4427D84681755CC35CB99@Alan><4383d01d0811091253x2afd9cffu8fc0dcd74995a54d@mail.gmail.com>
	<31C23822BE7246E2A07426880ABA96D4@lynnwhitePC>
Message-ID: <63A3EFD1C0EF4E9787C2EFA87034453E@TheCooksPC>

The great part is Paul says that that was what we were before we were 
forgiven.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "BMW" <lynnwhite51 at sbcglobal.net>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] More about homosexuality.


> well, Beth, your view goes against the old and new Testament.  Nobody is 
> being a bigot or anything like that.
>
> What do you do with the verses that speak against adultery, drunkardness, 
> slanderers, fornicators?  Paul says that all of have fit into one of these 
> categories before we were forgiven.
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 2:53 PM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] More about homosexuality.
>
>
>> Allan, this article is severely biased and is hurtful to homosexual
>> friends of mine.  Thank God they didn't read this.  To be honest, I
>> love my friends, all my friends heterosexual and homosexual.  Every
>> kid has the right to two loving parents, but not necessarily a mom and
>> a dad.  Gay couples and lesbian couples are still adoptable couples.
>> I've seen a lesbian couple that adopted two Cree First Nations
>> children.  I saw a gay couple adopt special needs twins who had
>> addiction problems.  This country needs to be more progressive and
>> stop attacking homosexuals because they are homosexuals.  Before you
>> know it, Allan, this country will put blind and visually impaired
>> people as well as cognitively disabled people in their places: along
>> with the homosexuals, below sighted and heterosexual people.  Before
>> you know it, Allan, African Americans will be kicked out of office and
>> there will be an assassination attempt on Barack Obama, who I hope
>> will reign for eight long and healthy years.  Please watch what you're
>> saying!  We're all Christians on this list!  Can't we accept others'
>> beliefs and opinions here?  I'm not trying to be psychic and prophetic
>> here, but please understand that I am very concerned that this nation
>> is going to fall down like Rome did and we won't have a very healthy
>> end if you know what I mean.  And not everybody believes in God.  And
>> God loves everybody, and even though it is written that homosexuality
>> is a sin, attacking homosexuals who are not atracted and refuse to be
>> attracted to the opposite sex is wrong.  We cannot an will not attack
>> others because they are a different brand of homo sapiens sapiens.
>> Beth
>>
>> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>> I went to www.biblegateway.com to see what I could find about 
>>> homosexuality
>>> and the bible.  This was among the resources.  So, again I say, and this 
>>> is
>>> my last comment on the subject, if you disagree that marriage is only 
>>> for
>>> men and women, then your argument is with God.  It's in His book.
>>>
>>> http://www.faithfacts.org/christ-and-the-culture/gay-rights#marriage
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  Sanctity of Marriage
>>> In recent years, the homosexual movement has centered on giving
>>> marriage-like benefits to gay couples. Many in the culture have 
>>> mistakenly
>>> concluded that marriage is merely an institution for the convenience of
>>> adults. In actuality, marriage is the bedrock institution for culture to
>>> sustain itself through having and nurturing children. There are
>>> complementary aspects to a man and woman that are important to the
>>> instutution of marriage which go beyond the obvious physical attributes.
>>> There are things that a man needs that can only be provided by a woman, 
>>> and
>>> vice versa.
>>>
>>> These complementary aspects are important to the relationship of the 
>>> couple
>>> itself, as well as to the children. One does not have to appeal to 
>>> religion
>>> to instinctively understand this. Yet statistics verify the structure of 
>>> the
>>> traditional family as the approach to raising children that gives the 
>>> best
>>> measurable results. The overwhelming body of social science research 
>>> agrees
>>> that children do best when raised in homes with married, opposite-sex
>>> parents. Every child has the right to both a mom and a dad.
>>>
>>> Yet we cannot divorce the institution of marriage from its theological
>>> roots. We acknowledge that marriage is an institution given by God 
>>> (Genesis
>>> 2:24). The Creator of the Universe established the relationship between 
>>> a
>>> man and a woman, thus it is a divine institution, not a human one. To 
>>> confer
>>> marriage-like rights to gays is not the prerogative of people (Matthew
>>> 19:6). (This includes civil unions or domestic partnerships, as they are
>>> merely marriage by other names.) Defining marriage is the prerogative of
>>> God. Whatever may tend to undermine the institution of marriage would 
>>> also
>>> undermine the authority of God, as well as hurt society.
>>>
>>> Liberals may argue, "Why should we arbitrarily select only heterosexual
>>> couples for marriage? What can it hurt if two homosexuals want to 
>>> marry?"
>>> The answer is surprisingly simple. The institution of marriage between 
>>> and
>>> man a woman is not, in fact, arbitrary. It's purpose is clear and of 
>>> utmost
>>> importance to society.
>>>
>>> David Orland in an article entitled "The Deceit of Gay Marriage" puts it
>>> very well. He says:
>>>
>>>   To justify giving privileges or exemptions or subsidies to some 
>>> particular
>>> group in society, the benefit of doing so for society at large must 
>>> first be
>>> shown. With heterosexual marriage, the case is clear enough. 
>>> Heterosexual
>>> marriage is a matter of genuine social interest because the family is
>>> essential to society's reproduction. The crux of my argument, in other
>>> words, was that married couples receive the benefits they do, not 
>>> because
>>> the state is interested in promoting romantic love, or because the Bible
>>> says so or because of the influence of special interest groups but 
>>> rather
>>> because the next generation is something that is and should be of 
>>> interest
>>> to all of us. And, by definition, this is not a case that can be made 
>>> for
>>> homosexual unions. To that degree, the attempt to turn the question of
>>> domestic partnership into a debate about fairness falls flat.
>>>
>>>   The more persistent supporters of domestic partnership will of course
>>> respond to this argument by pointing to the case in which homosexual
>>> partners adopt children or, in the case of lesbians, undergo artificial
>>> insemination. The intention here is to show that the nuclear family is 
>>> found
>>> even among homosexual couples and that, to that extent, homosexual 
>>> unions do
>>> indeed meet the same criterion of social interest as heterosexual ones 
>>> and
>>> thus should be granted legal status. It is a weak argument and one that
>>> ultimately back-fires on those who employ it. This is for two reasons:
>>>
>>>   First, adoption by homosexual couples is still exceedingly rare and 
>>> the
>>> law-though many are surprised to learn this-is aimed at the general 
>>> case. To
>>> confer legal benefits on the entire class of would-be homosexual spouses
>>> just because some very small minority of this class approximates the 
>>> pattern
>>> of the nuclear family would be a bit like admitting all applicants to a
>>> select university on the grounds that a few of them had been shown to 
>>> meet
>>> the entrance requirements.
>>>
>>>   Second, the right of this small minority to the benefits of marriage 
>>> is
>>> dubious in the extreme. Homosexual "families" of whatever type are 
>>> always
>>> and necessarily parasitic on heterosexual ones.
>>>
>>> Every child has the right to a mom and a dad. See 5 Reasons Why Same-Sex
>>> Marriage Harms Children.
>>>
>>> But homosexuals not only want fair treatment, they are pushing for 
>>> "Super
>>> Rights." According the Paul Cameron of the Family Research Institute:
>>>
>>>   "Every member of society has a duty to contribute to the commonwealth. 
>>> Yet
>>> the empirical evidence indicates that those who engage in homosexuality 
>>> 1)
>>> contribute less and cost more in goods and services, 2) 
>>> disproportionately
>>> disrupt social functioning, and 3) have few children while being more 
>>> apt to
>>> harm them. Thus, homosexual practioners not only fail to 'pay for their
>>> keep,' but by their negative influence on children, cloud society's 
>>> future.
>>>
>>>   Those who engage in homosexuality seek what they say are 'gay rights." 
>>> In
>>> reality, they are demanding Super Rights. Super Rights are those 
>>> privileges
>>> that allow one to ovverride the inalienable rights of other citizens, 
>>> such
>>> as freedom of speech and association. These Super Rights-which are 
>>> conferred
>>> by 'non-discrimination,' 'hate crime,' and 'hate speech' laws-allow
>>> homosexuals, if they so choose, to endanger or punish those who would
>>> exercise their associational rights to avoid them or protect their 
>>> children
>>> from them.
>>>
>>>   As an example, empirical studies to date indicate that a male teacher 
>>> who
>>> practices homosexuality is the most likely kind of teacher to sexually
>>> molest students. A principal knowing this may not want to hire a teacher 
>>> who
>>> declares his homosexual interests. But if that teacher wants the job, 
>>> his
>>> Super Rights trump the associational rights of the principal as well as 
>>> the
>>> right of students not to experience extra risk (especially since safety 
>>> is
>>> part of their right to life). Parents renting out one side of their 
>>> duplex
>>> may not want to place their children at risk by renting to a gay couple. 
>>> But
>>> if-even on a whim - the homosexuals want the duplex, their Super Rights
>>> trump the property and associational rights of the parents as well as 
>>> their
>>> children's right not to be exposed to potential molestation.
>>>
>>>   The Super Rights of homosexual practitioners also squelch the right of
>>> others to freedom of speech. If a broadcaster opines that homosexual sex 
>>> is
>>> dangerous, but a homosexual finds such speech 'offensive,' his Super 
>>> Rights
>>> trump the broadcaster's freedom of speech and the broadcaster may be 
>>> fined
>>> or imprisoned."
>>>
>>> The concept of hate crimes seems particularly reprehensible. If one of 
>>> your
>>> (heterosexual) loved ones is the object of a despicable crime, the
>>> perpetrator would receive a lesser punishment than someone who committed 
>>> the
>>> same act against someone who practices homosexual sex!
>>>
>>> +-+-+-
>>>
>>>    He has made clear to you, O man, what is good; and what is desired 
>>> from
>>> you by the Lord; only doing what is
>>>  right, and loving mercy, and walking without pride before your God. 
>>> Micah
>>> 6:8
>>> ~~~
>>>
>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>> www.theqonline.net
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/lynnwhite51%40sbcglobal.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>
Corey Cook 




From ccook01 at knology.net  Mon Nov 10 04:53:55 2008
From: ccook01 at knology.net (Corey Cook)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 23:53:55 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
In-Reply-To: <4383d01d0811090844o4496c680xf7c1eb301ac76b6f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <E9B0A7C28DD444F7ADC7CB300F67830F@your4dacd0ea75><20081109035831.9E797AC853@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net><4383d01d0811090529o40db51do77b90bee606dc92b@mail.gmail.com><34EE51212347460BBC336CEB5D414D5A@Alan>
	<4383d01d0811090844o4496c680xf7c1eb301ac76b6f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9DCDBFF78BCA404DA35C214549A0D586@TheCooksPC>

Beth,
The thing is that Christians are called to love and also be salt and light.
In this case saying gay marriage is wrong is apart of being salt and light.
May I also point out that this past week in California many many people who 
Voted for President Obama also voted for prop 8!

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 11:44 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations


>I would have toagree with Julie.  Marriage is about love, not
> procreative reasons only.  I've known friends who've gotten married as
> nonprocreative peoples.  Also, has anybody thought that marriage
> should at least be for those that can participate in it as well?
> Also, if we have bans on same-sex marriage, think of it this way: we
> are forcing religion on the people, which God really doesn't want us
> to do.  To be Christ-like is not to shove God down the throats of
> those who don't know him, but to spread God's love to them, to let
> them be free people.
> Beth
>
> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>> Beth,
>> I gently disagree with you.  Marriage was designed by God to be between a
>> man and a woman.  Don't take issue because I said it.  Study the Bible 
>> and
>> if you still don't like it, then you have to take it up with God.  It was
>> His idea to begin with, not man's.
>>
>>
>> +-+-+-
>>
>>    The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is 
>> my
>> God, and I will prepare him an
>>  habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.
>>  Exodus 15:2
>> ~~~
>>
>> Alan D Wheeler
>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>> Skype: redwheel1
>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>> www.theqonline.net
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 7:29 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>
>>
>>>I don't care if Obama's half-black.  God's people will come to
>>> understand a few things:
>>> 1. Marriage, for example, is not between "one man and one woman".  It
>>> is between two able parties, same o different sex, that are actually
>>> willing to stay together.  Our high divorce rate of heterosexual
>>> couples mostly is bad for our children herein America.
>>> 2. Abortion should never happen.  If it's something that has to do
>>> with the mother's life and health, then that's the only exception.
>>> But rape and birth control reasons are not good ones.
>>> 3. Blind people can and wwill have equal rights to vote, gain security
>>> benefits, and so on.  Yes, Obama's the most liberal, but we need him.
>>> Maybe he's a lot more Christian than Bush was.  But God's people must
>>> not be against him.  I'm a Catholic, and I'm also a liberal as well.
>>> Obama has also beat Kennedy by so many years.  ANything having to do
>>> with race is out as far as I'm concerned.  Next, what will happen when
>>> a woman is in the White House?  What about a blind woman? lol
>>> Beth
>>>
>>> On 11/8/08, Linda Mentink <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
>>>> Hi Julie,
>>>>
>>>> I'm sorry, too.  I'm not against our president elect because he's
>>>> black.  Fact is, he's half black.  That's neither here nor
>>>> there.  It's mainly because he's the most liberal of all in Congress,
>>>> and I believe that a lot of our rights will be taken away once he is
>>>> sworn in.  We'll see what happens, but I'm praying for him, and all
>>>> the rest in authority over us.  I sent those things to you because I
>>>> knew you wouldn't find out from the mainstream media.  But the
>>>> election has made history, and God's people need to be more vigilent 
>>>> than
>>>> ever.
>>>>
>>>> Blessings,
>>>>
>>>> Linda
>>>>
>>>> At 03:33 PM 11/8/2008, you wrote:
>>>>>It happened by accident.  When you didn't stop attacking in my
>>>>>in-box--those of you who did it--people of other races by way of our
>>>>>new President-elect, I wrote what I wrote.  Now you know how false
>>>>>accusations hurt everybody.  Because of one man the African-American
>>>>>Church, and people who attend them, have been under tremendous
>>>>>attack ever since last March with no let-up.  Ever since I began
>>>>>attending and became saved in African-American churches in 1972,
>>>>>I've heard dirty, dirty comments like:  "they just do in their
>>>>>church what they did in the slave days."  In the slave days,
>>>>>African-Americans weren't permitted to know anything of the Bible
>>>>>but "Servants obey your masters in the Lord for this is right.
>>>>>
>>>>>If people say what people have said about one another's churches
>>>>>ever since last March, referring to us as blind people, we'd be up
>>>>>in arms.  Let us all be more careful.
>>>>>
>>>>>It hit me like a thunderbolt while I was playing piano at a senior
>>>>>citizens building today why you all were upset.  And as upset as you
>>>>>were last Thursday night, Linda, I was that upset one month ago when
>>>>>I read what you particularly sent me privately at 5:00 on a Sunday
>>>>>morning while  I was getting ready for church.  I'm sorry and maybe
>>>>>we can understand one another better now.
>>>>>
>>>>>  has been
>>>>>
>>>>>"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a
>>>>>human soul," American Humorist Mark Twain
>>>>>
>>>>>"An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth
>>>>>Jernigan, Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind
>>>>>
>>>>>"A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and
>>>>>their contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
>>>>>
>>>>>"Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>>>>>
>>>>>"No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push,
>>>>> 1976.
>>>>>
>>>>>"With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can
>>>>>be reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic,"
>>>>>the Late Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation
>>>>>of the Blind.
>>>>>
>>>>>Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>for Faith-talk:
>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1776 - Release Date: 11/8/2008
>> 6:49 PM
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>
Corey Cook 




From poetlori8 at msn.com  Mon Nov 10 04:57:41 2008
From: poetlori8 at msn.com (Barbara Hammel)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 22:57:41 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Emailing: Last Days Ministries I'm Gay, O.K.
In-Reply-To: <35A03D458698454A84A02B53EB5728FC@Buster><0AE2D4A5152D4796862C6EFB2E88D3AE@nickf1758c2c9d>
	<4383d01d0811091933w2fff5563r4b7dc4d58c5eb47c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <35A03D458698454A84A02B53EB5728FC@Buster><0AE2D4A5152D4796862C6EFB2E88D3AE@nickf1758c2c9d>
	<4383d01d0811091933w2fff5563r4b7dc4d58c5eb47c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY113-DS3FC099D4F44C593F5BF96EB1A0@phx.gbl>

And where in the Bible does it say anything about blind people being bad? 
People just happened to be blind, God didn't say being blind was a sin.
Barbara

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 9:33 PM
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Emailing: Last Days Ministries I'm Gay, O.K.

> Come on!  I've said it enough.  Marriage isn't going to just be
> "between ONE MAN and ONE WOMAN" enough these days.  Before you know
> it, Christians will interpret the Bible as being of the able-bodied to
> be perfect and capable of multiplyin and so on.  This is horrible!
> Bet
>
> On 11/9/08, trising at sbcglobal.net <trising at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> That is an absolutely excellent article! All of us sin and fall short of 
>> the
>> glory of God, whether we are gay or a gossip. Jesus loves all of us and 
>> came
>> here to die in our place for our sins so we can go to heaven and be with
>> him. We will not go there if we do not trust in Him alone as the provider 
>> of
>> our salvation. People who commit any sin, and that means all of us, 
>> deserve
>> to be loved, but not to have our sin excused or minimized. It is God's
>> design for marriage to be between one man and one woman. we as Christians
>> can stand up for what is right, while loving those caught in homosexual 
>> sin.
>> Giving them special rights is wrong, but so is refusing to talk to them, 
>> or
>> regarding them as someone God cannot save.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
> 



From poetlori8 at msn.com  Mon Nov 10 05:01:15 2008
From: poetlori8 at msn.com (Barbara Hammel)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 23:01:15 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] false accusations
In-Reply-To: <BAY133-DAV399AD1DB73AE87D9E8823901A0@phx.gbl>
	<4383d01d0811091915x625230a9n8d9f30092d639ff2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY133-DAV399AD1DB73AE87D9E8823901A0@phx.gbl>
	<4383d01d0811091915x625230a9n8d9f30092d639ff2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY113-DS2A48FF422DC43061339BEEB1A0@phx.gbl>

I learned about all the evils of Roman and Greek civilization just by 
reading National Geographic.  We must study history so we can learn why 
civilizations crumble.  It doesn't do to say that was them and we're 
different.  Ecclesiastes says it best what the refrain is "There is nothing 
new under the sun."  All the evils we're thinking up now are not new, just 
coming to a different place.
Barbara

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 9:15 PM
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] false accusations

> I'd like to see those writings myself.
> Beth
>
> On 11/9/08, Pat Gormley <kk3f at msn.com> wrote:
>> This thread brought to mind a lengthy discussion a number of us had one
>> night  by the fireplace at the National center between Dr. Maurer, myself
>> and a couple of us who have been trained in the classics and are both 
>> very
>> familiar with the Socratic method.  Marc had just read some of the later
>> roman poets such as Catulus, Plautus and Terrence.  Some of the platonic
>> writings also indicate what was going on in Greek society and the Latin
>> poets mentioned earlier Roman society respectively.  There is an amazing
>> parallel between those writings and what's going on today.  I gave him 
>> the
>> names of those authors so he could look up their writings the net since a
>> lot of those texts are freely available.  There are quite a number of 
>> these
>> writings on disk as well.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
> 



From poetlori8 at msn.com  Mon Nov 10 05:05:33 2008
From: poetlori8 at msn.com (Barbara Hammel)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 23:05:33 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] false accusations
In-Reply-To: <BAY133-DAV7C5DF97F6C797B9A3FAA2901B0@phx.gbl><3DE6C8F59A0A4C4E902D8D50D4BF8043@TheCooksPC>
	<4383d01d0811091914k3751b511h4f7af9209ce59288@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY133-DAV7C5DF97F6C797B9A3FAA2901B0@phx.gbl><3DE6C8F59A0A4C4E902D8D50D4BF8043@TheCooksPC>
	<4383d01d0811091914k3751b511h4f7af9209ce59288@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY113-DS3C6688C327278D0DB7291EB1A0@phx.gbl>

And it's this lack of caring about what's gone on before that has led to the 
fall of every civilization that has reinvented the abhorances the Bible 
speaks of.
Barbara

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 9:14 PM
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] false accusations

> Okay, okay.  I just said it already.  I don't care about your surveys,
> your statistics and data.  It just sounds like a bunch of warped
> knowledge to me.
> Beth
>
> On 11/9/08, Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net> wrote:
>> Well put Pat.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Pat Gormley" <kk3f at msn.com>
>> To: <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 6:09 PM
>> Subject: [Faith-talk] false accusations
>>
>>
>>> People that favor same sex unions tend not to be very good students of
>>> history.  Ancient Greece and Rome both experienced similar breakdowns in
>>> society as their civilizations.  You also need to look at actuarial data
>>> and those tables indicate that those who engage in alternative 
>>> lifestyles
>>> tend to live 10 to 15 years less than a similarly in tact married 
>>> couple.
>>> I agree with Alan Wheeler in that we hate the sin  but not the sinner.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>>>
>> Corey Cook
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
> 



From timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 10 05:14:47 2008
From: timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com (Frank Lordi)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 21:14:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Faith-talk] Emailing: Last Days Ministries I'm Gay, O.K.
In-Reply-To: <BAY113-DS3FC099D4F44C593F5BF96EB1A0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <875437.29995.qm@web51908.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Doesnt the Lord specifically say the blind man he heals was not blind due to his sin or that of his ancestors? <This is a reading just before easter, perhaps someone can help with the reference?>

Is any of this making nay sense?
thanks
Frank


--- On Sun, 11/9/08, Barbara Hammel <poetlori8 at msn.com> wrote:

> From: Barbara Hammel <poetlori8 at msn.com>
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Emailing: Last Days Ministries I'm Gay, O.K.
> To: "Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 11:57 PM
> And where in the Bible does it say anything about blind
> people being bad? People just happened to be blind, God
> didn't say being blind was a sin.
> Barbara
> 
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 9:33 PM
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and
> religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Emailing: Last Days Ministries
> I'm Gay, O.K.
> 
> > Come on!  I've said it enough.  Marriage isn't
> going to just be
> > "between ONE MAN and ONE WOMAN" enough these
> days.  Before you know
> > it, Christians will interpret the Bible as being of
> the able-bodied to
> > be perfect and capable of multiplyin and so on.  This
> is horrible!
> > Bet
> > 
> > On 11/9/08, trising at sbcglobal.net
> <trising at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >> That is an absolutely excellent article! All of us
> sin and fall short of the
> >> glory of God, whether we are gay or a gossip.
> Jesus loves all of us and came
> >> here to die in our place for our sins so we can go
> to heaven and be with
> >> him. We will not go there if we do not trust in
> Him alone as the provider of
> >> our salvation. People who commit any sin, and that
> means all of us, deserve
> >> to be loved, but not to have our sin excused or
> minimized. It is God's
> >> design for marriage to be between one man and one
> woman. we as Christians
> >> can stand up for what is right, while loving those
> caught in homosexual sin.
> >> Giving them special rights is wrong, but so is
> refusing to talk to them, or
> >> regarding them as someone God cannot save.
> >> 
> >> 
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Faith-talk mailing list
> >> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> >>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get
> your account info for
> >> Faith-talk:
> >>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
> >> 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Faith-talk mailing list
> > Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> >
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
> account info for Faith-talk:
> >
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
> > 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
> account info for Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/timber_wolf899%40yahoo.com


      



From ccook01 at knology.net  Mon Nov 10 05:16:19 2008
From: ccook01 at knology.net (Corey Cook)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 00:16:19 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
In-Reply-To: <579159.68070.qm@web51906.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <579159.68070.qm@web51906.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B8FA7640775C4FDE80497B65B4DB0E43@TheCooksPC>

Well siad Frank

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Frank Lordi" <timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 11:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations


> The bible clearly states that homosexual sex is an abomination.
>
> This is one of the hardest things about believing.  We must submit to 
> God's law.  We are 'a stif fnecked people' so this is difficult but we 
> must do it.  We need not understand, we need not agree, but we must obey. 
> Our Lord says those are his friends who keep his commands.  So if we want 
> to be his friend, we must accept among other things, that homosexual sex 
> is a sin.
>
> Perhaps it will help to look at it this way.  I like women a great deal. 
> I cannot stop liking women.  Often times i 'want' badly to have relations 
> with said women, but God's law says no, so i must follow this or accept 
> the wages of sin.
>
> The same goes for homosexuals, for cleptomaniacs, for the greedy, the 
> hopeless, etc.  We all have our crosses to carry, our temptations to 
> resist.
>
> --- On Sun, 11/9/08, BMW <lynnwhite51 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> From: BMW <lynnwhite51 at sbcglobal.net>
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>> To: "Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion" 
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 10:49 PM
>> Beth, sex outside of the relationship between a husband and
>> wife is a sin.
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> To: <timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com>; "Faith-talk,for
>> the discussion of faith and
>> religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 9:12 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>
>>
>> > Okay, if homosexuality is a sin, guess what?  What
>> about the
>> > homosexuals who have homosexual relations with each
>> other and cannot
>> > be attracted to opposite sex members?  I again may
>> mention that I have
>> > friends who are gay/lesbian.  And I am pleased with
>> Obama in the white
>> > house.  God knows what's best, and I believe in a
>> God who loves all,
>> > and God knows that homosexuality is a sin, but it is a
>> sin between
>> > those who can physically have someone of the opposite
>> sex along with
>> > being attracted with someone of the opposite sex.
>> Take my
>> > ex-boyfriend for instance.  He likes women, but if he
>> went to sleep
>> > with a young college friend of mine who I know is
>> attracted to girls,
>> > THAT is a sin.  But if my friend who is lesbian went
>> to sleep with the
>> > equally lesbian girlfriend, it is not a sin.  We must
>> love everybody
>> > unconditionally, and we must not say that they are
>> committing a sin
>> > unless they really are and have the brain chemicals
>> made up so that
>> > they are attracted to someone of the opposite sex.  I
>> am attracted to
>> > menh, so if I went to sleep with my college roommate,
>> for instance,
>> > that would be a in in itself.  I am blind, and if I
>> married a blind
>> > man, that would be fine.  But the way this country and
>> the bible seems
>> > to be interpreted, homosexuality would be stomped out
>> and next will be
>> > blindness.  Before we know it, our listservs will be
>> in jeopardy, an
>> > then, we wouldn't be able to marry, write, read,
>> go to college, and if
>> > the Terrorists get our country, and that is if Barack
>> Obama's not
>> > watching over us, we will be wearing veils if
>> we're female.  I for one
>> > do not want any ore arguments about homosexuality to
>> ever pop up again
>> > on this listserv.  I want to play it straight: it may
>> be a sin, but
>> > unfortunately, nobody understands the homosexual
>> cannot be changed if
>> > they are truly homosexual.  I understand my friends,
>> and they are good
>> > people.  They are going to college and they are going
>> to be band and
>> > chorus teachers.  Do you people thin that these girls
>> I'm friends with
>> > shouldn't be band and chorus teachers to young
>> children because they
>> > are homosexuals?  According to the weird article I
>> read, yes.  But I'd
>> > hire them any time.
>> > Anyway, that's my soap box for today.
>> > Beth
>> >
>> > On 11/9/08, Frank Lordi
>> <timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >> you are speakin gof the concept of 'blood
>> guilt'?
>> >>
>> >> This so often brought grief to Isreal, no?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --- On Sun, 11/9/08, Corey Cook
>> <ccook01 at knology.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> From: Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net>
>> >>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>> >>> To: "Faith-talk, for the discussion of
>> faith and religion"
>> >>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> >>> Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 8:44 PM
>> >>> Homosexuality is sin.
>> >>> Read Romans 1
>> >>> read first Corinthians 6
>> >>> Yes we need to love them just as we love all
>> sinners, but
>> >>> it is time to call it what it is, and that is
>> sin!
>> >>> It is a sin that will be the end of this
>> country if we
>> >>> allow it to be accepted and embraced.
>> >>> Not a popular thought, but a true one.
>> >>>
>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan
>> Wheeler"
>> >>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
>> >>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of
>> faith and
>> >>> religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> >>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 6:29 PM
>> >>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> > Never mind.  I keep telling you it is
>> called a sin in
>> >>> the bible...if you don't want to believe
>> that God calls
>> >>> it a sin, I can't say anything to sway
>> you.
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > +-+-+-
>> >>> >
>> >>> >   There is none holy as the LORD: for
>> there is none
>> >>> beside thee: neither is there any rock like
>> our God.
>> >>> > 1 Samuel 2:2
>> >>> > ~~~
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Alan D Wheeler
>> >>> > awheeler at neb.rr.com
>> >>> > IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>> >>> > Skype: redwheel1
>> >>> > Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM
>> to 1 PM
>> >>> eastern time at www.theqonline.net
>> >>> >
>> >>> > ----- Original Message ----- From:
>> "Beth"
>> >>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> >>> > To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion
>> of faith and
>> >>> religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> >>> > Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 2:41 PM
>> >>> > Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False
>> Accusations
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >> We're talking about a country
>> where not
>> >>> everybody believes in God.  We
>> >>> >> Christians are shoving God down the
>> throats of
>> >>> those who don't know
>> >>> >> him.  We need to pray for the
>> homosexuals and
>> >>> those who are
>> >>> >> experiencing a so-called sin ad we
>> need to be
>> >>> nicer to these people
>> >>> >> for God's own sake.
>> >>> >> Beth
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler
>> >>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>> >>> >>> At the same time, homosexuality
>> is called a
>> >>> sin and abomination by God. So
>> >>> >>> you think we should allow people
>> to continue
>> >>> to sin against God?
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>> +-+-+-
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>>    We know that all things work
>> together for
>> >>> good for those who love God, to
>> >>> >>> those
>> >>> >>> who are called according to his
>> purpose.
>> >>> >>>  Romans 8:28
>> >>> >>> ~~~
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>> Alan D Wheeler
>> >>> >>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>> >>> >>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>> >>> >>> Skype: redwheel1
>> >>> >>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays
>> from 10 AM to 1
>> >>> PM eastern time at
>> >>> >>> www.theqonline.net
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message -----
>> >>> >>> From: "Beth"
>> >>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> >>> >>> To: "Faith-talk,for the
>> discussion of
>> >>> faith and religion"
>> >>> >>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> >>> >>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008
>> 10:44 AM
>> >>> >>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False
>> Accusations
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>>> I would have toagree with
>> Julie.  Marriage
>> >>> is about love, not
>> >>> >>>> procreative reasons only.
>> I've known
>> >>> friends who've gotten married as
>> >>> >>>> nonprocreative peoples.
>> Also, has anybody
>> >>> thought that marriage
>> >>> >>>> should at least be for those
>> that can
>> >>> participate in it as well?
>> >>> >>>> Also, if we have bans on
>> same-sex
>> >>> marriage, think of it this way: we
>> >>> >>>> are forcing religion on the
>> people, which
>> >>> God really doesn't want us
>> >>> >>>> to do.  To be Christ-like is
>> not to shove
>> >>> God down the throats of
>> >>> >>>> those who don't know him,
>> but to
>> >>> spread God's love to them, to let
>> >>> >>>> them be free people.
>> >>> >>>> Beth
>> >>> >>>>
>> >>> >>>> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler
>> >>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>> >>> >>>>> Beth,
>> >>> >>>>> I gently disagree with
>> you.  Marriage
>> >>> was designed by God to be between a
>> >>> >>>>> man and a woman.
>> Don't take issue
>> >>> because I said it.  Study the Bible
>> >>> >>>>> and
>> >>> >>>>> if you still don't
>> like it, then
>> >>> you have to take it up with God.  It was
>> >>> >>>>> His idea to begin with,
>> not man's.
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>> >>>>> +-+-+-
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>    The LORD is my
>> strength and song,
>> >>> and he is become my salvation: he is
>> >>> >>>>> my
>> >>> >>>>> God, and I will prepare
>> him an
>> >>> >>>>>  habitation; my
>> father's God, and
>> >>> I will exalt him.
>> >>> >>>>>  Exodus 15:2
>> >>> >>>>> ~~~
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>> >>>>> Alan D Wheeler
>> >>> >>>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>> >>> >>>>> IM me at:
>> outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>> >>> >>>>> Skype: redwheel1
>> >>> >>>>> Check me out on the Q,
>> Fridays from 10
>> >>> AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>> >>> >>>>> www.theqonline.net
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>> >>>>> ----- Original Message
>> -----
>> >>> >>>>> From: "Beth"
>> >>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> >>> >>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for
>> the
>> >>> discussion of faith and religion"
>> >>> >>>>>
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> >>> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, November
>> 09, 2008 7:29
>> >>> AM
>> >>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk]
>> False
>> >>> Accusations
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>> I don't care if
>> Obama's
>> >>> half-black.  God's people will come to
>> >>> >>>>>> understand a few
>> things:
>> >>> >>>>>> 1. Marriage, for
>> example, is not
>> >>> between "one man and one woman".  It
>> >>> >>>>>> is between two able
>> parties, same
>> >>> o different sex, that are actually
>> >>> >>>>>> willing to stay
>> together.  Our
>> >>> high divorce rate of heterosexual
>> >>> >>>>>> couples mostly is bad
>> for our
>> >>> children herein America.
>> >>> >>>>>> 2. Abortion should
>> never happen.
>> >>> If it's something that has to do
>> >>> >>>>>> with the mother's
>> life and
>> >>> health, then that's the only exception.
>> >>> >>>>>> But rape and birth
>> control reasons
>> >>> are not good ones.
>> >>> >>>>>> 3. Blind people can
>> and wwill have
>> >>> equal rights to vote, gain security
>> >>> >>>>>> benefits, and so on.
>> Yes,
>> >>> Obama's the most liberal, but we need him.
>> >>> >>>>>> Maybe he's a lot
>> more
>> >>> Christian than Bush was.  But God's people
>> must
>> >>> >>>>>> not be against him.
>> I'm a
>> >>> Catholic, and I'm also a liberal as well.
>> >>> >>>>>> Obama has also beat
>> Kennedy by so
>> >>> many years.  ANything having to do
>> >>> >>>>>> with race is out as
>> far as I'm
>> >>> concerned.  Next, what will happen when
>> >>> >>>>>> a woman is in the
>> White House?
>> >>> What about a blind woman? lol
>> >>> >>>>>> Beth
>> >>> >>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>> On 11/8/08, Linda
>> Mentink
>> >>> <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
>> >>> >>>>>>> Hi Julie,
>> >>> >>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>> I'm sorry,
>> too.  I'm
>> >>> not against our president elect because
>> he's
>> >>> >>>>>>> black.  Fact is,
>> he's half
>> >>> black.  That's neither here nor
>> >>> >>>>>>> there.  It's
>> mainly
>> >>> because he's the most liberal of all in
>> Congress,
>> >>> >>>>>>> and I believe
>> that a lot of
>> >>> our rights will be taken away once he is
>> >>> >>>>>>> sworn in.
>> We'll see what
>> >>> happens, but I'm praying for him, and all
>> >>> >>>>>>> the rest in
>> authority over us.
>> >>>  I sent those things to you because I
>> >>> >>>>>>> knew you
>> wouldn't find out
>> >>> from the mainstream media.  But the
>> >>> >>>>>>> election has made
>> history, and
>> >>> God's people need to be more vigilent
>> >>> >>>>>>> than
>> >>> >>>>>>> ever.
>> >>> >>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>> Blessings,
>> >>> >>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>> Linda
>> >>> >>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>> At 03:33 PM
>> 11/8/2008, you
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>> >>>>>>>> It happened
>> by accident.
>> >>> When you didn't stop attacking in my
>> >>> >>>>>>>> in-box--those
>> of you who
>> >>> did it--people of other races by way of our
>> >>> >>>>>>>> new
>> President-elect, I
>> >>> wrote what I wrote.  Now you know how false
>> >>> >>>>>>>> accusations
>> hurt
>> >>> everybody.  Because of one man the
>> African-American
>> >>> >>>>>>>> Church, and
>> people who
>> >>> attend them, have been under tremendous
>> >>> >>>>>>>> attack ever
>> since last
>> >>> March with no let-up.  Ever since I began
>> >>> >>>>>>>> attending and
>> became saved
>> >>> in African-American churches in 1972,
>> >>> >>>>>>>> I've
>> heard dirty,
>> >>> dirty comments like:  "they just do in
>> their
>> >>> >>>>>>>> church what
>> they did in
>> >>> the slave days."  In the slave days,
>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>> African-Americans
>> >>> weren't permitted to know anything of the
>> Bible
>> >>> >>>>>>>> but
>> "Servants obey
>> >>> your masters in the Lord for this is right.
>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>> If people say
>> what people
>> >>> have said about one another's churches
>> >>> >>>>>>>> ever since
>> last March,
>> >>> referring to us as blind people, we'd be
>> up
>> >>> >>>>>>>> in arms.  Let
>> us all be
>> >>> more careful.
>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>> It hit me
>> like a
>> >>> thunderbolt while I was playing piano at a
>> senior
>> >>> >>>>>>>> citizens
>> building today
>> >>> why you all were upset.  And as upset as you
>> >>> >>>>>>>> were last
>> Thursday night,
>> >>> Linda, I was that upset one month ago when
>> >>> >>>>>>>> I read what
>> you
>> >>> particularly sent me privately at 5:00 on a
>> Sunday
>> >>> >>>>>>>> morning while
>>  I was
>> >>> getting ready for church.  I'm sorry and
>> maybe
>> >>> >>>>>>>> we can
>> understand one
>> >>> another better now.
>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>>  has been
>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>> "Loyalty
>> to petrified
>> >>> opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a
>> >>> >>>>>>>> human
>> soul," American
>> >>> Humorist Mark Twain
>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>> "An
>> attack on one of
>> >>> us is an attack on all of us," Dr.
>> Kenneth
>> >>> >>>>>>>> Jernigan,
>> Immediate Past
>> >>> President, National Federation of the Blind
>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>> "A
>> brother offended
>> >>> is harder to be won than a strong city: and
>> >>> >>>>>>>> their
>> contentions are like
>> >>> the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19.
>> KJV
>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>> "Faith
>> is the ability
>> >>> to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>> "No one
>> can do it for
>> >>> us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation
>> Push,
>> >>> >>>>>>>> 1976.
>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>> "With
>> proper
>> >>> training, development, and opportunity,
>> blindness can
>> >>> >>>>>>>> be reduced to
>> the level of
>> >>> a physical nuisance or characteristic,"
>> >>> >>>>>>>> the Late Dr.
>> Kenneth
>> >>> Jernigan, Past President, National Federation
>> >>> >>>>>>>> of the Blind.
>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>> Julie Vogt or
>> >>> jcvogt at pressenter.com
>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> >>>>>>>> Faith-talk
>> mailing list
>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> >>> >>>>>>>> To
>> unsubscribe, change
>> >>> your list options or get your account info
>> >>> >>>>>>>> for
>> Faith-talk:
>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net
>> >>> >>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> >>>>>>> Faith-talk
>> mailing list
>> >>> >>>>>>>
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> >>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe,
>> change your
>> >>> list options or get your account info for
>> >>> >>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>> >>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>> >>> >>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>
>> >>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> >>>>>> Faith-talk mailing
>> list
>> >>> >>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >>> >>>>>>
>> >>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> >>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe,
>> change your list
>> >>> options or get your account info for
>> >>> >>>>>> Faith-talk:
>> >>> >>>>>>
>> >>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>> >>>>> No virus found in this
>> incoming
>> >>> message.
>> >>> >>>>> Checked by AVG -
>> http://www.avg.com
>> >>> >>>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus
>> Database:
>> >>> 270.9.0/1776 - Release Date: 11/8/2008
>> >>> >>>>> 6:49 PM
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> >>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> >>> >>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> >>> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change
>> your list
>> >>> options or get your account info for
>> >>> >>>>> Faith-talk:
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>> >>>>
>> >>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> >>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> >>> >>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> >>> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your
>> list options
>> >>> or get your account info for
>> >>> >>>> Faith-talk:
>> >>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>>
>> >>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>> No virus found in this incoming
>> message.
>> >>> >>> Checked by AVG -
>> http://www.avg.com
>> >>> >>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus
>> Database:
>> >>> 270.9.0/1778 - Release Date: 11/9/2008
>> >>> >>> 2:14 PM
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>>
>> >>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> >>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> >>> >>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >>> >>>
>> >>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list
>> options or
>> >>> get your account info for
>> >>> >>> Faith-talk:
>> >>> >>>
>> >>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> >> Faith-talk mailing list
>> >>> >> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >>> >>
>> >>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> >>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list
>> options or get
>> >>> your account info for Faith-talk:
>> >>> >>
>> >>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > No virus found in this incoming message.
>> >>> > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>> >>> > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database:
>> 270.9.0/1778 -
>> >>> Release Date: 11/9/2008 2:14 PM
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> > Faith-talk mailing list
>> >>> > Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >>> >
>> >>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options
>> or get your
>> >>> account info for Faith-talk:
>> >>> >
>> >>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>> >>> >
>> >>> Corey Cook
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> >>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or
>> get your
>> >>> account info for Faith-talk:
>> >>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/timber_wolf899%40yahoo.com
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Faith-talk mailing list
>> >> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get
>> your account info for
>> >> Faith-talk:
>> >>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>> >>
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Faith-talk mailing list
>> > Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>> account info for
>> > Faith-talk:
>> >
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/lynnwhite51%40sbcglobal.net
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>> account info for Faith-talk:
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>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
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>
Corey Cook 




From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Mon Nov 10 06:03:46 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 01:03:46 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
In-Reply-To: <B8FA7640775C4FDE80497B65B4DB0E43@TheCooksPC>
References: <579159.68070.qm@web51906.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<B8FA7640775C4FDE80497B65B4DB0E43@TheCooksPC>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811092203o615e736fh19eb8d239fd9a81e@mail.gmail.com>

ROTFL! What a joke!
Beth

On 11/10/08, Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net> wrote:
> Well siad Frank
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Frank Lordi" <timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 11:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>
>
>> The bible clearly states that homosexual sex is an abomination.
>>
>> This is one of the hardest things about believing.  We must submit to
>> God's law.  We are 'a stif fnecked people' so this is difficult but we
>> must do it.  We need not understand, we need not agree, but we must obey.
>> Our Lord says those are his friends who keep his commands.  So if we want
>> to be his friend, we must accept among other things, that homosexual sex
>> is a sin.
>>
>> Perhaps it will help to look at it this way.  I like women a great deal.
>> I cannot stop liking women.  Often times i 'want' badly to have relations
>> with said women, but God's law says no, so i must follow this or accept
>> the wages of sin.
>>
>> The same goes for homosexuals, for cleptomaniacs, for the greedy, the
>> hopeless, etc.  We all have our crosses to carry, our temptations to
>> resist.
>>
>> --- On Sun, 11/9/08, BMW <lynnwhite51 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> From: BMW <lynnwhite51 at sbcglobal.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>> To: "Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 10:49 PM
>>> Beth, sex outside of the relationship between a husband and
>>> wife is a sin.
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>> To: <timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com>; "Faith-talk,for
>>> the discussion of faith and
>>> religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 9:12 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>
>>>
>>> > Okay, if homosexuality is a sin, guess what?  What
>>> about the
>>> > homosexuals who have homosexual relations with each
>>> other and cannot
>>> > be attracted to opposite sex members?  I again may
>>> mention that I have
>>> > friends who are gay/lesbian.  And I am pleased with
>>> Obama in the white
>>> > house.  God knows what's best, and I believe in a
>>> God who loves all,
>>> > and God knows that homosexuality is a sin, but it is a
>>> sin between
>>> > those who can physically have someone of the opposite
>>> sex along with
>>> > being attracted with someone of the opposite sex.
>>> Take my
>>> > ex-boyfriend for instance.  He likes women, but if he
>>> went to sleep
>>> > with a young college friend of mine who I know is
>>> attracted to girls,
>>> > THAT is a sin.  But if my friend who is lesbian went
>>> to sleep with the
>>> > equally lesbian girlfriend, it is not a sin.  We must
>>> love everybody
>>> > unconditionally, and we must not say that they are
>>> committing a sin
>>> > unless they really are and have the brain chemicals
>>> made up so that
>>> > they are attracted to someone of the opposite sex.  I
>>> am attracted to
>>> > menh, so if I went to sleep with my college roommate,
>>> for instance,
>>> > that would be a in in itself.  I am blind, and if I
>>> married a blind
>>> > man, that would be fine.  But the way this country and
>>> the bible seems
>>> > to be interpreted, homosexuality would be stomped out
>>> and next will be
>>> > blindness.  Before we know it, our listservs will be
>>> in jeopardy, an
>>> > then, we wouldn't be able to marry, write, read,
>>> go to college, and if
>>> > the Terrorists get our country, and that is if Barack
>>> Obama's not
>>> > watching over us, we will be wearing veils if
>>> we're female.  I for one
>>> > do not want any ore arguments about homosexuality to
>>> ever pop up again
>>> > on this listserv.  I want to play it straight: it may
>>> be a sin, but
>>> > unfortunately, nobody understands the homosexual
>>> cannot be changed if
>>> > they are truly homosexual.  I understand my friends,
>>> and they are good
>>> > people.  They are going to college and they are going
>>> to be band and
>>> > chorus teachers.  Do you people thin that these girls
>>> I'm friends with
>>> > shouldn't be band and chorus teachers to young
>>> children because they
>>> > are homosexuals?  According to the weird article I
>>> read, yes.  But I'd
>>> > hire them any time.
>>> > Anyway, that's my soap box for today.
>>> > Beth
>>> >
>>> > On 11/9/08, Frank Lordi
>>> <timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> >> you are speakin gof the concept of 'blood
>>> guilt'?
>>> >>
>>> >> This so often brought grief to Isreal, no?
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> --- On Sun, 11/9/08, Corey Cook
>>> <ccook01 at knology.net> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>> From: Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net>
>>> >>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>> >>> To: "Faith-talk, for the discussion of
>>> faith and religion"
>>> >>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> >>> Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 8:44 PM
>>> >>> Homosexuality is sin.
>>> >>> Read Romans 1
>>> >>> read first Corinthians 6
>>> >>> Yes we need to love them just as we love all
>>> sinners, but
>>> >>> it is time to call it what it is, and that is
>>> sin!
>>> >>> It is a sin that will be the end of this
>>> country if we
>>> >>> allow it to be accepted and embraced.
>>> >>> Not a popular thought, but a true one.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan
>>> Wheeler"
>>> >>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
>>> >>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of
>>> faith and
>>> >>> religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> >>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 6:29 PM
>>> >>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> > Never mind.  I keep telling you it is
>>> called a sin in
>>> >>> the bible...if you don't want to believe
>>> that God calls
>>> >>> it a sin, I can't say anything to sway
>>> you.
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> > +-+-+-
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> >   There is none holy as the LORD: for
>>> there is none
>>> >>> beside thee: neither is there any rock like
>>> our God.
>>> >>> > 1 Samuel 2:2
>>> >>> > ~~~
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> > Alan D Wheeler
>>> >>> > awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>> >>> > IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>> >>> > Skype: redwheel1
>>> >>> > Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM
>>> to 1 PM
>>> >>> eastern time at www.theqonline.net
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> > ----- Original Message ----- From:
>>> "Beth"
>>> >>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>> >>> > To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion
>>> of faith and
>>> >>> religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> >>> > Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 2:41 PM
>>> >>> > Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False
>>> Accusations
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> >> We're talking about a country
>>> where not
>>> >>> everybody believes in God.  We
>>> >>> >> Christians are shoving God down the
>>> throats of
>>> >>> those who don't know
>>> >>> >> him.  We need to pray for the
>>> homosexuals and
>>> >>> those who are
>>> >>> >> experiencing a so-called sin ad we
>>> need to be
>>> >>> nicer to these people
>>> >>> >> for God's own sake.
>>> >>> >> Beth
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler
>>> >>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>> >>> >>> At the same time, homosexuality
>>> is called a
>>> >>> sin and abomination by God. So
>>> >>> >>> you think we should allow people
>>> to continue
>>> >>> to sin against God?
>>> >>> >>>
>>> >>> >>>
>>> >>> >>> +-+-+-
>>> >>> >>>
>>> >>> >>>    We know that all things work
>>> together for
>>> >>> good for those who love God, to
>>> >>> >>> those
>>> >>> >>> who are called according to his
>>> purpose.
>>> >>> >>>  Romans 8:28
>>> >>> >>> ~~~
>>> >>> >>>
>>> >>> >>> Alan D Wheeler
>>> >>> >>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>> >>> >>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>> >>> >>> Skype: redwheel1
>>> >>> >>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays
>>> from 10 AM to 1
>>> >>> PM eastern time at
>>> >>> >>> www.theqonline.net
>>> >>> >>>
>>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> >>> >>> From: "Beth"
>>> >>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>> >>> >>> To: "Faith-talk,for the
>>> discussion of
>>> >>> faith and religion"
>>> >>> >>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> >>> >>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008
>>> 10:44 AM
>>> >>> >>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False
>>> Accusations
>>> >>> >>>
>>> >>> >>>
>>> >>> >>>> I would have toagree with
>>> Julie.  Marriage
>>> >>> is about love, not
>>> >>> >>>> procreative reasons only.
>>> I've known
>>> >>> friends who've gotten married as
>>> >>> >>>> nonprocreative peoples.
>>> Also, has anybody
>>> >>> thought that marriage
>>> >>> >>>> should at least be for those
>>> that can
>>> >>> participate in it as well?
>>> >>> >>>> Also, if we have bans on
>>> same-sex
>>> >>> marriage, think of it this way: we
>>> >>> >>>> are forcing religion on the
>>> people, which
>>> >>> God really doesn't want us
>>> >>> >>>> to do.  To be Christ-like is
>>> not to shove
>>> >>> God down the throats of
>>> >>> >>>> those who don't know him,
>>> but to
>>> >>> spread God's love to them, to let
>>> >>> >>>> them be free people.
>>> >>> >>>> Beth
>>> >>> >>>>
>>> >>> >>>> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler
>>> >>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>> >>> >>>>> Beth,
>>> >>> >>>>> I gently disagree with
>>> you.  Marriage
>>> >>> was designed by God to be between a
>>> >>> >>>>> man and a woman.
>>> Don't take issue
>>> >>> because I said it.  Study the Bible
>>> >>> >>>>> and
>>> >>> >>>>> if you still don't
>>> like it, then
>>> >>> you have to take it up with God.  It was
>>> >>> >>>>> His idea to begin with,
>>> not man's.
>>> >>> >>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>> +-+-+-
>>> >>> >>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>>    The LORD is my
>>> strength and song,
>>> >>> and he is become my salvation: he is
>>> >>> >>>>> my
>>> >>> >>>>> God, and I will prepare
>>> him an
>>> >>> >>>>>  habitation; my
>>> father's God, and
>>> >>> I will exalt him.
>>> >>> >>>>>  Exodus 15:2
>>> >>> >>>>> ~~~
>>> >>> >>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>> >>> >>>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>> >>> >>>>> IM me at:
>>> outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>> >>> >>>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>> >>> >>>>> Check me out on the Q,
>>> Fridays from 10
>>> >>> AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>> >>> >>>>> www.theqonline.net
>>> >>> >>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>> ----- Original Message
>>> -----
>>> >>> >>>>> From: "Beth"
>>> >>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>> >>> >>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for
>>> the
>>> >>> discussion of faith and religion"
>>> >>> >>>>>
>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> >>> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, November
>>> 09, 2008 7:29
>>> >>> AM
>>> >>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk]
>>> False
>>> >>> Accusations
>>> >>> >>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>>> I don't care if
>>> Obama's
>>> >>> half-black.  God's people will come to
>>> >>> >>>>>> understand a few
>>> things:
>>> >>> >>>>>> 1. Marriage, for
>>> example, is not
>>> >>> between "one man and one woman".  It
>>> >>> >>>>>> is between two able
>>> parties, same
>>> >>> o different sex, that are actually
>>> >>> >>>>>> willing to stay
>>> together.  Our
>>> >>> high divorce rate of heterosexual
>>> >>> >>>>>> couples mostly is bad
>>> for our
>>> >>> children herein America.
>>> >>> >>>>>> 2. Abortion should
>>> never happen.
>>> >>> If it's something that has to do
>>> >>> >>>>>> with the mother's
>>> life and
>>> >>> health, then that's the only exception.
>>> >>> >>>>>> But rape and birth
>>> control reasons
>>> >>> are not good ones.
>>> >>> >>>>>> 3. Blind people can
>>> and wwill have
>>> >>> equal rights to vote, gain security
>>> >>> >>>>>> benefits, and so on.
>>> Yes,
>>> >>> Obama's the most liberal, but we need him.
>>> >>> >>>>>> Maybe he's a lot
>>> more
>>> >>> Christian than Bush was.  But God's people
>>> must
>>> >>> >>>>>> not be against him.
>>> I'm a
>>> >>> Catholic, and I'm also a liberal as well.
>>> >>> >>>>>> Obama has also beat
>>> Kennedy by so
>>> >>> many years.  ANything having to do
>>> >>> >>>>>> with race is out as
>>> far as I'm
>>> >>> concerned.  Next, what will happen when
>>> >>> >>>>>> a woman is in the
>>> White House?
>>> >>> What about a blind woman? lol
>>> >>> >>>>>> Beth
>>> >>> >>>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>>> On 11/8/08, Linda
>>> Mentink
>>> >>> <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
>>> >>> >>>>>>> Hi Julie,
>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>>>> I'm sorry,
>>> too.  I'm
>>> >>> not against our president elect because
>>> he's
>>> >>> >>>>>>> black.  Fact is,
>>> he's half
>>> >>> black.  That's neither here nor
>>> >>> >>>>>>> there.  It's
>>> mainly
>>> >>> because he's the most liberal of all in
>>> Congress,
>>> >>> >>>>>>> and I believe
>>> that a lot of
>>> >>> our rights will be taken away once he is
>>> >>> >>>>>>> sworn in.
>>> We'll see what
>>> >>> happens, but I'm praying for him, and all
>>> >>> >>>>>>> the rest in
>>> authority over us.
>>> >>>  I sent those things to you because I
>>> >>> >>>>>>> knew you
>>> wouldn't find out
>>> >>> from the mainstream media.  But the
>>> >>> >>>>>>> election has made
>>> history, and
>>> >>> God's people need to be more vigilent
>>> >>> >>>>>>> than
>>> >>> >>>>>>> ever.
>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>>>> Blessings,
>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>>>> Linda
>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>>>> At 03:33 PM
>>> 11/8/2008, you
>>> >>> wrote:
>>> >>> >>>>>>>> It happened
>>> by accident.
>>> >>> When you didn't stop attacking in my
>>> >>> >>>>>>>> in-box--those
>>> of you who
>>> >>> did it--people of other races by way of our
>>> >>> >>>>>>>> new
>>> President-elect, I
>>> >>> wrote what I wrote.  Now you know how false
>>> >>> >>>>>>>> accusations
>>> hurt
>>> >>> everybody.  Because of one man the
>>> African-American
>>> >>> >>>>>>>> Church, and
>>> people who
>>> >>> attend them, have been under tremendous
>>> >>> >>>>>>>> attack ever
>>> since last
>>> >>> March with no let-up.  Ever since I began
>>> >>> >>>>>>>> attending and
>>> became saved
>>> >>> in African-American churches in 1972,
>>> >>> >>>>>>>> I've
>>> heard dirty,
>>> >>> dirty comments like:  "they just do in
>>> their
>>> >>> >>>>>>>> church what
>>> they did in
>>> >>> the slave days."  In the slave days,
>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>> African-Americans
>>> >>> weren't permitted to know anything of the
>>> Bible
>>> >>> >>>>>>>> but
>>> "Servants obey
>>> >>> your masters in the Lord for this is right.
>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>>>>> If people say
>>> what people
>>> >>> have said about one another's churches
>>> >>> >>>>>>>> ever since
>>> last March,
>>> >>> referring to us as blind people, we'd be
>>> up
>>> >>> >>>>>>>> in arms.  Let
>>> us all be
>>> >>> more careful.
>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>>>>> It hit me
>>> like a
>>> >>> thunderbolt while I was playing piano at a
>>> senior
>>> >>> >>>>>>>> citizens
>>> building today
>>> >>> why you all were upset.  And as upset as you
>>> >>> >>>>>>>> were last
>>> Thursday night,
>>> >>> Linda, I was that upset one month ago when
>>> >>> >>>>>>>> I read what
>>> you
>>> >>> particularly sent me privately at 5:00 on a
>>> Sunday
>>> >>> >>>>>>>> morning while
>>>  I was
>>> >>> getting ready for church.  I'm sorry and
>>> maybe
>>> >>> >>>>>>>> we can
>>> understand one
>>> >>> another better now.
>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>>>>>  has been
>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>>>>> "Loyalty
>>> to petrified
>>> >>> opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a
>>> >>> >>>>>>>> human
>>> soul," American
>>> >>> Humorist Mark Twain
>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>>>>> "An
>>> attack on one of
>>> >>> us is an attack on all of us," Dr.
>>> Kenneth
>>> >>> >>>>>>>> Jernigan,
>>> Immediate Past
>>> >>> President, National Federation of the Blind
>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>>>>> "A
>>> brother offended
>>> >>> is harder to be won than a strong city: and
>>> >>> >>>>>>>> their
>>> contentions are like
>>> >>> the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19.
>>> KJV
>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>>>>> "Faith
>>> is the ability
>>> >>> to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>>>>> "No one
>>> can do it for
>>> >>> us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation
>>> Push,
>>> >>> >>>>>>>> 1976.
>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>>>>> "With
>>> proper
>>> >>> training, development, and opportunity,
>>> blindness can
>>> >>> >>>>>>>> be reduced to
>>> the level of
>>> >>> a physical nuisance or characteristic,"
>>> >>> >>>>>>>> the Late Dr.
>>> Kenneth
>>> >>> Jernigan, Past President, National Federation
>>> >>> >>>>>>>> of the Blind.
>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>>>>> Julie Vogt or
>>> >>> jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>> >>>>>>>> Faith-talk
>>> mailing list
>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> >>> >>>>>>>> To
>>> unsubscribe, change
>>> >>> your list options or get your account info
>>> >>> >>>>>>>> for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net
>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>> >>>>>>> Faith-talk
>>> mailing list
>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> >>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe,
>>> change your
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>>> >>> >>>>>>> Faith-talk:
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>>> >>>
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>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>> >>>>>> Faith-talk mailing
>>> list
>>> >>> >>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> >>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> >>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe,
>>> change your list
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>>> >>> >>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>> >>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>> >>> >>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>>
>>> >>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >>> >>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>> No virus found in this
>>> incoming
>>> >>> message.
>>> >>> >>>>> Checked by AVG -
>>> http://www.avg.com
>>> >>> >>>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus
>>> Database:
>>> >>> 270.9.0/1776 - Release Date: 11/8/2008
>>> >>> >>>>> 6:49 PM
>>> >>> >>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>>
>>> >>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>> >>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> >>> >>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> >>> >>>>>
>>> >>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
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>>> >>> >>>>> Faith-talk:
>>> >>> >>>>>
>>> >>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>> >>> >>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>
>>> >>> >>>>
>>> >>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>> >>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> >>> >>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> >>> >>>>
>>> >>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
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>>> list options
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>>> >>> >>>> Faith-talk:
>>> >>> >>>>
>>> >>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>> >>> >>>
>>> >>> >>>
>>> >>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >>> >>>
>>> >>> >>>
>>> >>> >>>
>>> >>> >>> No virus found in this incoming
>>> message.
>>> >>> >>> Checked by AVG -
>>> http://www.avg.com
>>> >>> >>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus
>>> Database:
>>> >>> 270.9.0/1778 - Release Date: 11/9/2008
>>> >>> >>> 2:14 PM
>>> >>> >>>
>>> >>> >>>
>>> >>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>> >>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> >>> >>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> >>> >>>
>>> >>>
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>>> >>> >>> Faith-talk:
>>> >>> >>>
>>> >>>
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>>> >>> >>>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>> >> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> >>> >> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> >>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list
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>>> >>> >>
>>> >>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> >
>>> >>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> > No virus found in this incoming message.
>>> >>> > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>> >>> > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database:
>>> 270.9.0/1778 -
>>> >>> Release Date: 11/9/2008 2:14 PM
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> >
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>> > Faith-talk mailing list
>>> >>> > Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> >>> >
>>> >>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options
>>> or get your
>>> >>> account info for Faith-talk:
>>> >>> >
>>> >>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> Corey Cook
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> >>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> >>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or
>>> get your
>>> >>> account info for Faith-talk:
>>> >>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/timber_wolf899%40yahoo.com
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> >> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> >>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get
>>> your account info for
>>> >> Faith-talk:
>>> >>
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>>> >>
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Faith-talk mailing list
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>>> >
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>> account info for
>>> > Faith-talk:
>>> >
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/lynnwhite51%40sbcglobal.net
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
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>>
> Corey Cook
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
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>



From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Mon Nov 10 06:07:18 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 01:07:18 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
In-Reply-To: <4383d01d0811092203o615e736fh19eb8d239fd9a81e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <579159.68070.qm@web51906.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
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Message-ID: <4383d01d0811092207g26921e5mcef163ce40090faa@mail.gmail.com>

Okay, please don't compare my friends in college to drunks and liars.
They are who they are and they're different people, so please.  Just
... pleeeeeeeeze don't compare them to anythng less than what they
are: people.
Beth

On 11/10/08, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
> ROTFL! What a joke!
> Beth
>
> On 11/10/08, Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net> wrote:
>> Well siad Frank
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Frank Lordi" <timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com>
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 11:02 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>
>>
>>> The bible clearly states that homosexual sex is an abomination.
>>>
>>> This is one of the hardest things about believing.  We must submit to
>>> God's law.  We are 'a stif fnecked people' so this is difficult but we
>>> must do it.  We need not understand, we need not agree, but we must obey.
>>> Our Lord says those are his friends who keep his commands.  So if we want
>>> to be his friend, we must accept among other things, that homosexual sex
>>> is a sin.
>>>
>>> Perhaps it will help to look at it this way.  I like women a great deal.
>>> I cannot stop liking women.  Often times i 'want' badly to have relations
>>> with said women, but God's law says no, so i must follow this or accept
>>> the wages of sin.
>>>
>>> The same goes for homosexuals, for cleptomaniacs, for the greedy, the
>>> hopeless, etc.  We all have our crosses to carry, our temptations to
>>> resist.
>>>
>>> --- On Sun, 11/9/08, BMW <lynnwhite51 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> From: BMW <lynnwhite51 at sbcglobal.net>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>> To: "Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 10:49 PM
>>>> Beth, sex outside of the relationship between a husband and
>>>> wife is a sin.
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>> To: <timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com>; "Faith-talk,for
>>>> the discussion of faith and
>>>> religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 9:12 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > Okay, if homosexuality is a sin, guess what?  What
>>>> about the
>>>> > homosexuals who have homosexual relations with each
>>>> other and cannot
>>>> > be attracted to opposite sex members?  I again may
>>>> mention that I have
>>>> > friends who are gay/lesbian.  And I am pleased with
>>>> Obama in the white
>>>> > house.  God knows what's best, and I believe in a
>>>> God who loves all,
>>>> > and God knows that homosexuality is a sin, but it is a
>>>> sin between
>>>> > those who can physically have someone of the opposite
>>>> sex along with
>>>> > being attracted with someone of the opposite sex.
>>>> Take my
>>>> > ex-boyfriend for instance.  He likes women, but if he
>>>> went to sleep
>>>> > with a young college friend of mine who I know is
>>>> attracted to girls,
>>>> > THAT is a sin.  But if my friend who is lesbian went
>>>> to sleep with the
>>>> > equally lesbian girlfriend, it is not a sin.  We must
>>>> love everybody
>>>> > unconditionally, and we must not say that they are
>>>> committing a sin
>>>> > unless they really are and have the brain chemicals
>>>> made up so that
>>>> > they are attracted to someone of the opposite sex.  I
>>>> am attracted to
>>>> > menh, so if I went to sleep with my college roommate,
>>>> for instance,
>>>> > that would be a in in itself.  I am blind, and if I
>>>> married a blind
>>>> > man, that would be fine.  But the way this country and
>>>> the bible seems
>>>> > to be interpreted, homosexuality would be stomped out
>>>> and next will be
>>>> > blindness.  Before we know it, our listservs will be
>>>> in jeopardy, an
>>>> > then, we wouldn't be able to marry, write, read,
>>>> go to college, and if
>>>> > the Terrorists get our country, and that is if Barack
>>>> Obama's not
>>>> > watching over us, we will be wearing veils if
>>>> we're female.  I for one
>>>> > do not want any ore arguments about homosexuality to
>>>> ever pop up again
>>>> > on this listserv.  I want to play it straight: it may
>>>> be a sin, but
>>>> > unfortunately, nobody understands the homosexual
>>>> cannot be changed if
>>>> > they are truly homosexual.  I understand my friends,
>>>> and they are good
>>>> > people.  They are going to college and they are going
>>>> to be band and
>>>> > chorus teachers.  Do you people thin that these girls
>>>> I'm friends with
>>>> > shouldn't be band and chorus teachers to young
>>>> children because they
>>>> > are homosexuals?  According to the weird article I
>>>> read, yes.  But I'd
>>>> > hire them any time.
>>>> > Anyway, that's my soap box for today.
>>>> > Beth
>>>> >
>>>> > On 11/9/08, Frank Lordi
>>>> <timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> >> you are speakin gof the concept of 'blood
>>>> guilt'?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> This so often brought grief to Isreal, no?
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> --- On Sun, 11/9/08, Corey Cook
>>>> <ccook01 at knology.net> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> From: Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net>
>>>> >>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>> >>> To: "Faith-talk, for the discussion of
>>>> faith and religion"
>>>> >>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> >>> Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 8:44 PM
>>>> >>> Homosexuality is sin.
>>>> >>> Read Romans 1
>>>> >>> read first Corinthians 6
>>>> >>> Yes we need to love them just as we love all
>>>> sinners, but
>>>> >>> it is time to call it what it is, and that is
>>>> sin!
>>>> >>> It is a sin that will be the end of this
>>>> country if we
>>>> >>> allow it to be accepted and embraced.
>>>> >>> Not a popular thought, but a true one.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan
>>>> Wheeler"
>>>> >>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
>>>> >>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of
>>>> faith and
>>>> >>> religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> >>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 6:29 PM
>>>> >>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> > Never mind.  I keep telling you it is
>>>> called a sin in
>>>> >>> the bible...if you don't want to believe
>>>> that God calls
>>>> >>> it a sin, I can't say anything to sway
>>>> you.
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> > +-+-+-
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >   There is none holy as the LORD: for
>>>> there is none
>>>> >>> beside thee: neither is there any rock like
>>>> our God.
>>>> >>> > 1 Samuel 2:2
>>>> >>> > ~~~
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> > Alan D Wheeler
>>>> >>> > awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>> >>> > IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>> >>> > Skype: redwheel1
>>>> >>> > Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM
>>>> to 1 PM
>>>> >>> eastern time at www.theqonline.net
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> > ----- Original Message ----- From:
>>>> "Beth"
>>>> >>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>> >>> > To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion
>>>> of faith and
>>>> >>> religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> >>> > Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 2:41 PM
>>>> >>> > Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False
>>>> Accusations
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >> We're talking about a country
>>>> where not
>>>> >>> everybody believes in God.  We
>>>> >>> >> Christians are shoving God down the
>>>> throats of
>>>> >>> those who don't know
>>>> >>> >> him.  We need to pray for the
>>>> homosexuals and
>>>> >>> those who are
>>>> >>> >> experiencing a so-called sin ad we
>>>> need to be
>>>> >>> nicer to these people
>>>> >>> >> for God's own sake.
>>>> >>> >> Beth
>>>> >>> >>
>>>> >>> >> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler
>>>> >>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>>> >>> >>> At the same time, homosexuality
>>>> is called a
>>>> >>> sin and abomination by God. So
>>>> >>> >>> you think we should allow people
>>>> to continue
>>>> >>> to sin against God?
>>>> >>> >>>
>>>> >>> >>>
>>>> >>> >>> +-+-+-
>>>> >>> >>>
>>>> >>> >>>    We know that all things work
>>>> together for
>>>> >>> good for those who love God, to
>>>> >>> >>> those
>>>> >>> >>> who are called according to his
>>>> purpose.
>>>> >>> >>>  Romans 8:28
>>>> >>> >>> ~~~
>>>> >>> >>>
>>>> >>> >>> Alan D Wheeler
>>>> >>> >>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>> >>> >>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>> >>> >>> Skype: redwheel1
>>>> >>> >>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays
>>>> from 10 AM to 1
>>>> >>> PM eastern time at
>>>> >>> >>> www.theqonline.net
>>>> >>> >>>
>>>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> >>> >>> From: "Beth"
>>>> >>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>> >>> >>> To: "Faith-talk,for the
>>>> discussion of
>>>> >>> faith and religion"
>>>> >>> >>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> >>> >>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008
>>>> 10:44 AM
>>>> >>> >>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False
>>>> Accusations
>>>> >>> >>>
>>>> >>> >>>
>>>> >>> >>>> I would have toagree with
>>>> Julie.  Marriage
>>>> >>> is about love, not
>>>> >>> >>>> procreative reasons only.
>>>> I've known
>>>> >>> friends who've gotten married as
>>>> >>> >>>> nonprocreative peoples.
>>>> Also, has anybody
>>>> >>> thought that marriage
>>>> >>> >>>> should at least be for those
>>>> that can
>>>> >>> participate in it as well?
>>>> >>> >>>> Also, if we have bans on
>>>> same-sex
>>>> >>> marriage, think of it this way: we
>>>> >>> >>>> are forcing religion on the
>>>> people, which
>>>> >>> God really doesn't want us
>>>> >>> >>>> to do.  To be Christ-like is
>>>> not to shove
>>>> >>> God down the throats of
>>>> >>> >>>> those who don't know him,
>>>> but to
>>>> >>> spread God's love to them, to let
>>>> >>> >>>> them be free people.
>>>> >>> >>>> Beth
>>>> >>> >>>>
>>>> >>> >>>> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler
>>>> >>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>>> >>> >>>>> Beth,
>>>> >>> >>>>> I gently disagree with
>>>> you.  Marriage
>>>> >>> was designed by God to be between a
>>>> >>> >>>>> man and a woman.
>>>> Don't take issue
>>>> >>> because I said it.  Study the Bible
>>>> >>> >>>>> and
>>>> >>> >>>>> if you still don't
>>>> like it, then
>>>> >>> you have to take it up with God.  It was
>>>> >>> >>>>> His idea to begin with,
>>>> not man's.
>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>> +-+-+-
>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>    The LORD is my
>>>> strength and song,
>>>> >>> and he is become my salvation: he is
>>>> >>> >>>>> my
>>>> >>> >>>>> God, and I will prepare
>>>> him an
>>>> >>> >>>>>  habitation; my
>>>> father's God, and
>>>> >>> I will exalt him.
>>>> >>> >>>>>  Exodus 15:2
>>>> >>> >>>>> ~~~
>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>>> >>> >>>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>> >>> >>>>> IM me at:
>>>> outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>> >>> >>>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>>> >>> >>>>> Check me out on the Q,
>>>> Fridays from 10
>>>> >>> AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>>> >>> >>>>> www.theqonline.net
>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>> ----- Original Message
>>>> -----
>>>> >>> >>>>> From: "Beth"
>>>> >>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>> >>> >>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for
>>>> the
>>>> >>> discussion of faith and religion"
>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> >>> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, November
>>>> 09, 2008 7:29
>>>> >>> AM
>>>> >>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk]
>>>> False
>>>> >>> Accusations
>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>> I don't care if
>>>> Obama's
>>>> >>> half-black.  God's people will come to
>>>> >>> >>>>>> understand a few
>>>> things:
>>>> >>> >>>>>> 1. Marriage, for
>>>> example, is not
>>>> >>> between "one man and one woman".  It
>>>> >>> >>>>>> is between two able
>>>> parties, same
>>>> >>> o different sex, that are actually
>>>> >>> >>>>>> willing to stay
>>>> together.  Our
>>>> >>> high divorce rate of heterosexual
>>>> >>> >>>>>> couples mostly is bad
>>>> for our
>>>> >>> children herein America.
>>>> >>> >>>>>> 2. Abortion should
>>>> never happen.
>>>> >>> If it's something that has to do
>>>> >>> >>>>>> with the mother's
>>>> life and
>>>> >>> health, then that's the only exception.
>>>> >>> >>>>>> But rape and birth
>>>> control reasons
>>>> >>> are not good ones.
>>>> >>> >>>>>> 3. Blind people can
>>>> and wwill have
>>>> >>> equal rights to vote, gain security
>>>> >>> >>>>>> benefits, and so on.
>>>> Yes,
>>>> >>> Obama's the most liberal, but we need him.
>>>> >>> >>>>>> Maybe he's a lot
>>>> more
>>>> >>> Christian than Bush was.  But God's people
>>>> must
>>>> >>> >>>>>> not be against him.
>>>> I'm a
>>>> >>> Catholic, and I'm also a liberal as well.
>>>> >>> >>>>>> Obama has also beat
>>>> Kennedy by so
>>>> >>> many years.  ANything having to do
>>>> >>> >>>>>> with race is out as
>>>> far as I'm
>>>> >>> concerned.  Next, what will happen when
>>>> >>> >>>>>> a woman is in the
>>>> White House?
>>>> >>> What about a blind woman? lol
>>>> >>> >>>>>> Beth
>>>> >>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>> On 11/8/08, Linda
>>>> Mentink
>>>> >>> <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
>>>> >>> >>>>>>> Hi Julie,
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>> I'm sorry,
>>>> too.  I'm
>>>> >>> not against our president elect because
>>>> he's
>>>> >>> >>>>>>> black.  Fact is,
>>>> he's half
>>>> >>> black.  That's neither here nor
>>>> >>> >>>>>>> there.  It's
>>>> mainly
>>>> >>> because he's the most liberal of all in
>>>> Congress,
>>>> >>> >>>>>>> and I believe
>>>> that a lot of
>>>> >>> our rights will be taken away once he is
>>>> >>> >>>>>>> sworn in.
>>>> We'll see what
>>>> >>> happens, but I'm praying for him, and all
>>>> >>> >>>>>>> the rest in
>>>> authority over us.
>>>> >>>  I sent those things to you because I
>>>> >>> >>>>>>> knew you
>>>> wouldn't find out
>>>> >>> from the mainstream media.  But the
>>>> >>> >>>>>>> election has made
>>>> history, and
>>>> >>> God's people need to be more vigilent
>>>> >>> >>>>>>> than
>>>> >>> >>>>>>> ever.
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>> Blessings,
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>> Linda
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>> At 03:33 PM
>>>> 11/8/2008, you
>>>> >>> wrote:
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> It happened
>>>> by accident.
>>>> >>> When you didn't stop attacking in my
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> in-box--those
>>>> of you who
>>>> >>> did it--people of other races by way of our
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> new
>>>> President-elect, I
>>>> >>> wrote what I wrote.  Now you know how false
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> accusations
>>>> hurt
>>>> >>> everybody.  Because of one man the
>>>> African-American
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> Church, and
>>>> people who
>>>> >>> attend them, have been under tremendous
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> attack ever
>>>> since last
>>>> >>> March with no let-up.  Ever since I began
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> attending and
>>>> became saved
>>>> >>> in African-American churches in 1972,
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> I've
>>>> heard dirty,
>>>> >>> dirty comments like:  "they just do in
>>>> their
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> church what
>>>> they did in
>>>> >>> the slave days."  In the slave days,
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> African-Americans
>>>> >>> weren't permitted to know anything of the
>>>> Bible
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> but
>>>> "Servants obey
>>>> >>> your masters in the Lord for this is right.
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> If people say
>>>> what people
>>>> >>> have said about one another's churches
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> ever since
>>>> last March,
>>>> >>> referring to us as blind people, we'd be
>>>> up
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> in arms.  Let
>>>> us all be
>>>> >>> more careful.
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> It hit me
>>>> like a
>>>> >>> thunderbolt while I was playing piano at a
>>>> senior
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> citizens
>>>> building today
>>>> >>> why you all were upset.  And as upset as you
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> were last
>>>> Thursday night,
>>>> >>> Linda, I was that upset one month ago when
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> I read what
>>>> you
>>>> >>> particularly sent me privately at 5:00 on a
>>>> Sunday
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> morning while
>>>>  I was
>>>> >>> getting ready for church.  I'm sorry and
>>>> maybe
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> we can
>>>> understand one
>>>> >>> another better now.
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>  has been
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> "Loyalty
>>>> to petrified
>>>> >>> opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> human
>>>> soul," American
>>>> >>> Humorist Mark Twain
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> "An
>>>> attack on one of
>>>> >>> us is an attack on all of us," Dr.
>>>> Kenneth
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> Jernigan,
>>>> Immediate Past
>>>> >>> President, National Federation of the Blind
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> "A
>>>> brother offended
>>>> >>> is harder to be won than a strong city: and
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> their
>>>> contentions are like
>>>> >>> the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19.
>>>> KJV
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> "Faith
>>>> is the ability
>>>> >>> to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> "No one
>>>> can do it for
>>>> >>> us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation
>>>> Push,
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> 1976.
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> "With
>>>> proper
>>>> >>> training, development, and opportunity,
>>>> blindness can
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> be reduced to
>>>> the level of
>>>> >>> a physical nuisance or characteristic,"
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> the Late Dr.
>>>> Kenneth
>>>> >>> Jernigan, Past President, National Federation
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> of the Blind.
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> Julie Vogt or
>>>> >>> jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> Faith-talk
>>>> mailing list
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> To
>>>> unsubscribe, change
>>>> >>> your list options or get your account info
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>> >>>>>>> Faith-talk
>>>> mailing list
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
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>>>> >>> >>>>>>> Faith-talk:
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>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>> >>>>>> Faith-talk mailing
>>>> list
>>>> >>> >>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> >>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
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>>>> >>> >>>>>> Faith-talk:
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>>>> >>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>> No virus found in this
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>>>> >>> >>>>> Checked by AVG -
>>>> http://www.avg.com
>>>> >>> >>>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus
>>>> Database:
>>>> >>> 270.9.0/1776 - Release Date: 11/8/2008
>>>> >>> >>>>> 6:49 PM
>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>> >>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> >>> >>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>
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>>>> >>> >>>>> Faith-talk:
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>>>> >>>
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>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>> >>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> >>> >>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> >>> >>>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
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>>>> list options
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>>>> >>> >>>> Faith-talk:
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>>>> >>>
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>>>> >>> >>>
>>>> >>> >>>
>>>> >>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> >>> >>>
>>>> >>> >>>
>>>> >>> >>>
>>>> >>> >>> No virus found in this incoming
>>>> message.
>>>> >>> >>> Checked by AVG -
>>>> http://www.avg.com
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>>>> Database:
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>>>> >>> >>> 2:14 PM
>>>> >>> >>>
>>>> >>> >>>
>>>> >>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>> >>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> >>> >>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> >>> >>>
>>>> >>>
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>>>> >>> >>> Faith-talk:
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>>>> >>>
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>>>> >>> >>>
>>>> >>> >>
>>>> >>> >>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>> >> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> >>> >> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> >>> >>
>>>> >>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
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>>>> >>> your account info for Faith-talk:
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>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> > No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>> >>> > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>> >>> > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database:
>>>> 270.9.0/1778 -
>>>> >>> Release Date: 11/9/2008 2:14 PM
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>> > Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> >>> > Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>>
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>>>> >>> account info for Faith-talk:
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>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> Corey Cook
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> >>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> >>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
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>>>> get your
>>>> >>> account info for Faith-talk:
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>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>> >> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> >> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> >>
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>>>> >> Faith-talk:
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>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> > Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> >
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>> account info for
>>>> > Faith-talk:
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>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/lynnwhite51%40sbcglobal.net
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>> Faith-talk:
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>>>
>> Corey Cook
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
>



From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Mon Nov 10 06:10:36 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 01:10:36 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] false accusations
In-Reply-To: <BAY113-DS3C6688C327278D0DB7291EB1A0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY133-DAV7C5DF97F6C797B9A3FAA2901B0@phx.gbl>
	<3DE6C8F59A0A4C4E902D8D50D4BF8043@TheCooksPC>
	<4383d01d0811091914k3751b511h4f7af9209ce59288@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY113-DS3C6688C327278D0DB7291EB1A0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811092210n35adc1edv5522f0d9cf8b8ebe@mail.gmail.com>

That's not always true.  We, European Americans, brought down the
Native Americans by way of diseases, uncleanliness, and ethnic
cleansing so to speak.  We called it God's being on our side.  Right?
The Roman and Greek cvilizations did partake in homosexuality, but the
Native Americans were very peaceable people, and look what Juan Ponce
de Leon, da Gama, and many other Spanish, English, French, Dutch, and
Portuguese explorers did to this continent before it was the United
States of America!
Beth

On 11/10/08, Barbara Hammel <poetlori8 at msn.com> wrote:
> And it's this lack of caring about what's gone on before that has led to the
> fall of every civilization that has reinvented the abhorances the Bible
> speaks of.
> Barbara
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 9:14 PM
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] false accusations
>
>> Okay, okay.  I just said it already.  I don't care about your surveys,
>> your statistics and data.  It just sounds like a bunch of warped
>> knowledge to me.
>> Beth
>>
>> On 11/9/08, Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net> wrote:
>>> Well put Pat.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Pat Gormley" <kk3f at msn.com>
>>> To: <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 6:09 PM
>>> Subject: [Faith-talk] false accusations
>>>
>>>
>>>> People that favor same sex unions tend not to be very good students of
>>>> history.  Ancient Greece and Rome both experienced similar breakdowns in
>>>> society as their civilizations.  You also need to look at actuarial data
>>>> and those tables indicate that those who engage in alternative
>>>> lifestyles
>>>> tend to live 10 to 15 years less than a similarly in tact married
>>>> couple.
>>>> I agree with Alan Wheeler in that we hate the sin  but not the sinner.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>>>>
>>> Corey Cook
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>



From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Mon Nov 10 06:16:32 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 01:16:32 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] new school prayer
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811092216q59181091yc699696d88694561@mail.gmail.com>

Take a look at this, guys.  My close friend sent me this one.

> >> A kid in Arizona wrote the attached
> >>
> >> NEW School prayer :
> >>
> >> Now I sit me down in school
> >> Where praying is against the rule
> >> For this great nation under God
> >> Finds mention of Him very odd.
> >> If Scripture now the class recites,
> >> It violates the Bill of Rights.
> >> And anytime my head I bow
> >> Becomes a Federal matter now.
> >> Our hair can be purple, orange or green,
> >> That's no offense; it's a freedom scene.
> >> The law is specific, the law is precise.
> >> Prayers spoken aloud are a serious vice.
> >> For praying in a public hall
> >> Might offend someone with no faith at all.
> >> In silence alone we must meditate,
> >> God's name is prohibited by the state.
> >> We're allowed to cuss and dress like freaks,
> >> And pierce our noses, tongues and cheeks..
> >> They've outlawed guns, but FIRST the Bible.
> >> To quote the Good Book makes me liable.
> >> We can elect a pregnant Senior Queen,
> >> And the 'unwed daddy,' our Senior King.
> >> It's 'inappropriate' to teach right from wrong,
> >> We're taught that such 'judgments' do not belong.
> >> We can get our condoms and birth controls,
> >> Study witchcraft, vampires and totem poles.
> >> But the Ten Commandments are not allowed,
> >> No word of God must reach this crowd.
> >> It's scary here I must confess,
> >> When chaos reigns the school's a mess.
> >> So, Lord, this silent plea I make:
> >> Should I be shot; My soul please take!
> >> Amen



From ccook01 at knology.net  Mon Nov 10 06:16:46 2008
From: ccook01 at knology.net (Corey Cook)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 01:16:46 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
In-Reply-To: <4383d01d0811092207g26921e5mcef163ce40090faa@mail.gmail.com>
References: <579159.68070.qm@web51906.mail.re2.yahoo.com><B8FA7640775C4FDE80497B65B4DB0E43@TheCooksPC><4383d01d0811092203o615e736fh19eb8d239fd9a81e@mail.gmail.com>
	<4383d01d0811092207g26921e5mcef163ce40090faa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9944582CC9DF48D7BF6ADFE9F1C8841A@TheCooksPC>

Sorry Beth,
All people are sinners.
Includes me and you.
Hard pill to take sometimes

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 1:07 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations


> Okay, please don't compare my friends in college to drunks and liars.
> They are who they are and they're different people, so please.  Just
> ... pleeeeeeeeze don't compare them to anythng less than what they
> are: people.
> Beth
>
> On 11/10/08, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
>> ROTFL! What a joke!
>> Beth
>>
>> On 11/10/08, Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net> wrote:
>>> Well siad Frank
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Frank Lordi" <timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com>
>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 11:02 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>
>>>
>>>> The bible clearly states that homosexual sex is an abomination.
>>>>
>>>> This is one of the hardest things about believing.  We must submit to
>>>> God's law.  We are 'a stif fnecked people' so this is difficult but we
>>>> must do it.  We need not understand, we need not agree, but we must 
>>>> obey.
>>>> Our Lord says those are his friends who keep his commands.  So if we 
>>>> want
>>>> to be his friend, we must accept among other things, that homosexual 
>>>> sex
>>>> is a sin.
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps it will help to look at it this way.  I like women a great 
>>>> deal.
>>>> I cannot stop liking women.  Often times i 'want' badly to have 
>>>> relations
>>>> with said women, but God's law says no, so i must follow this or accept
>>>> the wages of sin.
>>>>
>>>> The same goes for homosexuals, for cleptomaniacs, for the greedy, the
>>>> hopeless, etc.  We all have our crosses to carry, our temptations to
>>>> resist.
>>>>
>>>> --- On Sun, 11/9/08, BMW <lynnwhite51 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> From: BMW <lynnwhite51 at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>>> To: "Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 10:49 PM
>>>>> Beth, sex outside of the relationship between a husband and
>>>>> wife is a sin.
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: <timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com>; "Faith-talk,for
>>>>> the discussion of faith and
>>>>> religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 9:12 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> > Okay, if homosexuality is a sin, guess what?  What
>>>>> about the
>>>>> > homosexuals who have homosexual relations with each
>>>>> other and cannot
>>>>> > be attracted to opposite sex members?  I again may
>>>>> mention that I have
>>>>> > friends who are gay/lesbian.  And I am pleased with
>>>>> Obama in the white
>>>>> > house.  God knows what's best, and I believe in a
>>>>> God who loves all,
>>>>> > and God knows that homosexuality is a sin, but it is a
>>>>> sin between
>>>>> > those who can physically have someone of the opposite
>>>>> sex along with
>>>>> > being attracted with someone of the opposite sex.
>>>>> Take my
>>>>> > ex-boyfriend for instance.  He likes women, but if he
>>>>> went to sleep
>>>>> > with a young college friend of mine who I know is
>>>>> attracted to girls,
>>>>> > THAT is a sin.  But if my friend who is lesbian went
>>>>> to sleep with the
>>>>> > equally lesbian girlfriend, it is not a sin.  We must
>>>>> love everybody
>>>>> > unconditionally, and we must not say that they are
>>>>> committing a sin
>>>>> > unless they really are and have the brain chemicals
>>>>> made up so that
>>>>> > they are attracted to someone of the opposite sex.  I
>>>>> am attracted to
>>>>> > menh, so if I went to sleep with my college roommate,
>>>>> for instance,
>>>>> > that would be a in in itself.  I am blind, and if I
>>>>> married a blind
>>>>> > man, that would be fine.  But the way this country and
>>>>> the bible seems
>>>>> > to be interpreted, homosexuality would be stomped out
>>>>> and next will be
>>>>> > blindness.  Before we know it, our listservs will be
>>>>> in jeopardy, an
>>>>> > then, we wouldn't be able to marry, write, read,
>>>>> go to college, and if
>>>>> > the Terrorists get our country, and that is if Barack
>>>>> Obama's not
>>>>> > watching over us, we will be wearing veils if
>>>>> we're female.  I for one
>>>>> > do not want any ore arguments about homosexuality to
>>>>> ever pop up again
>>>>> > on this listserv.  I want to play it straight: it may
>>>>> be a sin, but
>>>>> > unfortunately, nobody understands the homosexual
>>>>> cannot be changed if
>>>>> > they are truly homosexual.  I understand my friends,
>>>>> and they are good
>>>>> > people.  They are going to college and they are going
>>>>> to be band and
>>>>> > chorus teachers.  Do you people thin that these girls
>>>>> I'm friends with
>>>>> > shouldn't be band and chorus teachers to young
>>>>> children because they
>>>>> > are homosexuals?  According to the weird article I
>>>>> read, yes.  But I'd
>>>>> > hire them any time.
>>>>> > Anyway, that's my soap box for today.
>>>>> > Beth
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On 11/9/08, Frank Lordi
>>>>> <timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>> >> you are speakin gof the concept of 'blood
>>>>> guilt'?
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> This so often brought grief to Isreal, no?
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> --- On Sun, 11/9/08, Corey Cook
>>>>> <ccook01 at knology.net> wrote:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>> From: Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net>
>>>>> >>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>>> >>> To: "Faith-talk, for the discussion of
>>>>> faith and religion"
>>>>> >>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> >>> Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 8:44 PM
>>>>> >>> Homosexuality is sin.
>>>>> >>> Read Romans 1
>>>>> >>> read first Corinthians 6
>>>>> >>> Yes we need to love them just as we love all
>>>>> sinners, but
>>>>> >>> it is time to call it what it is, and that is
>>>>> sin!
>>>>> >>> It is a sin that will be the end of this
>>>>> country if we
>>>>> >>> allow it to be accepted and embraced.
>>>>> >>> Not a popular thought, but a true one.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan
>>>>> Wheeler"
>>>>> >>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
>>>>> >>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of
>>>>> faith and
>>>>> >>> religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> >>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 6:29 PM
>>>>> >>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> > Never mind.  I keep telling you it is
>>>>> called a sin in
>>>>> >>> the bible...if you don't want to believe
>>>>> that God calls
>>>>> >>> it a sin, I can't say anything to sway
>>>>> you.
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> > +-+-+-
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> >   There is none holy as the LORD: for
>>>>> there is none
>>>>> >>> beside thee: neither is there any rock like
>>>>> our God.
>>>>> >>> > 1 Samuel 2:2
>>>>> >>> > ~~~
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> > Alan D Wheeler
>>>>> >>> > awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>>> >>> > IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>>> >>> > Skype: redwheel1
>>>>> >>> > Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM
>>>>> to 1 PM
>>>>> >>> eastern time at www.theqonline.net
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> > ----- Original Message ----- From:
>>>>> "Beth"
>>>>> >>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>>> >>> > To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion
>>>>> of faith and
>>>>> >>> religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> >>> > Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 2:41 PM
>>>>> >>> > Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False
>>>>> Accusations
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> >> We're talking about a country
>>>>> where not
>>>>> >>> everybody believes in God.  We
>>>>> >>> >> Christians are shoving God down the
>>>>> throats of
>>>>> >>> those who don't know
>>>>> >>> >> him.  We need to pray for the
>>>>> homosexuals and
>>>>> >>> those who are
>>>>> >>> >> experiencing a so-called sin ad we
>>>>> need to be
>>>>> >>> nicer to these people
>>>>> >>> >> for God's own sake.
>>>>> >>> >> Beth
>>>>> >>> >>
>>>>> >>> >> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler
>>>>> >>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>> >>> >>> At the same time, homosexuality
>>>>> is called a
>>>>> >>> sin and abomination by God. So
>>>>> >>> >>> you think we should allow people
>>>>> to continue
>>>>> >>> to sin against God?
>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>> >>> >>> +-+-+-
>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>> >>> >>>    We know that all things work
>>>>> together for
>>>>> >>> good for those who love God, to
>>>>> >>> >>> those
>>>>> >>> >>> who are called according to his
>>>>> purpose.
>>>>> >>> >>>  Romans 8:28
>>>>> >>> >>> ~~~
>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>> >>> >>> Alan D Wheeler
>>>>> >>> >>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>>> >>> >>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>>> >>> >>> Skype: redwheel1
>>>>> >>> >>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays
>>>>> from 10 AM to 1
>>>>> >>> PM eastern time at
>>>>> >>> >>> www.theqonline.net
>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> >>> >>> From: "Beth"
>>>>> >>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>>> >>> >>> To: "Faith-talk,for the
>>>>> discussion of
>>>>> >>> faith and religion"
>>>>> >>> >>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> >>> >>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008
>>>>> 10:44 AM
>>>>> >>> >>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False
>>>>> Accusations
>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>> >>> >>>> I would have toagree with
>>>>> Julie.  Marriage
>>>>> >>> is about love, not
>>>>> >>> >>>> procreative reasons only.
>>>>> I've known
>>>>> >>> friends who've gotten married as
>>>>> >>> >>>> nonprocreative peoples.
>>>>> Also, has anybody
>>>>> >>> thought that marriage
>>>>> >>> >>>> should at least be for those
>>>>> that can
>>>>> >>> participate in it as well?
>>>>> >>> >>>> Also, if we have bans on
>>>>> same-sex
>>>>> >>> marriage, think of it this way: we
>>>>> >>> >>>> are forcing religion on the
>>>>> people, which
>>>>> >>> God really doesn't want us
>>>>> >>> >>>> to do.  To be Christ-like is
>>>>> not to shove
>>>>> >>> God down the throats of
>>>>> >>> >>>> those who don't know him,
>>>>> but to
>>>>> >>> spread God's love to them, to let
>>>>> >>> >>>> them be free people.
>>>>> >>> >>>> Beth
>>>>> >>> >>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler
>>>>> >>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>> >>> >>>>> Beth,
>>>>> >>> >>>>> I gently disagree with
>>>>> you.  Marriage
>>>>> >>> was designed by God to be between a
>>>>> >>> >>>>> man and a woman.
>>>>> Don't take issue
>>>>> >>> because I said it.  Study the Bible
>>>>> >>> >>>>> and
>>>>> >>> >>>>> if you still don't
>>>>> like it, then
>>>>> >>> you have to take it up with God.  It was
>>>>> >>> >>>>> His idea to begin with,
>>>>> not man's.
>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>> +-+-+-
>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>    The LORD is my
>>>>> strength and song,
>>>>> >>> and he is become my salvation: he is
>>>>> >>> >>>>> my
>>>>> >>> >>>>> God, and I will prepare
>>>>> him an
>>>>> >>> >>>>>  habitation; my
>>>>> father's God, and
>>>>> >>> I will exalt him.
>>>>> >>> >>>>>  Exodus 15:2
>>>>> >>> >>>>> ~~~
>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>>>> >>> >>>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>>> >>> >>>>> IM me at:
>>>>> outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>>> >>> >>>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>>>> >>> >>>>> Check me out on the Q,
>>>>> Fridays from 10
>>>>> >>> AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>>>> >>> >>>>> www.theqonline.net
>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>> ----- Original Message
>>>>> -----
>>>>> >>> >>>>> From: "Beth"
>>>>> >>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>>> >>> >>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for
>>>>> the
>>>>> >>> discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> >>> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, November
>>>>> 09, 2008 7:29
>>>>> >>> AM
>>>>> >>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk]
>>>>> False
>>>>> >>> Accusations
>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>> I don't care if
>>>>> Obama's
>>>>> >>> half-black.  God's people will come to
>>>>> >>> >>>>>> understand a few
>>>>> things:
>>>>> >>> >>>>>> 1. Marriage, for
>>>>> example, is not
>>>>> >>> between "one man and one woman".  It
>>>>> >>> >>>>>> is between two able
>>>>> parties, same
>>>>> >>> o different sex, that are actually
>>>>> >>> >>>>>> willing to stay
>>>>> together.  Our
>>>>> >>> high divorce rate of heterosexual
>>>>> >>> >>>>>> couples mostly is bad
>>>>> for our
>>>>> >>> children herein America.
>>>>> >>> >>>>>> 2. Abortion should
>>>>> never happen.
>>>>> >>> If it's something that has to do
>>>>> >>> >>>>>> with the mother's
>>>>> life and
>>>>> >>> health, then that's the only exception.
>>>>> >>> >>>>>> But rape and birth
>>>>> control reasons
>>>>> >>> are not good ones.
>>>>> >>> >>>>>> 3. Blind people can
>>>>> and wwill have
>>>>> >>> equal rights to vote, gain security
>>>>> >>> >>>>>> benefits, and so on.
>>>>> Yes,
>>>>> >>> Obama's the most liberal, but we need him.
>>>>> >>> >>>>>> Maybe he's a lot
>>>>> more
>>>>> >>> Christian than Bush was.  But God's people
>>>>> must
>>>>> >>> >>>>>> not be against him.
>>>>> I'm a
>>>>> >>> Catholic, and I'm also a liberal as well.
>>>>> >>> >>>>>> Obama has also beat
>>>>> Kennedy by so
>>>>> >>> many years.  ANything having to do
>>>>> >>> >>>>>> with race is out as
>>>>> far as I'm
>>>>> >>> concerned.  Next, what will happen when
>>>>> >>> >>>>>> a woman is in the
>>>>> White House?
>>>>> >>> What about a blind woman? lol
>>>>> >>> >>>>>> Beth
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>> On 11/8/08, Linda
>>>>> Mentink
>>>>> >>> <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> Hi Julie,
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> I'm sorry,
>>>>> too.  I'm
>>>>> >>> not against our president elect because
>>>>> he's
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> black.  Fact is,
>>>>> he's half
>>>>> >>> black.  That's neither here nor
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> there.  It's
>>>>> mainly
>>>>> >>> because he's the most liberal of all in
>>>>> Congress,
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> and I believe
>>>>> that a lot of
>>>>> >>> our rights will be taken away once he is
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> sworn in.
>>>>> We'll see what
>>>>> >>> happens, but I'm praying for him, and all
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> the rest in
>>>>> authority over us.
>>>>> >>>  I sent those things to you because I
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> knew you
>>>>> wouldn't find out
>>>>> >>> from the mainstream media.  But the
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> election has made
>>>>> history, and
>>>>> >>> God's people need to be more vigilent
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> than
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> ever.
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> Blessings,
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> Linda
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> At 03:33 PM
>>>>> 11/8/2008, you
>>>>> >>> wrote:
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> It happened
>>>>> by accident.
>>>>> >>> When you didn't stop attacking in my
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> in-box--those
>>>>> of you who
>>>>> >>> did it--people of other races by way of our
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> new
>>>>> President-elect, I
>>>>> >>> wrote what I wrote.  Now you know how false
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> accusations
>>>>> hurt
>>>>> >>> everybody.  Because of one man the
>>>>> African-American
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> Church, and
>>>>> people who
>>>>> >>> attend them, have been under tremendous
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> attack ever
>>>>> since last
>>>>> >>> March with no let-up.  Ever since I began
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> attending and
>>>>> became saved
>>>>> >>> in African-American churches in 1972,
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> I've
>>>>> heard dirty,
>>>>> >>> dirty comments like:  "they just do in
>>>>> their
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> church what
>>>>> they did in
>>>>> >>> the slave days."  In the slave days,
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> African-Americans
>>>>> >>> weren't permitted to know anything of the
>>>>> Bible
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> but
>>>>> "Servants obey
>>>>> >>> your masters in the Lord for this is right.
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> If people say
>>>>> what people
>>>>> >>> have said about one another's churches
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> ever since
>>>>> last March,
>>>>> >>> referring to us as blind people, we'd be
>>>>> up
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> in arms.  Let
>>>>> us all be
>>>>> >>> more careful.
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> It hit me
>>>>> like a
>>>>> >>> thunderbolt while I was playing piano at a
>>>>> senior
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> citizens
>>>>> building today
>>>>> >>> why you all were upset.  And as upset as you
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> were last
>>>>> Thursday night,
>>>>> >>> Linda, I was that upset one month ago when
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> I read what
>>>>> you
>>>>> >>> particularly sent me privately at 5:00 on a
>>>>> Sunday
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> morning while
>>>>>  I was
>>>>> >>> getting ready for church.  I'm sorry and
>>>>> maybe
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> we can
>>>>> understand one
>>>>> >>> another better now.
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>  has been
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> "Loyalty
>>>>> to petrified
>>>>> >>> opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> human
>>>>> soul," American
>>>>> >>> Humorist Mark Twain
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> "An
>>>>> attack on one of
>>>>> >>> us is an attack on all of us," Dr.
>>>>> Kenneth
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> Jernigan,
>>>>> Immediate Past
>>>>> >>> President, National Federation of the Blind
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> "A
>>>>> brother offended
>>>>> >>> is harder to be won than a strong city: and
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> their
>>>>> contentions are like
>>>>> >>> the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19.
>>>>> KJV
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> "Faith
>>>>> is the ability
>>>>> >>> to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> "No one
>>>>> can do it for
>>>>> >>> us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation
>>>>> Push,
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> 1976.
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> "With
>>>>> proper
>>>>> >>> training, development, and opportunity,
>>>>> blindness can
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> be reduced to
>>>>> the level of
>>>>> >>> a physical nuisance or characteristic,"
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> the Late Dr.
>>>>> Kenneth
>>>>> >>> Jernigan, Past President, National Federation
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> of the Blind.
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> Julie Vogt or
>>>>> >>> jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> Faith-talk
>>>>> mailing list
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> To
>>>>> unsubscribe, change
>>>>> >>> your list options or get your account info
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> for
>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> Faith-talk
>>>>> mailing list
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe,
>>>>> change your
>>>>> >>> list options or get your account info for
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >>> >>>>>> Faith-talk mailing
>>>>> list
>>>>> >>> >>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> >>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe,
>>>>> change your list
>>>>> >>> options or get your account info for
>>>>> >>> >>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>> No virus found in this
>>>>> incoming
>>>>> >>> message.
>>>>> >>> >>>>> Checked by AVG -
>>>>> http://www.avg.com
>>>>> >>> >>>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus
>>>>> Database:
>>>>> >>> 270.9.0/1776 - Release Date: 11/8/2008
>>>>> >>> >>>>> 6:49 PM
>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >>> >>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> >>> >>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> >>> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change
>>>>> your list
>>>>> >>> options or get your account info for
>>>>> >>> >>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >>> >>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> >>> >>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> >>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> >>> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your
>>>>> list options
>>>>> >>> or get your account info for
>>>>> >>> >>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> >>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>> >>> >>> No virus found in this incoming
>>>>> message.
>>>>> >>> >>> Checked by AVG -
>>>>> http://www.avg.com
>>>>> >>> >>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus
>>>>> Database:
>>>>> >>> 270.9.0/1778 - Release Date: 11/9/2008
>>>>> >>> >>> 2:14 PM
>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >>> >>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> >>> >>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list
>>>>> options or
>>>>> >>> get your account info for
>>>>> >>> >>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>> >>> >>
>>>>> >>> >>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >>> >> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> >>> >> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> >>> >>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> >>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list
>>>>> options or get
>>>>> >>> your account info for Faith-talk:
>>>>> >>> >>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> > No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>> >>> > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>>> >>> > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database:
>>>>> 270.9.0/1778 -
>>>>> >>> Release Date: 11/9/2008 2:14 PM
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >>> > Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> >>> > Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options
>>>>> or get your
>>>>> >>> account info for Faith-talk:
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> Corey Cook
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> >>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or
>>>>> get your
>>>>> >>> account info for Faith-talk:
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/timber_wolf899%40yahoo.com
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> >> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> >>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get
>>>>> your account info for
>>>>> >> Faith-talk:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >
>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>> > Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> > Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> >
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>> account info for
>>>>> > Faith-talk:
>>>>> >
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/lynnwhite51%40sbcglobal.net
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>> account info for Faith-talk:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/timber_wolf899%40yahoo.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>>>>
>>> Corey Cook
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>
Corey Cook 




From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Mon Nov 10 06:22:09 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 01:22:09 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Discussion
In-Reply-To: <BF32008C2281471698F5A5EFF0A211D2@TheCooksPC>
References: <20081110040703.1E100CCAF8@relay04.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
	<BF32008C2281471698F5A5EFF0A211D2@TheCooksPC>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811092222j2776fae2g1b382eea8f9a2b8d@mail.gmail.com>

Okay.  So if homosexuality is a sin, as I have seen pointed out so
many times, then what about our lifestyle as blind people living?  The
homosexuals are not trying to shove their lifestyle down or throats.
They just want to live for God's sake.  Yes, it is a sin, and yes,
it's sinfu if I do it to my friends, but please.  I just want my
friends to have their rights.  I'm not as Conservative as you are,
Linda, and I'm a severely liberal Catholic.  I know, I know, it hurts
to be a Catholic in a church full of Conservatives yet be liberal in a
place like Tallahassee.  But let's face it.  My friends want their
rights.  I care for them, and they don't know what suffering they will
feel if we continue to hurt them by the so-called "word".  Okay, I
don't want to diss the Bible, but there's a clear definition of love:
love is a family.  Kids have a right to love, not a right to an
abusive "mom and dad."  Sadly, there are more abusive heterosexual
couples out there than gay ones.  This whole argument has just gone
overboard, and I feel as though I'm being attacked, and my friends, if
they came across this, might be attacked as well.
Beth

On 11/9/08, Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net> wrote:
> Linda,
> Very well written email.
> The bible is food for our souls.
> Just as we need physical food, we must feast on the food of the word.
> As for the issue of homosexuality, as many have pointed out it is sin.
> God does hate sin, and this goes for all sin.
> We as Christians need to remember that yes we should be angry about this
> life style being shoved on us.
> But at the same time we need to also not let this sin get in the way of the
> sins we as Christians deal with.
> We are all sinners, those of us who are Christians have been saved from our
> sins.
> But don't be fooled we still deal with sin.
> And to God that sin is just as ugly as homosexuality.
> For some people maybe they need to deal with the way they treat others.
> For others maybe it is the sin of not loving a wife or husband the way God
> says we should love them.
> Just my thoughts.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Linda Mentink" <mentink at frontiernet.net>
> To: <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 11:07 PM
> Subject: [Faith-talk] Discussion
>
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I have had my computer off since last night, but have read all the
>> messages, except the articles.
>>
>> Now, I'm speaking as a list member, and not the moderator, just so we're
>> clear here.  I believe the Bible--all of it.  It lays out very clearly
>> what sin is, what marriage is, what being a Christian is, and much, much
>> more.   The Bible says that homosexuality is a sin, and there are no true
>> Christians who practice this as a lifestyle.   As has been said here, it's
>>
>> not our opinion; God doesn't care what we think, but what we believe His
>> Word, the Bible, to say.  The Bible is the Christian's guidebook.
>>
>> Because we are being forced to forget God in many public arenas, we as a
>> nation are not following His Word.  We are to love the sinner, but not the
>>
>> sin.  Enough said from me on that point.
>>
>> I encourage all of you to daily read and study your Bibles, and apply what
>>
>> you read to your lives each day.  Most in this country are not believers,
>> Christians, so we should expect them to behave as they do.  We who call
>> ourselves Christians should live separate, holy lives, that we might win
>> others to Christ.  That means how we dress, what music we listen to, how
>> we speak, how we spend our time, what we read, who we hang around with,
>> etc.  Things are going to get worse for us here, so we'd better be
>> grounded in the Word of God, and stay close to Him in prayer.
>>
>> Blessings,
>>
>> Linda
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>>
> Corey Cook
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>



From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Mon Nov 10 06:26:39 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 01:26:39 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] article 2
In-Reply-To: <6FC4D51897564B62B1781410DF39FCB3@TheCooksPC>
References: <6FC4D51897564B62B1781410DF39FCB3@TheCooksPC>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811092226p5f85cb5flb5d792fc4f5c4335@mail.gmail.com>

Hah.  This is a very twisted debate.  I'm moving to the Netherlands if
this keeps up. lol
Beth

On 11/9/08, Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net> wrote:
> What's Really at Stake in the Gay Marriage Debate? Part 2
> Albert Mohler
> President, Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
>
> October 20, 2008
>
> Editor's Note: This article is the second in a series. Click here to read
> part one.
>
> Same-sex marriage is, for now, legal in three of fifty states in the United
> States.  Beyond our borders, it is legal in the Netherlands, Spain, Belgium,
> South Africa, Canada and Norway.  This represents a very small percentage of
> the world's population.  Same-sex marriage is, by any measure, the exception
> rather than the rule.  Even when legalized civil unions and domestic
> partnerships are thrown into the mix, the countries that consider same-sex
> unions and heterosexual marriages to be equal before the law represent a
> small percentage of the world's nations.
>
> Keep that in mind when you observe the media's coverage of the issue.  By
> and large, the mainstream media have presented opposition to same-sex
> marriage as the odd and out-of-step position and support for same-sex
> marriage as the mainstream assumption.
>
> The San Francisco Chronicle now reports that conservative Christians
> represent the major energy behind the promotion of Proposition 8 in
> California.  The major media generally frame these Christians as out of step
> with the times.   As the paper reports:
>
> Christian conservatives have come to dominate the religious debate
> surrounding Prop. 8 - even though the Bible's statements on homosexuality
> are complex and disputed among Christians.
>
> Catholics, Mormons and evangelicals have been contributing millions of
> dollars and flying into the state from around the nation to lead rallies and
> services that preach support for the measure.
>
> The paper describes the Bible's statements on homosexuality as "complex and
> disputed."  Of course, this is only true in very recent years and within a
> very thin slice of liberal Christianity.  Most Christians throughout the
> history of the church -- and the vast majority of Christians alive today --
> have no problem understanding what the Bible teaches about homosexuality.
>
> Take a very close look at these paragraphs:
>
> Liberal groups representing Christians, Jews and others are trying to defeat
> the measure. But their efforts have been far more modest, even though
> priests and rabbis in the Bay Area have played a pivotal role in creating
> and cultivating a theology that includes lesbians and gays as equals to
> heterosexuals.
>
> Conservatives and liberals generally use dramatically different lenses to
> interpret the Bible. Christian conservatives tend to emphasize an
> interpretation of the Bible that doesn't change with the times. They say the
> Bible describes marriage as only between a man and a woman.
>
> "You've got the California Supreme Court rewriting sacred heritage," said
> Steve Madsen, pastor of Cornerstone Fellowship, an evangelical megachurch in
> Livermore.
>
> Liberal Christians tend to emphasize that divine revelation can come from
> many places, even outside the church. For example, many denominations don't
> allow same-sex marriages, while California law does.
>
> "Culture is going to manifest Christ in a way that summons the church to new
> realities," said Episcopal Bishop Marc Andrus.
>
> These statements are incredibly revealing.  First, note that the paper
> describes efforts to normalize homosexuality have included "creating and
> cultivating a theology" that would serve their purposes.  That is a very
> helpful (and accurate) explanation.  There is no way that the received
> tradition can be twisted into support for same-sex marriage.
>
> Second, observe the fact that the paper recognizes that those on opposing
> sides of this debate "use dramatically different lenses to interpret the
> Bible."  That is an understatement, but represents another helpful
> explanation.  The arguments put forth by proponents of same-sex marriage
> come down to assertions that the Bible does not say what it plainly does
> say, that Christians have misunderstood the critical passages until liberal
> scholars pushing this agenda have just discovered what the passages really
> mean, or that the Bible just has to be corrected in light of contemporary
> developments.
>
> Third, note that the reporter explains that conservatives "say the Bible
> describes marriage as only between a man and a woman."  Any honest reader
> must acknowledge that the Bible describes marriage in exclusively
> heterosexual terms.
>
> Fourth, on the other hand, note that liberals pushing for the normalization
> of homosexual behaviors and relationships are described as believing that
> "divine revelation can come from many places, even outside the church."
> Episcopal Bishop Marc Andrus is quoted as saying, "Culture is going to
> manifest Christ in a way that summons the church to new realities."  In
> other words, who needs the Bible when you can just accept some new cultural
> authority in its place?
>
> Proponents of same-sex marriage now attempt to argue that the only
> opposition to legalized homosexual marriage comes from conservative
> Christians pushing a narrow theological agenda.  They cannot possibly claim
> that conservative Christians control the vast majority of the world's
> nations in which same-sex marriage is decidedly not legal.
>
> Still, the fact that the San Francisco Chronicle felt the need to publish a
> chart of Bible passages on homosexuality tells us something.  The very
> existence of these passages still troubles the consciences of those pushing
> the normalization of homosexuality -- whether within or without the church.
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> In addition to being one of Salem's nationally syndicated radio talk show
> hosts, R. Albert Mohler, Jr. is the president of The Southern Baptist
> Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky and recognized as one of
> America's leading theologians and cultural commentators. Contact Dr. Mohler
> at mail at albertmohler.com.
>
> Find this article at: http://www.crosswalk.com/news/commentary/11583138/
>
> Corey Cook
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>



From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Mon Nov 10 06:30:06 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 01:30:06 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Emailing: Last Days Ministries I'm Gay, O.K.
In-Reply-To: <005d01c942ec$28333750$5c85fe04@rjige047kjawst>
References: <35A03D458698454A84A02B53EB5728FC@Buster>
	<0AE2D4A5152D4796862C6EFB2E88D3AE@nickf1758c2c9d>
	<4383d01d0811091933w2fff5563r4b7dc4d58c5eb47c@mail.gmail.com>
	<005d01c942ec$28333750$5c85fe04@rjige047kjawst>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811092230p556cf25bk342c1ae7d2a0e47b@mail.gmail.com>

You're all right about this.  But the Bible makes disabilities and
blindness especially look bad.  Jesus heals a blind man, and back in
he Biblical days, they didn't have Braille, slates and styli, the
Braillewriter, or even more, the Internet, computers, JAWS, and this
listserv.
Think about it.
It doesn't mention Jesus healing a homosexual.  Jesus never hung out
with homosexuals.
Did he?
Beth

On 11/9/08, rjs059 at peoplepc.com <rjs059 at peoplepc.com> wrote:
> Beth, Marriage, Was a religious practice, long before the government even
> became involved. And furthermore, It is conceder to be a sacrament in the
> Catholic church.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:33 PM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Emailing: Last Days Ministries I'm Gay, O.K.
>
>
>> Come on!  I've said it enough.  Marriage isn't going to just be
>> "between ONE MAN and ONE WOMAN" enough these days.  Before you know
>> it, Christians will interpret the Bible as being of the able-bodied to
>> be perfect and capable of multiplyin and so on.  This is horrible!
>> Bet
>>
>> On 11/9/08, trising at sbcglobal.net <trising at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> That is an absolutely excellent article! All of us sin and fall short of
>>> the
>>> glory of God, whether we are gay or a gossip. Jesus loves all of us and
>>> came
>>> here to die in our place for our sins so we can go to heaven and be with
>>> him. We will not go there if we do not trust in Him alone as the provider
>>>
>>> of
>>> our salvation. People who commit any sin, and that means all of us,
>>> deserve
>>> to be loved, but not to have our sin excused or minimized. It is God's
>>> design for marriage to be between one man and one woman. we as Christians
>>> can stand up for what is right, while loving those caught in homosexual
>>> sin.
>>> Giving them special rights is wrong, but so is refusing to talk to them,
>>> or
>>> regarding them as someone God cannot save.
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/rjs059%40peoplepc.com
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1776 - Release Date: 11/8/2008
> 6:49 PM
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>



From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Mon Nov 10 06:33:18 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 01:33:18 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] article3
In-Reply-To: <FA1BA1E983C54480AE9F643BB19848D6@TheCooksPC>
References: <FA1BA1E983C54480AE9F643BB19848D6@TheCooksPC>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811092233m4af5ab95sf71ed04b3fc45619@mail.gmail.com>

How dramatifc.  We can still use those dead words--husband, wife,
boyfriend, girlfriend--but we can add new ones.  What's wrong wit the
man here?
Beth

On 11/9/08, Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net> wrote:
> What's Really at Stake in the Gay Marriage Debate? Part 3
> Albert Mohler
> President, Southern Bapist Theological Seminary
>
> October 24, 2008
>
> "We're talking about really refraining from using things like, husband-wife,
> boyfriend-girlfriend, those kind of things, and just say 'partner,'"
> explains Robin Sinks.  She is the health education specialist for the Long
> Beach Unified School District in California.  The point she was making is
> clear enough.  The legalization of same-sex marriage will require a
> comprehensive change in our language.
>
> Language is, as we now know, integral to a culture.  In fact,
> anthropologists such as the influential Clifford Geertz refer to human
> culture as a "cultural-lingustic system."  The language and the culture are
> inseparable.  Each influences the other, and together they produce an entire
> system of meaning.
>
> Until now, at least, words like "husband" and "wife" have been essential to
> understanding our culture.  Some words have been inseparable, forming
> comprehensive sets of meaning together.  "Marriage" goes with "husband" and
> "wife."  "Boyfriend" goes with "girlfriend."
>
> With the legalization of same-sex marriage, the only acceptable word is
> "partner."  Marriage licenses will speak of the union of "Partner A" with
> "Partner B."  There will be no use for terms such as "wife" or "husband."
>
> Robin Sinks made her statement with reference to what the normalization of
> same-sex marriage would mean for the public schools.  As MSNBC reports, the
> battle over same-sex marriage will reach the schools.
>
> "The opposing sides have debated what, if anything, schools must teach about
> marriage now that gays have the right to wed," the network explains.
>
> California mandates that schools teach about marriage, if the schools teach
> sex education.  Surprisingly perhaps, the vast majority of California school
> districts do not teach sex education.  Nevertheless, one state judge
> recently ruled that the districts "may require" such courses.
>
> California is "ground zero" on this issue because the state's voters will
> face "Proposition 8" on the November 4 ballot.  This proposition, if
> approved by voters, would amend the California constitution to limit
> marriage to the union of a man and a woman.  The measure is an effort to
> reverse last May's decision by the California Supreme Court to legalize
> same-sex marriage.
>
> Given the state's huge population and cultural influence, all eyes are now
> on California.  But so should be our ears.  Do we hear a shift in the
> language coming?  If so, the language will change far more than vocabulary
> and word usage.
>
> Civilizations are built on careful and necessary distinctions.  As an
> institution, marriage has been defined throughout history as a heterosexual
> union.  Marriage is so central to our civilization that its related words
> have become equally essential.  Words like "husband" and "wife" have been
> necessary to understanding our stories, our laws, our families, our social
> arrangements, and our aspirations.  Transform marriage into a homosexual
> institution, and the vocabulary no longer works.
>
> The effects of this linguistic transformation are most acute among the
> young.  Language acquisition is among the most essential tasks of childhood
> -- and this includes everything from early babbling to vocabulary lists at
> school.
>
> When children acquire a language without the words "husband" or "wife," they
> acquire a cultural knowledge that betrays the subversion of the central
> institution of civilization itself.  "Partner" is just not enough to carry
> the meaning of marriage.  Will "husband" and "wife" soon be relegated to the
> dust-bin of obsolete words?  If so, the loss will leave us speechless.
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> In addition to being one of Salem's nationally syndicated radio talk show
> hosts, R. Albert Mohler, Jr. is the president of The Southern Baptist
> Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky and recognized as one of
> America's leading theologians and cultural commentators. Contact Dr. Mohler
> at mail at albertmohler.com.
>
> Find this article at: http://www.crosswalk.com/news/commentary/11583380/
>
> Corey Cook
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>



From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Mon Nov 10 06:34:34 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 01:34:34 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] More about homosexuality.
In-Reply-To: <F8B2126C6A1C48A987B58AE8BEEA3DBF@TheCooksPC>
References: <45DA65A746C4427D84681755CC35CB99@Alan>
	<F8B2126C6A1C48A987B58AE8BEEA3DBF@TheCooksPC>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811092234h5b26ed37w4822ffe53389de8f@mail.gmail.com>

What about the verses that speak of the blind man being healed?  As I
said in a previous e-mail, what about Jesus hanging out with
homosexuals?  Did he do that?  Um, somebody open their inner eyes.
Beth

On 11/9/08, Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net> wrote:
> This is an excellent read.
> I am going to post 4 articles here in a minute that bring some more light to
> the issue.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Alan Wheeler" <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
> To: <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 1:53 PM
> Subject: [Faith-talk] More about homosexuality.
>
>
>>I went to www.biblegateway.com to see what I could find about homosexuality
>>
>>and the bible.  This was among the resources.  So, again I say, and this is
>>
>>my last comment on the subject, if you disagree that marriage is only for
>>men and women, then your argument is with God.  It's in His book.
>>
>> http://www.faithfacts.org/christ-and-the-culture/gay-rights#marriage
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Sanctity of Marriage
>> In recent years, the homosexual movement has centered on giving
>> marriage-like benefits to gay couples. Many in the culture have mistakenly
>>
>> concluded that marriage is merely an institution for the convenience of
>> adults. In actuality, marriage is the bedrock institution for culture to
>> sustain itself through having and nurturing children. There are
>> complementary aspects to a man and woman that are important to the
>> instutution of marriage which go beyond the obvious physical attributes.
>> There are things that a man needs that can only be provided by a woman,
>> and vice versa.
>>
>> These complementary aspects are important to the relationship of the
>> couple itself, as well as to the children. One does not have to appeal to
>> religion to instinctively understand this. Yet statistics verify the
>> structure of the traditional family as the approach to raising children
>> that gives the best measurable results. The overwhelming body of social
>> science research agrees that children do best when raised in homes with
>> married, opposite-sex parents. Every child has the right to both a mom and
>>
>> a dad.
>>
>> Yet we cannot divorce the institution of marriage from its theological
>> roots. We acknowledge that marriage is an institution given by God
>> (Genesis 2:24). The Creator of the Universe established the relationship
>> between a man and a woman, thus it is a divine institution, not a human
>> one. To confer marriage-like rights to gays is not the prerogative of
>> people (Matthew 19:6). (This includes civil unions or domestic
>> partnerships, as they are merely marriage by other names.) Defining
>> marriage is the prerogative of God. Whatever may tend to undermine the
>> institution of marriage would also undermine the authority of God, as well
>>
>> as hurt society.
>>
>> Liberals may argue, "Why should we arbitrarily select only heterosexual
>> couples for marriage? What can it hurt if two homosexuals want to marry?"
>> The answer is surprisingly simple. The institution of marriage between and
>>
>> man a woman is not, in fact, arbitrary. It's purpose is clear and of
>> utmost importance to society.
>>
>> David Orland in an article entitled "The Deceit of Gay Marriage" puts it
>> very well. He says:
>>
>>  To justify giving privileges or exemptions or subsidies to some
>> particular group in society, the benefit of doing so for society at large
>> must first be shown. With heterosexual marriage, the case is clear enough.
>>
>> Heterosexual marriage is a matter of genuine social interest because the
>> family is essential to society's reproduction. The crux of my argument, in
>>
>> other words, was that married couples receive the benefits they do, not
>> because the state is interested in promoting romantic love, or because the
>>
>> Bible says so or because of the influence of special interest groups but
>> rather because the next generation is something that is and should be of
>> interest to all of us. And, by definition, this is not a case that can be
>> made for homosexual unions. To that degree, the attempt to turn the
>> question of domestic partnership into a debate about fairness falls flat.
>>
>>  The more persistent supporters of domestic partnership will of course
>> respond to this argument by pointing to the case in which homosexual
>> partners adopt children or, in the case of lesbians, undergo artificial
>> insemination. The intention here is to show that the nuclear family is
>> found even among homosexual couples and that, to that extent, homosexual
>> unions do indeed meet the same criterion of social interest as
>> heterosexual ones and thus should be granted legal status. It is a weak
>> argument and one that ultimately back-fires on those who employ it. This
>> is for two reasons:
>>
>>  First, adoption by homosexual couples is still exceedingly rare and the
>> law-though many are surprised to learn this-is aimed at the general case.
>> To confer legal benefits on the entire class of would-be homosexual
>> spouses just because some very small minority of this class approximates
>> the pattern of the nuclear family would be a bit like admitting all
>> applicants to a select university on the grounds that a few of them had
>> been shown to meet the entrance requirements.
>>
>>  Second, the right of this small minority to the benefits of marriage is
>> dubious in the extreme. Homosexual "families" of whatever type are always
>> and necessarily parasitic on heterosexual ones.
>>
>> Every child has the right to a mom and a dad. See 5 Reasons Why Same-Sex
>> Marriage Harms Children.
>>
>> But homosexuals not only want fair treatment, they are pushing for "Super
>> Rights." According the Paul Cameron of the Family Research Institute:
>>
>>  "Every member of society has a duty to contribute to the commonwealth.
>> Yet the empirical evidence indicates that those who engage in
>> homosexuality 1) contribute less and cost more in goods and services, 2)
>> disproportionately disrupt social functioning, and 3) have few children
>> while being more apt to harm them. Thus, homosexual practioners not only
>> fail to 'pay for their keep,' but by their negative influence on children,
>>
>> cloud society's future.
>>
>>  Those who engage in homosexuality seek what they say are 'gay rights." In
>>
>> reality, they are demanding Super Rights. Super Rights are those
>> privileges that allow one to ovverride the inalienable rights of other
>> citizens, such as freedom of speech and association. These Super
>> Rights-which are conferred by 'non-discrimination,' 'hate crime,' and
>> 'hate speech' laws-allow homosexuals, if they so choose, to endanger or
>> punish those who would exercise their associational rights to avoid them
>> or protect their children from them.
>>
>>  As an example, empirical studies to date indicate that a male teacher who
>>
>> practices homosexuality is the most likely kind of teacher to sexually
>> molest students. A principal knowing this may not want to hire a teacher
>> who declares his homosexual interests. But if that teacher wants the job,
>> his Super Rights trump the associational rights of the principal as well
>> as the right of students not to experience extra risk (especially since
>> safety is part of their right to life). Parents renting out one side of
>> their duplex may not want to place their children at risk by renting to a
>> gay couple. But if-even on a whim - the homosexuals want the duplex, their
>>
>> Super Rights trump the property and associational rights of the parents as
>>
>> well as their children's right not to be exposed to potential molestation.
>>
>>  The Super Rights of homosexual practitioners also squelch the right of
>> others to freedom of speech. If a broadcaster opines that homosexual sex
>> is dangerous, but a homosexual finds such speech 'offensive,' his Super
>> Rights trump the broadcaster's freedom of speech and the broadcaster may
>> be fined or imprisoned."
>>
>> The concept of hate crimes seems particularly reprehensible. If one of
>> your (heterosexual) loved ones is the object of a despicable crime, the
>> perpetrator would receive a lesser punishment than someone who committed
>> the same act against someone who practices homosexual sex!
>>
>> +-+-+-
>>
>>   He has made clear to you, O man, what is good; and what is desired from
>> you by the Lord; only doing what is
>> right, and loving mercy, and walking without pride before your God. Micah
>> 6:8
>> ~~~
>>
>> Alan D Wheeler
>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>> Skype: redwheel1
>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>> www.theqonline.net
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>>
> Corey Cook
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
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>



From sslucki at chariot.net.au  Mon Nov 10 06:35:42 2008
From: sslucki at chariot.net.au (Stefan Slucki)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 17:05:42 +1030
Subject: [Faith-talk] More about homosexuality.
References: <45DA65A746C4427D84681755CC35CB99@Alan>
	<4383d01d0811091253x2afd9cffu8fc0dcd74995a54d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7101768EB7DD43B9A2C0654D707C1C14@stefan706c912c>

Dear list,

I believe what Alan has quoted about the phenomenon of homosexuality is 
correct and not extreme. We must proclaim the truth in a loving and gracious 
way; we must agitate for laws that reflect God's Laws and these kind of laws 
would be agreed to by Jews and Muslims as well who submit themselves to an 
objective, external authority.

There are a number of statements in Beth's response to Alan about God Loving 
everybody, about lesbians being as good if not better care-givers than 
heterosexual couples which I won't comment on:
what I believe we must do is have a unity on submitting/embracing what God's 
Word clearly teaches.

Rome declined because the drive of sex, in particular homosexual sex became 
overwhelming.

I certainly agree that we must examine our cultural understanding of what 
Scripture is thought to say e.g. about women wearing "man's clothing".

For instance, I believe it is most Scriptural to drink fermented wine and 
eat unleavened bread at the Lord's Table but the know-it-better churches 
(many of them) have decreed differently and so we eat wholemeal and cheap 
grape-juice!  My point is that the Christian (however counter-cultural we 
may appear) must be conscience-bound to the Scriptures and to have God's 
Will done on earth as in heaven and ain't no sodomite gonna make it to 
heaven -- unless they repent and forsake their filthy, degrading and 
Onan-like practices.

Stefan Slucki. 




From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Mon Nov 10 06:39:07 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 01:39:07 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] article 1
In-Reply-To: <540AD6D7A71946E7A883D27649F2C41F@nickf1758c2c9d>
References: <5F3A84795F784BB39F938F35FB1FD13B@TheCooksPC>
	<540AD6D7A71946E7A883D27649F2C41F@nickf1758c2c9d>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811092239n65ce4819jbbe399d2bc8f7b2e@mail.gmail.com>

Forget it.  California already did this, and so did Florida on
Proposition 2.  I'm done here.  This guy is speaking a bunch of tosh
here.  Marriage is no longer just a breeding thing.  It's love as
well.  I mean, if I were eighty years old and couldn't have kids,
could I still marry?  Yes.  I can't breed, but I could still marry.
Now, marriage then is not about breeding.  I don't see why his
argument had to go overboard.  Gay marriage to me is a civil rights
issue as much as it is for me a civil rights issue that we blind
people get to vote on things like what was passed in California and
Florida.
Beth

On 11/9/08, trising at sbcglobal.net <trising at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Great article!
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
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>



From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Mon Nov 10 06:45:04 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 01:45:04 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] article4
In-Reply-To: <A44FB971A6D54B02A2851B7A742AFEF7@TheCooksPC>
References: <A44FB971A6D54B02A2851B7A742AFEF7@TheCooksPC>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811092245p1a08f350wb42da0902dd5648f@mail.gmail.com>

Hah.  This is the only article worth reading to me.  Both sides in the
case are right, but I believe I have a right to take the side I'm on
because I don't like to see people get hurt and see them be
discriminated against and placed below the normals, the sighted folks,
the able-bodied, and the normal-thinkers.
Beth

On 11/9/08, Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net> wrote:
> What's Really at Stake in the Gay Marriage Debate? Part 4
> Albert Mohler
> President, Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
>
> October 27, 2008
>
> Writing more than twenty years ago, Thomas Sowell described the basic
> worldview clash we observe today as a struggle between "constrained" and
> "unconstrained" visions of humanity.  The fundamental distinction between
> these two visions is moral, but the thrust of each is ideological.  The
> constrained vision may be considered basically conservative, while the
> unconstrained vision is basically liberal, in modern terms.
>
> There is great wisdom in Sowell's analysis, and in his book, The Conflict of
> Visions. But the greatest achievement of this book is Sowell's insistence
> that political struggles have ideological origins.
>
> This is certainly true with reference to the political struggle over
> same-sex marriage.  In California, the controversy is over "Proposition 8"
> on the November ballot -- a measure that would amend the state's
> constitution to establish marriage as the union of a man and a woman.
> Voters in Arizona and Florida will face measures that would disallow
> same-sex marriages.
>
> Nationwide, we face efforts to repeal the Defense of Marriage Act (a repeal
> championed by Sen. Barack Obama) and to achieve same-sex marriage through
> the courts.  State by state, the issue is constantly reshaped and reframed.
>
> At the same time, there is a sense that the public is shifting its
> perception of the issue.  When the issue is framed as simple fairness,
> Americans increasingly seem to tire of arguing that sexual behavior or
> orientation (at least in terms of homosexuality) should matter when it comes
> to the basic rights associated with marriage.  This trend is especially
> noticeable among the young.  Younger Americans, by and large, see
> homosexuality as part of the recognizable landscape and within the normal
> range of human behaviors.
>
> All this represents a massive shift in perception over a relatively short
> period of time.  The activists promoting the normalization of homosexuality
> have been tremendously successful in their efforts.  The mainstream media,
> the educational elites, and various culture shapers have pushed this cause.
> Today, on the average college or university campus, homosexuality is not
> considered to be a major moral issue.  Any discrimination against
> homosexuals, on the other hand, is considered a moral issue of urgency and
> outrage.  In much of the culture, it is considered increasingly immoral to
> assert that homosexuality is immoral.
>
> There is no real ground for compromise between these two visions and
> perspectives.  Both sides frame their argument in moral terms.  Advocates of
> the constrained vision argue that humanity is heterosexual by default and
> design and that homosexuality is thus an aberration to be sanctioned and
> discouraged.  Advocates of the unconstrained vision argue that homosexuality
> is just one among several acceptable options for humanity.
>
> This framework for analysis helps to explain why the two opposing sides in
> this controversy see the issue in such starkly different terms.
>
> Those opposed to same-sex marriage see marriage as an essentially
> heterosexual institution that is fundamental to human happiness and the
> well-being of civilization.  Those who support same-sex marriage see
> limiting marriage to heterosexuals as a way of exercising patriarchal
> oppression against sexual minorities.  Marriage is seen, therefore, as an
> obstacle to human happiness and autonomy that must be either destroyed or
> radically revised.  The quest for this radical revision is seen as an act of
> human liberation.  To the conservative, this is a mortal blow directed at
> the very heart of the culture.
>
> Moral conservatives see homosexual behaviors as matters of grave moral
> concern.  Moral liberals and libertarians see homosexuality as no more
> morally significant than the color of one's eyes.  It's just part of what
> makes some people who they are.
>
> Adding credence to Sowell's argument, a person's position on same-sex
> marriage is a very good predictor of positions held on other issues as well.
>  Careful observers know that this is no coincidence.  A cadre of liberal
> Hollywood celebrities supports same-sex marriage as what they call a civil
> rights issue and recently held fundraisers that produced millions of dollars
> to defeat Proposition 8.  Meanwhile, opposition to same-sex marriage is most
> discernable among conservative Christians and other conservative groups like
> the Mormons.
>
> The middle ground is fast disappearing, even as arguments based in a
> framework of natural law seem to carry no public force.  This leaves
> conservative Christians -- evangelicals in the main -- as the bulwark of
> opposition to same-sex marriage.  For evangelicals, the question is always a
> question of what the Bible teaches, and the Bible straightforwardly presents
> homosexual behaviors as immoral and sinful -- and in stark terms.
>
> Believers committed to biblical authority will find no way to avoid this
> controversy, and no ground for accepting the "fairness" argument.  If the
> Bible is the revealed Word of God, then we know that homosexuality is a sin
> of great spiritual consequence.  Those who reject the authority of the Bible
> will, in the end, likely come to accept some argument for the normalization
> of homosexuality and homosexual relationships.
>
> Despite their massive and contentious collision over this great question,
> the two opposing sides in this controversy are agreed on one major point --
> the importance of the issue.  Both sides believe that the victory of their
> position on this issue is a precondition for true human happiness and human
> thriving.  And, truth be known, both sides see the other camp as a threat to
> human happiness and well-being.
>
> To a significant degree, these opposing camps define almost all of reality
> in starkly different terms.  Both sides bring energy and passion to the
> public square.  Both sides see the controversy as a battle for the future of
> civilization.
>
> On that point, at least, both sides are right.
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> Find this article at: http://www.crosswalk.com/news/commentary/11583981/
>
> Corey Cook
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>



From ccook01 at knology.net  Mon Nov 10 07:05:16 2008
From: ccook01 at knology.net (Corey Cook)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 02:05:16 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Emailing: Last Days Ministries I'm Gay, O.K.
In-Reply-To: <4383d01d0811092230p556cf25bk342c1ae7d2a0e47b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <35A03D458698454A84A02B53EB5728FC@Buster><0AE2D4A5152D4796862C6EFB2E88D3AE@nickf1758c2c9d><4383d01d0811091933w2fff5563r4b7dc4d58c5eb47c@mail.gmail.com><005d01c942ec$28333750$5c85fe04@rjige047kjawst>
	<4383d01d0811092230p556cf25bk342c1ae7d2a0e47b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3574C3A0CD294C6AA70099C08FCE922A@TheCooksPC>

The bible shows Jesus loving those with disabilities.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 1:30 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Emailing: Last Days Ministries I'm Gay, O.K.


> You're all right about this.  But the Bible makes disabilities and
> blindness especially look bad.  Jesus heals a blind man, and back in
> he Biblical days, they didn't have Braille, slates and styli, the
> Braillewriter, or even more, the Internet, computers, JAWS, and this
> listserv.
> Think about it.
> It doesn't mention Jesus healing a homosexual.  Jesus never hung out
> with homosexuals.
> Did he?
> Beth
>
> On 11/9/08, rjs059 at peoplepc.com <rjs059 at peoplepc.com> wrote:
>> Beth, Marriage, Was a religious practice, long before the government even
>> became involved. And furthermore, It is conceder to be a sacrament in the
>> Catholic church.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:33 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Emailing: Last Days Ministries I'm Gay, O.K.
>>
>>
>>> Come on!  I've said it enough.  Marriage isn't going to just be
>>> "between ONE MAN and ONE WOMAN" enough these days.  Before you know
>>> it, Christians will interpret the Bible as being of the able-bodied to
>>> be perfect and capable of multiplyin and so on.  This is horrible!
>>> Bet
>>>
>>> On 11/9/08, trising at sbcglobal.net <trising at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>> That is an absolutely excellent article! All of us sin and fall short 
>>>> of
>>>> the
>>>> glory of God, whether we are gay or a gossip. Jesus loves all of us and
>>>> came
>>>> here to die in our place for our sins so we can go to heaven and be 
>>>> with
>>>> him. We will not go there if we do not trust in Him alone as the 
>>>> provider
>>>>
>>>> of
>>>> our salvation. People who commit any sin, and that means all of us,
>>>> deserve
>>>> to be loved, but not to have our sin excused or minimized. It is God's
>>>> design for marriage to be between one man and one woman. we as 
>>>> Christians
>>>> can stand up for what is right, while loving those caught in homosexual
>>>> sin.
>>>> Giving them special rights is wrong, but so is refusing to talk to 
>>>> them,
>>>> or
>>>> regarding them as someone God cannot save.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/rjs059%40peoplepc.com
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> Faith-talk:
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>
> _______________________________________________
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> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
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> Faith-talk:
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>
Corey Cook 




From ccook01 at knology.net  Mon Nov 10 07:12:40 2008
From: ccook01 at knology.net (Corey Cook)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 02:12:40 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] More about homosexuality.
In-Reply-To: <4383d01d0811092234h5b26ed37w4822ffe53389de8f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <45DA65A746C4427D84681755CC35CB99@Alan><F8B2126C6A1C48A987B58AE8BEEA3DBF@TheCooksPC>
	<4383d01d0811092234h5b26ed37w4822ffe53389de8f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2894E57C02CC4FAAA467693F0DABD048@TheCooksPC>

No Beth,
There are no verses speaking of Jesus hanging out with gays.
However, he did say sin did not cause the man to be blind.
Please don't read into scripture what is not there.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 1:34 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] More about homosexuality.


> What about the verses that speak of the blind man being healed?  As I
> said in a previous e-mail, what about Jesus hanging out with
> homosexuals?  Did he do that?  Um, somebody open their inner eyes.
> Beth
>
> On 11/9/08, Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net> wrote:
>> This is an excellent read.
>> I am going to post 4 articles here in a minute that bring some more light 
>> to
>> the issue.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Alan Wheeler" <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
>> To: <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 1:53 PM
>> Subject: [Faith-talk] More about homosexuality.
>>
>>
>>>I went to www.biblegateway.com to see what I could find about 
>>>homosexuality
>>>
>>>and the bible.  This was among the resources.  So, again I say, and this 
>>>is
>>>
>>>my last comment on the subject, if you disagree that marriage is only for
>>>men and women, then your argument is with God.  It's in His book.
>>>
>>> http://www.faithfacts.org/christ-and-the-culture/gay-rights#marriage
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sanctity of Marriage
>>> In recent years, the homosexual movement has centered on giving
>>> marriage-like benefits to gay couples. Many in the culture have 
>>> mistakenly
>>>
>>> concluded that marriage is merely an institution for the convenience of
>>> adults. In actuality, marriage is the bedrock institution for culture to
>>> sustain itself through having and nurturing children. There are
>>> complementary aspects to a man and woman that are important to the
>>> instutution of marriage which go beyond the obvious physical attributes.
>>> There are things that a man needs that can only be provided by a woman,
>>> and vice versa.
>>>
>>> These complementary aspects are important to the relationship of the
>>> couple itself, as well as to the children. One does not have to appeal 
>>> to
>>> religion to instinctively understand this. Yet statistics verify the
>>> structure of the traditional family as the approach to raising children
>>> that gives the best measurable results. The overwhelming body of social
>>> science research agrees that children do best when raised in homes with
>>> married, opposite-sex parents. Every child has the right to both a mom 
>>> and
>>>
>>> a dad.
>>>
>>> Yet we cannot divorce the institution of marriage from its theological
>>> roots. We acknowledge that marriage is an institution given by God
>>> (Genesis 2:24). The Creator of the Universe established the relationship
>>> between a man and a woman, thus it is a divine institution, not a human
>>> one. To confer marriage-like rights to gays is not the prerogative of
>>> people (Matthew 19:6). (This includes civil unions or domestic
>>> partnerships, as they are merely marriage by other names.) Defining
>>> marriage is the prerogative of God. Whatever may tend to undermine the
>>> institution of marriage would also undermine the authority of God, as 
>>> well
>>>
>>> as hurt society.
>>>
>>> Liberals may argue, "Why should we arbitrarily select only heterosexual
>>> couples for marriage? What can it hurt if two homosexuals want to 
>>> marry?"
>>> The answer is surprisingly simple. The institution of marriage between 
>>> and
>>>
>>> man a woman is not, in fact, arbitrary. It's purpose is clear and of
>>> utmost importance to society.
>>>
>>> David Orland in an article entitled "The Deceit of Gay Marriage" puts it
>>> very well. He says:
>>>
>>>  To justify giving privileges or exemptions or subsidies to some
>>> particular group in society, the benefit of doing so for society at 
>>> large
>>> must first be shown. With heterosexual marriage, the case is clear 
>>> enough.
>>>
>>> Heterosexual marriage is a matter of genuine social interest because the
>>> family is essential to society's reproduction. The crux of my argument, 
>>> in
>>>
>>> other words, was that married couples receive the benefits they do, not
>>> because the state is interested in promoting romantic love, or because 
>>> the
>>>
>>> Bible says so or because of the influence of special interest groups but
>>> rather because the next generation is something that is and should be of
>>> interest to all of us. And, by definition, this is not a case that can 
>>> be
>>> made for homosexual unions. To that degree, the attempt to turn the
>>> question of domestic partnership into a debate about fairness falls 
>>> flat.
>>>
>>>  The more persistent supporters of domestic partnership will of course
>>> respond to this argument by pointing to the case in which homosexual
>>> partners adopt children or, in the case of lesbians, undergo artificial
>>> insemination. The intention here is to show that the nuclear family is
>>> found even among homosexual couples and that, to that extent, homosexual
>>> unions do indeed meet the same criterion of social interest as
>>> heterosexual ones and thus should be granted legal status. It is a weak
>>> argument and one that ultimately back-fires on those who employ it. This
>>> is for two reasons:
>>>
>>>  First, adoption by homosexual couples is still exceedingly rare and the
>>> law-though many are surprised to learn this-is aimed at the general 
>>> case.
>>> To confer legal benefits on the entire class of would-be homosexual
>>> spouses just because some very small minority of this class approximates
>>> the pattern of the nuclear family would be a bit like admitting all
>>> applicants to a select university on the grounds that a few of them had
>>> been shown to meet the entrance requirements.
>>>
>>>  Second, the right of this small minority to the benefits of marriage is
>>> dubious in the extreme. Homosexual "families" of whatever type are 
>>> always
>>> and necessarily parasitic on heterosexual ones.
>>>
>>> Every child has the right to a mom and a dad. See 5 Reasons Why Same-Sex
>>> Marriage Harms Children.
>>>
>>> But homosexuals not only want fair treatment, they are pushing for 
>>> "Super
>>> Rights." According the Paul Cameron of the Family Research Institute:
>>>
>>>  "Every member of society has a duty to contribute to the commonwealth.
>>> Yet the empirical evidence indicates that those who engage in
>>> homosexuality 1) contribute less and cost more in goods and services, 2)
>>> disproportionately disrupt social functioning, and 3) have few children
>>> while being more apt to harm them. Thus, homosexual practioners not only
>>> fail to 'pay for their keep,' but by their negative influence on 
>>> children,
>>>
>>> cloud society's future.
>>>
>>>  Those who engage in homosexuality seek what they say are 'gay rights." 
>>> In
>>>
>>> reality, they are demanding Super Rights. Super Rights are those
>>> privileges that allow one to ovverride the inalienable rights of other
>>> citizens, such as freedom of speech and association. These Super
>>> Rights-which are conferred by 'non-discrimination,' 'hate crime,' and
>>> 'hate speech' laws-allow homosexuals, if they so choose, to endanger or
>>> punish those who would exercise their associational rights to avoid them
>>> or protect their children from them.
>>>
>>>  As an example, empirical studies to date indicate that a male teacher 
>>> who
>>>
>>> practices homosexuality is the most likely kind of teacher to sexually
>>> molest students. A principal knowing this may not want to hire a teacher
>>> who declares his homosexual interests. But if that teacher wants the 
>>> job,
>>> his Super Rights trump the associational rights of the principal as well
>>> as the right of students not to experience extra risk (especially since
>>> safety is part of their right to life). Parents renting out one side of
>>> their duplex may not want to place their children at risk by renting to 
>>> a
>>> gay couple. But if-even on a whim - the homosexuals want the duplex, 
>>> their
>>>
>>> Super Rights trump the property and associational rights of the parents 
>>> as
>>>
>>> well as their children's right not to be exposed to potential 
>>> molestation.
>>>
>>>  The Super Rights of homosexual practitioners also squelch the right of
>>> others to freedom of speech. If a broadcaster opines that homosexual sex
>>> is dangerous, but a homosexual finds such speech 'offensive,' his Super
>>> Rights trump the broadcaster's freedom of speech and the broadcaster may
>>> be fined or imprisoned."
>>>
>>> The concept of hate crimes seems particularly reprehensible. If one of
>>> your (heterosexual) loved ones is the object of a despicable crime, the
>>> perpetrator would receive a lesser punishment than someone who committed
>>> the same act against someone who practices homosexual sex!
>>>
>>> +-+-+-
>>>
>>>   He has made clear to you, O man, what is good; and what is desired 
>>> from
>>> you by the Lord; only doing what is
>>> right, and loving mercy, and walking without pride before your God. 
>>> Micah
>>> 6:8
>>> ~~~
>>>
>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>> www.theqonline.net
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>>>
>> Corey Cook
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>
Corey Cook 




From ccook01 at knology.net  Mon Nov 10 07:13:33 2008
From: ccook01 at knology.net (Corey Cook)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 02:13:33 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] article 2
In-Reply-To: <4383d01d0811092226p5f85cb5flb5d792fc4f5c4335@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6FC4D51897564B62B1781410DF39FCB3@TheCooksPC>
	<4383d01d0811092226p5f85cb5flb5d792fc4f5c4335@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F6E22E4B791B4316A8B2952557992B25@TheCooksPC>

Not twisted.
The truth.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 1:26 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] article 2


> Hah.  This is a very twisted debate.  I'm moving to the Netherlands if
> this keeps up. lol
> Beth
>
> On 11/9/08, Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net> wrote:
>> What's Really at Stake in the Gay Marriage Debate? Part 2
>> Albert Mohler
>> President, Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
>>
>> October 20, 2008
>>
>> Editor's Note: This article is the second in a series. Click here to read
>> part one.
>>
>> Same-sex marriage is, for now, legal in three of fifty states in the 
>> United
>> States.  Beyond our borders, it is legal in the Netherlands, Spain, 
>> Belgium,
>> South Africa, Canada and Norway.  This represents a very small percentage 
>> of
>> the world's population.  Same-sex marriage is, by any measure, the 
>> exception
>> rather than the rule.  Even when legalized civil unions and domestic
>> partnerships are thrown into the mix, the countries that consider 
>> same-sex
>> unions and heterosexual marriages to be equal before the law represent a
>> small percentage of the world's nations.
>>
>> Keep that in mind when you observe the media's coverage of the issue.  By
>> and large, the mainstream media have presented opposition to same-sex
>> marriage as the odd and out-of-step position and support for same-sex
>> marriage as the mainstream assumption.
>>
>> The San Francisco Chronicle now reports that conservative Christians
>> represent the major energy behind the promotion of Proposition 8 in
>> California.  The major media generally frame these Christians as out of 
>> step
>> with the times.   As the paper reports:
>>
>> Christian conservatives have come to dominate the religious debate
>> surrounding Prop. 8 - even though the Bible's statements on homosexuality
>> are complex and disputed among Christians.
>>
>> Catholics, Mormons and evangelicals have been contributing millions of
>> dollars and flying into the state from around the nation to lead rallies 
>> and
>> services that preach support for the measure.
>>
>> The paper describes the Bible's statements on homosexuality as "complex 
>> and
>> disputed."  Of course, this is only true in very recent years and within 
>> a
>> very thin slice of liberal Christianity.  Most Christians throughout the
>> history of the church -- and the vast majority of Christians alive 
>> today --
>> have no problem understanding what the Bible teaches about homosexuality.
>>
>> Take a very close look at these paragraphs:
>>
>> Liberal groups representing Christians, Jews and others are trying to 
>> defeat
>> the measure. But their efforts have been far more modest, even though
>> priests and rabbis in the Bay Area have played a pivotal role in creating
>> and cultivating a theology that includes lesbians and gays as equals to
>> heterosexuals.
>>
>> Conservatives and liberals generally use dramatically different lenses to
>> interpret the Bible. Christian conservatives tend to emphasize an
>> interpretation of the Bible that doesn't change with the times. They say 
>> the
>> Bible describes marriage as only between a man and a woman.
>>
>> "You've got the California Supreme Court rewriting sacred heritage," said
>> Steve Madsen, pastor of Cornerstone Fellowship, an evangelical megachurch 
>> in
>> Livermore.
>>
>> Liberal Christians tend to emphasize that divine revelation can come from
>> many places, even outside the church. For example, many denominations 
>> don't
>> allow same-sex marriages, while California law does.
>>
>> "Culture is going to manifest Christ in a way that summons the church to 
>> new
>> realities," said Episcopal Bishop Marc Andrus.
>>
>> These statements are incredibly revealing.  First, note that the paper
>> describes efforts to normalize homosexuality have included "creating and
>> cultivating a theology" that would serve their purposes.  That is a very
>> helpful (and accurate) explanation.  There is no way that the received
>> tradition can be twisted into support for same-sex marriage.
>>
>> Second, observe the fact that the paper recognizes that those on opposing
>> sides of this debate "use dramatically different lenses to interpret the
>> Bible."  That is an understatement, but represents another helpful
>> explanation.  The arguments put forth by proponents of same-sex marriage
>> come down to assertions that the Bible does not say what it plainly does
>> say, that Christians have misunderstood the critical passages until 
>> liberal
>> scholars pushing this agenda have just discovered what the passages 
>> really
>> mean, or that the Bible just has to be corrected in light of contemporary
>> developments.
>>
>> Third, note that the reporter explains that conservatives "say the Bible
>> describes marriage as only between a man and a woman."  Any honest reader
>> must acknowledge that the Bible describes marriage in exclusively
>> heterosexual terms.
>>
>> Fourth, on the other hand, note that liberals pushing for the 
>> normalization
>> of homosexual behaviors and relationships are described as believing that
>> "divine revelation can come from many places, even outside the church."
>> Episcopal Bishop Marc Andrus is quoted as saying, "Culture is going to
>> manifest Christ in a way that summons the church to new realities."  In
>> other words, who needs the Bible when you can just accept some new 
>> cultural
>> authority in its place?
>>
>> Proponents of same-sex marriage now attempt to argue that the only
>> opposition to legalized homosexual marriage comes from conservative
>> Christians pushing a narrow theological agenda.  They cannot possibly 
>> claim
>> that conservative Christians control the vast majority of the world's
>> nations in which same-sex marriage is decidedly not legal.
>>
>> Still, the fact that the San Francisco Chronicle felt the need to publish 
>> a
>> chart of Bible passages on homosexuality tells us something.  The very
>> existence of these passages still troubles the consciences of those 
>> pushing
>> the normalization of homosexuality -- whether within or without the 
>> church.
>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> In addition to being one of Salem's nationally syndicated radio talk show
>> hosts, R. Albert Mohler, Jr. is the president of The Southern Baptist
>> Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky and recognized as one of
>> America's leading theologians and cultural commentators. Contact Dr. 
>> Mohler
>> at mail at albertmohler.com.
>>
>> Find this article at: http://www.crosswalk.com/news/commentary/11583138/
>>
>> Corey Cook
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>
Corey Cook 




From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Mon Nov 10 08:26:31 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 02:26:31 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Emailing: Last Days Ministries I'm Gay, O.K.
References: <35A03D458698454A84A02B53EB5728FC@Buster><0AE2D4A5152D4796862C6EFB2E88D3AE@nickf1758c2c9d>
	<4383d01d0811091933w2fff5563r4b7dc4d58c5eb47c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55294843908A4E0AB4F30B6E9564A0A4@Alan>

Why do you keep trying to argue against what God instituted in the Bible?  Are you saying that something that God gave us is insufficient?  If so, that is borderline blasphemous.  So that you see for yourself where God designed marriage, here is Genesis 2: 18-24.  If this doesn't convince you, nothing will:
Genesis 2

18 Yahweh God said, "It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him."
19 Out of the ground Yahweh God formed every animal of the field, and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them. Whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name.
20 The man gave names to all cattle, and to the birds of the sky, and to every animal of the field; but for man there was not found a helper suitable for him.
21 Yahweh God caused a deep sleep to fall on the man, and he slept; and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place.
22 He made the rib, which Yahweh God had taken from the man, into a woman, and brought her to the man.
23 The man said, "This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh. She will be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man."
24 Therefore a man will leave his father and his mother, and will join with his wife, and they will be one flesh.

It says nothing about Adam having a male partner, or Eve having a female partner.

Jesus even reaffirms the male-female relationship in Matthew:
Matthew 19

4 He answered, "Haven't you read that he who made them from the beginning made them male and female,
5 and said, 'For this cause a man shall leave his father and mother, and shall join to his wife; and the two shall become one flesh?'
6 So that they are no more two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, don't let man tear apart."

So, if you think this way of thinking is hurtful to your friends, you are accusing God of being hurtful to your friends.  That is not a fair claim.  You and your friends may dislike God's definition of marriage, but that doesn't make God hurtful.



 
+-+-+-

   There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. 
 1 Samuel 2:2
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 9:33 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Emailing: Last Days Ministries I'm Gay, O.K.


> Come on!  I've said it enough.  Marriage isn't going to just be
> "between ONE MAN and ONE WOMAN" enough these days.  Before you know
> it, Christians will interpret the Bible as being of the able-bodied to
> be perfect and capable of multiplyin and so on.  This is horrible!
> Bet
> 
> On 11/9/08, trising at sbcglobal.net <trising at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> That is an absolutely excellent article! All of us sin and fall short of the
>> glory of God, whether we are gay or a gossip. Jesus loves all of us and came
>> here to die in our place for our sins so we can go to heaven and be with
>> him. We will not go there if we do not trust in Him alone as the provider of
>> our salvation. People who commit any sin, and that means all of us, deserve
>> to be loved, but not to have our sin excused or minimized. It is God's
>> design for marriage to be between one man and one woman. we as Christians
>> can stand up for what is right, while loving those caught in homosexual sin.
>> Giving them special rights is wrong, but so is refusing to talk to them, or
>> regarding them as someone God cannot save.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com


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From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Mon Nov 10 08:28:46 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 02:28:46 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
References: <E9B0A7C28DD444F7ADC7CB300F67830F@your4dacd0ea75><20081109035831.9E797AC853@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net><4383d01d0811090529o40db51do77b90bee606dc92b@mail.gmail.com><34EE51212347460BBC336CEB5D414D5A@Alan><4383d01d0811090844o4496c680xf7c1eb301ac76b6f@mail.gmail.com><F8F4968EFA6F4D5DA9552449802050AF@Alan><4383d01d0811091241x6bcba8fyf245b5a9bae3889c@mail.gmail.com>
	<BF6C2124D14B4948B54CF0B42B2893C7@lynnwhitePC>
Message-ID: <39A6494F5F9E4CA88F2152F1EAD91596@Alan>

Precisely!  Whenever we proclaim God's truths, we get called mean, spiteful and hurtful.  We're just the messengers.  If they think God's truths are so mean and hurtful, they ought to talk to God...not to us.


+-+-+-

   There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. 
 1 Samuel 2:2
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "BMW" <lynnwhite51 at sbcglobal.net>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 9:27 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations


> Actually, it's the other way around.  We have never tried to force 
> Christianity down anybody.
> 
> But, as our society has become less and less godly, the sinner has succeeded 
> in duping society into believing that we are discriminating because we 
> continue to remind people of what God says in his word.
> 
> Why don't we have laws that say that murderers are welcomed as full 
> citizens?  Lets celebrate Thieves Day at our amusement parks.
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 2:41 PM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
> 
> 
>> We're talking about a country where not everybody believes in God.  We
>> Christians are shoving God down the throats of those who don't know
>> him.  We need to pray for the homosexuals and those who are
>> experiencing a so-called sin ad we need to be nicer to these people
>> for God's own sake.
>> Beth
>>
>> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>> At the same time, homosexuality is called a sin and abomination by God. 
>>> So
>>> you think we should allow people to continue to sin against God?
>>>
>>>
>>> +-+-+-
>>>
>>>    We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, 
>>> to
>>> those
>>> who are called according to his purpose.
>>>  Romans 8:28
>>> ~~~
>>>
>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>> www.theqonline.net
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:44 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>
>>>
>>>>I would have toagree with Julie.  Marriage is about love, not
>>>> procreative reasons only.  I've known friends who've gotten married as
>>>> nonprocreative peoples.  Also, has anybody thought that marriage
>>>> should at least be for those that can participate in it as well?
>>>> Also, if we have bans on same-sex marriage, think of it this way: we
>>>> are forcing religion on the people, which God really doesn't want us
>>>> to do.  To be Christ-like is not to shove God down the throats of
>>>> those who don't know him, but to spread God's love to them, to let
>>>> them be free people.
>>>> Beth
>>>>
>>>> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>> Beth,
>>>>> I gently disagree with you.  Marriage was designed by God to be between 
>>>>> a
>>>>> man and a woman.  Don't take issue because I said it.  Study the Bible
>>>>> and
>>>>> if you still don't like it, then you have to take it up with God.  It 
>>>>> was
>>>>> His idea to begin with, not man's.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> +-+-+-
>>>>>
>>>>>    The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he 
>>>>> is
>>>>> my
>>>>> God, and I will prepare him an
>>>>>  habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.
>>>>>  Exodus 15:2
>>>>> ~~~
>>>>>
>>>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>>>> www.theqonline.net
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 7:29 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>I don't care if Obama's half-black.  God's people will come to
>>>>>> understand a few things:
>>>>>> 1. Marriage, for example, is not between "one man and one woman".  It
>>>>>> is between two able parties, same o different sex, that are actually
>>>>>> willing to stay together.  Our high divorce rate of heterosexual
>>>>>> couples mostly is bad for our children herein America.
>>>>>> 2. Abortion should never happen.  If it's something that has to do
>>>>>> with the mother's life and health, then that's the only exception.
>>>>>> But rape and birth control reasons are not good ones.
>>>>>> 3. Blind people can and wwill have equal rights to vote, gain security
>>>>>> benefits, and so on.  Yes, Obama's the most liberal, but we need him.
>>>>>> Maybe he's a lot more Christian than Bush was.  But God's people must
>>>>>> not be against him.  I'm a Catholic, and I'm also a liberal as well.
>>>>>> Obama has also beat Kennedy by so many years.  ANything having to do
>>>>>> with race is out as far as I'm concerned.  Next, what will happen when
>>>>>> a woman is in the White House?  What about a blind woman? lol
>>>>>> Beth
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/8/08, Linda Mentink <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi Julie,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm sorry, too.  I'm not against our president elect because he's
>>>>>>> black.  Fact is, he's half black.  That's neither here nor
>>>>>>> there.  It's mainly because he's the most liberal of all in Congress,
>>>>>>> and I believe that a lot of our rights will be taken away once he is
>>>>>>> sworn in.  We'll see what happens, but I'm praying for him, and all
>>>>>>> the rest in authority over us.  I sent those things to you because I
>>>>>>> knew you wouldn't find out from the mainstream media.  But the
>>>>>>> election has made history, and God's people need to be more vigilent
>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>> ever.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Blessings,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Linda
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> At 03:33 PM 11/8/2008, you wrote:
>>>>>>>>It happened by accident.  When you didn't stop attacking in my
>>>>>>>>in-box--those of you who did it--people of other races by way of our
>>>>>>>>new President-elect, I wrote what I wrote.  Now you know how false
>>>>>>>>accusations hurt everybody.  Because of one man the African-American
>>>>>>>>Church, and people who attend them, have been under tremendous
>>>>>>>>attack ever since last March with no let-up.  Ever since I began
>>>>>>>>attending and became saved in African-American churches in 1972,
>>>>>>>>I've heard dirty, dirty comments like:  "they just do in their
>>>>>>>>church what they did in the slave days."  In the slave days,
>>>>>>>>African-Americans weren't permitted to know anything of the Bible
>>>>>>>>but "Servants obey your masters in the Lord for this is right.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>If people say what people have said about one another's churches
>>>>>>>>ever since last March, referring to us as blind people, we'd be up
>>>>>>>>in arms.  Let us all be more careful.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>It hit me like a thunderbolt while I was playing piano at a senior
>>>>>>>>citizens building today why you all were upset.  And as upset as you
>>>>>>>>were last Thursday night, Linda, I was that upset one month ago when
>>>>>>>>I read what you particularly sent me privately at 5:00 on a Sunday
>>>>>>>>morning while  I was getting ready for church.  I'm sorry and maybe
>>>>>>>>we can understand one another better now.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  has been
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a
>>>>>>>>human soul," American Humorist Mark Twain
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth
>>>>>>>>Jernigan, Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and
>>>>>>>>their contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push,
>>>>>>>> 1976.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can
>>>>>>>>be reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic,"
>>>>>>>>the Late Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation
>>>>>>>>of the Blind.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>for Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
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>>>>> 11/8/2008
>>>>> 6:49 PM
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>> 2:14 PM
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>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/lynnwhite51%40sbcglobal.net 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com


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From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Mon Nov 10 08:36:39 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 02:36:39 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Discussion
References: <20081110040703.1E100CCAF8@relay04.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
Message-ID: <8F1CD78B21F94CAFB33FDF1149D17705@Alan>

Amen amen and amen, Linda!

I know for me, personally, that living apart is a daily struggle as I wrestle with sin and my flesh and all the earthly desires that come with it.  I am not perfect, I don't claim to be perfect, but I do know and understand what God's word says, and I do my best to proclaim it.


+-+-+-

   There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. 
 1 Samuel 2:2
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Linda Mentink" <mentink at frontiernet.net>
To: <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:07 PM
Subject: [Faith-talk] Discussion


> Hi all,
> 
> I have had my computer off since last night, but have read all the 
> messages, except the articles.
> 
> Now, I'm speaking as a list member, and not the moderator, just so 
> we're clear here.  I believe the Bible--all of it.  It lays out very 
> clearly what sin is, what marriage is, what being a Christian is, and 
> much, much more.   The Bible says that homosexuality is a sin, and 
> there are no true Christians who practice this as a lifestyle.   As 
> has been said here, it's not our opinion; God doesn't care what we 
> think, but what we believe His Word, the Bible, to say.  The Bible is 
> the Christian's guidebook.
> 
> Because we are being forced to forget God in many public arenas, we 
> as a nation are not following His Word.  We are to love the sinner, 
> but not the sin.  Enough said from me on that point.
> 
> I encourage all of you to daily read and study your Bibles, and apply 
> what you read to your lives each day.  Most in this country are not 
> believers, Christians, so we should expect them to behave as they 
> do.  We who call ourselves Christians should live separate, holy 
> lives, that we might win others to Christ.  That means how we dress, 
> what music we listen to, how we speak, how we spend our time, what we 
> read, who we hang around with, etc.  Things are going to get worse 
> for us here, so we'd better be grounded in the Word of God, and stay 
> close to Him in prayer.
> 
> Blessings,
> 
> Linda
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com


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From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Mon Nov 10 08:38:07 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 02:38:07 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Emailing: Last Days Ministries I'm Gay, O.K.
References: <35A03D458698454A84A02B53EB5728FC@Buster><0AE2D4A5152D4796862C6EFB2E88D3AE@nickf1758c2c9d><4383d01d0811091933w2fff5563r4b7dc4d58c5eb47c@mail.gmail.com>
	<51F80346922741C993A5556C1CC6DECD@TheCooksPC>
Message-ID: <2348B6A4FBE4458DAADE9F4B70D3884A@Alan>

Here here!  Christianity never said anything about the disabled never having children.  


+-+-+-

   There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. 
 1 Samuel 2:2
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Corey Cook" <ccook01 at knology.net>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Emailing: Last Days Ministries I'm Gay, O.K.


> Christians have always believed marriage is between a man and a woman. 
> Christians have never said only the able bodied should have kids.
> In many ways Christian groups have lead in helping those of us who are not 
> "abled"
> Please get the facts right.
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:33 PM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Emailing: Last Days Ministries I'm Gay, O.K.
> 
> 
>> Come on!  I've said it enough.  Marriage isn't going to just be
>> "between ONE MAN and ONE WOMAN" enough these days.  Before you know
>> it, Christians will interpret the Bible as being of the able-bodied to
>> be perfect and capable of multiplyin and so on.  This is horrible!
>> Bet
>>
>> On 11/9/08, trising at sbcglobal.net <trising at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> That is an absolutely excellent article! All of us sin and fall short of 
>>> the
>>> glory of God, whether we are gay or a gossip. Jesus loves all of us and 
>>> came
>>> here to die in our place for our sins so we can go to heaven and be with
>>> him. We will not go there if we do not trust in Him alone as the provider 
>>> of
>>> our salvation. People who commit any sin, and that means all of us, 
>>> deserve
>>> to be loved, but not to have our sin excused or minimized. It is God's
>>> design for marriage to be between one man and one woman. we as Christians
>>> can stand up for what is right, while loving those caught in homosexual 
>>> sin.
>>> Giving them special rights is wrong, but so is refusing to talk to them, 
>>> or
>>> regarding them as someone God cannot save.
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>>
> Corey Cook 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com


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From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Mon Nov 10 08:39:41 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 02:39:41 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] More about homosexuality.
References: <45DA65A746C4427D84681755CC35CB99@Alan><4383d01d0811091253x2afd9cffu8fc0dcd74995a54d@mail.gmail.com>
	<31C23822BE7246E2A07426880ABA96D4@lynnwhitePC>
Message-ID: <16EA909B14794492A62FEF158FC47783@Alan>

Yes, and her view also accuses God of not being "progressive" in His thinking.  That makes no sense.

I say that because all any of us is doing is trying to live by God's standards, not any we as humans created...but the standards God gave us in His word.


+-+-+-

   There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. 
 1 Samuel 2:2
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "BMW" <lynnwhite51 at sbcglobal.net>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 9:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] More about homosexuality.


> well, Beth, your view goes against the old and new Testament.  Nobody is 
> being a bigot or anything like that.
> 
> What do you do with the verses that speak against adultery, drunkardness, 
> slanderers, fornicators?  Paul says that all of have fit into one of these 
> categories before we were forgiven.
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 2:53 PM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] More about homosexuality.
> 
> 
>> Allan, this article is severely biased and is hurtful to homosexual
>> friends of mine.  Thank God they didn't read this.  To be honest, I
>> love my friends, all my friends heterosexual and homosexual.  Every
>> kid has the right to two loving parents, but not necessarily a mom and
>> a dad.  Gay couples and lesbian couples are still adoptable couples.
>> I've seen a lesbian couple that adopted two Cree First Nations
>> children.  I saw a gay couple adopt special needs twins who had
>> addiction problems.  This country needs to be more progressive and
>> stop attacking homosexuals because they are homosexuals.  Before you
>> know it, Allan, this country will put blind and visually impaired
>> people as well as cognitively disabled people in their places: along
>> with the homosexuals, below sighted and heterosexual people.  Before
>> you know it, Allan, African Americans will be kicked out of office and
>> there will be an assassination attempt on Barack Obama, who I hope
>> will reign for eight long and healthy years.  Please watch what you're
>> saying!  We're all Christians on this list!  Can't we accept others'
>> beliefs and opinions here?  I'm not trying to be psychic and prophetic
>> here, but please understand that I am very concerned that this nation
>> is going to fall down like Rome did and we won't have a very healthy
>> end if you know what I mean.  And not everybody believes in God.  And
>> God loves everybody, and even though it is written that homosexuality
>> is a sin, attacking homosexuals who are not atracted and refuse to be
>> attracted to the opposite sex is wrong.  We cannot an will not attack
>> others because they are a different brand of homo sapiens sapiens.
>> Beth
>>
>> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>> I went to www.biblegateway.com to see what I could find about 
>>> homosexuality
>>> and the bible.  This was among the resources.  So, again I say, and this 
>>> is
>>> my last comment on the subject, if you disagree that marriage is only for
>>> men and women, then your argument is with God.  It's in His book.
>>>
>>> http://www.faithfacts.org/christ-and-the-culture/gay-rights#marriage
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  Sanctity of Marriage
>>> In recent years, the homosexual movement has centered on giving
>>> marriage-like benefits to gay couples. Many in the culture have 
>>> mistakenly
>>> concluded that marriage is merely an institution for the convenience of
>>> adults. In actuality, marriage is the bedrock institution for culture to
>>> sustain itself through having and nurturing children. There are
>>> complementary aspects to a man and woman that are important to the
>>> instutution of marriage which go beyond the obvious physical attributes.
>>> There are things that a man needs that can only be provided by a woman, 
>>> and
>>> vice versa.
>>>
>>> These complementary aspects are important to the relationship of the 
>>> couple
>>> itself, as well as to the children. One does not have to appeal to 
>>> religion
>>> to instinctively understand this. Yet statistics verify the structure of 
>>> the
>>> traditional family as the approach to raising children that gives the 
>>> best
>>> measurable results. The overwhelming body of social science research 
>>> agrees
>>> that children do best when raised in homes with married, opposite-sex
>>> parents. Every child has the right to both a mom and a dad.
>>>
>>> Yet we cannot divorce the institution of marriage from its theological
>>> roots. We acknowledge that marriage is an institution given by God 
>>> (Genesis
>>> 2:24). The Creator of the Universe established the relationship between a
>>> man and a woman, thus it is a divine institution, not a human one. To 
>>> confer
>>> marriage-like rights to gays is not the prerogative of people (Matthew
>>> 19:6). (This includes civil unions or domestic partnerships, as they are
>>> merely marriage by other names.) Defining marriage is the prerogative of
>>> God. Whatever may tend to undermine the institution of marriage would 
>>> also
>>> undermine the authority of God, as well as hurt society.
>>>
>>> Liberals may argue, "Why should we arbitrarily select only heterosexual
>>> couples for marriage? What can it hurt if two homosexuals want to marry?"
>>> The answer is surprisingly simple. The institution of marriage between 
>>> and
>>> man a woman is not, in fact, arbitrary. It's purpose is clear and of 
>>> utmost
>>> importance to society.
>>>
>>> David Orland in an article entitled "The Deceit of Gay Marriage" puts it
>>> very well. He says:
>>>
>>>   To justify giving privileges or exemptions or subsidies to some 
>>> particular
>>> group in society, the benefit of doing so for society at large must first 
>>> be
>>> shown. With heterosexual marriage, the case is clear enough. Heterosexual
>>> marriage is a matter of genuine social interest because the family is
>>> essential to society's reproduction. The crux of my argument, in other
>>> words, was that married couples receive the benefits they do, not because
>>> the state is interested in promoting romantic love, or because the Bible
>>> says so or because of the influence of special interest groups but rather
>>> because the next generation is something that is and should be of 
>>> interest
>>> to all of us. And, by definition, this is not a case that can be made for
>>> homosexual unions. To that degree, the attempt to turn the question of
>>> domestic partnership into a debate about fairness falls flat.
>>>
>>>   The more persistent supporters of domestic partnership will of course
>>> respond to this argument by pointing to the case in which homosexual
>>> partners adopt children or, in the case of lesbians, undergo artificial
>>> insemination. The intention here is to show that the nuclear family is 
>>> found
>>> even among homosexual couples and that, to that extent, homosexual unions 
>>> do
>>> indeed meet the same criterion of social interest as heterosexual ones 
>>> and
>>> thus should be granted legal status. It is a weak argument and one that
>>> ultimately back-fires on those who employ it. This is for two reasons:
>>>
>>>   First, adoption by homosexual couples is still exceedingly rare and the
>>> law-though many are surprised to learn this-is aimed at the general case. 
>>> To
>>> confer legal benefits on the entire class of would-be homosexual spouses
>>> just because some very small minority of this class approximates the 
>>> pattern
>>> of the nuclear family would be a bit like admitting all applicants to a
>>> select university on the grounds that a few of them had been shown to 
>>> meet
>>> the entrance requirements.
>>>
>>>   Second, the right of this small minority to the benefits of marriage is
>>> dubious in the extreme. Homosexual "families" of whatever type are always
>>> and necessarily parasitic on heterosexual ones.
>>>
>>> Every child has the right to a mom and a dad. See 5 Reasons Why Same-Sex
>>> Marriage Harms Children.
>>>
>>> But homosexuals not only want fair treatment, they are pushing for "Super
>>> Rights." According the Paul Cameron of the Family Research Institute:
>>>
>>>   "Every member of society has a duty to contribute to the commonwealth. 
>>> Yet
>>> the empirical evidence indicates that those who engage in homosexuality 
>>> 1)
>>> contribute less and cost more in goods and services, 2) 
>>> disproportionately
>>> disrupt social functioning, and 3) have few children while being more apt 
>>> to
>>> harm them. Thus, homosexual practioners not only fail to 'pay for their
>>> keep,' but by their negative influence on children, cloud society's 
>>> future.
>>>
>>>   Those who engage in homosexuality seek what they say are 'gay rights." 
>>> In
>>> reality, they are demanding Super Rights. Super Rights are those 
>>> privileges
>>> that allow one to ovverride the inalienable rights of other citizens, 
>>> such
>>> as freedom of speech and association. These Super Rights-which are 
>>> conferred
>>> by 'non-discrimination,' 'hate crime,' and 'hate speech' laws-allow
>>> homosexuals, if they so choose, to endanger or punish those who would
>>> exercise their associational rights to avoid them or protect their 
>>> children
>>> from them.
>>>
>>>   As an example, empirical studies to date indicate that a male teacher 
>>> who
>>> practices homosexuality is the most likely kind of teacher to sexually
>>> molest students. A principal knowing this may not want to hire a teacher 
>>> who
>>> declares his homosexual interests. But if that teacher wants the job, his
>>> Super Rights trump the associational rights of the principal as well as 
>>> the
>>> right of students not to experience extra risk (especially since safety 
>>> is
>>> part of their right to life). Parents renting out one side of their 
>>> duplex
>>> may not want to place their children at risk by renting to a gay couple. 
>>> But
>>> if-even on a whim - the homosexuals want the duplex, their Super Rights
>>> trump the property and associational rights of the parents as well as 
>>> their
>>> children's right not to be exposed to potential molestation.
>>>
>>>   The Super Rights of homosexual practitioners also squelch the right of
>>> others to freedom of speech. If a broadcaster opines that homosexual sex 
>>> is
>>> dangerous, but a homosexual finds such speech 'offensive,' his Super 
>>> Rights
>>> trump the broadcaster's freedom of speech and the broadcaster may be 
>>> fined
>>> or imprisoned."
>>>
>>> The concept of hate crimes seems particularly reprehensible. If one of 
>>> your
>>> (heterosexual) loved ones is the object of a despicable crime, the
>>> perpetrator would receive a lesser punishment than someone who committed 
>>> the
>>> same act against someone who practices homosexual sex!
>>>
>>> +-+-+-
>>>
>>>    He has made clear to you, O man, what is good; and what is desired 
>>> from
>>> you by the Lord; only doing what is
>>>  right, and loving mercy, and walking without pride before your God. 
>>> Micah
>>> 6:8
>>> ~~~
>>>
>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>> www.theqonline.net
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/lynnwhite51%40sbcglobal.net 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com


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From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Mon Nov 10 08:40:43 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 02:40:43 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
References: <17B22BE1EC2F45149C8C36923C19FEB3@TheCooksPC><356348.90200.qm@web51909.mail.re2.yahoo.com><4383d01d0811091912k5b4dd09bud3bef5c09b3e90fb@mail.gmail.com>
	<98D90F132DE0435A98DFE53D103F3590@lynnwhitePC>
Message-ID: <5D528EA96D1449159919622EDB5A93B1@Alan>

I am trying to help her see that as well.  I told her I was going to stop trying, but God has put it on my heart to not give up as long as I can talk to her with the love of Christ.


+-+-+-

   There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. 
 1 Samuel 2:2
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "BMW" <lynnwhite51 at sbcglobal.net>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 9:49 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations


> Beth, sex outside of the relationship between a husband and wife is a sin.
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> To: <timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com>; "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and 
> religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 9:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
> 
> 
>> Okay, if homosexuality is a sin, guess what?  What about the
>> homosexuals who have homosexual relations with each other and cannot
>> be attracted to opposite sex members?  I again may mention that I have
>> friends who are gay/lesbian.  And I am pleased with Obama in the white
>> house.  God knows what's best, and I believe in a God who loves all,
>> and God knows that homosexuality is a sin, but it is a sin between
>> those who can physically have someone of the opposite sex along with
>> being attracted with someone of the opposite sex.  Take my
>> ex-boyfriend for instance.  He likes women, but if he went to sleep
>> with a young college friend of mine who I know is attracted to girls,
>> THAT is a sin.  But if my friend who is lesbian went to sleep with the
>> equally lesbian girlfriend, it is not a sin.  We must love everybody
>> unconditionally, and we must not say that they are committing a sin
>> unless they really are and have the brain chemicals made up so that
>> they are attracted to someone of the opposite sex.  I am attracted to
>> menh, so if I went to sleep with my college roommate, for instance,
>> that would be a in in itself.  I am blind, and if I married a blind
>> man, that would be fine.  But the way this country and the bible seems
>> to be interpreted, homosexuality would be stomped out and next will be
>> blindness.  Before we know it, our listservs will be in jeopardy, an
>> then, we wouldn't be able to marry, write, read, go to college, and if
>> the Terrorists get our country, and that is if Barack Obama's not
>> watching over us, we will be wearing veils if we're female.  I for one
>> do not want any ore arguments about homosexuality to ever pop up again
>> on this listserv.  I want to play it straight: it may be a sin, but
>> unfortunately, nobody understands the homosexual cannot be changed if
>> they are truly homosexual.  I understand my friends, and they are good
>> people.  They are going to college and they are going to be band and
>> chorus teachers.  Do you people thin that these girls I'm friends with
>> shouldn't be band and chorus teachers to young children because they
>> are homosexuals?  According to the weird article I read, yes.  But I'd
>> hire them any time.
>> Anyway, that's my soap box for today.
>> Beth
>>
>> On 11/9/08, Frank Lordi <timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> you are speakin gof the concept of 'blood guilt'?
>>>
>>> This so often brought grief to Isreal, no?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --- On Sun, 11/9/08, Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> From: Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>> To: "Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 8:44 PM
>>>> Homosexuality is sin.
>>>> Read Romans 1
>>>> read first Corinthians 6
>>>> Yes we need to love them just as we love all sinners, but
>>>> it is time to call it what it is, and that is sin!
>>>> It is a sin that will be the end of this country if we
>>>> allow it to be accepted and embraced.
>>>> Not a popular thought, but a true one.
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Wheeler"
>>>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and
>>>> religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 6:29 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > Never mind.  I keep telling you it is called a sin in
>>>> the bible...if you don't want to believe that God calls
>>>> it a sin, I can't say anything to sway you.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > +-+-+-
>>>> >
>>>> >   There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none
>>>> beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
>>>> > 1 Samuel 2:2
>>>> > ~~~
>>>> >
>>>> > Alan D Wheeler
>>>> > awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>> > IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>> > Skype: redwheel1
>>>> > Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM
>>>> eastern time at www.theqonline.net
>>>> >
>>>> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beth"
>>>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>> > To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and
>>>> religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> > Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 2:41 PM
>>>> > Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >> We're talking about a country where not
>>>> everybody believes in God.  We
>>>> >> Christians are shoving God down the throats of
>>>> those who don't know
>>>> >> him.  We need to pray for the homosexuals and
>>>> those who are
>>>> >> experiencing a so-called sin ad we need to be
>>>> nicer to these people
>>>> >> for God's own sake.
>>>> >> Beth
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler
>>>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>>> >>> At the same time, homosexuality is called a
>>>> sin and abomination by God. So
>>>> >>> you think we should allow people to continue
>>>> to sin against God?
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> +-+-+-
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>    We know that all things work together for
>>>> good for those who love God, to
>>>> >>> those
>>>> >>> who are called according to his purpose.
>>>> >>>  Romans 8:28
>>>> >>> ~~~
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Alan D Wheeler
>>>> >>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>> >>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>> >>> Skype: redwheel1
>>>> >>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1
>>>> PM eastern time at
>>>> >>> www.theqonline.net
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> >>> From: "Beth"
>>>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>> >>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of
>>>> faith and religion"
>>>> >>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> >>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:44 AM
>>>> >>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> I would have toagree with Julie.  Marriage
>>>> is about love, not
>>>> >>>> procreative reasons only.  I've known
>>>> friends who've gotten married as
>>>> >>>> nonprocreative peoples.  Also, has anybody
>>>> thought that marriage
>>>> >>>> should at least be for those that can
>>>> participate in it as well?
>>>> >>>> Also, if we have bans on same-sex
>>>> marriage, think of it this way: we
>>>> >>>> are forcing religion on the people, which
>>>> God really doesn't want us
>>>> >>>> to do.  To be Christ-like is not to shove
>>>> God down the throats of
>>>> >>>> those who don't know him, but to
>>>> spread God's love to them, to let
>>>> >>>> them be free people.
>>>> >>>> Beth
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler
>>>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>>> Beth,
>>>> >>>>> I gently disagree with you.  Marriage
>>>> was designed by God to be between a
>>>> >>>>> man and a woman.  Don't take issue
>>>> because I said it.  Study the Bible
>>>> >>>>> and
>>>> >>>>> if you still don't like it, then
>>>> you have to take it up with God.  It was
>>>> >>>>> His idea to begin with, not man's.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> +-+-+-
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>    The LORD is my strength and song,
>>>> and he is become my salvation: he is
>>>> >>>>> my
>>>> >>>>> God, and I will prepare him an
>>>> >>>>>  habitation; my father's God, and
>>>> I will exalt him.
>>>> >>>>>  Exodus 15:2
>>>> >>>>> ~~~
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>>> >>>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>> >>>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>> >>>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>>> >>>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10
>>>> AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>>> >>>>> www.theqonline.net
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> >>>>> From: "Beth"
>>>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>> >>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the
>>>> discussion of faith and religion"
>>>> >>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 7:29
>>>> AM
>>>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False
>>>> Accusations
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> I don't care if Obama's
>>>> half-black.  God's people will come to
>>>> >>>>>> understand a few things:
>>>> >>>>>> 1. Marriage, for example, is not
>>>> between "one man and one woman".  It
>>>> >>>>>> is between two able parties, same
>>>> o different sex, that are actually
>>>> >>>>>> willing to stay together.  Our
>>>> high divorce rate of heterosexual
>>>> >>>>>> couples mostly is bad for our
>>>> children herein America.
>>>> >>>>>> 2. Abortion should never happen.
>>>> If it's something that has to do
>>>> >>>>>> with the mother's life and
>>>> health, then that's the only exception.
>>>> >>>>>> But rape and birth control reasons
>>>> are not good ones.
>>>> >>>>>> 3. Blind people can and wwill have
>>>> equal rights to vote, gain security
>>>> >>>>>> benefits, and so on.  Yes,
>>>> Obama's the most liberal, but we need him.
>>>> >>>>>> Maybe he's a lot more
>>>> Christian than Bush was.  But God's people must
>>>> >>>>>> not be against him.  I'm a
>>>> Catholic, and I'm also a liberal as well.
>>>> >>>>>> Obama has also beat Kennedy by so
>>>> many years.  ANything having to do
>>>> >>>>>> with race is out as far as I'm
>>>> concerned.  Next, what will happen when
>>>> >>>>>> a woman is in the White House?
>>>> What about a blind woman? lol
>>>> >>>>>> Beth
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> On 11/8/08, Linda Mentink
>>>> <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Julie,
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> I'm sorry, too.  I'm
>>>> not against our president elect because he's
>>>> >>>>>>> black.  Fact is, he's half
>>>> black.  That's neither here nor
>>>> >>>>>>> there.  It's mainly
>>>> because he's the most liberal of all in Congress,
>>>> >>>>>>> and I believe that a lot of
>>>> our rights will be taken away once he is
>>>> >>>>>>> sworn in.  We'll see what
>>>> happens, but I'm praying for him, and all
>>>> >>>>>>> the rest in authority over us.
>>>>  I sent those things to you because I
>>>> >>>>>>> knew you wouldn't find out
>>>> from the mainstream media.  But the
>>>> >>>>>>> election has made history, and
>>>> God's people need to be more vigilent
>>>> >>>>>>> than
>>>> >>>>>>> ever.
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> Blessings,
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> Linda
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> At 03:33 PM 11/8/2008, you
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>>> It happened by accident.
>>>> When you didn't stop attacking in my
>>>> >>>>>>>> in-box--those of you who
>>>> did it--people of other races by way of our
>>>> >>>>>>>> new President-elect, I
>>>> wrote what I wrote.  Now you know how false
>>>> >>>>>>>> accusations hurt
>>>> everybody.  Because of one man the African-American
>>>> >>>>>>>> Church, and people who
>>>> attend them, have been under tremendous
>>>> >>>>>>>> attack ever since last
>>>> March with no let-up.  Ever since I began
>>>> >>>>>>>> attending and became saved
>>>> in African-American churches in 1972,
>>>> >>>>>>>> I've heard dirty,
>>>> dirty comments like:  "they just do in their
>>>> >>>>>>>> church what they did in
>>>> the slave days."  In the slave days,
>>>> >>>>>>>> African-Americans
>>>> weren't permitted to know anything of the Bible
>>>> >>>>>>>> but "Servants obey
>>>> your masters in the Lord for this is right.
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> If people say what people
>>>> have said about one another's churches
>>>> >>>>>>>> ever since last March,
>>>> referring to us as blind people, we'd be up
>>>> >>>>>>>> in arms.  Let us all be
>>>> more careful.
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> It hit me like a
>>>> thunderbolt while I was playing piano at a senior
>>>> >>>>>>>> citizens building today
>>>> why you all were upset.  And as upset as you
>>>> >>>>>>>> were last Thursday night,
>>>> Linda, I was that upset one month ago when
>>>> >>>>>>>> I read what you
>>>> particularly sent me privately at 5:00 on a Sunday
>>>> >>>>>>>> morning while  I was
>>>> getting ready for church.  I'm sorry and maybe
>>>> >>>>>>>> we can understand one
>>>> another better now.
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>  has been
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> "Loyalty to petrified
>>>> opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a
>>>> >>>>>>>> human soul," American
>>>> Humorist Mark Twain
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> "An attack on one of
>>>> us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth
>>>> >>>>>>>> Jernigan, Immediate Past
>>>> President, National Federation of the Blind
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> "A brother offended
>>>> is harder to be won than a strong city: and
>>>> >>>>>>>> their contentions are like
>>>> the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> "Faith is the ability
>>>> to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> "No one can do it for
>>>> us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push,
>>>> >>>>>>>> 1976.
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> "With proper
>>>> training, development, and opportunity, blindness can
>>>> >>>>>>>> be reduced to the level of
>>>> a physical nuisance or characteristic,"
>>>> >>>>>>>> the Late Dr. Kenneth
>>>> Jernigan, Past President, National Federation
>>>> >>>>>>>> of the Blind.
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> Julie Vogt or
>>>> jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> >>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change
>>>> your list options or get your account info
>>>> >>>>>>>> for Faith-talk:
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> >>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your
>>>> list options or get your account info for
>>>> >>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> >>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list
>>>> options or get your account info for
>>>> >>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> No virus found in this incoming
>>>> message.
>>>> >>>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>> >>>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database:
>>>> 270.9.0/1776 - Release Date: 11/8/2008
>>>> >>>>> 6:49 PM
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> >>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list
>>>> options or get your account info for
>>>> >>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> >>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> >>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options
>>>> or get your account info for
>>>> >>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> >>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>> >>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>> >>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database:
>>>> 270.9.0/1778 - Release Date: 11/9/2008
>>>> >>> 2:14 PM
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> >>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> >>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or
>>>> get your account info for
>>>> >>> Faith-talk:
>>>> >>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>> >> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> >> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> >>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get
>>>> your account info for Faith-talk:
>>>> >>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>> > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>> > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1778 -
>>>> Release Date: 11/9/2008 2:14 PM
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> > Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> >
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>> account info for Faith-talk:
>>>> >
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>>>> >
>>>> Corey Cook
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>> account info for Faith-talk:
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
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>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> Faith-talk:
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> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
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From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Mon Nov 10 08:43:03 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 02:43:03 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
References: <579159.68070.qm@web51906.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <0362833240F44CAC8181FC7F8FA4BC40@Alan>

Exactly!  The devil manages to make the most sinful behavior appear to be very appealing and desirable.  That's because he knows that that very sin separates us from God.  The more we willfully sin, the further apart we get from God.  God's word tells us to flee from such sin.

+-+-+-

   There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. 
 1 Samuel 2:2
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Frank Lordi" <timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations


> The bible clearly states that homosexual sex is an abomination.
> 
> This is one of the hardest things about believing.  We must submit to God's law.  We are 'a stif fnecked people' so this is difficult but we must do it.  We need not understand, we need not agree, but we must obey.  Our Lord says those are his friends who keep his commands.  So if we want to be his friend, we must accept among other things, that homosexual sex is a sin.
> 
> Perhaps it will help to look at it this way.  I like women a great deal.  I cannot stop liking women.  Often times i 'want' badly to have relations with said women, but God's law says no, so i must follow this or accept the wages of sin.  
> 
> The same goes for homosexuals, for cleptomaniacs, for the greedy, the hopeless, etc.  We all have our crosses to carry, our temptations to resist.
> 
> --- On Sun, 11/9/08, BMW <lynnwhite51 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> 
>> From: BMW <lynnwhite51 at sbcglobal.net>
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>> To: "Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 10:49 PM
>> Beth, sex outside of the relationship between a husband and
>> wife is a sin.
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> To: <timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com>; "Faith-talk,for
>> the discussion of faith and 
>> religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 9:12 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>> 
>> 
>> > Okay, if homosexuality is a sin, guess what?  What
>> about the
>> > homosexuals who have homosexual relations with each
>> other and cannot
>> > be attracted to opposite sex members?  I again may
>> mention that I have
>> > friends who are gay/lesbian.  And I am pleased with
>> Obama in the white
>> > house.  God knows what's best, and I believe in a
>> God who loves all,
>> > and God knows that homosexuality is a sin, but it is a
>> sin between
>> > those who can physically have someone of the opposite
>> sex along with
>> > being attracted with someone of the opposite sex. 
>> Take my
>> > ex-boyfriend for instance.  He likes women, but if he
>> went to sleep
>> > with a young college friend of mine who I know is
>> attracted to girls,
>> > THAT is a sin.  But if my friend who is lesbian went
>> to sleep with the
>> > equally lesbian girlfriend, it is not a sin.  We must
>> love everybody
>> > unconditionally, and we must not say that they are
>> committing a sin
>> > unless they really are and have the brain chemicals
>> made up so that
>> > they are attracted to someone of the opposite sex.  I
>> am attracted to
>> > menh, so if I went to sleep with my college roommate,
>> for instance,
>> > that would be a in in itself.  I am blind, and if I
>> married a blind
>> > man, that would be fine.  But the way this country and
>> the bible seems
>> > to be interpreted, homosexuality would be stomped out
>> and next will be
>> > blindness.  Before we know it, our listservs will be
>> in jeopardy, an
>> > then, we wouldn't be able to marry, write, read,
>> go to college, and if
>> > the Terrorists get our country, and that is if Barack
>> Obama's not
>> > watching over us, we will be wearing veils if
>> we're female.  I for one
>> > do not want any ore arguments about homosexuality to
>> ever pop up again
>> > on this listserv.  I want to play it straight: it may
>> be a sin, but
>> > unfortunately, nobody understands the homosexual
>> cannot be changed if
>> > they are truly homosexual.  I understand my friends,
>> and they are good
>> > people.  They are going to college and they are going
>> to be band and
>> > chorus teachers.  Do you people thin that these girls
>> I'm friends with
>> > shouldn't be band and chorus teachers to young
>> children because they
>> > are homosexuals?  According to the weird article I
>> read, yes.  But I'd
>> > hire them any time.
>> > Anyway, that's my soap box for today.
>> > Beth
>> >
>> > On 11/9/08, Frank Lordi
>> <timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >> you are speakin gof the concept of 'blood
>> guilt'?
>> >>
>> >> This so often brought grief to Isreal, no?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --- On Sun, 11/9/08, Corey Cook
>> <ccook01 at knology.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> From: Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net>
>> >>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>> >>> To: "Faith-talk, for the discussion of
>> faith and religion"
>> >>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> >>> Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 8:44 PM
>> >>> Homosexuality is sin.
>> >>> Read Romans 1
>> >>> read first Corinthians 6
>> >>> Yes we need to love them just as we love all
>> sinners, but
>> >>> it is time to call it what it is, and that is
>> sin!
>> >>> It is a sin that will be the end of this
>> country if we
>> >>> allow it to be accepted and embraced.
>> >>> Not a popular thought, but a true one.
>> >>>
>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan
>> Wheeler"
>> >>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
>> >>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of
>> faith and
>> >>> religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> >>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 6:29 PM
>> >>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> > Never mind.  I keep telling you it is
>> called a sin in
>> >>> the bible...if you don't want to believe
>> that God calls
>> >>> it a sin, I can't say anything to sway
>> you.
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > +-+-+-
>> >>> >
>> >>> >   There is none holy as the LORD: for
>> there is none
>> >>> beside thee: neither is there any rock like
>> our God.
>> >>> > 1 Samuel 2:2
>> >>> > ~~~
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Alan D Wheeler
>> >>> > awheeler at neb.rr.com
>> >>> > IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>> >>> > Skype: redwheel1
>> >>> > Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM
>> to 1 PM
>> >>> eastern time at www.theqonline.net
>> >>> >
>> >>> > ----- Original Message ----- From:
>> "Beth"
>> >>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> >>> > To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion
>> of faith and
>> >>> religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> >>> > Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 2:41 PM
>> >>> > Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False
>> Accusations
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >> We're talking about a country
>> where not
>> >>> everybody believes in God.  We
>> >>> >> Christians are shoving God down the
>> throats of
>> >>> those who don't know
>> >>> >> him.  We need to pray for the
>> homosexuals and
>> >>> those who are
>> >>> >> experiencing a so-called sin ad we
>> need to be
>> >>> nicer to these people
>> >>> >> for God's own sake.
>> >>> >> Beth
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler
>> >>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>> >>> >>> At the same time, homosexuality
>> is called a
>> >>> sin and abomination by God. So
>> >>> >>> you think we should allow people
>> to continue
>> >>> to sin against God?
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>> +-+-+-
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>>    We know that all things work
>> together for
>> >>> good for those who love God, to
>> >>> >>> those
>> >>> >>> who are called according to his
>> purpose.
>> >>> >>>  Romans 8:28
>> >>> >>> ~~~
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>> Alan D Wheeler
>> >>> >>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>> >>> >>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>> >>> >>> Skype: redwheel1
>> >>> >>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays
>> from 10 AM to 1
>> >>> PM eastern time at
>> >>> >>> www.theqonline.net
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message -----
>> >>> >>> From: "Beth"
>> >>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> >>> >>> To: "Faith-talk,for the
>> discussion of
>> >>> faith and religion"
>> >>> >>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> >>> >>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008
>> 10:44 AM
>> >>> >>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False
>> Accusations
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>>> I would have toagree with
>> Julie.  Marriage
>> >>> is about love, not
>> >>> >>>> procreative reasons only. 
>> I've known
>> >>> friends who've gotten married as
>> >>> >>>> nonprocreative peoples. 
>> Also, has anybody
>> >>> thought that marriage
>> >>> >>>> should at least be for those
>> that can
>> >>> participate in it as well?
>> >>> >>>> Also, if we have bans on
>> same-sex
>> >>> marriage, think of it this way: we
>> >>> >>>> are forcing religion on the
>> people, which
>> >>> God really doesn't want us
>> >>> >>>> to do.  To be Christ-like is
>> not to shove
>> >>> God down the throats of
>> >>> >>>> those who don't know him,
>> but to
>> >>> spread God's love to them, to let
>> >>> >>>> them be free people.
>> >>> >>>> Beth
>> >>> >>>>
>> >>> >>>> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler
>> >>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>> >>> >>>>> Beth,
>> >>> >>>>> I gently disagree with
>> you.  Marriage
>> >>> was designed by God to be between a
>> >>> >>>>> man and a woman. 
>> Don't take issue
>> >>> because I said it.  Study the Bible
>> >>> >>>>> and
>> >>> >>>>> if you still don't
>> like it, then
>> >>> you have to take it up with God.  It was
>> >>> >>>>> His idea to begin with,
>> not man's.
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>> >>>>> +-+-+-
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>    The LORD is my
>> strength and song,
>> >>> and he is become my salvation: he is
>> >>> >>>>> my
>> >>> >>>>> God, and I will prepare
>> him an
>> >>> >>>>>  habitation; my
>> father's God, and
>> >>> I will exalt him.
>> >>> >>>>>  Exodus 15:2
>> >>> >>>>> ~~~
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>> >>>>> Alan D Wheeler
>> >>> >>>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>> >>> >>>>> IM me at:
>> outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>> >>> >>>>> Skype: redwheel1
>> >>> >>>>> Check me out on the Q,
>> Fridays from 10
>> >>> AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>> >>> >>>>> www.theqonline.net
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>> >>>>> ----- Original Message
>> -----
>> >>> >>>>> From: "Beth"
>> >>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> >>> >>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for
>> the
>> >>> discussion of faith and religion"
>> >>> >>>>>
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> >>> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, November
>> 09, 2008 7:29
>> >>> AM
>> >>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk]
>> False
>> >>> Accusations
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>> I don't care if
>> Obama's
>> >>> half-black.  God's people will come to
>> >>> >>>>>> understand a few
>> things:
>> >>> >>>>>> 1. Marriage, for
>> example, is not
>> >>> between "one man and one woman".  It
>> >>> >>>>>> is between two able
>> parties, same
>> >>> o different sex, that are actually
>> >>> >>>>>> willing to stay
>> together.  Our
>> >>> high divorce rate of heterosexual
>> >>> >>>>>> couples mostly is bad
>> for our
>> >>> children herein America.
>> >>> >>>>>> 2. Abortion should
>> never happen.
>> >>> If it's something that has to do
>> >>> >>>>>> with the mother's
>> life and
>> >>> health, then that's the only exception.
>> >>> >>>>>> But rape and birth
>> control reasons
>> >>> are not good ones.
>> >>> >>>>>> 3. Blind people can
>> and wwill have
>> >>> equal rights to vote, gain security
>> >>> >>>>>> benefits, and so on. 
>> Yes,
>> >>> Obama's the most liberal, but we need him.
>> >>> >>>>>> Maybe he's a lot
>> more
>> >>> Christian than Bush was.  But God's people
>> must
>> >>> >>>>>> not be against him. 
>> I'm a
>> >>> Catholic, and I'm also a liberal as well.
>> >>> >>>>>> Obama has also beat
>> Kennedy by so
>> >>> many years.  ANything having to do
>> >>> >>>>>> with race is out as
>> far as I'm
>> >>> concerned.  Next, what will happen when
>> >>> >>>>>> a woman is in the
>> White House?
>> >>> What about a blind woman? lol
>> >>> >>>>>> Beth
>> >>> >>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>> On 11/8/08, Linda
>> Mentink
>> >>> <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
>> >>> >>>>>>> Hi Julie,
>> >>> >>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>> I'm sorry,
>> too.  I'm
>> >>> not against our president elect because
>> he's
>> >>> >>>>>>> black.  Fact is,
>> he's half
>> >>> black.  That's neither here nor
>> >>> >>>>>>> there.  It's
>> mainly
>> >>> because he's the most liberal of all in
>> Congress,
>> >>> >>>>>>> and I believe
>> that a lot of
>> >>> our rights will be taken away once he is
>> >>> >>>>>>> sworn in. 
>> We'll see what
>> >>> happens, but I'm praying for him, and all
>> >>> >>>>>>> the rest in
>> authority over us.
>> >>>  I sent those things to you because I
>> >>> >>>>>>> knew you
>> wouldn't find out
>> >>> from the mainstream media.  But the
>> >>> >>>>>>> election has made
>> history, and
>> >>> God's people need to be more vigilent
>> >>> >>>>>>> than
>> >>> >>>>>>> ever.
>> >>> >>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>> Blessings,
>> >>> >>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>> Linda
>> >>> >>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>> At 03:33 PM
>> 11/8/2008, you
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>> >>>>>>>> It happened
>> by accident.
>> >>> When you didn't stop attacking in my
>> >>> >>>>>>>> in-box--those
>> of you who
>> >>> did it--people of other races by way of our
>> >>> >>>>>>>> new
>> President-elect, I
>> >>> wrote what I wrote.  Now you know how false
>> >>> >>>>>>>> accusations
>> hurt
>> >>> everybody.  Because of one man the
>> African-American
>> >>> >>>>>>>> Church, and
>> people who
>> >>> attend them, have been under tremendous
>> >>> >>>>>>>> attack ever
>> since last
>> >>> March with no let-up.  Ever since I began
>> >>> >>>>>>>> attending and
>> became saved
>> >>> in African-American churches in 1972,
>> >>> >>>>>>>> I've
>> heard dirty,
>> >>> dirty comments like:  "they just do in
>> their
>> >>> >>>>>>>> church what
>> they did in
>> >>> the slave days."  In the slave days,
>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>> African-Americans
>> >>> weren't permitted to know anything of the
>> Bible
>> >>> >>>>>>>> but
>> "Servants obey
>> >>> your masters in the Lord for this is right.
>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>> If people say
>> what people
>> >>> have said about one another's churches
>> >>> >>>>>>>> ever since
>> last March,
>> >>> referring to us as blind people, we'd be
>> up
>> >>> >>>>>>>> in arms.  Let
>> us all be
>> >>> more careful.
>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>> It hit me
>> like a
>> >>> thunderbolt while I was playing piano at a
>> senior
>> >>> >>>>>>>> citizens
>> building today
>> >>> why you all were upset.  And as upset as you
>> >>> >>>>>>>> were last
>> Thursday night,
>> >>> Linda, I was that upset one month ago when
>> >>> >>>>>>>> I read what
>> you
>> >>> particularly sent me privately at 5:00 on a
>> Sunday
>> >>> >>>>>>>> morning while
>>  I was
>> >>> getting ready for church.  I'm sorry and
>> maybe
>> >>> >>>>>>>> we can
>> understand one
>> >>> another better now.
>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>>  has been
>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>> "Loyalty
>> to petrified
>> >>> opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a
>> >>> >>>>>>>> human
>> soul," American
>> >>> Humorist Mark Twain
>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>> "An
>> attack on one of
>> >>> us is an attack on all of us," Dr.
>> Kenneth
>> >>> >>>>>>>> Jernigan,
>> Immediate Past
>> >>> President, National Federation of the Blind
>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>> "A
>> brother offended
>> >>> is harder to be won than a strong city: and
>> >>> >>>>>>>> their
>> contentions are like
>> >>> the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19.
>> KJV
>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>> "Faith
>> is the ability
>> >>> to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>> "No one
>> can do it for
>> >>> us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation
>> Push,
>> >>> >>>>>>>> 1976.
>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>> "With
>> proper
>> >>> training, development, and opportunity,
>> blindness can
>> >>> >>>>>>>> be reduced to
>> the level of
>> >>> a physical nuisance or characteristic,"
>> >>> >>>>>>>> the Late Dr.
>> Kenneth
>> >>> Jernigan, Past President, National Federation
>> >>> >>>>>>>> of the Blind.
>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>> Julie Vogt or
>> >>> jcvogt at pressenter.com
>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> >>>>>>>> Faith-talk
>> mailing list
>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> >>> >>>>>>>> To
>> unsubscribe, change
>> >>> your list options or get your account info
>> >>> >>>>>>>> for
>> Faith-talk:
>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net
>> >>> >>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> >>>>>>> Faith-talk
>> mailing list
>> >>> >>>>>>>
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
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>> change your
>> >>> list options or get your account info for
>> >>> >>>>>>> Faith-talk:
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>> >>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>> >>> >>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>
>> >>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> >>>>>> Faith-talk mailing
>> list
>> >>> >>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >>> >>>>>>
>> >>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> >>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe,
>> change your list
>> >>> options or get your account info for
>> >>> >>>>>> Faith-talk:
>> >>> >>>>>>
>> >>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>> >>>>> No virus found in this
>> incoming
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>> >>> >>>>> Checked by AVG -
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>> >>> >>>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus
>> Database:
>> >>> 270.9.0/1776 - Release Date: 11/8/2008
>> >>> >>>>> 6:49 PM
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> >>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> >>> >>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
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>> your list
>> >>> options or get your account info for
>> >>> >>>>> Faith-talk:
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>> >>>>
>> >>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> >>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> >>> >>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> >>> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your
>> list options
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>> >>> >>>> Faith-talk:
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>> >>>
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>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>>
>> >>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>> No virus found in this incoming
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>> >>> >>> Checked by AVG -
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>> >>> >>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus
>> Database:
>> >>> 270.9.0/1778 - Release Date: 11/9/2008
>> >>> >>> 2:14 PM
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>>
>> >>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> >>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> >>> >>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >>> >>>
>> >>>
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>> >>> >>> Faith-talk:
>> >>> >>>
>> >>>
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>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> >> Faith-talk mailing list
>> >>> >> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >>> >>
>> >>>
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>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > No virus found in this incoming message.
>> >>> > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>> >>> > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database:
>> 270.9.0/1778 -
>> >>> Release Date: 11/9/2008 2:14 PM
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> > Faith-talk mailing list
>> >>> > Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >>> >
>> >>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options
>> or get your
>> >>> account info for Faith-talk:
>> >>> >
>> >>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>> >>> >
>> >>> Corey Cook
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> >>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or
>> get your
>> >>> account info for Faith-talk:
>> >>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/timber_wolf899%40yahoo.com
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Faith-talk mailing list
>> >> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get
>> your account info for
>> >> Faith-talk:
>> >>
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>> >>
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Faith-talk mailing list
>> > Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>> account info for 
>> > Faith-talk:
>> >
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/lynnwhite51%40sbcglobal.net
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
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>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
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> 
> 
>      
> 
> _______________________________________________
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From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Mon Nov 10 08:48:20 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 02:48:20 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] For Beth: homosexuals unchangeable WAS Re: False
	Accusations
References: <17B22BE1EC2F45149C8C36923C19FEB3@TheCooksPC><356348.90200.qm@web51909.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<4383d01d0811091912k5b4dd09bud3bef5c09b3e90fb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A77498A5EC0E4D45AA11A97E6431B4A9@Alan>

Beth,
Your friends can be changed.  God can change them.  God didn't design them to be homosexuals.  If you believe that, you are believing a lie.

Let me look up resources where homosexuals have given up their lifestyles for the sake of God and Jesus Christ, are you open to that?


+-+-+-

   There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. 
 1 Samuel 2:2
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: <timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com>; "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 9:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations


> Okay, if homosexuality is a sin, guess what?  What about the
> homosexuals who have homosexual relations with each other and cannot
> be attracted to opposite sex members?  I again may mention that I have
> friends who are gay/lesbian.  And I am pleased with Obama in the white
> house.  God knows what's best, and I believe in a God who loves all,
> and God knows that homosexuality is a sin, but it is a sin between
> those who can physically have someone of the opposite sex along with
> being attracted with someone of the opposite sex.  Take my
> ex-boyfriend for instance.  He likes women, but if he went to sleep
> with a young college friend of mine who I know is attracted to girls,
> THAT is a sin.  But if my friend who is lesbian went to sleep with the
> equally lesbian girlfriend, it is not a sin.  We must love everybody
> unconditionally, and we must not say that they are committing a sin
> unless they really are and have the brain chemicals made up so that
> they are attracted to someone of the opposite sex.  I am attracted to
> menh, so if I went to sleep with my college roommate, for instance,
> that would be a in in itself.  I am blind, and if I married a blind
> man, that would be fine.  But the way this country and the bible seems
> to be interpreted, homosexuality would be stomped out and next will be
> blindness.  Before we know it, our listservs will be in jeopardy, an
> then, we wouldn't be able to marry, write, read, go to college, and if
> the Terrorists get our country, and that is if Barack Obama's not
> watching over us, we will be wearing veils if we're female.  I for one
> do not want any ore arguments about homosexuality to ever pop up again
> on this listserv.  I want to play it straight: it may be a sin, but
> unfortunately, nobody understands the homosexual cannot be changed if
> they are truly homosexual.  I understand my friends, and they are good
> people.  They are going to college and they are going to be band and
> chorus teachers.  Do you people thin that these girls I'm friends with
> shouldn't be band and chorus teachers to young children because they
> are homosexuals?  According to the weird article I read, yes.  But I'd
> hire them any time.
> Anyway, that's my soap box for today.
> Beth
> 
> On 11/9/08, Frank Lordi <timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> you are speakin gof the concept of 'blood guilt'?
>>
>> This so often brought grief to Isreal, no?
>>
>>
>>
>> --- On Sun, 11/9/08, Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net> wrote:
>>
>>> From: Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>> To: "Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 8:44 PM
>>> Homosexuality is sin.
>>> Read Romans 1
>>> read first Corinthians 6
>>> Yes we need to love them just as we love all sinners, but
>>> it is time to call it what it is, and that is sin!
>>> It is a sin that will be the end of this country if we
>>> allow it to be accepted and embraced.
>>> Not a popular thought, but a true one.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Wheeler"
>>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and
>>> religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 6:29 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>
>>>
>>> > Never mind.  I keep telling you it is called a sin in
>>> the bible...if you don't want to believe that God calls
>>> it a sin, I can't say anything to sway you.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > +-+-+-
>>> >
>>> >   There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none
>>> beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
>>> > 1 Samuel 2:2
>>> > ~~~
>>> >
>>> > Alan D Wheeler
>>> > awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>> > IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>> > Skype: redwheel1
>>> > Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM
>>> eastern time at www.theqonline.net
>>> >
>>> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beth"
>>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>> > To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and
>>> religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> > Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 2:41 PM
>>> > Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >> We're talking about a country where not
>>> everybody believes in God.  We
>>> >> Christians are shoving God down the throats of
>>> those who don't know
>>> >> him.  We need to pray for the homosexuals and
>>> those who are
>>> >> experiencing a so-called sin ad we need to be
>>> nicer to these people
>>> >> for God's own sake.
>>> >> Beth
>>> >>
>>> >> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler
>>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>> >>> At the same time, homosexuality is called a
>>> sin and abomination by God. So
>>> >>> you think we should allow people to continue
>>> to sin against God?
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> +-+-+-
>>> >>>
>>> >>>    We know that all things work together for
>>> good for those who love God, to
>>> >>> those
>>> >>> who are called according to his purpose.
>>> >>>  Romans 8:28
>>> >>> ~~~
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Alan D Wheeler
>>> >>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>> >>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>> >>> Skype: redwheel1
>>> >>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1
>>> PM eastern time at
>>> >>> www.theqonline.net
>>> >>>
>>> >>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> >>> From: "Beth"
>>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>> >>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of
>>> faith and religion"
>>> >>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> >>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:44 AM
>>> >>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>> I would have toagree with Julie.  Marriage
>>> is about love, not
>>> >>>> procreative reasons only.  I've known
>>> friends who've gotten married as
>>> >>>> nonprocreative peoples.  Also, has anybody
>>> thought that marriage
>>> >>>> should at least be for those that can
>>> participate in it as well?
>>> >>>> Also, if we have bans on same-sex
>>> marriage, think of it this way: we
>>> >>>> are forcing religion on the people, which
>>> God really doesn't want us
>>> >>>> to do.  To be Christ-like is not to shove
>>> God down the throats of
>>> >>>> those who don't know him, but to
>>> spread God's love to them, to let
>>> >>>> them be free people.
>>> >>>> Beth
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler
>>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>> >>>>> Beth,
>>> >>>>> I gently disagree with you.  Marriage
>>> was designed by God to be between a
>>> >>>>> man and a woman.  Don't take issue
>>> because I said it.  Study the Bible
>>> >>>>> and
>>> >>>>> if you still don't like it, then
>>> you have to take it up with God.  It was
>>> >>>>> His idea to begin with, not man's.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> +-+-+-
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>    The LORD is my strength and song,
>>> and he is become my salvation: he is
>>> >>>>> my
>>> >>>>> God, and I will prepare him an
>>> >>>>>  habitation; my father's God, and
>>> I will exalt him.
>>> >>>>>  Exodus 15:2
>>> >>>>> ~~~
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>> >>>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>> >>>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>> >>>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>> >>>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10
>>> AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>> >>>>> www.theqonline.net
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> >>>>> From: "Beth"
>>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>> >>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the
>>> discussion of faith and religion"
>>> >>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 7:29
>>> AM
>>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False
>>> Accusations
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>> I don't care if Obama's
>>> half-black.  God's people will come to
>>> >>>>>> understand a few things:
>>> >>>>>> 1. Marriage, for example, is not
>>> between "one man and one woman".  It
>>> >>>>>> is between two able parties, same
>>> o different sex, that are actually
>>> >>>>>> willing to stay together.  Our
>>> high divorce rate of heterosexual
>>> >>>>>> couples mostly is bad for our
>>> children herein America.
>>> >>>>>> 2. Abortion should never happen.
>>> If it's something that has to do
>>> >>>>>> with the mother's life and
>>> health, then that's the only exception.
>>> >>>>>> But rape and birth control reasons
>>> are not good ones.
>>> >>>>>> 3. Blind people can and wwill have
>>> equal rights to vote, gain security
>>> >>>>>> benefits, and so on.  Yes,
>>> Obama's the most liberal, but we need him.
>>> >>>>>> Maybe he's a lot more
>>> Christian than Bush was.  But God's people must
>>> >>>>>> not be against him.  I'm a
>>> Catholic, and I'm also a liberal as well.
>>> >>>>>> Obama has also beat Kennedy by so
>>> many years.  ANything having to do
>>> >>>>>> with race is out as far as I'm
>>> concerned.  Next, what will happen when
>>> >>>>>> a woman is in the White House?
>>> What about a blind woman? lol
>>> >>>>>> Beth
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> On 11/8/08, Linda Mentink
>>> <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
>>> >>>>>>> Hi Julie,
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> I'm sorry, too.  I'm
>>> not against our president elect because he's
>>> >>>>>>> black.  Fact is, he's half
>>> black.  That's neither here nor
>>> >>>>>>> there.  It's mainly
>>> because he's the most liberal of all in Congress,
>>> >>>>>>> and I believe that a lot of
>>> our rights will be taken away once he is
>>> >>>>>>> sworn in.  We'll see what
>>> happens, but I'm praying for him, and all
>>> >>>>>>> the rest in authority over us.
>>>  I sent those things to you because I
>>> >>>>>>> knew you wouldn't find out
>>> from the mainstream media.  But the
>>> >>>>>>> election has made history, and
>>> God's people need to be more vigilent
>>> >>>>>>> than
>>> >>>>>>> ever.
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> Blessings,
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> Linda
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> At 03:33 PM 11/8/2008, you
>>> wrote:
>>> >>>>>>>> It happened by accident.
>>> When you didn't stop attacking in my
>>> >>>>>>>> in-box--those of you who
>>> did it--people of other races by way of our
>>> >>>>>>>> new President-elect, I
>>> wrote what I wrote.  Now you know how false
>>> >>>>>>>> accusations hurt
>>> everybody.  Because of one man the African-American
>>> >>>>>>>> Church, and people who
>>> attend them, have been under tremendous
>>> >>>>>>>> attack ever since last
>>> March with no let-up.  Ever since I began
>>> >>>>>>>> attending and became saved
>>> in African-American churches in 1972,
>>> >>>>>>>> I've heard dirty,
>>> dirty comments like:  "they just do in their
>>> >>>>>>>> church what they did in
>>> the slave days."  In the slave days,
>>> >>>>>>>> African-Americans
>>> weren't permitted to know anything of the Bible
>>> >>>>>>>> but "Servants obey
>>> your masters in the Lord for this is right.
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>> If people say what people
>>> have said about one another's churches
>>> >>>>>>>> ever since last March,
>>> referring to us as blind people, we'd be up
>>> >>>>>>>> in arms.  Let us all be
>>> more careful.
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>> It hit me like a
>>> thunderbolt while I was playing piano at a senior
>>> >>>>>>>> citizens building today
>>> why you all were upset.  And as upset as you
>>> >>>>>>>> were last Thursday night,
>>> Linda, I was that upset one month ago when
>>> >>>>>>>> I read what you
>>> particularly sent me privately at 5:00 on a Sunday
>>> >>>>>>>> morning while  I was
>>> getting ready for church.  I'm sorry and maybe
>>> >>>>>>>> we can understand one
>>> another better now.
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>  has been
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>> "Loyalty to petrified
>>> opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a
>>> >>>>>>>> human soul," American
>>> Humorist Mark Twain
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>> "An attack on one of
>>> us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth
>>> >>>>>>>> Jernigan, Immediate Past
>>> President, National Federation of the Blind
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>> "A brother offended
>>> is harder to be won than a strong city: and
>>> >>>>>>>> their contentions are like
>>> the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>> "Faith is the ability
>>> to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>> "No one can do it for
>>> us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push,
>>> >>>>>>>> 1976.
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>> "With proper
>>> training, development, and opportunity, blindness can
>>> >>>>>>>> be reduced to the level of
>>> a physical nuisance or characteristic,"
>>> >>>>>>>> the Late Dr. Kenneth
>>> Jernigan, Past President, National Federation
>>> >>>>>>>> of the Blind.
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>> Julie Vogt or
>>> jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> >>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change
>>> your list options or get your account info
>>> >>>>>>>> for Faith-talk:
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> >>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your
>>> list options or get your account info for
>>> >>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> >>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> >>>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list
>>> options or get your account info for
>>> >>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>> >>>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> No virus found in this incoming
>>> message.
>>> >>>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>> >>>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database:
>>> 270.9.0/1776 - Release Date: 11/8/2008
>>> >>>>> 6:49 PM
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> >>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> >>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list
>>> options or get your account info for
>>> >>>>> Faith-talk:
>>> >>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> >>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> >>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options
>>> or get your account info for
>>> >>>> Faith-talk:
>>> >>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>> >>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>> >>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database:
>>> 270.9.0/1778 - Release Date: 11/9/2008
>>> >>> 2:14 PM
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> >>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> >>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or
>>> get your account info for
>>> >>> Faith-talk:
>>> >>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> >> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> >>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get
>>> your account info for Faith-talk:
>>> >>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > No virus found in this incoming message.
>>> > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>> > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1778 -
>>> Release Date: 11/9/2008 2:14 PM
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Faith-talk mailing list
>>> > Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> >
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>> account info for Faith-talk:
>>> >
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>>> >
>>> Corey Cook
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>> account info for Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/timber_wolf899%40yahoo.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
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From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Mon Nov 10 08:50:39 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 02:50:39 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Emailing: Last Days Ministries I'm Gay, O.K.
References: <875437.29995.qm@web51908.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <A1415C51B9204BEDB21260536D780F69@Alan>

This is the passage you are referring to:
John 9

1 ?And when he went on his way, he saw a man blind from birth.
2 And his disciples put a question to him, saying, Master, was it because of this man's sin, or the sin of his father and mother, that he has been blind from birth?
3 Jesus said in answer, It was not because of his sin, or because of his father's or mother's; it was so that the works of God might be seen openly in him.
4 While it is day we have to do the works of him who sent me: the night comes when no work may be done.
5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.
6 Having said these words, he put earth, mixed with water from his mouth, on the man's eyes,
7 And said to him, Go and make yourself clean in the bath of Siloam (the sense of the name is, Sent). So he went away and, after washing, came back able to see.
8 ?Then the neighbours and others who had seen him before in the street, with his hand out for money, said, Is not this the man who got money from people?

+-+-+-

   There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. 
 1 Samuel 2:2
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Frank Lordi" <timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 11:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Emailing: Last Days Ministries I'm Gay, O.K.


> Doesnt the Lord specifically say the blind man he heals was not blind due to his sin or that of his ancestors? <This is a reading just before easter, perhaps someone can help with the reference?>
> 
> Is any of this making nay sense?
> thanks
> Frank
> 
> 
> --- On Sun, 11/9/08, Barbara Hammel <poetlori8 at msn.com> wrote:
> 
>> From: Barbara Hammel <poetlori8 at msn.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Emailing: Last Days Ministries I'm Gay, O.K.
>> To: "Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 11:57 PM
>> And where in the Bible does it say anything about blind
>> people being bad? People just happened to be blind, God
>> didn't say being blind was a sin.
>> Barbara
>> 
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 9:33 PM
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and
>> religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Emailing: Last Days Ministries
>> I'm Gay, O.K.
>> 
>> > Come on!  I've said it enough.  Marriage isn't
>> going to just be
>> > "between ONE MAN and ONE WOMAN" enough these
>> days.  Before you know
>> > it, Christians will interpret the Bible as being of
>> the able-bodied to
>> > be perfect and capable of multiplyin and so on.  This
>> is horrible!
>> > Bet
>> > 
>> > On 11/9/08, trising at sbcglobal.net
>> <trising at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> >> That is an absolutely excellent article! All of us
>> sin and fall short of the
>> >> glory of God, whether we are gay or a gossip.
>> Jesus loves all of us and came
>> >> here to die in our place for our sins so we can go
>> to heaven and be with
>> >> him. We will not go there if we do not trust in
>> Him alone as the provider of
>> >> our salvation. People who commit any sin, and that
>> means all of us, deserve
>> >> to be loved, but not to have our sin excused or
>> minimized. It is God's
>> >> design for marriage to be between one man and one
>> woman. we as Christians
>> >> can stand up for what is right, while loving those
>> caught in homosexual sin.
>> >> Giving them special rights is wrong, but so is
>> refusing to talk to them, or
>> >> regarding them as someone God cannot save.
>> >> 
>> >> 
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Faith-talk mailing list
>> >> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get
>> your account info for
>> >> Faith-talk:
>> >>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>> >> 
>> > 
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Faith-talk mailing list
>> > Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>> account info for Faith-talk:
>> >
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
>> > 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>> account info for Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/timber_wolf899%40yahoo.com
> 
> 
>      
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
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From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Mon Nov 10 08:54:13 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 02:54:13 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Emailing: Last Days Ministries I'm Gay, O.K.
References: <35A03D458698454A84A02B53EB5728FC@Buster><0AE2D4A5152D4796862C6EFB2E88D3AE@nickf1758c2c9d><4383d01d0811091933w2fff5563r4b7dc4d58c5eb47c@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY113-DS3FC099D4F44C593F5BF96EB1A0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <7BCCBE1CC81A43C8AD96CD8E2EC031F2@Alan>

Exactly!  I already posted the verses in John 9.  So, let me post another one from the Gospel of Mark:

Mark 10

46 ?And they came to Jericho: and when he was going out of Jericho, with his disciples and a great number of people, the son of Timaeus, Bartimaeus, a blind man, was seated by the wayside, with his hand out for money.
47 And when it came to his ears that it was Jesus of Nazareth, he gave a cry, and said, Jesus, Son of David, have mercy on me.
48 And some of them, turning in protest, gave him an order to be quiet: but he went on crying out all the more, Son of David, have mercy on me.
49 And Jesus came to a stop and said, Let him come. And crying out to the blind man, they said to him, Be comforted: come, he has sent for you.
50 And he, putting off his coat, got up quickly, and came to Jesus.
51 And Jesus said to him, What would you have me do to you? And the blind man said, Master, make me able to see.
52 And Jesus said to him, Go on your way; your faith has made you well. And straight away he was able to see, and went after him in the way.

Jesus said the man had faith, but said nothing about the man's sin.  Very telling.


+-+-+-

   There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. 
 1 Samuel 2:2
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Barbara Hammel" <poetlori8 at msn.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Emailing: Last Days Ministries I'm Gay, O.K.


> And where in the Bible does it say anything about blind people being bad? 
> People just happened to be blind, God didn't say being blind was a sin.
> Barbara
> 
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 9:33 PM
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Emailing: Last Days Ministries I'm Gay, O.K.
> 
>> Come on!  I've said it enough.  Marriage isn't going to just be
>> "between ONE MAN and ONE WOMAN" enough these days.  Before you know
>> it, Christians will interpret the Bible as being of the able-bodied to
>> be perfect and capable of multiplyin and so on.  This is horrible!
>> Bet
>>
>> On 11/9/08, trising at sbcglobal.net <trising at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> That is an absolutely excellent article! All of us sin and fall short of 
>>> the
>>> glory of God, whether we are gay or a gossip. Jesus loves all of us and 
>>> came
>>> here to die in our place for our sins so we can go to heaven and be with
>>> him. We will not go there if we do not trust in Him alone as the provider 
>>> of
>>> our salvation. People who commit any sin, and that means all of us, 
>>> deserve
>>> to be loved, but not to have our sin excused or minimized. It is God's
>>> design for marriage to be between one man and one woman. we as Christians
>>> can stand up for what is right, while loving those caught in homosexual 
>>> sin.
>>> Giving them special rights is wrong, but so is refusing to talk to them, 
>>> or
>>> regarding them as someone God cannot save.
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com


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From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Mon Nov 10 08:55:08 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 02:55:08 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] More about homosexuality.
References: <45DA65A746C4427D84681755CC35CB99@Alan><4383d01d0811091253x2afd9cffu8fc0dcd74995a54d@mail.gmail.com><31C23822BE7246E2A07426880ABA96D4@lynnwhitePC>
	<63A3EFD1C0EF4E9787C2EFA87034453E@TheCooksPC>
Message-ID: <6776FAA89EFF4D258D27EBD02570A75A@Alan>

Yes, and that by grace we are saved.  God's grace is truly amazing, isn't it?


+-+-+-

   There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. 
 1 Samuel 2:2
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Corey Cook" <ccook01 at knology.net>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] More about homosexuality.


> The great part is Paul says that that was what we were before we were 
> forgiven.
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "BMW" <lynnwhite51 at sbcglobal.net>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:21 PM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] More about homosexuality.
> 
> 
>> well, Beth, your view goes against the old and new Testament.  Nobody is 
>> being a bigot or anything like that.
>>
>> What do you do with the verses that speak against adultery, drunkardness, 
>> slanderers, fornicators?  Paul says that all of have fit into one of these 
>> categories before we were forgiven.
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 2:53 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] More about homosexuality.
>>
>>
>>> Allan, this article is severely biased and is hurtful to homosexual
>>> friends of mine.  Thank God they didn't read this.  To be honest, I
>>> love my friends, all my friends heterosexual and homosexual.  Every
>>> kid has the right to two loving parents, but not necessarily a mom and
>>> a dad.  Gay couples and lesbian couples are still adoptable couples.
>>> I've seen a lesbian couple that adopted two Cree First Nations
>>> children.  I saw a gay couple adopt special needs twins who had
>>> addiction problems.  This country needs to be more progressive and
>>> stop attacking homosexuals because they are homosexuals.  Before you
>>> know it, Allan, this country will put blind and visually impaired
>>> people as well as cognitively disabled people in their places: along
>>> with the homosexuals, below sighted and heterosexual people.  Before
>>> you know it, Allan, African Americans will be kicked out of office and
>>> there will be an assassination attempt on Barack Obama, who I hope
>>> will reign for eight long and healthy years.  Please watch what you're
>>> saying!  We're all Christians on this list!  Can't we accept others'
>>> beliefs and opinions here?  I'm not trying to be psychic and prophetic
>>> here, but please understand that I am very concerned that this nation
>>> is going to fall down like Rome did and we won't have a very healthy
>>> end if you know what I mean.  And not everybody believes in God.  And
>>> God loves everybody, and even though it is written that homosexuality
>>> is a sin, attacking homosexuals who are not atracted and refuse to be
>>> attracted to the opposite sex is wrong.  We cannot an will not attack
>>> others because they are a different brand of homo sapiens sapiens.
>>> Beth
>>>
>>> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>>> I went to www.biblegateway.com to see what I could find about 
>>>> homosexuality
>>>> and the bible.  This was among the resources.  So, again I say, and this 
>>>> is
>>>> my last comment on the subject, if you disagree that marriage is only 
>>>> for
>>>> men and women, then your argument is with God.  It's in His book.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.faithfacts.org/christ-and-the-culture/gay-rights#marriage
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Sanctity of Marriage
>>>> In recent years, the homosexual movement has centered on giving
>>>> marriage-like benefits to gay couples. Many in the culture have 
>>>> mistakenly
>>>> concluded that marriage is merely an institution for the convenience of
>>>> adults. In actuality, marriage is the bedrock institution for culture to
>>>> sustain itself through having and nurturing children. There are
>>>> complementary aspects to a man and woman that are important to the
>>>> instutution of marriage which go beyond the obvious physical attributes.
>>>> There are things that a man needs that can only be provided by a woman, 
>>>> and
>>>> vice versa.
>>>>
>>>> These complementary aspects are important to the relationship of the 
>>>> couple
>>>> itself, as well as to the children. One does not have to appeal to 
>>>> religion
>>>> to instinctively understand this. Yet statistics verify the structure of 
>>>> the
>>>> traditional family as the approach to raising children that gives the 
>>>> best
>>>> measurable results. The overwhelming body of social science research 
>>>> agrees
>>>> that children do best when raised in homes with married, opposite-sex
>>>> parents. Every child has the right to both a mom and a dad.
>>>>
>>>> Yet we cannot divorce the institution of marriage from its theological
>>>> roots. We acknowledge that marriage is an institution given by God 
>>>> (Genesis
>>>> 2:24). The Creator of the Universe established the relationship between 
>>>> a
>>>> man and a woman, thus it is a divine institution, not a human one. To 
>>>> confer
>>>> marriage-like rights to gays is not the prerogative of people (Matthew
>>>> 19:6). (This includes civil unions or domestic partnerships, as they are
>>>> merely marriage by other names.) Defining marriage is the prerogative of
>>>> God. Whatever may tend to undermine the institution of marriage would 
>>>> also
>>>> undermine the authority of God, as well as hurt society.
>>>>
>>>> Liberals may argue, "Why should we arbitrarily select only heterosexual
>>>> couples for marriage? What can it hurt if two homosexuals want to 
>>>> marry?"
>>>> The answer is surprisingly simple. The institution of marriage between 
>>>> and
>>>> man a woman is not, in fact, arbitrary. It's purpose is clear and of 
>>>> utmost
>>>> importance to society.
>>>>
>>>> David Orland in an article entitled "The Deceit of Gay Marriage" puts it
>>>> very well. He says:
>>>>
>>>>   To justify giving privileges or exemptions or subsidies to some 
>>>> particular
>>>> group in society, the benefit of doing so for society at large must 
>>>> first be
>>>> shown. With heterosexual marriage, the case is clear enough. 
>>>> Heterosexual
>>>> marriage is a matter of genuine social interest because the family is
>>>> essential to society's reproduction. The crux of my argument, in other
>>>> words, was that married couples receive the benefits they do, not 
>>>> because
>>>> the state is interested in promoting romantic love, or because the Bible
>>>> says so or because of the influence of special interest groups but 
>>>> rather
>>>> because the next generation is something that is and should be of 
>>>> interest
>>>> to all of us. And, by definition, this is not a case that can be made 
>>>> for
>>>> homosexual unions. To that degree, the attempt to turn the question of
>>>> domestic partnership into a debate about fairness falls flat.
>>>>
>>>>   The more persistent supporters of domestic partnership will of course
>>>> respond to this argument by pointing to the case in which homosexual
>>>> partners adopt children or, in the case of lesbians, undergo artificial
>>>> insemination. The intention here is to show that the nuclear family is 
>>>> found
>>>> even among homosexual couples and that, to that extent, homosexual 
>>>> unions do
>>>> indeed meet the same criterion of social interest as heterosexual ones 
>>>> and
>>>> thus should be granted legal status. It is a weak argument and one that
>>>> ultimately back-fires on those who employ it. This is for two reasons:
>>>>
>>>>   First, adoption by homosexual couples is still exceedingly rare and 
>>>> the
>>>> law-though many are surprised to learn this-is aimed at the general 
>>>> case. To
>>>> confer legal benefits on the entire class of would-be homosexual spouses
>>>> just because some very small minority of this class approximates the 
>>>> pattern
>>>> of the nuclear family would be a bit like admitting all applicants to a
>>>> select university on the grounds that a few of them had been shown to 
>>>> meet
>>>> the entrance requirements.
>>>>
>>>>   Second, the right of this small minority to the benefits of marriage 
>>>> is
>>>> dubious in the extreme. Homosexual "families" of whatever type are 
>>>> always
>>>> and necessarily parasitic on heterosexual ones.
>>>>
>>>> Every child has the right to a mom and a dad. See 5 Reasons Why Same-Sex
>>>> Marriage Harms Children.
>>>>
>>>> But homosexuals not only want fair treatment, they are pushing for 
>>>> "Super
>>>> Rights." According the Paul Cameron of the Family Research Institute:
>>>>
>>>>   "Every member of society has a duty to contribute to the commonwealth. 
>>>> Yet
>>>> the empirical evidence indicates that those who engage in homosexuality 
>>>> 1)
>>>> contribute less and cost more in goods and services, 2) 
>>>> disproportionately
>>>> disrupt social functioning, and 3) have few children while being more 
>>>> apt to
>>>> harm them. Thus, homosexual practioners not only fail to 'pay for their
>>>> keep,' but by their negative influence on children, cloud society's 
>>>> future.
>>>>
>>>>   Those who engage in homosexuality seek what they say are 'gay rights." 
>>>> In
>>>> reality, they are demanding Super Rights. Super Rights are those 
>>>> privileges
>>>> that allow one to ovverride the inalienable rights of other citizens, 
>>>> such
>>>> as freedom of speech and association. These Super Rights-which are 
>>>> conferred
>>>> by 'non-discrimination,' 'hate crime,' and 'hate speech' laws-allow
>>>> homosexuals, if they so choose, to endanger or punish those who would
>>>> exercise their associational rights to avoid them or protect their 
>>>> children
>>>> from them.
>>>>
>>>>   As an example, empirical studies to date indicate that a male teacher 
>>>> who
>>>> practices homosexuality is the most likely kind of teacher to sexually
>>>> molest students. A principal knowing this may not want to hire a teacher 
>>>> who
>>>> declares his homosexual interests. But if that teacher wants the job, 
>>>> his
>>>> Super Rights trump the associational rights of the principal as well as 
>>>> the
>>>> right of students not to experience extra risk (especially since safety 
>>>> is
>>>> part of their right to life). Parents renting out one side of their 
>>>> duplex
>>>> may not want to place their children at risk by renting to a gay couple. 
>>>> But
>>>> if-even on a whim - the homosexuals want the duplex, their Super Rights
>>>> trump the property and associational rights of the parents as well as 
>>>> their
>>>> children's right not to be exposed to potential molestation.
>>>>
>>>>   The Super Rights of homosexual practitioners also squelch the right of
>>>> others to freedom of speech. If a broadcaster opines that homosexual sex 
>>>> is
>>>> dangerous, but a homosexual finds such speech 'offensive,' his Super 
>>>> Rights
>>>> trump the broadcaster's freedom of speech and the broadcaster may be 
>>>> fined
>>>> or imprisoned."
>>>>
>>>> The concept of hate crimes seems particularly reprehensible. If one of 
>>>> your
>>>> (heterosexual) loved ones is the object of a despicable crime, the
>>>> perpetrator would receive a lesser punishment than someone who committed 
>>>> the
>>>> same act against someone who practices homosexual sex!
>>>>
>>>> +-+-+-
>>>>
>>>>    He has made clear to you, O man, what is good; and what is desired 
>>>> from
>>>> you by the Lord; only doing what is
>>>>  right, and loving mercy, and walking without pride before your God. 
>>>> Micah
>>>> 6:8
>>>> ~~~
>>>>
>>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>>> www.theqonline.net
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/lynnwhite51%40sbcglobal.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>>
> Corey Cook 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
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From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Mon Nov 10 08:56:16 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 02:56:16 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
References: <E9B0A7C28DD444F7ADC7CB300F67830F@your4dacd0ea75><20081109035831.9E797AC853@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net><4383d01d0811090529o40db51do77b90bee606dc92b@mail.gmail.com><34EE51212347460BBC336CEB5D414D5A@Alan><4383d01d0811090844o4496c680xf7c1eb301ac76b6f@mail.gmail.com><F8F4968EFA6F4D5DA9552449802050AF@Alan><FD9FC46FAD3C4602AAA7F6EBFF36863F@your4dacd0ea75>
	<DA09238460FC4F8F81D813E28E3B3BB8@TheCooksPC>
Message-ID: <94B129998F1B4A68AE7C5CE83B98D13F@Alan>

Yes, no matter how wrong it is, we're willing to accept it in the name of "tolerance."


+-+-+-

   There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. 
 1 Samuel 2:2
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Corey Cook" <ccook01 at knology.net>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations


> That song shows how far we have come in what we will accept as a culture.
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Julie C. Vogt" <jcvogt at pressenter.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 3:28 PM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
> 
> 
>> Alan, this is the bad thing:  We know what the bible says about that and 
>> if they know it, all they really feel is the church's rejection of them. 
>> We have to love people where they are and that means really trying to help 
>> them fight their battles with homosexuality or whatever the thing is.  We 
>> do that when it comes to other things.  Plus I really think it's been made 
>> such a mess that the Scripture that says, "God shall separate the wheat 
>> from the tariffs," is there for a reason.  Only God can fix it now.
>>
>> Can we legislate the love of God in those who don't have it or make people 
>> go the way we know God knows they should when all they feel is rejection? 
>> These are things I think about now.
>>
>> I think gays and lesbians should have a civil union, not marriage, because 
>> pretty soon we're going to have a problem with "common law" couples and 
>> all that. We can't make ourselves God in governing other people's lives.
>>
>> When I first got saved in the'70's, if people wore slacks in the 
>> African-American churches, or even mixed congregations, people were quick 
>> to quote that thou shall not wear clothes pertaining to a man.  Well, 
>> there's a difference between man's pants and women's pants.  Now time has 
>> passed and people are finding now that God deals with people a whole lot 
>> better than people do.  I wear slacks or pant suits myself.  I don't like 
>> to be moving around on a piano bench and having to pull at my dress, but 
>> God still loves me and has used me, particularly in music.
>>
>> I don't know if you tune to top 40 stations at all, but last summer there 
>> was a song out by Katy Perry:
>>
>> "I kissed a girl and I like it.
>> Hope my boy-friend don't mind it."
>>
>> And then she talks of it not meaning she's in love tonight.  Because of 
>> rejection, they're going to push as hard as we do.  God has to intervene 
>> in this.
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Alan Wheeler" <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 12:31 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>
>>
>>> At the same time, homosexuality is called a sin and abomination by God. 
>>> So you think we should allow people to continue to sin against God?
>>>
>>>
>>> +-+-+-
>>>
>>>   We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, 
>>> to those
>>> who are called according to his purpose.
>>> Romans 8:28
>>> ~~~
>>>
>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at 
>>> www.theqonline.net
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:44 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>
>>>
>>>>I would have toagree with Julie.  Marriage is about love, not
>>>> procreative reasons only.  I've known friends who've gotten married as
>>>> nonprocreative peoples.  Also, has anybody thought that marriage
>>>> should at least be for those that can participate in it as well?
>>>> Also, if we have bans on same-sex marriage, think of it this way: we
>>>> are forcing religion on the people, which God really doesn't want us
>>>> to do.  To be Christ-like is not to shove God down the throats of
>>>> those who don't know him, but to spread God's love to them, to let
>>>> them be free people.
>>>> Beth
>>>>
>>>> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>> Beth,
>>>>> I gently disagree with you.  Marriage was designed by God to be between 
>>>>> a
>>>>> man and a woman.  Don't take issue because I said it.  Study the Bible 
>>>>> and
>>>>> if you still don't like it, then you have to take it up with God.  It 
>>>>> was
>>>>> His idea to begin with, not man's.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> +-+-+-
>>>>>
>>>>>    The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he 
>>>>> is my
>>>>> God, and I will prepare him an
>>>>>  habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.
>>>>>  Exodus 15:2
>>>>> ~~~
>>>>>
>>>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>>>> www.theqonline.net
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 7:29 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>I don't care if Obama's half-black.  God's people will come to
>>>>>> understand a few things:
>>>>>> 1. Marriage, for example, is not between "one man and one woman".  It
>>>>>> is between two able parties, same o different sex, that are actually
>>>>>> willing to stay together.  Our high divorce rate of heterosexual
>>>>>> couples mostly is bad for our children herein America.
>>>>>> 2. Abortion should never happen.  If it's something that has to do
>>>>>> with the mother's life and health, then that's the only exception.
>>>>>> But rape and birth control reasons are not good ones.
>>>>>> 3. Blind people can and wwill have equal rights to vote, gain security
>>>>>> benefits, and so on.  Yes, Obama's the most liberal, but we need him.
>>>>>> Maybe he's a lot more Christian than Bush was.  But God's people must
>>>>>> not be against him.  I'm a Catholic, and I'm also a liberal as well.
>>>>>> Obama has also beat Kennedy by so many years.  ANything having to do
>>>>>> with race is out as far as I'm concerned.  Next, what will happen when
>>>>>> a woman is in the White House?  What about a blind woman? lol
>>>>>> Beth
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/8/08, Linda Mentink <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi Julie,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm sorry, too.  I'm not against our president elect because he's
>>>>>>> black.  Fact is, he's half black.  That's neither here nor
>>>>>>> there.  It's mainly because he's the most liberal of all in Congress,
>>>>>>> and I believe that a lot of our rights will be taken away once he is
>>>>>>> sworn in.  We'll see what happens, but I'm praying for him, and all
>>>>>>> the rest in authority over us.  I sent those things to you because I
>>>>>>> knew you wouldn't find out from the mainstream media.  But the
>>>>>>> election has made history, and God's people need to be more vigilent 
>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>> ever.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Blessings,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Linda
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> At 03:33 PM 11/8/2008, you wrote:
>>>>>>>>It happened by accident.  When you didn't stop attacking in my
>>>>>>>>in-box--those of you who did it--people of other races by way of our
>>>>>>>>new President-elect, I wrote what I wrote.  Now you know how false
>>>>>>>>accusations hurt everybody.  Because of one man the African-American
>>>>>>>>Church, and people who attend them, have been under tremendous
>>>>>>>>attack ever since last March with no let-up.  Ever since I began
>>>>>>>>attending and became saved in African-American churches in 1972,
>>>>>>>>I've heard dirty, dirty comments like:  "they just do in their
>>>>>>>>church what they did in the slave days."  In the slave days,
>>>>>>>>African-Americans weren't permitted to know anything of the Bible
>>>>>>>>but "Servants obey your masters in the Lord for this is right.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>If people say what people have said about one another's churches
>>>>>>>>ever since last March, referring to us as blind people, we'd be up
>>>>>>>>in arms.  Let us all be more careful.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>It hit me like a thunderbolt while I was playing piano at a senior
>>>>>>>>citizens building today why you all were upset.  And as upset as you
>>>>>>>>were last Thursday night, Linda, I was that upset one month ago when
>>>>>>>>I read what you particularly sent me privately at 5:00 on a Sunday
>>>>>>>>morning while  I was getting ready for church.  I'm sorry and maybe
>>>>>>>>we can understand one another better now.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  has been
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a
>>>>>>>>human soul," American Humorist Mark Twain
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth
>>>>>>>>Jernigan, Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and
>>>>>>>>their contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push,
>>>>>>>> 1976.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can
>>>>>>>>be reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic,"
>>>>>>>>the Late Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation
>>>>>>>>of the Blind.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>for Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
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>>>>> 11/8/2008
>>>>> 6:49 PM
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
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>>> 2:14 PM
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
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>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
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>> 9:53 AM
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>>
> Corey Cook 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com


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From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Mon Nov 10 08:58:35 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 02:58:35 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] false accusations
References: <BAY133-DAV7C5DF97F6C797B9A3FAA2901B0@phx.gbl><3DE6C8F59A0A4C4E902D8D50D4BF8043@TheCooksPC><4383d01d0811091914k3751b511h4f7af9209ce59288@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY113-DS3C6688C327278D0DB7291EB1A0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <25D67B977617483C83E86CECD5547E47@Alan>

Precisely!  We learn from our mistakes in history, or we're supposed to.  This not caring leads to not taking a stand, and one of my favorite sayings is that he who stands for nothing will fall for anything.


+-+-+-

   There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. 
 1 Samuel 2:2
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Barbara Hammel" <poetlori8 at msn.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 11:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] false accusations


> And it's this lack of caring about what's gone on before that has led to the 
> fall of every civilization that has reinvented the abhorances the Bible 
> speaks of.
> Barbara
> 
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 9:14 PM
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] false accusations
> 
>> Okay, okay.  I just said it already.  I don't care about your surveys,
>> your statistics and data.  It just sounds like a bunch of warped
>> knowledge to me.
>> Beth
>>
>> On 11/9/08, Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net> wrote:
>>> Well put Pat.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Pat Gormley" <kk3f at msn.com>
>>> To: <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 6:09 PM
>>> Subject: [Faith-talk] false accusations
>>>
>>>
>>>> People that favor same sex unions tend not to be very good students of
>>>> history.  Ancient Greece and Rome both experienced similar breakdowns in
>>>> society as their civilizations.  You also need to look at actuarial data
>>>> and those tables indicate that those who engage in alternative 
>>>> lifestyles
>>>> tend to live 10 to 15 years less than a similarly in tact married 
>>>> couple.
>>>> I agree with Alan Wheeler in that we hate the sin  but not the sinner.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>>>>
>>> Corey Cook
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com


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From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Mon Nov 10 08:59:36 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 02:59:36 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
References: <579159.68070.qm@web51906.mail.re2.yahoo.com><B8FA7640775C4FDE80497B65B4DB0E43@TheCooksPC>
	<4383d01d0811092203o615e736fh19eb8d239fd9a81e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C8BFEE46325C46648C85CEE3B8F7D611@Alan>

What?  The bible stating that homosexual sex is an abomination is a joke?
+-+-+-

   There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. 
 1 Samuel 2:2
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 12:03 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations


> ROTFL! What a joke!
> Beth
> 
> On 11/10/08, Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net> wrote:
>> Well siad Frank
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Frank Lordi" <timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com>
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 11:02 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>
>>
>>> The bible clearly states that homosexual sex is an abomination.
>>>
>>> This is one of the hardest things about believing.  We must submit to
>>> God's law.  We are 'a stif fnecked people' so this is difficult but we
>>> must do it.  We need not understand, we need not agree, but we must obey.
>>> Our Lord says those are his friends who keep his commands.  So if we want
>>> to be his friend, we must accept among other things, that homosexual sex
>>> is a sin.
>>>
>>> Perhaps it will help to look at it this way.  I like women a great deal.
>>> I cannot stop liking women.  Often times i 'want' badly to have relations
>>> with said women, but God's law says no, so i must follow this or accept
>>> the wages of sin.
>>>
>>> The same goes for homosexuals, for cleptomaniacs, for the greedy, the
>>> hopeless, etc.  We all have our crosses to carry, our temptations to
>>> resist.
>>>
>>> --- On Sun, 11/9/08, BMW <lynnwhite51 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> From: BMW <lynnwhite51 at sbcglobal.net>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>> To: "Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 10:49 PM
>>>> Beth, sex outside of the relationship between a husband and
>>>> wife is a sin.
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>> To: <timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com>; "Faith-talk,for
>>>> the discussion of faith and
>>>> religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 9:12 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > Okay, if homosexuality is a sin, guess what?  What
>>>> about the
>>>> > homosexuals who have homosexual relations with each
>>>> other and cannot
>>>> > be attracted to opposite sex members?  I again may
>>>> mention that I have
>>>> > friends who are gay/lesbian.  And I am pleased with
>>>> Obama in the white
>>>> > house.  God knows what's best, and I believe in a
>>>> God who loves all,
>>>> > and God knows that homosexuality is a sin, but it is a
>>>> sin between
>>>> > those who can physically have someone of the opposite
>>>> sex along with
>>>> > being attracted with someone of the opposite sex.
>>>> Take my
>>>> > ex-boyfriend for instance.  He likes women, but if he
>>>> went to sleep
>>>> > with a young college friend of mine who I know is
>>>> attracted to girls,
>>>> > THAT is a sin.  But if my friend who is lesbian went
>>>> to sleep with the
>>>> > equally lesbian girlfriend, it is not a sin.  We must
>>>> love everybody
>>>> > unconditionally, and we must not say that they are
>>>> committing a sin
>>>> > unless they really are and have the brain chemicals
>>>> made up so that
>>>> > they are attracted to someone of the opposite sex.  I
>>>> am attracted to
>>>> > menh, so if I went to sleep with my college roommate,
>>>> for instance,
>>>> > that would be a in in itself.  I am blind, and if I
>>>> married a blind
>>>> > man, that would be fine.  But the way this country and
>>>> the bible seems
>>>> > to be interpreted, homosexuality would be stomped out
>>>> and next will be
>>>> > blindness.  Before we know it, our listservs will be
>>>> in jeopardy, an
>>>> > then, we wouldn't be able to marry, write, read,
>>>> go to college, and if
>>>> > the Terrorists get our country, and that is if Barack
>>>> Obama's not
>>>> > watching over us, we will be wearing veils if
>>>> we're female.  I for one
>>>> > do not want any ore arguments about homosexuality to
>>>> ever pop up again
>>>> > on this listserv.  I want to play it straight: it may
>>>> be a sin, but
>>>> > unfortunately, nobody understands the homosexual
>>>> cannot be changed if
>>>> > they are truly homosexual.  I understand my friends,
>>>> and they are good
>>>> > people.  They are going to college and they are going
>>>> to be band and
>>>> > chorus teachers.  Do you people thin that these girls
>>>> I'm friends with
>>>> > shouldn't be band and chorus teachers to young
>>>> children because they
>>>> > are homosexuals?  According to the weird article I
>>>> read, yes.  But I'd
>>>> > hire them any time.
>>>> > Anyway, that's my soap box for today.
>>>> > Beth
>>>> >
>>>> > On 11/9/08, Frank Lordi
>>>> <timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> >> you are speakin gof the concept of 'blood
>>>> guilt'?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> This so often brought grief to Isreal, no?
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> --- On Sun, 11/9/08, Corey Cook
>>>> <ccook01 at knology.net> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> From: Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net>
>>>> >>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>> >>> To: "Faith-talk, for the discussion of
>>>> faith and religion"
>>>> >>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> >>> Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 8:44 PM
>>>> >>> Homosexuality is sin.
>>>> >>> Read Romans 1
>>>> >>> read first Corinthians 6
>>>> >>> Yes we need to love them just as we love all
>>>> sinners, but
>>>> >>> it is time to call it what it is, and that is
>>>> sin!
>>>> >>> It is a sin that will be the end of this
>>>> country if we
>>>> >>> allow it to be accepted and embraced.
>>>> >>> Not a popular thought, but a true one.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan
>>>> Wheeler"
>>>> >>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
>>>> >>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of
>>>> faith and
>>>> >>> religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> >>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 6:29 PM
>>>> >>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> > Never mind.  I keep telling you it is
>>>> called a sin in
>>>> >>> the bible...if you don't want to believe
>>>> that God calls
>>>> >>> it a sin, I can't say anything to sway
>>>> you.
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> > +-+-+-
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >   There is none holy as the LORD: for
>>>> there is none
>>>> >>> beside thee: neither is there any rock like
>>>> our God.
>>>> >>> > 1 Samuel 2:2
>>>> >>> > ~~~
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> > Alan D Wheeler
>>>> >>> > awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>> >>> > IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>> >>> > Skype: redwheel1
>>>> >>> > Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM
>>>> to 1 PM
>>>> >>> eastern time at www.theqonline.net
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> > ----- Original Message ----- From:
>>>> "Beth"
>>>> >>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>> >>> > To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion
>>>> of faith and
>>>> >>> religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> >>> > Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 2:41 PM
>>>> >>> > Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False
>>>> Accusations
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >> We're talking about a country
>>>> where not
>>>> >>> everybody believes in God.  We
>>>> >>> >> Christians are shoving God down the
>>>> throats of
>>>> >>> those who don't know
>>>> >>> >> him.  We need to pray for the
>>>> homosexuals and
>>>> >>> those who are
>>>> >>> >> experiencing a so-called sin ad we
>>>> need to be
>>>> >>> nicer to these people
>>>> >>> >> for God's own sake.
>>>> >>> >> Beth
>>>> >>> >>
>>>> >>> >> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler
>>>> >>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>>> >>> >>> At the same time, homosexuality
>>>> is called a
>>>> >>> sin and abomination by God. So
>>>> >>> >>> you think we should allow people
>>>> to continue
>>>> >>> to sin against God?
>>>> >>> >>>
>>>> >>> >>>
>>>> >>> >>> +-+-+-
>>>> >>> >>>
>>>> >>> >>>    We know that all things work
>>>> together for
>>>> >>> good for those who love God, to
>>>> >>> >>> those
>>>> >>> >>> who are called according to his
>>>> purpose.
>>>> >>> >>>  Romans 8:28
>>>> >>> >>> ~~~
>>>> >>> >>>
>>>> >>> >>> Alan D Wheeler
>>>> >>> >>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>> >>> >>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>> >>> >>> Skype: redwheel1
>>>> >>> >>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays
>>>> from 10 AM to 1
>>>> >>> PM eastern time at
>>>> >>> >>> www.theqonline.net
>>>> >>> >>>
>>>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> >>> >>> From: "Beth"
>>>> >>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>> >>> >>> To: "Faith-talk,for the
>>>> discussion of
>>>> >>> faith and religion"
>>>> >>> >>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> >>> >>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008
>>>> 10:44 AM
>>>> >>> >>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False
>>>> Accusations
>>>> >>> >>>
>>>> >>> >>>
>>>> >>> >>>> I would have toagree with
>>>> Julie.  Marriage
>>>> >>> is about love, not
>>>> >>> >>>> procreative reasons only.
>>>> I've known
>>>> >>> friends who've gotten married as
>>>> >>> >>>> nonprocreative peoples.
>>>> Also, has anybody
>>>> >>> thought that marriage
>>>> >>> >>>> should at least be for those
>>>> that can
>>>> >>> participate in it as well?
>>>> >>> >>>> Also, if we have bans on
>>>> same-sex
>>>> >>> marriage, think of it this way: we
>>>> >>> >>>> are forcing religion on the
>>>> people, which
>>>> >>> God really doesn't want us
>>>> >>> >>>> to do.  To be Christ-like is
>>>> not to shove
>>>> >>> God down the throats of
>>>> >>> >>>> those who don't know him,
>>>> but to
>>>> >>> spread God's love to them, to let
>>>> >>> >>>> them be free people.
>>>> >>> >>>> Beth
>>>> >>> >>>>
>>>> >>> >>>> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler
>>>> >>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>>> >>> >>>>> Beth,
>>>> >>> >>>>> I gently disagree with
>>>> you.  Marriage
>>>> >>> was designed by God to be between a
>>>> >>> >>>>> man and a woman.
>>>> Don't take issue
>>>> >>> because I said it.  Study the Bible
>>>> >>> >>>>> and
>>>> >>> >>>>> if you still don't
>>>> like it, then
>>>> >>> you have to take it up with God.  It was
>>>> >>> >>>>> His idea to begin with,
>>>> not man's.
>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>> +-+-+-
>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>    The LORD is my
>>>> strength and song,
>>>> >>> and he is become my salvation: he is
>>>> >>> >>>>> my
>>>> >>> >>>>> God, and I will prepare
>>>> him an
>>>> >>> >>>>>  habitation; my
>>>> father's God, and
>>>> >>> I will exalt him.
>>>> >>> >>>>>  Exodus 15:2
>>>> >>> >>>>> ~~~
>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>>> >>> >>>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>> >>> >>>>> IM me at:
>>>> outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>> >>> >>>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>>> >>> >>>>> Check me out on the Q,
>>>> Fridays from 10
>>>> >>> AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>>> >>> >>>>> www.theqonline.net
>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>> ----- Original Message
>>>> -----
>>>> >>> >>>>> From: "Beth"
>>>> >>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>> >>> >>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for
>>>> the
>>>> >>> discussion of faith and religion"
>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> >>> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, November
>>>> 09, 2008 7:29
>>>> >>> AM
>>>> >>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk]
>>>> False
>>>> >>> Accusations
>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>> I don't care if
>>>> Obama's
>>>> >>> half-black.  God's people will come to
>>>> >>> >>>>>> understand a few
>>>> things:
>>>> >>> >>>>>> 1. Marriage, for
>>>> example, is not
>>>> >>> between "one man and one woman".  It
>>>> >>> >>>>>> is between two able
>>>> parties, same
>>>> >>> o different sex, that are actually
>>>> >>> >>>>>> willing to stay
>>>> together.  Our
>>>> >>> high divorce rate of heterosexual
>>>> >>> >>>>>> couples mostly is bad
>>>> for our
>>>> >>> children herein America.
>>>> >>> >>>>>> 2. Abortion should
>>>> never happen.
>>>> >>> If it's something that has to do
>>>> >>> >>>>>> with the mother's
>>>> life and
>>>> >>> health, then that's the only exception.
>>>> >>> >>>>>> But rape and birth
>>>> control reasons
>>>> >>> are not good ones.
>>>> >>> >>>>>> 3. Blind people can
>>>> and wwill have
>>>> >>> equal rights to vote, gain security
>>>> >>> >>>>>> benefits, and so on.
>>>> Yes,
>>>> >>> Obama's the most liberal, but we need him.
>>>> >>> >>>>>> Maybe he's a lot
>>>> more
>>>> >>> Christian than Bush was.  But God's people
>>>> must
>>>> >>> >>>>>> not be against him.
>>>> I'm a
>>>> >>> Catholic, and I'm also a liberal as well.
>>>> >>> >>>>>> Obama has also beat
>>>> Kennedy by so
>>>> >>> many years.  ANything having to do
>>>> >>> >>>>>> with race is out as
>>>> far as I'm
>>>> >>> concerned.  Next, what will happen when
>>>> >>> >>>>>> a woman is in the
>>>> White House?
>>>> >>> What about a blind woman? lol
>>>> >>> >>>>>> Beth
>>>> >>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>> On 11/8/08, Linda
>>>> Mentink
>>>> >>> <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
>>>> >>> >>>>>>> Hi Julie,
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>> I'm sorry,
>>>> too.  I'm
>>>> >>> not against our president elect because
>>>> he's
>>>> >>> >>>>>>> black.  Fact is,
>>>> he's half
>>>> >>> black.  That's neither here nor
>>>> >>> >>>>>>> there.  It's
>>>> mainly
>>>> >>> because he's the most liberal of all in
>>>> Congress,
>>>> >>> >>>>>>> and I believe
>>>> that a lot of
>>>> >>> our rights will be taken away once he is
>>>> >>> >>>>>>> sworn in.
>>>> We'll see what
>>>> >>> happens, but I'm praying for him, and all
>>>> >>> >>>>>>> the rest in
>>>> authority over us.
>>>> >>>  I sent those things to you because I
>>>> >>> >>>>>>> knew you
>>>> wouldn't find out
>>>> >>> from the mainstream media.  But the
>>>> >>> >>>>>>> election has made
>>>> history, and
>>>> >>> God's people need to be more vigilent
>>>> >>> >>>>>>> than
>>>> >>> >>>>>>> ever.
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>> Blessings,
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>> Linda
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>> At 03:33 PM
>>>> 11/8/2008, you
>>>> >>> wrote:
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> It happened
>>>> by accident.
>>>> >>> When you didn't stop attacking in my
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> in-box--those
>>>> of you who
>>>> >>> did it--people of other races by way of our
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> new
>>>> President-elect, I
>>>> >>> wrote what I wrote.  Now you know how false
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> accusations
>>>> hurt
>>>> >>> everybody.  Because of one man the
>>>> African-American
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> Church, and
>>>> people who
>>>> >>> attend them, have been under tremendous
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> attack ever
>>>> since last
>>>> >>> March with no let-up.  Ever since I began
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> attending and
>>>> became saved
>>>> >>> in African-American churches in 1972,
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> I've
>>>> heard dirty,
>>>> >>> dirty comments like:  "they just do in
>>>> their
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> church what
>>>> they did in
>>>> >>> the slave days."  In the slave days,
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> African-Americans
>>>> >>> weren't permitted to know anything of the
>>>> Bible
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> but
>>>> "Servants obey
>>>> >>> your masters in the Lord for this is right.
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> If people say
>>>> what people
>>>> >>> have said about one another's churches
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> ever since
>>>> last March,
>>>> >>> referring to us as blind people, we'd be
>>>> up
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> in arms.  Let
>>>> us all be
>>>> >>> more careful.
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> It hit me
>>>> like a
>>>> >>> thunderbolt while I was playing piano at a
>>>> senior
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> citizens
>>>> building today
>>>> >>> why you all were upset.  And as upset as you
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> were last
>>>> Thursday night,
>>>> >>> Linda, I was that upset one month ago when
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> I read what
>>>> you
>>>> >>> particularly sent me privately at 5:00 on a
>>>> Sunday
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> morning while
>>>>  I was
>>>> >>> getting ready for church.  I'm sorry and
>>>> maybe
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> we can
>>>> understand one
>>>> >>> another better now.
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>  has been
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> "Loyalty
>>>> to petrified
>>>> >>> opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> human
>>>> soul," American
>>>> >>> Humorist Mark Twain
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> "An
>>>> attack on one of
>>>> >>> us is an attack on all of us," Dr.
>>>> Kenneth
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> Jernigan,
>>>> Immediate Past
>>>> >>> President, National Federation of the Blind
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> "A
>>>> brother offended
>>>> >>> is harder to be won than a strong city: and
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> their
>>>> contentions are like
>>>> >>> the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19.
>>>> KJV
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> "Faith
>>>> is the ability
>>>> >>> to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> "No one
>>>> can do it for
>>>> >>> us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation
>>>> Push,
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> 1976.
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> "With
>>>> proper
>>>> >>> training, development, and opportunity,
>>>> blindness can
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> be reduced to
>>>> the level of
>>>> >>> a physical nuisance or characteristic,"
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> the Late Dr.
>>>> Kenneth
>>>> >>> Jernigan, Past President, National Federation
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> of the Blind.
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> Julie Vogt or
>>>> >>> jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> Faith-talk
>>>> mailing list
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> To
>>>> unsubscribe, change
>>>> >>> your list options or get your account info
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>> >>>>>>> Faith-talk
>>>> mailing list
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> >>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe,
>>>> change your
>>>> >>> list options or get your account info for
>>>> >>> >>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>> >>>>>> Faith-talk mailing
>>>> list
>>>> >>> >>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> >>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> >>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe,
>>>> change your list
>>>> >>> options or get your account info for
>>>> >>> >>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> >>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>> No virus found in this
>>>> incoming
>>>> >>> message.
>>>> >>> >>>>> Checked by AVG -
>>>> http://www.avg.com
>>>> >>> >>>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus
>>>> Database:
>>>> >>> 270.9.0/1776 - Release Date: 11/8/2008
>>>> >>> >>>>> 6:49 PM
>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>> >>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> >>> >>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> >>> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change
>>>> your list
>>>> >>> options or get your account info for
>>>> >>> >>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>> >>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> >>> >>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> >>> >>>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> >>> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your
>>>> list options
>>>> >>> or get your account info for
>>>> >>> >>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> >>> >>>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>> >>> >>>
>>>> >>> >>>
>>>> >>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> >>> >>>
>>>> >>> >>>
>>>> >>> >>>
>>>> >>> >>> No virus found in this incoming
>>>> message.
>>>> >>> >>> Checked by AVG -
>>>> http://www.avg.com
>>>> >>> >>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus
>>>> Database:
>>>> >>> 270.9.0/1778 - Release Date: 11/9/2008
>>>> >>> >>> 2:14 PM
>>>> >>> >>>
>>>> >>> >>>
>>>> >>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>> >>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> >>> >>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> >>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list
>>>> options or
>>>> >>> get your account info for
>>>> >>> >>> Faith-talk:
>>>> >>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>> >>> >>>
>>>> >>> >>
>>>> >>> >>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>> >> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> >>> >> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> >>> >>
>>>> >>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> >>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list
>>>> options or get
>>>> >>> your account info for Faith-talk:
>>>> >>> >>
>>>> >>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> > No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>> >>> > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>> >>> > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database:
>>>> 270.9.0/1778 -
>>>> >>> Release Date: 11/9/2008 2:14 PM
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>> > Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> >>> > Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options
>>>> or get your
>>>> >>> account info for Faith-talk:
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> Corey Cook
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> >>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> >>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or
>>>> get your
>>>> >>> account info for Faith-talk:
>>>> >>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/timber_wolf899%40yahoo.com
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>> >> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> >> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> >>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get
>>>> your account info for
>>>> >> Faith-talk:
>>>> >>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> > Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> >
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>> account info for
>>>> > Faith-talk:
>>>> >
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/lynnwhite51%40sbcglobal.net
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>> account info for Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/timber_wolf899%40yahoo.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>>>
>> Corey Cook
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1778 - Release Date: 11/9/2008 2:14 PM




From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Mon Nov 10 09:00:00 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 03:00:00 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
References: <E9B0A7C28DD444F7ADC7CB300F67830F@your4dacd0ea75><20081109035831.9E797AC853@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net><4383d01d0811090529o40db51do77b90bee606dc92b@mail.gmail.com><34EE51212347460BBC336CEB5D414D5A@Alan><4383d01d0811090844o4496c680xf7c1eb301ac76b6f@mail.gmail.com><F8F4968EFA6F4D5DA9552449802050AF@Alan><4383d01d0811091241x6bcba8fyf245b5a9bae3889c@mail.gmail.com>
	<7B9BB56381CA446DBB668A43E39C078B@TheCooksPC>
Message-ID: <2B7035D136354F9FAA6C37CBD71BFE36@Alan>

Well said and right on the money!


+-+-+-

   There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. 
 1 Samuel 2:2
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Corey Cook" <ccook01 at knology.net>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations


> Agreed, we should be nice to gays.
> We should also be nice to liars.
> We should also be nice to drunks.
> But we should tell them the truth about there sin.
> And love them and support them out of a sinful life style.
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 3:41 PM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
> 
> 
>> We're talking about a country where not everybody believes in God.  We
>> Christians are shoving God down the throats of those who don't know
>> him.  We need to pray for the homosexuals and those who are
>> experiencing a so-called sin ad we need to be nicer to these people
>> for God's own sake.
>> Beth
>>
>> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>> At the same time, homosexuality is called a sin and abomination by God. 
>>> So
>>> you think we should allow people to continue to sin against God?
>>>
>>>
>>> +-+-+-
>>>
>>>    We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, 
>>> to
>>> those
>>> who are called according to his purpose.
>>>  Romans 8:28
>>> ~~~
>>>
>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>> www.theqonline.net
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:44 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>
>>>
>>>>I would have toagree with Julie.  Marriage is about love, not
>>>> procreative reasons only.  I've known friends who've gotten married as
>>>> nonprocreative peoples.  Also, has anybody thought that marriage
>>>> should at least be for those that can participate in it as well?
>>>> Also, if we have bans on same-sex marriage, think of it this way: we
>>>> are forcing religion on the people, which God really doesn't want us
>>>> to do.  To be Christ-like is not to shove God down the throats of
>>>> those who don't know him, but to spread God's love to them, to let
>>>> them be free people.
>>>> Beth
>>>>
>>>> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>> Beth,
>>>>> I gently disagree with you.  Marriage was designed by God to be between 
>>>>> a
>>>>> man and a woman.  Don't take issue because I said it.  Study the Bible
>>>>> and
>>>>> if you still don't like it, then you have to take it up with God.  It 
>>>>> was
>>>>> His idea to begin with, not man's.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> +-+-+-
>>>>>
>>>>>    The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he 
>>>>> is
>>>>> my
>>>>> God, and I will prepare him an
>>>>>  habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.
>>>>>  Exodus 15:2
>>>>> ~~~
>>>>>
>>>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>>>> www.theqonline.net
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 7:29 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>I don't care if Obama's half-black.  God's people will come to
>>>>>> understand a few things:
>>>>>> 1. Marriage, for example, is not between "one man and one woman".  It
>>>>>> is between two able parties, same o different sex, that are actually
>>>>>> willing to stay together.  Our high divorce rate of heterosexual
>>>>>> couples mostly is bad for our children herein America.
>>>>>> 2. Abortion should never happen.  If it's something that has to do
>>>>>> with the mother's life and health, then that's the only exception.
>>>>>> But rape and birth control reasons are not good ones.
>>>>>> 3. Blind people can and wwill have equal rights to vote, gain security
>>>>>> benefits, and so on.  Yes, Obama's the most liberal, but we need him.
>>>>>> Maybe he's a lot more Christian than Bush was.  But God's people must
>>>>>> not be against him.  I'm a Catholic, and I'm also a liberal as well.
>>>>>> Obama has also beat Kennedy by so many years.  ANything having to do
>>>>>> with race is out as far as I'm concerned.  Next, what will happen when
>>>>>> a woman is in the White House?  What about a blind woman? lol
>>>>>> Beth
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/8/08, Linda Mentink <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi Julie,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm sorry, too.  I'm not against our president elect because he's
>>>>>>> black.  Fact is, he's half black.  That's neither here nor
>>>>>>> there.  It's mainly because he's the most liberal of all in Congress,
>>>>>>> and I believe that a lot of our rights will be taken away once he is
>>>>>>> sworn in.  We'll see what happens, but I'm praying for him, and all
>>>>>>> the rest in authority over us.  I sent those things to you because I
>>>>>>> knew you wouldn't find out from the mainstream media.  But the
>>>>>>> election has made history, and God's people need to be more vigilent
>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>> ever.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Blessings,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Linda
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> At 03:33 PM 11/8/2008, you wrote:
>>>>>>>>It happened by accident.  When you didn't stop attacking in my
>>>>>>>>in-box--those of you who did it--people of other races by way of our
>>>>>>>>new President-elect, I wrote what I wrote.  Now you know how false
>>>>>>>>accusations hurt everybody.  Because of one man the African-American
>>>>>>>>Church, and people who attend them, have been under tremendous
>>>>>>>>attack ever since last March with no let-up.  Ever since I began
>>>>>>>>attending and became saved in African-American churches in 1972,
>>>>>>>>I've heard dirty, dirty comments like:  "they just do in their
>>>>>>>>church what they did in the slave days."  In the slave days,
>>>>>>>>African-Americans weren't permitted to know anything of the Bible
>>>>>>>>but "Servants obey your masters in the Lord for this is right.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>If people say what people have said about one another's churches
>>>>>>>>ever since last March, referring to us as blind people, we'd be up
>>>>>>>>in arms.  Let us all be more careful.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>It hit me like a thunderbolt while I was playing piano at a senior
>>>>>>>>citizens building today why you all were upset.  And as upset as you
>>>>>>>>were last Thursday night, Linda, I was that upset one month ago when
>>>>>>>>I read what you particularly sent me privately at 5:00 on a Sunday
>>>>>>>>morning while  I was getting ready for church.  I'm sorry and maybe
>>>>>>>>we can understand one another better now.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  has been
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a
>>>>>>>>human soul," American Humorist Mark Twain
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth
>>>>>>>>Jernigan, Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and
>>>>>>>>their contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push,
>>>>>>>> 1976.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can
>>>>>>>>be reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic,"
>>>>>>>>the Late Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation
>>>>>>>>of the Blind.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>for Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1776 - Release Date: 
>>>>> 11/8/2008
>>>>> 6:49 PM
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1778 - Release Date: 11/9/2008
>>> 2:14 PM
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>>
> Corey Cook 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
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From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Mon Nov 10 09:01:36 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 03:01:36 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Emailing: Last Days Ministries I'm Gay, O.K.
References: <35A03D458698454A84A02B53EB5728FC@Buster><0AE2D4A5152D4796862C6EFB2E88D3AE@nickf1758c2c9d><4383d01d0811091933w2fff5563r4b7dc4d58c5eb47c@mail.gmail.com><005d01c942ec$28333750$5c85fe04@rjige047kjawst>
	<4383d01d0811092230p556cf25bk342c1ae7d2a0e47b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9A311BBAB5BA41DEA003B08E23EAC3D0@Alan>

You're completely missing why Jesus healed those people.  It was their faith that lead Jesus to heal them.  Not their sin.  I've already posted new testament passages showing this, so I won't repeat myself.


+-+-+-

   There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. 
 1 Samuel 2:2
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 12:30 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Emailing: Last Days Ministries I'm Gay, O.K.


> You're all right about this.  But the Bible makes disabilities and
> blindness especially look bad.  Jesus heals a blind man, and back in
> he Biblical days, they didn't have Braille, slates and styli, the
> Braillewriter, or even more, the Internet, computers, JAWS, and this
> listserv.
> Think about it.
> It doesn't mention Jesus healing a homosexual.  Jesus never hung out
> with homosexuals.
> Did he?
> Beth
> 
> On 11/9/08, rjs059 at peoplepc.com <rjs059 at peoplepc.com> wrote:
>> Beth, Marriage, Was a religious practice, long before the government even
>> became involved. And furthermore, It is conceder to be a sacrament in the
>> Catholic church.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:33 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Emailing: Last Days Ministries I'm Gay, O.K.
>>
>>
>>> Come on!  I've said it enough.  Marriage isn't going to just be
>>> "between ONE MAN and ONE WOMAN" enough these days.  Before you know
>>> it, Christians will interpret the Bible as being of the able-bodied to
>>> be perfect and capable of multiplyin and so on.  This is horrible!
>>> Bet
>>>
>>> On 11/9/08, trising at sbcglobal.net <trising at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>> That is an absolutely excellent article! All of us sin and fall short of
>>>> the
>>>> glory of God, whether we are gay or a gossip. Jesus loves all of us and
>>>> came
>>>> here to die in our place for our sins so we can go to heaven and be with
>>>> him. We will not go there if we do not trust in Him alone as the provider
>>>>
>>>> of
>>>> our salvation. People who commit any sin, and that means all of us,
>>>> deserve
>>>> to be loved, but not to have our sin excused or minimized. It is God's
>>>> design for marriage to be between one man and one woman. we as Christians
>>>> can stand up for what is right, while loving those caught in homosexual
>>>> sin.
>>>> Giving them special rights is wrong, but so is refusing to talk to them,
>>>> or
>>>> regarding them as someone God cannot save.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/rjs059%40peoplepc.com
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
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>> 6:49 PM
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>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
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From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Mon Nov 10 09:03:59 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 03:03:59 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] article 1
References: <5F3A84795F784BB39F938F35FB1FD13B@TheCooksPC><540AD6D7A71946E7A883D27649F2C41F@nickf1758c2c9d>
	<4383d01d0811092239n65ce4819jbbe399d2bc8f7b2e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CD639009D761447DA40E589DE43FF10B@Alan>

Then you've obviously turned your heart from God.  I am sorry if that sounds harsh, but if you cannot accept that God declares homosexuality as wrong, you are turning your back on what God has to say.


+-+-+-

   There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. 
 1 Samuel 2:2
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 12:39 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] article 1


> Forget it.  California already did this, and so did Florida on
> Proposition 2.  I'm done here.  This guy is speaking a bunch of tosh
> here.  Marriage is no longer just a breeding thing.  It's love as
> well.  I mean, if I were eighty years old and couldn't have kids,
> could I still marry?  Yes.  I can't breed, but I could still marry.
> Now, marriage then is not about breeding.  I don't see why his
> argument had to go overboard.  Gay marriage to me is a civil rights
> issue as much as it is for me a civil rights issue that we blind
> people get to vote on things like what was passed in California and
> Florida.
> Beth
> 
> On 11/9/08, trising at sbcglobal.net <trising at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> Great article!
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com


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From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Mon Nov 10 09:05:47 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 03:05:47 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] new school prayer
References: <4383d01d0811092216q59181091yc699696d88694561@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A8379C6B9A784BA999CEF838A0A8F5D4@Alan>

It is so ironic you would post this.  It talks about keeping God out of school and you won't even surrender in obedience to what God says about homosexuality?  Very very ironic.


+-+-+-

   There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. 
 1 Samuel 2:2
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 12:16 AM
Subject: [Faith-talk] new school prayer


> Take a look at this, guys.  My close friend sent me this one.
> 
>> >> A kid in Arizona wrote the attached
>> >>
>> >> NEW School prayer :
>> >>
>> >> Now I sit me down in school
>> >> Where praying is against the rule
>> >> For this great nation under God
>> >> Finds mention of Him very odd.
>> >> If Scripture now the class recites,
>> >> It violates the Bill of Rights.
>> >> And anytime my head I bow
>> >> Becomes a Federal matter now.
>> >> Our hair can be purple, orange or green,
>> >> That's no offense; it's a freedom scene.
>> >> The law is specific, the law is precise.
>> >> Prayers spoken aloud are a serious vice.
>> >> For praying in a public hall
>> >> Might offend someone with no faith at all.
>> >> In silence alone we must meditate,
>> >> God's name is prohibited by the state.
>> >> We're allowed to cuss and dress like freaks,
>> >> And pierce our noses, tongues and cheeks..
>> >> They've outlawed guns, but FIRST the Bible.
>> >> To quote the Good Book makes me liable.
>> >> We can elect a pregnant Senior Queen,
>> >> And the 'unwed daddy,' our Senior King.
>> >> It's 'inappropriate' to teach right from wrong,
>> >> We're taught that such 'judgments' do not belong.
>> >> We can get our condoms and birth controls,
>> >> Study witchcraft, vampires and totem poles.
>> >> But the Ten Commandments are not allowed,
>> >> No word of God must reach this crowd.
>> >> It's scary here I must confess,
>> >> When chaos reigns the school's a mess.
>> >> So, Lord, this silent plea I make:
>> >> Should I be shot; My soul please take!
>> >> Amen
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com


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From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Mon Nov 10 09:13:00 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 03:13:00 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Discussion
References: <20081110040703.1E100CCAF8@relay04.roch.ny.frontiernet.net><BF32008C2281471698F5A5EFF0A211D2@TheCooksPC>
	<4383d01d0811092222j2776fae2g1b382eea8f9a2b8d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8EDCF99794C14A6BAC025BE6DD6979C8@Alan>

No one is attacking you, Beth.  If you perceive it that way, you have no one to blame but yourself.  All we're doing is pointing out God's truth.  God loves your homosexual friends, He just doesn't want them living sinful lifestyles.  If your friends want to know God's grace, it's as simple as accepting that they have to surrender their active homosexual lifestyles to Him and give them up completely.

As for your attitude and apparent belief that the blind and disabled are seen as sinful in the Bible and by Christians, if that were so, why would God have me in the radio ministry for the church I attend?  I am totally blind, and became so late in life.  I confess my sins, and God is gracious enough to forgive them.  If your friends would but confess their sins, right down to their homosexual behavior, He would forgive them as well.


+-+-+-

   There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. 
 1 Samuel 2:2
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 12:22 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Discussion


> Okay.  So if homosexuality is a sin, as I have seen pointed out so
> many times, then what about our lifestyle as blind people living?  The
> homosexuals are not trying to shove their lifestyle down or throats.
> They just want to live for God's sake.  Yes, it is a sin, and yes,
> it's sinfu if I do it to my friends, but please.  I just want my
> friends to have their rights.  I'm not as Conservative as you are,
> Linda, and I'm a severely liberal Catholic.  I know, I know, it hurts
> to be a Catholic in a church full of Conservatives yet be liberal in a
> place like Tallahassee.  But let's face it.  My friends want their
> rights.  I care for them, and they don't know what suffering they will
> feel if we continue to hurt them by the so-called "word".  Okay, I
> don't want to diss the Bible, but there's a clear definition of love:
> love is a family.  Kids have a right to love, not a right to an
> abusive "mom and dad."  Sadly, there are more abusive heterosexual
> couples out there than gay ones.  This whole argument has just gone
> overboard, and I feel as though I'm being attacked, and my friends, if
> they came across this, might be attacked as well.
> Beth
> 
> On 11/9/08, Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net> wrote:
>> Linda,
>> Very well written email.
>> The bible is food for our souls.
>> Just as we need physical food, we must feast on the food of the word.
>> As for the issue of homosexuality, as many have pointed out it is sin.
>> God does hate sin, and this goes for all sin.
>> We as Christians need to remember that yes we should be angry about this
>> life style being shoved on us.
>> But at the same time we need to also not let this sin get in the way of the
>> sins we as Christians deal with.
>> We are all sinners, those of us who are Christians have been saved from our
>> sins.
>> But don't be fooled we still deal with sin.
>> And to God that sin is just as ugly as homosexuality.
>> For some people maybe they need to deal with the way they treat others.
>> For others maybe it is the sin of not loving a wife or husband the way God
>> says we should love them.
>> Just my thoughts.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Linda Mentink" <mentink at frontiernet.net>
>> To: <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 11:07 PM
>> Subject: [Faith-talk] Discussion
>>
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I have had my computer off since last night, but have read all the
>>> messages, except the articles.
>>>
>>> Now, I'm speaking as a list member, and not the moderator, just so we're
>>> clear here.  I believe the Bible--all of it.  It lays out very clearly
>>> what sin is, what marriage is, what being a Christian is, and much, much
>>> more.   The Bible says that homosexuality is a sin, and there are no true
>>> Christians who practice this as a lifestyle.   As has been said here, it's
>>>
>>> not our opinion; God doesn't care what we think, but what we believe His
>>> Word, the Bible, to say.  The Bible is the Christian's guidebook.
>>>
>>> Because we are being forced to forget God in many public arenas, we as a
>>> nation are not following His Word.  We are to love the sinner, but not the
>>>
>>> sin.  Enough said from me on that point.
>>>
>>> I encourage all of you to daily read and study your Bibles, and apply what
>>>
>>> you read to your lives each day.  Most in this country are not believers,
>>> Christians, so we should expect them to behave as they do.  We who call
>>> ourselves Christians should live separate, holy lives, that we might win
>>> others to Christ.  That means how we dress, what music we listen to, how
>>> we speak, how we spend our time, what we read, who we hang around with,
>>> etc.  Things are going to get worse for us here, so we'd better be
>>> grounded in the Word of God, and stay close to Him in prayer.
>>>
>>> Blessings,
>>>
>>> Linda
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>>>
>> Corey Cook
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
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From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Mon Nov 10 09:17:49 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 03:17:49 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
References: <579159.68070.qm@web51906.mail.re2.yahoo.com><B8FA7640775C4FDE80497B65B4DB0E43@TheCooksPC><4383d01d0811092203o615e736fh19eb8d239fd9a81e@mail.gmail.com>
	<4383d01d0811092207g26921e5mcef163ce40090faa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <85879B641AD3488C8E52636ED3C62C1E@Alan>

Are you saying that your friends have never sinned?  If so, you're in error.

Read these following passages:

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Romans 3:23

1 John 1

8 ?If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

So, now, after reading this, is it that unfair to compare your friends to robbers and liars?




+-+-+-

   There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. 
 1 Samuel 2:2
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 12:07 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations


> Okay, please don't compare my friends in college to drunks and liars.
> They are who they are and they're different people, so please.  Just
> ... pleeeeeeeeze don't compare them to anythng less than what they
> are: people.
> Beth
> 
> On 11/10/08, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
>> ROTFL! What a joke!
>> Beth
>>
>> On 11/10/08, Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net> wrote:
>>> Well siad Frank
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Frank Lordi" <timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com>
>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 11:02 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>
>>>
>>>> The bible clearly states that homosexual sex is an abomination.
>>>>
>>>> This is one of the hardest things about believing.  We must submit to
>>>> God's law.  We are 'a stif fnecked people' so this is difficult but we
>>>> must do it.  We need not understand, we need not agree, but we must obey.
>>>> Our Lord says those are his friends who keep his commands.  So if we want
>>>> to be his friend, we must accept among other things, that homosexual sex
>>>> is a sin.
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps it will help to look at it this way.  I like women a great deal.
>>>> I cannot stop liking women.  Often times i 'want' badly to have relations
>>>> with said women, but God's law says no, so i must follow this or accept
>>>> the wages of sin.
>>>>
>>>> The same goes for homosexuals, for cleptomaniacs, for the greedy, the
>>>> hopeless, etc.  We all have our crosses to carry, our temptations to
>>>> resist.
>>>>
>>>> --- On Sun, 11/9/08, BMW <lynnwhite51 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> From: BMW <lynnwhite51 at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>>> To: "Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 10:49 PM
>>>>> Beth, sex outside of the relationship between a husband and
>>>>> wife is a sin.
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: <timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com>; "Faith-talk,for
>>>>> the discussion of faith and
>>>>> religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 9:12 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> > Okay, if homosexuality is a sin, guess what?  What
>>>>> about the
>>>>> > homosexuals who have homosexual relations with each
>>>>> other and cannot
>>>>> > be attracted to opposite sex members?  I again may
>>>>> mention that I have
>>>>> > friends who are gay/lesbian.  And I am pleased with
>>>>> Obama in the white
>>>>> > house.  God knows what's best, and I believe in a
>>>>> God who loves all,
>>>>> > and God knows that homosexuality is a sin, but it is a
>>>>> sin between
>>>>> > those who can physically have someone of the opposite
>>>>> sex along with
>>>>> > being attracted with someone of the opposite sex.
>>>>> Take my
>>>>> > ex-boyfriend for instance.  He likes women, but if he
>>>>> went to sleep
>>>>> > with a young college friend of mine who I know is
>>>>> attracted to girls,
>>>>> > THAT is a sin.  But if my friend who is lesbian went
>>>>> to sleep with the
>>>>> > equally lesbian girlfriend, it is not a sin.  We must
>>>>> love everybody
>>>>> > unconditionally, and we must not say that they are
>>>>> committing a sin
>>>>> > unless they really are and have the brain chemicals
>>>>> made up so that
>>>>> > they are attracted to someone of the opposite sex.  I
>>>>> am attracted to
>>>>> > menh, so if I went to sleep with my college roommate,
>>>>> for instance,
>>>>> > that would be a in in itself.  I am blind, and if I
>>>>> married a blind
>>>>> > man, that would be fine.  But the way this country and
>>>>> the bible seems
>>>>> > to be interpreted, homosexuality would be stomped out
>>>>> and next will be
>>>>> > blindness.  Before we know it, our listservs will be
>>>>> in jeopardy, an
>>>>> > then, we wouldn't be able to marry, write, read,
>>>>> go to college, and if
>>>>> > the Terrorists get our country, and that is if Barack
>>>>> Obama's not
>>>>> > watching over us, we will be wearing veils if
>>>>> we're female.  I for one
>>>>> > do not want any ore arguments about homosexuality to
>>>>> ever pop up again
>>>>> > on this listserv.  I want to play it straight: it may
>>>>> be a sin, but
>>>>> > unfortunately, nobody understands the homosexual
>>>>> cannot be changed if
>>>>> > they are truly homosexual.  I understand my friends,
>>>>> and they are good
>>>>> > people.  They are going to college and they are going
>>>>> to be band and
>>>>> > chorus teachers.  Do you people thin that these girls
>>>>> I'm friends with
>>>>> > shouldn't be band and chorus teachers to young
>>>>> children because they
>>>>> > are homosexuals?  According to the weird article I
>>>>> read, yes.  But I'd
>>>>> > hire them any time.
>>>>> > Anyway, that's my soap box for today.
>>>>> > Beth
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On 11/9/08, Frank Lordi
>>>>> <timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>> >> you are speakin gof the concept of 'blood
>>>>> guilt'?
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> This so often brought grief to Isreal, no?
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> --- On Sun, 11/9/08, Corey Cook
>>>>> <ccook01 at knology.net> wrote:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>> From: Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net>
>>>>> >>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>>> >>> To: "Faith-talk, for the discussion of
>>>>> faith and religion"
>>>>> >>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> >>> Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 8:44 PM
>>>>> >>> Homosexuality is sin.
>>>>> >>> Read Romans 1
>>>>> >>> read first Corinthians 6
>>>>> >>> Yes we need to love them just as we love all
>>>>> sinners, but
>>>>> >>> it is time to call it what it is, and that is
>>>>> sin!
>>>>> >>> It is a sin that will be the end of this
>>>>> country if we
>>>>> >>> allow it to be accepted and embraced.
>>>>> >>> Not a popular thought, but a true one.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan
>>>>> Wheeler"
>>>>> >>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
>>>>> >>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of
>>>>> faith and
>>>>> >>> religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> >>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 6:29 PM
>>>>> >>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> > Never mind.  I keep telling you it is
>>>>> called a sin in
>>>>> >>> the bible...if you don't want to believe
>>>>> that God calls
>>>>> >>> it a sin, I can't say anything to sway
>>>>> you.
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> > +-+-+-
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> >   There is none holy as the LORD: for
>>>>> there is none
>>>>> >>> beside thee: neither is there any rock like
>>>>> our God.
>>>>> >>> > 1 Samuel 2:2
>>>>> >>> > ~~~
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> > Alan D Wheeler
>>>>> >>> > awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>>> >>> > IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>>> >>> > Skype: redwheel1
>>>>> >>> > Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM
>>>>> to 1 PM
>>>>> >>> eastern time at www.theqonline.net
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> > ----- Original Message ----- From:
>>>>> "Beth"
>>>>> >>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>>> >>> > To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion
>>>>> of faith and
>>>>> >>> religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> >>> > Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 2:41 PM
>>>>> >>> > Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False
>>>>> Accusations
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> >> We're talking about a country
>>>>> where not
>>>>> >>> everybody believes in God.  We
>>>>> >>> >> Christians are shoving God down the
>>>>> throats of
>>>>> >>> those who don't know
>>>>> >>> >> him.  We need to pray for the
>>>>> homosexuals and
>>>>> >>> those who are
>>>>> >>> >> experiencing a so-called sin ad we
>>>>> need to be
>>>>> >>> nicer to these people
>>>>> >>> >> for God's own sake.
>>>>> >>> >> Beth
>>>>> >>> >>
>>>>> >>> >> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler
>>>>> >>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>> >>> >>> At the same time, homosexuality
>>>>> is called a
>>>>> >>> sin and abomination by God. So
>>>>> >>> >>> you think we should allow people
>>>>> to continue
>>>>> >>> to sin against God?
>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>> >>> >>> +-+-+-
>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>> >>> >>>    We know that all things work
>>>>> together for
>>>>> >>> good for those who love God, to
>>>>> >>> >>> those
>>>>> >>> >>> who are called according to his
>>>>> purpose.
>>>>> >>> >>>  Romans 8:28
>>>>> >>> >>> ~~~
>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>> >>> >>> Alan D Wheeler
>>>>> >>> >>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>>> >>> >>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>>> >>> >>> Skype: redwheel1
>>>>> >>> >>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays
>>>>> from 10 AM to 1
>>>>> >>> PM eastern time at
>>>>> >>> >>> www.theqonline.net
>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> >>> >>> From: "Beth"
>>>>> >>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>>> >>> >>> To: "Faith-talk,for the
>>>>> discussion of
>>>>> >>> faith and religion"
>>>>> >>> >>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> >>> >>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008
>>>>> 10:44 AM
>>>>> >>> >>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False
>>>>> Accusations
>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>> >>> >>>> I would have toagree with
>>>>> Julie.  Marriage
>>>>> >>> is about love, not
>>>>> >>> >>>> procreative reasons only.
>>>>> I've known
>>>>> >>> friends who've gotten married as
>>>>> >>> >>>> nonprocreative peoples.
>>>>> Also, has anybody
>>>>> >>> thought that marriage
>>>>> >>> >>>> should at least be for those
>>>>> that can
>>>>> >>> participate in it as well?
>>>>> >>> >>>> Also, if we have bans on
>>>>> same-sex
>>>>> >>> marriage, think of it this way: we
>>>>> >>> >>>> are forcing religion on the
>>>>> people, which
>>>>> >>> God really doesn't want us
>>>>> >>> >>>> to do.  To be Christ-like is
>>>>> not to shove
>>>>> >>> God down the throats of
>>>>> >>> >>>> those who don't know him,
>>>>> but to
>>>>> >>> spread God's love to them, to let
>>>>> >>> >>>> them be free people.
>>>>> >>> >>>> Beth
>>>>> >>> >>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler
>>>>> >>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>> >>> >>>>> Beth,
>>>>> >>> >>>>> I gently disagree with
>>>>> you.  Marriage
>>>>> >>> was designed by God to be between a
>>>>> >>> >>>>> man and a woman.
>>>>> Don't take issue
>>>>> >>> because I said it.  Study the Bible
>>>>> >>> >>>>> and
>>>>> >>> >>>>> if you still don't
>>>>> like it, then
>>>>> >>> you have to take it up with God.  It was
>>>>> >>> >>>>> His idea to begin with,
>>>>> not man's.
>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>> +-+-+-
>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>    The LORD is my
>>>>> strength and song,
>>>>> >>> and he is become my salvation: he is
>>>>> >>> >>>>> my
>>>>> >>> >>>>> God, and I will prepare
>>>>> him an
>>>>> >>> >>>>>  habitation; my
>>>>> father's God, and
>>>>> >>> I will exalt him.
>>>>> >>> >>>>>  Exodus 15:2
>>>>> >>> >>>>> ~~~
>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>>>> >>> >>>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>>> >>> >>>>> IM me at:
>>>>> outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>>> >>> >>>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>>>> >>> >>>>> Check me out on the Q,
>>>>> Fridays from 10
>>>>> >>> AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>>>> >>> >>>>> www.theqonline.net
>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>> ----- Original Message
>>>>> -----
>>>>> >>> >>>>> From: "Beth"
>>>>> >>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>>> >>> >>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for
>>>>> the
>>>>> >>> discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> >>> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, November
>>>>> 09, 2008 7:29
>>>>> >>> AM
>>>>> >>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk]
>>>>> False
>>>>> >>> Accusations
>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>> I don't care if
>>>>> Obama's
>>>>> >>> half-black.  God's people will come to
>>>>> >>> >>>>>> understand a few
>>>>> things:
>>>>> >>> >>>>>> 1. Marriage, for
>>>>> example, is not
>>>>> >>> between "one man and one woman".  It
>>>>> >>> >>>>>> is between two able
>>>>> parties, same
>>>>> >>> o different sex, that are actually
>>>>> >>> >>>>>> willing to stay
>>>>> together.  Our
>>>>> >>> high divorce rate of heterosexual
>>>>> >>> >>>>>> couples mostly is bad
>>>>> for our
>>>>> >>> children herein America.
>>>>> >>> >>>>>> 2. Abortion should
>>>>> never happen.
>>>>> >>> If it's something that has to do
>>>>> >>> >>>>>> with the mother's
>>>>> life and
>>>>> >>> health, then that's the only exception.
>>>>> >>> >>>>>> But rape and birth
>>>>> control reasons
>>>>> >>> are not good ones.
>>>>> >>> >>>>>> 3. Blind people can
>>>>> and wwill have
>>>>> >>> equal rights to vote, gain security
>>>>> >>> >>>>>> benefits, and so on.
>>>>> Yes,
>>>>> >>> Obama's the most liberal, but we need him.
>>>>> >>> >>>>>> Maybe he's a lot
>>>>> more
>>>>> >>> Christian than Bush was.  But God's people
>>>>> must
>>>>> >>> >>>>>> not be against him.
>>>>> I'm a
>>>>> >>> Catholic, and I'm also a liberal as well.
>>>>> >>> >>>>>> Obama has also beat
>>>>> Kennedy by so
>>>>> >>> many years.  ANything having to do
>>>>> >>> >>>>>> with race is out as
>>>>> far as I'm
>>>>> >>> concerned.  Next, what will happen when
>>>>> >>> >>>>>> a woman is in the
>>>>> White House?
>>>>> >>> What about a blind woman? lol
>>>>> >>> >>>>>> Beth
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>> On 11/8/08, Linda
>>>>> Mentink
>>>>> >>> <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> Hi Julie,
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> I'm sorry,
>>>>> too.  I'm
>>>>> >>> not against our president elect because
>>>>> he's
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> black.  Fact is,
>>>>> he's half
>>>>> >>> black.  That's neither here nor
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> there.  It's
>>>>> mainly
>>>>> >>> because he's the most liberal of all in
>>>>> Congress,
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> and I believe
>>>>> that a lot of
>>>>> >>> our rights will be taken away once he is
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> sworn in.
>>>>> We'll see what
>>>>> >>> happens, but I'm praying for him, and all
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> the rest in
>>>>> authority over us.
>>>>> >>>  I sent those things to you because I
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> knew you
>>>>> wouldn't find out
>>>>> >>> from the mainstream media.  But the
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> election has made
>>>>> history, and
>>>>> >>> God's people need to be more vigilent
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> than
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> ever.
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> Blessings,
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> Linda
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> At 03:33 PM
>>>>> 11/8/2008, you
>>>>> >>> wrote:
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> It happened
>>>>> by accident.
>>>>> >>> When you didn't stop attacking in my
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> in-box--those
>>>>> of you who
>>>>> >>> did it--people of other races by way of our
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> new
>>>>> President-elect, I
>>>>> >>> wrote what I wrote.  Now you know how false
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> accusations
>>>>> hurt
>>>>> >>> everybody.  Because of one man the
>>>>> African-American
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> Church, and
>>>>> people who
>>>>> >>> attend them, have been under tremendous
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> attack ever
>>>>> since last
>>>>> >>> March with no let-up.  Ever since I began
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> attending and
>>>>> became saved
>>>>> >>> in African-American churches in 1972,
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> I've
>>>>> heard dirty,
>>>>> >>> dirty comments like:  "they just do in
>>>>> their
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> church what
>>>>> they did in
>>>>> >>> the slave days."  In the slave days,
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> African-Americans
>>>>> >>> weren't permitted to know anything of the
>>>>> Bible
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> but
>>>>> "Servants obey
>>>>> >>> your masters in the Lord for this is right.
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> If people say
>>>>> what people
>>>>> >>> have said about one another's churches
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> ever since
>>>>> last March,
>>>>> >>> referring to us as blind people, we'd be
>>>>> up
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> in arms.  Let
>>>>> us all be
>>>>> >>> more careful.
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> It hit me
>>>>> like a
>>>>> >>> thunderbolt while I was playing piano at a
>>>>> senior
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> citizens
>>>>> building today
>>>>> >>> why you all were upset.  And as upset as you
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> were last
>>>>> Thursday night,
>>>>> >>> Linda, I was that upset one month ago when
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> I read what
>>>>> you
>>>>> >>> particularly sent me privately at 5:00 on a
>>>>> Sunday
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> morning while
>>>>>  I was
>>>>> >>> getting ready for church.  I'm sorry and
>>>>> maybe
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> we can
>>>>> understand one
>>>>> >>> another better now.
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>  has been
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> "Loyalty
>>>>> to petrified
>>>>> >>> opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> human
>>>>> soul," American
>>>>> >>> Humorist Mark Twain
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> "An
>>>>> attack on one of
>>>>> >>> us is an attack on all of us," Dr.
>>>>> Kenneth
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> Jernigan,
>>>>> Immediate Past
>>>>> >>> President, National Federation of the Blind
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> "A
>>>>> brother offended
>>>>> >>> is harder to be won than a strong city: and
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> their
>>>>> contentions are like
>>>>> >>> the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19.
>>>>> KJV
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> "Faith
>>>>> is the ability
>>>>> >>> to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> "No one
>>>>> can do it for
>>>>> >>> us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation
>>>>> Push,
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> 1976.
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> "With
>>>>> proper
>>>>> >>> training, development, and opportunity,
>>>>> blindness can
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> be reduced to
>>>>> the level of
>>>>> >>> a physical nuisance or characteristic,"
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> the Late Dr.
>>>>> Kenneth
>>>>> >>> Jernigan, Past President, National Federation
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> of the Blind.
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> Julie Vogt or
>>>>> >>> jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> Faith-talk
>>>>> mailing list
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> To
>>>>> unsubscribe, change
>>>>> >>> your list options or get your account info
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> for
>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> Faith-talk
>>>>> mailing list
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe,
>>>>> change your
>>>>> >>> list options or get your account info for
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >>> >>>>>> Faith-talk mailing
>>>>> list
>>>>> >>> >>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> >>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe,
>>>>> change your list
>>>>> >>> options or get your account info for
>>>>> >>> >>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> >>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>> No virus found in this
>>>>> incoming
>>>>> >>> message.
>>>>> >>> >>>>> Checked by AVG -
>>>>> http://www.avg.com
>>>>> >>> >>>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus
>>>>> Database:
>>>>> >>> 270.9.0/1776 - Release Date: 11/8/2008
>>>>> >>> >>>>> 6:49 PM
>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >>> >>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> >>> >>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> >>> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change
>>>>> your list
>>>>> >>> options or get your account info for
>>>>> >>> >>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>
>>>>> >>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >>> >>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> >>> >>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> >>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> >>> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your
>>>>> list options
>>>>> >>> or get your account info for
>>>>> >>> >>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> >>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>> >>> >>> No virus found in this incoming
>>>>> message.
>>>>> >>> >>> Checked by AVG -
>>>>> http://www.avg.com
>>>>> >>> >>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus
>>>>> Database:
>>>>> >>> 270.9.0/1778 - Release Date: 11/9/2008
>>>>> >>> >>> 2:14 PM
>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >>> >>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> >>> >>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list
>>>>> options or
>>>>> >>> get your account info for
>>>>> >>> >>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>> >>> >>
>>>>> >>> >>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >>> >> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> >>> >> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> >>> >>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> >>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list
>>>>> options or get
>>>>> >>> your account info for Faith-talk:
>>>>> >>> >>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> > No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>> >>> > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>>> >>> > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database:
>>>>> 270.9.0/1778 -
>>>>> >>> Release Date: 11/9/2008 2:14 PM
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >>> > Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> >>> > Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options
>>>>> or get your
>>>>> >>> account info for Faith-talk:
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> Corey Cook
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> >>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or
>>>>> get your
>>>>> >>> account info for Faith-talk:
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/timber_wolf899%40yahoo.com
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> >> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> >>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get
>>>>> your account info for
>>>>> >> Faith-talk:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >
>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>> > Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> > Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> >
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>> account info for
>>>>> > Faith-talk:
>>>>> >
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/lynnwhite51%40sbcglobal.net
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>> account info for Faith-talk:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/timber_wolf899%40yahoo.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>>>>
>>> Corey Cook
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1778 - Release Date: 11/9/2008 2:14 PM




From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Mon Nov 10 09:19:07 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 03:19:07 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] article4
References: <A44FB971A6D54B02A2851B7A742AFEF7@TheCooksPC>
	<4383d01d0811092245p1a08f350wb42da0902dd5648f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <22E98B071846410D8928ED3BF84C74D5@Alan>

Well, you just summed it up for me.  You want to believe what you want to believe, what God says doesn't matter in the end.  Am I right?


+-+-+-

   There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. 
 1 Samuel 2:2
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 12:45 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] article4


> Hah.  This is the only article worth reading to me.  Both sides in the
> case are right, but I believe I have a right to take the side I'm on
> because I don't like to see people get hurt and see them be
> discriminated against and placed below the normals, the sighted folks,
> the able-bodied, and the normal-thinkers.
> Beth
> 
> On 11/9/08, Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net> wrote:
>> What's Really at Stake in the Gay Marriage Debate? Part 4
>> Albert Mohler
>> President, Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
>>
>> October 27, 2008
>>
>> Writing more than twenty years ago, Thomas Sowell described the basic
>> worldview clash we observe today as a struggle between "constrained" and
>> "unconstrained" visions of humanity.  The fundamental distinction between
>> these two visions is moral, but the thrust of each is ideological.  The
>> constrained vision may be considered basically conservative, while the
>> unconstrained vision is basically liberal, in modern terms.
>>
>> There is great wisdom in Sowell's analysis, and in his book, The Conflict of
>> Visions. But the greatest achievement of this book is Sowell's insistence
>> that political struggles have ideological origins.
>>
>> This is certainly true with reference to the political struggle over
>> same-sex marriage.  In California, the controversy is over "Proposition 8"
>> on the November ballot -- a measure that would amend the state's
>> constitution to establish marriage as the union of a man and a woman.
>> Voters in Arizona and Florida will face measures that would disallow
>> same-sex marriages.
>>
>> Nationwide, we face efforts to repeal the Defense of Marriage Act (a repeal
>> championed by Sen. Barack Obama) and to achieve same-sex marriage through
>> the courts.  State by state, the issue is constantly reshaped and reframed.
>>
>> At the same time, there is a sense that the public is shifting its
>> perception of the issue.  When the issue is framed as simple fairness,
>> Americans increasingly seem to tire of arguing that sexual behavior or
>> orientation (at least in terms of homosexuality) should matter when it comes
>> to the basic rights associated with marriage.  This trend is especially
>> noticeable among the young.  Younger Americans, by and large, see
>> homosexuality as part of the recognizable landscape and within the normal
>> range of human behaviors.
>>
>> All this represents a massive shift in perception over a relatively short
>> period of time.  The activists promoting the normalization of homosexuality
>> have been tremendously successful in their efforts.  The mainstream media,
>> the educational elites, and various culture shapers have pushed this cause.
>> Today, on the average college or university campus, homosexuality is not
>> considered to be a major moral issue.  Any discrimination against
>> homosexuals, on the other hand, is considered a moral issue of urgency and
>> outrage.  In much of the culture, it is considered increasingly immoral to
>> assert that homosexuality is immoral.
>>
>> There is no real ground for compromise between these two visions and
>> perspectives.  Both sides frame their argument in moral terms.  Advocates of
>> the constrained vision argue that humanity is heterosexual by default and
>> design and that homosexuality is thus an aberration to be sanctioned and
>> discouraged.  Advocates of the unconstrained vision argue that homosexuality
>> is just one among several acceptable options for humanity.
>>
>> This framework for analysis helps to explain why the two opposing sides in
>> this controversy see the issue in such starkly different terms.
>>
>> Those opposed to same-sex marriage see marriage as an essentially
>> heterosexual institution that is fundamental to human happiness and the
>> well-being of civilization.  Those who support same-sex marriage see
>> limiting marriage to heterosexuals as a way of exercising patriarchal
>> oppression against sexual minorities.  Marriage is seen, therefore, as an
>> obstacle to human happiness and autonomy that must be either destroyed or
>> radically revised.  The quest for this radical revision is seen as an act of
>> human liberation.  To the conservative, this is a mortal blow directed at
>> the very heart of the culture.
>>
>> Moral conservatives see homosexual behaviors as matters of grave moral
>> concern.  Moral liberals and libertarians see homosexuality as no more
>> morally significant than the color of one's eyes.  It's just part of what
>> makes some people who they are.
>>
>> Adding credence to Sowell's argument, a person's position on same-sex
>> marriage is a very good predictor of positions held on other issues as well.
>>  Careful observers know that this is no coincidence.  A cadre of liberal
>> Hollywood celebrities supports same-sex marriage as what they call a civil
>> rights issue and recently held fundraisers that produced millions of dollars
>> to defeat Proposition 8.  Meanwhile, opposition to same-sex marriage is most
>> discernable among conservative Christians and other conservative groups like
>> the Mormons.
>>
>> The middle ground is fast disappearing, even as arguments based in a
>> framework of natural law seem to carry no public force.  This leaves
>> conservative Christians -- evangelicals in the main -- as the bulwark of
>> opposition to same-sex marriage.  For evangelicals, the question is always a
>> question of what the Bible teaches, and the Bible straightforwardly presents
>> homosexual behaviors as immoral and sinful -- and in stark terms.
>>
>> Believers committed to biblical authority will find no way to avoid this
>> controversy, and no ground for accepting the "fairness" argument.  If the
>> Bible is the revealed Word of God, then we know that homosexuality is a sin
>> of great spiritual consequence.  Those who reject the authority of the Bible
>> will, in the end, likely come to accept some argument for the normalization
>> of homosexuality and homosexual relationships.
>>
>> Despite their massive and contentious collision over this great question,
>> the two opposing sides in this controversy are agreed on one major point --
>> the importance of the issue.  Both sides believe that the victory of their
>> position on this issue is a precondition for true human happiness and human
>> thriving.  And, truth be known, both sides see the other camp as a threat to
>> human happiness and well-being.
>>
>> To a significant degree, these opposing camps define almost all of reality
>> in starkly different terms.  Both sides bring energy and passion to the
>> public square.  Both sides see the controversy as a battle for the future of
>> civilization.
>>
>> On that point, at least, both sides are right.
>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> Find this article at: http://www.crosswalk.com/news/commentary/11583981/
>>
>> Corey Cook
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
> 
> _______________________________________________
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From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Mon Nov 10 09:19:43 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 03:19:43 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
References: <579159.68070.qm@web51906.mail.re2.yahoo.com><B8FA7640775C4FDE80497B65B4DB0E43@TheCooksPC><4383d01d0811092203o615e736fh19eb8d239fd9a81e@mail.gmail.com><4383d01d0811092207g26921e5mcef163ce40090faa@mail.gmail.com>
	<9944582CC9DF48D7BF6ADFE9F1C8841A@TheCooksPC>
Message-ID: <E641EDA4A69F4333AE1321B59440106E@Alan>

Yep, I even showed her two different scriptures that point this out.


+-+-+-

   There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. 
 1 Samuel 2:2
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Corey Cook" <ccook01 at knology.net>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 12:16 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations


> Sorry Beth,
> All people are sinners.
> Includes me and you.
> Hard pill to take sometimes
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 1:07 AM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
> 
> 
>> Okay, please don't compare my friends in college to drunks and liars.
>> They are who they are and they're different people, so please.  Just
>> ... pleeeeeeeeze don't compare them to anythng less than what they
>> are: people.
>> Beth
>>
>> On 11/10/08, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> ROTFL! What a joke!
>>> Beth
>>>
>>> On 11/10/08, Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net> wrote:
>>>> Well siad Frank
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Frank Lordi" <timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com>
>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 11:02 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> The bible clearly states that homosexual sex is an abomination.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is one of the hardest things about believing.  We must submit to
>>>>> God's law.  We are 'a stif fnecked people' so this is difficult but we
>>>>> must do it.  We need not understand, we need not agree, but we must 
>>>>> obey.
>>>>> Our Lord says those are his friends who keep his commands.  So if we 
>>>>> want
>>>>> to be his friend, we must accept among other things, that homosexual 
>>>>> sex
>>>>> is a sin.
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps it will help to look at it this way.  I like women a great 
>>>>> deal.
>>>>> I cannot stop liking women.  Often times i 'want' badly to have 
>>>>> relations
>>>>> with said women, but God's law says no, so i must follow this or accept
>>>>> the wages of sin.
>>>>>
>>>>> The same goes for homosexuals, for cleptomaniacs, for the greedy, the
>>>>> hopeless, etc.  We all have our crosses to carry, our temptations to
>>>>> resist.
>>>>>
>>>>> --- On Sun, 11/9/08, BMW <lynnwhite51 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> From: BMW <lynnwhite51 at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>>>> To: "Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 10:49 PM
>>>>>> Beth, sex outside of the relationship between a husband and
>>>>>> wife is a sin.
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>>>> To: <timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com>; "Faith-talk,for
>>>>>> the discussion of faith and
>>>>>> religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 9:12 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > Okay, if homosexuality is a sin, guess what?  What
>>>>>> about the
>>>>>> > homosexuals who have homosexual relations with each
>>>>>> other and cannot
>>>>>> > be attracted to opposite sex members?  I again may
>>>>>> mention that I have
>>>>>> > friends who are gay/lesbian.  And I am pleased with
>>>>>> Obama in the white
>>>>>> > house.  God knows what's best, and I believe in a
>>>>>> God who loves all,
>>>>>> > and God knows that homosexuality is a sin, but it is a
>>>>>> sin between
>>>>>> > those who can physically have someone of the opposite
>>>>>> sex along with
>>>>>> > being attracted with someone of the opposite sex.
>>>>>> Take my
>>>>>> > ex-boyfriend for instance.  He likes women, but if he
>>>>>> went to sleep
>>>>>> > with a young college friend of mine who I know is
>>>>>> attracted to girls,
>>>>>> > THAT is a sin.  But if my friend who is lesbian went
>>>>>> to sleep with the
>>>>>> > equally lesbian girlfriend, it is not a sin.  We must
>>>>>> love everybody
>>>>>> > unconditionally, and we must not say that they are
>>>>>> committing a sin
>>>>>> > unless they really are and have the brain chemicals
>>>>>> made up so that
>>>>>> > they are attracted to someone of the opposite sex.  I
>>>>>> am attracted to
>>>>>> > menh, so if I went to sleep with my college roommate,
>>>>>> for instance,
>>>>>> > that would be a in in itself.  I am blind, and if I
>>>>>> married a blind
>>>>>> > man, that would be fine.  But the way this country and
>>>>>> the bible seems
>>>>>> > to be interpreted, homosexuality would be stomped out
>>>>>> and next will be
>>>>>> > blindness.  Before we know it, our listservs will be
>>>>>> in jeopardy, an
>>>>>> > then, we wouldn't be able to marry, write, read,
>>>>>> go to college, and if
>>>>>> > the Terrorists get our country, and that is if Barack
>>>>>> Obama's not
>>>>>> > watching over us, we will be wearing veils if
>>>>>> we're female.  I for one
>>>>>> > do not want any ore arguments about homosexuality to
>>>>>> ever pop up again
>>>>>> > on this listserv.  I want to play it straight: it may
>>>>>> be a sin, but
>>>>>> > unfortunately, nobody understands the homosexual
>>>>>> cannot be changed if
>>>>>> > they are truly homosexual.  I understand my friends,
>>>>>> and they are good
>>>>>> > people.  They are going to college and they are going
>>>>>> to be band and
>>>>>> > chorus teachers.  Do you people thin that these girls
>>>>>> I'm friends with
>>>>>> > shouldn't be band and chorus teachers to young
>>>>>> children because they
>>>>>> > are homosexuals?  According to the weird article I
>>>>>> read, yes.  But I'd
>>>>>> > hire them any time.
>>>>>> > Anyway, that's my soap box for today.
>>>>>> > Beth
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > On 11/9/08, Frank Lordi
>>>>>> <timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>> >> you are speakin gof the concept of 'blood
>>>>>> guilt'?
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> This so often brought grief to Isreal, no?
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> --- On Sun, 11/9/08, Corey Cook
>>>>>> <ccook01 at knology.net> wrote:
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>> From: Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net>
>>>>>> >>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>>>> >>> To: "Faith-talk, for the discussion of
>>>>>> faith and religion"
>>>>>> >>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> >>> Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 8:44 PM
>>>>>> >>> Homosexuality is sin.
>>>>>> >>> Read Romans 1
>>>>>> >>> read first Corinthians 6
>>>>>> >>> Yes we need to love them just as we love all
>>>>>> sinners, but
>>>>>> >>> it is time to call it what it is, and that is
>>>>>> sin!
>>>>>> >>> It is a sin that will be the end of this
>>>>>> country if we
>>>>>> >>> allow it to be accepted and embraced.
>>>>>> >>> Not a popular thought, but a true one.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan
>>>>>> Wheeler"
>>>>>> >>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
>>>>>> >>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of
>>>>>> faith and
>>>>>> >>> religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> >>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 6:29 PM
>>>>>> >>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> > Never mind.  I keep telling you it is
>>>>>> called a sin in
>>>>>> >>> the bible...if you don't want to believe
>>>>>> that God calls
>>>>>> >>> it a sin, I can't say anything to sway
>>>>>> you.
>>>>>> >>> >
>>>>>> >>> >
>>>>>> >>> > +-+-+-
>>>>>> >>> >
>>>>>> >>> >   There is none holy as the LORD: for
>>>>>> there is none
>>>>>> >>> beside thee: neither is there any rock like
>>>>>> our God.
>>>>>> >>> > 1 Samuel 2:2
>>>>>> >>> > ~~~
>>>>>> >>> >
>>>>>> >>> > Alan D Wheeler
>>>>>> >>> > awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>>>> >>> > IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>>>> >>> > Skype: redwheel1
>>>>>> >>> > Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM
>>>>>> to 1 PM
>>>>>> >>> eastern time at www.theqonline.net
>>>>>> >>> >
>>>>>> >>> > ----- Original Message ----- From:
>>>>>> "Beth"
>>>>>> >>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>>>> >>> > To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion
>>>>>> of faith and
>>>>>> >>> religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> >>> > Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 2:41 PM
>>>>>> >>> > Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False
>>>>>> Accusations
>>>>>> >>> >
>>>>>> >>> >
>>>>>> >>> >> We're talking about a country
>>>>>> where not
>>>>>> >>> everybody believes in God.  We
>>>>>> >>> >> Christians are shoving God down the
>>>>>> throats of
>>>>>> >>> those who don't know
>>>>>> >>> >> him.  We need to pray for the
>>>>>> homosexuals and
>>>>>> >>> those who are
>>>>>> >>> >> experiencing a so-called sin ad we
>>>>>> need to be
>>>>>> >>> nicer to these people
>>>>>> >>> >> for God's own sake.
>>>>>> >>> >> Beth
>>>>>> >>> >>
>>>>>> >>> >> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler
>>>>>> >>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>>> >>> >>> At the same time, homosexuality
>>>>>> is called a
>>>>>> >>> sin and abomination by God. So
>>>>>> >>> >>> you think we should allow people
>>>>>> to continue
>>>>>> >>> to sin against God?
>>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> >>> +-+-+-
>>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>    We know that all things work
>>>>>> together for
>>>>>> >>> good for those who love God, to
>>>>>> >>> >>> those
>>>>>> >>> >>> who are called according to his
>>>>>> purpose.
>>>>>> >>> >>>  Romans 8:28
>>>>>> >>> >>> ~~~
>>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> >>> Alan D Wheeler
>>>>>> >>> >>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>>>> >>> >>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>>>> >>> >>> Skype: redwheel1
>>>>>> >>> >>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays
>>>>>> from 10 AM to 1
>>>>>> >>> PM eastern time at
>>>>>> >>> >>> www.theqonline.net
>>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> >>> >>> From: "Beth"
>>>>>> >>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>>>> >>> >>> To: "Faith-talk,for the
>>>>>> discussion of
>>>>>> >>> faith and religion"
>>>>>> >>> >>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> >>> >>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008
>>>>>> 10:44 AM
>>>>>> >>> >>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False
>>>>>> Accusations
>>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>> I would have toagree with
>>>>>> Julie.  Marriage
>>>>>> >>> is about love, not
>>>>>> >>> >>>> procreative reasons only.
>>>>>> I've known
>>>>>> >>> friends who've gotten married as
>>>>>> >>> >>>> nonprocreative peoples.
>>>>>> Also, has anybody
>>>>>> >>> thought that marriage
>>>>>> >>> >>>> should at least be for those
>>>>>> that can
>>>>>> >>> participate in it as well?
>>>>>> >>> >>>> Also, if we have bans on
>>>>>> same-sex
>>>>>> >>> marriage, think of it this way: we
>>>>>> >>> >>>> are forcing religion on the
>>>>>> people, which
>>>>>> >>> God really doesn't want us
>>>>>> >>> >>>> to do.  To be Christ-like is
>>>>>> not to shove
>>>>>> >>> God down the throats of
>>>>>> >>> >>>> those who don't know him,
>>>>>> but to
>>>>>> >>> spread God's love to them, to let
>>>>>> >>> >>>> them be free people.
>>>>>> >>> >>>> Beth
>>>>>> >>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler
>>>>>> >>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>>> >>> >>>>> Beth,
>>>>>> >>> >>>>> I gently disagree with
>>>>>> you.  Marriage
>>>>>> >>> was designed by God to be between a
>>>>>> >>> >>>>> man and a woman.
>>>>>> Don't take issue
>>>>>> >>> because I said it.  Study the Bible
>>>>>> >>> >>>>> and
>>>>>> >>> >>>>> if you still don't
>>>>>> like it, then
>>>>>> >>> you have to take it up with God.  It was
>>>>>> >>> >>>>> His idea to begin with,
>>>>>> not man's.
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>> +-+-+-
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>    The LORD is my
>>>>>> strength and song,
>>>>>> >>> and he is become my salvation: he is
>>>>>> >>> >>>>> my
>>>>>> >>> >>>>> God, and I will prepare
>>>>>> him an
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>  habitation; my
>>>>>> father's God, and
>>>>>> >>> I will exalt him.
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>  Exodus 15:2
>>>>>> >>> >>>>> ~~~
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>>>>> >>> >>>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>>>> >>> >>>>> IM me at:
>>>>>> outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>>>> >>> >>>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>>>>> >>> >>>>> Check me out on the Q,
>>>>>> Fridays from 10
>>>>>> >>> AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>>>>> >>> >>>>> www.theqonline.net
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>> ----- Original Message
>>>>>> -----
>>>>>> >>> >>>>> From: "Beth"
>>>>>> >>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> >>> discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, November
>>>>>> 09, 2008 7:29
>>>>>> >>> AM
>>>>>> >>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk]
>>>>>> False
>>>>>> >>> Accusations
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> I don't care if
>>>>>> Obama's
>>>>>> >>> half-black.  God's people will come to
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> understand a few
>>>>>> things:
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> 1. Marriage, for
>>>>>> example, is not
>>>>>> >>> between "one man and one woman".  It
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> is between two able
>>>>>> parties, same
>>>>>> >>> o different sex, that are actually
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> willing to stay
>>>>>> together.  Our
>>>>>> >>> high divorce rate of heterosexual
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> couples mostly is bad
>>>>>> for our
>>>>>> >>> children herein America.
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> 2. Abortion should
>>>>>> never happen.
>>>>>> >>> If it's something that has to do
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> with the mother's
>>>>>> life and
>>>>>> >>> health, then that's the only exception.
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> But rape and birth
>>>>>> control reasons
>>>>>> >>> are not good ones.
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> 3. Blind people can
>>>>>> and wwill have
>>>>>> >>> equal rights to vote, gain security
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> benefits, and so on.
>>>>>> Yes,
>>>>>> >>> Obama's the most liberal, but we need him.
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> Maybe he's a lot
>>>>>> more
>>>>>> >>> Christian than Bush was.  But God's people
>>>>>> must
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> not be against him.
>>>>>> I'm a
>>>>>> >>> Catholic, and I'm also a liberal as well.
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> Obama has also beat
>>>>>> Kennedy by so
>>>>>> >>> many years.  ANything having to do
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> with race is out as
>>>>>> far as I'm
>>>>>> >>> concerned.  Next, what will happen when
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> a woman is in the
>>>>>> White House?
>>>>>> >>> What about a blind woman? lol
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> Beth
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> On 11/8/08, Linda
>>>>>> Mentink
>>>>>> >>> <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> Hi Julie,
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> I'm sorry,
>>>>>> too.  I'm
>>>>>> >>> not against our president elect because
>>>>>> he's
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> black.  Fact is,
>>>>>> he's half
>>>>>> >>> black.  That's neither here nor
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> there.  It's
>>>>>> mainly
>>>>>> >>> because he's the most liberal of all in
>>>>>> Congress,
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> and I believe
>>>>>> that a lot of
>>>>>> >>> our rights will be taken away once he is
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> sworn in.
>>>>>> We'll see what
>>>>>> >>> happens, but I'm praying for him, and all
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> the rest in
>>>>>> authority over us.
>>>>>> >>>  I sent those things to you because I
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> knew you
>>>>>> wouldn't find out
>>>>>> >>> from the mainstream media.  But the
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> election has made
>>>>>> history, and
>>>>>> >>> God's people need to be more vigilent
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> than
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> ever.
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> Blessings,
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> Linda
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> At 03:33 PM
>>>>>> 11/8/2008, you
>>>>>> >>> wrote:
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> It happened
>>>>>> by accident.
>>>>>> >>> When you didn't stop attacking in my
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> in-box--those
>>>>>> of you who
>>>>>> >>> did it--people of other races by way of our
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> new
>>>>>> President-elect, I
>>>>>> >>> wrote what I wrote.  Now you know how false
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> accusations
>>>>>> hurt
>>>>>> >>> everybody.  Because of one man the
>>>>>> African-American
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> Church, and
>>>>>> people who
>>>>>> >>> attend them, have been under tremendous
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> attack ever
>>>>>> since last
>>>>>> >>> March with no let-up.  Ever since I began
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> attending and
>>>>>> became saved
>>>>>> >>> in African-American churches in 1972,
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> I've
>>>>>> heard dirty,
>>>>>> >>> dirty comments like:  "they just do in
>>>>>> their
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> church what
>>>>>> they did in
>>>>>> >>> the slave days."  In the slave days,
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>> African-Americans
>>>>>> >>> weren't permitted to know anything of the
>>>>>> Bible
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> but
>>>>>> "Servants obey
>>>>>> >>> your masters in the Lord for this is right.
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> If people say
>>>>>> what people
>>>>>> >>> have said about one another's churches
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> ever since
>>>>>> last March,
>>>>>> >>> referring to us as blind people, we'd be
>>>>>> up
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> in arms.  Let
>>>>>> us all be
>>>>>> >>> more careful.
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> It hit me
>>>>>> like a
>>>>>> >>> thunderbolt while I was playing piano at a
>>>>>> senior
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> citizens
>>>>>> building today
>>>>>> >>> why you all were upset.  And as upset as you
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> were last
>>>>>> Thursday night,
>>>>>> >>> Linda, I was that upset one month ago when
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> I read what
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> >>> particularly sent me privately at 5:00 on a
>>>>>> Sunday
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> morning while
>>>>>>  I was
>>>>>> >>> getting ready for church.  I'm sorry and
>>>>>> maybe
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> we can
>>>>>> understand one
>>>>>> >>> another better now.
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>  has been
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> "Loyalty
>>>>>> to petrified
>>>>>> >>> opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> human
>>>>>> soul," American
>>>>>> >>> Humorist Mark Twain
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> "An
>>>>>> attack on one of
>>>>>> >>> us is an attack on all of us," Dr.
>>>>>> Kenneth
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> Jernigan,
>>>>>> Immediate Past
>>>>>> >>> President, National Federation of the Blind
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> "A
>>>>>> brother offended
>>>>>> >>> is harder to be won than a strong city: and
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> their
>>>>>> contentions are like
>>>>>> >>> the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19.
>>>>>> KJV
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> "Faith
>>>>>> is the ability
>>>>>> >>> to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> "No one
>>>>>> can do it for
>>>>>> >>> us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation
>>>>>> Push,
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> 1976.
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> "With
>>>>>> proper
>>>>>> >>> training, development, and opportunity,
>>>>>> blindness can
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> be reduced to
>>>>>> the level of
>>>>>> >>> a physical nuisance or characteristic,"
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> the Late Dr.
>>>>>> Kenneth
>>>>>> >>> Jernigan, Past President, National Federation
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> of the Blind.
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> Julie Vogt or
>>>>>> >>> jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> Faith-talk
>>>>>> mailing list
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> To
>>>>>> unsubscribe, change
>>>>>> >>> your list options or get your account info
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> for
>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> Faith-talk
>>>>>> mailing list
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe,
>>>>>> change your
>>>>>> >>> list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> Faith-talk mailing
>>>>>> list
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe,
>>>>>> change your list
>>>>>> >>> options or get your account info for
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>> No virus found in this
>>>>>> incoming
>>>>>> >>> message.
>>>>>> >>> >>>>> Checked by AVG -
>>>>>> http://www.avg.com
>>>>>> >>> >>>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus
>>>>>> Database:
>>>>>> >>> 270.9.0/1776 - Release Date: 11/8/2008
>>>>>> >>> >>>>> 6:49 PM
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> >>> >>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> >>> >>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >>> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change
>>>>>> your list
>>>>>> >>> options or get your account info for
>>>>>> >>> >>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> >>> >>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> >>> >>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >>> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your
>>>>>> list options
>>>>>> >>> or get your account info for
>>>>>> >>> >>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>> >>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> >>> No virus found in this incoming
>>>>>> message.
>>>>>> >>> >>> Checked by AVG -
>>>>>> http://www.avg.com
>>>>>> >>> >>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus
>>>>>> Database:
>>>>>> >>> 270.9.0/1778 - Release Date: 11/9/2008
>>>>>> >>> >>> 2:14 PM
>>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> >>> >>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> >>> >>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list
>>>>>> options or
>>>>>> >>> get your account info for
>>>>>> >>> >>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> >>
>>>>>> >>> >>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> >>> >> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> >>> >> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >>> >>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list
>>>>>> options or get
>>>>>> >>> your account info for Faith-talk:
>>>>>> >>> >>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>>>> >>> >
>>>>>> >>> >
>>>>>> >>> >
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> >>> >
>>>>>> >>> >
>>>>>> >>> >
>>>>>> >>> > No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>>> >>> > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>>>> >>> > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database:
>>>>>> 270.9.0/1778 -
>>>>>> >>> Release Date: 11/9/2008 2:14 PM
>>>>>> >>> >
>>>>>> >>> >
>>>>>> >>> >
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> >>> > Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> >>> > Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >>> >
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options
>>>>>> or get your
>>>>>> >>> account info for Faith-talk:
>>>>>> >>> >
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>>>>>> >>> >
>>>>>> >>> Corey Cook
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> >>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> >>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or
>>>>>> get your
>>>>>> >>> account info for Faith-talk:
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/timber_wolf899%40yahoo.com
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> >> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> >> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get
>>>>>> your account info for
>>>>>> >> Faith-talk:
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>> > Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> > Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>> account info for
>>>>>> > Faith-talk:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/lynnwhite51%40sbcglobal.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>> account info for Faith-talk:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/timber_wolf899%40yahoo.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>>>>>
>>>> Corey Cook
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>>
> Corey Cook 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1778 - Release Date: 11/9/2008 2:14 PM




From cedarwoman1965 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 10 09:53:06 2008
From: cedarwoman1965 at gmail.com (Bonnie A)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 03:53:06 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
References: <E9B0A7C28DD444F7ADC7CB300F67830F@your4dacd0ea75><20081109035831.9E797AC853@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net><4383d01d0811090529o40db51do77b90bee606dc92b@mail.gmail.com><34EE51212347460BBC336CEB5D414D5A@Alan><4383d01d0811090844o4496c680xf7c1eb301ac76b6f@mail.gmail.com><F8F4968EFA6F4D5DA9552449802050AF@Alan>
	<4383d01d0811091241x6bcba8fyf245b5a9bae3889c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8F2694F64154C60A95A4B676C4FB5AC@Bonnie>

We're also called to pray and actively pray for those who don't know him. 
It's a fact that if these people choose to harden their hearts and stay 
steadfast in their position that their hearts will harden even more.  It's 
up to us as Christians to minister to these people.

Many of these people don't know Jesus because they weren't given the choice. 
In fact, I'd venture to guess that most of the gen-x adults weren't 
encouraged to attend church, so we get what we get.

------
Bonnie Ainsworth
Lincoln, NE USA


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 2:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations


We're talking about a country where not everybody believes in God.  We
Christians are shoving God down the throats of those who don't know
him.  We need to pray for the homosexuals and those who are
experiencing a so-called sin ad we need to be nicer to these people
for God's own sake. 




From cedarwoman1965 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 10 09:59:04 2008
From: cedarwoman1965 at gmail.com (Bonnie A)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 03:59:04 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
References: <17B22BE1EC2F45149C8C36923C19FEB3@TheCooksPC><356348.90200.qm@web51909.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<4383d01d0811091912k5b4dd09bud3bef5c09b3e90fb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4D7FD10A1674436AAB51C3232AD25012@Bonnie>

I don't think that's going to happen with blindness or people with 
disabilities.  We're dealing with a whole different ball of wax here. He has 
used a blind man and a paralyzed man to show people they can be healed.

Speaking of which, I've also heard it said by people who were gay and 
lesbian that it's indeed a lifestyle choice, and that there's nothing wrong 
with their brain or brain chemistry.  According to them, this is an excuse 
for them to justify their homosexuality.  It's a part of a testimony I heard 
at a conference where the speakers were and are still healed homosexuals.

------
Bonnie Ainsworth
Lincoln, NE USA


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: <timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com>; "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and 
religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 9:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations


Okay, if homosexuality is a sin, guess what?  What about the
homosexuals who have homosexual relations with each other and cannot
be attracted to opposite sex members?  I again may mention that I have
friends who are gay/lesbian.  And I am pleased with Obama in the white
house.  God knows what's best, and I believe in a God who loves all,
and God knows that homosexuality is a sin, but it is a sin between
those who can physically have someone of the opposite sex along with
being attracted with someone of the opposite sex.  Take my
ex-boyfriend for instance.  He likes women, but if he went to sleep
with a young college friend of mine who I know is attracted to girls,
THAT is a sin.  But if my friend who is lesbian went to sleep with the
equally lesbian girlfriend, it is not a sin.  We must love everybody
unconditionally, and we must not say that they are committing a sin
unless they really are and have the brain chemicals made up so that
they are attracted to someone of the opposite sex.  I am attracted to
menh, so if I went to sleep with my college roommate, for instance,
that would be a in in itself.  I am blind, and if I married a blind
man, that would be fine.  But the way this country and the bible seems
to be interpreted, homosexuality would be stomped out and next will be
blindness.  Before we know it, our listservs will be in jeopardy, an
then, we wouldn't be able to marry, write, read, go to college, and if
the Terrorists get our country, and that is if Barack Obama's not
watching over us, we will be wearing veils if we're female.  I for one
do not want any ore arguments about homosexuality to ever pop up again
on this listserv.  I want to play it straight: it may be a sin, but
unfortunately, nobody understands the homosexual cannot be changed if
they are truly homosexual.  I understand my friends, and they are good
people.  They are going to college and they are going to be band and
chorus teachers.  Do you people thin that these girls I'm friends with
shouldn't be band and chorus teachers to young children because they
are homosexuals?  According to the weird article I read, yes.  But I'd
hire them any time.
Anyway, that's my soap box for today. 




From cedarwoman1965 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 10 10:07:30 2008
From: cedarwoman1965 at gmail.com (Bonnie A)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 04:07:30 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] false accusations
References: <BAY133-DAV7C5DF97F6C797B9A3FAA2901B0@phx.gbl><3DE6C8F59A0A4C4E902D8D50D4BF8043@TheCooksPC><4383d01d0811091914k3751b511h4f7af9209ce59288@mail.gmail.com><BAY113-DS3C6688C327278D0DB7291EB1A0@phx.gbl>
	<4383d01d0811092210n35adc1edv5522f0d9cf8b8ebe@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F397E41B9D014A908A1BD832496E4ED2@Bonnie>

Again, that's a whole different ball of wax, Beth.  I am Native American and 
homosexuality is unacceptable in our culture.  The culture I come from is 
such that we still listen to our elders and medicine people and both say 
this kind of behavior brings on "bad medicine."  This is why you don't hear 
about the diseases such as HIV and AIDS in other cultural areas.  If a 
Native American is living in a homosexual lifestyle, very few people know 
about it.

------
Bonnie Ainsworth
Lincoln, NE USA

Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (P)anic


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 12:10 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] false accusations


That's not always true.  We, European Americans, brought down the
Native Americans by way of diseases, uncleanliness, and ethnic
cleansing so to speak.  We called it God's being on our side.  Right?
The Roman and Greek cvilizations did partake in homosexuality, but the
Native Americans were very peaceable people, and look what Juan Ponce
de Leon, da Gama, and many other Spanish, English, French, Dutch, and
Portuguese explorers did to this continent before it was the United
States of America! 




From cedarwoman1965 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 10 10:09:10 2008
From: cedarwoman1965 at gmail.com (Bonnie A)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 04:09:10 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
References: <579159.68070.qm@web51906.mail.re2.yahoo.com><B8FA7640775C4FDE80497B65B4DB0E43@TheCooksPC><4383d01d0811092203o615e736fh19eb8d239fd9a81e@mail.gmail.com><4383d01d0811092207g26921e5mcef163ce40090faa@mail.gmail.com>
	<9944582CC9DF48D7BF6ADFE9F1C8841A@TheCooksPC>
Message-ID: <5A1C408F92ED44208D5537E07C27FDE9@Bonnie>

If I wasn't a sinner, I wouldn't need the Lord, that's for sure.  *SMILE*

------
Bonnie Ainsworth
Lincoln, NE USA


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Corey Cook" <ccook01 at knology.net>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 12:16 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations


Sorry Beth,
All people are sinners.
Includes me and you.
Hard pill to take sometimes 




From everettg at successfuladaptations.com  Mon Nov 10 11:13:36 2008
From: everettg at successfuladaptations.com (Everett Gavel)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 06:13:36 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] "When Anxiety Strikes" - Daily Devotion for 11/10/2008
Message-ID: <001101c94325$611f1e10$5b9ef44c@IBMB7D6F383D44>

When Anxiety Strikes
In Touch Ministries, with Charles Stanley - Nov. 10, 
2008
http://www.crosswalk.com/devotionals/in_touch/


Philippians 4:6-7

6 Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, 
by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your 
requests to God.
7 And the peace of God, which transcends all 
understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in 
Christ Jesus.


If you needed a consultant, would you hire just anyone? 
Of course not. You'd want to be sure your advisor had 
experience to back up his suggestions. The apostle Paul 
was certainly qualified to teach on the value of 
contentment-he wrote from a prison cell.

In today's passage, Paul says that prayer safeguards 
the believer's heart from anxiety. Praying 
appropriately will result in the most effective 
protection, so we are wise to follow the pattern Jesus 
gave us. The Lord's Prayer underscores adoration of the 
Father and de-emphasizes self-talk (Matt. 6:9-13). God 
does desire to hear our concerns (Phil. 4:6). But if 
problems are all that keep us on our knees, then we 
have missed the main point of our relationship with 
Him.

Why does the Lord expect us to honor Him when what we 
want is immediate help for our problems? Because where 
the mind dwells, the heart follows. Focusing on His 
greatness puts our needs in perspective and encourages 
us to rest easy. He is in charge and at work (Matt. 
6:30; Rom. 8:28). Consider Jesus' prayer in Gethsemane. 
(Matt. 26:36-46) Even as the Lord was crying out for 
relief, He nevertheless submitted to the Father's 
greater will (v. 39) As a result, a supernatural peace 
fortified Christ and enabled Him to face His 
executioners.

Paul offered a radical peace plan: Praise the Lord 
while suffering persecution; thank Him when facing 
trial; and pray about everything. Each prayer braces 
your heart against anxiety. That's solid advice from a 
man who practiced what he preached.








From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Mon Nov 10 12:28:22 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 07:28:22 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
In-Reply-To: <5A1C408F92ED44208D5537E07C27FDE9@Bonnie>
References: <579159.68070.qm@web51906.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<B8FA7640775C4FDE80497B65B4DB0E43@TheCooksPC>
	<4383d01d0811092203o615e736fh19eb8d239fd9a81e@mail.gmail.com>
	<4383d01d0811092207g26921e5mcef163ce40090faa@mail.gmail.com>
	<9944582CC9DF48D7BF6ADFE9F1C8841A@TheCooksPC>
	<5A1C408F92ED44208D5537E07C27FDE9@Bonnie>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811100428j348bb904w25384046384c5b93@mail.gmail.com>

I'll have to talk to my friends and see what's up.  I want to hear
straight from them what they think of this whole thing.
Beth

On 11/10/08, Bonnie A <cedarwoman1965 at gmail.com> wrote:
> If I wasn't a sinner, I wouldn't need the Lord, that's for sure.  *SMILE*
>
> ------
> Bonnie Ainsworth
> Lincoln, NE USA
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Corey Cook" <ccook01 at knology.net>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 12:16 AM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>
>
> Sorry Beth,
> All people are sinners.
> Includes me and you.
> Hard pill to take sometimes
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>



From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Mon Nov 10 12:33:07 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 07:33:07 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] new school prayer
In-Reply-To: <A8379C6B9A784BA999CEF838A0A8F5D4@Alan>
References: <4383d01d0811092216q59181091yc699696d88694561@mail.gmail.com>
	<A8379C6B9A784BA999CEF838A0A8F5D4@Alan>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811100433o676b3facl8a7e7ba93c831672@mail.gmail.com>

You think it's ironic?  Wow, Allan.  I thought this would be cool to
post.  I don't believe in a lot of things: teen pregnancy, guns
inschools, and, come to think of it, keeping God out of the pledge.
But why should we not pray in school?  There's a reason why our
Constitution says we can't pray in school though the words aren't
written there.  The first clause of it, according to my roommate, who
works at an Anglican church, says we cannot force religion on the
people of America.  I don't think we can stop teens from being teens,
but I don't think we should encourage them to be pregnant senior
queens in the case of girls.  I believe we should empower young women
through school and so on.  If a young girl gets raped, she should have
access to the morning-after as an emergency, not as a way to abort a
potential life.  And, of course, to catch the rapist, we should use
DNA evidence.  There's a lot in that poem that I have to analyze.
Beth

On 11/10/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
> It is so ironic you would post this.  It talks about keeping God out of
> school and you won't even surrender in obedience to what God says about
> homosexuality?  Very very ironic.
>
>
> +-+-+-
>
>    There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is
> there any rock like our God.
>  1 Samuel 2:2
> ~~~
>
> Alan D Wheeler
> awheeler at neb.rr.com
> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
> Skype: redwheel1
> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
> www.theqonline.net
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 12:16 AM
> Subject: [Faith-talk] new school prayer
>
>
>> Take a look at this, guys.  My close friend sent me this one.
>>
>>> >> A kid in Arizona wrote the attached
>>> >>
>>> >> NEW School prayer :
>>> >>
>>> >> Now I sit me down in school
>>> >> Where praying is against the rule
>>> >> For this great nation under God
>>> >> Finds mention of Him very odd.
>>> >> If Scripture now the class recites,
>>> >> It violates the Bill of Rights.
>>> >> And anytime my head I bow
>>> >> Becomes a Federal matter now.
>>> >> Our hair can be purple, orange or green,
>>> >> That's no offense; it's a freedom scene.
>>> >> The law is specific, the law is precise.
>>> >> Prayers spoken aloud are a serious vice.
>>> >> For praying in a public hall
>>> >> Might offend someone with no faith at all.
>>> >> In silence alone we must meditate,
>>> >> God's name is prohibited by the state.
>>> >> We're allowed to cuss and dress like freaks,
>>> >> And pierce our noses, tongues and cheeks..
>>> >> They've outlawed guns, but FIRST the Bible.
>>> >> To quote the Good Book makes me liable.
>>> >> We can elect a pregnant Senior Queen,
>>> >> And the 'unwed daddy,' our Senior King.
>>> >> It's 'inappropriate' to teach right from wrong,
>>> >> We're taught that such 'judgments' do not belong.
>>> >> We can get our condoms and birth controls,
>>> >> Study witchcraft, vampires and totem poles.
>>> >> But the Ten Commandments are not allowed,
>>> >> No word of God must reach this crowd.
>>> >> It's scary here I must confess,
>>> >> When chaos reigns the school's a mess.
>>> >> So, Lord, this silent plea I make:
>>> >> Should I be shot; My soul please take!
>>> >> Amen
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
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From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Mon Nov 10 12:38:17 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 07:38:17 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Emailing: Last Days Ministries I'm Gay, O.K.
In-Reply-To: <9A311BBAB5BA41DEA003B08E23EAC3D0@Alan>
References: <35A03D458698454A84A02B53EB5728FC@Buster>
	<0AE2D4A5152D4796862C6EFB2E88D3AE@nickf1758c2c9d>
	<4383d01d0811091933w2fff5563r4b7dc4d58c5eb47c@mail.gmail.com>
	<005d01c942ec$28333750$5c85fe04@rjige047kjawst>
	<4383d01d0811092230p556cf25bk342c1ae7d2a0e47b@mail.gmail.com>
	<9A311BBAB5BA41DEA003B08E23EAC3D0@Alan>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811100438u38051b45u8acd9f6e117fb710@mail.gmail.com>

Okay.  So Jesus loved and healed people with disabilities, but why
didn't he heal the homosexuals?  The Bible was written in ancient
times.  We have to take the Bible seriously here.  Jesus never seems
to have healed homosexuals.
Beth

On 11/10/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
> You're completely missing why Jesus healed those people.  It was their faith
> that lead Jesus to heal them.  Not their sin.  I've already posted new
> testament passages showing this, so I won't repeat myself.
>
>
> +-+-+-
>
>    There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is
> there any rock like our God.
>  1 Samuel 2:2
> ~~~
>
> Alan D Wheeler
> awheeler at neb.rr.com
> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
> Skype: redwheel1
> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
> www.theqonline.net
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 12:30 AM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Emailing: Last Days Ministries I'm Gay, O.K.
>
>
>> You're all right about this.  But the Bible makes disabilities and
>> blindness especially look bad.  Jesus heals a blind man, and back in
>> he Biblical days, they didn't have Braille, slates and styli, the
>> Braillewriter, or even more, the Internet, computers, JAWS, and this
>> listserv.
>> Think about it.
>> It doesn't mention Jesus healing a homosexual.  Jesus never hung out
>> with homosexuals.
>> Did he?
>> Beth
>>
>> On 11/9/08, rjs059 at peoplepc.com <rjs059 at peoplepc.com> wrote:
>>> Beth, Marriage, Was a religious practice, long before the government even
>>> became involved. And furthermore, It is conceder to be a sacrament in the
>>> Catholic church.
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:33 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Emailing: Last Days Ministries I'm Gay, O.K.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Come on!  I've said it enough.  Marriage isn't going to just be
>>>> "between ONE MAN and ONE WOMAN" enough these days.  Before you know
>>>> it, Christians will interpret the Bible as being of the able-bodied to
>>>> be perfect and capable of multiplyin and so on.  This is horrible!
>>>> Bet
>>>>
>>>> On 11/9/08, trising at sbcglobal.net <trising at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>> That is an absolutely excellent article! All of us sin and fall short
>>>>> of
>>>>> the
>>>>> glory of God, whether we are gay or a gossip. Jesus loves all of us and
>>>>> came
>>>>> here to die in our place for our sins so we can go to heaven and be
>>>>> with
>>>>> him. We will not go there if we do not trust in Him alone as the
>>>>> provider
>>>>>
>>>>> of
>>>>> our salvation. People who commit any sin, and that means all of us,
>>>>> deserve
>>>>> to be loved, but not to have our sin excused or minimized. It is God's
>>>>> design for marriage to be between one man and one woman. we as
>>>>> Christians
>>>>> can stand up for what is right, while loving those caught in homosexual
>>>>> sin.
>>>>> Giving them special rights is wrong, but so is refusing to talk to
>>>>> them,
>>>>> or
>>>>> regarding them as someone God cannot save.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/rjs059%40peoplepc.com
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>> Checked by AVG.
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>>> 6:49 PM
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>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
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>
>
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>
>
>
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> _______________________________________________
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>



From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Mon Nov 10 12:40:44 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 07:40:44 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] article 1
In-Reply-To: <CD639009D761447DA40E589DE43FF10B@Alan>
References: <5F3A84795F784BB39F938F35FB1FD13B@TheCooksPC>
	<540AD6D7A71946E7A883D27649F2C41F@nickf1758c2c9d>
	<4383d01d0811092239n65ce4819jbbe399d2bc8f7b2e@mail.gmail.com>
	<CD639009D761447DA40E589DE43FF10B@Alan>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811100440q885d98dw297c6982352324a0@mail.gmail.com>

How can I explain this to my two friends that their homosexual
feelings and attractions is a sin?  How can I possibly help them
"heal" (notice thatI put it in quotes) from sexuality to the same sex?
Beth

On 11/10/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
> Then you've obviously turned your heart from God.  I am sorry if that sounds
> harsh, but if you cannot accept that God declares homosexuality as wrong,
> you are turning your back on what God has to say.
>
>
> +-+-+-
>
>    There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is
> there any rock like our God.
>  1 Samuel 2:2
> ~~~
>
> Alan D Wheeler
> awheeler at neb.rr.com
> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
> Skype: redwheel1
> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
> www.theqonline.net
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 12:39 AM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] article 1
>
>
>> Forget it.  California already did this, and so did Florida on
>> Proposition 2.  I'm done here.  This guy is speaking a bunch of tosh
>> here.  Marriage is no longer just a breeding thing.  It's love as
>> well.  I mean, if I were eighty years old and couldn't have kids,
>> could I still marry?  Yes.  I can't breed, but I could still marry.
>> Now, marriage then is not about breeding.  I don't see why his
>> argument had to go overboard.  Gay marriage to me is a civil rights
>> issue as much as it is for me a civil rights issue that we blind
>> people get to vote on things like what was passed in California and
>> Florida.
>> Beth
>>
>> On 11/9/08, trising at sbcglobal.net <trising at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> Great article!
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
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> _______________________________________________
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>



From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Mon Nov 10 12:42:34 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 07:42:34 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] article4
In-Reply-To: <22E98B071846410D8928ED3BF84C74D5@Alan>
References: <A44FB971A6D54B02A2851B7A742AFEF7@TheCooksPC>
	<4383d01d0811092245p1a08f350wb42da0902dd5648f@mail.gmail.com>
	<22E98B071846410D8928ED3BF84C74D5@Alan>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811100442r7d0b8a1x5ffc42265df8e3ad@mail.gmail.com>

You're right.  I want to believe what I want to believe, and it
doesn't matter what God's book has to say about it.  I mean, the book
says a lot about women and their place in society, and the book
doesn't say anything about us females being consecrated.  But the book
leaves us hanging as far as what to do with unwed teen mothers, which
there are a lot of.  You've obviously seen my "new school prayer"
post.
Beth

On 11/10/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
> Well, you just summed it up for me.  You want to believe what you want to
> believe, what God says doesn't matter in the end.  Am I right?
>
>
> +-+-+-
>
>    There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is
> there any rock like our God.
>  1 Samuel 2:2
> ~~~
>
> Alan D Wheeler
> awheeler at neb.rr.com
> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
> Skype: redwheel1
> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
> www.theqonline.net
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 12:45 AM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] article4
>
>
>> Hah.  This is the only article worth reading to me.  Both sides in the
>> case are right, but I believe I have a right to take the side I'm on
>> because I don't like to see people get hurt and see them be
>> discriminated against and placed below the normals, the sighted folks,
>> the able-bodied, and the normal-thinkers.
>> Beth
>>
>> On 11/9/08, Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net> wrote:
>>> What's Really at Stake in the Gay Marriage Debate? Part 4
>>> Albert Mohler
>>> President, Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
>>>
>>> October 27, 2008
>>>
>>> Writing more than twenty years ago, Thomas Sowell described the basic
>>> worldview clash we observe today as a struggle between "constrained" and
>>> "unconstrained" visions of humanity.  The fundamental distinction between
>>> these two visions is moral, but the thrust of each is ideological.  The
>>> constrained vision may be considered basically conservative, while the
>>> unconstrained vision is basically liberal, in modern terms.
>>>
>>> There is great wisdom in Sowell's analysis, and in his book, The Conflict
>>> of
>>> Visions. But the greatest achievement of this book is Sowell's insistence
>>> that political struggles have ideological origins.
>>>
>>> This is certainly true with reference to the political struggle over
>>> same-sex marriage.  In California, the controversy is over "Proposition
>>> 8"
>>> on the November ballot -- a measure that would amend the state's
>>> constitution to establish marriage as the union of a man and a woman.
>>> Voters in Arizona and Florida will face measures that would disallow
>>> same-sex marriages.
>>>
>>> Nationwide, we face efforts to repeal the Defense of Marriage Act (a
>>> repeal
>>> championed by Sen. Barack Obama) and to achieve same-sex marriage through
>>> the courts.  State by state, the issue is constantly reshaped and
>>> reframed.
>>>
>>> At the same time, there is a sense that the public is shifting its
>>> perception of the issue.  When the issue is framed as simple fairness,
>>> Americans increasingly seem to tire of arguing that sexual behavior or
>>> orientation (at least in terms of homosexuality) should matter when it
>>> comes
>>> to the basic rights associated with marriage.  This trend is especially
>>> noticeable among the young.  Younger Americans, by and large, see
>>> homosexuality as part of the recognizable landscape and within the normal
>>> range of human behaviors.
>>>
>>> All this represents a massive shift in perception over a relatively short
>>> period of time.  The activists promoting the normalization of
>>> homosexuality
>>> have been tremendously successful in their efforts.  The mainstream
>>> media,
>>> the educational elites, and various culture shapers have pushed this
>>> cause.
>>> Today, on the average college or university campus, homosexuality is not
>>> considered to be a major moral issue.  Any discrimination against
>>> homosexuals, on the other hand, is considered a moral issue of urgency
>>> and
>>> outrage.  In much of the culture, it is considered increasingly immoral
>>> to
>>> assert that homosexuality is immoral.
>>>
>>> There is no real ground for compromise between these two visions and
>>> perspectives.  Both sides frame their argument in moral terms.  Advocates
>>> of
>>> the constrained vision argue that humanity is heterosexual by default and
>>> design and that homosexuality is thus an aberration to be sanctioned and
>>> discouraged.  Advocates of the unconstrained vision argue that
>>> homosexuality
>>> is just one among several acceptable options for humanity.
>>>
>>> This framework for analysis helps to explain why the two opposing sides
>>> in
>>> this controversy see the issue in such starkly different terms.
>>>
>>> Those opposed to same-sex marriage see marriage as an essentially
>>> heterosexual institution that is fundamental to human happiness and the
>>> well-being of civilization.  Those who support same-sex marriage see
>>> limiting marriage to heterosexuals as a way of exercising patriarchal
>>> oppression against sexual minorities.  Marriage is seen, therefore, as an
>>> obstacle to human happiness and autonomy that must be either destroyed or
>>> radically revised.  The quest for this radical revision is seen as an act
>>> of
>>> human liberation.  To the conservative, this is a mortal blow directed at
>>> the very heart of the culture.
>>>
>>> Moral conservatives see homosexual behaviors as matters of grave moral
>>> concern.  Moral liberals and libertarians see homosexuality as no more
>>> morally significant than the color of one's eyes.  It's just part of what
>>> makes some people who they are.
>>>
>>> Adding credence to Sowell's argument, a person's position on same-sex
>>> marriage is a very good predictor of positions held on other issues as
>>> well.
>>>  Careful observers know that this is no coincidence.  A cadre of liberal
>>> Hollywood celebrities supports same-sex marriage as what they call a
>>> civil
>>> rights issue and recently held fundraisers that produced millions of
>>> dollars
>>> to defeat Proposition 8.  Meanwhile, opposition to same-sex marriage is
>>> most
>>> discernable among conservative Christians and other conservative groups
>>> like
>>> the Mormons.
>>>
>>> The middle ground is fast disappearing, even as arguments based in a
>>> framework of natural law seem to carry no public force.  This leaves
>>> conservative Christians -- evangelicals in the main -- as the bulwark of
>>> opposition to same-sex marriage.  For evangelicals, the question is
>>> always a
>>> question of what the Bible teaches, and the Bible straightforwardly
>>> presents
>>> homosexual behaviors as immoral and sinful -- and in stark terms.
>>>
>>> Believers committed to biblical authority will find no way to avoid this
>>> controversy, and no ground for accepting the "fairness" argument.  If the
>>> Bible is the revealed Word of God, then we know that homosexuality is a
>>> sin
>>> of great spiritual consequence.  Those who reject the authority of the
>>> Bible
>>> will, in the end, likely come to accept some argument for the
>>> normalization
>>> of homosexuality and homosexual relationships.
>>>
>>> Despite their massive and contentious collision over this great question,
>>> the two opposing sides in this controversy are agreed on one major point
>>> --
>>> the importance of the issue.  Both sides believe that the victory of
>>> their
>>> position on this issue is a precondition for true human happiness and
>>> human
>>> thriving.  And, truth be known, both sides see the other camp as a threat
>>> to
>>> human happiness and well-being.
>>>
>>> To a significant degree, these opposing camps define almost all of
>>> reality
>>> in starkly different terms.  Both sides bring energy and passion to the
>>> public square.  Both sides see the controversy as a battle for the future
>>> of
>>> civilization.
>>>
>>> On that point, at least, both sides are right.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Find this article at: http://www.crosswalk.com/news/commentary/11583981/
>>>
>>> Corey Cook
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>
>
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>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
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From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Mon Nov 10 12:44:29 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 07:44:29 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] false accusations
In-Reply-To: <F397E41B9D014A908A1BD832496E4ED2@Bonnie>
References: <BAY133-DAV7C5DF97F6C797B9A3FAA2901B0@phx.gbl>
	<3DE6C8F59A0A4C4E902D8D50D4BF8043@TheCooksPC>
	<4383d01d0811091914k3751b511h4f7af9209ce59288@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY113-DS3C6688C327278D0DB7291EB1A0@phx.gbl>
	<4383d01d0811092210n35adc1edv5522f0d9cf8b8ebe@mail.gmail.com>
	<F397E41B9D014A908A1BD832496E4ED2@Bonnie>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811100444v6cb4d649ldc37f53d299c05c9@mail.gmail.com>

So tell me, Bonnie, what tribe you're from.  If it doesn't bother you,
tell me.  It just makes me wonder why Native Americans suffered more
losses than say the homosexuals in Germany during the Nazi period.
Beth

On 11/10/08, Bonnie A <cedarwoman1965 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Again, that's a whole different ball of wax, Beth.  I am Native American and
> homosexuality is unacceptable in our culture.  The culture I come from is
> such that we still listen to our elders and medicine people and both say
> this kind of behavior brings on "bad medicine."  This is why you don't hear
> about the diseases such as HIV and AIDS in other cultural areas.  If a
> Native American is living in a homosexual lifestyle, very few people know
> about it.
>
> ------
> Bonnie Ainsworth
> Lincoln, NE USA
>
> Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (P)anic
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 12:10 AM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] false accusations
>
>
> That's not always true.  We, European Americans, brought down the
> Native Americans by way of diseases, uncleanliness, and ethnic
> cleansing so to speak.  We called it God's being on our side.  Right?
> The Roman and Greek cvilizations did partake in homosexuality, but the
> Native Americans were very peaceable people, and look what Juan Ponce
> de Leon, da Gama, and many other Spanish, English, French, Dutch, and
> Portuguese explorers did to this continent before it was the United
> States of America!
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>



From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Mon Nov 10 12:48:03 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 07:48:03 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] More about homosexuality.
In-Reply-To: <6776FAA89EFF4D258D27EBD02570A75A@Alan>
References: <45DA65A746C4427D84681755CC35CB99@Alan>
	<4383d01d0811091253x2afd9cffu8fc0dcd74995a54d@mail.gmail.com>
	<31C23822BE7246E2A07426880ABA96D4@lynnwhitePC>
	<63A3EFD1C0EF4E9787C2EFA87034453E@TheCooksPC>
	<6776FAA89EFF4D258D27EBD02570A75A@Alan>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811100448u306e751ra0f68ebb04c822a7@mail.gmail.com>

That's weird.  I know that St. Paul preaches against group sex and
other kinds of weird forms of sex acts, but Jesus not hanging out with
or healing homosexuals is just odd.  If homosexuality is seen as a sin
in the Bible, why isn't it clearly stated that it can be healed?  Both
Protestants and Conservative Catholics feel this way, but I don't
think that the homosexual attractions my friends experiece can be
healed.
Beth

On 11/10/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
> Yes, and that by grace we are saved.  God's grace is truly amazing, isn't
> it?
>
>
> +-+-+-
>
>    There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is
> there any rock like our God.
>  1 Samuel 2:2
> ~~~
>
> Alan D Wheeler
> awheeler at neb.rr.com
> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
> Skype: redwheel1
> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
> www.theqonline.net
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Corey Cook" <ccook01 at knology.net>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:51 PM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] More about homosexuality.
>
>
>> The great part is Paul says that that was what we were before we were
>> forgiven.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "BMW" <lynnwhite51 at sbcglobal.net>
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:21 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] More about homosexuality.
>>
>>
>>> well, Beth, your view goes against the old and new Testament.  Nobody is
>>> being a bigot or anything like that.
>>>
>>> What do you do with the verses that speak against adultery, drunkardness,
>>>
>>> slanderers, fornicators?  Paul says that all of have fit into one of
>>> these
>>> categories before we were forgiven.
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 2:53 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] More about homosexuality.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Allan, this article is severely biased and is hurtful to homosexual
>>>> friends of mine.  Thank God they didn't read this.  To be honest, I
>>>> love my friends, all my friends heterosexual and homosexual.  Every
>>>> kid has the right to two loving parents, but not necessarily a mom and
>>>> a dad.  Gay couples and lesbian couples are still adoptable couples.
>>>> I've seen a lesbian couple that adopted two Cree First Nations
>>>> children.  I saw a gay couple adopt special needs twins who had
>>>> addiction problems.  This country needs to be more progressive and
>>>> stop attacking homosexuals because they are homosexuals.  Before you
>>>> know it, Allan, this country will put blind and visually impaired
>>>> people as well as cognitively disabled people in their places: along
>>>> with the homosexuals, below sighted and heterosexual people.  Before
>>>> you know it, Allan, African Americans will be kicked out of office and
>>>> there will be an assassination attempt on Barack Obama, who I hope
>>>> will reign for eight long and healthy years.  Please watch what you're
>>>> saying!  We're all Christians on this list!  Can't we accept others'
>>>> beliefs and opinions here?  I'm not trying to be psychic and prophetic
>>>> here, but please understand that I am very concerned that this nation
>>>> is going to fall down like Rome did and we won't have a very healthy
>>>> end if you know what I mean.  And not everybody believes in God.  And
>>>> God loves everybody, and even though it is written that homosexuality
>>>> is a sin, attacking homosexuals who are not atracted and refuse to be
>>>> attracted to the opposite sex is wrong.  We cannot an will not attack
>>>> others because they are a different brand of homo sapiens sapiens.
>>>> Beth
>>>>
>>>> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>> I went to www.biblegateway.com to see what I could find about
>>>>> homosexuality
>>>>> and the bible.  This was among the resources.  So, again I say, and
>>>>> this
>>>>> is
>>>>> my last comment on the subject, if you disagree that marriage is only
>>>>> for
>>>>> men and women, then your argument is with God.  It's in His book.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.faithfacts.org/christ-and-the-culture/gay-rights#marriage
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  Sanctity of Marriage
>>>>> In recent years, the homosexual movement has centered on giving
>>>>> marriage-like benefits to gay couples. Many in the culture have
>>>>> mistakenly
>>>>> concluded that marriage is merely an institution for the convenience of
>>>>> adults. In actuality, marriage is the bedrock institution for culture
>>>>> to
>>>>> sustain itself through having and nurturing children. There are
>>>>> complementary aspects to a man and woman that are important to the
>>>>> instutution of marriage which go beyond the obvious physical
>>>>> attributes.
>>>>> There are things that a man needs that can only be provided by a woman,
>>>>>
>>>>> and
>>>>> vice versa.
>>>>>
>>>>> These complementary aspects are important to the relationship of the
>>>>> couple
>>>>> itself, as well as to the children. One does not have to appeal to
>>>>> religion
>>>>> to instinctively understand this. Yet statistics verify the structure
>>>>> of
>>>>> the
>>>>> traditional family as the approach to raising children that gives the
>>>>> best
>>>>> measurable results. The overwhelming body of social science research
>>>>> agrees
>>>>> that children do best when raised in homes with married, opposite-sex
>>>>> parents. Every child has the right to both a mom and a dad.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yet we cannot divorce the institution of marriage from its theological
>>>>> roots. We acknowledge that marriage is an institution given by God
>>>>> (Genesis
>>>>> 2:24). The Creator of the Universe established the relationship between
>>>>>
>>>>> a
>>>>> man and a woman, thus it is a divine institution, not a human one. To
>>>>> confer
>>>>> marriage-like rights to gays is not the prerogative of people (Matthew
>>>>> 19:6). (This includes civil unions or domestic partnerships, as they
>>>>> are
>>>>> merely marriage by other names.) Defining marriage is the prerogative
>>>>> of
>>>>> God. Whatever may tend to undermine the institution of marriage would
>>>>> also
>>>>> undermine the authority of God, as well as hurt society.
>>>>>
>>>>> Liberals may argue, "Why should we arbitrarily select only heterosexual
>>>>> couples for marriage? What can it hurt if two homosexuals want to
>>>>> marry?"
>>>>> The answer is surprisingly simple. The institution of marriage between
>>>>> and
>>>>> man a woman is not, in fact, arbitrary. It's purpose is clear and of
>>>>> utmost
>>>>> importance to society.
>>>>>
>>>>> David Orland in an article entitled "The Deceit of Gay Marriage" puts
>>>>> it
>>>>> very well. He says:
>>>>>
>>>>>   To justify giving privileges or exemptions or subsidies to some
>>>>> particular
>>>>> group in society, the benefit of doing so for society at large must
>>>>> first be
>>>>> shown. With heterosexual marriage, the case is clear enough.
>>>>> Heterosexual
>>>>> marriage is a matter of genuine social interest because the family is
>>>>> essential to society's reproduction. The crux of my argument, in other
>>>>> words, was that married couples receive the benefits they do, not
>>>>> because
>>>>> the state is interested in promoting romantic love, or because the
>>>>> Bible
>>>>> says so or because of the influence of special interest groups but
>>>>> rather
>>>>> because the next generation is something that is and should be of
>>>>> interest
>>>>> to all of us. And, by definition, this is not a case that can be made
>>>>> for
>>>>> homosexual unions. To that degree, the attempt to turn the question of
>>>>> domestic partnership into a debate about fairness falls flat.
>>>>>
>>>>>   The more persistent supporters of domestic partnership will of course
>>>>> respond to this argument by pointing to the case in which homosexual
>>>>> partners adopt children or, in the case of lesbians, undergo artificial
>>>>> insemination. The intention here is to show that the nuclear family is
>>>>> found
>>>>> even among homosexual couples and that, to that extent, homosexual
>>>>> unions do
>>>>> indeed meet the same criterion of social interest as heterosexual ones
>>>>> and
>>>>> thus should be granted legal status. It is a weak argument and one that
>>>>> ultimately back-fires on those who employ it. This is for two reasons:
>>>>>
>>>>>   First, adoption by homosexual couples is still exceedingly rare and
>>>>> the
>>>>> law-though many are surprised to learn this-is aimed at the general
>>>>> case. To
>>>>> confer legal benefits on the entire class of would-be homosexual
>>>>> spouses
>>>>> just because some very small minority of this class approximates the
>>>>> pattern
>>>>> of the nuclear family would be a bit like admitting all applicants to a
>>>>> select university on the grounds that a few of them had been shown to
>>>>> meet
>>>>> the entrance requirements.
>>>>>
>>>>>   Second, the right of this small minority to the benefits of marriage
>>>>> is
>>>>> dubious in the extreme. Homosexual "families" of whatever type are
>>>>> always
>>>>> and necessarily parasitic on heterosexual ones.
>>>>>
>>>>> Every child has the right to a mom and a dad. See 5 Reasons Why
>>>>> Same-Sex
>>>>> Marriage Harms Children.
>>>>>
>>>>> But homosexuals not only want fair treatment, they are pushing for
>>>>> "Super
>>>>> Rights." According the Paul Cameron of the Family Research Institute:
>>>>>
>>>>>   "Every member of society has a duty to contribute to the
>>>>> commonwealth.
>>>>> Yet
>>>>> the empirical evidence indicates that those who engage in homosexuality
>>>>>
>>>>> 1)
>>>>> contribute less and cost more in goods and services, 2)
>>>>> disproportionately
>>>>> disrupt social functioning, and 3) have few children while being more
>>>>> apt to
>>>>> harm them. Thus, homosexual practioners not only fail to 'pay for their
>>>>> keep,' but by their negative influence on children, cloud society's
>>>>> future.
>>>>>
>>>>>   Those who engage in homosexuality seek what they say are 'gay
>>>>> rights."
>>>>> In
>>>>> reality, they are demanding Super Rights. Super Rights are those
>>>>> privileges
>>>>> that allow one to ovverride the inalienable rights of other citizens,
>>>>> such
>>>>> as freedom of speech and association. These Super Rights-which are
>>>>> conferred
>>>>> by 'non-discrimination,' 'hate crime,' and 'hate speech' laws-allow
>>>>> homosexuals, if they so choose, to endanger or punish those who would
>>>>> exercise their associational rights to avoid them or protect their
>>>>> children
>>>>> from them.
>>>>>
>>>>>   As an example, empirical studies to date indicate that a male teacher
>>>>>
>>>>> who
>>>>> practices homosexuality is the most likely kind of teacher to sexually
>>>>> molest students. A principal knowing this may not want to hire a
>>>>> teacher
>>>>> who
>>>>> declares his homosexual interests. But if that teacher wants the job,
>>>>> his
>>>>> Super Rights trump the associational rights of the principal as well as
>>>>>
>>>>> the
>>>>> right of students not to experience extra risk (especially since safety
>>>>>
>>>>> is
>>>>> part of their right to life). Parents renting out one side of their
>>>>> duplex
>>>>> may not want to place their children at risk by renting to a gay
>>>>> couple.
>>>>> But
>>>>> if-even on a whim - the homosexuals want the duplex, their Super Rights
>>>>> trump the property and associational rights of the parents as well as
>>>>> their
>>>>> children's right not to be exposed to potential molestation.
>>>>>
>>>>>   The Super Rights of homosexual practitioners also squelch the right
>>>>> of
>>>>> others to freedom of speech. If a broadcaster opines that homosexual
>>>>> sex
>>>>> is
>>>>> dangerous, but a homosexual finds such speech 'offensive,' his Super
>>>>> Rights
>>>>> trump the broadcaster's freedom of speech and the broadcaster may be
>>>>> fined
>>>>> or imprisoned."
>>>>>
>>>>> The concept of hate crimes seems particularly reprehensible. If one of
>>>>> your
>>>>> (heterosexual) loved ones is the object of a despicable crime, the
>>>>> perpetrator would receive a lesser punishment than someone who
>>>>> committed
>>>>> the
>>>>> same act against someone who practices homosexual sex!
>>>>>
>>>>> +-+-+-
>>>>>
>>>>>    He has made clear to you, O man, what is good; and what is desired
>>>>> from
>>>>> you by the Lord; only doing what is
>>>>>  right, and loving mercy, and walking without pride before your God.
>>>>> Micah
>>>>> 6:8
>>>>> ~~~
>>>>>
>>>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>>>> www.theqonline.net
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/lynnwhite51%40sbcglobal.net
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>>>
>> Corey Cook
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>
>
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>
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>



From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Mon Nov 10 12:48:59 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 07:48:59 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] For Beth: homosexuals unchangeable WAS Re: False
	Accusations
In-Reply-To: <A77498A5EC0E4D45AA11A97E6431B4A9@Alan>
References: <17B22BE1EC2F45149C8C36923C19FEB3@TheCooksPC>
	<356348.90200.qm@web51909.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<4383d01d0811091912k5b4dd09bud3bef5c09b3e90fb@mail.gmail.com>
	<A77498A5EC0E4D45AA11A97E6431B4A9@Alan>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811100448l7bd13cebt2995ac7c624c4e62@mail.gmail.com>

Sure.
I'm open to this, and I'll tell my friends wha's up.
Beth

On 11/10/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
> Beth,
> Your friends can be changed.  God can change them.  God didn't design them
> to be homosexuals.  If you believe that, you are believing a lie.
>
> Let me look up resources where homosexuals have given up their lifestyles
> for the sake of God and Jesus Christ, are you open to that?
>
>
> +-+-+-
>
>    There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is
> there any rock like our God.
>  1 Samuel 2:2
> ~~~
>
> Alan D Wheeler
> awheeler at neb.rr.com
> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
> Skype: redwheel1
> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
> www.theqonline.net
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> To: <timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com>; "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and
> religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 9:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>
>
>> Okay, if homosexuality is a sin, guess what?  What about the
>> homosexuals who have homosexual relations with each other and cannot
>> be attracted to opposite sex members?  I again may mention that I have
>> friends who are gay/lesbian.  And I am pleased with Obama in the white
>> house.  God knows what's best, and I believe in a God who loves all,
>> and God knows that homosexuality is a sin, but it is a sin between
>> those who can physically have someone of the opposite sex along with
>> being attracted with someone of the opposite sex.  Take my
>> ex-boyfriend for instance.  He likes women, but if he went to sleep
>> with a young college friend of mine who I know is attracted to girls,
>> THAT is a sin.  But if my friend who is lesbian went to sleep with the
>> equally lesbian girlfriend, it is not a sin.  We must love everybody
>> unconditionally, and we must not say that they are committing a sin
>> unless they really are and have the brain chemicals made up so that
>> they are attracted to someone of the opposite sex.  I am attracted to
>> menh, so if I went to sleep with my college roommate, for instance,
>> that would be a in in itself.  I am blind, and if I married a blind
>> man, that would be fine.  But the way this country and the bible seems
>> to be interpreted, homosexuality would be stomped out and next will be
>> blindness.  Before we know it, our listservs will be in jeopardy, an
>> then, we wouldn't be able to marry, write, read, go to college, and if
>> the Terrorists get our country, and that is if Barack Obama's not
>> watching over us, we will be wearing veils if we're female.  I for one
>> do not want any ore arguments about homosexuality to ever pop up again
>> on this listserv.  I want to play it straight: it may be a sin, but
>> unfortunately, nobody understands the homosexual cannot be changed if
>> they are truly homosexual.  I understand my friends, and they are good
>> people.  They are going to college and they are going to be band and
>> chorus teachers.  Do you people thin that these girls I'm friends with
>> shouldn't be band and chorus teachers to young children because they
>> are homosexuals?  According to the weird article I read, yes.  But I'd
>> hire them any time.
>> Anyway, that's my soap box for today.
>> Beth
>>
>> On 11/9/08, Frank Lordi <timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> you are speakin gof the concept of 'blood guilt'?
>>>
>>> This so often brought grief to Isreal, no?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --- On Sun, 11/9/08, Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> From: Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>> To: "Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 8:44 PM
>>>> Homosexuality is sin.
>>>> Read Romans 1
>>>> read first Corinthians 6
>>>> Yes we need to love them just as we love all sinners, but
>>>> it is time to call it what it is, and that is sin!
>>>> It is a sin that will be the end of this country if we
>>>> allow it to be accepted and embraced.
>>>> Not a popular thought, but a true one.
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Wheeler"
>>>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and
>>>> religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 6:29 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > Never mind.  I keep telling you it is called a sin in
>>>> the bible...if you don't want to believe that God calls
>>>> it a sin, I can't say anything to sway you.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > +-+-+-
>>>> >
>>>> >   There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none
>>>> beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
>>>> > 1 Samuel 2:2
>>>> > ~~~
>>>> >
>>>> > Alan D Wheeler
>>>> > awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>> > IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>> > Skype: redwheel1
>>>> > Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM
>>>> eastern time at www.theqonline.net
>>>> >
>>>> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beth"
>>>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>> > To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and
>>>> religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> > Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 2:41 PM
>>>> > Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >> We're talking about a country where not
>>>> everybody believes in God.  We
>>>> >> Christians are shoving God down the throats of
>>>> those who don't know
>>>> >> him.  We need to pray for the homosexuals and
>>>> those who are
>>>> >> experiencing a so-called sin ad we need to be
>>>> nicer to these people
>>>> >> for God's own sake.
>>>> >> Beth
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler
>>>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>>> >>> At the same time, homosexuality is called a
>>>> sin and abomination by God. So
>>>> >>> you think we should allow people to continue
>>>> to sin against God?
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> +-+-+-
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>    We know that all things work together for
>>>> good for those who love God, to
>>>> >>> those
>>>> >>> who are called according to his purpose.
>>>> >>>  Romans 8:28
>>>> >>> ~~~
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Alan D Wheeler
>>>> >>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>> >>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>> >>> Skype: redwheel1
>>>> >>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1
>>>> PM eastern time at
>>>> >>> www.theqonline.net
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> >>> From: "Beth"
>>>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>> >>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of
>>>> faith and religion"
>>>> >>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> >>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:44 AM
>>>> >>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> I would have toagree with Julie.  Marriage
>>>> is about love, not
>>>> >>>> procreative reasons only.  I've known
>>>> friends who've gotten married as
>>>> >>>> nonprocreative peoples.  Also, has anybody
>>>> thought that marriage
>>>> >>>> should at least be for those that can
>>>> participate in it as well?
>>>> >>>> Also, if we have bans on same-sex
>>>> marriage, think of it this way: we
>>>> >>>> are forcing religion on the people, which
>>>> God really doesn't want us
>>>> >>>> to do.  To be Christ-like is not to shove
>>>> God down the throats of
>>>> >>>> those who don't know him, but to
>>>> spread God's love to them, to let
>>>> >>>> them be free people.
>>>> >>>> Beth
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler
>>>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>>> Beth,
>>>> >>>>> I gently disagree with you.  Marriage
>>>> was designed by God to be between a
>>>> >>>>> man and a woman.  Don't take issue
>>>> because I said it.  Study the Bible
>>>> >>>>> and
>>>> >>>>> if you still don't like it, then
>>>> you have to take it up with God.  It was
>>>> >>>>> His idea to begin with, not man's.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> +-+-+-
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>    The LORD is my strength and song,
>>>> and he is become my salvation: he is
>>>> >>>>> my
>>>> >>>>> God, and I will prepare him an
>>>> >>>>>  habitation; my father's God, and
>>>> I will exalt him.
>>>> >>>>>  Exodus 15:2
>>>> >>>>> ~~~
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>>> >>>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>> >>>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>> >>>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>>> >>>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10
>>>> AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>>> >>>>> www.theqonline.net
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> >>>>> From: "Beth"
>>>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>> >>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the
>>>> discussion of faith and religion"
>>>> >>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 7:29
>>>> AM
>>>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False
>>>> Accusations
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> I don't care if Obama's
>>>> half-black.  God's people will come to
>>>> >>>>>> understand a few things:
>>>> >>>>>> 1. Marriage, for example, is not
>>>> between "one man and one woman".  It
>>>> >>>>>> is between two able parties, same
>>>> o different sex, that are actually
>>>> >>>>>> willing to stay together.  Our
>>>> high divorce rate of heterosexual
>>>> >>>>>> couples mostly is bad for our
>>>> children herein America.
>>>> >>>>>> 2. Abortion should never happen.
>>>> If it's something that has to do
>>>> >>>>>> with the mother's life and
>>>> health, then that's the only exception.
>>>> >>>>>> But rape and birth control reasons
>>>> are not good ones.
>>>> >>>>>> 3. Blind people can and wwill have
>>>> equal rights to vote, gain security
>>>> >>>>>> benefits, and so on.  Yes,
>>>> Obama's the most liberal, but we need him.
>>>> >>>>>> Maybe he's a lot more
>>>> Christian than Bush was.  But God's people must
>>>> >>>>>> not be against him.  I'm a
>>>> Catholic, and I'm also a liberal as well.
>>>> >>>>>> Obama has also beat Kennedy by so
>>>> many years.  ANything having to do
>>>> >>>>>> with race is out as far as I'm
>>>> concerned.  Next, what will happen when
>>>> >>>>>> a woman is in the White House?
>>>> What about a blind woman? lol
>>>> >>>>>> Beth
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> On 11/8/08, Linda Mentink
>>>> <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Julie,
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> I'm sorry, too.  I'm
>>>> not against our president elect because he's
>>>> >>>>>>> black.  Fact is, he's half
>>>> black.  That's neither here nor
>>>> >>>>>>> there.  It's mainly
>>>> because he's the most liberal of all in Congress,
>>>> >>>>>>> and I believe that a lot of
>>>> our rights will be taken away once he is
>>>> >>>>>>> sworn in.  We'll see what
>>>> happens, but I'm praying for him, and all
>>>> >>>>>>> the rest in authority over us.
>>>>  I sent those things to you because I
>>>> >>>>>>> knew you wouldn't find out
>>>> from the mainstream media.  But the
>>>> >>>>>>> election has made history, and
>>>> God's people need to be more vigilent
>>>> >>>>>>> than
>>>> >>>>>>> ever.
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> Blessings,
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> Linda
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> At 03:33 PM 11/8/2008, you
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>>> It happened by accident.
>>>> When you didn't stop attacking in my
>>>> >>>>>>>> in-box--those of you who
>>>> did it--people of other races by way of our
>>>> >>>>>>>> new President-elect, I
>>>> wrote what I wrote.  Now you know how false
>>>> >>>>>>>> accusations hurt
>>>> everybody.  Because of one man the African-American
>>>> >>>>>>>> Church, and people who
>>>> attend them, have been under tremendous
>>>> >>>>>>>> attack ever since last
>>>> March with no let-up.  Ever since I began
>>>> >>>>>>>> attending and became saved
>>>> in African-American churches in 1972,
>>>> >>>>>>>> I've heard dirty,
>>>> dirty comments like:  "they just do in their
>>>> >>>>>>>> church what they did in
>>>> the slave days."  In the slave days,
>>>> >>>>>>>> African-Americans
>>>> weren't permitted to know anything of the Bible
>>>> >>>>>>>> but "Servants obey
>>>> your masters in the Lord for this is right.
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> If people say what people
>>>> have said about one another's churches
>>>> >>>>>>>> ever since last March,
>>>> referring to us as blind people, we'd be up
>>>> >>>>>>>> in arms.  Let us all be
>>>> more careful.
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> It hit me like a
>>>> thunderbolt while I was playing piano at a senior
>>>> >>>>>>>> citizens building today
>>>> why you all were upset.  And as upset as you
>>>> >>>>>>>> were last Thursday night,
>>>> Linda, I was that upset one month ago when
>>>> >>>>>>>> I read what you
>>>> particularly sent me privately at 5:00 on a Sunday
>>>> >>>>>>>> morning while  I was
>>>> getting ready for church.  I'm sorry and maybe
>>>> >>>>>>>> we can understand one
>>>> another better now.
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>  has been
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> "Loyalty to petrified
>>>> opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a
>>>> >>>>>>>> human soul," American
>>>> Humorist Mark Twain
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> "An attack on one of
>>>> us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth
>>>> >>>>>>>> Jernigan, Immediate Past
>>>> President, National Federation of the Blind
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> "A brother offended
>>>> is harder to be won than a strong city: and
>>>> >>>>>>>> their contentions are like
>>>> the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> "Faith is the ability
>>>> to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> "No one can do it for
>>>> us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push,
>>>> >>>>>>>> 1976.
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> "With proper
>>>> training, development, and opportunity, blindness can
>>>> >>>>>>>> be reduced to the level of
>>>> a physical nuisance or characteristic,"
>>>> >>>>>>>> the Late Dr. Kenneth
>>>> Jernigan, Past President, National Federation
>>>> >>>>>>>> of the Blind.
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> Julie Vogt or
>>>> jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> >>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change
>>>> your list options or get your account info
>>>> >>>>>>>> for Faith-talk:
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> >>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your
>>>> list options or get your account info for
>>>> >>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> >>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list
>>>> options or get your account info for
>>>> >>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> No virus found in this incoming
>>>> message.
>>>> >>>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>> >>>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database:
>>>> 270.9.0/1776 - Release Date: 11/8/2008
>>>> >>>>> 6:49 PM
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> >>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list
>>>> options or get your account info for
>>>> >>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> >>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> >>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options
>>>> or get your account info for
>>>> >>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> >>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>> >>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>> >>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database:
>>>> 270.9.0/1778 - Release Date: 11/9/2008
>>>> >>> 2:14 PM
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> >>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> >>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or
>>>> get your account info for
>>>> >>> Faith-talk:
>>>> >>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>> >> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> >> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> >>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get
>>>> your account info for Faith-talk:
>>>> >>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>> > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>> > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1778 -
>>>> Release Date: 11/9/2008 2:14 PM
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> > Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> >
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>> account info for Faith-talk:
>>>> >
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>>>> >
>>>> Corey Cook
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>> account info for Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/timber_wolf899%40yahoo.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1778 - Release Date: 11/9/2008
> 2:14 PM
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>



From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Mon Nov 10 12:50:12 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 07:50:12 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] article 2
In-Reply-To: <F6E22E4B791B4316A8B2952557992B25@TheCooksPC>
References: <6FC4D51897564B62B1781410DF39FCB3@TheCooksPC>
	<4383d01d0811092226p5f85cb5flb5d792fc4f5c4335@mail.gmail.com>
	<F6E22E4B791B4316A8B2952557992B25@TheCooksPC>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811100450o4dd93ab7x895c5ebdc77bd669@mail.gmail.com>

Okay.  That's your opinion and you have good arguments behind it.
Beth

On 11/10/08, Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net> wrote:
> Not twisted.
> The truth.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 1:26 AM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] article 2
>
>
>> Hah.  This is a very twisted debate.  I'm moving to the Netherlands if
>> this keeps up. lol
>> Beth
>>
>> On 11/9/08, Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net> wrote:
>>> What's Really at Stake in the Gay Marriage Debate? Part 2
>>> Albert Mohler
>>> President, Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
>>>
>>> October 20, 2008
>>>
>>> Editor's Note: This article is the second in a series. Click here to read
>>> part one.
>>>
>>> Same-sex marriage is, for now, legal in three of fifty states in the
>>> United
>>> States.  Beyond our borders, it is legal in the Netherlands, Spain,
>>> Belgium,
>>> South Africa, Canada and Norway.  This represents a very small percentage
>>>
>>> of
>>> the world's population.  Same-sex marriage is, by any measure, the
>>> exception
>>> rather than the rule.  Even when legalized civil unions and domestic
>>> partnerships are thrown into the mix, the countries that consider
>>> same-sex
>>> unions and heterosexual marriages to be equal before the law represent a
>>> small percentage of the world's nations.
>>>
>>> Keep that in mind when you observe the media's coverage of the issue.  By
>>> and large, the mainstream media have presented opposition to same-sex
>>> marriage as the odd and out-of-step position and support for same-sex
>>> marriage as the mainstream assumption.
>>>
>>> The San Francisco Chronicle now reports that conservative Christians
>>> represent the major energy behind the promotion of Proposition 8 in
>>> California.  The major media generally frame these Christians as out of
>>> step
>>> with the times.   As the paper reports:
>>>
>>> Christian conservatives have come to dominate the religious debate
>>> surrounding Prop. 8 - even though the Bible's statements on homosexuality
>>> are complex and disputed among Christians.
>>>
>>> Catholics, Mormons and evangelicals have been contributing millions of
>>> dollars and flying into the state from around the nation to lead rallies
>>> and
>>> services that preach support for the measure.
>>>
>>> The paper describes the Bible's statements on homosexuality as "complex
>>> and
>>> disputed."  Of course, this is only true in very recent years and within
>>> a
>>> very thin slice of liberal Christianity.  Most Christians throughout the
>>> history of the church -- and the vast majority of Christians alive
>>> today --
>>> have no problem understanding what the Bible teaches about homosexuality.
>>>
>>> Take a very close look at these paragraphs:
>>>
>>> Liberal groups representing Christians, Jews and others are trying to
>>> defeat
>>> the measure. But their efforts have been far more modest, even though
>>> priests and rabbis in the Bay Area have played a pivotal role in creating
>>> and cultivating a theology that includes lesbians and gays as equals to
>>> heterosexuals.
>>>
>>> Conservatives and liberals generally use dramatically different lenses to
>>> interpret the Bible. Christian conservatives tend to emphasize an
>>> interpretation of the Bible that doesn't change with the times. They say
>>> the
>>> Bible describes marriage as only between a man and a woman.
>>>
>>> "You've got the California Supreme Court rewriting sacred heritage," said
>>> Steve Madsen, pastor of Cornerstone Fellowship, an evangelical megachurch
>>>
>>> in
>>> Livermore.
>>>
>>> Liberal Christians tend to emphasize that divine revelation can come from
>>> many places, even outside the church. For example, many denominations
>>> don't
>>> allow same-sex marriages, while California law does.
>>>
>>> "Culture is going to manifest Christ in a way that summons the church to
>>> new
>>> realities," said Episcopal Bishop Marc Andrus.
>>>
>>> These statements are incredibly revealing.  First, note that the paper
>>> describes efforts to normalize homosexuality have included "creating and
>>> cultivating a theology" that would serve their purposes.  That is a very
>>> helpful (and accurate) explanation.  There is no way that the received
>>> tradition can be twisted into support for same-sex marriage.
>>>
>>> Second, observe the fact that the paper recognizes that those on opposing
>>> sides of this debate "use dramatically different lenses to interpret the
>>> Bible."  That is an understatement, but represents another helpful
>>> explanation.  The arguments put forth by proponents of same-sex marriage
>>> come down to assertions that the Bible does not say what it plainly does
>>> say, that Christians have misunderstood the critical passages until
>>> liberal
>>> scholars pushing this agenda have just discovered what the passages
>>> really
>>> mean, or that the Bible just has to be corrected in light of contemporary
>>> developments.
>>>
>>> Third, note that the reporter explains that conservatives "say the Bible
>>> describes marriage as only between a man and a woman."  Any honest reader
>>> must acknowledge that the Bible describes marriage in exclusively
>>> heterosexual terms.
>>>
>>> Fourth, on the other hand, note that liberals pushing for the
>>> normalization
>>> of homosexual behaviors and relationships are described as believing that
>>> "divine revelation can come from many places, even outside the church."
>>> Episcopal Bishop Marc Andrus is quoted as saying, "Culture is going to
>>> manifest Christ in a way that summons the church to new realities."  In
>>> other words, who needs the Bible when you can just accept some new
>>> cultural
>>> authority in its place?
>>>
>>> Proponents of same-sex marriage now attempt to argue that the only
>>> opposition to legalized homosexual marriage comes from conservative
>>> Christians pushing a narrow theological agenda.  They cannot possibly
>>> claim
>>> that conservative Christians control the vast majority of the world's
>>> nations in which same-sex marriage is decidedly not legal.
>>>
>>> Still, the fact that the San Francisco Chronicle felt the need to publish
>>>
>>> a
>>> chart of Bible passages on homosexuality tells us something.  The very
>>> existence of these passages still troubles the consciences of those
>>> pushing
>>> the normalization of homosexuality -- whether within or without the
>>> church.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> In addition to being one of Salem's nationally syndicated radio talk show
>>> hosts, R. Albert Mohler, Jr. is the president of The Southern Baptist
>>> Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky and recognized as one of
>>> America's leading theologians and cultural commentators. Contact Dr.
>>> Mohler
>>> at mail at albertmohler.com.
>>>
>>> Find this article at: http://www.crosswalk.com/news/commentary/11583138/
>>>
>>> Corey Cook
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>>
> Corey Cook
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>



From mentink at frontiernet.net  Mon Nov 10 14:15:55 2008
From: mentink at frontiernet.net (Linda Mentink)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 08:15:55 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Discussion
Message-ID: <20081110141553.3A2AE19820A@relay02.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>

OK, now I'm writing as both a list member and the moderator.

I woke up this morning before I usually get up for school, so I 
turned on the computer.  I wanted to get a couple things from there 
before I leave.

I have not had time to read the messages from this list, but was 
surprised to have so many come into my in box.  One was from Penny, 
who has left this list.  She didn't say why, but I know.  This 
discussion about homosexuality has gone on way too long, and is not 
accomplishing anything for the edification of the list members.  Beth 
will not be convinced because she is steadfast in her beliefs.  If 
she is to understand God's Word, she needs to sit down and read it in 
its entirety, and she will need the Holy Spirit to help her to 
understand some of it.  But that's neithere here nor there.  She is 
not open to such reading and accepting of God's Holy Scriptures, so 
we are casting our pearls before swine, as the Bible says.

She loves her friends, and that's as it should be.  There was 
recently a case in Virginia and Vermont where a Lesbyan couple 
separated.  One had a child through artificial insemination.  She 
accepted Christ, and wanted out.  She took her biological daughter 
with her, and moved to Virginia.  The other woman is trying to get 
full custody of the child.  I have left out a lot of the story 
because I don't have time to write it all.  I don't type fast 
enough!  Anyway, the child is now six, and is a Christian.  She went 
to visit this other woman, whom she hasn't seen in almost two years, 
forced by the courts.  This woman told her to call her Mommy, and 
said that she has two momies.  The child told her what God says about 
that, and she was told to forget all that.  This woman wants full 
custody of a child she didn't carry, and the whole thing is just 
sick.  There was a hearing at the end of October, but I didn't hear 
the results.  This makes me angry, and I'm sure there are more cases 
like it.  So, let's pray for those in this lifestyle, but don't 
condone the sin.  They won't listen to us unless they ask us about 
it, so let's not try to convince them of something they don't want to 
hear.  They are ungodly, and God has given them, and this nation, 
over to their and our lusts.

Please, people, let's move on!  Thanks.

Linda




From everettg at successfuladaptations.com  Mon Nov 10 14:17:20 2008
From: everettg at successfuladaptations.com (Everett Gavel)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 09:17:20 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Did Jesus Heal Homosexuals?
References: <35A03D458698454A84A02B53EB5728FC@Buster><0AE2D4A5152D4796862C6EFB2E88D3AE@nickf1758c2c9d><4383d01d0811091933w2fff5563r4b7dc4d58c5eb47c@mail.gmail.com><005d01c942ec$28333750$5c85fe04@rjige047kjawst><4383d01d0811092230p556cf25bk342c1ae7d2a0e47b@mail.gmail.com><9A311BBAB5BA41DEA003B08E23EAC3D0@Alan>
	<4383d01d0811100438u38051b45u8acd9f6e117fb710@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000b01c9433f$0cc53060$5b9ef44c@IBMB7D6F383D44>

Hello Beth, and all,

I've tried to stay out of this.  It does not help 
anyone learn, if they feel ganged-up on.  But with 
respect, Beth, I share one point in all this:

Jesus both lived and preached the word, God's truth, 
daily.  Did He "heal" sinners?  Not of their sin, no. 
And homosexuality - just as is lying, fornication, 
adultery, murder - are all sins.  What He did do was 
share God's Truth with them, and some it changed, yes. 
And others it drove away.  But God did not physically 
"heal" anyone of homosexuality, because it is a sin, 
not a disability that needs "healing."  It is not of 
the same ilk as leprosy, or some disease, or some 
physical disability.  It is sin, plain and simple. 
Just as is lying, adultery, murder, etc. The Holy 
Bible - God's inspired word (2 Tim 3:16 - "All 
scripture is God-breathed...") says this constantly, 
consistently, throughout the 66 books that comprise the 
Bible.

Jesus did not heal from sin.  He did, however, 
constantly warn against the consequences of it, for the 
unrepentant heart.

So, though many of us who try our best each day to live 
the way Jesus tells us to, often go about it poorly, it 
is our command, it is our life, to try to help others 
understand when and if they're purposely living in sin. 
We will be hated by some for speaking the truth--as was 
Jesus.  No matter, it is the task given all those who 
come to know and grasp the beauty that is Jesus Christ.

Though ultimately I leave it up to God of course, it 
seems "logical" to me that one cannot know Jesus truly, 
and continue living in daily sin.  Though one may make 
poor choices and fall back to their old ways at times, 
to do so willingly and continuously is not living for 
Jesus Christ.  And though many call themselves 
Christians while sinning, willingly, on a continuing 
basis, Jesus said that many will call Him, "Lord, 
Lord," but on the day of Judgement, He will say He 
never knew them.  To be a Christian is to follow 
Christ.  To follow Christ means to pay attention to 
what He actually says in His word, the Holy Bible. And 
the Bible says not to give in to the urges or 
temptation of homosexuality, as it is a sin.

Anyway, in summary, no, Jesus did not heal homosexuals 
of their homosexuality.  It is not a disability or 
disease that needs physical healing.  It is a sin, as 
are several other things that Jesus warns against 
numerous times in His word, the Bible.


Strive On--for the Truth,
And for the Truth--We Need to Read Scripture Ourselves 
Instead of Listening to Others,
Everett
www.biblegateway.com (Hint, Hint)  ;-)



----- Original Message ----- 
> Okay.  So Jesus loved and healed people with 
> disabilities, but why
> didn't he heal the homosexuals?  The Bible was 
> written in ancient
> times.  We have to take the Bible seriously here. 
> Jesus never seems
> to have healed homosexuals.
>





From ccook01 at knology.net  Mon Nov 10 14:32:59 2008
From: ccook01 at knology.net (Corey Cook)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 09:32:59 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] article3
In-Reply-To: <4383d01d0811092233m4af5ab95sf71ed04b3fc45619@mail.gmail.com>
References: <FA1BA1E983C54480AE9F643BB19848D6@TheCooksPC>
	<4383d01d0811092233m4af5ab95sf71ed04b3fc45619@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1F49C863A1FC40AB9CABCEE62FC03CB8@TheCooksPC>

Nothing is wrong with him.
He is showing the truth
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 1:33 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] article3


> How dramatifc.  We can still use those dead words--husband, wife,
> boyfriend, girlfriend--but we can add new ones.  What's wrong wit the
> man here?
> Beth
>
> On 11/9/08, Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net> wrote:
>> What's Really at Stake in the Gay Marriage Debate? Part 3
>> Albert Mohler
>> President, Southern Bapist Theological Seminary
>>
>> October 24, 2008
>>
>> "We're talking about really refraining from using things like, 
>> husband-wife,
>> boyfriend-girlfriend, those kind of things, and just say 'partner,'"
>> explains Robin Sinks.  She is the health education specialist for the 
>> Long
>> Beach Unified School District in California.  The point she was making is
>> clear enough.  The legalization of same-sex marriage will require a
>> comprehensive change in our language.
>>
>> Language is, as we now know, integral to a culture.  In fact,
>> anthropologists such as the influential Clifford Geertz refer to human
>> culture as a "cultural-lingustic system."  The language and the culture 
>> are
>> inseparable.  Each influences the other, and together they produce an 
>> entire
>> system of meaning.
>>
>> Until now, at least, words like "husband" and "wife" have been essential 
>> to
>> understanding our culture.  Some words have been inseparable, forming
>> comprehensive sets of meaning together.  "Marriage" goes with "husband" 
>> and
>> "wife."  "Boyfriend" goes with "girlfriend."
>>
>> With the legalization of same-sex marriage, the only acceptable word is
>> "partner."  Marriage licenses will speak of the union of "Partner A" with
>> "Partner B."  There will be no use for terms such as "wife" or "husband."
>>
>> Robin Sinks made her statement with reference to what the normalization 
>> of
>> same-sex marriage would mean for the public schools.  As MSNBC reports, 
>> the
>> battle over same-sex marriage will reach the schools.
>>
>> "The opposing sides have debated what, if anything, schools must teach 
>> about
>> marriage now that gays have the right to wed," the network explains.
>>
>> California mandates that schools teach about marriage, if the schools 
>> teach
>> sex education.  Surprisingly perhaps, the vast majority of California 
>> school
>> districts do not teach sex education.  Nevertheless, one state judge
>> recently ruled that the districts "may require" such courses.
>>
>> California is "ground zero" on this issue because the state's voters will
>> face "Proposition 8" on the November 4 ballot.  This proposition, if
>> approved by voters, would amend the California constitution to limit
>> marriage to the union of a man and a woman.  The measure is an effort to
>> reverse last May's decision by the California Supreme Court to legalize
>> same-sex marriage.
>>
>> Given the state's huge population and cultural influence, all eyes are 
>> now
>> on California.  But so should be our ears.  Do we hear a shift in the
>> language coming?  If so, the language will change far more than 
>> vocabulary
>> and word usage.
>>
>> Civilizations are built on careful and necessary distinctions.  As an
>> institution, marriage has been defined throughout history as a 
>> heterosexual
>> union.  Marriage is so central to our civilization that its related words
>> have become equally essential.  Words like "husband" and "wife" have been
>> necessary to understanding our stories, our laws, our families, our 
>> social
>> arrangements, and our aspirations.  Transform marriage into a homosexual
>> institution, and the vocabulary no longer works.
>>
>> The effects of this linguistic transformation are most acute among the
>> young.  Language acquisition is among the most essential tasks of 
>> childhood
>> -- and this includes everything from early babbling to vocabulary lists 
>> at
>> school.
>>
>> When children acquire a language without the words "husband" or "wife," 
>> they
>> acquire a cultural knowledge that betrays the subversion of the central
>> institution of civilization itself.  "Partner" is just not enough to 
>> carry
>> the meaning of marriage.  Will "husband" and "wife" soon be relegated to 
>> the
>> dust-bin of obsolete words?  If so, the loss will leave us speechless.
>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> In addition to being one of Salem's nationally syndicated radio talk show
>> hosts, R. Albert Mohler, Jr. is the president of The Southern Baptist
>> Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky and recognized as one of
>> America's leading theologians and cultural commentators. Contact Dr. 
>> Mohler
>> at mail at albertmohler.com.
>>
>> Find this article at: http://www.crosswalk.com/news/commentary/11583380/
>>
>> Corey Cook
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
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>
Corey Cook 




From ccook01 at knology.net  Mon Nov 10 14:37:37 2008
From: ccook01 at knology.net (Corey Cook)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 09:37:37 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] new school prayer
In-Reply-To: <4383d01d0811092216q59181091yc699696d88694561@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4383d01d0811092216q59181091yc699696d88694561@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3976623164E544E0AD2BE11F4214421D@TheCooksPC>

Interesting.
Goes back to how we as a nation have turned against God.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 1:16 AM
Subject: [Faith-talk] new school prayer


> Take a look at this, guys.  My close friend sent me this one.
>
>> >> A kid in Arizona wrote the attached
>> >>
>> >> NEW School prayer :
>> >>
>> >> Now I sit me down in school
>> >> Where praying is against the rule
>> >> For this great nation under God
>> >> Finds mention of Him very odd.
>> >> If Scripture now the class recites,
>> >> It violates the Bill of Rights.
>> >> And anytime my head I bow
>> >> Becomes a Federal matter now.
>> >> Our hair can be purple, orange or green,
>> >> That's no offense; it's a freedom scene.
>> >> The law is specific, the law is precise.
>> >> Prayers spoken aloud are a serious vice.
>> >> For praying in a public hall
>> >> Might offend someone with no faith at all.
>> >> In silence alone we must meditate,
>> >> God's name is prohibited by the state.
>> >> We're allowed to cuss and dress like freaks,
>> >> And pierce our noses, tongues and cheeks..
>> >> They've outlawed guns, but FIRST the Bible.
>> >> To quote the Good Book makes me liable.
>> >> We can elect a pregnant Senior Queen,
>> >> And the 'unwed daddy,' our Senior King.
>> >> It's 'inappropriate' to teach right from wrong,
>> >> We're taught that such 'judgments' do not belong.
>> >> We can get our condoms and birth controls,
>> >> Study witchcraft, vampires and totem poles.
>> >> But the Ten Commandments are not allowed,
>> >> No word of God must reach this crowd.
>> >> It's scary here I must confess,
>> >> When chaos reigns the school's a mess.
>> >> So, Lord, this silent plea I make:
>> >> Should I be shot; My soul please take!
>> >> Amen
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
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>
Corey Cook 




From ccook01 at knology.net  Mon Nov 10 14:54:03 2008
From: ccook01 at knology.net (Corey Cook)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 09:54:03 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] new school prayer
In-Reply-To: <4383d01d0811100433o676b3facl8a7e7ba93c831672@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4383d01d0811092216q59181091yc699696d88694561@mail.gmail.com><A8379C6B9A784BA999CEF838A0A8F5D4@Alan>
	<4383d01d0811100433o676b3facl8a7e7ba93c831672@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C7078AF8B189418B81EC7E646CB9CCC8@TheCooksPC>

The constitution does not say we cannot pray in school.
Long history lesson coming,
but I need to get ready for work, so will take this up when I get hom.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 7:33 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] new school prayer


> You think it's ironic?  Wow, Allan.  I thought this would be cool to
> post.  I don't believe in a lot of things: teen pregnancy, guns
> inschools, and, come to think of it, keeping God out of the pledge.
> But why should we not pray in school?  There's a reason why our
> Constitution says we can't pray in school though the words aren't
> written there.  The first clause of it, according to my roommate, who
> works at an Anglican church, says we cannot force religion on the
> people of America.  I don't think we can stop teens from being teens,
> but I don't think we should encourage them to be pregnant senior
> queens in the case of girls.  I believe we should empower young women
> through school and so on.  If a young girl gets raped, she should have
> access to the morning-after as an emergency, not as a way to abort a
> potential life.  And, of course, to catch the rapist, we should use
> DNA evidence.  There's a lot in that poem that I have to analyze.
> Beth
>
> On 11/10/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>> It is so ironic you would post this.  It talks about keeping God out of
>> school and you won't even surrender in obedience to what God says about
>> homosexuality?  Very very ironic.
>>
>>
>> +-+-+-
>>
>>    There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither 
>> is
>> there any rock like our God.
>>  1 Samuel 2:2
>> ~~~
>>
>> Alan D Wheeler
>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>> Skype: redwheel1
>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>> www.theqonline.net
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 12:16 AM
>> Subject: [Faith-talk] new school prayer
>>
>>
>>> Take a look at this, guys.  My close friend sent me this one.
>>>
>>>> >> A kid in Arizona wrote the attached
>>>> >>
>>>> >> NEW School prayer :
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Now I sit me down in school
>>>> >> Where praying is against the rule
>>>> >> For this great nation under God
>>>> >> Finds mention of Him very odd.
>>>> >> If Scripture now the class recites,
>>>> >> It violates the Bill of Rights.
>>>> >> And anytime my head I bow
>>>> >> Becomes a Federal matter now.
>>>> >> Our hair can be purple, orange or green,
>>>> >> That's no offense; it's a freedom scene.
>>>> >> The law is specific, the law is precise.
>>>> >> Prayers spoken aloud are a serious vice.
>>>> >> For praying in a public hall
>>>> >> Might offend someone with no faith at all.
>>>> >> In silence alone we must meditate,
>>>> >> God's name is prohibited by the state.
>>>> >> We're allowed to cuss and dress like freaks,
>>>> >> And pierce our noses, tongues and cheeks..
>>>> >> They've outlawed guns, but FIRST the Bible.
>>>> >> To quote the Good Book makes me liable.
>>>> >> We can elect a pregnant Senior Queen,
>>>> >> And the 'unwed daddy,' our Senior King.
>>>> >> It's 'inappropriate' to teach right from wrong,
>>>> >> We're taught that such 'judgments' do not belong.
>>>> >> We can get our condoms and birth controls,
>>>> >> Study witchcraft, vampires and totem poles.
>>>> >> But the Ten Commandments are not allowed,
>>>> >> No word of God must reach this crowd.
>>>> >> It's scary here I must confess,
>>>> >> When chaos reigns the school's a mess.
>>>> >> So, Lord, this silent plea I make:
>>>> >> Should I be shot; My soul please take!
>>>> >> Amen
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1778 - Release Date: 11/9/2008
>> 2:14 PM
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
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>
Corey Cook 




From ccook01 at knology.net  Mon Nov 10 14:55:09 2008
From: ccook01 at knology.net (Corey Cook)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 09:55:09 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] article 1
In-Reply-To: <4383d01d0811100440q885d98dw297c6982352324a0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5F3A84795F784BB39F938F35FB1FD13B@TheCooksPC><540AD6D7A71946E7A883D27649F2C41F@nickf1758c2c9d><4383d01d0811092239n65ce4819jbbe399d2bc8f7b2e@mail.gmail.com><CD639009D761447DA40E589DE43FF10B@Alan>
	<4383d01d0811100440q885d98dw297c6982352324a0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A89BDBB9A3B147B1BD9619A2BD57E268@TheCooksPC>

Beth for resources on helping gays see the focus on the family website.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 7:40 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] article 1


> How can I explain this to my two friends that their homosexual
> feelings and attractions is a sin?  How can I possibly help them
> "heal" (notice thatI put it in quotes) from sexuality to the same sex?
> Beth
>
> On 11/10/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>> Then you've obviously turned your heart from God.  I am sorry if that 
>> sounds
>> harsh, but if you cannot accept that God declares homosexuality as wrong,
>> you are turning your back on what God has to say.
>>
>>
>> +-+-+-
>>
>>    There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither 
>> is
>> there any rock like our God.
>>  1 Samuel 2:2
>> ~~~
>>
>> Alan D Wheeler
>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>> Skype: redwheel1
>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>> www.theqonline.net
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 12:39 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] article 1
>>
>>
>>> Forget it.  California already did this, and so did Florida on
>>> Proposition 2.  I'm done here.  This guy is speaking a bunch of tosh
>>> here.  Marriage is no longer just a breeding thing.  It's love as
>>> well.  I mean, if I were eighty years old and couldn't have kids,
>>> could I still marry?  Yes.  I can't breed, but I could still marry.
>>> Now, marriage then is not about breeding.  I don't see why his
>>> argument had to go overboard.  Gay marriage to me is a civil rights
>>> issue as much as it is for me a civil rights issue that we blind
>>> people get to vote on things like what was passed in California and
>>> Florida.
>>> Beth
>>>
>>> On 11/9/08, trising at sbcglobal.net <trising at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>> Great article!
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1778 - Release Date: 11/9/2008
>> 2:14 PM
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
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>
Corey Cook 




From ccook01 at knology.net  Mon Nov 10 14:56:08 2008
From: ccook01 at knology.net (Corey Cook)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 09:56:08 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Did Jesus Heal Homosexuals?
In-Reply-To: <000b01c9433f$0cc53060$5b9ef44c@IBMB7D6F383D44>
References: <35A03D458698454A84A02B53EB5728FC@Buster><0AE2D4A5152D4796862C6EFB2E88D3AE@nickf1758c2c9d><4383d01d0811091933w2fff5563r4b7dc4d58c5eb47c@mail.gmail.com><005d01c942ec$28333750$5c85fe04@rjige047kjawst><4383d01d0811092230p556cf25bk342c1ae7d2a0e47b@mail.gmail.com><9A311BBAB5BA41DEA003B08E23EAC3D0@Alan><4383d01d0811100438u38051b45u8acd9f6e117fb710@mail.gmail.com>
	<000b01c9433f$0cc53060$5b9ef44c@IBMB7D6F383D44>
Message-ID: <31E1C26B242D47AC9B6DAE739ACBF71A@TheCooksPC>

Well said
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Everett Gavel" <everettg at successfuladaptations.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 9:17 AM
Subject: [Faith-talk] Did Jesus Heal Homosexuals?


> Hello Beth, and all,
>
> I've tried to stay out of this.  It does not help anyone learn, if they 
> feel ganged-up on.  But with respect, Beth, I share one point in all this:
>
> Jesus both lived and preached the word, God's truth, daily.  Did He "heal" 
> sinners?  Not of their sin, no. And homosexuality - just as is lying, 
> fornication, adultery, murder - are all sins.  What He did do was share 
> God's Truth with them, and some it changed, yes. And others it drove away. 
> But God did not physically "heal" anyone of homosexuality, because it is a 
> sin, not a disability that needs "healing."  It is not of the same ilk as 
> leprosy, or some disease, or some physical disability.  It is sin, plain 
> and simple. Just as is lying, adultery, murder, etc. The Holy Bible - 
> God's inspired word (2 Tim 3:16 - "All scripture is God-breathed...") says 
> this constantly, consistently, throughout the 66 books that comprise the 
> Bible.
>
> Jesus did not heal from sin.  He did, however, constantly warn against the 
> consequences of it, for the unrepentant heart.
>
> So, though many of us who try our best each day to live the way Jesus 
> tells us to, often go about it poorly, it is our command, it is our life, 
> to try to help others understand when and if they're purposely living in 
> sin. We will be hated by some for speaking the truth--as was Jesus.  No 
> matter, it is the task given all those who come to know and grasp the 
> beauty that is Jesus Christ.
>
> Though ultimately I leave it up to God of course, it seems "logical" to me 
> that one cannot know Jesus truly, and continue living in daily sin. 
> Though one may make poor choices and fall back to their old ways at times, 
> to do so willingly and continuously is not living for Jesus Christ.  And 
> though many call themselves Christians while sinning, willingly, on a 
> continuing basis, Jesus said that many will call Him, "Lord, Lord," but on 
> the day of Judgement, He will say He never knew them.  To be a Christian 
> is to follow Christ.  To follow Christ means to pay attention to what He 
> actually says in His word, the Holy Bible. And the Bible says not to give 
> in to the urges or temptation of homosexuality, as it is a sin.
>
> Anyway, in summary, no, Jesus did not heal homosexuals of their 
> homosexuality.  It is not a disability or disease that needs physical 
> healing.  It is a sin, as are several other things that Jesus warns 
> against numerous times in His word, the Bible.
>
>
> Strive On--for the Truth,
> And for the Truth--We Need to Read Scripture Ourselves Instead of 
> Listening to Others,
> Everett
> www.biblegateway.com (Hint, Hint)  ;-)
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> Okay.  So Jesus loved and healed people with disabilities, but why
>> didn't he heal the homosexuals?  The Bible was written in ancient
>> times.  We have to take the Bible seriously here. Jesus never seems
>> to have healed homosexuals.
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>
Corey Cook 




From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Mon Nov 10 15:07:24 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 10:07:24 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Did Jesus Heal Homosexuals?
In-Reply-To: <000b01c9433f$0cc53060$5b9ef44c@IBMB7D6F383D44>
References: <35A03D458698454A84A02B53EB5728FC@Buster>
	<0AE2D4A5152D4796862C6EFB2E88D3AE@nickf1758c2c9d>
	<4383d01d0811091933w2fff5563r4b7dc4d58c5eb47c@mail.gmail.com>
	<005d01c942ec$28333750$5c85fe04@rjige047kjawst>
	<4383d01d0811092230p556cf25bk342c1ae7d2a0e47b@mail.gmail.com>
	<9A311BBAB5BA41DEA003B08E23EAC3D0@Alan>
	<4383d01d0811100438u38051b45u8acd9f6e117fb710@mail.gmail.com>
	<000b01c9433f$0cc53060$5b9ef44c@IBMB7D6F383D44>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811100707l2fc337c0kcee32061db492c2e@mail.gmail.com>

Okay, Everet.  That what you said is true.  But let me point out aht
homosexuals and people with AIDS are being persecuted daily for their
"sin" and their disease.  People with AIDS, homosexual or not, need
healing and prayers.
Beth

On 11/10/08, Everett Gavel <everettg at successfuladaptations.com> wrote:
> Hello Beth, and all,
>
> I've tried to stay out of this.  It does not help
> anyone learn, if they feel ganged-up on.  But with
> respect, Beth, I share one point in all this:
>
> Jesus both lived and preached the word, God's truth,
> daily.  Did He "heal" sinners?  Not of their sin, no.
> And homosexuality - just as is lying, fornication,
> adultery, murder - are all sins.  What He did do was
> share God's Truth with them, and some it changed, yes.
> And others it drove away.  But God did not physically
> "heal" anyone of homosexuality, because it is a sin,
> not a disability that needs "healing."  It is not of
> the same ilk as leprosy, or some disease, or some
> physical disability.  It is sin, plain and simple.
> Just as is lying, adultery, murder, etc. The Holy
> Bible - God's inspired word (2 Tim 3:16 - "All
> scripture is God-breathed...") says this constantly,
> consistently, throughout the 66 books that comprise the
> Bible.
>
> Jesus did not heal from sin.  He did, however,
> constantly warn against the consequences of it, for the
> unrepentant heart.
>
> So, though many of us who try our best each day to live
> the way Jesus tells us to, often go about it poorly, it
> is our command, it is our life, to try to help others
> understand when and if they're purposely living in sin.
> We will be hated by some for speaking the truth--as was
> Jesus.  No matter, it is the task given all those who
> come to know and grasp the beauty that is Jesus Christ.
>
> Though ultimately I leave it up to God of course, it
> seems "logical" to me that one cannot know Jesus truly,
> and continue living in daily sin.  Though one may make
> poor choices and fall back to their old ways at times,
> to do so willingly and continuously is not living for
> Jesus Christ.  And though many call themselves
> Christians while sinning, willingly, on a continuing
> basis, Jesus said that many will call Him, "Lord,
> Lord," but on the day of Judgement, He will say He
> never knew them.  To be a Christian is to follow
> Christ.  To follow Christ means to pay attention to
> what He actually says in His word, the Holy Bible. And
> the Bible says not to give in to the urges or
> temptation of homosexuality, as it is a sin.
>
> Anyway, in summary, no, Jesus did not heal homosexuals
> of their homosexuality.  It is not a disability or
> disease that needs physical healing.  It is a sin, as
> are several other things that Jesus warns against
> numerous times in His word, the Bible.
>
>
> Strive On--for the Truth,
> And for the Truth--We Need to Read Scripture Ourselves
> Instead of Listening to Others,
> Everett
> www.biblegateway.com (Hint, Hint)  ;-)
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>> Okay.  So Jesus loved and healed people with
>> disabilities, but why
>> didn't he heal the homosexuals?  The Bible was
>> written in ancient
>> times.  We have to take the Bible seriously here.
>> Jesus never seems
>> to have healed homosexuals.
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>



From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Mon Nov 10 15:08:17 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 10:08:17 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] article 1
In-Reply-To: <A89BDBB9A3B147B1BD9619A2BD57E268@TheCooksPC>
References: <5F3A84795F784BB39F938F35FB1FD13B@TheCooksPC>
	<540AD6D7A71946E7A883D27649F2C41F@nickf1758c2c9d>
	<4383d01d0811092239n65ce4819jbbe399d2bc8f7b2e@mail.gmail.com>
	<CD639009D761447DA40E589DE43FF10B@Alan>
	<4383d01d0811100440q885d98dw297c6982352324a0@mail.gmail.com>
	<A89BDBB9A3B147B1BD9619A2BD57E268@TheCooksPC>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811100708k14f909d3q682fdd77108dff94@mail.gmail.com>

No problem.
Beth

On 11/10/08, Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net> wrote:
> Beth for resources on helping gays see the focus on the family website.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 7:40 AM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] article 1
>
>
>> How can I explain this to my two friends that their homosexual
>> feelings and attractions is a sin?  How can I possibly help them
>> "heal" (notice thatI put it in quotes) from sexuality to the same sex?
>> Beth
>>
>> On 11/10/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>> Then you've obviously turned your heart from God.  I am sorry if that
>>> sounds
>>> harsh, but if you cannot accept that God declares homosexuality as wrong,
>>> you are turning your back on what God has to say.
>>>
>>>
>>> +-+-+-
>>>
>>>    There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither
>>>
>>> is
>>> there any rock like our God.
>>>  1 Samuel 2:2
>>> ~~~
>>>
>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>> www.theqonline.net
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 12:39 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] article 1
>>>
>>>
>>>> Forget it.  California already did this, and so did Florida on
>>>> Proposition 2.  I'm done here.  This guy is speaking a bunch of tosh
>>>> here.  Marriage is no longer just a breeding thing.  It's love as
>>>> well.  I mean, if I were eighty years old and couldn't have kids,
>>>> could I still marry?  Yes.  I can't breed, but I could still marry.
>>>> Now, marriage then is not about breeding.  I don't see why his
>>>> argument had to go overboard.  Gay marriage to me is a civil rights
>>>> issue as much as it is for me a civil rights issue that we blind
>>>> people get to vote on things like what was passed in California and
>>>> Florida.
>>>> Beth
>>>>
>>>> On 11/9/08, trising at sbcglobal.net <trising at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>> Great article!
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1778 - Release Date: 11/9/2008
>>> 2:14 PM
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>>
> Corey Cook
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>



From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Mon Nov 10 15:15:02 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 10:15:02 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] new school prayer
In-Reply-To: <C7078AF8B189418B81EC7E646CB9CCC8@TheCooksPC>
References: <4383d01d0811092216q59181091yc699696d88694561@mail.gmail.com>
	<A8379C6B9A784BA999CEF838A0A8F5D4@Alan>
	<4383d01d0811100433o676b3facl8a7e7ba93c831672@mail.gmail.com>
	<C7078AF8B189418B81EC7E646CB9CCC8@TheCooksPC>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811100715v2db2814dlfdf32a765458ceb2@mail.gmail.com>

Can't wait.
Beth

On 11/10/08, Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net> wrote:
> The constitution does not say we cannot pray in school.
> Long history lesson coming,
> but I need to get ready for work, so will take this up when I get hom.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 7:33 AM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] new school prayer
>
>
>> You think it's ironic?  Wow, Allan.  I thought this would be cool to
>> post.  I don't believe in a lot of things: teen pregnancy, guns
>> inschools, and, come to think of it, keeping God out of the pledge.
>> But why should we not pray in school?  There's a reason why our
>> Constitution says we can't pray in school though the words aren't
>> written there.  The first clause of it, according to my roommate, who
>> works at an Anglican church, says we cannot force religion on the
>> people of America.  I don't think we can stop teens from being teens,
>> but I don't think we should encourage them to be pregnant senior
>> queens in the case of girls.  I believe we should empower young women
>> through school and so on.  If a young girl gets raped, she should have
>> access to the morning-after as an emergency, not as a way to abort a
>> potential life.  And, of course, to catch the rapist, we should use
>> DNA evidence.  There's a lot in that poem that I have to analyze.
>> Beth
>>
>> On 11/10/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>> It is so ironic you would post this.  It talks about keeping God out of
>>> school and you won't even surrender in obedience to what God says about
>>> homosexuality?  Very very ironic.
>>>
>>>
>>> +-+-+-
>>>
>>>    There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither
>>>
>>> is
>>> there any rock like our God.
>>>  1 Samuel 2:2
>>> ~~~
>>>
>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>> www.theqonline.net
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 12:16 AM
>>> Subject: [Faith-talk] new school prayer
>>>
>>>
>>>> Take a look at this, guys.  My close friend sent me this one.
>>>>
>>>>> >> A kid in Arizona wrote the attached
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> NEW School prayer :
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Now I sit me down in school
>>>>> >> Where praying is against the rule
>>>>> >> For this great nation under God
>>>>> >> Finds mention of Him very odd.
>>>>> >> If Scripture now the class recites,
>>>>> >> It violates the Bill of Rights.
>>>>> >> And anytime my head I bow
>>>>> >> Becomes a Federal matter now.
>>>>> >> Our hair can be purple, orange or green,
>>>>> >> That's no offense; it's a freedom scene.
>>>>> >> The law is specific, the law is precise.
>>>>> >> Prayers spoken aloud are a serious vice.
>>>>> >> For praying in a public hall
>>>>> >> Might offend someone with no faith at all.
>>>>> >> In silence alone we must meditate,
>>>>> >> God's name is prohibited by the state.
>>>>> >> We're allowed to cuss and dress like freaks,
>>>>> >> And pierce our noses, tongues and cheeks..
>>>>> >> They've outlawed guns, but FIRST the Bible.
>>>>> >> To quote the Good Book makes me liable.
>>>>> >> We can elect a pregnant Senior Queen,
>>>>> >> And the 'unwed daddy,' our Senior King.
>>>>> >> It's 'inappropriate' to teach right from wrong,
>>>>> >> We're taught that such 'judgments' do not belong.
>>>>> >> We can get our condoms and birth controls,
>>>>> >> Study witchcraft, vampires and totem poles.
>>>>> >> But the Ten Commandments are not allowed,
>>>>> >> No word of God must reach this crowd.
>>>>> >> It's scary here I must confess,
>>>>> >> When chaos reigns the school's a mess.
>>>>> >> So, Lord, this silent plea I make:
>>>>> >> Should I be shot; My soul please take!
>>>>> >> Amen
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1778 - Release Date: 11/9/2008
>>> 2:14 PM
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>>
> Corey Cook
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>



From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Mon Nov 10 15:15:41 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 09:15:41 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] More about homosexuality.
References: <45DA65A746C4427D84681755CC35CB99@Alan><4383d01d0811091253x2afd9cffu8fc0dcd74995a54d@mail.gmail.com><31C23822BE7246E2A07426880ABA96D4@lynnwhitePC><63A3EFD1C0EF4E9787C2EFA87034453E@TheCooksPC><6776FAA89EFF4D258D27EBD02570A75A@Alan>
	<4383d01d0811100448u306e751ra0f68ebb04c822a7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E2DCBBDDD6BC4F6691C466D6364F050E@Alan>

Because homosexuality is a choice.  God isn't going to heal someone of something they *CHOOSE* to do.  The idea that homosexuals are wired that way is simply wrong.  If you don't believe me, do a google search for a ministry called Exodus International.  They are a ministry that is comprised, at least in part, of people who came out of the homosexual lifestyle and they do admit it was a choice to go into that lifestyle to begin with.


+-+-+-

   There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. 
 1 Samuel 2:2
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 6:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] More about homosexuality.


> That's weird.  I know that St. Paul preaches against group sex and
> other kinds of weird forms of sex acts, but Jesus not hanging out with
> or healing homosexuals is just odd.  If homosexuality is seen as a sin
> in the Bible, why isn't it clearly stated that it can be healed?  Both
> Protestants and Conservative Catholics feel this way, but I don't
> think that the homosexual attractions my friends experiece can be
> healed.
> Beth
> 
> On 11/10/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>> Yes, and that by grace we are saved.  God's grace is truly amazing, isn't
>> it?
>>
>>
>> +-+-+-
>>
>>    There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is
>> there any rock like our God.
>>  1 Samuel 2:2
>> ~~~
>>
>> Alan D Wheeler
>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>> Skype: redwheel1
>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>> www.theqonline.net
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Corey Cook" <ccook01 at knology.net>
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:51 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] More about homosexuality.
>>
>>
>>> The great part is Paul says that that was what we were before we were
>>> forgiven.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "BMW" <lynnwhite51 at sbcglobal.net>
>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:21 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] More about homosexuality.
>>>
>>>
>>>> well, Beth, your view goes against the old and new Testament.  Nobody is
>>>> being a bigot or anything like that.
>>>>
>>>> What do you do with the verses that speak against adultery, drunkardness,
>>>>
>>>> slanderers, fornicators?  Paul says that all of have fit into one of
>>>> these
>>>> categories before we were forgiven.
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 2:53 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] More about homosexuality.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Allan, this article is severely biased and is hurtful to homosexual
>>>>> friends of mine.  Thank God they didn't read this.  To be honest, I
>>>>> love my friends, all my friends heterosexual and homosexual.  Every
>>>>> kid has the right to two loving parents, but not necessarily a mom and
>>>>> a dad.  Gay couples and lesbian couples are still adoptable couples.
>>>>> I've seen a lesbian couple that adopted two Cree First Nations
>>>>> children.  I saw a gay couple adopt special needs twins who had
>>>>> addiction problems.  This country needs to be more progressive and
>>>>> stop attacking homosexuals because they are homosexuals.  Before you
>>>>> know it, Allan, this country will put blind and visually impaired
>>>>> people as well as cognitively disabled people in their places: along
>>>>> with the homosexuals, below sighted and heterosexual people.  Before
>>>>> you know it, Allan, African Americans will be kicked out of office and
>>>>> there will be an assassination attempt on Barack Obama, who I hope
>>>>> will reign for eight long and healthy years.  Please watch what you're
>>>>> saying!  We're all Christians on this list!  Can't we accept others'
>>>>> beliefs and opinions here?  I'm not trying to be psychic and prophetic
>>>>> here, but please understand that I am very concerned that this nation
>>>>> is going to fall down like Rome did and we won't have a very healthy
>>>>> end if you know what I mean.  And not everybody believes in God.  And
>>>>> God loves everybody, and even though it is written that homosexuality
>>>>> is a sin, attacking homosexuals who are not atracted and refuse to be
>>>>> attracted to the opposite sex is wrong.  We cannot an will not attack
>>>>> others because they are a different brand of homo sapiens sapiens.
>>>>> Beth
>>>>>
>>>>> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>>> I went to www.biblegateway.com to see what I could find about
>>>>>> homosexuality
>>>>>> and the bible.  This was among the resources.  So, again I say, and
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> my last comment on the subject, if you disagree that marriage is only
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> men and women, then your argument is with God.  It's in His book.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.faithfacts.org/christ-and-the-culture/gay-rights#marriage
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Sanctity of Marriage
>>>>>> In recent years, the homosexual movement has centered on giving
>>>>>> marriage-like benefits to gay couples. Many in the culture have
>>>>>> mistakenly
>>>>>> concluded that marriage is merely an institution for the convenience of
>>>>>> adults. In actuality, marriage is the bedrock institution for culture
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> sustain itself through having and nurturing children. There are
>>>>>> complementary aspects to a man and woman that are important to the
>>>>>> instutution of marriage which go beyond the obvious physical
>>>>>> attributes.
>>>>>> There are things that a man needs that can only be provided by a woman,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> vice versa.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> These complementary aspects are important to the relationship of the
>>>>>> couple
>>>>>> itself, as well as to the children. One does not have to appeal to
>>>>>> religion
>>>>>> to instinctively understand this. Yet statistics verify the structure
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> traditional family as the approach to raising children that gives the
>>>>>> best
>>>>>> measurable results. The overwhelming body of social science research
>>>>>> agrees
>>>>>> that children do best when raised in homes with married, opposite-sex
>>>>>> parents. Every child has the right to both a mom and a dad.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yet we cannot divorce the institution of marriage from its theological
>>>>>> roots. We acknowledge that marriage is an institution given by God
>>>>>> (Genesis
>>>>>> 2:24). The Creator of the Universe established the relationship between
>>>>>>
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> man and a woman, thus it is a divine institution, not a human one. To
>>>>>> confer
>>>>>> marriage-like rights to gays is not the prerogative of people (Matthew
>>>>>> 19:6). (This includes civil unions or domestic partnerships, as they
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> merely marriage by other names.) Defining marriage is the prerogative
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> God. Whatever may tend to undermine the institution of marriage would
>>>>>> also
>>>>>> undermine the authority of God, as well as hurt society.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Liberals may argue, "Why should we arbitrarily select only heterosexual
>>>>>> couples for marriage? What can it hurt if two homosexuals want to
>>>>>> marry?"
>>>>>> The answer is surprisingly simple. The institution of marriage between
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> man a woman is not, in fact, arbitrary. It's purpose is clear and of
>>>>>> utmost
>>>>>> importance to society.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> David Orland in an article entitled "The Deceit of Gay Marriage" puts
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> very well. He says:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   To justify giving privileges or exemptions or subsidies to some
>>>>>> particular
>>>>>> group in society, the benefit of doing so for society at large must
>>>>>> first be
>>>>>> shown. With heterosexual marriage, the case is clear enough.
>>>>>> Heterosexual
>>>>>> marriage is a matter of genuine social interest because the family is
>>>>>> essential to society's reproduction. The crux of my argument, in other
>>>>>> words, was that married couples receive the benefits they do, not
>>>>>> because
>>>>>> the state is interested in promoting romantic love, or because the
>>>>>> Bible
>>>>>> says so or because of the influence of special interest groups but
>>>>>> rather
>>>>>> because the next generation is something that is and should be of
>>>>>> interest
>>>>>> to all of us. And, by definition, this is not a case that can be made
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> homosexual unions. To that degree, the attempt to turn the question of
>>>>>> domestic partnership into a debate about fairness falls flat.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   The more persistent supporters of domestic partnership will of course
>>>>>> respond to this argument by pointing to the case in which homosexual
>>>>>> partners adopt children or, in the case of lesbians, undergo artificial
>>>>>> insemination. The intention here is to show that the nuclear family is
>>>>>> found
>>>>>> even among homosexual couples and that, to that extent, homosexual
>>>>>> unions do
>>>>>> indeed meet the same criterion of social interest as heterosexual ones
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> thus should be granted legal status. It is a weak argument and one that
>>>>>> ultimately back-fires on those who employ it. This is for two reasons:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   First, adoption by homosexual couples is still exceedingly rare and
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> law-though many are surprised to learn this-is aimed at the general
>>>>>> case. To
>>>>>> confer legal benefits on the entire class of would-be homosexual
>>>>>> spouses
>>>>>> just because some very small minority of this class approximates the
>>>>>> pattern
>>>>>> of the nuclear family would be a bit like admitting all applicants to a
>>>>>> select university on the grounds that a few of them had been shown to
>>>>>> meet
>>>>>> the entrance requirements.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   Second, the right of this small minority to the benefits of marriage
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> dubious in the extreme. Homosexual "families" of whatever type are
>>>>>> always
>>>>>> and necessarily parasitic on heterosexual ones.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Every child has the right to a mom and a dad. See 5 Reasons Why
>>>>>> Same-Sex
>>>>>> Marriage Harms Children.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But homosexuals not only want fair treatment, they are pushing for
>>>>>> "Super
>>>>>> Rights." According the Paul Cameron of the Family Research Institute:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   "Every member of society has a duty to contribute to the
>>>>>> commonwealth.
>>>>>> Yet
>>>>>> the empirical evidence indicates that those who engage in homosexuality
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1)
>>>>>> contribute less and cost more in goods and services, 2)
>>>>>> disproportionately
>>>>>> disrupt social functioning, and 3) have few children while being more
>>>>>> apt to
>>>>>> harm them. Thus, homosexual practioners not only fail to 'pay for their
>>>>>> keep,' but by their negative influence on children, cloud society's
>>>>>> future.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   Those who engage in homosexuality seek what they say are 'gay
>>>>>> rights."
>>>>>> In
>>>>>> reality, they are demanding Super Rights. Super Rights are those
>>>>>> privileges
>>>>>> that allow one to ovverride the inalienable rights of other citizens,
>>>>>> such
>>>>>> as freedom of speech and association. These Super Rights-which are
>>>>>> conferred
>>>>>> by 'non-discrimination,' 'hate crime,' and 'hate speech' laws-allow
>>>>>> homosexuals, if they so choose, to endanger or punish those who would
>>>>>> exercise their associational rights to avoid them or protect their
>>>>>> children
>>>>>> from them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   As an example, empirical studies to date indicate that a male teacher
>>>>>>
>>>>>> who
>>>>>> practices homosexuality is the most likely kind of teacher to sexually
>>>>>> molest students. A principal knowing this may not want to hire a
>>>>>> teacher
>>>>>> who
>>>>>> declares his homosexual interests. But if that teacher wants the job,
>>>>>> his
>>>>>> Super Rights trump the associational rights of the principal as well as
>>>>>>
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> right of students not to experience extra risk (especially since safety
>>>>>>
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> part of their right to life). Parents renting out one side of their
>>>>>> duplex
>>>>>> may not want to place their children at risk by renting to a gay
>>>>>> couple.
>>>>>> But
>>>>>> if-even on a whim - the homosexuals want the duplex, their Super Rights
>>>>>> trump the property and associational rights of the parents as well as
>>>>>> their
>>>>>> children's right not to be exposed to potential molestation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   The Super Rights of homosexual practitioners also squelch the right
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> others to freedom of speech. If a broadcaster opines that homosexual
>>>>>> sex
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> dangerous, but a homosexual finds such speech 'offensive,' his Super
>>>>>> Rights
>>>>>> trump the broadcaster's freedom of speech and the broadcaster may be
>>>>>> fined
>>>>>> or imprisoned."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The concept of hate crimes seems particularly reprehensible. If one of
>>>>>> your
>>>>>> (heterosexual) loved ones is the object of a despicable crime, the
>>>>>> perpetrator would receive a lesser punishment than someone who
>>>>>> committed
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> same act against someone who practices homosexual sex!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> +-+-+-
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    He has made clear to you, O man, what is good; and what is desired
>>>>>> from
>>>>>> you by the Lord; only doing what is
>>>>>>  right, and loving mercy, and walking without pride before your God.
>>>>>> Micah
>>>>>> 6:8
>>>>>> ~~~
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>>>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>>>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>>>>> www.theqonline.net
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/lynnwhite51%40sbcglobal.net
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>>>>
>>> Corey Cook
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
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>> 2:14 PM
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>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com


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From mentink at frontiernet.net  Mon Nov 10 15:15:43 2008
From: mentink at frontiernet.net (Linda Mentink)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 09:15:43 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] New School Prayer
Message-ID: <20081110151541.EDF581A022F@relay03.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>

Beth and all,

That prayer is not new.  It's been around a long time, and is just 
circulating on the internet again.  I've seen it many times before.

Blessings,

Linda




From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Mon Nov 10 15:16:49 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 09:16:49 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
References: <579159.68070.qm@web51906.mail.re2.yahoo.com><B8FA7640775C4FDE80497B65B4DB0E43@TheCooksPC><4383d01d0811092203o615e736fh19eb8d239fd9a81e@mail.gmail.com><4383d01d0811092207g26921e5mcef163ce40090faa@mail.gmail.com><9944582CC9DF48D7BF6ADFE9F1C8841A@TheCooksPC><5A1C408F92ED44208D5537E07C27FDE9@Bonnie>
	<4383d01d0811100428j348bb904w25384046384c5b93@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <27380B04ECA944DABB02EE3558C07BD4@Alan>

Your friends are likely to claim that we're just mean-spirited, "fundamentalist" Christians.  They may not have accepted God's word as truth regarding homosexuality.


+-+-+-

   There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. 
 1 Samuel 2:2
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "Bonnie A" <cedarwoman1965 at gmail.com>; "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 6:28 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations


> I'll have to talk to my friends and see what's up.  I want to hear
> straight from them what they think of this whole thing.
> Beth
> 
> On 11/10/08, Bonnie A <cedarwoman1965 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> If I wasn't a sinner, I wouldn't need the Lord, that's for sure.  *SMILE*
>>
>> ------
>> Bonnie Ainsworth
>> Lincoln, NE USA
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Corey Cook" <ccook01 at knology.net>
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 12:16 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>
>>
>> Sorry Beth,
>> All people are sinners.
>> Includes me and you.
>> Hard pill to take sometimes
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com


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From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Mon Nov 10 15:17:57 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 09:17:57 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Emailing: Last Days Ministries I'm Gay, O.K.
References: <35A03D458698454A84A02B53EB5728FC@Buster><0AE2D4A5152D4796862C6EFB2E88D3AE@nickf1758c2c9d><4383d01d0811091933w2fff5563r4b7dc4d58c5eb47c@mail.gmail.com><005d01c942ec$28333750$5c85fe04@rjige047kjawst><4383d01d0811092230p556cf25bk342c1ae7d2a0e47b@mail.gmail.com><9A311BBAB5BA41DEA003B08E23EAC3D0@Alan>
	<4383d01d0811100438u38051b45u8acd9f6e117fb710@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2C6BED444F494AF585B3010FADECA1FA@Alan>

Again, they weren't healed because they chose that lifestyle.  The blind, or lame didn't choose to be lame, but homosexuals chose their lifestyle because, the reality is, homosexuality is not natural....it isn't what God designed us for.


+-+-+-

   There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. 
 1 Samuel 2:2
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 6:38 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Emailing: Last Days Ministries I'm Gay, O.K.


> Okay.  So Jesus loved and healed people with disabilities, but why
> didn't he heal the homosexuals?  The Bible was written in ancient
> times.  We have to take the Bible seriously here.  Jesus never seems
> to have healed homosexuals.
> Beth
> 
> On 11/10/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>> You're completely missing why Jesus healed those people.  It was their faith
>> that lead Jesus to heal them.  Not their sin.  I've already posted new
>> testament passages showing this, so I won't repeat myself.
>>
>>
>> +-+-+-
>>
>>    There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is
>> there any rock like our God.
>>  1 Samuel 2:2
>> ~~~
>>
>> Alan D Wheeler
>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>> Skype: redwheel1
>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>> www.theqonline.net
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 12:30 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Emailing: Last Days Ministries I'm Gay, O.K.
>>
>>
>>> You're all right about this.  But the Bible makes disabilities and
>>> blindness especially look bad.  Jesus heals a blind man, and back in
>>> he Biblical days, they didn't have Braille, slates and styli, the
>>> Braillewriter, or even more, the Internet, computers, JAWS, and this
>>> listserv.
>>> Think about it.
>>> It doesn't mention Jesus healing a homosexual.  Jesus never hung out
>>> with homosexuals.
>>> Did he?
>>> Beth
>>>
>>> On 11/9/08, rjs059 at peoplepc.com <rjs059 at peoplepc.com> wrote:
>>>> Beth, Marriage, Was a religious practice, long before the government even
>>>> became involved. And furthermore, It is conceder to be a sacrament in the
>>>> Catholic church.
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:33 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Emailing: Last Days Ministries I'm Gay, O.K.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Come on!  I've said it enough.  Marriage isn't going to just be
>>>>> "between ONE MAN and ONE WOMAN" enough these days.  Before you know
>>>>> it, Christians will interpret the Bible as being of the able-bodied to
>>>>> be perfect and capable of multiplyin and so on.  This is horrible!
>>>>> Bet
>>>>>
>>>>> On 11/9/08, trising at sbcglobal.net <trising at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>> That is an absolutely excellent article! All of us sin and fall short
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> glory of God, whether we are gay or a gossip. Jesus loves all of us and
>>>>>> came
>>>>>> here to die in our place for our sins so we can go to heaven and be
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> him. We will not go there if we do not trust in Him alone as the
>>>>>> provider
>>>>>>
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> our salvation. People who commit any sin, and that means all of us,
>>>>>> deserve
>>>>>> to be loved, but not to have our sin excused or minimized. It is God's
>>>>>> design for marriage to be between one man and one woman. we as
>>>>>> Christians
>>>>>> can stand up for what is right, while loving those caught in homosexual
>>>>>> sin.
>>>>>> Giving them special rights is wrong, but so is refusing to talk to
>>>>>> them,
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> regarding them as someone God cannot save.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/rjs059%40peoplepc.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
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>>>> 6:49 PM
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>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1778 - Release Date: 11/9/2008
>> 2:14 PM
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>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
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From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Mon Nov 10 15:21:15 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 09:21:15 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] article4
References: <A44FB971A6D54B02A2851B7A742AFEF7@TheCooksPC><4383d01d0811092245p1a08f350wb42da0902dd5648f@mail.gmail.com><22E98B071846410D8928ED3BF84C74D5@Alan>
	<4383d01d0811100442r7d0b8a1x5ffc42265df8e3ad@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA806F3FC5E84788AD2DF9E24BE8ADC8@Alan>

Okay, but I can believe that Jesus went to mars, and firmly choose to keep that belief even though the Bible says nothing about Jesus going to mars.  So, in the end, it's foolish of me to cling to the belief that Jesus went to mars if the Bible says nothing about Jesus going to mars.

Now, with issues like unwed teen mothers, the Bible may not directly answer that, but it's not intended to.  Anyone want to help me out here?  There is more I should say, but feel unsure as to what.



+-+-+-

   There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. 
 1 Samuel 2:2
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 6:42 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] article4


> You're right.  I want to believe what I want to believe, and it
> doesn't matter what God's book has to say about it.  I mean, the book
> says a lot about women and their place in society, and the book
> doesn't say anything about us females being consecrated.  But the book
> leaves us hanging as far as what to do with unwed teen mothers, which
> there are a lot of.  You've obviously seen my "new school prayer"
> post.
> Beth
> 
> On 11/10/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>> Well, you just summed it up for me.  You want to believe what you want to
>> believe, what God says doesn't matter in the end.  Am I right?
>>
>>
>> +-+-+-
>>
>>    There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is
>> there any rock like our God.
>>  1 Samuel 2:2
>> ~~~
>>
>> Alan D Wheeler
>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>> Skype: redwheel1
>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>> www.theqonline.net
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 12:45 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] article4
>>
>>
>>> Hah.  This is the only article worth reading to me.  Both sides in the
>>> case are right, but I believe I have a right to take the side I'm on
>>> because I don't like to see people get hurt and see them be
>>> discriminated against and placed below the normals, the sighted folks,
>>> the able-bodied, and the normal-thinkers.
>>> Beth
>>>
>>> On 11/9/08, Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net> wrote:
>>>> What's Really at Stake in the Gay Marriage Debate? Part 4
>>>> Albert Mohler
>>>> President, Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
>>>>
>>>> October 27, 2008
>>>>
>>>> Writing more than twenty years ago, Thomas Sowell described the basic
>>>> worldview clash we observe today as a struggle between "constrained" and
>>>> "unconstrained" visions of humanity.  The fundamental distinction between
>>>> these two visions is moral, but the thrust of each is ideological.  The
>>>> constrained vision may be considered basically conservative, while the
>>>> unconstrained vision is basically liberal, in modern terms.
>>>>
>>>> There is great wisdom in Sowell's analysis, and in his book, The Conflict
>>>> of
>>>> Visions. But the greatest achievement of this book is Sowell's insistence
>>>> that political struggles have ideological origins.
>>>>
>>>> This is certainly true with reference to the political struggle over
>>>> same-sex marriage.  In California, the controversy is over "Proposition
>>>> 8"
>>>> on the November ballot -- a measure that would amend the state's
>>>> constitution to establish marriage as the union of a man and a woman.
>>>> Voters in Arizona and Florida will face measures that would disallow
>>>> same-sex marriages.
>>>>
>>>> Nationwide, we face efforts to repeal the Defense of Marriage Act (a
>>>> repeal
>>>> championed by Sen. Barack Obama) and to achieve same-sex marriage through
>>>> the courts.  State by state, the issue is constantly reshaped and
>>>> reframed.
>>>>
>>>> At the same time, there is a sense that the public is shifting its
>>>> perception of the issue.  When the issue is framed as simple fairness,
>>>> Americans increasingly seem to tire of arguing that sexual behavior or
>>>> orientation (at least in terms of homosexuality) should matter when it
>>>> comes
>>>> to the basic rights associated with marriage.  This trend is especially
>>>> noticeable among the young.  Younger Americans, by and large, see
>>>> homosexuality as part of the recognizable landscape and within the normal
>>>> range of human behaviors.
>>>>
>>>> All this represents a massive shift in perception over a relatively short
>>>> period of time.  The activists promoting the normalization of
>>>> homosexuality
>>>> have been tremendously successful in their efforts.  The mainstream
>>>> media,
>>>> the educational elites, and various culture shapers have pushed this
>>>> cause.
>>>> Today, on the average college or university campus, homosexuality is not
>>>> considered to be a major moral issue.  Any discrimination against
>>>> homosexuals, on the other hand, is considered a moral issue of urgency
>>>> and
>>>> outrage.  In much of the culture, it is considered increasingly immoral
>>>> to
>>>> assert that homosexuality is immoral.
>>>>
>>>> There is no real ground for compromise between these two visions and
>>>> perspectives.  Both sides frame their argument in moral terms.  Advocates
>>>> of
>>>> the constrained vision argue that humanity is heterosexual by default and
>>>> design and that homosexuality is thus an aberration to be sanctioned and
>>>> discouraged.  Advocates of the unconstrained vision argue that
>>>> homosexuality
>>>> is just one among several acceptable options for humanity.
>>>>
>>>> This framework for analysis helps to explain why the two opposing sides
>>>> in
>>>> this controversy see the issue in such starkly different terms.
>>>>
>>>> Those opposed to same-sex marriage see marriage as an essentially
>>>> heterosexual institution that is fundamental to human happiness and the
>>>> well-being of civilization.  Those who support same-sex marriage see
>>>> limiting marriage to heterosexuals as a way of exercising patriarchal
>>>> oppression against sexual minorities.  Marriage is seen, therefore, as an
>>>> obstacle to human happiness and autonomy that must be either destroyed or
>>>> radically revised.  The quest for this radical revision is seen as an act
>>>> of
>>>> human liberation.  To the conservative, this is a mortal blow directed at
>>>> the very heart of the culture.
>>>>
>>>> Moral conservatives see homosexual behaviors as matters of grave moral
>>>> concern.  Moral liberals and libertarians see homosexuality as no more
>>>> morally significant than the color of one's eyes.  It's just part of what
>>>> makes some people who they are.
>>>>
>>>> Adding credence to Sowell's argument, a person's position on same-sex
>>>> marriage is a very good predictor of positions held on other issues as
>>>> well.
>>>>  Careful observers know that this is no coincidence.  A cadre of liberal
>>>> Hollywood celebrities supports same-sex marriage as what they call a
>>>> civil
>>>> rights issue and recently held fundraisers that produced millions of
>>>> dollars
>>>> to defeat Proposition 8.  Meanwhile, opposition to same-sex marriage is
>>>> most
>>>> discernable among conservative Christians and other conservative groups
>>>> like
>>>> the Mormons.
>>>>
>>>> The middle ground is fast disappearing, even as arguments based in a
>>>> framework of natural law seem to carry no public force.  This leaves
>>>> conservative Christians -- evangelicals in the main -- as the bulwark of
>>>> opposition to same-sex marriage.  For evangelicals, the question is
>>>> always a
>>>> question of what the Bible teaches, and the Bible straightforwardly
>>>> presents
>>>> homosexual behaviors as immoral and sinful -- and in stark terms.
>>>>
>>>> Believers committed to biblical authority will find no way to avoid this
>>>> controversy, and no ground for accepting the "fairness" argument.  If the
>>>> Bible is the revealed Word of God, then we know that homosexuality is a
>>>> sin
>>>> of great spiritual consequence.  Those who reject the authority of the
>>>> Bible
>>>> will, in the end, likely come to accept some argument for the
>>>> normalization
>>>> of homosexuality and homosexual relationships.
>>>>
>>>> Despite their massive and contentious collision over this great question,
>>>> the two opposing sides in this controversy are agreed on one major point
>>>> --
>>>> the importance of the issue.  Both sides believe that the victory of
>>>> their
>>>> position on this issue is a precondition for true human happiness and
>>>> human
>>>> thriving.  And, truth be known, both sides see the other camp as a threat
>>>> to
>>>> human happiness and well-being.
>>>>
>>>> To a significant degree, these opposing camps define almost all of
>>>> reality
>>>> in starkly different terms.  Both sides bring energy and passion to the
>>>> public square.  Both sides see the controversy as a battle for the future
>>>> of
>>>> civilization.
>>>>
>>>> On that point, at least, both sides are right.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Find this article at: http://www.crosswalk.com/news/commentary/11583981/
>>>>
>>>> Corey Cook
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1778 - Release Date: 11/9/2008
>> 2:14 PM
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
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From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Mon Nov 10 15:25:39 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 09:25:39 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Did Jesus Heal Homosexuals?
References: <35A03D458698454A84A02B53EB5728FC@Buster><0AE2D4A5152D4796862C6EFB2E88D3AE@nickf1758c2c9d><4383d01d0811091933w2fff5563r4b7dc4d58c5eb47c@mail.gmail.com><005d01c942ec$28333750$5c85fe04@rjige047kjawst><4383d01d0811092230p556cf25bk342c1ae7d2a0e47b@mail.gmail.com><9A311BBAB5BA41DEA003B08E23EAC3D0@Alan><4383d01d0811100438u38051b45u8acd9f6e117fb710@mail.gmail.com>
	<000b01c9433f$0cc53060$5b9ef44c@IBMB7D6F383D44>
Message-ID: <D17AD0FB0DFA4C83AFBDCC69A37CB2C9@Alan>

Everett,
Thank you.  I can only add to this that Beth asked how she can tell her friends that their lifestyle is a sin.  That is where repentance comes in.  If you have a sin in your life, to repent is to do a 180 degree turn from it towards God.  You don't do it any more, you don't look at it any more, you don't even think about it any more.  There are plenty of Christians that understand repentance and have trouble with specific sins in their lives. 


+-+-+-

   There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. 
 1 Samuel 2:2
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Everett Gavel" <everettg at successfuladaptations.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 8:17 AM
Subject: [Faith-talk] Did Jesus Heal Homosexuals?


> Hello Beth, and all,
> 
> I've tried to stay out of this.  It does not help 
> anyone learn, if they feel ganged-up on.  But with 
> respect, Beth, I share one point in all this:
> 
> Jesus both lived and preached the word, God's truth, 
> daily.  Did He "heal" sinners?  Not of their sin, no. 
> And homosexuality - just as is lying, fornication, 
> adultery, murder - are all sins.  What He did do was 
> share God's Truth with them, and some it changed, yes. 
> And others it drove away.  But God did not physically 
> "heal" anyone of homosexuality, because it is a sin, 
> not a disability that needs "healing."  It is not of 
> the same ilk as leprosy, or some disease, or some 
> physical disability.  It is sin, plain and simple. 
> Just as is lying, adultery, murder, etc. The Holy 
> Bible - God's inspired word (2 Tim 3:16 - "All 
> scripture is God-breathed...") says this constantly, 
> consistently, throughout the 66 books that comprise the 
> Bible.
> 
> Jesus did not heal from sin.  He did, however, 
> constantly warn against the consequences of it, for the 
> unrepentant heart.
> 
> So, though many of us who try our best each day to live 
> the way Jesus tells us to, often go about it poorly, it 
> is our command, it is our life, to try to help others 
> understand when and if they're purposely living in sin. 
> We will be hated by some for speaking the truth--as was 
> Jesus.  No matter, it is the task given all those who 
> come to know and grasp the beauty that is Jesus Christ.
> 
> Though ultimately I leave it up to God of course, it 
> seems "logical" to me that one cannot know Jesus truly, 
> and continue living in daily sin.  Though one may make 
> poor choices and fall back to their old ways at times, 
> to do so willingly and continuously is not living for 
> Jesus Christ.  And though many call themselves 
> Christians while sinning, willingly, on a continuing 
> basis, Jesus said that many will call Him, "Lord, 
> Lord," but on the day of Judgement, He will say He 
> never knew them.  To be a Christian is to follow 
> Christ.  To follow Christ means to pay attention to 
> what He actually says in His word, the Holy Bible. And 
> the Bible says not to give in to the urges or 
> temptation of homosexuality, as it is a sin.
> 
> Anyway, in summary, no, Jesus did not heal homosexuals 
> of their homosexuality.  It is not a disability or 
> disease that needs physical healing.  It is a sin, as 
> are several other things that Jesus warns against 
> numerous times in His word, the Bible.
> 
> 
> Strive On--for the Truth,
> And for the Truth--We Need to Read Scripture Ourselves 
> Instead of Listening to Others,
> Everett
> www.biblegateway.com (Hint, Hint)  ;-)
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> Okay.  So Jesus loved and healed people with 
>> disabilities, but why
>> didn't he heal the homosexuals?  The Bible was 
>> written in ancient
>> times.  We have to take the Bible seriously here. 
>> Jesus never seems
>> to have healed homosexuals.
>>
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Mon Nov 10 15:27:23 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 09:27:23 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] article 1
References: <5F3A84795F784BB39F938F35FB1FD13B@TheCooksPC><540AD6D7A71946E7A883D27649F2C41F@nickf1758c2c9d><4383d01d0811092239n65ce4819jbbe399d2bc8f7b2e@mail.gmail.com><CD639009D761447DA40E589DE43FF10B@Alan>
	<4383d01d0811100440q885d98dw297c6982352324a0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0C923BCC408E412A877A9F188BBF1E45@Alan>

Beth,
Have them go to this web site and look it over thoroughly:
www.exodus-international.org/


+-+-+-

   There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. 
 1 Samuel 2:2
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 6:40 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] article 1


> How can I explain this to my two friends that their homosexual
> feelings and attractions is a sin?  How can I possibly help them
> "heal" (notice thatI put it in quotes) from sexuality to the same sex?
> Beth
> 
> On 11/10/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>> Then you've obviously turned your heart from God.  I am sorry if that sounds
>> harsh, but if you cannot accept that God declares homosexuality as wrong,
>> you are turning your back on what God has to say.
>>
>>
>> +-+-+-
>>
>>    There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is
>> there any rock like our God.
>>  1 Samuel 2:2
>> ~~~
>>
>> Alan D Wheeler
>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>> Skype: redwheel1
>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>> www.theqonline.net
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 12:39 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] article 1
>>
>>
>>> Forget it.  California already did this, and so did Florida on
>>> Proposition 2.  I'm done here.  This guy is speaking a bunch of tosh
>>> here.  Marriage is no longer just a breeding thing.  It's love as
>>> well.  I mean, if I were eighty years old and couldn't have kids,
>>> could I still marry?  Yes.  I can't breed, but I could still marry.
>>> Now, marriage then is not about breeding.  I don't see why his
>>> argument had to go overboard.  Gay marriage to me is a civil rights
>>> issue as much as it is for me a civil rights issue that we blind
>>> people get to vote on things like what was passed in California and
>>> Florida.
>>> Beth
>>>
>>> On 11/9/08, trising at sbcglobal.net <trising at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>> Great article!
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1778 - Release Date: 11/9/2008
>> 2:14 PM
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1778 - Release Date: 11/9/2008 2:14 PM




From kk3f at msn.com  Mon Nov 10 15:34:00 2008
From: kk3f at msn.com (Pat Gormley)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 10:34:00 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] did Jesus heal homosexuals?
Message-ID: <BAY133-DAV45A625000DC5B5B1860A9901A0@phx.gbl>

There's probably no account in the Bible of Jesus healing homosexuals because according to levitical tradition they would have been stoned to death and you think we as Christians are mean spirited.  

From poetlori8 at msn.com  Mon Nov 10 15:34:50 2008
From: poetlori8 at msn.com (Barbara Hammel)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 09:34:50 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] false accusations
In-Reply-To: <BAY133-DAV7C5DF97F6C797B9A3FAA2901B0@phx.gbl><3DE6C8F59A0A4C4E902D8D50D4BF8043@TheCooksPC><4383d01d0811091914k3751b511h4f7af9209ce59288@mail.gmail.com><BAY113-DS3C6688C327278D0DB7291EB1A0@phx.gbl>
	<4383d01d0811092210n35adc1edv5522f0d9cf8b8ebe@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY133-DAV7C5DF97F6C797B9A3FAA2901B0@phx.gbl><3DE6C8F59A0A4C4E902D8D50D4BF8043@TheCooksPC><4383d01d0811091914k3751b511h4f7af9209ce59288@mail.gmail.com><BAY113-DS3C6688C327278D0DB7291EB1A0@phx.gbl>
	<4383d01d0811092210n35adc1edv5522f0d9cf8b8ebe@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY113-DS3D9E610A258FA98D511DCEB1A0@phx.gbl>

There are many people who do wrong things in God's name.  I do believe that 
the missionaries who went to the Indians were against all the evils that 
were done.
Barbara


--------------------------------------------------
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 12:10 AM
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] false accusations

> That's not always true.  We, European Americans, brought down the
> Native Americans by way of diseases, uncleanliness, and ethnic
> cleansing so to speak.  We called it God's being on our side.  Right?
> The Roman and Greek cvilizations did partake in homosexuality, but the
> Native Americans were very peaceable people, and look what Juan Ponce
> de Leon, da Gama, and many other Spanish, English, French, Dutch, and
> Portuguese explorers did to this continent before it was the United
> States of America!
> Beth
>
> On 11/10/08, Barbara Hammel <poetlori8 at msn.com> wrote:
>> And it's this lack of caring about what's gone on before that has led to 
>> the
>> fall of every civilization that has reinvented the abhorances the Bible
>> speaks of.
>> Barbara
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 9:14 PM
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] false accusations
>>
>>> Okay, okay.  I just said it already.  I don't care about your surveys,
>>> your statistics and data.  It just sounds like a bunch of warped
>>> knowledge to me.
>>> Beth
>>>
>>> On 11/9/08, Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net> wrote:
>>>> Well put Pat.
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Pat Gormley" <kk3f at msn.com>
>>>> To: <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 6:09 PM
>>>> Subject: [Faith-talk] false accusations
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> People that favor same sex unions tend not to be very good students of
>>>>> history.  Ancient Greece and Rome both experienced similar breakdowns 
>>>>> in
>>>>> society as their civilizations.  You also need to look at actuarial 
>>>>> data
>>>>> and those tables indicate that those who engage in alternative
>>>>> lifestyles
>>>>> tend to live 10 to 15 years less than a similarly in tact married
>>>>> couple.
>>>>> I agree with Alan Wheeler in that we hate the sin  but not the sinner.
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>>>>>
>>>> Corey Cook
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
> 



From everettg at successfuladaptations.com  Mon Nov 10 15:42:12 2008
From: everettg at successfuladaptations.com (Everett Gavel)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 10:42:12 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] article 1
References: <5F3A84795F784BB39F938F35FB1FD13B@TheCooksPC><540AD6D7A71946E7A883D27649F2C41F@nickf1758c2c9d><4383d01d0811092239n65ce4819jbbe399d2bc8f7b2e@mail.gmail.com><CD639009D761447DA40E589DE43FF10B@Alan>
	<4383d01d0811100440q885d98dw297c6982352324a0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004801c9434a$e632ce60$5b9ef44c@IBMB7D6F383D44>

Beth asked:
> How can I explain this to my two friends that their 
> homosexual
> feelings and attractions is a sin?
>


How can you?  Well,it's only as hard as you make it. 
It's like asking, "How can I keep from lying to save 
face?"  Or, "How can I keep from masturbating to those 
pictures of all those beautiful wo/men online?"  Or, 
"How can I stop having sexual fantasies about 
so-and-so, when they seem just so amazingly awesome?" 
Or, "How can I control my anger, when it just spouts up 
out of nowhere when I'm around stupid people?"  To ask 
that question borders on the absurd, with all due 
respect.  How can you?  It's easy, if you let the 
truth, the logic and simplicity of it all, shine 
through.  A sin is a sin is a sin.  Homosexuality, like 
lying, like pride, like adultery, like fornication of 
any kind outside of marriage, like murder, are all 
sins.  It's that simple.

Again, forget what we say.  I urge you to begin 
learning the truth today, by reading the Holy Bible for 
yourself:  http://www.biblegateway.com  - What's really 
stopping you?

Personally, I don't recommend starting with the King 
James Version.  It's hard to grasp for most beginners. 
Start with the New International Version (NIV), or the 
Message (MSG), or New Living Translation (NLT).  Just 
go to www.biblegateway.com - and as I suggested in 
another message, begin with the Book of John, the 
Gospel of John.  Just type in, "John 1" to begin 
reading the first chapter.  With each chapter you will 
have a link to listen to the audio version, if you'd 
rather not read through the text given there.  On each 
page there will be a link to go to the next chapter, as 
well.  Then let me know, or let us know (if you're up 
for it), what you think.

God bless your reading--and your path.  I pray Jesus 
opens the eyes of your heart, and your friends as 
well--and knocks down the walls each of us tends to 
build up around our hearts.


All for His Glory,
Everett
www.everettgavel.com







From kk3f at msn.com  Mon Nov 10 15:47:09 2008
From: kk3f at msn.com (Pat Gormley)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 10:47:09 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] a good way to pray for someone going through surgery
Message-ID: <BAY133-DAV328CA6385910367BCA55E901A0@phx.gbl>

A couple of weeks ago, Mary my wife went through hernia surgery and before she went in for the surgery, we had a word of prayer that the Great Physician would guide the surgeon's hands so no mistakes are made and the operation would have its intended effect.  This has happened to me more than once.  Back in 1997, two Jewish doctors who performed Tina's gastric bypass surgery came to us when she was in recovery and told us we didn't perform this surgery because they really sensed the presence of angels in the operating room.  

From poetlori8 at msn.com  Mon Nov 10 15:54:24 2008
From: poetlori8 at msn.com (Barbara Hammel)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 09:54:24 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] article 1
In-Reply-To: <5F3A84795F784BB39F938F35FB1FD13B@TheCooksPC><540AD6D7A71946E7A883D27649F2C41F@nickf1758c2c9d><4383d01d0811092239n65ce4819jbbe399d2bc8f7b2e@mail.gmail.com><CD639009D761447DA40E589DE43FF10B@Alan>
	<4383d01d0811100440q885d98dw297c6982352324a0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5F3A84795F784BB39F938F35FB1FD13B@TheCooksPC><540AD6D7A71946E7A883D27649F2C41F@nickf1758c2c9d><4383d01d0811092239n65ce4819jbbe399d2bc8f7b2e@mail.gmail.com><CD639009D761447DA40E589DE43FF10B@Alan>
	<4383d01d0811100440q885d98dw297c6982352324a0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY113-DS2FA09F9CC98B1FCA58471EB1A0@phx.gbl>

Let's also face the truth about why many people become homosexuals.  It is 
the worst kind of abuse and takes a lot of work to overcome.  Many times we 
want to avoid the things that hurt us very badly.
Barbara


--------------------------------------------------
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 6:40 AM
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] article 1

> How can I explain this to my two friends that their homosexual
> feelings and attractions is a sin?  How can I possibly help them
> "heal" (notice thatI put it in quotes) from sexuality to the same sex?
> Beth
>
> On 11/10/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>> Then you've obviously turned your heart from God.  I am sorry if that 
>> sounds
>> harsh, but if you cannot accept that God declares homosexuality as wrong,
>> you are turning your back on what God has to say.
>>
>>
>> +-+-+-
>>
>>    There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither 
>> is
>> there any rock like our God.
>>  1 Samuel 2:2
>> ~~~
>>
>> Alan D Wheeler
>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>> Skype: redwheel1
>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>> www.theqonline.net
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 12:39 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] article 1
>>
>>
>>> Forget it.  California already did this, and so did Florida on
>>> Proposition 2.  I'm done here.  This guy is speaking a bunch of tosh
>>> here.  Marriage is no longer just a breeding thing.  It's love as
>>> well.  I mean, if I were eighty years old and couldn't have kids,
>>> could I still marry?  Yes.  I can't breed, but I could still marry.
>>> Now, marriage then is not about breeding.  I don't see why his
>>> argument had to go overboard.  Gay marriage to me is a civil rights
>>> issue as much as it is for me a civil rights issue that we blind
>>> people get to vote on things like what was passed in California and
>>> Florida.
>>> Beth
>>>
>>> On 11/9/08, trising at sbcglobal.net <trising at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>> Great article!
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1778 - Release Date: 11/9/2008
>> 2:14 PM
>>
>>
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>
> _______________________________________________
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> 



From poetlori8 at msn.com  Mon Nov 10 16:05:18 2008
From: poetlori8 at msn.com (Barbara Hammel)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 10:05:18 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] new school prayer
In-Reply-To: <4383d01d0811092216q59181091yc699696d88694561@mail.gmail.com><A8379C6B9A784BA999CEF838A0A8F5D4@Alan>
	<4383d01d0811100433o676b3facl8a7e7ba93c831672@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4383d01d0811092216q59181091yc699696d88694561@mail.gmail.com><A8379C6B9A784BA999CEF838A0A8F5D4@Alan>
	<4383d01d0811100433o676b3facl8a7e7ba93c831672@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY113-DS5EB7937D06E6798428D42EB1A0@phx.gbl>

The first amendment talks about freedom of religion.  The liberals would 
like us to believe that it means freedom from religion.
The reasons why we have no control in school is because we removed God and 
corporal punishment from them.
It was the flaw in the human that makes oppression occur in civilizations. 
But when this country was made up of many who believed in a higher being 
that we prospered and became the greatest nation on earth.  As we pull 
farther away from God, the more we will falter.
The Muslim world hates America not because of who we are, but what lack of 
morals America has come to stand for.  I heard a professional ballplayer 
once say that he just wanted to be who he was and not be a role model.  The 
truth of the matter is, when you are in a place where people could look up 
to you you have no choice.  You are likely to be one.  We Christians have 
failed miserably because we have forgotten that we live in this world not 
for this world.  Our permanent residence is not here but in Heaven.  We are 
just passing through and should be trying to take as many with us as we can.

Barbara

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 6:33 AM
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] new school prayer

> You think it's ironic?  Wow, Allan.  I thought this would be cool to
> post.  I don't believe in a lot of things: teen pregnancy, guns
> inschools, and, come to think of it, keeping God out of the pledge.
> But why should we not pray in school?  There's a reason why our
> Constitution says we can't pray in school though the words aren't
> written there.  The first clause of it, according to my roommate, who
> works at an Anglican church, says we cannot force religion on the
> people of America.  I don't think we can stop teens from being teens,
> but I don't think we should encourage them to be pregnant senior
> queens in the case of girls.  I believe we should empower young women
> through school and so on.  If a young girl gets raped, she should have
> access to the morning-after as an emergency, not as a way to abort a
> potential life.  And, of course, to catch the rapist, we should use
> DNA evidence.  There's a lot in that poem that I have to analyze.
> Beth
>
> On 11/10/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>> It is so ironic you would post this.  It talks about keeping God out of
>> school and you won't even surrender in obedience to what God says about
>> homosexuality?  Very very ironic.
>>
>>
>> +-+-+-
>>
>>    There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither 
>> is
>> there any rock like our God.
>>  1 Samuel 2:2
>> ~~~
>>
>> Alan D Wheeler
>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>> Skype: redwheel1
>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>> www.theqonline.net
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 12:16 AM
>> Subject: [Faith-talk] new school prayer
>>
>>
>>> Take a look at this, guys.  My close friend sent me this one.
>>>
>>>> >> A kid in Arizona wrote the attached
>>>> >>
>>>> >> NEW School prayer :
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Now I sit me down in school
>>>> >> Where praying is against the rule
>>>> >> For this great nation under God
>>>> >> Finds mention of Him very odd.
>>>> >> If Scripture now the class recites,
>>>> >> It violates the Bill of Rights.
>>>> >> And anytime my head I bow
>>>> >> Becomes a Federal matter now.
>>>> >> Our hair can be purple, orange or green,
>>>> >> That's no offense; it's a freedom scene.
>>>> >> The law is specific, the law is precise.
>>>> >> Prayers spoken aloud are a serious vice.
>>>> >> For praying in a public hall
>>>> >> Might offend someone with no faith at all.
>>>> >> In silence alone we must meditate,
>>>> >> God's name is prohibited by the state.
>>>> >> We're allowed to cuss and dress like freaks,
>>>> >> And pierce our noses, tongues and cheeks..
>>>> >> They've outlawed guns, but FIRST the Bible.
>>>> >> To quote the Good Book makes me liable.
>>>> >> We can elect a pregnant Senior Queen,
>>>> >> And the 'unwed daddy,' our Senior King.
>>>> >> It's 'inappropriate' to teach right from wrong,
>>>> >> We're taught that such 'judgments' do not belong.
>>>> >> We can get our condoms and birth controls,
>>>> >> Study witchcraft, vampires and totem poles.
>>>> >> But the Ten Commandments are not allowed,
>>>> >> No word of God must reach this crowd.
>>>> >> It's scary here I must confess,
>>>> >> When chaos reigns the school's a mess.
>>>> >> So, Lord, this silent plea I make:
>>>> >> Should I be shot; My soul please take!
>>>> >> Amen
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1778 - Release Date: 11/9/2008
>> 2:14 PM
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
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> 



From poetlori8 at msn.com  Mon Nov 10 16:11:38 2008
From: poetlori8 at msn.com (Barbara Hammel)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 10:11:38 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Did Jesus Heal Homosexuals?
In-Reply-To: <35A03D458698454A84A02B53EB5728FC@Buster><0AE2D4A5152D4796862C6EFB2E88D3AE@nickf1758c2c9d><4383d01d0811091933w2fff5563r4b7dc4d58c5eb47c@mail.gmail.com><005d01c942ec$28333750$5c85fe04@rjige047kjawst><4383d01d0811092230p556cf25bk342c1ae7d2a0e47b@mail.gmail.com><9A311BBAB5BA41DEA003B08E23EAC3D0@Alan><4383d01d0811100438u38051b45u8acd9f6e117fb710@mail.gmail.com><000b01c9433f$0cc53060$5b9ef44c@IBMB7D6F383D44>
	<4383d01d0811100707l2fc337c0kcee32061db492c2e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <35A03D458698454A84A02B53EB5728FC@Buster><0AE2D4A5152D4796862C6EFB2E88D3AE@nickf1758c2c9d><4383d01d0811091933w2fff5563r4b7dc4d58c5eb47c@mail.gmail.com><005d01c942ec$28333750$5c85fe04@rjige047kjawst><4383d01d0811092230p556cf25bk342c1ae7d2a0e47b@mail.gmail.com><9A311BBAB5BA41DEA003B08E23EAC3D0@Alan><4383d01d0811100438u38051b45u8acd9f6e117fb710@mail.gmail.com><000b01c9433f$0cc53060$5b9ef44c@IBMB7D6F383D44>
	<4383d01d0811100707l2fc337c0kcee32061db492c2e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY113-DS41F22A261B47244BBF623EB1A0@phx.gbl>

And there again, you have the flaw of the human nature.  Satan wishes for us 
to hate each other and have no compassion.  The world has a difficult time 
understanding the difference between who a person is and how they choose to 
act.
Barbara

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 9:07 AM
To: "Everett Gavel" <EverettG at successfuladaptations.com>; "Faith-talk,for 
the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Did Jesus Heal Homosexuals?

> Okay, Everet.  That what you said is true.  But let me point out aht
> homosexuals and people with AIDS are being persecuted daily for their
> "sin" and their disease.  People with AIDS, homosexual or not, need
> healing and prayers.
> Beth
>
> On 11/10/08, Everett Gavel <everettg at successfuladaptations.com> wrote:
>> Hello Beth, and all,
>>
>> I've tried to stay out of this.  It does not help
>> anyone learn, if they feel ganged-up on.  But with
>> respect, Beth, I share one point in all this:
>>
>> Jesus both lived and preached the word, God's truth,
>> daily.  Did He "heal" sinners?  Not of their sin, no.
>> And homosexuality - just as is lying, fornication,
>> adultery, murder - are all sins.  What He did do was
>> share God's Truth with them, and some it changed, yes.
>> And others it drove away.  But God did not physically
>> "heal" anyone of homosexuality, because it is a sin,
>> not a disability that needs "healing."  It is not of
>> the same ilk as leprosy, or some disease, or some
>> physical disability.  It is sin, plain and simple.
>> Just as is lying, adultery, murder, etc. The Holy
>> Bible - God's inspired word (2 Tim 3:16 - "All
>> scripture is God-breathed...") says this constantly,
>> consistently, throughout the 66 books that comprise the
>> Bible.
>>
>> Jesus did not heal from sin.  He did, however,
>> constantly warn against the consequences of it, for the
>> unrepentant heart.
>>
>> So, though many of us who try our best each day to live
>> the way Jesus tells us to, often go about it poorly, it
>> is our command, it is our life, to try to help others
>> understand when and if they're purposely living in sin.
>> We will be hated by some for speaking the truth--as was
>> Jesus.  No matter, it is the task given all those who
>> come to know and grasp the beauty that is Jesus Christ.
>>
>> Though ultimately I leave it up to God of course, it
>> seems "logical" to me that one cannot know Jesus truly,
>> and continue living in daily sin.  Though one may make
>> poor choices and fall back to their old ways at times,
>> to do so willingly and continuously is not living for
>> Jesus Christ.  And though many call themselves
>> Christians while sinning, willingly, on a continuing
>> basis, Jesus said that many will call Him, "Lord,
>> Lord," but on the day of Judgement, He will say He
>> never knew them.  To be a Christian is to follow
>> Christ.  To follow Christ means to pay attention to
>> what He actually says in His word, the Holy Bible. And
>> the Bible says not to give in to the urges or
>> temptation of homosexuality, as it is a sin.
>>
>> Anyway, in summary, no, Jesus did not heal homosexuals
>> of their homosexuality.  It is not a disability or
>> disease that needs physical healing.  It is a sin, as
>> are several other things that Jesus warns against
>> numerous times in His word, the Bible.
>>
>>
>> Strive On--for the Truth,
>> And for the Truth--We Need to Read Scripture Ourselves
>> Instead of Listening to Others,
>> Everett
>> www.biblegateway.com (Hint, Hint)  ;-)
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> Okay.  So Jesus loved and healed people with
>>> disabilities, but why
>>> didn't he heal the homosexuals?  The Bible was
>>> written in ancient
>>> times.  We have to take the Bible seriously here.
>>> Jesus never seems
>>> to have healed homosexuals.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
> 



From wesley.burden at verizon.net  Mon Nov 10 16:53:07 2008
From: wesley.burden at verizon.net (WESLEY BURDEN)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 11:53:07 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] FW: [BlindMen4Christ] A Brighter Tomorrow
Message-ID: <AE7E5EE5424B4281ADDA54E4A906CBB4@Buster>

 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindmen4christ-bounces at morales-family.lljfm.net
[mailto:blindmen4christ-bounces at morales-family.lljfm.net] On Behalf Of Stu
(by way of Curtis Delzer <curtis at calweb.com>)
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 11:26 AM
To: Blind men for Christ
Subject: [BlindMen4Christ] A Brighter Tomorrow

SHACKLED BY MAN...SET FREE BY GOD

"And when they had laid many stripes upon them, they cast them into prison,
charging the jailer to keep them safely ... And suddenly there was a great
earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken: and
immediately all the doors were opened, and everyone's bands were loosed."
Acts 16:23,26

The believer has the joy of knowing that his life is "hid in Christ." 
He has the choice of living day by day with confidence in the ONE who orders
his steps and will direct him in the paths of righteousness for HIS name's
sake. There are no circumstances in his life that have not first passed
through the permissive will of God, and are formed in the providence of His
plan and purpose.

In the life of a believer, who is committed and loyal to God, there is no
such thing as chance or luck. God often brings us into circumstances that we
do not understand, among people that we do not know, into places we have
never been that we may trust him in these strange encounters, and bring them
before Him in unwavering faith, that the Holy Spirit may work to glorify God
through it all. God does not ask us to understand these circumstances, but
to trust Him in them, and see His mighty power being manifested in ways
beyond our finite resources.

Such encounters challenge the depth of our faith which must be tried before
the reality of faith is actual. God brings these circumstances into our
lives for many reasons. One that is foremost is to turn our "head faith" 
into a personal possession. In this, we get constant opposition from Satan
himself.
It is not a fight sometimes, but always. But God has a purpose in these
trying circumstances. He wants to show us that the nature of faith is to
make its object real. Faith is the whole man rightly related to God, that
activates an unwavering trust in Him, in whatever circumstance he finds
himself by the power of the Holy Spirit. God wants the focus of our faith to
be centered in Him, regardless of the measure of our circumstances, large or
small. The smallest detail in which we follow in simple obedience and
child-like faith has all the omnipotent power of the grace of God behind it.

Paul and Silas had just seen God's power manifested through them, in casting
out the evil spirit that possessed a young girl. They were falsely accused,
stripped, beaten, unjustly thrown into prison, and their feet bound fast to
the stocks. This was the unjust reaction of ungodly men, shackled by man.
What a scene! They had every human right to complain, cry out for justice,
and plead for mercy. Their eyes were not fixed upon their circumstances, for
they knew God was in control, and in His providential care, permitted this
encounter to reach one man, the jailer...and then, his whole family.

Look at the scene. Paul and Silas were a pitifully beaten sight of humanity,
and what was their response? "At midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang
praises to God, and the prisoners heard them." Can you imagine what went
through the minds of these prisoners as they heard Paul and Silas pray and
praise God in word and song? But then, we see them set free by God. "The
earthquake shook the prison, the doors opened, and everyone's bands were
loosed." We may not be responsible for the circumstances we are in, but we
are responsible for the way we allow those circumstances to affect us: we
can either allow them to defeat us, or we can allow them to transform us
into what God wants us to be. Paul said, "And in all these things we are
more than conquerors through Him that loved us" (Romans 8:37). God has
promised an overcoming spirit to all who will dare to trust Him! "But thanks
be unto God, who always leads us in triumphal procession in Christ and
through us spreads everywhere the fragrance of the knowledge of Him."
Shackled by man...set free by God!


Stu
<mailto:K5stu at sbcglobal.net>K5stu at sbcglobal.net
Reading your Bible today will help prepare you for A Brighter Tomorrow!
_______________________________________________
BlindMen4Christ mailing list
BlindMen4Christ at morales-family.lljfm.net
http://morales-family.lljfm.net/mailman/listinfo/blindmen4christ_morales-fam
ily.lljfm.net




From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Mon Nov 10 17:00:25 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 11:00:25 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
References: <579159.68070.qm@web51906.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <235D5C8B269541B89AE84980D4F6EDC8@your4dacd0ea75>

Thank you for also bringing this concept out.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Frank Lordi" <timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations


> The bible clearly states that homosexual sex is an abomination.
>
> This is one of the hardest things about believing.  We must submit to 
> God's law.  We are 'a stif fnecked people' so this is difficult but we 
> must do it.  We need not understand, we need not agree, but we must obey. 
> Our Lord says those are his friends who keep his commands.  So if we want 
> to be his friend, we must accept among other things, that homosexual sex 
> is a sin.
>
> Perhaps it will help to look at it this way.  I like women a great deal. 
> I cannot stop liking women.  Often times i 'want' badly to have relations 
> with said women, but God's law says no, so i must follow this or accept 
> the wages of sin.
>
> The same goes for homosexuals, for cleptomaniacs, for the greedy, the 
> hopeless, etc.  We all have our crosses to carry, our temptations to 
> resist.
>
> --- On Sun, 11/9/08, BMW <lynnwhite51 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> From: BMW <lynnwhite51 at sbcglobal.net>
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>> To: "Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion" 
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 10:49 PM
>> Beth, sex outside of the relationship between a husband and
>> wife is a sin.
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> To: <timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com>; "Faith-talk,for
>> the discussion of faith and
>> religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 9:12 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>
>>
>> > Okay, if homosexuality is a sin, guess what?  What
>> about the
>> > homosexuals who have homosexual relations with each
>> other and cannot
>> > be attracted to opposite sex members?  I again may
>> mention that I have
>> > friends who are gay/lesbian.  And I am pleased with
>> Obama in the white
>> > house.  God knows what's best, and I believe in a
>> God who loves all,
>> > and God knows that homosexuality is a sin, but it is a
>> sin between
>> > those who can physically have someone of the opposite
>> sex along with
>> > being attracted with someone of the opposite sex.
>> Take my
>> > ex-boyfriend for instance.  He likes women, but if he
>> went to sleep
>> > with a young college friend of mine who I know is
>> attracted to girls,
>> > THAT is a sin.  But if my friend who is lesbian went
>> to sleep with the
>> > equally lesbian girlfriend, it is not a sin.  We must
>> love everybody
>> > unconditionally, and we must not say that they are
>> committing a sin
>> > unless they really are and have the brain chemicals
>> made up so that
>> > they are attracted to someone of the opposite sex.  I
>> am attracted to
>> > menh, so if I went to sleep with my college roommate,
>> for instance,
>> > that would be a in in itself.  I am blind, and if I
>> married a blind
>> > man, that would be fine.  But the way this country and
>> the bible seems
>> > to be interpreted, homosexuality would be stomped out
>> and next will be
>> > blindness.  Before we know it, our listservs will be
>> in jeopardy, an
>> > then, we wouldn't be able to marry, write, read,
>> go to college, and if
>> > the Terrorists get our country, and that is if Barack
>> Obama's not
>> > watching over us, we will be wearing veils if
>> we're female.  I for one
>> > do not want any ore arguments about homosexuality to
>> ever pop up again
>> > on this listserv.  I want to play it straight: it may
>> be a sin, but
>> > unfortunately, nobody understands the homosexual
>> cannot be changed if
>> > they are truly homosexual.  I understand my friends,
>> and they are good
>> > people.  They are going to college and they are going
>> to be band and
>> > chorus teachers.  Do you people thin that these girls
>> I'm friends with
>> > shouldn't be band and chorus teachers to young
>> children because they
>> > are homosexuals?  According to the weird article I
>> read, yes.  But I'd
>> > hire them any time.
>> > Anyway, that's my soap box for today.
>> > Beth
>> >
>> > On 11/9/08, Frank Lordi
>> <timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >> you are speakin gof the concept of 'blood
>> guilt'?
>> >>
>> >> This so often brought grief to Isreal, no?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --- On Sun, 11/9/08, Corey Cook
>> <ccook01 at knology.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> From: Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net>
>> >>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>> >>> To: "Faith-talk, for the discussion of
>> faith and religion"
>> >>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> >>> Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 8:44 PM
>> >>> Homosexuality is sin.
>> >>> Read Romans 1
>> >>> read first Corinthians 6
>> >>> Yes we need to love them just as we love all
>> sinners, but
>> >>> it is time to call it what it is, and that is
>> sin!
>> >>> It is a sin that will be the end of this
>> country if we
>> >>> allow it to be accepted and embraced.
>> >>> Not a popular thought, but a true one.
>> >>>
>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan
>> Wheeler"
>> >>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
>> >>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of
>> faith and
>> >>> religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> >>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 6:29 PM
>> >>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> > Never mind.  I keep telling you it is
>> called a sin in
>> >>> the bible...if you don't want to believe
>> that God calls
>> >>> it a sin, I can't say anything to sway
>> you.
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > +-+-+-
>> >>> >
>> >>> >   There is none holy as the LORD: for
>> there is none
>> >>> beside thee: neither is there any rock like
>> our God.
>> >>> > 1 Samuel 2:2
>> >>> > ~~~
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Alan D Wheeler
>> >>> > awheeler at neb.rr.com
>> >>> > IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>> >>> > Skype: redwheel1
>> >>> > Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM
>> to 1 PM
>> >>> eastern time at www.theqonline.net
>> >>> >
>> >>> > ----- Original Message ----- From:
>> "Beth"
>> >>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> >>> > To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion
>> of faith and
>> >>> religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> >>> > Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 2:41 PM
>> >>> > Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False
>> Accusations
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >> We're talking about a country
>> where not
>> >>> everybody believes in God.  We
>> >>> >> Christians are shoving God down the
>> throats of
>> >>> those who don't know
>> >>> >> him.  We need to pray for the
>> homosexuals and
>> >>> those who are
>> >>> >> experiencing a so-called sin ad we
>> need to be
>> >>> nicer to these people
>> >>> >> for God's own sake.
>> >>> >> Beth
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler
>> >>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>> >>> >>> At the same time, homosexuality
>> is called a
>> >>> sin and abomination by God. So
>> >>> >>> you think we should allow people
>> to continue
>> >>> to sin against God?
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>> +-+-+-
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>>    We know that all things work
>> together for
>> >>> good for those who love God, to
>> >>> >>> those
>> >>> >>> who are called according to his
>> purpose.
>> >>> >>>  Romans 8:28
>> >>> >>> ~~~
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>> Alan D Wheeler
>> >>> >>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>> >>> >>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>> >>> >>> Skype: redwheel1
>> >>> >>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays
>> from 10 AM to 1
>> >>> PM eastern time at
>> >>> >>> www.theqonline.net
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message -----
>> >>> >>> From: "Beth"
>> >>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> >>> >>> To: "Faith-talk,for the
>> discussion of
>> >>> faith and religion"
>> >>> >>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> >>> >>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008
>> 10:44 AM
>> >>> >>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False
>> Accusations
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>>> I would have toagree with
>> Julie.  Marriage
>> >>> is about love, not
>> >>> >>>> procreative reasons only.
>> I've known
>> >>> friends who've gotten married as
>> >>> >>>> nonprocreative peoples.
>> Also, has anybody
>> >>> thought that marriage
>> >>> >>>> should at least be for those
>> that can
>> >>> participate in it as well?
>> >>> >>>> Also, if we have bans on
>> same-sex
>> >>> marriage, think of it this way: we
>> >>> >>>> are forcing religion on the
>> people, which
>> >>> God really doesn't want us
>> >>> >>>> to do.  To be Christ-like is
>> not to shove
>> >>> God down the throats of
>> >>> >>>> those who don't know him,
>> but to
>> >>> spread God's love to them, to let
>> >>> >>>> them be free people.
>> >>> >>>> Beth
>> >>> >>>>
>> >>> >>>> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler
>> >>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>> >>> >>>>> Beth,
>> >>> >>>>> I gently disagree with
>> you.  Marriage
>> >>> was designed by God to be between a
>> >>> >>>>> man and a woman.
>> Don't take issue
>> >>> because I said it.  Study the Bible
>> >>> >>>>> and
>> >>> >>>>> if you still don't
>> like it, then
>> >>> you have to take it up with God.  It was
>> >>> >>>>> His idea to begin with,
>> not man's.
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>> >>>>> +-+-+-
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>    The LORD is my
>> strength and song,
>> >>> and he is become my salvation: he is
>> >>> >>>>> my
>> >>> >>>>> God, and I will prepare
>> him an
>> >>> >>>>>  habitation; my
>> father's God, and
>> >>> I will exalt him.
>> >>> >>>>>  Exodus 15:2
>> >>> >>>>> ~~~
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>> >>>>> Alan D Wheeler
>> >>> >>>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>> >>> >>>>> IM me at:
>> outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>> >>> >>>>> Skype: redwheel1
>> >>> >>>>> Check me out on the Q,
>> Fridays from 10
>> >>> AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>> >>> >>>>> www.theqonline.net
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>> >>>>> ----- Original Message
>> -----
>> >>> >>>>> From: "Beth"
>> >>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> >>> >>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for
>> the
>> >>> discussion of faith and religion"
>> >>> >>>>>
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> >>> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, November
>> 09, 2008 7:29
>> >>> AM
>> >>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk]
>> False
>> >>> Accusations
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>> I don't care if
>> Obama's
>> >>> half-black.  God's people will come to
>> >>> >>>>>> understand a few
>> things:
>> >>> >>>>>> 1. Marriage, for
>> example, is not
>> >>> between "one man and one woman".  It
>> >>> >>>>>> is between two able
>> parties, same
>> >>> o different sex, that are actually
>> >>> >>>>>> willing to stay
>> together.  Our
>> >>> high divorce rate of heterosexual
>> >>> >>>>>> couples mostly is bad
>> for our
>> >>> children herein America.
>> >>> >>>>>> 2. Abortion should
>> never happen.
>> >>> If it's something that has to do
>> >>> >>>>>> with the mother's
>> life and
>> >>> health, then that's the only exception.
>> >>> >>>>>> But rape and birth
>> control reasons
>> >>> are not good ones.
>> >>> >>>>>> 3. Blind people can
>> and wwill have
>> >>> equal rights to vote, gain security
>> >>> >>>>>> benefits, and so on.
>> Yes,
>> >>> Obama's the most liberal, but we need him.
>> >>> >>>>>> Maybe he's a lot
>> more
>> >>> Christian than Bush was.  But God's people
>> must
>> >>> >>>>>> not be against him.
>> I'm a
>> >>> Catholic, and I'm also a liberal as well.
>> >>> >>>>>> Obama has also beat
>> Kennedy by so
>> >>> many years.  ANything having to do
>> >>> >>>>>> with race is out as
>> far as I'm
>> >>> concerned.  Next, what will happen when
>> >>> >>>>>> a woman is in the
>> White House?
>> >>> What about a blind woman? lol
>> >>> >>>>>> Beth
>> >>> >>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>> On 11/8/08, Linda
>> Mentink
>> >>> <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
>> >>> >>>>>>> Hi Julie,
>> >>> >>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>> I'm sorry,
>> too.  I'm
>> >>> not against our president elect because
>> he's
>> >>> >>>>>>> black.  Fact is,
>> he's half
>> >>> black.  That's neither here nor
>> >>> >>>>>>> there.  It's
>> mainly
>> >>> because he's the most liberal of all in
>> Congress,
>> >>> >>>>>>> and I believe
>> that a lot of
>> >>> our rights will be taken away once he is
>> >>> >>>>>>> sworn in.
>> We'll see what
>> >>> happens, but I'm praying for him, and all
>> >>> >>>>>>> the rest in
>> authority over us.
>> >>>  I sent those things to you because I
>> >>> >>>>>>> knew you
>> wouldn't find out
>> >>> from the mainstream media.  But the
>> >>> >>>>>>> election has made
>> history, and
>> >>> God's people need to be more vigilent
>> >>> >>>>>>> than
>> >>> >>>>>>> ever.
>> >>> >>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>> Blessings,
>> >>> >>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>> Linda
>> >>> >>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>> At 03:33 PM
>> 11/8/2008, you
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>> >>>>>>>> It happened
>> by accident.
>> >>> When you didn't stop attacking in my
>> >>> >>>>>>>> in-box--those
>> of you who
>> >>> did it--people of other races by way of our
>> >>> >>>>>>>> new
>> President-elect, I
>> >>> wrote what I wrote.  Now you know how false
>> >>> >>>>>>>> accusations
>> hurt
>> >>> everybody.  Because of one man the
>> African-American
>> >>> >>>>>>>> Church, and
>> people who
>> >>> attend them, have been under tremendous
>> >>> >>>>>>>> attack ever
>> since last
>> >>> March with no let-up.  Ever since I began
>> >>> >>>>>>>> attending and
>> became saved
>> >>> in African-American churches in 1972,
>> >>> >>>>>>>> I've
>> heard dirty,
>> >>> dirty comments like:  "they just do in
>> their
>> >>> >>>>>>>> church what
>> they did in
>> >>> the slave days."  In the slave days,
>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>> African-Americans
>> >>> weren't permitted to know anything of the
>> Bible
>> >>> >>>>>>>> but
>> "Servants obey
>> >>> your masters in the Lord for this is right.
>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>> If people say
>> what people
>> >>> have said about one another's churches
>> >>> >>>>>>>> ever since
>> last March,
>> >>> referring to us as blind people, we'd be
>> up
>> >>> >>>>>>>> in arms.  Let
>> us all be
>> >>> more careful.
>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>> It hit me
>> like a
>> >>> thunderbolt while I was playing piano at a
>> senior
>> >>> >>>>>>>> citizens
>> building today
>> >>> why you all were upset.  And as upset as you
>> >>> >>>>>>>> were last
>> Thursday night,
>> >>> Linda, I was that upset one month ago when
>> >>> >>>>>>>> I read what
>> you
>> >>> particularly sent me privately at 5:00 on a
>> Sunday
>> >>> >>>>>>>> morning while
>>  I was
>> >>> getting ready for church.  I'm sorry and
>> maybe
>> >>> >>>>>>>> we can
>> understand one
>> >>> another better now.
>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>>  has been
>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>> "Loyalty
>> to petrified
>> >>> opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a
>> >>> >>>>>>>> human
>> soul," American
>> >>> Humorist Mark Twain
>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>> "An
>> attack on one of
>> >>> us is an attack on all of us," Dr.
>> Kenneth
>> >>> >>>>>>>> Jernigan,
>> Immediate Past
>> >>> President, National Federation of the Blind
>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>> "A
>> brother offended
>> >>> is harder to be won than a strong city: and
>> >>> >>>>>>>> their
>> contentions are like
>> >>> the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19.
>> KJV
>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>> "Faith
>> is the ability
>> >>> to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>> "No one
>> can do it for
>> >>> us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation
>> Push,
>> >>> >>>>>>>> 1976.
>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>> "With
>> proper
>> >>> training, development, and opportunity,
>> blindness can
>> >>> >>>>>>>> be reduced to
>> the level of
>> >>> a physical nuisance or characteristic,"
>> >>> >>>>>>>> the Late Dr.
>> Kenneth
>> >>> Jernigan, Past President, National Federation
>> >>> >>>>>>>> of the Blind.
>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>> Julie Vogt or
>> >>> jcvogt at pressenter.com
>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> >>>>>>>> Faith-talk
>> mailing list
>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> >>> >>>>>>>> To
>> unsubscribe, change
>> >>> your list options or get your account info
>> >>> >>>>>>>> for
>> Faith-talk:
>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net
>> >>> >>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> >>>>>>> Faith-talk
>> mailing list
>> >>> >>>>>>>
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> >>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe,
>> change your
>> >>> list options or get your account info for
>> >>> >>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>> >>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>> >>> >>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>
>> >>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> >>>>>> Faith-talk mailing
>> list
>> >>> >>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >>> >>>>>>
>> >>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> >>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe,
>> change your list
>> >>> options or get your account info for
>> >>> >>>>>> Faith-talk:
>> >>> >>>>>>
>> >>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>> >>>>> No virus found in this
>> incoming
>> >>> message.
>> >>> >>>>> Checked by AVG -
>> http://www.avg.com
>> >>> >>>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus
>> Database:
>> >>> 270.9.0/1776 - Release Date: 11/8/2008
>> >>> >>>>> 6:49 PM
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> >>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> >>> >>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> >>> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change
>> your list
>> >>> options or get your account info for
>> >>> >>>>> Faith-talk:
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>> >>>>
>> >>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> >>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> >>> >>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> >>> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your
>> list options
>> >>> or get your account info for
>> >>> >>>> Faith-talk:
>> >>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>>
>> >>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>> No virus found in this incoming
>> message.
>> >>> >>> Checked by AVG -
>> http://www.avg.com
>> >>> >>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus
>> Database:
>> >>> 270.9.0/1778 - Release Date: 11/9/2008
>> >>> >>> 2:14 PM
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>>
>> >>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> >>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> >>> >>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >>> >>>
>> >>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list
>> options or
>> >>> get your account info for
>> >>> >>> Faith-talk:
>> >>> >>>
>> >>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> >> Faith-talk mailing list
>> >>> >> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >>> >>
>> >>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> >>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list
>> options or get
>> >>> your account info for Faith-talk:
>> >>> >>
>> >>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > No virus found in this incoming message.
>> >>> > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>> >>> > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database:
>> 270.9.0/1778 -
>> >>> Release Date: 11/9/2008 2:14 PM
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> > Faith-talk mailing list
>> >>> > Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >>> >
>> >>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options
>> or get your
>> >>> account info for Faith-talk:
>> >>> >
>> >>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>> >>> >
>> >>> Corey Cook
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> >>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or
>> get your
>> >>> account info for Faith-talk:
>> >>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/timber_wolf899%40yahoo.com
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Faith-talk mailing list
>> >> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get
>> your account info for
>> >> Faith-talk:
>> >>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>> >>
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Faith-talk mailing list
>> > Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>> account info for
>> > Faith-talk:
>> >
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/lynnwhite51%40sbcglobal.net
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>> account info for Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/timber_wolf899%40yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>


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No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1779 - Release Date: 11/10/2008 
7:53 AM




From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Mon Nov 10 17:03:38 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 11:03:38 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Emailing: Last Days Ministries I'm Gay, O.K.
References: <35A03D458698454A84A02B53EB5728FC@Buster><0AE2D4A5152D4796862C6EFB2E88D3AE@nickf1758c2c9d><4383d01d0811091933w2fff5563r4b7dc4d58c5eb47c@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY113-DS3FC099D4F44C593F5BF96EB1A0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <DCCD55D7E0964132926200F4F9BEF977@your4dacd0ea75>

Do you frequent any Pentecostal churches of any kind?  You'd surely be 
exposed to that kind of thinking if you do.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Barbara Hammel" <poetlori8 at msn.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Emailing: Last Days Ministries I'm Gay, O.K.


> And where in the Bible does it say anything about blind people being bad?
> People just happened to be blind, God didn't say being blind was a sin.
> Barbara
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 9:33 PM
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Emailing: Last Days Ministries I'm Gay, O.K.
>
>> Come on!  I've said it enough.  Marriage isn't going to just be
>> "between ONE MAN and ONE WOMAN" enough these days.  Before you know
>> it, Christians will interpret the Bible as being of the able-bodied to
>> be perfect and capable of multiplyin and so on.  This is horrible!
>> Bet
>>
>> On 11/9/08, trising at sbcglobal.net <trising at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> That is an absolutely excellent article! All of us sin and fall short of
>>> the
>>> glory of God, whether we are gay or a gossip. Jesus loves all of us and
>>> came
>>> here to die in our place for our sins so we can go to heaven and be with
>>> him. We will not go there if we do not trust in Him alone as the 
>>> provider
>>> of
>>> our salvation. People who commit any sin, and that means all of us,
>>> deserve
>>> to be loved, but not to have our sin excused or minimized. It is God's
>>> design for marriage to be between one man and one woman. we as 
>>> Christians
>>> can stand up for what is right, while loving those caught in homosexual
>>> sin.
>>> Giving them special rights is wrong, but so is refusing to talk to them,
>>> or
>>> regarding them as someone God cannot save.
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1779 - Release Date: 11/10/2008 
7:53 AM




From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Mon Nov 10 17:06:51 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 11:06:51 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
References: <17B22BE1EC2F45149C8C36923C19FEB3@TheCooksPC><356348.90200.qm@web51909.mail.re2.yahoo.com><4383d01d0811091912k5b4dd09bud3bef5c09b3e90fb@mail.gmail.com><98D90F132DE0435A98DFE53D103F3590@lynnwhitePC>
	<94422655A2F645D08EA835596BC39625@TheCooksPC>
Message-ID: <A6CB448E436A455F898BF3826E360CC7@your4dacd0ea75>

Agreed.  Look up fornication and see what it says.  And if there is sex 
outside of marriage, the woman will always pay before the man does, 
President Clinton being the one public exception I've seen.  He complained 
that people disrespected his wife while she was running for President.  But 
who was the one to disrespect her first?  Him.  During the Democrat 
convention, the thing that struck me the funniest was when he was walking up 
to speak, they were playing "Chain of Fools."  When he finished his speech, 
what were they playing?  Robert Palmer's song, "Addicted to Love."  That was 
a hoot.  He was a good President, but even good Presidents can disgrace the 
country.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Corey Cook" <ccook01 at knology.net>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations


> All sex out side of marriage is a sin in the bible.
> The biggest sexual sin the church needs to deal with from with in side the
> church is premarital sex.
> And extra marital sex.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "BMW" <lynnwhite51 at sbcglobal.net>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>
>
>> Beth, sex outside of the relationship between a husband and wife is a 
>> sin.
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> To: <timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com>; "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith
>> and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 9:12 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>
>>
>>> Okay, if homosexuality is a sin, guess what?  What about the
>>> homosexuals who have homosexual relations with each other and cannot
>>> be attracted to opposite sex members?  I again may mention that I have
>>> friends who are gay/lesbian.  And I am pleased with Obama in the white
>>> house.  God knows what's best, and I believe in a God who loves all,
>>> and God knows that homosexuality is a sin, but it is a sin between
>>> those who can physically have someone of the opposite sex along with
>>> being attracted with someone of the opposite sex.  Take my
>>> ex-boyfriend for instance.  He likes women, but if he went to sleep
>>> with a young college friend of mine who I know is attracted to girls,
>>> THAT is a sin.  But if my friend who is lesbian went to sleep with the
>>> equally lesbian girlfriend, it is not a sin.  We must love everybody
>>> unconditionally, and we must not say that they are committing a sin
>>> unless they really are and have the brain chemicals made up so that
>>> they are attracted to someone of the opposite sex.  I am attracted to
>>> menh, so if I went to sleep with my college roommate, for instance,
>>> that would be a in in itself.  I am blind, and if I married a blind
>>> man, that would be fine.  But the way this country and the bible seems
>>> to be interpreted, homosexuality would be stomped out and next will be
>>> blindness.  Before we know it, our listservs will be in jeopardy, an
>>> then, we wouldn't be able to marry, write, read, go to college, and if
>>> the Terrorists get our country, and that is if Barack Obama's not
>>> watching over us, we will be wearing veils if we're female.  I for one
>>> do not want any ore arguments about homosexuality to ever pop up again
>>> on this listserv.  I want to play it straight: it may be a sin, but
>>> unfortunately, nobody understands the homosexual cannot be changed if
>>> they are truly homosexual.  I understand my friends, and they are good
>>> people.  They are going to college and they are going to be band and
>>> chorus teachers.  Do you people thin that these girls I'm friends with
>>> shouldn't be band and chorus teachers to young children because they
>>> are homosexuals?  According to the weird article I read, yes.  But I'd
>>> hire them any time.
>>> Anyway, that's my soap box for today.
>>> Beth
>>>
>>> On 11/9/08, Frank Lordi <timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> you are speakin gof the concept of 'blood guilt'?
>>>>
>>>> This so often brought grief to Isreal, no?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --- On Sun, 11/9/08, Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> From: Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>>> To: "Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 8:44 PM
>>>>> Homosexuality is sin.
>>>>> Read Romans 1
>>>>> read first Corinthians 6
>>>>> Yes we need to love them just as we love all sinners, but
>>>>> it is time to call it what it is, and that is sin!
>>>>> It is a sin that will be the end of this country if we
>>>>> allow it to be accepted and embraced.
>>>>> Not a popular thought, but a true one.
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Wheeler"
>>>>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
>>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and
>>>>> religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 6:29 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> > Never mind.  I keep telling you it is called a sin in
>>>>> the bible...if you don't want to believe that God calls
>>>>> it a sin, I can't say anything to sway you.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > +-+-+-
>>>>> >
>>>>> >   There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none
>>>>> beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
>>>>> > 1 Samuel 2:2
>>>>> > ~~~
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Alan D Wheeler
>>>>> > awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>>> > IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>>> > Skype: redwheel1
>>>>> > Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM
>>>>> eastern time at www.theqonline.net
>>>>> >
>>>>> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beth"
>>>>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>>> > To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and
>>>>> religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> > Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 2:41 PM
>>>>> > Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> We're talking about a country where not
>>>>> everybody believes in God.  We
>>>>> >> Christians are shoving God down the throats of
>>>>> those who don't know
>>>>> >> him.  We need to pray for the homosexuals and
>>>>> those who are
>>>>> >> experiencing a so-called sin ad we need to be
>>>>> nicer to these people
>>>>> >> for God's own sake.
>>>>> >> Beth
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler
>>>>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>> >>> At the same time, homosexuality is called a
>>>>> sin and abomination by God. So
>>>>> >>> you think we should allow people to continue
>>>>> to sin against God?
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> +-+-+-
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>    We know that all things work together for
>>>>> good for those who love God, to
>>>>> >>> those
>>>>> >>> who are called according to his purpose.
>>>>> >>>  Romans 8:28
>>>>> >>> ~~~
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> Alan D Wheeler
>>>>> >>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>>> >>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>>> >>> Skype: redwheel1
>>>>> >>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1
>>>>> PM eastern time at
>>>>> >>> www.theqonline.net
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> >>> From: "Beth"
>>>>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>>> >>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of
>>>>> faith and religion"
>>>>> >>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> >>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:44 AM
>>>>> >>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>> I would have toagree with Julie.  Marriage
>>>>> is about love, not
>>>>> >>>> procreative reasons only.  I've known
>>>>> friends who've gotten married as
>>>>> >>>> nonprocreative peoples.  Also, has anybody
>>>>> thought that marriage
>>>>> >>>> should at least be for those that can
>>>>> participate in it as well?
>>>>> >>>> Also, if we have bans on same-sex
>>>>> marriage, think of it this way: we
>>>>> >>>> are forcing religion on the people, which
>>>>> God really doesn't want us
>>>>> >>>> to do.  To be Christ-like is not to shove
>>>>> God down the throats of
>>>>> >>>> those who don't know him, but to
>>>>> spread God's love to them, to let
>>>>> >>>> them be free people.
>>>>> >>>> Beth
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler
>>>>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>> >>>>> Beth,
>>>>> >>>>> I gently disagree with you.  Marriage
>>>>> was designed by God to be between a
>>>>> >>>>> man and a woman.  Don't take issue
>>>>> because I said it.  Study the Bible
>>>>> >>>>> and
>>>>> >>>>> if you still don't like it, then
>>>>> you have to take it up with God.  It was
>>>>> >>>>> His idea to begin with, not man's.
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> +-+-+-
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>    The LORD is my strength and song,
>>>>> and he is become my salvation: he is
>>>>> >>>>> my
>>>>> >>>>> God, and I will prepare him an
>>>>> >>>>>  habitation; my father's God, and
>>>>> I will exalt him.
>>>>> >>>>>  Exodus 15:2
>>>>> >>>>> ~~~
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>>>> >>>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>>> >>>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>>> >>>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>>>> >>>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10
>>>>> AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>>>> >>>>> www.theqonline.net
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> >>>>> From: "Beth"
>>>>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>>> >>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the
>>>>> discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>> >>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 7:29
>>>>> AM
>>>>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False
>>>>> Accusations
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>> I don't care if Obama's
>>>>> half-black.  God's people will come to
>>>>> >>>>>> understand a few things:
>>>>> >>>>>> 1. Marriage, for example, is not
>>>>> between "one man and one woman".  It
>>>>> >>>>>> is between two able parties, same
>>>>> o different sex, that are actually
>>>>> >>>>>> willing to stay together.  Our
>>>>> high divorce rate of heterosexual
>>>>> >>>>>> couples mostly is bad for our
>>>>> children herein America.
>>>>> >>>>>> 2. Abortion should never happen.
>>>>> If it's something that has to do
>>>>> >>>>>> with the mother's life and
>>>>> health, then that's the only exception.
>>>>> >>>>>> But rape and birth control reasons
>>>>> are not good ones.
>>>>> >>>>>> 3. Blind people can and wwill have
>>>>> equal rights to vote, gain security
>>>>> >>>>>> benefits, and so on.  Yes,
>>>>> Obama's the most liberal, but we need him.
>>>>> >>>>>> Maybe he's a lot more
>>>>> Christian than Bush was.  But God's people must
>>>>> >>>>>> not be against him.  I'm a
>>>>> Catholic, and I'm also a liberal as well.
>>>>> >>>>>> Obama has also beat Kennedy by so
>>>>> many years.  ANything having to do
>>>>> >>>>>> with race is out as far as I'm
>>>>> concerned.  Next, what will happen when
>>>>> >>>>>> a woman is in the White House?
>>>>> What about a blind woman? lol
>>>>> >>>>>> Beth
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>> On 11/8/08, Linda Mentink
>>>>> <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Julie,
>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm sorry, too.  I'm
>>>>> not against our president elect because he's
>>>>> >>>>>>> black.  Fact is, he's half
>>>>> black.  That's neither here nor
>>>>> >>>>>>> there.  It's mainly
>>>>> because he's the most liberal of all in Congress,
>>>>> >>>>>>> and I believe that a lot of
>>>>> our rights will be taken away once he is
>>>>> >>>>>>> sworn in.  We'll see what
>>>>> happens, but I'm praying for him, and all
>>>>> >>>>>>> the rest in authority over us.
>>>>>  I sent those things to you because I
>>>>> >>>>>>> knew you wouldn't find out
>>>>> from the mainstream media.  But the
>>>>> >>>>>>> election has made history, and
>>>>> God's people need to be more vigilent
>>>>> >>>>>>> than
>>>>> >>>>>>> ever.
>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>> Blessings,
>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>> Linda
>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>> At 03:33 PM 11/8/2008, you
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> >>>>>>>> It happened by accident.
>>>>> When you didn't stop attacking in my
>>>>> >>>>>>>> in-box--those of you who
>>>>> did it--people of other races by way of our
>>>>> >>>>>>>> new President-elect, I
>>>>> wrote what I wrote.  Now you know how false
>>>>> >>>>>>>> accusations hurt
>>>>> everybody.  Because of one man the African-American
>>>>> >>>>>>>> Church, and people who
>>>>> attend them, have been under tremendous
>>>>> >>>>>>>> attack ever since last
>>>>> March with no let-up.  Ever since I began
>>>>> >>>>>>>> attending and became saved
>>>>> in African-American churches in 1972,
>>>>> >>>>>>>> I've heard dirty,
>>>>> dirty comments like:  "they just do in their
>>>>> >>>>>>>> church what they did in
>>>>> the slave days."  In the slave days,
>>>>> >>>>>>>> African-Americans
>>>>> weren't permitted to know anything of the Bible
>>>>> >>>>>>>> but "Servants obey
>>>>> your masters in the Lord for this is right.
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>> If people say what people
>>>>> have said about one another's churches
>>>>> >>>>>>>> ever since last March,
>>>>> referring to us as blind people, we'd be up
>>>>> >>>>>>>> in arms.  Let us all be
>>>>> more careful.
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>> It hit me like a
>>>>> thunderbolt while I was playing piano at a senior
>>>>> >>>>>>>> citizens building today
>>>>> why you all were upset.  And as upset as you
>>>>> >>>>>>>> were last Thursday night,
>>>>> Linda, I was that upset one month ago when
>>>>> >>>>>>>> I read what you
>>>>> particularly sent me privately at 5:00 on a Sunday
>>>>> >>>>>>>> morning while  I was
>>>>> getting ready for church.  I'm sorry and maybe
>>>>> >>>>>>>> we can understand one
>>>>> another better now.
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>  has been
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>> "Loyalty to petrified
>>>>> opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a
>>>>> >>>>>>>> human soul," American
>>>>> Humorist Mark Twain
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>> "An attack on one of
>>>>> us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth
>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jernigan, Immediate Past
>>>>> President, National Federation of the Blind
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>> "A brother offended
>>>>> is harder to be won than a strong city: and
>>>>> >>>>>>>> their contentions are like
>>>>> the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>> "Faith is the ability
>>>>> to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>> "No one can do it for
>>>>> us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push,
>>>>> >>>>>>>> 1976.
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>> "With proper
>>>>> training, development, and opportunity, blindness can
>>>>> >>>>>>>> be reduced to the level of
>>>>> a physical nuisance or characteristic,"
>>>>> >>>>>>>> the Late Dr. Kenneth
>>>>> Jernigan, Past President, National Federation
>>>>> >>>>>>>> of the Blind.
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>> Julie Vogt or
>>>>> jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> >>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change
>>>>> your list options or get your account info
>>>>> >>>>>>>> for Faith-talk:
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net
>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> >>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your
>>>>> list options or get your account info for
>>>>> >>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> >>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list
>>>>> options or get your account info for
>>>>> >>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> No virus found in this incoming
>>>>> message.
>>>>> >>>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>>> >>>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database:
>>>>> 270.9.0/1776 - Release Date: 11/8/2008
>>>>> >>>>> 6:49 PM
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> >>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list
>>>>> options or get your account info for
>>>>> >>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> >>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options
>>>>> or get your account info for
>>>>> >>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>> >>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>>> >>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database:
>>>>> 270.9.0/1778 - Release Date: 11/9/2008
>>>>> >>> 2:14 PM
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> >>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or
>>>>> get your account info for
>>>>> >>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> >> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> >>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get
>>>>> your account info for Faith-talk:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>> > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>>> > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1778 -
>>>>> Release Date: 11/9/2008 2:14 PM
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>> > Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> > Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> >
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>> account info for Faith-talk:
>>>>> >
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>>>>> >
>>>>> Corey Cook
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>> account info for Faith-talk:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/timber_wolf899%40yahoo.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/lynnwhite51%40sbcglobal.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>>
> Corey Cook
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>


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7:53 AM




From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Mon Nov 10 17:13:15 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 11:13:15 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] article 1
References: <5F3A84795F784BB39F938F35FB1FD13B@TheCooksPC><540AD6D7A71946E7A883D27649F2C41F@nickf1758c2c9d>
	<4383d01d0811092239n65ce4819jbbe399d2bc8f7b2e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7BA2EBD04E794D8DA0FDE7146088DA8F@your4dacd0ea75>

But if you're 80 and they pass a bill saying that marriage can only be done 
for procreative reasons, what are you going to do then?


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 12:39 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] article 1


> Forget it.  California already did this, and so did Florida on
> Proposition 2.  I'm done here.  This guy is speaking a bunch of tosh
> here.  Marriage is no longer just a breeding thing.  It's love as
> well.  I mean, if I were eighty years old and couldn't have kids,
> could I still marry?  Yes.  I can't breed, but I could still marry.
> Now, marriage then is not about breeding.  I don't see why his
> argument had to go overboard.  Gay marriage to me is a civil rights
> issue as much as it is for me a civil rights issue that we blind
> people get to vote on things like what was passed in California and
> Florida.
> Beth
>
> On 11/9/08, trising at sbcglobal.net <trising at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> Great article!
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>


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7:53 AM




From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Mon Nov 10 17:14:10 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 11:14:10 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] More about homosexuality.
References: <45DA65A746C4427D84681755CC35CB99@Alan><F8B2126C6A1C48A987B58AE8BEEA3DBF@TheCooksPC><4383d01d0811092234h5b26ed37w4822ffe53389de8f@mail.gmail.com>
	<2894E57C02CC4FAAA467693F0DABD048@TheCooksPC>
Message-ID: <AAEA18215A1E45D8BF2838BE1C167E21@your4dacd0ea75>

Please read John 9 1-4.  Jesus went up against that stereotype on the part 
of church leadership.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Corey Cook" <ccook01 at knology.net>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 1:12 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] More about homosexuality.


> No Beth,
> There are no verses speaking of Jesus hanging out with gays.
> However, he did say sin did not cause the man to be blind.
> Please don't read into scripture what is not there.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 1:34 AM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] More about homosexuality.
>
>
>> What about the verses that speak of the blind man being healed?  As I
>> said in a previous e-mail, what about Jesus hanging out with
>> homosexuals?  Did he do that?  Um, somebody open their inner eyes.
>> Beth
>>
>> On 11/9/08, Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net> wrote:
>>> This is an excellent read.
>>> I am going to post 4 articles here in a minute that bring some more 
>>> light
>>> to
>>> the issue.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Alan Wheeler" <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
>>> To: <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 1:53 PM
>>> Subject: [Faith-talk] More about homosexuality.
>>>
>>>
>>>>I went to www.biblegateway.com to see what I could find about
>>>>homosexuality
>>>>
>>>>and the bible.  This was among the resources.  So, again I say, and this
>>>>is
>>>>
>>>>my last comment on the subject, if you disagree that marriage is only 
>>>>for
>>>>men and women, then your argument is with God.  It's in His book.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.faithfacts.org/christ-and-the-culture/gay-rights#marriage
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sanctity of Marriage
>>>> In recent years, the homosexual movement has centered on giving
>>>> marriage-like benefits to gay couples. Many in the culture have
>>>> mistakenly
>>>>
>>>> concluded that marriage is merely an institution for the convenience of
>>>> adults. In actuality, marriage is the bedrock institution for culture 
>>>> to
>>>> sustain itself through having and nurturing children. There are
>>>> complementary aspects to a man and woman that are important to the
>>>> instutution of marriage which go beyond the obvious physical 
>>>> attributes.
>>>> There are things that a man needs that can only be provided by a woman,
>>>> and vice versa.
>>>>
>>>> These complementary aspects are important to the relationship of the
>>>> couple itself, as well as to the children. One does not have to appeal
>>>> to
>>>> religion to instinctively understand this. Yet statistics verify the
>>>> structure of the traditional family as the approach to raising children
>>>> that gives the best measurable results. The overwhelming body of social
>>>> science research agrees that children do best when raised in homes with
>>>> married, opposite-sex parents. Every child has the right to both a mom
>>>> and
>>>>
>>>> a dad.
>>>>
>>>> Yet we cannot divorce the institution of marriage from its theological
>>>> roots. We acknowledge that marriage is an institution given by God
>>>> (Genesis 2:24). The Creator of the Universe established the 
>>>> relationship
>>>> between a man and a woman, thus it is a divine institution, not a human
>>>> one. To confer marriage-like rights to gays is not the prerogative of
>>>> people (Matthew 19:6). (This includes civil unions or domestic
>>>> partnerships, as they are merely marriage by other names.) Defining
>>>> marriage is the prerogative of God. Whatever may tend to undermine the
>>>> institution of marriage would also undermine the authority of God, as
>>>> well
>>>>
>>>> as hurt society.
>>>>
>>>> Liberals may argue, "Why should we arbitrarily select only heterosexual
>>>> couples for marriage? What can it hurt if two homosexuals want to
>>>> marry?"
>>>> The answer is surprisingly simple. The institution of marriage between
>>>> and
>>>>
>>>> man a woman is not, in fact, arbitrary. It's purpose is clear and of
>>>> utmost importance to society.
>>>>
>>>> David Orland in an article entitled "The Deceit of Gay Marriage" puts 
>>>> it
>>>> very well. He says:
>>>>
>>>>  To justify giving privileges or exemptions or subsidies to some
>>>> particular group in society, the benefit of doing so for society at
>>>> large
>>>> must first be shown. With heterosexual marriage, the case is clear
>>>> enough.
>>>>
>>>> Heterosexual marriage is a matter of genuine social interest because 
>>>> the
>>>> family is essential to society's reproduction. The crux of my argument,
>>>> in
>>>>
>>>> other words, was that married couples receive the benefits they do, not
>>>> because the state is interested in promoting romantic love, or because
>>>> the
>>>>
>>>> Bible says so or because of the influence of special interest groups 
>>>> but
>>>> rather because the next generation is something that is and should be 
>>>> of
>>>> interest to all of us. And, by definition, this is not a case that can
>>>> be
>>>> made for homosexual unions. To that degree, the attempt to turn the
>>>> question of domestic partnership into a debate about fairness falls
>>>> flat.
>>>>
>>>>  The more persistent supporters of domestic partnership will of course
>>>> respond to this argument by pointing to the case in which homosexual
>>>> partners adopt children or, in the case of lesbians, undergo artificial
>>>> insemination. The intention here is to show that the nuclear family is
>>>> found even among homosexual couples and that, to that extent, 
>>>> homosexual
>>>> unions do indeed meet the same criterion of social interest as
>>>> heterosexual ones and thus should be granted legal status. It is a weak
>>>> argument and one that ultimately back-fires on those who employ it. 
>>>> This
>>>> is for two reasons:
>>>>
>>>>  First, adoption by homosexual couples is still exceedingly rare and 
>>>> the
>>>> law-though many are surprised to learn this-is aimed at the general
>>>> case.
>>>> To confer legal benefits on the entire class of would-be homosexual
>>>> spouses just because some very small minority of this class 
>>>> approximates
>>>> the pattern of the nuclear family would be a bit like admitting all
>>>> applicants to a select university on the grounds that a few of them had
>>>> been shown to meet the entrance requirements.
>>>>
>>>>  Second, the right of this small minority to the benefits of marriage 
>>>> is
>>>> dubious in the extreme. Homosexual "families" of whatever type are
>>>> always
>>>> and necessarily parasitic on heterosexual ones.
>>>>
>>>> Every child has the right to a mom and a dad. See 5 Reasons Why 
>>>> Same-Sex
>>>> Marriage Harms Children.
>>>>
>>>> But homosexuals not only want fair treatment, they are pushing for
>>>> "Super
>>>> Rights." According the Paul Cameron of the Family Research Institute:
>>>>
>>>>  "Every member of society has a duty to contribute to the commonwealth.
>>>> Yet the empirical evidence indicates that those who engage in
>>>> homosexuality 1) contribute less and cost more in goods and services, 
>>>> 2)
>>>> disproportionately disrupt social functioning, and 3) have few children
>>>> while being more apt to harm them. Thus, homosexual practioners not 
>>>> only
>>>> fail to 'pay for their keep,' but by their negative influence on
>>>> children,
>>>>
>>>> cloud society's future.
>>>>
>>>>  Those who engage in homosexuality seek what they say are 'gay rights."
>>>> In
>>>>
>>>> reality, they are demanding Super Rights. Super Rights are those
>>>> privileges that allow one to ovverride the inalienable rights of other
>>>> citizens, such as freedom of speech and association. These Super
>>>> Rights-which are conferred by 'non-discrimination,' 'hate crime,' and
>>>> 'hate speech' laws-allow homosexuals, if they so choose, to endanger or
>>>> punish those who would exercise their associational rights to avoid 
>>>> them
>>>> or protect their children from them.
>>>>
>>>>  As an example, empirical studies to date indicate that a male teacher
>>>> who
>>>>
>>>> practices homosexuality is the most likely kind of teacher to sexually
>>>> molest students. A principal knowing this may not want to hire a 
>>>> teacher
>>>> who declares his homosexual interests. But if that teacher wants the
>>>> job,
>>>> his Super Rights trump the associational rights of the principal as 
>>>> well
>>>> as the right of students not to experience extra risk (especially since
>>>> safety is part of their right to life). Parents renting out one side of
>>>> their duplex may not want to place their children at risk by renting to
>>>> a
>>>> gay couple. But if-even on a whim - the homosexuals want the duplex,
>>>> their
>>>>
>>>> Super Rights trump the property and associational rights of the parents
>>>> as
>>>>
>>>> well as their children's right not to be exposed to potential
>>>> molestation.
>>>>
>>>>  The Super Rights of homosexual practitioners also squelch the right of
>>>> others to freedom of speech. If a broadcaster opines that homosexual 
>>>> sex
>>>> is dangerous, but a homosexual finds such speech 'offensive,' his Super
>>>> Rights trump the broadcaster's freedom of speech and the broadcaster 
>>>> may
>>>> be fined or imprisoned."
>>>>
>>>> The concept of hate crimes seems particularly reprehensible. If one of
>>>> your (heterosexual) loved ones is the object of a despicable crime, the
>>>> perpetrator would receive a lesser punishment than someone who 
>>>> committed
>>>> the same act against someone who practices homosexual sex!
>>>>
>>>> +-+-+-
>>>>
>>>>   He has made clear to you, O man, what is good; and what is desired
>>>> from
>>>> you by the Lord; only doing what is
>>>> right, and loving mercy, and walking without pride before your God.
>>>> Micah
>>>> 6:8
>>>> ~~~
>>>>
>>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>>> www.theqonline.net
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>>>>
>>> Corey Cook
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>>
> Corey Cook
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>


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7:53 AM




From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Mon Nov 10 17:16:25 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 11:16:25 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] More about homosexuality.
References: <45DA65A746C4427D84681755CC35CB99@Alan><4383d01d0811091253x2afd9cffu8fc0dcd74995a54d@mail.gmail.com>
	<7101768EB7DD43B9A2C0654D707C1C14@stefan706c912c>
Message-ID: <56A1E498E95C41749F5B4FC67EF50E00@your4dacd0ea75>

I have seen several churches that have their own denominational Bible with 
what their denomination's interpretations are.  The Catholics aren't alone 
in this.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Stefan Slucki" <sslucki at chariot.net.au>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 12:35 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] More about homosexuality.


> Dear list,
>
> I believe what Alan has quoted about the phenomenon of homosexuality is
> correct and not extreme. We must proclaim the truth in a loving and 
> gracious
> way; we must agitate for laws that reflect God's Laws and these kind of 
> laws
> would be agreed to by Jews and Muslims as well who submit themselves to an
> objective, external authority.
>
> There are a number of statements in Beth's response to Alan about God 
> Loving
> everybody, about lesbians being as good if not better care-givers than
> heterosexual couples which I won't comment on:
> what I believe we must do is have a unity on submitting/embracing what 
> God's
> Word clearly teaches.
>
> Rome declined because the drive of sex, in particular homosexual sex 
> became
> overwhelming.
>
> I certainly agree that we must examine our cultural understanding of what
> Scripture is thought to say e.g. about women wearing "man's clothing".
>
> For instance, I believe it is most Scriptural to drink fermented wine and
> eat unleavened bread at the Lord's Table but the know-it-better churches
> (many of them) have decreed differently and so we eat wholemeal and cheap
> grape-juice!  My point is that the Christian (however counter-cultural we
> may appear) must be conscience-bound to the Scriptures and to have God's
> Will done on earth as in heaven and ain't no sodomite gonna make it to
> heaven -- unless they repent and forsake their filthy, degrading and
> Onan-like practices.
>
> Stefan Slucki.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>


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From mentink at frontiernet.net  Mon Nov 10 17:44:50 2008
From: mentink at frontiernet.net (Linda Mentink)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 11:44:50 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] article 1
In-Reply-To: <7BA2EBD04E794D8DA0FDE7146088DA8F@your4dacd0ea75>
References: <5F3A84795F784BB39F938F35FB1FD13B@TheCooksPC>
	<540AD6D7A71946E7A883D27649F2C41F@nickf1758c2c9d>
	<4383d01d0811092239n65ce4819jbbe399d2bc8f7b2e@mail.gmail.com>
	<7BA2EBD04E794D8DA0FDE7146088DA8F@your4dacd0ea75>
Message-ID: <20081110174451.64F191A02D1@relay03.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>

I haven't heard anything about anyone saying that marriage can only 
be done for procreative purpose.  I don't believe that will happen 
any time soon, so go ahead and continue your relationship.

At 11:13 AM 11/10/2008, you wrote:
>But if you're 80 and they pass a bill saying that marriage can only 
>be done for procreative reasons, what are you going to do then?
>
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
><faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 12:39 AM
>Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] article 1
>
>
>>Forget it.  California already did this, and so did Florida on
>>Proposition 2.  I'm done here.  This guy is speaking a bunch of tosh
>>here.  Marriage is no longer just a breeding thing.  It's love as
>>well.  I mean, if I were eighty years old and couldn't have kids,
>>could I still marry?  Yes.  I can't breed, but I could still marry.
>>Now, marriage then is not about breeding.  I don't see why his
>>argument had to go overboard.  Gay marriage to me is a civil rights
>>issue as much as it is for me a civil rights issue that we blind
>>people get to vote on things like what was passed in California and
>>Florida.
>>Beth
>>
>>On 11/9/08, trising at sbcglobal.net <trising at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>Great article!
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Faith-talk mailing list
>>>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>Faith-talk:
>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Faith-talk mailing list
>>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>for Faith-talk:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
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>Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
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>11/10/2008 7:53 AM
>
>
>_______________________________________________
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From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Mon Nov 10 19:13:06 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 14:13:06 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] article 1
In-Reply-To: <20081110174451.64F191A02D1@relay03.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
References: <5F3A84795F784BB39F938F35FB1FD13B@TheCooksPC>
	<540AD6D7A71946E7A883D27649F2C41F@nickf1758c2c9d>
	<4383d01d0811092239n65ce4819jbbe399d2bc8f7b2e@mail.gmail.com>
	<7BA2EBD04E794D8DA0FDE7146088DA8F@your4dacd0ea75>
	<20081110174451.64F191A02D1@relay03.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811101113p617eee88nbaebd245bf4ad5db@mail.gmail.com>

What's that got to do with homosexual marriage, Julie?  Please explain.
Beth

On 11/10/08, Linda Mentink <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
> I haven't heard anything about anyone saying that marriage can only
> be done for procreative purpose.  I don't believe that will happen
> any time soon, so go ahead and continue your relationship.
>
> At 11:13 AM 11/10/2008, you wrote:
>>But if you're 80 and they pass a bill saying that marriage can only
>>be done for procreative reasons, what are you going to do then?
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>><faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 12:39 AM
>>Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] article 1
>>
>>
>>>Forget it.  California already did this, and so did Florida on
>>>Proposition 2.  I'm done here.  This guy is speaking a bunch of tosh
>>>here.  Marriage is no longer just a breeding thing.  It's love as
>>>well.  I mean, if I were eighty years old and couldn't have kids,
>>>could I still marry?  Yes.  I can't breed, but I could still marry.
>>>Now, marriage then is not about breeding.  I don't see why his
>>>argument had to go overboard.  Gay marriage to me is a civil rights
>>>issue as much as it is for me a civil rights issue that we blind
>>>people get to vote on things like what was passed in California and
>>>Florida.
>>>Beth
>>>
>>>On 11/9/08, trising at sbcglobal.net <trising at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>Great article!
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>Faith-talk:
>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Faith-talk mailing list
>>>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>for Faith-talk:
>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>>
>>
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1779 - Release Date:
>>11/10/2008 7:53 AM
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Faith-talk mailing list
>>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
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>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
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>



From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Mon Nov 10 19:16:23 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 14:16:23 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] FW: [BlindMen4Christ] A Brighter Tomorrow
In-Reply-To: <AE7E5EE5424B4281ADDA54E4A906CBB4@Buster>
References: <AE7E5EE5424B4281ADDA54E4A906CBB4@Buster>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811101116g5aea1f81r1318698ee2116475@mail.gmail.com>

Interesting article about believing and being free.
Beth

On 11/10/08, WESLEY BURDEN <wesley.burden at verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindmen4christ-bounces at morales-family.lljfm.net
> [mailto:blindmen4christ-bounces at morales-family.lljfm.net] On Behalf Of Stu
> (by way of Curtis Delzer <curtis at calweb.com>)
> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 11:26 AM
> To: Blind men for Christ
> Subject: [BlindMen4Christ] A Brighter Tomorrow
>
> SHACKLED BY MAN...SET FREE BY GOD
>
> "And when they had laid many stripes upon them, they cast them into prison,
> charging the jailer to keep them safely ... And suddenly there was a great
> earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken: and
> immediately all the doors were opened, and everyone's bands were loosed."
> Acts 16:23,26
>
> The believer has the joy of knowing that his life is "hid in Christ."
> He has the choice of living day by day with confidence in the ONE who orders
> his steps and will direct him in the paths of righteousness for HIS name's
> sake. There are no circumstances in his life that have not first passed
> through the permissive will of God, and are formed in the providence of His
> plan and purpose.
>
> In the life of a believer, who is committed and loyal to God, there is no
> such thing as chance or luck. God often brings us into circumstances that we
> do not understand, among people that we do not know, into places we have
> never been that we may trust him in these strange encounters, and bring them
> before Him in unwavering faith, that the Holy Spirit may work to glorify God
> through it all. God does not ask us to understand these circumstances, but
> to trust Him in them, and see His mighty power being manifested in ways
> beyond our finite resources.
>
> Such encounters challenge the depth of our faith which must be tried before
> the reality of faith is actual. God brings these circumstances into our
> lives for many reasons. One that is foremost is to turn our "head faith"
> into a personal possession. In this, we get constant opposition from Satan
> himself.
> It is not a fight sometimes, but always. But God has a purpose in these
> trying circumstances. He wants to show us that the nature of faith is to
> make its object real. Faith is the whole man rightly related to God, that
> activates an unwavering trust in Him, in whatever circumstance he finds
> himself by the power of the Holy Spirit. God wants the focus of our faith to
> be centered in Him, regardless of the measure of our circumstances, large or
> small. The smallest detail in which we follow in simple obedience and
> child-like faith has all the omnipotent power of the grace of God behind it.
>
> Paul and Silas had just seen God's power manifested through them, in casting
> out the evil spirit that possessed a young girl. They were falsely accused,
> stripped, beaten, unjustly thrown into prison, and their feet bound fast to
> the stocks. This was the unjust reaction of ungodly men, shackled by man.
> What a scene! They had every human right to complain, cry out for justice,
> and plead for mercy. Their eyes were not fixed upon their circumstances, for
> they knew God was in control, and in His providential care, permitted this
> encounter to reach one man, the jailer...and then, his whole family.
>
> Look at the scene. Paul and Silas were a pitifully beaten sight of humanity,
> and what was their response? "At midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang
> praises to God, and the prisoners heard them." Can you imagine what went
> through the minds of these prisoners as they heard Paul and Silas pray and
> praise God in word and song? But then, we see them set free by God. "The
> earthquake shook the prison, the doors opened, and everyone's bands were
> loosed." We may not be responsible for the circumstances we are in, but we
> are responsible for the way we allow those circumstances to affect us: we
> can either allow them to defeat us, or we can allow them to transform us
> into what God wants us to be. Paul said, "And in all these things we are
> more than conquerors through Him that loved us" (Romans 8:37). God has
> promised an overcoming spirit to all who will dare to trust Him! "But thanks
> be unto God, who always leads us in triumphal procession in Christ and
> through us spreads everywhere the fragrance of the knowledge of Him."
> Shackled by man...set free by God!
>
>
> Stu
> <mailto:K5stu at sbcglobal.net>K5stu at sbcglobal.net
> Reading your Bible today will help prepare you for A Brighter Tomorrow!
> _______________________________________________
> BlindMen4Christ mailing list
> BlindMen4Christ at morales-family.lljfm.net
> http://morales-family.lljfm.net/mailman/listinfo/blindmen4christ_morales-fam
> ily.lljfm.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
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>



From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Mon Nov 10 19:21:08 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 14:21:08 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
In-Reply-To: <A6CB448E436A455F898BF3826E360CC7@your4dacd0ea75>
References: <17B22BE1EC2F45149C8C36923C19FEB3@TheCooksPC>
	<356348.90200.qm@web51909.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<4383d01d0811091912k5b4dd09bud3bef5c09b3e90fb@mail.gmail.com>
	<98D90F132DE0435A98DFE53D103F3590@lynnwhitePC>
	<94422655A2F645D08EA835596BC39625@TheCooksPC>
	<A6CB448E436A455F898BF3826E360CC7@your4dacd0ea75>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811101121y447cc926m7385f18304bd76a@mail.gmail.com>

Yes.  Thanks, Bill.  Because of you, Hilary is not going to be in the
White House.lol
Beth

On 11/10/08, Julie C. Vogt <jcvogt at pressenter.com> wrote:
> Agreed.  Look up fornication and see what it says.  And if there is sex
> outside of marriage, the woman will always pay before the man does,
> President Clinton being the one public exception I've seen.  He complained
> that people disrespected his wife while she was running for President.  But
> who was the one to disrespect her first?  Him.  During the Democrat
> convention, the thing that struck me the funniest was when he was walking up
> to speak, they were playing "Chain of Fools."  When he finished his speech,
> what were they playing?  Robert Palmer's song, "Addicted to Love."  That was
> a hoot.  He was a good President, but even good Presidents can disgrace the
> country.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Corey Cook" <ccook01 at knology.net>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:50 PM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>
>
>> All sex out side of marriage is a sin in the bible.
>> The biggest sexual sin the church needs to deal with from with in side the
>> church is premarital sex.
>> And extra marital sex.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "BMW" <lynnwhite51 at sbcglobal.net>
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:49 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>
>>
>>> Beth, sex outside of the relationship between a husband and wife is a
>>> sin.
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>> To: <timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com>; "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith
>>> and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 9:12 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>
>>>
>>>> Okay, if homosexuality is a sin, guess what?  What about the
>>>> homosexuals who have homosexual relations with each other and cannot
>>>> be attracted to opposite sex members?  I again may mention that I have
>>>> friends who are gay/lesbian.  And I am pleased with Obama in the white
>>>> house.  God knows what's best, and I believe in a God who loves all,
>>>> and God knows that homosexuality is a sin, but it is a sin between
>>>> those who can physically have someone of the opposite sex along with
>>>> being attracted with someone of the opposite sex.  Take my
>>>> ex-boyfriend for instance.  He likes women, but if he went to sleep
>>>> with a young college friend of mine who I know is attracted to girls,
>>>> THAT is a sin.  But if my friend who is lesbian went to sleep with the
>>>> equally lesbian girlfriend, it is not a sin.  We must love everybody
>>>> unconditionally, and we must not say that they are committing a sin
>>>> unless they really are and have the brain chemicals made up so that
>>>> they are attracted to someone of the opposite sex.  I am attracted to
>>>> menh, so if I went to sleep with my college roommate, for instance,
>>>> that would be a in in itself.  I am blind, and if I married a blind
>>>> man, that would be fine.  But the way this country and the bible seems
>>>> to be interpreted, homosexuality would be stomped out and next will be
>>>> blindness.  Before we know it, our listservs will be in jeopardy, an
>>>> then, we wouldn't be able to marry, write, read, go to college, and if
>>>> the Terrorists get our country, and that is if Barack Obama's not
>>>> watching over us, we will be wearing veils if we're female.  I for one
>>>> do not want any ore arguments about homosexuality to ever pop up again
>>>> on this listserv.  I want to play it straight: it may be a sin, but
>>>> unfortunately, nobody understands the homosexual cannot be changed if
>>>> they are truly homosexual.  I understand my friends, and they are good
>>>> people.  They are going to college and they are going to be band and
>>>> chorus teachers.  Do you people thin that these girls I'm friends with
>>>> shouldn't be band and chorus teachers to young children because they
>>>> are homosexuals?  According to the weird article I read, yes.  But I'd
>>>> hire them any time.
>>>> Anyway, that's my soap box for today.
>>>> Beth
>>>>
>>>> On 11/9/08, Frank Lordi <timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>> you are speakin gof the concept of 'blood guilt'?
>>>>>
>>>>> This so often brought grief to Isreal, no?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --- On Sun, 11/9/08, Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> From: Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>>>> To: "Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 8:44 PM
>>>>>> Homosexuality is sin.
>>>>>> Read Romans 1
>>>>>> read first Corinthians 6
>>>>>> Yes we need to love them just as we love all sinners, but
>>>>>> it is time to call it what it is, and that is sin!
>>>>>> It is a sin that will be the end of this country if we
>>>>>> allow it to be accepted and embraced.
>>>>>> Not a popular thought, but a true one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Wheeler"
>>>>>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
>>>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and
>>>>>> religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 6:29 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > Never mind.  I keep telling you it is called a sin in
>>>>>> the bible...if you don't want to believe that God calls
>>>>>> it a sin, I can't say anything to sway you.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > +-+-+-
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >   There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none
>>>>>> beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
>>>>>> > 1 Samuel 2:2
>>>>>> > ~~~
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Alan D Wheeler
>>>>>> > awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>>>> > IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>>>> > Skype: redwheel1
>>>>>> > Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM
>>>>>> eastern time at www.theqonline.net
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beth"
>>>>>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>>>> > To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and
>>>>>> religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> > Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 2:41 PM
>>>>>> > Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >> We're talking about a country where not
>>>>>> everybody believes in God.  We
>>>>>> >> Christians are shoving God down the throats of
>>>>>> those who don't know
>>>>>> >> him.  We need to pray for the homosexuals and
>>>>>> those who are
>>>>>> >> experiencing a so-called sin ad we need to be
>>>>>> nicer to these people
>>>>>> >> for God's own sake.
>>>>>> >> Beth
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler
>>>>>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>>> >>> At the same time, homosexuality is called a
>>>>>> sin and abomination by God. So
>>>>>> >>> you think we should allow people to continue
>>>>>> to sin against God?
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> +-+-+-
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>    We know that all things work together for
>>>>>> good for those who love God, to
>>>>>> >>> those
>>>>>> >>> who are called according to his purpose.
>>>>>> >>>  Romans 8:28
>>>>>> >>> ~~~
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> Alan D Wheeler
>>>>>> >>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>>>> >>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>>>> >>> Skype: redwheel1
>>>>>> >>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1
>>>>>> PM eastern time at
>>>>>> >>> www.theqonline.net
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> >>> From: "Beth"
>>>>>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>>>> >>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of
>>>>>> faith and religion"
>>>>>> >>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> >>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:44 AM
>>>>>> >>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>> I would have toagree with Julie.  Marriage
>>>>>> is about love, not
>>>>>> >>>> procreative reasons only.  I've known
>>>>>> friends who've gotten married as
>>>>>> >>>> nonprocreative peoples.  Also, has anybody
>>>>>> thought that marriage
>>>>>> >>>> should at least be for those that can
>>>>>> participate in it as well?
>>>>>> >>>> Also, if we have bans on same-sex
>>>>>> marriage, think of it this way: we
>>>>>> >>>> are forcing religion on the people, which
>>>>>> God really doesn't want us
>>>>>> >>>> to do.  To be Christ-like is not to shove
>>>>>> God down the throats of
>>>>>> >>>> those who don't know him, but to
>>>>>> spread God's love to them, to let
>>>>>> >>>> them be free people.
>>>>>> >>>> Beth
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler
>>>>>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>>> >>>>> Beth,
>>>>>> >>>>> I gently disagree with you.  Marriage
>>>>>> was designed by God to be between a
>>>>>> >>>>> man and a woman.  Don't take issue
>>>>>> because I said it.  Study the Bible
>>>>>> >>>>> and
>>>>>> >>>>> if you still don't like it, then
>>>>>> you have to take it up with God.  It was
>>>>>> >>>>> His idea to begin with, not man's.
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> +-+-+-
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>    The LORD is my strength and song,
>>>>>> and he is become my salvation: he is
>>>>>> >>>>> my
>>>>>> >>>>> God, and I will prepare him an
>>>>>> >>>>>  habitation; my father's God, and
>>>>>> I will exalt him.
>>>>>> >>>>>  Exodus 15:2
>>>>>> >>>>> ~~~
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>>>>> >>>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>>>> >>>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>>>> >>>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>>>>> >>>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10
>>>>>> AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>>>>> >>>>> www.theqonline.net
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> >>>>> From: "Beth"
>>>>>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>>>> >>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the
>>>>>> discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>>> >>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 7:29
>>>>>> AM
>>>>>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False
>>>>>> Accusations
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>> I don't care if Obama's
>>>>>> half-black.  God's people will come to
>>>>>> >>>>>> understand a few things:
>>>>>> >>>>>> 1. Marriage, for example, is not
>>>>>> between "one man and one woman".  It
>>>>>> >>>>>> is between two able parties, same
>>>>>> o different sex, that are actually
>>>>>> >>>>>> willing to stay together.  Our
>>>>>> high divorce rate of heterosexual
>>>>>> >>>>>> couples mostly is bad for our
>>>>>> children herein America.
>>>>>> >>>>>> 2. Abortion should never happen.
>>>>>> If it's something that has to do
>>>>>> >>>>>> with the mother's life and
>>>>>> health, then that's the only exception.
>>>>>> >>>>>> But rape and birth control reasons
>>>>>> are not good ones.
>>>>>> >>>>>> 3. Blind people can and wwill have
>>>>>> equal rights to vote, gain security
>>>>>> >>>>>> benefits, and so on.  Yes,
>>>>>> Obama's the most liberal, but we need him.
>>>>>> >>>>>> Maybe he's a lot more
>>>>>> Christian than Bush was.  But God's people must
>>>>>> >>>>>> not be against him.  I'm a
>>>>>> Catholic, and I'm also a liberal as well.
>>>>>> >>>>>> Obama has also beat Kennedy by so
>>>>>> many years.  ANything having to do
>>>>>> >>>>>> with race is out as far as I'm
>>>>>> concerned.  Next, what will happen when
>>>>>> >>>>>> a woman is in the White House?
>>>>>> What about a blind woman? lol
>>>>>> >>>>>> Beth
>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>> On 11/8/08, Linda Mentink
>>>>>> <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Julie,
>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm sorry, too.  I'm
>>>>>> not against our president elect because he's
>>>>>> >>>>>>> black.  Fact is, he's half
>>>>>> black.  That's neither here nor
>>>>>> >>>>>>> there.  It's mainly
>>>>>> because he's the most liberal of all in Congress,
>>>>>> >>>>>>> and I believe that a lot of
>>>>>> our rights will be taken away once he is
>>>>>> >>>>>>> sworn in.  We'll see what
>>>>>> happens, but I'm praying for him, and all
>>>>>> >>>>>>> the rest in authority over us.
>>>>>>  I sent those things to you because I
>>>>>> >>>>>>> knew you wouldn't find out
>>>>>> from the mainstream media.  But the
>>>>>> >>>>>>> election has made history, and
>>>>>> God's people need to be more vigilent
>>>>>> >>>>>>> than
>>>>>> >>>>>>> ever.
>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>> Blessings,
>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>> Linda
>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>> At 03:33 PM 11/8/2008, you
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It happened by accident.
>>>>>> When you didn't stop attacking in my
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> in-box--those of you who
>>>>>> did it--people of other races by way of our
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> new President-elect, I
>>>>>> wrote what I wrote.  Now you know how false
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> accusations hurt
>>>>>> everybody.  Because of one man the African-American
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Church, and people who
>>>>>> attend them, have been under tremendous
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> attack ever since last
>>>>>> March with no let-up.  Ever since I began
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> attending and became saved
>>>>>> in African-American churches in 1972,
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I've heard dirty,
>>>>>> dirty comments like:  "they just do in their
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> church what they did in
>>>>>> the slave days."  In the slave days,
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> African-Americans
>>>>>> weren't permitted to know anything of the Bible
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> but "Servants obey
>>>>>> your masters in the Lord for this is right.
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If people say what people
>>>>>> have said about one another's churches
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ever since last March,
>>>>>> referring to us as blind people, we'd be up
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> in arms.  Let us all be
>>>>>> more careful.
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It hit me like a
>>>>>> thunderbolt while I was playing piano at a senior
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> citizens building today
>>>>>> why you all were upset.  And as upset as you
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> were last Thursday night,
>>>>>> Linda, I was that upset one month ago when
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I read what you
>>>>>> particularly sent me privately at 5:00 on a Sunday
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> morning while  I was
>>>>>> getting ready for church.  I'm sorry and maybe
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> we can understand one
>>>>>> another better now.
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>  has been
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "Loyalty to petrified
>>>>>> opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> human soul," American
>>>>>> Humorist Mark Twain
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "An attack on one of
>>>>>> us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jernigan, Immediate Past
>>>>>> President, National Federation of the Blind
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "A brother offended
>>>>>> is harder to be won than a strong city: and
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> their contentions are like
>>>>>> the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "Faith is the ability
>>>>>> to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "No one can do it for
>>>>>> us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push,
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 1976.
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "With proper
>>>>>> training, development, and opportunity, blindness can
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> be reduced to the level of
>>>>>> a physical nuisance or characteristic,"
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> the Late Dr. Kenneth
>>>>>> Jernigan, Past President, National Federation
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> of the Blind.
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Julie Vogt or
>>>>>> jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change
>>>>>> your list options or get your account info
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> for Faith-talk:
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net
>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> >>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> >>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your
>>>>>> list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> >>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> >>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> >>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list
>>>>>> options or get your account info for
>>>>>> >>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> No virus found in this incoming
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>>>>>> >>>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>>>> >>>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database:
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>>>>>> >>>>> 6:49 PM
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> >>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> >>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>> >>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> >>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> >>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options
>>>>>> or get your account info for
>>>>>> >>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>>> >>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>>>> >>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database:
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>>>>>> >>> 2:14 PM
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> >>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> >>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or
>>>>>> get your account info for
>>>>>> >>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> >> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> >> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get
>>>>>> your account info for Faith-talk:
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>>> > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>>>> > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1778 -
>>>>>> Release Date: 11/9/2008 2:14 PM
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>> > Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> > Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>> account info for Faith-talk:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> Corey Cook
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>> account info for Faith-talk:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/timber_wolf899%40yahoo.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/lynnwhite51%40sbcglobal.net
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>>>
>> Corey Cook
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
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>>
>
>
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>
>
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> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
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> 7:53 AM
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From mentink at frontiernet.net  Mon Nov 10 19:22:11 2008
From: mentink at frontiernet.net (Linda Mentink)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 13:22:11 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Point of View
Message-ID: <20081110192212.1E500AC991@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>

Beth, right now I'm listening to a radio program called Point of 
View.  Messages don't seem to go through too quickly here, so the 
program will probably be over when this comes to you.  But you can 
listen or watch the archive at pointofview.net.

Blessings,

Linda




From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Mon Nov 10 19:25:41 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 14:25:41 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Did Jesus Heal Homosexuals?
In-Reply-To: <BAY113-DS41F22A261B47244BBF623EB1A0@phx.gbl>
References: <35A03D458698454A84A02B53EB5728FC@Buster>
	<0AE2D4A5152D4796862C6EFB2E88D3AE@nickf1758c2c9d>
	<4383d01d0811091933w2fff5563r4b7dc4d58c5eb47c@mail.gmail.com>
	<005d01c942ec$28333750$5c85fe04@rjige047kjawst>
	<4383d01d0811092230p556cf25bk342c1ae7d2a0e47b@mail.gmail.com>
	<9A311BBAB5BA41DEA003B08E23EAC3D0@Alan>
	<4383d01d0811100438u38051b45u8acd9f6e117fb710@mail.gmail.com>
	<000b01c9433f$0cc53060$5b9ef44c@IBMB7D6F383D44>
	<4383d01d0811100707l2fc337c0kcee32061db492c2e@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY113-DS41F22A261B47244BBF623EB1A0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811101125i40ee22date914809008068b49@mail.gmail.com>

Barbara, you're right.  Everet, you wrote the list.  Thanks, guys.
Beth

On 11/10/08, Barbara Hammel <poetlori8 at msn.com> wrote:
> And there again, you have the flaw of the human nature.  Satan wishes for us
> to hate each other and have no compassion.  The world has a difficult time
> understanding the difference between who a person is and how they choose to
> act.
> Barbara
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 9:07 AM
> To: "Everett Gavel" <EverettG at successfuladaptations.com>; "Faith-talk,for
> the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Did Jesus Heal Homosexuals?
>
>> Okay, Everet.  That what you said is true.  But let me point out aht
>> homosexuals and people with AIDS are being persecuted daily for their
>> "sin" and their disease.  People with AIDS, homosexual or not, need
>> healing and prayers.
>> Beth
>>
>> On 11/10/08, Everett Gavel <everettg at successfuladaptations.com> wrote:
>>> Hello Beth, and all,
>>>
>>> I've tried to stay out of this.  It does not help
>>> anyone learn, if they feel ganged-up on.  But with
>>> respect, Beth, I share one point in all this:
>>>
>>> Jesus both lived and preached the word, God's truth,
>>> daily.  Did He "heal" sinners?  Not of their sin, no.
>>> And homosexuality - just as is lying, fornication,
>>> adultery, murder - are all sins.  What He did do was
>>> share God's Truth with them, and some it changed, yes.
>>> And others it drove away.  But God did not physically
>>> "heal" anyone of homosexuality, because it is a sin,
>>> not a disability that needs "healing."  It is not of
>>> the same ilk as leprosy, or some disease, or some
>>> physical disability.  It is sin, plain and simple.
>>> Just as is lying, adultery, murder, etc. The Holy
>>> Bible - God's inspired word (2 Tim 3:16 - "All
>>> scripture is God-breathed...") says this constantly,
>>> consistently, throughout the 66 books that comprise the
>>> Bible.
>>>
>>> Jesus did not heal from sin.  He did, however,
>>> constantly warn against the consequences of it, for the
>>> unrepentant heart.
>>>
>>> So, though many of us who try our best each day to live
>>> the way Jesus tells us to, often go about it poorly, it
>>> is our command, it is our life, to try to help others
>>> understand when and if they're purposely living in sin.
>>> We will be hated by some for speaking the truth--as was
>>> Jesus.  No matter, it is the task given all those who
>>> come to know and grasp the beauty that is Jesus Christ.
>>>
>>> Though ultimately I leave it up to God of course, it
>>> seems "logical" to me that one cannot know Jesus truly,
>>> and continue living in daily sin.  Though one may make
>>> poor choices and fall back to their old ways at times,
>>> to do so willingly and continuously is not living for
>>> Jesus Christ.  And though many call themselves
>>> Christians while sinning, willingly, on a continuing
>>> basis, Jesus said that many will call Him, "Lord,
>>> Lord," but on the day of Judgement, He will say He
>>> never knew them.  To be a Christian is to follow
>>> Christ.  To follow Christ means to pay attention to
>>> what He actually says in His word, the Holy Bible. And
>>> the Bible says not to give in to the urges or
>>> temptation of homosexuality, as it is a sin.
>>>
>>> Anyway, in summary, no, Jesus did not heal homosexuals
>>> of their homosexuality.  It is not a disability or
>>> disease that needs physical healing.  It is a sin, as
>>> are several other things that Jesus warns against
>>> numerous times in His word, the Bible.
>>>
>>>
>>> Strive On--for the Truth,
>>> And for the Truth--We Need to Read Scripture Ourselves
>>> Instead of Listening to Others,
>>> Everett
>>> www.biblegateway.com (Hint, Hint)  ;-)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> Okay.  So Jesus loved and healed people with
>>>> disabilities, but why
>>>> didn't he heal the homosexuals?  The Bible was
>>>> written in ancient
>>>> times.  We have to take the Bible seriously here.
>>>> Jesus never seems
>>>> to have healed homosexuals.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>



From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Mon Nov 10 19:28:08 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 14:28:08 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Discussion
In-Reply-To: <20081110141553.3A2AE19820A@relay02.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
References: <20081110141553.3A2AE19820A@relay02.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811101128i53360bb4h92d2ee18bbe69f95@mail.gmail.com>

Okay.  Sure.  I don't mind moving on.  Sorry if perhaps Penny left the
list because of what we were all talking about.
Beth

On 11/10/08, Linda Mentink <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
> OK, now I'm writing as both a list member and the moderator.
>
> I woke up this morning before I usually get up for school, so I
> turned on the computer.  I wanted to get a couple things from there
> before I leave.
>
> I have not had time to read the messages from this list, but was
> surprised to have so many come into my in box.  One was from Penny,
> who has left this list.  She didn't say why, but I know.  This
> discussion about homosexuality has gone on way too long, and is not
> accomplishing anything for the edification of the list members.  Beth
> will not be convinced because she is steadfast in her beliefs.  If
> she is to understand God's Word, she needs to sit down and read it in
> its entirety, and she will need the Holy Spirit to help her to
> understand some of it.  But that's neithere here nor there.  She is
> not open to such reading and accepting of God's Holy Scriptures, so
> we are casting our pearls before swine, as the Bible says.
>
> She loves her friends, and that's as it should be.  There was
> recently a case in Virginia and Vermont where a Lesbyan couple
> separated.  One had a child through artificial insemination.  She
> accepted Christ, and wanted out.  She took her biological daughter
> with her, and moved to Virginia.  The other woman is trying to get
> full custody of the child.  I have left out a lot of the story
> because I don't have time to write it all.  I don't type fast
> enough!  Anyway, the child is now six, and is a Christian.  She went
> to visit this other woman, whom she hasn't seen in almost two years,
> forced by the courts.  This woman told her to call her Mommy, and
> said that she has two momies.  The child told her what God says about
> that, and she was told to forget all that.  This woman wants full
> custody of a child she didn't carry, and the whole thing is just
> sick.  There was a hearing at the end of October, but I didn't hear
> the results.  This makes me angry, and I'm sure there are more cases
> like it.  So, let's pray for those in this lifestyle, but don't
> condone the sin.  They won't listen to us unless they ask us about
> it, so let's not try to convince them of something they don't want to
> hear.  They are ungodly, and God has given them, and this nation,
> over to their and our lusts.
>
> Please, people, let's move on!  Thanks.
>
> Linda
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>



From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Mon Nov 10 19:29:29 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 14:29:29 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] did Jesus heal homosexuals?
In-Reply-To: <BAY133-DAV45A625000DC5B5B1860A9901A0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY133-DAV45A625000DC5B5B1860A9901A0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811101129x3074b38fr1924556fcdb520ac@mail.gmail.com>

Yes.  Many people were stoned to death.  I dn't think Christians are
necessarily mean-spirited unless we have that "give me your money or
you'll burn in Hell" attitude if you know what I mean.
Beth

On 11/10/08, Pat Gormley <kk3f at msn.com> wrote:
> There's probably no account in the Bible of Jesus healing homosexuals
> because according to levitical tradition they would have been stoned to
> death and you think we as Christians are mean spirited.
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>



From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Mon Nov 10 19:33:44 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 14:33:44 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] article4
In-Reply-To: <CA806F3FC5E84788AD2DF9E24BE8ADC8@Alan>
References: <A44FB971A6D54B02A2851B7A742AFEF7@TheCooksPC>
	<4383d01d0811092245p1a08f350wb42da0902dd5648f@mail.gmail.com>
	<22E98B071846410D8928ED3BF84C74D5@Alan>
	<4383d01d0811100442r7d0b8a1x5ffc42265df8e3ad@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA806F3FC5E84788AD2DF9E24BE8ADC8@Alan>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811101133m7720c5f8u7563708640f9a473@mail.gmail.com>

ROTFL about the Jesus going to Mars thing.  Next thing you know, the
cyantology people will say that. lol
Beth

On 11/10/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
> Okay, but I can believe that Jesus went to mars, and firmly choose to keep
> that belief even though the Bible says nothing about Jesus going to mars.
> So, in the end, it's foolish of me to cling to the belief that Jesus went to
> mars if the Bible says nothing about Jesus going to mars.
>
> Now, with issues like unwed teen mothers, the Bible may not directly answer
> that, but it's not intended to.  Anyone want to help me out here?  There is
> more I should say, but feel unsure as to what.
>
>
>
> +-+-+-
>
>    There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is
> there any rock like our God.
>  1 Samuel 2:2
> ~~~
>
> Alan D Wheeler
> awheeler at neb.rr.com
> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
> Skype: redwheel1
> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
> www.theqonline.net
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 6:42 AM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] article4
>
>
>> You're right.  I want to believe what I want to believe, and it
>> doesn't matter what God's book has to say about it.  I mean, the book
>> says a lot about women and their place in society, and the book
>> doesn't say anything about us females being consecrated.  But the book
>> leaves us hanging as far as what to do with unwed teen mothers, which
>> there are a lot of.  You've obviously seen my "new school prayer"
>> post.
>> Beth
>>
>> On 11/10/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>> Well, you just summed it up for me.  You want to believe what you want to
>>> believe, what God says doesn't matter in the end.  Am I right?
>>>
>>>
>>> +-+-+-
>>>
>>>    There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither
>>> is
>>> there any rock like our God.
>>>  1 Samuel 2:2
>>> ~~~
>>>
>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>> www.theqonline.net
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 12:45 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] article4
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hah.  This is the only article worth reading to me.  Both sides in the
>>>> case are right, but I believe I have a right to take the side I'm on
>>>> because I don't like to see people get hurt and see them be
>>>> discriminated against and placed below the normals, the sighted folks,
>>>> the able-bodied, and the normal-thinkers.
>>>> Beth
>>>>
>>>> On 11/9/08, Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net> wrote:
>>>>> What's Really at Stake in the Gay Marriage Debate? Part 4
>>>>> Albert Mohler
>>>>> President, Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
>>>>>
>>>>> October 27, 2008
>>>>>
>>>>> Writing more than twenty years ago, Thomas Sowell described the basic
>>>>> worldview clash we observe today as a struggle between "constrained"
>>>>> and
>>>>> "unconstrained" visions of humanity.  The fundamental distinction
>>>>> between
>>>>> these two visions is moral, but the thrust of each is ideological.  The
>>>>> constrained vision may be considered basically conservative, while the
>>>>> unconstrained vision is basically liberal, in modern terms.
>>>>>
>>>>> There is great wisdom in Sowell's analysis, and in his book, The
>>>>> Conflict
>>>>> of
>>>>> Visions. But the greatest achievement of this book is Sowell's
>>>>> insistence
>>>>> that political struggles have ideological origins.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is certainly true with reference to the political struggle over
>>>>> same-sex marriage.  In California, the controversy is over "Proposition
>>>>> 8"
>>>>> on the November ballot -- a measure that would amend the state's
>>>>> constitution to establish marriage as the union of a man and a woman.
>>>>> Voters in Arizona and Florida will face measures that would disallow
>>>>> same-sex marriages.
>>>>>
>>>>> Nationwide, we face efforts to repeal the Defense of Marriage Act (a
>>>>> repeal
>>>>> championed by Sen. Barack Obama) and to achieve same-sex marriage
>>>>> through
>>>>> the courts.  State by state, the issue is constantly reshaped and
>>>>> reframed.
>>>>>
>>>>> At the same time, there is a sense that the public is shifting its
>>>>> perception of the issue.  When the issue is framed as simple fairness,
>>>>> Americans increasingly seem to tire of arguing that sexual behavior or
>>>>> orientation (at least in terms of homosexuality) should matter when it
>>>>> comes
>>>>> to the basic rights associated with marriage.  This trend is especially
>>>>> noticeable among the young.  Younger Americans, by and large, see
>>>>> homosexuality as part of the recognizable landscape and within the
>>>>> normal
>>>>> range of human behaviors.
>>>>>
>>>>> All this represents a massive shift in perception over a relatively
>>>>> short
>>>>> period of time.  The activists promoting the normalization of
>>>>> homosexuality
>>>>> have been tremendously successful in their efforts.  The mainstream
>>>>> media,
>>>>> the educational elites, and various culture shapers have pushed this
>>>>> cause.
>>>>> Today, on the average college or university campus, homosexuality is
>>>>> not
>>>>> considered to be a major moral issue.  Any discrimination against
>>>>> homosexuals, on the other hand, is considered a moral issue of urgency
>>>>> and
>>>>> outrage.  In much of the culture, it is considered increasingly immoral
>>>>> to
>>>>> assert that homosexuality is immoral.
>>>>>
>>>>> There is no real ground for compromise between these two visions and
>>>>> perspectives.  Both sides frame their argument in moral terms.
>>>>> Advocates
>>>>> of
>>>>> the constrained vision argue that humanity is heterosexual by default
>>>>> and
>>>>> design and that homosexuality is thus an aberration to be sanctioned
>>>>> and
>>>>> discouraged.  Advocates of the unconstrained vision argue that
>>>>> homosexuality
>>>>> is just one among several acceptable options for humanity.
>>>>>
>>>>> This framework for analysis helps to explain why the two opposing sides
>>>>> in
>>>>> this controversy see the issue in such starkly different terms.
>>>>>
>>>>> Those opposed to same-sex marriage see marriage as an essentially
>>>>> heterosexual institution that is fundamental to human happiness and the
>>>>> well-being of civilization.  Those who support same-sex marriage see
>>>>> limiting marriage to heterosexuals as a way of exercising patriarchal
>>>>> oppression against sexual minorities.  Marriage is seen, therefore, as
>>>>> an
>>>>> obstacle to human happiness and autonomy that must be either destroyed
>>>>> or
>>>>> radically revised.  The quest for this radical revision is seen as an
>>>>> act
>>>>> of
>>>>> human liberation.  To the conservative, this is a mortal blow directed
>>>>> at
>>>>> the very heart of the culture.
>>>>>
>>>>> Moral conservatives see homosexual behaviors as matters of grave moral
>>>>> concern.  Moral liberals and libertarians see homosexuality as no more
>>>>> morally significant than the color of one's eyes.  It's just part of
>>>>> what
>>>>> makes some people who they are.
>>>>>
>>>>> Adding credence to Sowell's argument, a person's position on same-sex
>>>>> marriage is a very good predictor of positions held on other issues as
>>>>> well.
>>>>>  Careful observers know that this is no coincidence.  A cadre of
>>>>> liberal
>>>>> Hollywood celebrities supports same-sex marriage as what they call a
>>>>> civil
>>>>> rights issue and recently held fundraisers that produced millions of
>>>>> dollars
>>>>> to defeat Proposition 8.  Meanwhile, opposition to same-sex marriage is
>>>>> most
>>>>> discernable among conservative Christians and other conservative groups
>>>>> like
>>>>> the Mormons.
>>>>>
>>>>> The middle ground is fast disappearing, even as arguments based in a
>>>>> framework of natural law seem to carry no public force.  This leaves
>>>>> conservative Christians -- evangelicals in the main -- as the bulwark
>>>>> of
>>>>> opposition to same-sex marriage.  For evangelicals, the question is
>>>>> always a
>>>>> question of what the Bible teaches, and the Bible straightforwardly
>>>>> presents
>>>>> homosexual behaviors as immoral and sinful -- and in stark terms.
>>>>>
>>>>> Believers committed to biblical authority will find no way to avoid
>>>>> this
>>>>> controversy, and no ground for accepting the "fairness" argument.  If
>>>>> the
>>>>> Bible is the revealed Word of God, then we know that homosexuality is a
>>>>> sin
>>>>> of great spiritual consequence.  Those who reject the authority of the
>>>>> Bible
>>>>> will, in the end, likely come to accept some argument for the
>>>>> normalization
>>>>> of homosexuality and homosexual relationships.
>>>>>
>>>>> Despite their massive and contentious collision over this great
>>>>> question,
>>>>> the two opposing sides in this controversy are agreed on one major
>>>>> point
>>>>> --
>>>>> the importance of the issue.  Both sides believe that the victory of
>>>>> their
>>>>> position on this issue is a precondition for true human happiness and
>>>>> human
>>>>> thriving.  And, truth be known, both sides see the other camp as a
>>>>> threat
>>>>> to
>>>>> human happiness and well-being.
>>>>>
>>>>> To a significant degree, these opposing camps define almost all of
>>>>> reality
>>>>> in starkly different terms.  Both sides bring energy and passion to the
>>>>> public square.  Both sides see the controversy as a battle for the
>>>>> future
>>>>> of
>>>>> civilization.
>>>>>
>>>>> On that point, at least, both sides are right.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Find this article at:
>>>>> http://www.crosswalk.com/news/commentary/11583981/
>>>>>
>>>>> Corey Cook
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
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>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
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>
>
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>
>
>
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> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
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>



From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Mon Nov 10 19:34:51 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 14:34:51 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] new school prayer
In-Reply-To: <3976623164E544E0AD2BE11F4214421D@TheCooksPC>
References: <4383d01d0811092216q59181091yc699696d88694561@mail.gmail.com>
	<3976623164E544E0AD2BE11F4214421D@TheCooksPC>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811101134m22b7765age7064c4a36c71590@mail.gmail.com>

We seem to have turned against God from the very beginning.  But I
think we probably overreacted to the George III decrees in England way
back when.
Beth

On 11/10/08, Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net> wrote:
> Interesting.
> Goes back to how we as a nation have turned against God.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 1:16 AM
> Subject: [Faith-talk] new school prayer
>
>
>> Take a look at this, guys.  My close friend sent me this one.
>>
>>> >> A kid in Arizona wrote the attached
>>> >>
>>> >> NEW School prayer :
>>> >>
>>> >> Now I sit me down in school
>>> >> Where praying is against the rule
>>> >> For this great nation under God
>>> >> Finds mention of Him very odd.
>>> >> If Scripture now the class recites,
>>> >> It violates the Bill of Rights.
>>> >> And anytime my head I bow
>>> >> Becomes a Federal matter now.
>>> >> Our hair can be purple, orange or green,
>>> >> That's no offense; it's a freedom scene.
>>> >> The law is specific, the law is precise.
>>> >> Prayers spoken aloud are a serious vice.
>>> >> For praying in a public hall
>>> >> Might offend someone with no faith at all.
>>> >> In silence alone we must meditate,
>>> >> God's name is prohibited by the state.
>>> >> We're allowed to cuss and dress like freaks,
>>> >> And pierce our noses, tongues and cheeks..
>>> >> They've outlawed guns, but FIRST the Bible.
>>> >> To quote the Good Book makes me liable.
>>> >> We can elect a pregnant Senior Queen,
>>> >> And the 'unwed daddy,' our Senior King.
>>> >> It's 'inappropriate' to teach right from wrong,
>>> >> We're taught that such 'judgments' do not belong.
>>> >> We can get our condoms and birth controls,
>>> >> Study witchcraft, vampires and totem poles.
>>> >> But the Ten Commandments are not allowed,
>>> >> No word of God must reach this crowd.
>>> >> It's scary here I must confess,
>>> >> When chaos reigns the school's a mess.
>>> >> So, Lord, this silent plea I make:
>>> >> Should I be shot; My soul please take!
>>> >> Amen
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>>
> Corey Cook
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>



From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Mon Nov 10 19:36:07 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 14:36:07 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] article3
In-Reply-To: <1F49C863A1FC40AB9CABCEE62FC03CB8@TheCooksPC>
References: <FA1BA1E983C54480AE9F643BB19848D6@TheCooksPC>
	<4383d01d0811092233m4af5ab95sf71ed04b3fc45619@mail.gmail.com>
	<1F49C863A1FC40AB9CABCEE62FC03CB8@TheCooksPC>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811101136h442a7e9bg846addbce7db251c@mail.gmail.com>

Okay.  YOu're right.
Beth

On 11/10/08, Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net> wrote:
> Nothing is wrong with him.
> He is showing the truth
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 1:33 AM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] article3
>
>
>> How dramatifc.  We can still use those dead words--husband, wife,
>> boyfriend, girlfriend--but we can add new ones.  What's wrong wit the
>> man here?
>> Beth
>>
>> On 11/9/08, Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net> wrote:
>>> What's Really at Stake in the Gay Marriage Debate? Part 3
>>> Albert Mohler
>>> President, Southern Bapist Theological Seminary
>>>
>>> October 24, 2008
>>>
>>> "We're talking about really refraining from using things like,
>>> husband-wife,
>>> boyfriend-girlfriend, those kind of things, and just say 'partner,'"
>>> explains Robin Sinks.  She is the health education specialist for the
>>> Long
>>> Beach Unified School District in California.  The point she was making is
>>> clear enough.  The legalization of same-sex marriage will require a
>>> comprehensive change in our language.
>>>
>>> Language is, as we now know, integral to a culture.  In fact,
>>> anthropologists such as the influential Clifford Geertz refer to human
>>> culture as a "cultural-lingustic system."  The language and the culture
>>> are
>>> inseparable.  Each influences the other, and together they produce an
>>> entire
>>> system of meaning.
>>>
>>> Until now, at least, words like "husband" and "wife" have been essential
>>> to
>>> understanding our culture.  Some words have been inseparable, forming
>>> comprehensive sets of meaning together.  "Marriage" goes with "husband"
>>> and
>>> "wife."  "Boyfriend" goes with "girlfriend."
>>>
>>> With the legalization of same-sex marriage, the only acceptable word is
>>> "partner."  Marriage licenses will speak of the union of "Partner A" with
>>> "Partner B."  There will be no use for terms such as "wife" or "husband."
>>>
>>> Robin Sinks made her statement with reference to what the normalization
>>> of
>>> same-sex marriage would mean for the public schools.  As MSNBC reports,
>>> the
>>> battle over same-sex marriage will reach the schools.
>>>
>>> "The opposing sides have debated what, if anything, schools must teach
>>> about
>>> marriage now that gays have the right to wed," the network explains.
>>>
>>> California mandates that schools teach about marriage, if the schools
>>> teach
>>> sex education.  Surprisingly perhaps, the vast majority of California
>>> school
>>> districts do not teach sex education.  Nevertheless, one state judge
>>> recently ruled that the districts "may require" such courses.
>>>
>>> California is "ground zero" on this issue because the state's voters will
>>> face "Proposition 8" on the November 4 ballot.  This proposition, if
>>> approved by voters, would amend the California constitution to limit
>>> marriage to the union of a man and a woman.  The measure is an effort to
>>> reverse last May's decision by the California Supreme Court to legalize
>>> same-sex marriage.
>>>
>>> Given the state's huge population and cultural influence, all eyes are
>>> now
>>> on California.  But so should be our ears.  Do we hear a shift in the
>>> language coming?  If so, the language will change far more than
>>> vocabulary
>>> and word usage.
>>>
>>> Civilizations are built on careful and necessary distinctions.  As an
>>> institution, marriage has been defined throughout history as a
>>> heterosexual
>>> union.  Marriage is so central to our civilization that its related words
>>> have become equally essential.  Words like "husband" and "wife" have been
>>> necessary to understanding our stories, our laws, our families, our
>>> social
>>> arrangements, and our aspirations.  Transform marriage into a homosexual
>>> institution, and the vocabulary no longer works.
>>>
>>> The effects of this linguistic transformation are most acute among the
>>> young.  Language acquisition is among the most essential tasks of
>>> childhood
>>> -- and this includes everything from early babbling to vocabulary lists
>>> at
>>> school.
>>>
>>> When children acquire a language without the words "husband" or "wife,"
>>> they
>>> acquire a cultural knowledge that betrays the subversion of the central
>>> institution of civilization itself.  "Partner" is just not enough to
>>> carry
>>> the meaning of marriage.  Will "husband" and "wife" soon be relegated to
>>> the
>>> dust-bin of obsolete words?  If so, the loss will leave us speechless.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In addition to being one of Salem's nationally syndicated radio talk show
>>> hosts, R. Albert Mohler, Jr. is the president of The Southern Baptist
>>> Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky and recognized as one of
>>> America's leading theologians and cultural commentators. Contact Dr.
>>> Mohler
>>> at mail at albertmohler.com.
>>>
>>> Find this article at: http://www.crosswalk.com/news/commentary/11583380/
>>>
>>> Corey Cook
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>>
> Corey Cook
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>



From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Mon Nov 10 19:38:47 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 14:38:47 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] New School Prayer
In-Reply-To: <20081110151541.EDF581A022F@relay03.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
References: <20081110151541.EDF581A022F@relay03.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811101138k20302c90m6cce59379867d0fa@mail.gmail.com>

Interesting.  If that prayer isn't new, then why is it on the net now?
 I thought this might be a good faith topic to discuss.
Beth

On 11/10/08, Linda Mentink <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
> Beth and all,
>
> That prayer is not new.  It's been around a long time, and is just
> circulating on the internet again.  I've seen it many times before.
>
> Blessings,
>
> Linda
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>



From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Mon Nov 10 20:46:35 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 14:46:35 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] false accusations
References: <BAY133-DAV7C5DF97F6C797B9A3FAA2901B0@phx.gbl><3DE6C8F59A0A4C4E902D8D50D4BF8043@TheCooksPC><4383d01d0811091914k3751b511h4f7af9209ce59288@mail.gmail.com><BAY113-DS3C6688C327278D0DB7291EB1A0@phx.gbl>
	<4383d01d0811092210n35adc1edv5522f0d9cf8b8ebe@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2DDA64F3B701475391D0E08E34266B7A@your4dacd0ea75>

She knows what she's talking about here.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 12:10 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] false accusations


> That's not always true.  We, European Americans, brought down the
> Native Americans by way of diseases, uncleanliness, and ethnic
> cleansing so to speak.  We called it God's being on our side.  Right?
> The Roman and Greek cvilizations did partake in homosexuality, but the
> Native Americans were very peaceable people, and look what Juan Ponce
> de Leon, da Gama, and many other Spanish, English, French, Dutch, and
> Portuguese explorers did to this continent before it was the United
> States of America!
> Beth
>
> On 11/10/08, Barbara Hammel <poetlori8 at msn.com> wrote:
>> And it's this lack of caring about what's gone on before that has led to 
>> the
>> fall of every civilization that has reinvented the abhorances the Bible
>> speaks of.
>> Barbara
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 9:14 PM
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] false accusations
>>
>>> Okay, okay.  I just said it already.  I don't care about your surveys,
>>> your statistics and data.  It just sounds like a bunch of warped
>>> knowledge to me.
>>> Beth
>>>
>>> On 11/9/08, Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net> wrote:
>>>> Well put Pat.
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Pat Gormley" <kk3f at msn.com>
>>>> To: <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 6:09 PM
>>>> Subject: [Faith-talk] false accusations
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> People that favor same sex unions tend not to be very good students of
>>>>> history.  Ancient Greece and Rome both experienced similar breakdowns 
>>>>> in
>>>>> society as their civilizations.  You also need to look at actuarial 
>>>>> data
>>>>> and those tables indicate that those who engage in alternative
>>>>> lifestyles
>>>>> tend to live 10 to 15 years less than a similarly in tact married
>>>>> couple.
>>>>> I agree with Alan Wheeler in that we hate the sin  but not the sinner.
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>>>>>
>>>> Corey Cook
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>


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7:53 AM




From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Mon Nov 10 20:50:19 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 14:50:19 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] new school prayer
References: <4383d01d0811092216q59181091yc699696d88694561@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C1026197C6DA41A485CB4BE58DC3AE99@your4dacd0ea75>

Well, you know what they always taught African-American children in the 
church?  If they don't see your head bowed, your knees bent, and you lips 
move, you can pray in school all you want to.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 12:16 AM
Subject: [Faith-talk] new school prayer


> Take a look at this, guys.  My close friend sent me this one.
>
>> >> A kid in Arizona wrote the attached
>> >>
>> >> NEW School prayer :
>> >>
>> >> Now I sit me down in school
>> >> Where praying is against the rule
>> >> For this great nation under God
>> >> Finds mention of Him very odd.
>> >> If Scripture now the class recites,
>> >> It violates the Bill of Rights.
>> >> And anytime my head I bow
>> >> Becomes a Federal matter now.
>> >> Our hair can be purple, orange or green,
>> >> That's no offense; it's a freedom scene.
>> >> The law is specific, the law is precise.
>> >> Prayers spoken aloud are a serious vice.
>> >> For praying in a public hall
>> >> Might offend someone with no faith at all.
>> >> In silence alone we must meditate,
>> >> God's name is prohibited by the state.
>> >> We're allowed to cuss and dress like freaks,
>> >> And pierce our noses, tongues and cheeks..
>> >> They've outlawed guns, but FIRST the Bible.
>> >> To quote the Good Book makes me liable.
>> >> We can elect a pregnant Senior Queen,
>> >> And the 'unwed daddy,' our Senior King.
>> >> It's 'inappropriate' to teach right from wrong,
>> >> We're taught that such 'judgments' do not belong.
>> >> We can get our condoms and birth controls,
>> >> Study witchcraft, vampires and totem poles.
>> >> But the Ten Commandments are not allowed,
>> >> No word of God must reach this crowd.
>> >> It's scary here I must confess,
>> >> When chaos reigns the school's a mess.
>> >> So, Lord, this silent plea I make:
>> >> Should I be shot; My soul please take!
>> >> Amen
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>


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Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1779 - Release Date: 11/10/2008 
7:53 AM




From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Mon Nov 10 21:04:28 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 15:04:28 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] More about homosexuality.
References: <45DA65A746C4427D84681755CC35CB99@Alan><4383d01d0811091253x2afd9cffu8fc0dcd74995a54d@mail.gmail.com><31C23822BE7246E2A07426880ABA96D4@lynnwhitePC><63A3EFD1C0EF4E9787C2EFA87034453E@TheCooksPC><6776FAA89EFF4D258D27EBD02570A75A@Alan>
	<4383d01d0811100448u306e751ra0f68ebb04c822a7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C613B03CFF8541E2BE01635FDC8830F8@your4dacd0ea75>

It can be healed.  I know a homosexual man who confessed his sin and 
received Christ and has been married for a good 30 years now.  He and his 
wife live in Seattle and I remember when I played for their wedding when 
they got married.  If you have had a "sex change" operation of some kind, 
it's going to still physically be a reminder to you and others, but God does 
change a heart, just like a heart of a murderer or those in rebellion or 
anything else.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 6:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] More about homosexuality.


> That's weird.  I know that St. Paul preaches against group sex and
> other kinds of weird forms of sex acts, but Jesus not hanging out with
> or healing homosexuals is just odd.  If homosexuality is seen as a sin
> in the Bible, why isn't it clearly stated that it can be healed?  Both
> Protestants and Conservative Catholics feel this way, but I don't
> think that the homosexual attractions my friends experiece can be
> healed.
> Beth
>
> On 11/10/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>> Yes, and that by grace we are saved.  God's grace is truly amazing, isn't
>> it?
>>
>>
>> +-+-+-
>>
>>    There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither 
>> is
>> there any rock like our God.
>>  1 Samuel 2:2
>> ~~~
>>
>> Alan D Wheeler
>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>> Skype: redwheel1
>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>> www.theqonline.net
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Corey Cook" <ccook01 at knology.net>
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:51 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] More about homosexuality.
>>
>>
>>> The great part is Paul says that that was what we were before we were
>>> forgiven.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "BMW" <lynnwhite51 at sbcglobal.net>
>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:21 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] More about homosexuality.
>>>
>>>
>>>> well, Beth, your view goes against the old and new Testament.  Nobody 
>>>> is
>>>> being a bigot or anything like that.
>>>>
>>>> What do you do with the verses that speak against adultery, 
>>>> drunkardness,
>>>>
>>>> slanderers, fornicators?  Paul says that all of have fit into one of
>>>> these
>>>> categories before we were forgiven.
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 2:53 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] More about homosexuality.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Allan, this article is severely biased and is hurtful to homosexual
>>>>> friends of mine.  Thank God they didn't read this.  To be honest, I
>>>>> love my friends, all my friends heterosexual and homosexual.  Every
>>>>> kid has the right to two loving parents, but not necessarily a mom and
>>>>> a dad.  Gay couples and lesbian couples are still adoptable couples.
>>>>> I've seen a lesbian couple that adopted two Cree First Nations
>>>>> children.  I saw a gay couple adopt special needs twins who had
>>>>> addiction problems.  This country needs to be more progressive and
>>>>> stop attacking homosexuals because they are homosexuals.  Before you
>>>>> know it, Allan, this country will put blind and visually impaired
>>>>> people as well as cognitively disabled people in their places: along
>>>>> with the homosexuals, below sighted and heterosexual people.  Before
>>>>> you know it, Allan, African Americans will be kicked out of office and
>>>>> there will be an assassination attempt on Barack Obama, who I hope
>>>>> will reign for eight long and healthy years.  Please watch what you're
>>>>> saying!  We're all Christians on this list!  Can't we accept others'
>>>>> beliefs and opinions here?  I'm not trying to be psychic and prophetic
>>>>> here, but please understand that I am very concerned that this nation
>>>>> is going to fall down like Rome did and we won't have a very healthy
>>>>> end if you know what I mean.  And not everybody believes in God.  And
>>>>> God loves everybody, and even though it is written that homosexuality
>>>>> is a sin, attacking homosexuals who are not atracted and refuse to be
>>>>> attracted to the opposite sex is wrong.  We cannot an will not attack
>>>>> others because they are a different brand of homo sapiens sapiens.
>>>>> Beth
>>>>>
>>>>> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>>> I went to www.biblegateway.com to see what I could find about
>>>>>> homosexuality
>>>>>> and the bible.  This was among the resources.  So, again I say, and
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> my last comment on the subject, if you disagree that marriage is only
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> men and women, then your argument is with God.  It's in His book.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.faithfacts.org/christ-and-the-culture/gay-rights#marriage
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Sanctity of Marriage
>>>>>> In recent years, the homosexual movement has centered on giving
>>>>>> marriage-like benefits to gay couples. Many in the culture have
>>>>>> mistakenly
>>>>>> concluded that marriage is merely an institution for the convenience 
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> adults. In actuality, marriage is the bedrock institution for culture
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> sustain itself through having and nurturing children. There are
>>>>>> complementary aspects to a man and woman that are important to the
>>>>>> instutution of marriage which go beyond the obvious physical
>>>>>> attributes.
>>>>>> There are things that a man needs that can only be provided by a 
>>>>>> woman,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> vice versa.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> These complementary aspects are important to the relationship of the
>>>>>> couple
>>>>>> itself, as well as to the children. One does not have to appeal to
>>>>>> religion
>>>>>> to instinctively understand this. Yet statistics verify the structure
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> traditional family as the approach to raising children that gives the
>>>>>> best
>>>>>> measurable results. The overwhelming body of social science research
>>>>>> agrees
>>>>>> that children do best when raised in homes with married, opposite-sex
>>>>>> parents. Every child has the right to both a mom and a dad.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yet we cannot divorce the institution of marriage from its 
>>>>>> theological
>>>>>> roots. We acknowledge that marriage is an institution given by God
>>>>>> (Genesis
>>>>>> 2:24). The Creator of the Universe established the relationship 
>>>>>> between
>>>>>>
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> man and a woman, thus it is a divine institution, not a human one. To
>>>>>> confer
>>>>>> marriage-like rights to gays is not the prerogative of people 
>>>>>> (Matthew
>>>>>> 19:6). (This includes civil unions or domestic partnerships, as they
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> merely marriage by other names.) Defining marriage is the prerogative
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> God. Whatever may tend to undermine the institution of marriage would
>>>>>> also
>>>>>> undermine the authority of God, as well as hurt society.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Liberals may argue, "Why should we arbitrarily select only 
>>>>>> heterosexual
>>>>>> couples for marriage? What can it hurt if two homosexuals want to
>>>>>> marry?"
>>>>>> The answer is surprisingly simple. The institution of marriage 
>>>>>> between
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> man a woman is not, in fact, arbitrary. It's purpose is clear and of
>>>>>> utmost
>>>>>> importance to society.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> David Orland in an article entitled "The Deceit of Gay Marriage" puts
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> very well. He says:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   To justify giving privileges or exemptions or subsidies to some
>>>>>> particular
>>>>>> group in society, the benefit of doing so for society at large must
>>>>>> first be
>>>>>> shown. With heterosexual marriage, the case is clear enough.
>>>>>> Heterosexual
>>>>>> marriage is a matter of genuine social interest because the family is
>>>>>> essential to society's reproduction. The crux of my argument, in 
>>>>>> other
>>>>>> words, was that married couples receive the benefits they do, not
>>>>>> because
>>>>>> the state is interested in promoting romantic love, or because the
>>>>>> Bible
>>>>>> says so or because of the influence of special interest groups but
>>>>>> rather
>>>>>> because the next generation is something that is and should be of
>>>>>> interest
>>>>>> to all of us. And, by definition, this is not a case that can be made
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> homosexual unions. To that degree, the attempt to turn the question 
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> domestic partnership into a debate about fairness falls flat.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   The more persistent supporters of domestic partnership will of 
>>>>>> course
>>>>>> respond to this argument by pointing to the case in which homosexual
>>>>>> partners adopt children or, in the case of lesbians, undergo 
>>>>>> artificial
>>>>>> insemination. The intention here is to show that the nuclear family 
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> found
>>>>>> even among homosexual couples and that, to that extent, homosexual
>>>>>> unions do
>>>>>> indeed meet the same criterion of social interest as heterosexual 
>>>>>> ones
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> thus should be granted legal status. It is a weak argument and one 
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> ultimately back-fires on those who employ it. This is for two 
>>>>>> reasons:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   First, adoption by homosexual couples is still exceedingly rare and
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> law-though many are surprised to learn this-is aimed at the general
>>>>>> case. To
>>>>>> confer legal benefits on the entire class of would-be homosexual
>>>>>> spouses
>>>>>> just because some very small minority of this class approximates the
>>>>>> pattern
>>>>>> of the nuclear family would be a bit like admitting all applicants to 
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> select university on the grounds that a few of them had been shown to
>>>>>> meet
>>>>>> the entrance requirements.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   Second, the right of this small minority to the benefits of 
>>>>>> marriage
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> dubious in the extreme. Homosexual "families" of whatever type are
>>>>>> always
>>>>>> and necessarily parasitic on heterosexual ones.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Every child has the right to a mom and a dad. See 5 Reasons Why
>>>>>> Same-Sex
>>>>>> Marriage Harms Children.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But homosexuals not only want fair treatment, they are pushing for
>>>>>> "Super
>>>>>> Rights." According the Paul Cameron of the Family Research Institute:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   "Every member of society has a duty to contribute to the
>>>>>> commonwealth.
>>>>>> Yet
>>>>>> the empirical evidence indicates that those who engage in 
>>>>>> homosexuality
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1)
>>>>>> contribute less and cost more in goods and services, 2)
>>>>>> disproportionately
>>>>>> disrupt social functioning, and 3) have few children while being more
>>>>>> apt to
>>>>>> harm them. Thus, homosexual practioners not only fail to 'pay for 
>>>>>> their
>>>>>> keep,' but by their negative influence on children, cloud society's
>>>>>> future.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   Those who engage in homosexuality seek what they say are 'gay
>>>>>> rights."
>>>>>> In
>>>>>> reality, they are demanding Super Rights. Super Rights are those
>>>>>> privileges
>>>>>> that allow one to ovverride the inalienable rights of other citizens,
>>>>>> such
>>>>>> as freedom of speech and association. These Super Rights-which are
>>>>>> conferred
>>>>>> by 'non-discrimination,' 'hate crime,' and 'hate speech' laws-allow
>>>>>> homosexuals, if they so choose, to endanger or punish those who would
>>>>>> exercise their associational rights to avoid them or protect their
>>>>>> children
>>>>>> from them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   As an example, empirical studies to date indicate that a male 
>>>>>> teacher
>>>>>>
>>>>>> who
>>>>>> practices homosexuality is the most likely kind of teacher to 
>>>>>> sexually
>>>>>> molest students. A principal knowing this may not want to hire a
>>>>>> teacher
>>>>>> who
>>>>>> declares his homosexual interests. But if that teacher wants the job,
>>>>>> his
>>>>>> Super Rights trump the associational rights of the principal as well 
>>>>>> as
>>>>>>
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> right of students not to experience extra risk (especially since 
>>>>>> safety
>>>>>>
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> part of their right to life). Parents renting out one side of their
>>>>>> duplex
>>>>>> may not want to place their children at risk by renting to a gay
>>>>>> couple.
>>>>>> But
>>>>>> if-even on a whim - the homosexuals want the duplex, their Super 
>>>>>> Rights
>>>>>> trump the property and associational rights of the parents as well as
>>>>>> their
>>>>>> children's right not to be exposed to potential molestation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   The Super Rights of homosexual practitioners also squelch the right
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> others to freedom of speech. If a broadcaster opines that homosexual
>>>>>> sex
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> dangerous, but a homosexual finds such speech 'offensive,' his Super
>>>>>> Rights
>>>>>> trump the broadcaster's freedom of speech and the broadcaster may be
>>>>>> fined
>>>>>> or imprisoned."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The concept of hate crimes seems particularly reprehensible. If one 
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> your
>>>>>> (heterosexual) loved ones is the object of a despicable crime, the
>>>>>> perpetrator would receive a lesser punishment than someone who
>>>>>> committed
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> same act against someone who practices homosexual sex!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> +-+-+-
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    He has made clear to you, O man, what is good; and what is desired
>>>>>> from
>>>>>> you by the Lord; only doing what is
>>>>>>  right, and loving mercy, and walking without pride before your God.
>>>>>> Micah
>>>>>> 6:8
>>>>>> ~~~
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>>>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>>>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>>>>> www.theqonline.net
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/lynnwhite51%40sbcglobal.net
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>>>>
>>> Corey Cook
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
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>> 2:14 PM
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
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>


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7:53 AM




From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Mon Nov 10 21:06:04 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 15:06:04 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Emailing: Last Days Ministries I'm Gay, O.K.
References: <35A03D458698454A84A02B53EB5728FC@Buster><0AE2D4A5152D4796862C6EFB2E88D3AE@nickf1758c2c9d><4383d01d0811091933w2fff5563r4b7dc4d58c5eb47c@mail.gmail.com><005d01c942ec$28333750$5c85fe04@rjige047kjawst><4383d01d0811092230p556cf25bk342c1ae7d2a0e47b@mail.gmail.com><9A311BBAB5BA41DEA003B08E23EAC3D0@Alan>
	<4383d01d0811100438u38051b45u8acd9f6e117fb710@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AB828AD3FC394644B63D55A6A5A715BF@your4dacd0ea75>

Perhaps it was not recorded.  In one of the Gospels at the end it talks 
about many more things Jesus did which are not written or it would--I can't 
remember the words, but volumes more or more Gospels would have been 
written.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 6:38 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Emailing: Last Days Ministries I'm Gay, O.K.


> Okay.  So Jesus loved and healed people with disabilities, but why
> didn't he heal the homosexuals?  The Bible was written in ancient
> times.  We have to take the Bible seriously here.  Jesus never seems
> to have healed homosexuals.
> Beth
>
> On 11/10/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>> You're completely missing why Jesus healed those people.  It was their 
>> faith
>> that lead Jesus to heal them.  Not their sin.  I've already posted new
>> testament passages showing this, so I won't repeat myself.
>>
>>
>> +-+-+-
>>
>>    There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither 
>> is
>> there any rock like our God.
>>  1 Samuel 2:2
>> ~~~
>>
>> Alan D Wheeler
>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>> Skype: redwheel1
>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>> www.theqonline.net
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 12:30 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Emailing: Last Days Ministries I'm Gay, O.K.
>>
>>
>>> You're all right about this.  But the Bible makes disabilities and
>>> blindness especially look bad.  Jesus heals a blind man, and back in
>>> he Biblical days, they didn't have Braille, slates and styli, the
>>> Braillewriter, or even more, the Internet, computers, JAWS, and this
>>> listserv.
>>> Think about it.
>>> It doesn't mention Jesus healing a homosexual.  Jesus never hung out
>>> with homosexuals.
>>> Did he?
>>> Beth
>>>
>>> On 11/9/08, rjs059 at peoplepc.com <rjs059 at peoplepc.com> wrote:
>>>> Beth, Marriage, Was a religious practice, long before the government 
>>>> even
>>>> became involved. And furthermore, It is conceder to be a sacrament in 
>>>> the
>>>> Catholic church.
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:33 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Emailing: Last Days Ministries I'm Gay, O.K.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Come on!  I've said it enough.  Marriage isn't going to just be
>>>>> "between ONE MAN and ONE WOMAN" enough these days.  Before you know
>>>>> it, Christians will interpret the Bible as being of the able-bodied to
>>>>> be perfect and capable of multiplyin and so on.  This is horrible!
>>>>> Bet
>>>>>
>>>>> On 11/9/08, trising at sbcglobal.net <trising at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>> That is an absolutely excellent article! All of us sin and fall short
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> glory of God, whether we are gay or a gossip. Jesus loves all of us 
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> came
>>>>>> here to die in our place for our sins so we can go to heaven and be
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> him. We will not go there if we do not trust in Him alone as the
>>>>>> provider
>>>>>>
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> our salvation. People who commit any sin, and that means all of us,
>>>>>> deserve
>>>>>> to be loved, but not to have our sin excused or minimized. It is 
>>>>>> God's
>>>>>> design for marriage to be between one man and one woman. we as
>>>>>> Christians
>>>>>> can stand up for what is right, while loving those caught in 
>>>>>> homosexual
>>>>>> sin.
>>>>>> Giving them special rights is wrong, but so is refusing to talk to
>>>>>> them,
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> regarding them as someone God cannot save.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/rjs059%40peoplepc.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>> Checked by AVG.
>>>> Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1776 - Release Date: 
>>>> 11/8/2008
>>>> 6:49 PM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1778 - Release Date: 11/9/2008
>> 2:14 PM
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
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>


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7:53 AM




From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Mon Nov 10 21:12:39 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 15:12:39 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Did Jesus Heal Homosexuals?
References: <35A03D458698454A84A02B53EB5728FC@Buster><0AE2D4A5152D4796862C6EFB2E88D3AE@nickf1758c2c9d><4383d01d0811091933w2fff5563r4b7dc4d58c5eb47c@mail.gmail.com><005d01c942ec$28333750$5c85fe04@rjige047kjawst><4383d01d0811092230p556cf25bk342c1ae7d2a0e47b@mail.gmail.com><9A311BBAB5BA41DEA003B08E23EAC3D0@Alan><4383d01d0811100438u38051b45u8acd9f6e117fb710@mail.gmail.com><000b01c9433f$0cc53060$5b9ef44c@IBMB7D6F383D44>
	<D17AD0FB0DFA4C83AFBDCC69A37CB2C9@Alan>
Message-ID: <EB14D7D9B97949FDA8373793BA01C7B0@your4dacd0ea75>

You said a mouthful here.  The mote in one eye is as bad as the beam in 
another when it comes to our own conduct every day.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Alan Wheeler" <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
To: "Everett Gavel" <EverettG at successfuladaptations.com>; "Faith-talk,for 
the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 9:25 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Did Jesus Heal Homosexuals?


> Everett,
> Thank you.  I can only add to this that Beth asked how she can tell her 
> friends that their lifestyle is a sin.  That is where repentance comes in. 
> If you have a sin in your life, to repent is to do a 180 degree turn from 
> it towards God.  You don't do it any more, you don't look at it any more, 
> you don't even think about it any more.  There are plenty of Christians 
> that understand repentance and have trouble with specific sins in their 
> lives.
>
>
> +-+-+-
>
>   There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither 
> is there any rock like our God.
> 1 Samuel 2:2
> ~~~
>
> Alan D Wheeler
> awheeler at neb.rr.com
> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
> Skype: redwheel1
> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at 
> www.theqonline.net
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Everett Gavel" <everettg at successfuladaptations.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 8:17 AM
> Subject: [Faith-talk] Did Jesus Heal Homosexuals?
>
>
>> Hello Beth, and all,
>>
>> I've tried to stay out of this.  It does not help
>> anyone learn, if they feel ganged-up on.  But with
>> respect, Beth, I share one point in all this:
>>
>> Jesus both lived and preached the word, God's truth,
>> daily.  Did He "heal" sinners?  Not of their sin, no.
>> And homosexuality - just as is lying, fornication,
>> adultery, murder - are all sins.  What He did do was
>> share God's Truth with them, and some it changed, yes.
>> And others it drove away.  But God did not physically
>> "heal" anyone of homosexuality, because it is a sin,
>> not a disability that needs "healing."  It is not of
>> the same ilk as leprosy, or some disease, or some
>> physical disability.  It is sin, plain and simple.
>> Just as is lying, adultery, murder, etc. The Holy
>> Bible - God's inspired word (2 Tim 3:16 - "All
>> scripture is God-breathed...") says this constantly,
>> consistently, throughout the 66 books that comprise the
>> Bible.
>>
>> Jesus did not heal from sin.  He did, however,
>> constantly warn against the consequences of it, for the
>> unrepentant heart.
>>
>> So, though many of us who try our best each day to live
>> the way Jesus tells us to, often go about it poorly, it
>> is our command, it is our life, to try to help others
>> understand when and if they're purposely living in sin.
>> We will be hated by some for speaking the truth--as was
>> Jesus.  No matter, it is the task given all those who
>> come to know and grasp the beauty that is Jesus Christ.
>>
>> Though ultimately I leave it up to God of course, it
>> seems "logical" to me that one cannot know Jesus truly,
>> and continue living in daily sin.  Though one may make
>> poor choices and fall back to their old ways at times,
>> to do so willingly and continuously is not living for
>> Jesus Christ.  And though many call themselves
>> Christians while sinning, willingly, on a continuing
>> basis, Jesus said that many will call Him, "Lord,
>> Lord," but on the day of Judgement, He will say He
>> never knew them.  To be a Christian is to follow
>> Christ.  To follow Christ means to pay attention to
>> what He actually says in His word, the Holy Bible. And
>> the Bible says not to give in to the urges or
>> temptation of homosexuality, as it is a sin.
>>
>> Anyway, in summary, no, Jesus did not heal homosexuals
>> of their homosexuality.  It is not a disability or
>> disease that needs physical healing.  It is a sin, as
>> are several other things that Jesus warns against
>> numerous times in His word, the Bible.
>>
>>
>> Strive On--for the Truth,
>> And for the Truth--We Need to Read Scripture Ourselves
>> Instead of Listening to Others,
>> Everett
>> www.biblegateway.com (Hint, Hint)  ;-)
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> Okay.  So Jesus loved and healed people with
>>> disabilities, but why
>>> didn't he heal the homosexuals?  The Bible was
>>> written in ancient
>>> times.  We have to take the Bible seriously here.
>>> Jesus never seems
>>> to have healed homosexuals.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1778 - Release Date: 11/9/2008 
> 2:14 PM
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
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7:53 AM




From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Mon Nov 10 21:14:34 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 15:14:34 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] false accusations
References: <BAY133-DAV7C5DF97F6C797B9A3FAA2901B0@phx.gbl><3DE6C8F59A0A4C4E902D8D50D4BF8043@TheCooksPC><4383d01d0811091914k3751b511h4f7af9209ce59288@mail.gmail.com><BAY113-DS3C6688C327278D0DB7291EB1A0@phx.gbl><4383d01d0811092210n35adc1edv5522f0d9cf8b8ebe@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY113-DS3D9E610A258FA98D511DCEB1A0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <30171985FACE488CA036C771ED2938A4@your4dacd0ea75>

The Old Christians were persecuted also.  When I go through a trial, I 
always think of Hebrews where it says, "Ye have not yet resisted unto 
blood."


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Barbara Hammel" <poetlori8 at msn.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 9:34 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] false accusations


> There are many people who do wrong things in God's name.  I do believe 
> that
> the missionaries who went to the Indians were against all the evils that
> were done.
> Barbara
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 12:10 AM
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] false accusations
>
>> That's not always true.  We, European Americans, brought down the
>> Native Americans by way of diseases, uncleanliness, and ethnic
>> cleansing so to speak.  We called it God's being on our side.  Right?
>> The Roman and Greek cvilizations did partake in homosexuality, but the
>> Native Americans were very peaceable people, and look what Juan Ponce
>> de Leon, da Gama, and many other Spanish, English, French, Dutch, and
>> Portuguese explorers did to this continent before it was the United
>> States of America!
>> Beth
>>
>> On 11/10/08, Barbara Hammel <poetlori8 at msn.com> wrote:
>>> And it's this lack of caring about what's gone on before that has led to
>>> the
>>> fall of every civilization that has reinvented the abhorances the Bible
>>> speaks of.
>>> Barbara
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 9:14 PM
>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] false accusations
>>>
>>>> Okay, okay.  I just said it already.  I don't care about your surveys,
>>>> your statistics and data.  It just sounds like a bunch of warped
>>>> knowledge to me.
>>>> Beth
>>>>
>>>> On 11/9/08, Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net> wrote:
>>>>> Well put Pat.
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Pat Gormley" <kk3f at msn.com>
>>>>> To: <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 6:09 PM
>>>>> Subject: [Faith-talk] false accusations
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> People that favor same sex unions tend not to be very good students 
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> history.  Ancient Greece and Rome both experienced similar breakdowns
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> society as their civilizations.  You also need to look at actuarial
>>>>>> data
>>>>>> and those tables indicate that those who engage in alternative
>>>>>> lifestyles
>>>>>> tend to live 10 to 15 years less than a similarly in tact married
>>>>>> couple.
>>>>>> I agree with Alan Wheeler in that we hate the sin  but not the 
>>>>>> sinner.
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>>>>>>
>>>>> Corey Cook
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>


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From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Mon Nov 10 21:15:09 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 16:15:09 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] new school prayer
In-Reply-To: <C1026197C6DA41A485CB4BE58DC3AE99@your4dacd0ea75>
References: <4383d01d0811092216q59181091yc699696d88694561@mail.gmail.com>
	<C1026197C6DA41A485CB4BE58DC3AE99@your4dacd0ea75>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811101315l2ce47538n2b7a332543138dfc@mail.gmail.com>

INteresting.
Beth

On 11/10/08, Julie C. Vogt <jcvogt at pressenter.com> wrote:
> Well, you know what they always taught African-American children in the
> church?  If they don't see your head bowed, your knees bent, and you lips
> move, you can pray in school all you want to.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 12:16 AM
> Subject: [Faith-talk] new school prayer
>
>
>> Take a look at this, guys.  My close friend sent me this one.
>>
>>> >> A kid in Arizona wrote the attached
>>> >>
>>> >> NEW School prayer :
>>> >>
>>> >> Now I sit me down in school
>>> >> Where praying is against the rule
>>> >> For this great nation under God
>>> >> Finds mention of Him very odd.
>>> >> If Scripture now the class recites,
>>> >> It violates the Bill of Rights.
>>> >> And anytime my head I bow
>>> >> Becomes a Federal matter now.
>>> >> Our hair can be purple, orange or green,
>>> >> That's no offense; it's a freedom scene.
>>> >> The law is specific, the law is precise.
>>> >> Prayers spoken aloud are a serious vice.
>>> >> For praying in a public hall
>>> >> Might offend someone with no faith at all.
>>> >> In silence alone we must meditate,
>>> >> God's name is prohibited by the state.
>>> >> We're allowed to cuss and dress like freaks,
>>> >> And pierce our noses, tongues and cheeks..
>>> >> They've outlawed guns, but FIRST the Bible.
>>> >> To quote the Good Book makes me liable.
>>> >> We can elect a pregnant Senior Queen,
>>> >> And the 'unwed daddy,' our Senior King.
>>> >> It's 'inappropriate' to teach right from wrong,
>>> >> We're taught that such 'judgments' do not belong.
>>> >> We can get our condoms and birth controls,
>>> >> Study witchcraft, vampires and totem poles.
>>> >> But the Ten Commandments are not allowed,
>>> >> No word of God must reach this crowd.
>>> >> It's scary here I must confess,
>>> >> When chaos reigns the school's a mess.
>>> >> So, Lord, this silent plea I make:
>>> >> Should I be shot; My soul please take!
>>> >> Amen
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
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> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1779 - Release Date: 11/10/2008
> 7:53 AM
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>



From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Mon Nov 10 21:21:38 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 15:21:38 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] a good way to pray for someone going through
	surgery
References: <BAY133-DAV328CA6385910367BCA55E901A0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <1889132957554700BC7B2FCA29834C42@your4dacd0ea75>

That is monsterly incredible.  Thank God for that every day!


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Pat Gormley" <kk3f at msn.com>
To: <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 9:47 AM
Subject: [Faith-talk] a good way to pray for someone going through surgery


>A couple of weeks ago, Mary my wife went through hernia surgery and before 
>she went in for the surgery, we had a word of prayer that the Great 
>Physician would guide the surgeon's hands so no mistakes are made and the 
>operation would have its intended effect.  This has happened to me more 
>than once.  Back in 1997, two Jewish doctors who performed Tina's gastric 
>bypass surgery came to us when she was in recovery and told us we didn't 
>perform this surgery because they really sensed the presence of angels in 
>the operating room.
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>


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7:53 AM




From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Mon Nov 10 21:22:46 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 15:22:46 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] did Jesus heal homosexuals?
References: <BAY133-DAV45A625000DC5B5B1860A9901A0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <5FC2D35BADE54F498599F4A1974643D7@your4dacd0ea75>

The closest you can get to that is John 8 where Jesus wrote in the sand and 
the people were accusing the adulterer.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Pat Gormley" <kk3f at msn.com>
To: <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 9:34 AM
Subject: [Faith-talk] did Jesus heal homosexuals?


> There's probably no account in the Bible of Jesus healing homosexuals 
> because according to levitical tradition they would have been stoned to 
> death and you think we as Christians are mean spirited.
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>


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From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Mon Nov 10 21:26:30 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 15:26:30 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] article 1
References: <5F3A84795F784BB39F938F35FB1FD13B@TheCooksPC><540AD6D7A71946E7A883D27649F2C41F@nickf1758c2c9d><4383d01d0811092239n65ce4819jbbe399d2bc8f7b2e@mail.gmail.com><7BA2EBD04E794D8DA0FDE7146088DA8F@your4dacd0ea75>
	<20081110174451.64F191A02D1@relay03.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
Message-ID: <219F4D21C6704C3BA6F11AB4D51BACE9@your4dacd0ea75>

It's being disputed now so that it can be the only way to block gay 
marriages.  I heard about it last Friday.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Linda Mentink" <mentink at frontiernet.net>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 11:44 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] article 1


>I haven't heard anything about anyone saying that marriage can only
> be done for procreative purpose.  I don't believe that will happen
> any time soon, so go ahead and continue your relationship.
>
> At 11:13 AM 11/10/2008, you wrote:
>>But if you're 80 and they pass a bill saying that marriage can only
>>be done for procreative reasons, what are you going to do then?
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>><faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 12:39 AM
>>Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] article 1
>>
>>
>>>Forget it.  California already did this, and so did Florida on
>>>Proposition 2.  I'm done here.  This guy is speaking a bunch of tosh
>>>here.  Marriage is no longer just a breeding thing.  It's love as
>>>well.  I mean, if I were eighty years old and couldn't have kids,
>>>could I still marry?  Yes.  I can't breed, but I could still marry.
>>>Now, marriage then is not about breeding.  I don't see why his
>>>argument had to go overboard.  Gay marriage to me is a civil rights
>>>issue as much as it is for me a civil rights issue that we blind
>>>people get to vote on things like what was passed in California and
>>>Florida.
>>>Beth
>>>
>>>On 11/9/08, trising at sbcglobal.net <trising at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>Great article!
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>Faith-talk:
>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Faith-talk mailing list
>>>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>for Faith-talk:
>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>>
>>
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
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>>Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1779 - Release Date:
>>11/10/2008 7:53 AM
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>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Faith-talk mailing list
>>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>for Faith-talk:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
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From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Mon Nov 10 21:31:21 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 15:31:21 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] article 1
References: <5F3A84795F784BB39F938F35FB1FD13B@TheCooksPC><540AD6D7A71946E7A883D27649F2C41F@nickf1758c2c9d><4383d01d0811092239n65ce4819jbbe399d2bc8f7b2e@mail.gmail.com><7BA2EBD04E794D8DA0FDE7146088DA8F@your4dacd0ea75><20081110174451.64F191A02D1@relay03.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
	<4383d01d0811101113p617eee88nbaebd245bf4ad5db@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6A3FDD537D04425F8C04A9A2F66ADCCE@your4dacd0ea75>

Beth, I was responding to the guy who replied if I was 80 years old and got 
married, ... And I did hear a possibility that to block gay marriage they 
were going to see if we could get a bill passed that marriage shouldn't 
occur except for procreation motives.  Well, I'm not planning anything right 
now one way or another.  Time will tell, and it would take a big move if it 
happens.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 1:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] article 1


> What's that got to do with homosexual marriage, Julie?  Please explain.
> Beth
>
> On 11/10/08, Linda Mentink <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
>> I haven't heard anything about anyone saying that marriage can only
>> be done for procreative purpose.  I don't believe that will happen
>> any time soon, so go ahead and continue your relationship.
>>
>> At 11:13 AM 11/10/2008, you wrote:
>>>But if you're 80 and they pass a bill saying that marriage can only
>>>be done for procreative reasons, what are you going to do then?
>>>
>>>
>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>><faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 12:39 AM
>>>Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] article 1
>>>
>>>
>>>>Forget it.  California already did this, and so did Florida on
>>>>Proposition 2.  I'm done here.  This guy is speaking a bunch of tosh
>>>>here.  Marriage is no longer just a breeding thing.  It's love as
>>>>well.  I mean, if I were eighty years old and couldn't have kids,
>>>>could I still marry?  Yes.  I can't breed, but I could still marry.
>>>>Now, marriage then is not about breeding.  I don't see why his
>>>>argument had to go overboard.  Gay marriage to me is a civil rights
>>>>issue as much as it is for me a civil rights issue that we blind
>>>>people get to vote on things like what was passed in California and
>>>>Florida.
>>>>Beth
>>>>
>>>>On 11/9/08, trising at sbcglobal.net <trising at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>Great article!
>>>>>
>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>Faith-talk:
>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>for Faith-talk:
>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>>>
>>>
>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1779 - Release Date:
>>>11/10/2008 7:53 AM
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>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Faith-talk mailing list
>>>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>for Faith-talk:
>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
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>


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From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Mon Nov 10 21:35:18 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 15:35:18 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] New School Prayer
References: <20081110151541.EDF581A022F@relay03.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
	<4383d01d0811101138k20302c90m6cce59379867d0fa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2B4E4E6B50D94C0E956C55B1499070E0@your4dacd0ea75>

There's all kinds of stuff that goes around the net three times in every 
two-year cycle.  There's a thing about Bill Gates giving away money one that 
I get every year and a half that Gates wants to share his wealth with you. 
I also heard that Microsoft would send a hefty reward to anyone who would 
disclose that that message was a hoax for any 100 of their friends.  Some of 
this stuff of the net is really freaky.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 1:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] New School Prayer


> Interesting.  If that prayer isn't new, then why is it on the net now?
> I thought this might be a good faith topic to discuss.
> Beth
>
> On 11/10/08, Linda Mentink <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
>> Beth and all,
>>
>> That prayer is not new.  It's been around a long time, and is just
>> circulating on the internet again.  I've seen it many times before.
>>
>> Blessings,
>>
>> Linda
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>


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From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Mon Nov 10 21:38:22 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 15:38:22 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
References: <17B22BE1EC2F45149C8C36923C19FEB3@TheCooksPC><356348.90200.qm@web51909.mail.re2.yahoo.com><4383d01d0811091912k5b4dd09bud3bef5c09b3e90fb@mail.gmail.com><98D90F132DE0435A98DFE53D103F3590@lynnwhitePC><94422655A2F645D08EA835596BC39625@TheCooksPC><A6CB448E436A455F898BF3826E360CC7@your4dacd0ea75>
	<4383d01d0811101121y447cc926m7385f18304bd76a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E622921B668A47D0BEBD513300D255D0@your4dacd0ea75>

Why didn't where Hillary go to church become a political issue is what I've 
wanted to know for so many months.  She gets her spiritual guidance from 
some Doug Coe or someone like that who is a known spiritual political 
machine.  Must not be too financial if she's still $30,000,000 in debt.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 1:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations


> Yes.  Thanks, Bill.  Because of you, Hilary is not going to be in the
> White House.lol
> Beth
>
> On 11/10/08, Julie C. Vogt <jcvogt at pressenter.com> wrote:
>> Agreed.  Look up fornication and see what it says.  And if there is sex
>> outside of marriage, the woman will always pay before the man does,
>> President Clinton being the one public exception I've seen.  He 
>> complained
>> that people disrespected his wife while she was running for President. 
>> But
>> who was the one to disrespect her first?  Him.  During the Democrat
>> convention, the thing that struck me the funniest was when he was walking 
>> up
>> to speak, they were playing "Chain of Fools."  When he finished his 
>> speech,
>> what were they playing?  Robert Palmer's song, "Addicted to Love."  That 
>> was
>> a hoot.  He was a good President, but even good Presidents can disgrace 
>> the
>> country.
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Corey Cook" <ccook01 at knology.net>
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:50 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>
>>
>>> All sex out side of marriage is a sin in the bible.
>>> The biggest sexual sin the church needs to deal with from with in side 
>>> the
>>> church is premarital sex.
>>> And extra marital sex.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "BMW" <lynnwhite51 at sbcglobal.net>
>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:49 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>
>>>
>>>> Beth, sex outside of the relationship between a husband and wife is a
>>>> sin.
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>> To: <timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com>; "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith
>>>> and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 9:12 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Okay, if homosexuality is a sin, guess what?  What about the
>>>>> homosexuals who have homosexual relations with each other and cannot
>>>>> be attracted to opposite sex members?  I again may mention that I have
>>>>> friends who are gay/lesbian.  And I am pleased with Obama in the white
>>>>> house.  God knows what's best, and I believe in a God who loves all,
>>>>> and God knows that homosexuality is a sin, but it is a sin between
>>>>> those who can physically have someone of the opposite sex along with
>>>>> being attracted with someone of the opposite sex.  Take my
>>>>> ex-boyfriend for instance.  He likes women, but if he went to sleep
>>>>> with a young college friend of mine who I know is attracted to girls,
>>>>> THAT is a sin.  But if my friend who is lesbian went to sleep with the
>>>>> equally lesbian girlfriend, it is not a sin.  We must love everybody
>>>>> unconditionally, and we must not say that they are committing a sin
>>>>> unless they really are and have the brain chemicals made up so that
>>>>> they are attracted to someone of the opposite sex.  I am attracted to
>>>>> menh, so if I went to sleep with my college roommate, for instance,
>>>>> that would be a in in itself.  I am blind, and if I married a blind
>>>>> man, that would be fine.  But the way this country and the bible seems
>>>>> to be interpreted, homosexuality would be stomped out and next will be
>>>>> blindness.  Before we know it, our listservs will be in jeopardy, an
>>>>> then, we wouldn't be able to marry, write, read, go to college, and if
>>>>> the Terrorists get our country, and that is if Barack Obama's not
>>>>> watching over us, we will be wearing veils if we're female.  I for one
>>>>> do not want any ore arguments about homosexuality to ever pop up again
>>>>> on this listserv.  I want to play it straight: it may be a sin, but
>>>>> unfortunately, nobody understands the homosexual cannot be changed if
>>>>> they are truly homosexual.  I understand my friends, and they are good
>>>>> people.  They are going to college and they are going to be band and
>>>>> chorus teachers.  Do you people thin that these girls I'm friends with
>>>>> shouldn't be band and chorus teachers to young children because they
>>>>> are homosexuals?  According to the weird article I read, yes.  But I'd
>>>>> hire them any time.
>>>>> Anyway, that's my soap box for today.
>>>>> Beth
>>>>>
>>>>> On 11/9/08, Frank Lordi <timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>> you are speakin gof the concept of 'blood guilt'?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This so often brought grief to Isreal, no?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --- On Sun, 11/9/08, Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From: Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>>>>> To: "Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 8:44 PM
>>>>>>> Homosexuality is sin.
>>>>>>> Read Romans 1
>>>>>>> read first Corinthians 6
>>>>>>> Yes we need to love them just as we love all sinners, but
>>>>>>> it is time to call it what it is, and that is sin!
>>>>>>> It is a sin that will be the end of this country if we
>>>>>>> allow it to be accepted and embraced.
>>>>>>> Not a popular thought, but a true one.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Wheeler"
>>>>>>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
>>>>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and
>>>>>>> religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 6:29 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> > Never mind.  I keep telling you it is called a sin in
>>>>>>> the bible...if you don't want to believe that God calls
>>>>>>> it a sin, I can't say anything to sway you.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > +-+-+-
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >   There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none
>>>>>>> beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
>>>>>>> > 1 Samuel 2:2
>>>>>>> > ~~~
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Alan D Wheeler
>>>>>>> > awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>>>>> > IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>>>>> > Skype: redwheel1
>>>>>>> > Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM
>>>>>>> eastern time at www.theqonline.net
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beth"
>>>>>>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> > To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and
>>>>>>> religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> > Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 2:41 PM
>>>>>>> > Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >> We're talking about a country where not
>>>>>>> everybody believes in God.  We
>>>>>>> >> Christians are shoving God down the throats of
>>>>>>> those who don't know
>>>>>>> >> him.  We need to pray for the homosexuals and
>>>>>>> those who are
>>>>>>> >> experiencing a so-called sin ad we need to be
>>>>>>> nicer to these people
>>>>>>> >> for God's own sake.
>>>>>>> >> Beth
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler
>>>>>>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> >>> At the same time, homosexuality is called a
>>>>>>> sin and abomination by God. So
>>>>>>> >>> you think we should allow people to continue
>>>>>>> to sin against God?
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> +-+-+-
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>>    We know that all things work together for
>>>>>>> good for those who love God, to
>>>>>>> >>> those
>>>>>>> >>> who are called according to his purpose.
>>>>>>> >>>  Romans 8:28
>>>>>>> >>> ~~~
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> Alan D Wheeler
>>>>>>> >>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>>>>> >>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>>>>> >>> Skype: redwheel1
>>>>>>> >>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1
>>>>>>> PM eastern time at
>>>>>>> >>> www.theqonline.net
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> >>> From: "Beth"
>>>>>>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> >>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of
>>>>>>> faith and religion"
>>>>>>> >>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> >>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:44 AM
>>>>>>> >>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>>> I would have toagree with Julie.  Marriage
>>>>>>> is about love, not
>>>>>>> >>>> procreative reasons only.  I've known
>>>>>>> friends who've gotten married as
>>>>>>> >>>> nonprocreative peoples.  Also, has anybody
>>>>>>> thought that marriage
>>>>>>> >>>> should at least be for those that can
>>>>>>> participate in it as well?
>>>>>>> >>>> Also, if we have bans on same-sex
>>>>>>> marriage, think of it this way: we
>>>>>>> >>>> are forcing religion on the people, which
>>>>>>> God really doesn't want us
>>>>>>> >>>> to do.  To be Christ-like is not to shove
>>>>>>> God down the throats of
>>>>>>> >>>> those who don't know him, but to
>>>>>>> spread God's love to them, to let
>>>>>>> >>>> them be free people.
>>>>>>> >>>> Beth
>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>> >>>> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler
>>>>>>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> >>>>> Beth,
>>>>>>> >>>>> I gently disagree with you.  Marriage
>>>>>>> was designed by God to be between a
>>>>>>> >>>>> man and a woman.  Don't take issue
>>>>>>> because I said it.  Study the Bible
>>>>>>> >>>>> and
>>>>>>> >>>>> if you still don't like it, then
>>>>>>> you have to take it up with God.  It was
>>>>>>> >>>>> His idea to begin with, not man's.
>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>> +-+-+-
>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>    The LORD is my strength and song,
>>>>>>> and he is become my salvation: he is
>>>>>>> >>>>> my
>>>>>>> >>>>> God, and I will prepare him an
>>>>>>> >>>>>  habitation; my father's God, and
>>>>>>> I will exalt him.
>>>>>>> >>>>>  Exodus 15:2
>>>>>>> >>>>> ~~~
>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>>>>>> >>>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>>>>> >>>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>>>>> >>>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>>>>>> >>>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10
>>>>>>> AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>>>>>> >>>>> www.theqonline.net
>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> >>>>> From: "Beth"
>>>>>>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> >>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the
>>>>>>> discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>>>> >>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 7:29
>>>>>>> AM
>>>>>>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False
>>>>>>> Accusations
>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>> I don't care if Obama's
>>>>>>> half-black.  God's people will come to
>>>>>>> >>>>>> understand a few things:
>>>>>>> >>>>>> 1. Marriage, for example, is not
>>>>>>> between "one man and one woman".  It
>>>>>>> >>>>>> is between two able parties, same
>>>>>>> o different sex, that are actually
>>>>>>> >>>>>> willing to stay together.  Our
>>>>>>> high divorce rate of heterosexual
>>>>>>> >>>>>> couples mostly is bad for our
>>>>>>> children herein America.
>>>>>>> >>>>>> 2. Abortion should never happen.
>>>>>>> If it's something that has to do
>>>>>>> >>>>>> with the mother's life and
>>>>>>> health, then that's the only exception.
>>>>>>> >>>>>> But rape and birth control reasons
>>>>>>> are not good ones.
>>>>>>> >>>>>> 3. Blind people can and wwill have
>>>>>>> equal rights to vote, gain security
>>>>>>> >>>>>> benefits, and so on.  Yes,
>>>>>>> Obama's the most liberal, but we need him.
>>>>>>> >>>>>> Maybe he's a lot more
>>>>>>> Christian than Bush was.  But God's people must
>>>>>>> >>>>>> not be against him.  I'm a
>>>>>>> Catholic, and I'm also a liberal as well.
>>>>>>> >>>>>> Obama has also beat Kennedy by so
>>>>>>> many years.  ANything having to do
>>>>>>> >>>>>> with race is out as far as I'm
>>>>>>> concerned.  Next, what will happen when
>>>>>>> >>>>>> a woman is in the White House?
>>>>>>> What about a blind woman? lol
>>>>>>> >>>>>> Beth
>>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>> On 11/8/08, Linda Mentink
>>>>>>> <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Julie,
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm sorry, too.  I'm
>>>>>>> not against our president elect because he's
>>>>>>> >>>>>>> black.  Fact is, he's half
>>>>>>> black.  That's neither here nor
>>>>>>> >>>>>>> there.  It's mainly
>>>>>>> because he's the most liberal of all in Congress,
>>>>>>> >>>>>>> and I believe that a lot of
>>>>>>> our rights will be taken away once he is
>>>>>>> >>>>>>> sworn in.  We'll see what
>>>>>>> happens, but I'm praying for him, and all
>>>>>>> >>>>>>> the rest in authority over us.
>>>>>>>  I sent those things to you because I
>>>>>>> >>>>>>> knew you wouldn't find out
>>>>>>> from the mainstream media.  But the
>>>>>>> >>>>>>> election has made history, and
>>>>>>> God's people need to be more vigilent
>>>>>>> >>>>>>> than
>>>>>>> >>>>>>> ever.
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Blessings,
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Linda
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>>> At 03:33 PM 11/8/2008, you
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It happened by accident.
>>>>>>> When you didn't stop attacking in my
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> in-box--those of you who
>>>>>>> did it--people of other races by way of our
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> new President-elect, I
>>>>>>> wrote what I wrote.  Now you know how false
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> accusations hurt
>>>>>>> everybody.  Because of one man the African-American
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Church, and people who
>>>>>>> attend them, have been under tremendous
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> attack ever since last
>>>>>>> March with no let-up.  Ever since I began
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> attending and became saved
>>>>>>> in African-American churches in 1972,
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I've heard dirty,
>>>>>>> dirty comments like:  "they just do in their
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> church what they did in
>>>>>>> the slave days."  In the slave days,
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> African-Americans
>>>>>>> weren't permitted to know anything of the Bible
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> but "Servants obey
>>>>>>> your masters in the Lord for this is right.
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If people say what people
>>>>>>> have said about one another's churches
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ever since last March,
>>>>>>> referring to us as blind people, we'd be up
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> in arms.  Let us all be
>>>>>>> more careful.
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It hit me like a
>>>>>>> thunderbolt while I was playing piano at a senior
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> citizens building today
>>>>>>> why you all were upset.  And as upset as you
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> were last Thursday night,
>>>>>>> Linda, I was that upset one month ago when
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I read what you
>>>>>>> particularly sent me privately at 5:00 on a Sunday
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> morning while  I was
>>>>>>> getting ready for church.  I'm sorry and maybe
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> we can understand one
>>>>>>> another better now.
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>  has been
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "Loyalty to petrified
>>>>>>> opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> human soul," American
>>>>>>> Humorist Mark Twain
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "An attack on one of
>>>>>>> us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jernigan, Immediate Past
>>>>>>> President, National Federation of the Blind
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "A brother offended
>>>>>>> is harder to be won than a strong city: and
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> their contentions are like
>>>>>>> the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "Faith is the ability
>>>>>>> to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "No one can do it for
>>>>>>> us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push,
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 1976.
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "With proper
>>>>>>> training, development, and opportunity, blindness can
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> be reduced to the level of
>>>>>>> a physical nuisance or characteristic,"
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> the Late Dr. Kenneth
>>>>>>> Jernigan, Past President, National Federation
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> of the Blind.
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Julie Vogt or
>>>>>>> jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change
>>>>>>> your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> for Faith-talk:
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your
>>>>>>> list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> >>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>> >>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list
>>>>>>> options or get your account info for
>>>>>>> >>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>> No virus found in this incoming
>>>>>>> message.
>>>>>>> >>>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>>>>> >>>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database:
>>>>>>> 270.9.0/1776 - Release Date: 11/8/2008
>>>>>>> >>>>> 6:49 PM
>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> >>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>> >>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list
>>>>>>> options or get your account info for
>>>>>>> >>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> >>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>> >>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options
>>>>>>> or get your account info for
>>>>>>> >>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>>>> >>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>>>>> >>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database:
>>>>>>> 270.9.0/1778 - Release Date: 11/9/2008
>>>>>>> >>> 2:14 PM
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> >>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>> >>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or
>>>>>>> get your account info for
>>>>>>> >>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> >> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>> >> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get
>>>>>>> your account info for Faith-talk:
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>>>> > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>>>>> > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1778 -
>>>>>>> Release Date: 11/9/2008 2:14 PM
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> > Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>> > Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>> account info for Faith-talk:
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> Corey Cook
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>> account info for Faith-talk:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/timber_wolf899%40yahoo.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/lynnwhite51%40sbcglobal.net
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>>>>
>>> Corey Cook
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
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>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
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>> 11/10/2008
>> 7:53 AM
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
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>


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7:53 AM




From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Mon Nov 10 21:39:33 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 15:39:33 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] new school prayer
References: <4383d01d0811092216q59181091yc699696d88694561@mail.gmail.com><3976623164E544E0AD2BE11F4214421D@TheCooksPC>
	<4383d01d0811101134m22b7765age7064c4a36c71590@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E684C9F83B534BBCAF73B21954A91200@your4dacd0ea75>

Well, all I know for sure is that before I came to Christ, I was pretty much 
my own God and in rebellion about everything.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 1:34 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] new school prayer


> We seem to have turned against God from the very beginning.  But I
> think we probably overreacted to the George III decrees in England way
> back when.
> Beth
>
> On 11/10/08, Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net> wrote:
>> Interesting.
>> Goes back to how we as a nation have turned against God.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 1:16 AM
>> Subject: [Faith-talk] new school prayer
>>
>>
>>> Take a look at this, guys.  My close friend sent me this one.
>>>
>>>> >> A kid in Arizona wrote the attached
>>>> >>
>>>> >> NEW School prayer :
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Now I sit me down in school
>>>> >> Where praying is against the rule
>>>> >> For this great nation under God
>>>> >> Finds mention of Him very odd.
>>>> >> If Scripture now the class recites,
>>>> >> It violates the Bill of Rights.
>>>> >> And anytime my head I bow
>>>> >> Becomes a Federal matter now.
>>>> >> Our hair can be purple, orange or green,
>>>> >> That's no offense; it's a freedom scene.
>>>> >> The law is specific, the law is precise.
>>>> >> Prayers spoken aloud are a serious vice.
>>>> >> For praying in a public hall
>>>> >> Might offend someone with no faith at all.
>>>> >> In silence alone we must meditate,
>>>> >> God's name is prohibited by the state.
>>>> >> We're allowed to cuss and dress like freaks,
>>>> >> And pierce our noses, tongues and cheeks..
>>>> >> They've outlawed guns, but FIRST the Bible.
>>>> >> To quote the Good Book makes me liable.
>>>> >> We can elect a pregnant Senior Queen,
>>>> >> And the 'unwed daddy,' our Senior King.
>>>> >> It's 'inappropriate' to teach right from wrong,
>>>> >> We're taught that such 'judgments' do not belong.
>>>> >> We can get our condoms and birth controls,
>>>> >> Study witchcraft, vampires and totem poles.
>>>> >> But the Ten Commandments are not allowed,
>>>> >> No word of God must reach this crowd.
>>>> >> It's scary here I must confess,
>>>> >> When chaos reigns the school's a mess.
>>>> >> So, Lord, this silent plea I make:
>>>> >> Should I be shot; My soul please take!
>>>> >> Amen
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>>>
>> Corey Cook
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>


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Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
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7:53 AM




From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Mon Nov 10 22:05:03 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 16:05:03 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] New School Prayer
References: <20081110151541.EDF581A022F@relay03.roch.ny.frontiernet.net><4383d01d0811101138k20302c90m6cce59379867d0fa@mail.gmail.com>
	<2B4E4E6B50D94C0E956C55B1499070E0@your4dacd0ea75>
Message-ID: <C28F6637E97540068B52F2F2A0009CB6@Alan>

Tghere used to be e-mails about the Miller Beer company giving away free beer, or other companies giving away free products if you forwarded the message to a certain number of people.  Thankfully some of those old hoaxes have died.


+-+-+-

   There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. 
 1 Samuel 2:2
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Julie C. Vogt" <jcvogt at pressenter.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 3:35 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] New School Prayer


> There's all kinds of stuff that goes around the net three times in every 
> two-year cycle.  There's a thing about Bill Gates giving away money one that 
> I get every year and a half that Gates wants to share his wealth with you. 
> I also heard that Microsoft would send a hefty reward to anyone who would 
> disclose that that message was a hoax for any 100 of their friends.  Some of 
> this stuff of the net is really freaky.
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 1:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] New School Prayer
> 
> 
>> Interesting.  If that prayer isn't new, then why is it on the net now?
>> I thought this might be a good faith topic to discuss.
>> Beth
>>
>> On 11/10/08, Linda Mentink <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
>>> Beth and all,
>>>
>>> That prayer is not new.  It's been around a long time, and is just
>>> circulating on the internet again.  I've seen it many times before.
>>>
>>> Blessings,
>>>
>>> Linda
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>>
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1779 - Release Date: 11/10/2008 
> 7:53 AM
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Mon Nov 10 22:24:10 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 16:24:10 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] About an Artist and Musical Selection
Message-ID: <0CFB8E2561ED438BADF094CA06A75E4B@your4dacd0ea75>

Have you heard the Gospel song, "The Judgment" by Slim and the Supreme Angels?  Slim's given name is Howard Hunt and Slim was his nickname.  They were a Gospel group that were together over 50 years.  The last five years of his life he was very sick and still performed.  He was a minister as well.

"The Judgment" turned out to be recorded the last two days or so that he lived.  He died maybe it will be three years ago this March.  In the song, he addressed a lot of issues of today that Christians face.  He made one phone call after the song was recorded, telling about the song.  The call was made from a cell phone and just as he said, "I recorded that song because I wanted to leave a little something with the people,"
the cell phone went dead.  It's
probably the biggest hit that group had in 50 years.  If you get a chance, you should hear it.

"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul," American Humorist Mark Twain

"An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind

"A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV

"Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)

"No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push, 1976.

"Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God." -I Cor. 10:31
 
"With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic," the Late Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation of the Blind.

Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com 





From wesley.burden at verizon.net  Mon Nov 10 22:33:19 2008
From: wesley.burden at verizon.net (WESLEY BURDEN)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 17:33:19 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Emailing: Last Days Ministries Do You Feel Like Giving
	Up
Message-ID: <88FD1E095EB4484DB25529FAD2012DDC@Buster>

	


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 UserscaroldegraffDesktopLDM Ar
<http://lastdaysministries.org/Images/content/1000000028/1000037556.jpg> Do
You Feel Like Giving Up?



David Wilkerson 

A growing number of ministers have been writing to me in recent months,
telling of their concern for those in their flock who are simply giving up.
Today, more and more Christians are at the breaking point. None of the talk
about giving up has to do with the Lord. Few Christians would even dare
entertain thoughts of quitting on their love for Jesus. Most despairing
Christians think only of giving up on themselves. You hear it so often now,
"I can't go on anymore. I just can't make it. It's totally hopeless! Why
try?"

I hear some ministers today who continually preach only a positive message.
To hear them tell it, every Christian is receiving miracles-everybody is
getting instant answers to prayer-everybody's feeling good, living good, and
the whole world is bright and rosy. I really wish all those good and healthy
things for God's people, but that's not the way things are for a great
number of very honest and sincere Christians. How sad to hear such shallow
theology being pushed from pulpits today. It's an insult to a lowly Jesus
who became poor, who died a failure in the eyes of the world. It is this
kind of materialistic preaching that has so ill-prepared an entire
generation of Christians to endure any kind of pain. They have not learned
to be content with such things as they have-to be abased and not always
abounding. Serving God becomes a kind of Olympic race in which everyone must
strive for gold medals.

No wonder our young people give up in defeat. They can't live up to the
image created by the religion of a happy-go-lucky, rich, successful, always
positive-thinking Christian. Their world is not that idealistic. They look
in a mirror reflecting a face covered with ugly pimples. They live with
heartbreaks, hour-by-hour crises, and horrible family problems. They look
into the uncertain future, frightened and worried.

Positive thinking won't make their problems go away. Confessing that these
problems don't really exist doesn't change a thing. These "apostles of the
positive" should not exclude the Gethsemane experiences of life. The cup of
pain, the hour of isolation, and the night of confusion were all part of the
Master's lifestyle. Our great achievements, our successes, ought to take
place at Gethsemane, not Fort Knox!

The sawdust trail for many has become the gold dust trail. The Bible has
become a catalog, with unlimited order blanks for life's goodies. Anything
having to do with Job-like pain and suffering is considered negative. God is
good and one should always think on good and honest reports-but pain,
poverty, and suffering have befallen some of the saintliest of God's
people-just like righteous Job.


Marriage

What do you say to that wife whose home is breaking up and she seems
powerless to stop it? She's been advised by her friends, counseled by her
pastor, and has been exhorted over and over again to "stay on your knees and
believe God for a miracle." So she fasts, and she prays. She bends over
backwards, to the point of crawling on her knees to her husband. She
exercises faith with every ability she possesses. But in spite of all her
honest efforts, he grows hard and bitter, demanding a divorce.

Not all marriages are healed through prayer or good intentions. It takes two
to make a marriage work, and even though prayer may bring down the power of
Holy Ghost conviction upon a straying mate, that mate can resist all God's
efforts and abort the solution.

Some may be wondering why I've spent so much time lately talking about
marriage, divorce, and the home. The reason is simple enough. In my
crusades, I talk to so many kids on the brink of suicide. An overwhelming
majority tell me their depression stems from trouble at home. Their parents
are having trouble, or they have already gotten a divorce.

Multitudes of husbands and wives are giving up on their marriages. A
successful marriage counselor took me to lunch recently, and before the
entree was served, he confessed his own marriage had been in jeopardy. "You
just can't take any good marriage for granted anymore," he said. "I'm
convinced Satan is determined to break up my marriage-and every good
Christian marriage. It's a well-planned attack on the best of marriages. If
Satan can get the strongest, most admired marriages broken up-then weaker
ones will be tempted to quit struggling and give up."

The secret struggles in the Christian's personal life are just as critical.
The inner battles of the average Christian today are staggering in intensity
and proportion. Multitudes are involved in situations too hard to
comprehend.

Paul said, "For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened.
"(II Cor. 5:4) I doubt we could even count the great numbers of Christians
who groan in secret because of the burdens they carry. Paul also talked
about "...affliction which came to us...we were burdened excessively, beyond
our strength, so that we despaired even of life." (II Cor. 1:8)

If you pulled back the facade from every great preacher and every admired
personality, you would find moments of deep depression. You would find the
same infirmities you find in any normal Christian. We all have seasons of
despair accompanied by feelings of failure. At times, we have all thought of
quitting. We have all had thoughts of giving up. Why do we feel like giving
up at times? Mostly because we act like God has forsaken the earth. We don't
doubt His existence or His reality. But our prayers seem to go unanswered.
We cry out for His help in such desperation, and He seems not to hear. We
struggle along, making one mistake after another. We make promises to do
better, we get into the Bible, we cry and pray, and stay busy helping others
and doing good. But we are so often left with an empty, unfulfilled
sensation. The promises of God haunt us. We hold onto those promises-in what
we believe is honest, childlike faith-but time after time we fail to receive
what we ask for. In the hour of temptation-down we go!

Doubt creeps in and Satan whispers, "Nothing works. Faith in God doesn't
produce results. In spite of your tears, prayers, and trust in God's
Word-nothing really changes. Days, weeks, and even years go by, and your
prayers, hopes, and dreams are still unanswered and unfulfilled. Quit! Give
up!"

Every Christian on this planet reaches that crisis point at one time or
another in life. And in that moment, when the walls seem to be caving in and
the roof appears to be collapsing, when everything seems to be coming apart,
a voice deep within cries out, "Walk away from it all ... Pack it in!
Escape! Why put up with it? Run away . . . you don't have to take it. Do
something drastic!"

David, overwhelmed by the evil in his heart, cried out to God, "Awake, why
do you sleep? Cast me not off...why do you hide? Why do you forget?" (Psalm
44:23-24)

Christian-does it amaze you that great men of old faced the same battles you
and I face today? The Bible says, "Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery
ordeal among you, which comes upon you for your testing, as though some
strange thing were happening to you; but to the degree that you share the
sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing, so that also at the revelation of
His glory, you may rejoice with exultation." (I Peter 4:12-13)

How can we learn to hold on and live one day at a time? You can begin by
forgetting all short cuts and magic cures. The Christian doesn't need a
supposed demon of despair cast out, as if his going would make life easier.
Nor will God come down and do our living for us. The tempter will not be
destroyed until that day God casts him into prison. Satan will always be
here, deceiving, accusing, and trying to rob every believer of his faith.

The longer I live for Christ, the more difficult it is for me to accept
easy, cure-all solutions. But in my own struggles, I've found great comfort
and help in two wonderful absolutes.

The first absolute is: God really loves me. God is not in the business of
condemning His children-failures or not. He yearns over us as a loving
father, wanting only to lift us out of our weaknesses.

I caught a glimpse of that love recently while walking in the woods around
our ranch. Suddenly, there on the ground just ahead flopped a crippled
little bird. I stooped to pick it up. It was then a familiar Scripture came
flashing through my mind. "Are not two sparrows sold for a cent? And yet not
one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father." (Matt. 10:29)

God is with us, even when we fall. He does not abandon us on our way down.
Our Lord never gives up on any of us!

Have you also fallen? Do you relate to that crippled sparrow, flopping
helplessly in the dust? Are you wounded, hurting, and feeling lost and
lonely? Do you ever think to yourself, "How can God put up with someone like
me? How can He still love me when I've failed Him so badly?"

Often, we can recognize His great love only when we have hit bottom. Don't
panic. Deliverance will come. God answers us by showing His love. And when
we have learned how weak we are and have learned to trust His love and
forgiveness-He will stoop down and gently help us back to the nest.

The second absolute is: It is my faith that pleases Him the most! "Without
faith it is impossible to please Him." (Heb. 11:6) God wants so much to be
trusted. That trust He counts as righteousness. (Rom. 4:3)

What do I do when temptation rolls over me like a flood? When my
inadequacies overwhelm me and I see the reality of my weaknesses? Give up?
Quit? Never!! I bring to God all I've got left-my faith in Him! I may not
understand why He seems to take such a long time to intervene, but I know He
will. He will keep His word to me.

I am convinced Satan wants to rob me of only one thing-my faith. He really
doesn't want my morals or good deeds or my dreams. He wants to destroy my
faith and make me believe God has forsaken this earth.

A fall is never fatal to those who keep their faith intact. In spite of
despair and pressures that bog the mind and sap the strength, I believe God.
I believe He will "keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the
presence of His glory blameless with great joy." (Jude 24)



Reprinted by permission from David Wilkerson Crusades; excerpted from Mr.
Wilkerson's book, "Have You Felt Like Giving Up Lately?", Fleming H. Revell,
Publishers.





David Wilkerson, 2/21/2007 

 	




Mary
<http://lastdaysministries.org/Articles/1000030834/Last_Days_Ministries/LDM/
Discipleship_Teachings/Mary_of_Nazareth.aspx> of Nazareth	
Article of the life of Mary More
<http://lastdaysministries.org/Articles/1000030834/Last_Days_Ministries/LDM/
Discipleship_Teachings/Mary_of_Nazareth.aspx> ... 	
Melody Green	

Zeal:
<http://lastdaysministries.org/Articles/1000008658/Last_Days_Ministries/LDM/
Discipleship_Teachings/Zeal_Love_Ablaze.aspx> Love Ablaze!	
Enoch had prophesied, saying, "Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of
His holy ones." I More
<http://lastdaysministries.org/Articles/1000008658/Last_Days_Ministries/LDM/
Discipleship_Teachings/Zeal_Love_Ablaze.aspx> ... 	
Leonard Ravenhill	

Your
<http://lastdaysministries.org/Articles/1000008657/Last_Days_Ministries/LDM/
Discipleship_Teachings/Your_Day_In.aspx> Day In Court	
In a very brief and very brilliant biography of a famous English preacher,
one of the greatest preachers that ever preached in America or England, it
says that he had some very strange habits. More
<http://lastdaysministries.org/Articles/1000008657/Last_Days_Ministries/LDM/
Discipleship_Teachings/Your_Day_In.aspx> ... 	
Leonard Ravenhill	

You
<http://lastdaysministries.org/Articles/1000008656/Last_Days_Ministries/LDM/
Discipleship_Teachings/You_Are_A.aspx> Are A Dangerous Generation	
So it is with your generation. More
<http://lastdaysministries.org/Articles/1000008656/Last_Days_Ministries/LDM/
Discipleship_Teachings/You_Are_A.aspx> ... 	
Melody Green	

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From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Mon Nov 10 22:46:08 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 17:46:08 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Point of View
In-Reply-To: <20081110192212.1E500AC991@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
References: <20081110192212.1E500AC991@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811101446j74f58438k335cb29785d66763@mail.gmail.com>

Interesting stuff, Linda.  VEry fascinating.
Beth

On 11/10/08, Linda Mentink <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
> Beth, right now I'm listening to a radio program called Point of
> View.  Messages don't seem to go through too quickly here, so the
> program will probably be over when this comes to you.  But you can
> listen or watch the archive at pointofview.net.
>
> Blessings,
>
> Linda
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>



From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Mon Nov 10 22:47:44 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 17:47:44 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] New School Prayer
In-Reply-To: <C28F6637E97540068B52F2F2A0009CB6@Alan>
References: <20081110151541.EDF581A022F@relay03.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
	<4383d01d0811101138k20302c90m6cce59379867d0fa@mail.gmail.com>
	<2B4E4E6B50D94C0E956C55B1499070E0@your4dacd0ea75>
	<C28F6637E97540068B52F2F2A0009CB6@Alan>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811101447x77cf29a2h12ae7605120a4a0e@mail.gmail.com>

That's weird.  That's totally weird.  But back to the original topic,
what do you guys think?  Does this poem really talk about the nation?
I'm sure it does.
Beth

On 11/10/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
> Tghere used to be e-mails about the Miller Beer company giving away free
> beer, or other companies giving away free products if you forwarded the
> message to a certain number of people.  Thankfully some of those old hoaxes
> have died.
>
>
> +-+-+-
>
>    There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is
> there any rock like our God.
>  1 Samuel 2:2
> ~~~
>
> Alan D Wheeler
> awheeler at neb.rr.com
> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
> Skype: redwheel1
> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
> www.theqonline.net
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Julie C. Vogt" <jcvogt at pressenter.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 3:35 PM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] New School Prayer
>
>
>> There's all kinds of stuff that goes around the net three times in every
>> two-year cycle.  There's a thing about Bill Gates giving away money one
>> that
>> I get every year and a half that Gates wants to share his wealth with you.
>>
>> I also heard that Microsoft would send a hefty reward to anyone who would
>> disclose that that message was a hoax for any 100 of their friends.  Some
>> of
>> this stuff of the net is really freaky.
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 1:38 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] New School Prayer
>>
>>
>>> Interesting.  If that prayer isn't new, then why is it on the net now?
>>> I thought this might be a good faith topic to discuss.
>>> Beth
>>>
>>> On 11/10/08, Linda Mentink <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
>>>> Beth and all,
>>>>
>>>> That prayer is not new.  It's been around a long time, and is just
>>>> circulating on the internet again.  I've seen it many times before.
>>>>
>>>> Blessings,
>>>>
>>>> Linda
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>>>
>>
>>
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>
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From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Mon Nov 10 22:52:37 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 17:52:37 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] false accusations
In-Reply-To: <30171985FACE488CA036C771ED2938A4@your4dacd0ea75>
References: <BAY133-DAV7C5DF97F6C797B9A3FAA2901B0@phx.gbl>
	<3DE6C8F59A0A4C4E902D8D50D4BF8043@TheCooksPC>
	<4383d01d0811091914k3751b511h4f7af9209ce59288@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY113-DS3C6688C327278D0DB7291EB1A0@phx.gbl>
	<4383d01d0811092210n35adc1edv5522f0d9cf8b8ebe@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY113-DS3D9E610A258FA98D511DCEB1A0@phx.gbl>
	<30171985FACE488CA036C771ED2938A4@your4dacd0ea75>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811101452t85a7399h54b13e715ef0e672@mail.gmail.com>

I like that scripture passage there.
Beth

On 11/10/08, Julie C. Vogt <jcvogt at pressenter.com> wrote:
> The Old Christians were persecuted also.  When I go through a trial, I
> always think of Hebrews where it says, "Ye have not yet resisted unto
> blood."
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Barbara Hammel" <poetlori8 at msn.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 9:34 AM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] false accusations
>
>
>> There are many people who do wrong things in God's name.  I do believe
>> that
>> the missionaries who went to the Indians were against all the evils that
>> were done.
>> Barbara
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 12:10 AM
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] false accusations
>>
>>> That's not always true.  We, European Americans, brought down the
>>> Native Americans by way of diseases, uncleanliness, and ethnic
>>> cleansing so to speak.  We called it God's being on our side.  Right?
>>> The Roman and Greek cvilizations did partake in homosexuality, but the
>>> Native Americans were very peaceable people, and look what Juan Ponce
>>> de Leon, da Gama, and many other Spanish, English, French, Dutch, and
>>> Portuguese explorers did to this continent before it was the United
>>> States of America!
>>> Beth
>>>
>>> On 11/10/08, Barbara Hammel <poetlori8 at msn.com> wrote:
>>>> And it's this lack of caring about what's gone on before that has led to
>>>> the
>>>> fall of every civilization that has reinvented the abhorances the Bible
>>>> speaks of.
>>>> Barbara
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 9:14 PM
>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] false accusations
>>>>
>>>>> Okay, okay.  I just said it already.  I don't care about your surveys,
>>>>> your statistics and data.  It just sounds like a bunch of warped
>>>>> knowledge to me.
>>>>> Beth
>>>>>
>>>>> On 11/9/08, Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net> wrote:
>>>>>> Well put Pat.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Pat Gormley" <kk3f at msn.com>
>>>>>> To: <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 6:09 PM
>>>>>> Subject: [Faith-talk] false accusations
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> People that favor same sex unions tend not to be very good students
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> history.  Ancient Greece and Rome both experienced similar breakdowns
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> society as their civilizations.  You also need to look at actuarial
>>>>>>> data
>>>>>>> and those tables indicate that those who engage in alternative
>>>>>>> lifestyles
>>>>>>> tend to live 10 to 15 years less than a similarly in tact married
>>>>>>> couple.
>>>>>>> I agree with Alan Wheeler in that we hate the sin  but not the
>>>>>>> sinner.
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Corey Cook
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>>
>
>
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>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1779 - Release Date: 11/10/2008
> 7:53 AM
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> _______________________________________________
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From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Mon Nov 10 22:57:44 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 17:57:44 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
In-Reply-To: <E622921B668A47D0BEBD513300D255D0@your4dacd0ea75>
References: <17B22BE1EC2F45149C8C36923C19FEB3@TheCooksPC>
	<356348.90200.qm@web51909.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<4383d01d0811091912k5b4dd09bud3bef5c09b3e90fb@mail.gmail.com>
	<98D90F132DE0435A98DFE53D103F3590@lynnwhitePC>
	<94422655A2F645D08EA835596BC39625@TheCooksPC>
	<A6CB448E436A455F898BF3826E360CC7@your4dacd0ea75>
	<4383d01d0811101121y447cc926m7385f18304bd76a@mail.gmail.com>
	<E622921B668A47D0BEBD513300D255D0@your4dacd0ea75>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811101457k3574f766w95854e0cbabef729@mail.gmail.com>

WHat?  THat's something I didn't know.
Beth

On 11/10/08, Julie C. Vogt <jcvogt at pressenter.com> wrote:
> Why didn't where Hillary go to church become a political issue is what I've
> wanted to know for so many months.  She gets her spiritual guidance from
> some Doug Coe or someone like that who is a known spiritual political
> machine.  Must not be too financial if she's still $30,000,000 in debt.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 1:21 PM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>
>
>> Yes.  Thanks, Bill.  Because of you, Hilary is not going to be in the
>> White House.lol
>> Beth
>>
>> On 11/10/08, Julie C. Vogt <jcvogt at pressenter.com> wrote:
>>> Agreed.  Look up fornication and see what it says.  And if there is sex
>>> outside of marriage, the woman will always pay before the man does,
>>> President Clinton being the one public exception I've seen.  He
>>> complained
>>> that people disrespected his wife while she was running for President.
>>> But
>>> who was the one to disrespect her first?  Him.  During the Democrat
>>> convention, the thing that struck me the funniest was when he was walking
>>>
>>> up
>>> to speak, they were playing "Chain of Fools."  When he finished his
>>> speech,
>>> what were they playing?  Robert Palmer's song, "Addicted to Love."  That
>>> was
>>> a hoot.  He was a good President, but even good Presidents can disgrace
>>> the
>>> country.
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Corey Cook" <ccook01 at knology.net>
>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:50 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>
>>>
>>>> All sex out side of marriage is a sin in the bible.
>>>> The biggest sexual sin the church needs to deal with from with in side
>>>> the
>>>> church is premarital sex.
>>>> And extra marital sex.
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "BMW" <lynnwhite51 at sbcglobal.net>
>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:49 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Beth, sex outside of the relationship between a husband and wife is a
>>>>> sin.
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: <timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com>; "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith
>>>>> and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 9:12 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Okay, if homosexuality is a sin, guess what?  What about the
>>>>>> homosexuals who have homosexual relations with each other and cannot
>>>>>> be attracted to opposite sex members?  I again may mention that I have
>>>>>> friends who are gay/lesbian.  And I am pleased with Obama in the white
>>>>>> house.  God knows what's best, and I believe in a God who loves all,
>>>>>> and God knows that homosexuality is a sin, but it is a sin between
>>>>>> those who can physically have someone of the opposite sex along with
>>>>>> being attracted with someone of the opposite sex.  Take my
>>>>>> ex-boyfriend for instance.  He likes women, but if he went to sleep
>>>>>> with a young college friend of mine who I know is attracted to girls,
>>>>>> THAT is a sin.  But if my friend who is lesbian went to sleep with the
>>>>>> equally lesbian girlfriend, it is not a sin.  We must love everybody
>>>>>> unconditionally, and we must not say that they are committing a sin
>>>>>> unless they really are and have the brain chemicals made up so that
>>>>>> they are attracted to someone of the opposite sex.  I am attracted to
>>>>>> menh, so if I went to sleep with my college roommate, for instance,
>>>>>> that would be a in in itself.  I am blind, and if I married a blind
>>>>>> man, that would be fine.  But the way this country and the bible seems
>>>>>> to be interpreted, homosexuality would be stomped out and next will be
>>>>>> blindness.  Before we know it, our listservs will be in jeopardy, an
>>>>>> then, we wouldn't be able to marry, write, read, go to college, and if
>>>>>> the Terrorists get our country, and that is if Barack Obama's not
>>>>>> watching over us, we will be wearing veils if we're female.  I for one
>>>>>> do not want any ore arguments about homosexuality to ever pop up again
>>>>>> on this listserv.  I want to play it straight: it may be a sin, but
>>>>>> unfortunately, nobody understands the homosexual cannot be changed if
>>>>>> they are truly homosexual.  I understand my friends, and they are good
>>>>>> people.  They are going to college and they are going to be band and
>>>>>> chorus teachers.  Do you people thin that these girls I'm friends with
>>>>>> shouldn't be band and chorus teachers to young children because they
>>>>>> are homosexuals?  According to the weird article I read, yes.  But I'd
>>>>>> hire them any time.
>>>>>> Anyway, that's my soap box for today.
>>>>>> Beth
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/9/08, Frank Lordi <timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> you are speakin gof the concept of 'blood guilt'?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This so often brought grief to Isreal, no?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --- On Sun, 11/9/08, Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From: Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net>
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>>>>>> To: "Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 8:44 PM
>>>>>>>> Homosexuality is sin.
>>>>>>>> Read Romans 1
>>>>>>>> read first Corinthians 6
>>>>>>>> Yes we need to love them just as we love all sinners, but
>>>>>>>> it is time to call it what it is, and that is sin!
>>>>>>>> It is a sin that will be the end of this country if we
>>>>>>>> allow it to be accepted and embraced.
>>>>>>>> Not a popular thought, but a true one.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Wheeler"
>>>>>>>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
>>>>>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and
>>>>>>>> religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 6:29 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> > Never mind.  I keep telling you it is called a sin in
>>>>>>>> the bible...if you don't want to believe that God calls
>>>>>>>> it a sin, I can't say anything to sway you.
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > +-+-+-
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >   There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none
>>>>>>>> beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
>>>>>>>> > 1 Samuel 2:2
>>>>>>>> > ~~~
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > Alan D Wheeler
>>>>>>>> > awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>>>>>> > IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>>>>>> > Skype: redwheel1
>>>>>>>> > Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM
>>>>>>>> eastern time at www.theqonline.net
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beth"
>>>>>>>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> > To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and
>>>>>>>> religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> > Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 2:41 PM
>>>>>>>> > Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> We're talking about a country where not
>>>>>>>> everybody believes in God.  We
>>>>>>>> >> Christians are shoving God down the throats of
>>>>>>>> those who don't know
>>>>>>>> >> him.  We need to pray for the homosexuals and
>>>>>>>> those who are
>>>>>>>> >> experiencing a so-called sin ad we need to be
>>>>>>>> nicer to these people
>>>>>>>> >> for God's own sake.
>>>>>>>> >> Beth
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler
>>>>>>>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> >>> At the same time, homosexuality is called a
>>>>>>>> sin and abomination by God. So
>>>>>>>> >>> you think we should allow people to continue
>>>>>>>> to sin against God?
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> >>> +-+-+-
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> >>>    We know that all things work together for
>>>>>>>> good for those who love God, to
>>>>>>>> >>> those
>>>>>>>> >>> who are called according to his purpose.
>>>>>>>> >>>  Romans 8:28
>>>>>>>> >>> ~~~
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> >>> Alan D Wheeler
>>>>>>>> >>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>>>>>> >>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>>>>>> >>> Skype: redwheel1
>>>>>>>> >>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1
>>>>>>>> PM eastern time at
>>>>>>>> >>> www.theqonline.net
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> >>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> >>> From: "Beth"
>>>>>>>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> >>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of
>>>>>>>> faith and religion"
>>>>>>>> >>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> >>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:44 AM
>>>>>>>> >>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False Accusations
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> >>>> I would have toagree with Julie.  Marriage
>>>>>>>> is about love, not
>>>>>>>> >>>> procreative reasons only.  I've known
>>>>>>>> friends who've gotten married as
>>>>>>>> >>>> nonprocreative peoples.  Also, has anybody
>>>>>>>> thought that marriage
>>>>>>>> >>>> should at least be for those that can
>>>>>>>> participate in it as well?
>>>>>>>> >>>> Also, if we have bans on same-sex
>>>>>>>> marriage, think of it this way: we
>>>>>>>> >>>> are forcing religion on the people, which
>>>>>>>> God really doesn't want us
>>>>>>>> >>>> to do.  To be Christ-like is not to shove
>>>>>>>> God down the throats of
>>>>>>>> >>>> those who don't know him, but to
>>>>>>>> spread God's love to them, to let
>>>>>>>> >>>> them be free people.
>>>>>>>> >>>> Beth
>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler
>>>>>>>> <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> >>>>> Beth,
>>>>>>>> >>>>> I gently disagree with you.  Marriage
>>>>>>>> was designed by God to be between a
>>>>>>>> >>>>> man and a woman.  Don't take issue
>>>>>>>> because I said it.  Study the Bible
>>>>>>>> >>>>> and
>>>>>>>> >>>>> if you still don't like it, then
>>>>>>>> you have to take it up with God.  It was
>>>>>>>> >>>>> His idea to begin with, not man's.
>>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>>> +-+-+-
>>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>>>    The LORD is my strength and song,
>>>>>>>> and he is become my salvation: he is
>>>>>>>> >>>>> my
>>>>>>>> >>>>> God, and I will prepare him an
>>>>>>>> >>>>>  habitation; my father's God, and
>>>>>>>> I will exalt him.
>>>>>>>> >>>>>  Exodus 15:2
>>>>>>>> >>>>> ~~~
>>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>>>>>>> >>>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>>>>>> >>>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>>>>>> >>>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>>>>>>> >>>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10
>>>>>>>> AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>>>>>>> >>>>> www.theqonline.net
>>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> >>>>> From: "Beth"
>>>>>>>> <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> >>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the
>>>>>>>> discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>>>>> >>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 7:29
>>>>>>>> AM
>>>>>>>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] False
>>>>>>>> Accusations
>>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>>>> I don't care if Obama's
>>>>>>>> half-black.  God's people will come to
>>>>>>>> >>>>>> understand a few things:
>>>>>>>> >>>>>> 1. Marriage, for example, is not
>>>>>>>> between "one man and one woman".  It
>>>>>>>> >>>>>> is between two able parties, same
>>>>>>>> o different sex, that are actually
>>>>>>>> >>>>>> willing to stay together.  Our
>>>>>>>> high divorce rate of heterosexual
>>>>>>>> >>>>>> couples mostly is bad for our
>>>>>>>> children herein America.
>>>>>>>> >>>>>> 2. Abortion should never happen.
>>>>>>>> If it's something that has to do
>>>>>>>> >>>>>> with the mother's life and
>>>>>>>> health, then that's the only exception.
>>>>>>>> >>>>>> But rape and birth control reasons
>>>>>>>> are not good ones.
>>>>>>>> >>>>>> 3. Blind people can and wwill have
>>>>>>>> equal rights to vote, gain security
>>>>>>>> >>>>>> benefits, and so on.  Yes,
>>>>>>>> Obama's the most liberal, but we need him.
>>>>>>>> >>>>>> Maybe he's a lot more
>>>>>>>> Christian than Bush was.  But God's people must
>>>>>>>> >>>>>> not be against him.  I'm a
>>>>>>>> Catholic, and I'm also a liberal as well.
>>>>>>>> >>>>>> Obama has also beat Kennedy by so
>>>>>>>> many years.  ANything having to do
>>>>>>>> >>>>>> with race is out as far as I'm
>>>>>>>> concerned.  Next, what will happen when
>>>>>>>> >>>>>> a woman is in the White House?
>>>>>>>> What about a blind woman? lol
>>>>>>>> >>>>>> Beth
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>>>> On 11/8/08, Linda Mentink
>>>>>>>> <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Julie,
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm sorry, too.  I'm
>>>>>>>> not against our president elect because he's
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> black.  Fact is, he's half
>>>>>>>> black.  That's neither here nor
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> there.  It's mainly
>>>>>>>> because he's the most liberal of all in Congress,
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> and I believe that a lot of
>>>>>>>> our rights will be taken away once he is
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> sworn in.  We'll see what
>>>>>>>> happens, but I'm praying for him, and all
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> the rest in authority over us.
>>>>>>>>  I sent those things to you because I
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> knew you wouldn't find out
>>>>>>>> from the mainstream media.  But the
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> election has made history, and
>>>>>>>> God's people need to be more vigilent
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> ever.
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Blessings,
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Linda
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> At 03:33 PM 11/8/2008, you
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It happened by accident.
>>>>>>>> When you didn't stop attacking in my
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> in-box--those of you who
>>>>>>>> did it--people of other races by way of our
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> new President-elect, I
>>>>>>>> wrote what I wrote.  Now you know how false
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> accusations hurt
>>>>>>>> everybody.  Because of one man the African-American
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Church, and people who
>>>>>>>> attend them, have been under tremendous
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> attack ever since last
>>>>>>>> March with no let-up.  Ever since I began
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> attending and became saved
>>>>>>>> in African-American churches in 1972,
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I've heard dirty,
>>>>>>>> dirty comments like:  "they just do in their
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> church what they did in
>>>>>>>> the slave days."  In the slave days,
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> African-Americans
>>>>>>>> weren't permitted to know anything of the Bible
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> but "Servants obey
>>>>>>>> your masters in the Lord for this is right.
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If people say what people
>>>>>>>> have said about one another's churches
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ever since last March,
>>>>>>>> referring to us as blind people, we'd be up
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> in arms.  Let us all be
>>>>>>>> more careful.
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It hit me like a
>>>>>>>> thunderbolt while I was playing piano at a senior
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> citizens building today
>>>>>>>> why you all were upset.  And as upset as you
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> were last Thursday night,
>>>>>>>> Linda, I was that upset one month ago when
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I read what you
>>>>>>>> particularly sent me privately at 5:00 on a Sunday
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> morning while  I was
>>>>>>>> getting ready for church.  I'm sorry and maybe
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> we can understand one
>>>>>>>> another better now.
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>  has been
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "Loyalty to petrified
>>>>>>>> opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> human soul," American
>>>>>>>> Humorist Mark Twain
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "An attack on one of
>>>>>>>> us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jernigan, Immediate Past
>>>>>>>> President, National Federation of the Blind
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "A brother offended
>>>>>>>> is harder to be won than a strong city: and
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> their contentions are like
>>>>>>>> the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "Faith is the ability
>>>>>>>> to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "No one can do it for
>>>>>>>> us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push,
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 1976.
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "With proper
>>>>>>>> training, development, and opportunity, blindness can
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> be reduced to the level of
>>>>>>>> a physical nuisance or characteristic,"
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> the Late Dr. Kenneth
>>>>>>>> Jernigan, Past President, National Federation
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> of the Blind.
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Julie Vogt or
>>>>>>>> jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change
>>>>>>>> your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> for Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your
>>>>>>>> list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> >>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>> >>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list
>>>>>>>> options or get your account info for
>>>>>>>> >>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>>> No virus found in this incoming
>>>>>>>> message.
>>>>>>>> >>>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>>>>>> >>>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database:
>>>>>>>> 270.9.0/1776 - Release Date: 11/8/2008
>>>>>>>> >>>>> 6:49 PM
>>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> >>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>> >>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list
>>>>>>>> options or get your account info for
>>>>>>>> >>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> >>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>> >>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options
>>>>>>>> or get your account info for
>>>>>>>> >>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> >>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>>>>> >>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>>>>>> >>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database:
>>>>>>>> 270.9.0/1778 - Release Date: 11/9/2008
>>>>>>>> >>> 2:14 PM
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> >>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>> >>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or
>>>>>>>> get your account info for
>>>>>>>> >>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> >> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>> >> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get
>>>>>>>> your account info for Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>>>>> > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>>>>>> > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1778 -
>>>>>>>> Release Date: 11/9/2008 2:14 PM
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> > Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>> > Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>> account info for Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> Corey Cook
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>> account info for Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/timber_wolf899%40yahoo.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/lynnwhite51%40sbcglobal.net
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net
>>>>>
>>>> Corey Cook
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1779 - Release Date:
>>> 11/10/2008
>>> 7:53 AM
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1779 - Release Date: 11/10/2008
> 7:53 AM
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>



From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Mon Nov 10 22:59:20 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 17:59:20 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] a good way to pray for someone going through
	surgery
In-Reply-To: <1889132957554700BC7B2FCA29834C42@your4dacd0ea75>
References: <BAY133-DAV328CA6385910367BCA55E901A0@phx.gbl>
	<1889132957554700BC7B2FCA29834C42@your4dacd0ea75>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811101459l17cb053y2ad5b2e7d548124e@mail.gmail.com>

Awwwww.  That's an amazing thing.  ANgels are special and they do
incredible things by somehow floating in our midst whether it is in an
operating room or in front of a stage when the musician performs.
Beth

On 11/10/08, Julie C. Vogt <jcvogt at pressenter.com> wrote:
> That is monsterly incredible.  Thank God for that every day!
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Pat Gormley" <kk3f at msn.com>
> To: <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 9:47 AM
> Subject: [Faith-talk] a good way to pray for someone going through surgery
>
>
>>A couple of weeks ago, Mary my wife went through hernia surgery and before
>>she went in for the surgery, we had a word of prayer that the Great
>>Physician would guide the surgeon's hands so no mistakes are made and the
>>operation would have its intended effect.  This has happened to me more
>>than once.  Back in 1997, two Jewish doctors who performed Tina's gastric
>>bypass surgery came to us when she was in recovery and told us we didn't
>>perform this surgery because they really sensed the presence of angels in
>>the operating room.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1779 - Release Date: 11/10/2008
> 7:53 AM
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>



From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Mon Nov 10 23:32:36 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 17:32:36 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] New School Prayer
References: <20081110151541.EDF581A022F@relay03.roch.ny.frontiernet.net><4383d01d0811101138k20302c90m6cce59379867d0fa@mail.gmail.com><2B4E4E6B50D94C0E956C55B1499070E0@your4dacd0ea75><C28F6637E97540068B52F2F2A0009CB6@Alan>
	<4383d01d0811101447x77cf29a2h12ae7605120a4a0e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D9082DCE31914BBBBAAC327C5309CB2E@Alan>

Actually, it does.  We've kept God out of schools by, essentially, outlawing public prayer.  The Ten Commandments cannot even be displayed outside courthouses any more...and so much more.

Spanking children is now considered a reportable form of abuse.  In stead we're to give our kids "time outs" lest we bruise their tender psyche.  The list goes on and on.


+-+-+-

   There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. 
 1 Samuel 2:2
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 4:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] New School Prayer


> That's weird.  That's totally weird.  But back to the original topic,
> what do you guys think?  Does this poem really talk about the nation?
> I'm sure it does.
> Beth
> 
> On 11/10/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>> Tghere used to be e-mails about the Miller Beer company giving away free
>> beer, or other companies giving away free products if you forwarded the
>> message to a certain number of people.  Thankfully some of those old hoaxes
>> have died.
>>
>>
>> +-+-+-
>>
>>    There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is
>> there any rock like our God.
>>  1 Samuel 2:2
>> ~~~
>>
>> Alan D Wheeler
>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>> Skype: redwheel1
>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>> www.theqonline.net
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Julie C. Vogt" <jcvogt at pressenter.com>
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 3:35 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] New School Prayer
>>
>>
>>> There's all kinds of stuff that goes around the net three times in every
>>> two-year cycle.  There's a thing about Bill Gates giving away money one
>>> that
>>> I get every year and a half that Gates wants to share his wealth with you.
>>>
>>> I also heard that Microsoft would send a hefty reward to anyone who would
>>> disclose that that message was a hoax for any 100 of their friends.  Some
>>> of
>>> this stuff of the net is really freaky.
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 1:38 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] New School Prayer
>>>
>>>
>>>> Interesting.  If that prayer isn't new, then why is it on the net now?
>>>> I thought this might be a good faith topic to discuss.
>>>> Beth
>>>>
>>>> On 11/10/08, Linda Mentink <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
>>>>> Beth and all,
>>>>>
>>>>> That prayer is not new.  It's been around a long time, and is just
>>>>> circulating on the internet again.  I've seen it many times before.
>>>>>
>>>>> Blessings,
>>>>>
>>>>> Linda
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1779 - Release Date: 11/10/2008
>>>
>>> 7:53 AM
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1778 - Release Date: 11/9/2008
>> 2:14 PM
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1779 - Release Date: 11/10/2008 7:53 AM




From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Mon Nov 10 23:51:03 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 18:51:03 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] New School Prayer
In-Reply-To: <D9082DCE31914BBBBAAC327C5309CB2E@Alan>
References: <20081110151541.EDF581A022F@relay03.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
	<4383d01d0811101138k20302c90m6cce59379867d0fa@mail.gmail.com>
	<2B4E4E6B50D94C0E956C55B1499070E0@your4dacd0ea75>
	<C28F6637E97540068B52F2F2A0009CB6@Alan>
	<4383d01d0811101447x77cf29a2h12ae7605120a4a0e@mail.gmail.com>
	<D9082DCE31914BBBBAAC327C5309CB2E@Alan>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811101551q15078a36r599bdf4ec8fe404@mail.gmail.com>

Let's see the list some more, Allan.
Beth

On 11/10/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
> Actually, it does.  We've kept God out of schools by, essentially, outlawing
> public prayer.  The Ten Commandments cannot even be displayed outside
> courthouses any more...and so much more.
>
> Spanking children is now considered a reportable form of abuse.  In stead
> we're to give our kids "time outs" lest we bruise their tender psyche.  The
> list goes on and on.
>
>
> +-+-+-
>
>    There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is
> there any rock like our God.
>  1 Samuel 2:2
> ~~~
>
> Alan D Wheeler
> awheeler at neb.rr.com
> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
> Skype: redwheel1
> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
> www.theqonline.net
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 4:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] New School Prayer
>
>
>> That's weird.  That's totally weird.  But back to the original topic,
>> what do you guys think?  Does this poem really talk about the nation?
>> I'm sure it does.
>> Beth
>>
>> On 11/10/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>> Tghere used to be e-mails about the Miller Beer company giving away free
>>> beer, or other companies giving away free products if you forwarded the
>>> message to a certain number of people.  Thankfully some of those old
>>> hoaxes
>>> have died.
>>>
>>>
>>> +-+-+-
>>>
>>>    There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither
>>> is
>>> there any rock like our God.
>>>  1 Samuel 2:2
>>> ~~~
>>>
>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>> www.theqonline.net
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Julie C. Vogt" <jcvogt at pressenter.com>
>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 3:35 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] New School Prayer
>>>
>>>
>>>> There's all kinds of stuff that goes around the net three times in every
>>>> two-year cycle.  There's a thing about Bill Gates giving away money one
>>>> that
>>>> I get every year and a half that Gates wants to share his wealth with
>>>> you.
>>>>
>>>> I also heard that Microsoft would send a hefty reward to anyone who
>>>> would
>>>> disclose that that message was a hoax for any 100 of their friends.
>>>> Some
>>>> of
>>>> this stuff of the net is really freaky.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 1:38 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] New School Prayer
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Interesting.  If that prayer isn't new, then why is it on the net now?
>>>>> I thought this might be a good faith topic to discuss.
>>>>> Beth
>>>>>
>>>>> On 11/10/08, Linda Mentink <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
>>>>>> Beth and all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That prayer is not new.  It's been around a long time, and is just
>>>>>> circulating on the internet again.  I've seen it many times before.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Blessings,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Linda
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1779 - Release Date:
>>>> 11/10/2008
>>>>
>>>> 7:53 AM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1778 - Release Date: 11/9/2008
>>> 2:14 PM
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1779 - Release Date: 11/10/2008
> 7:53 AM
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>



From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Tue Nov 11 00:12:04 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 18:12:04 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] New School Prayer
References: <20081110151541.EDF581A022F@relay03.roch.ny.frontiernet.net><4383d01d0811101138k20302c90m6cce59379867d0fa@mail.gmail.com><2B4E4E6B50D94C0E956C55B1499070E0@your4dacd0ea75><C28F6637E97540068B52F2F2A0009CB6@Alan><4383d01d0811101447x77cf29a2h12ae7605120a4a0e@mail.gmail.com><D9082DCE31914BBBBAAC327C5309CB2E@Alan>
	<4383d01d0811101551q15078a36r599bdf4ec8fe404@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0394A0E6C1B5451B8C954BD579F42195@Alan>

Okay, telling young people that sex before marriage is wrong gets us told that we're not progressive...or too old fashioned...

If we preach that there is any kjind of sin, that unlike what society says, people are *NOT* basically good within, Christians are called intolerant and narrow-minded.


+-+-+-

   for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, Ephesians 2:8
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 5:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] New School Prayer


> Let's see the list some more, Allan.
> Beth
> 
> On 11/10/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>> Actually, it does.  We've kept God out of schools by, essentially, outlawing
>> public prayer.  The Ten Commandments cannot even be displayed outside
>> courthouses any more...and so much more.
>>
>> Spanking children is now considered a reportable form of abuse.  In stead
>> we're to give our kids "time outs" lest we bruise their tender psyche.  The
>> list goes on and on.
>>
>>
>> +-+-+-
>>
>>    There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is
>> there any rock like our God.
>>  1 Samuel 2:2
>> ~~~
>>
>> Alan D Wheeler
>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>> Skype: redwheel1
>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>> www.theqonline.net
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 4:47 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] New School Prayer
>>
>>
>>> That's weird.  That's totally weird.  But back to the original topic,
>>> what do you guys think?  Does this poem really talk about the nation?
>>> I'm sure it does.
>>> Beth
>>>
>>> On 11/10/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>>> Tghere used to be e-mails about the Miller Beer company giving away free
>>>> beer, or other companies giving away free products if you forwarded the
>>>> message to a certain number of people.  Thankfully some of those old
>>>> hoaxes
>>>> have died.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> +-+-+-
>>>>
>>>>    There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither
>>>> is
>>>> there any rock like our God.
>>>>  1 Samuel 2:2
>>>> ~~~
>>>>
>>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>>> www.theqonline.net
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Julie C. Vogt" <jcvogt at pressenter.com>
>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 3:35 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] New School Prayer
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> There's all kinds of stuff that goes around the net three times in every
>>>>> two-year cycle.  There's a thing about Bill Gates giving away money one
>>>>> that
>>>>> I get every year and a half that Gates wants to share his wealth with
>>>>> you.
>>>>>
>>>>> I also heard that Microsoft would send a hefty reward to anyone who
>>>>> would
>>>>> disclose that that message was a hoax for any 100 of their friends.
>>>>> Some
>>>>> of
>>>>> this stuff of the net is really freaky.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 1:38 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] New School Prayer
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Interesting.  If that prayer isn't new, then why is it on the net now?
>>>>>> I thought this might be a good faith topic to discuss.
>>>>>> Beth
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/10/08, Linda Mentink <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> Beth and all,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That prayer is not new.  It's been around a long time, and is just
>>>>>>> circulating on the internet again.  I've seen it many times before.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Blessings,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Linda
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1779 - Release Date:
>>>>> 11/10/2008
>>>>>
>>>>> 7:53 AM
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1778 - Release Date: 11/9/2008
>>>> 2:14 PM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1779 - Release Date: 11/10/2008
>> 7:53 AM
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1779 - Release Date: 11/10/2008 7:53 AM




From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Tue Nov 11 00:59:31 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 19:59:31 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] New School Prayer
In-Reply-To: <0394A0E6C1B5451B8C954BD579F42195@Alan>
References: <20081110151541.EDF581A022F@relay03.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
	<4383d01d0811101138k20302c90m6cce59379867d0fa@mail.gmail.com>
	<2B4E4E6B50D94C0E956C55B1499070E0@your4dacd0ea75>
	<C28F6637E97540068B52F2F2A0009CB6@Alan>
	<4383d01d0811101447x77cf29a2h12ae7605120a4a0e@mail.gmail.com>
	<D9082DCE31914BBBBAAC327C5309CB2E@Alan>
	<4383d01d0811101551q15078a36r599bdf4ec8fe404@mail.gmail.com>
	<0394A0E6C1B5451B8C954BD579F42195@Alan>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811101659x1e869e36j9af9c687a4eaa863@mail.gmail.com>

Wow.  Unfortunately, I a the product of sex before marriage, so to
hear that sex before mrriage is wrong almost puts me in a bind because
I am the result of sex before marriage.  I was, in fact.  But my mom
ended up meeting Dad later in life, my current dad.
Beth

On 11/10/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
> Okay, telling young people that sex before marriage is wrong gets us told
> that we're not progressive...or too old fashioned...
>
> If we preach that there is any kjind of sin, that unlike what society says,
> people are *NOT* basically good within, Christians are called intolerant and
> narrow-minded.
>
>
> +-+-+-
>
>    for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of
> yourselves; it is the gift of God, Ephesians 2:8
> ~~~
>
> Alan D Wheeler
> awheeler at neb.rr.com
> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
> Skype: redwheel1
> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
> www.theqonline.net
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 5:51 PM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] New School Prayer
>
>
>> Let's see the list some more, Allan.
>> Beth
>>
>> On 11/10/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>> Actually, it does.  We've kept God out of schools by, essentially,
>>> outlawing
>>> public prayer.  The Ten Commandments cannot even be displayed outside
>>> courthouses any more...and so much more.
>>>
>>> Spanking children is now considered a reportable form of abuse.  In stead
>>> we're to give our kids "time outs" lest we bruise their tender psyche.
>>> The
>>> list goes on and on.
>>>
>>>
>>> +-+-+-
>>>
>>>    There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither
>>> is
>>> there any rock like our God.
>>>  1 Samuel 2:2
>>> ~~~
>>>
>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>> www.theqonline.net
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 4:47 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] New School Prayer
>>>
>>>
>>>> That's weird.  That's totally weird.  But back to the original topic,
>>>> what do you guys think?  Does this poem really talk about the nation?
>>>> I'm sure it does.
>>>> Beth
>>>>
>>>> On 11/10/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>> Tghere used to be e-mails about the Miller Beer company giving away
>>>>> free
>>>>> beer, or other companies giving away free products if you forwarded the
>>>>> message to a certain number of people.  Thankfully some of those old
>>>>> hoaxes
>>>>> have died.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> +-+-+-
>>>>>
>>>>>    There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee:
>>>>> neither
>>>>> is
>>>>> there any rock like our God.
>>>>>  1 Samuel 2:2
>>>>> ~~~
>>>>>
>>>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>>>> www.theqonline.net
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Julie C. Vogt" <jcvogt at pressenter.com>
>>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 3:35 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] New School Prayer
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> There's all kinds of stuff that goes around the net three times in
>>>>>> every
>>>>>> two-year cycle.  There's a thing about Bill Gates giving away money
>>>>>> one
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> I get every year and a half that Gates wants to share his wealth with
>>>>>> you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I also heard that Microsoft would send a hefty reward to anyone who
>>>>>> would
>>>>>> disclose that that message was a hoax for any 100 of their friends.
>>>>>> Some
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> this stuff of the net is really freaky.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 1:38 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] New School Prayer
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Interesting.  If that prayer isn't new, then why is it on the net
>>>>>>> now?
>>>>>>> I thought this might be a good faith topic to discuss.
>>>>>>> Beth
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 11/10/08, Linda Mentink <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Beth and all,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That prayer is not new.  It's been around a long time, and is just
>>>>>>>> circulating on the internet again.  I've seen it many times before.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Blessings,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Linda
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1779 - Release Date:
>>>>>> 11/10/2008
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 7:53 AM
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1778 - Release Date:
>>>>> 11/9/2008
>>>>> 2:14 PM
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1779 - Release Date:
>>> 11/10/2008
>>> 7:53 AM
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1779 - Release Date: 11/10/2008
> 7:53 AM
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>



From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Tue Nov 11 01:07:32 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 20:07:32 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Emailing: Last Days Ministries Do You Feel Like
	Giving Up
In-Reply-To: <88FD1E095EB4484DB25529FAD2012DDC@Buster>
References: <88FD1E095EB4484DB25529FAD2012DDC@Buster>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811101707y66791fb1je28657fa2d0522d6@mail.gmail.com>

I sometimes feel like giving up when I don't see enough young men out
there who are actually close to my age, so I felt for a while I was
stuck with guys like my friend who I don't curently talk to.
Beth

On 11/10/08, WESLEY BURDEN <wesley.burden at verizon.net> wrote:
> 	
>
>
>  <http://lastdaysministries.org/Default.aspx> aaaldmlogo
>
>
>
> Home
> |
> LDM
> |
> Keith Green
> |
> Melody Green
> |
> AAA Pro Life
> |
> Orphanage
> |
> Store
>
>
>  ldmbanner
> <http://lastdaysministries.org/Images/Content/1000000028/1000023279.jpg>
>
>   <http://lastdaysministries.org/Images/Content/>
>
>
>
>
>  papershadowleft
> <http://lastdaysministries.org/Images/Content/1000000028/1000020383.gif>
>
>
>
>  UserscaroldegraffDesktopLDM Ar
> <http://lastdaysministries.org/Images/content/1000000028/1000037556.jpg> Do
> You Feel Like Giving Up?
>
>
>
> David Wilkerson
>
> A growing number of ministers have been writing to me in recent months,
> telling of their concern for those in their flock who are simply giving up.
> Today, more and more Christians are at the breaking point. None of the talk
> about giving up has to do with the Lord. Few Christians would even dare
> entertain thoughts of quitting on their love for Jesus. Most despairing
> Christians think only of giving up on themselves. You hear it so often now,
> "I can't go on anymore. I just can't make it. It's totally hopeless! Why
> try?"
>
> I hear some ministers today who continually preach only a positive message.
> To hear them tell it, every Christian is receiving miracles-everybody is
> getting instant answers to prayer-everybody's feeling good, living good, and
> the whole world is bright and rosy. I really wish all those good and healthy
> things for God's people, but that's not the way things are for a great
> number of very honest and sincere Christians. How sad to hear such shallow
> theology being pushed from pulpits today. It's an insult to a lowly Jesus
> who became poor, who died a failure in the eyes of the world. It is this
> kind of materialistic preaching that has so ill-prepared an entire
> generation of Christians to endure any kind of pain. They have not learned
> to be content with such things as they have-to be abased and not always
> abounding. Serving God becomes a kind of Olympic race in which everyone must
> strive for gold medals.
>
> No wonder our young people give up in defeat. They can't live up to the
> image created by the religion of a happy-go-lucky, rich, successful, always
> positive-thinking Christian. Their world is not that idealistic. They look
> in a mirror reflecting a face covered with ugly pimples. They live with
> heartbreaks, hour-by-hour crises, and horrible family problems. They look
> into the uncertain future, frightened and worried.
>
> Positive thinking won't make their problems go away. Confessing that these
> problems don't really exist doesn't change a thing. These "apostles of the
> positive" should not exclude the Gethsemane experiences of life. The cup of
> pain, the hour of isolation, and the night of confusion were all part of the
> Master's lifestyle. Our great achievements, our successes, ought to take
> place at Gethsemane, not Fort Knox!
>
> The sawdust trail for many has become the gold dust trail. The Bible has
> become a catalog, with unlimited order blanks for life's goodies. Anything
> having to do with Job-like pain and suffering is considered negative. God is
> good and one should always think on good and honest reports-but pain,
> poverty, and suffering have befallen some of the saintliest of God's
> people-just like righteous Job.
>
>
> Marriage
>
> What do you say to that wife whose home is breaking up and she seems
> powerless to stop it? She's been advised by her friends, counseled by her
> pastor, and has been exhorted over and over again to "stay on your knees and
> believe God for a miracle." So she fasts, and she prays. She bends over
> backwards, to the point of crawling on her knees to her husband. She
> exercises faith with every ability she possesses. But in spite of all her
> honest efforts, he grows hard and bitter, demanding a divorce.
>
> Not all marriages are healed through prayer or good intentions. It takes two
> to make a marriage work, and even though prayer may bring down the power of
> Holy Ghost conviction upon a straying mate, that mate can resist all God's
> efforts and abort the solution.
>
> Some may be wondering why I've spent so much time lately talking about
> marriage, divorce, and the home. The reason is simple enough. In my
> crusades, I talk to so many kids on the brink of suicide. An overwhelming
> majority tell me their depression stems from trouble at home. Their parents
> are having trouble, or they have already gotten a divorce.
>
> Multitudes of husbands and wives are giving up on their marriages. A
> successful marriage counselor took me to lunch recently, and before the
> entree was served, he confessed his own marriage had been in jeopardy. "You
> just can't take any good marriage for granted anymore," he said. "I'm
> convinced Satan is determined to break up my marriage-and every good
> Christian marriage. It's a well-planned attack on the best of marriages. If
> Satan can get the strongest, most admired marriages broken up-then weaker
> ones will be tempted to quit struggling and give up."
>
> The secret struggles in the Christian's personal life are just as critical.
> The inner battles of the average Christian today are staggering in intensity
> and proportion. Multitudes are involved in situations too hard to
> comprehend.
>
> Paul said, "For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened.
> "(II Cor. 5:4) I doubt we could even count the great numbers of Christians
> who groan in secret because of the burdens they carry. Paul also talked
> about "...affliction which came to us...we were burdened excessively, beyond
> our strength, so that we despaired even of life." (II Cor. 1:8)
>
> If you pulled back the facade from every great preacher and every admired
> personality, you would find moments of deep depression. You would find the
> same infirmities you find in any normal Christian. We all have seasons of
> despair accompanied by feelings of failure. At times, we have all thought of
> quitting. We have all had thoughts of giving up. Why do we feel like giving
> up at times? Mostly because we act like God has forsaken the earth. We don't
> doubt His existence or His reality. But our prayers seem to go unanswered.
> We cry out for His help in such desperation, and He seems not to hear. We
> struggle along, making one mistake after another. We make promises to do
> better, we get into the Bible, we cry and pray, and stay busy helping others
> and doing good. But we are so often left with an empty, unfulfilled
> sensation. The promises of God haunt us. We hold onto those promises-in what
> we believe is honest, childlike faith-but time after time we fail to receive
> what we ask for. In the hour of temptation-down we go!
>
> Doubt creeps in and Satan whispers, "Nothing works. Faith in God doesn't
> produce results. In spite of your tears, prayers, and trust in God's
> Word-nothing really changes. Days, weeks, and even years go by, and your
> prayers, hopes, and dreams are still unanswered and unfulfilled. Quit! Give
> up!"
>
> Every Christian on this planet reaches that crisis point at one time or
> another in life. And in that moment, when the walls seem to be caving in and
> the roof appears to be collapsing, when everything seems to be coming apart,
> a voice deep within cries out, "Walk away from it all ... Pack it in!
> Escape! Why put up with it? Run away . . . you don't have to take it. Do
> something drastic!"
>
> David, overwhelmed by the evil in his heart, cried out to God, "Awake, why
> do you sleep? Cast me not off...why do you hide? Why do you forget?" (Psalm
> 44:23-24)
>
> Christian-does it amaze you that great men of old faced the same battles you
> and I face today? The Bible says, "Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery
> ordeal among you, which comes upon you for your testing, as though some
> strange thing were happening to you; but to the degree that you share the
> sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing, so that also at the revelation of
> His glory, you may rejoice with exultation." (I Peter 4:12-13)
>
> How can we learn to hold on and live one day at a time? You can begin by
> forgetting all short cuts and magic cures. The Christian doesn't need a
> supposed demon of despair cast out, as if his going would make life easier.
> Nor will God come down and do our living for us. The tempter will not be
> destroyed until that day God casts him into prison. Satan will always be
> here, deceiving, accusing, and trying to rob every believer of his faith.
>
> The longer I live for Christ, the more difficult it is for me to accept
> easy, cure-all solutions. But in my own struggles, I've found great comfort
> and help in two wonderful absolutes.
>
> The first absolute is: God really loves me. God is not in the business of
> condemning His children-failures or not. He yearns over us as a loving
> father, wanting only to lift us out of our weaknesses.
>
> I caught a glimpse of that love recently while walking in the woods around
> our ranch. Suddenly, there on the ground just ahead flopped a crippled
> little bird. I stooped to pick it up. It was then a familiar Scripture came
> flashing through my mind. "Are not two sparrows sold for a cent? And yet not
> one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father." (Matt. 10:29)
>
> God is with us, even when we fall. He does not abandon us on our way down.
> Our Lord never gives up on any of us!
>
> Have you also fallen? Do you relate to that crippled sparrow, flopping
> helplessly in the dust? Are you wounded, hurting, and feeling lost and
> lonely? Do you ever think to yourself, "How can God put up with someone like
> me? How can He still love me when I've failed Him so badly?"
>
> Often, we can recognize His great love only when we have hit bottom. Don't
> panic. Deliverance will come. God answers us by showing His love. And when
> we have learned how weak we are and have learned to trust His love and
> forgiveness-He will stoop down and gently help us back to the nest.
>
> The second absolute is: It is my faith that pleases Him the most! "Without
> faith it is impossible to please Him." (Heb. 11:6) God wants so much to be
> trusted. That trust He counts as righteousness. (Rom. 4:3)
>
> What do I do when temptation rolls over me like a flood? When my
> inadequacies overwhelm me and I see the reality of my weaknesses? Give up?
> Quit? Never!! I bring to God all I've got left-my faith in Him! I may not
> understand why He seems to take such a long time to intervene, but I know He
> will. He will keep His word to me.
>
> I am convinced Satan wants to rob me of only one thing-my faith. He really
> doesn't want my morals or good deeds or my dreams. He wants to destroy my
> faith and make me believe God has forsaken this earth.
>
> A fall is never fatal to those who keep their faith intact. In spite of
> despair and pressures that bog the mind and sap the strength, I believe God.
> I believe He will "keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the
> presence of His glory blameless with great joy." (Jude 24)
>
>
>
> Reprinted by permission from David Wilkerson Crusades; excerpted from Mr.
> Wilkerson's book, "Have You Felt Like Giving Up Lately?", Fleming H. Revell,
> Publishers.
>
>
>
>
>
> David Wilkerson, 2/21/2007
>
>  	
>
>
>
>
> Mary
> <http://lastdaysministries.org/Articles/1000030834/Last_Days_Ministries/LDM/
> Discipleship_Teachings/Mary_of_Nazareth.aspx> of Nazareth	
> Article of the life of Mary More
> <http://lastdaysministries.org/Articles/1000030834/Last_Days_Ministries/LDM/
> Discipleship_Teachings/Mary_of_Nazareth.aspx> ... 	
> Melody Green	
>
> Zeal:
> <http://lastdaysministries.org/Articles/1000008658/Last_Days_Ministries/LDM/
> Discipleship_Teachings/Zeal_Love_Ablaze.aspx> Love Ablaze!	
> Enoch had prophesied, saying, "Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of
> His holy ones." I More
> <http://lastdaysministries.org/Articles/1000008658/Last_Days_Ministries/LDM/
> Discipleship_Teachings/Zeal_Love_Ablaze.aspx> ... 	
> Leonard Ravenhill	
>
> Your
> <http://lastdaysministries.org/Articles/1000008657/Last_Days_Ministries/LDM/
> Discipleship_Teachings/Your_Day_In.aspx> Day In Court	
> In a very brief and very brilliant biography of a famous English preacher,
> one of the greatest preachers that ever preached in America or England, it
> says that he had some very strange habits. More
> <http://lastdaysministries.org/Articles/1000008657/Last_Days_Ministries/LDM/
> Discipleship_Teachings/Your_Day_In.aspx> ... 	
> Leonard Ravenhill	
>
> You
> <http://lastdaysministries.org/Articles/1000008656/Last_Days_Ministries/LDM/
> Discipleship_Teachings/You_Are_A.aspx> Are A Dangerous Generation	
> So it is with your generation. More
> <http://lastdaysministries.org/Articles/1000008656/Last_Days_Ministries/LDM/
> Discipleship_Teachings/You_Are_A.aspx> ... 	
> Melody Green	
>
>  <http://lastdaysministries.org/publisher/rss.xml?group=1000008837> 	
>
>  papershadowright
> <http://lastdaysministries.org/Images/Content/1000000028/1000020384.gif>
>
>
>  <http://www.churchinsight.com/> Insight by Endis	 Low Graphics
> <http://lastdaysministries.org/Mobile/default.aspx?home=yes>  | Copyright
> <http://lastdaysministries.org/User/Copyright.aspx>  | T
> <http://lastdaysministries.org/User/TermsAndConditions.aspx> &Cs | Privacy
> <http://lastdaysministries.org/User/PrivacyPolicy.aspx>  | Help
> <http://lastdaysministries.org/User/Help.aspx>  	
> 	
>
>
>   _____
>
>



From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Tue Nov 11 03:03:38 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 21:03:38 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] New School Prayer
References: <20081110151541.EDF581A022F@relay03.roch.ny.frontiernet.net><4383d01d0811101138k20302c90m6cce59379867d0fa@mail.gmail.com><2B4E4E6B50D94C0E956C55B1499070E0@your4dacd0ea75><C28F6637E97540068B52F2F2A0009CB6@Alan><4383d01d0811101447x77cf29a2h12ae7605120a4a0e@mail.gmail.com><D9082DCE31914BBBBAAC327C5309CB2E@Alan><4383d01d0811101551q15078a36r599bdf4ec8fe404@mail.gmail.com><0394A0E6C1B5451B8C954BD579F42195@Alan>
	<4383d01d0811101659x1e869e36j9af9c687a4eaa863@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1C75934A1D44487B82F5F1D46820330A@Alan>

Actually, it doesn't put you in a bind.  It was the actions of your parents, you had no choice, no say in it, so God isn't looking down on you for their choices.


+-+-+-

   We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, to those 
who are called according to his purpose.
 Romans 8:28
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 6:59 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] New School Prayer


> Wow.  Unfortunately, I a the product of sex before marriage, so to
> hear that sex before mrriage is wrong almost puts me in a bind because
> I am the result of sex before marriage.  I was, in fact.  But my mom
> ended up meeting Dad later in life, my current dad.
> Beth
> 
> On 11/10/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>> Okay, telling young people that sex before marriage is wrong gets us told
>> that we're not progressive...or too old fashioned...
>>
>> If we preach that there is any kjind of sin, that unlike what society says,
>> people are *NOT* basically good within, Christians are called intolerant and
>> narrow-minded.
>>
>>
>> +-+-+-
>>
>>    for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of
>> yourselves; it is the gift of God, Ephesians 2:8
>> ~~~
>>
>> Alan D Wheeler
>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>> Skype: redwheel1
>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>> www.theqonline.net
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 5:51 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] New School Prayer
>>
>>
>>> Let's see the list some more, Allan.
>>> Beth
>>>
>>> On 11/10/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>>> Actually, it does.  We've kept God out of schools by, essentially,
>>>> outlawing
>>>> public prayer.  The Ten Commandments cannot even be displayed outside
>>>> courthouses any more...and so much more.
>>>>
>>>> Spanking children is now considered a reportable form of abuse.  In stead
>>>> we're to give our kids "time outs" lest we bruise their tender psyche.
>>>> The
>>>> list goes on and on.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> +-+-+-
>>>>
>>>>    There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither
>>>> is
>>>> there any rock like our God.
>>>>  1 Samuel 2:2
>>>> ~~~
>>>>
>>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>>> www.theqonline.net
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 4:47 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] New School Prayer
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> That's weird.  That's totally weird.  But back to the original topic,
>>>>> what do you guys think?  Does this poem really talk about the nation?
>>>>> I'm sure it does.
>>>>> Beth
>>>>>
>>>>> On 11/10/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Tghere used to be e-mails about the Miller Beer company giving away
>>>>>> free
>>>>>> beer, or other companies giving away free products if you forwarded the
>>>>>> message to a certain number of people.  Thankfully some of those old
>>>>>> hoaxes
>>>>>> have died.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> +-+-+-
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee:
>>>>>> neither
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> there any rock like our God.
>>>>>>  1 Samuel 2:2
>>>>>> ~~~
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>>>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>>>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>>>>> www.theqonline.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Julie C. Vogt" <jcvogt at pressenter.com>
>>>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 3:35 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] New School Prayer
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There's all kinds of stuff that goes around the net three times in
>>>>>>> every
>>>>>>> two-year cycle.  There's a thing about Bill Gates giving away money
>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> I get every year and a half that Gates wants to share his wealth with
>>>>>>> you.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I also heard that Microsoft would send a hefty reward to anyone who
>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>> disclose that that message was a hoax for any 100 of their friends.
>>>>>>> Some
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> this stuff of the net is really freaky.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 1:38 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] New School Prayer
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Interesting.  If that prayer isn't new, then why is it on the net
>>>>>>>> now?
>>>>>>>> I thought this might be a good faith topic to discuss.
>>>>>>>> Beth
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 11/10/08, Linda Mentink <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Beth and all,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That prayer is not new.  It's been around a long time, and is just
>>>>>>>>> circulating on the internet again.  I've seen it many times before.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Blessings,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Linda
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>>>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1779 - Release Date:
>>>>>>> 11/10/2008
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 7:53 AM
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1778 - Release Date:
>>>>>> 11/9/2008
>>>>>> 2:14 PM
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1779 - Release Date:
>>>> 11/10/2008
>>>> 7:53 AM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1779 - Release Date: 11/10/2008
>> 7:53 AM
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1779 - Release Date: 11/10/2008 7:53 AM




From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Tue Nov 11 04:01:04 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 22:01:04 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] New School Prayer
References: <20081110151541.EDF581A022F@relay03.roch.ny.frontiernet.net><4383d01d0811101138k20302c90m6cce59379867d0fa@mail.gmail.com><2B4E4E6B50D94C0E956C55B1499070E0@your4dacd0ea75><C28F6637E97540068B52F2F2A0009CB6@Alan><4383d01d0811101447x77cf29a2h12ae7605120a4a0e@mail.gmail.com><D9082DCE31914BBBBAAC327C5309CB2E@Alan><4383d01d0811101551q15078a36r599bdf4ec8fe404@mail.gmail.com>
	<0394A0E6C1B5451B8C954BD579F42195@Alan>
Message-ID: <8EFE995543C345F8AAC07FF2821E852C@your4dacd0ea75>

People are looking for church leadership to be examples.  You don't often 
see that any more.  They're spiritual giants because they have mega-churches 
with 5,000 members and people don't see that private side that becomes 
public.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Alan Wheeler" <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 6:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] New School Prayer


> Okay, telling young people that sex before marriage is wrong gets us told 
> that we're not progressive...or too old fashioned...
>
> If we preach that there is any kjind of sin, that unlike what society 
> says, people are *NOT* basically good within, Christians are called 
> intolerant and narrow-minded.
>
>
> +-+-+-
>
>   for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of 
> yourselves; it is the gift of God, Ephesians 2:8
> ~~~
>
> Alan D Wheeler
> awheeler at neb.rr.com
> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
> Skype: redwheel1
> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at 
> www.theqonline.net
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 5:51 PM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] New School Prayer
>
>
>> Let's see the list some more, Allan.
>> Beth
>>
>> On 11/10/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>> Actually, it does.  We've kept God out of schools by, essentially, 
>>> outlawing
>>> public prayer.  The Ten Commandments cannot even be displayed outside
>>> courthouses any more...and so much more.
>>>
>>> Spanking children is now considered a reportable form of abuse.  In 
>>> stead
>>> we're to give our kids "time outs" lest we bruise their tender psyche. 
>>> The
>>> list goes on and on.
>>>
>>>
>>> +-+-+-
>>>
>>>    There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: 
>>> neither is
>>> there any rock like our God.
>>>  1 Samuel 2:2
>>> ~~~
>>>
>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>> www.theqonline.net
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 4:47 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] New School Prayer
>>>
>>>
>>>> That's weird.  That's totally weird.  But back to the original topic,
>>>> what do you guys think?  Does this poem really talk about the nation?
>>>> I'm sure it does.
>>>> Beth
>>>>
>>>> On 11/10/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>> Tghere used to be e-mails about the Miller Beer company giving away 
>>>>> free
>>>>> beer, or other companies giving away free products if you forwarded 
>>>>> the
>>>>> message to a certain number of people.  Thankfully some of those old
>>>>> hoaxes
>>>>> have died.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> +-+-+-
>>>>>
>>>>>    There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: 
>>>>> neither
>>>>> is
>>>>> there any rock like our God.
>>>>>  1 Samuel 2:2
>>>>> ~~~
>>>>>
>>>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>>>> www.theqonline.net
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Julie C. Vogt" <jcvogt at pressenter.com>
>>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 3:35 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] New School Prayer
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> There's all kinds of stuff that goes around the net three times in 
>>>>>> every
>>>>>> two-year cycle.  There's a thing about Bill Gates giving away money 
>>>>>> one
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> I get every year and a half that Gates wants to share his wealth with
>>>>>> you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I also heard that Microsoft would send a hefty reward to anyone who
>>>>>> would
>>>>>> disclose that that message was a hoax for any 100 of their friends.
>>>>>> Some
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> this stuff of the net is really freaky.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 1:38 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] New School Prayer
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Interesting.  If that prayer isn't new, then why is it on the net 
>>>>>>> now?
>>>>>>> I thought this might be a good faith topic to discuss.
>>>>>>> Beth
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 11/10/08, Linda Mentink <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Beth and all,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That prayer is not new.  It's been around a long time, and is just
>>>>>>>> circulating on the internet again.  I've seen it many times before.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Blessings,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Linda
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1779 - Release Date:
>>>>>> 11/10/2008
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 7:53 AM
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1778 - Release Date: 
>>>>> 11/9/2008
>>>>> 2:14 PM
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1779 - Release Date: 
>>> 11/10/2008
>>> 7:53 AM
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1779 - Release Date: 11/10/2008 
> 7:53 AM
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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7:53 AM




From everettg at successfuladaptations.com  Tue Nov 11 05:56:33 2008
From: everettg at successfuladaptations.com (Everett Gavel)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 00:56:33 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Quote from Romans?
Message-ID: <000301c943c2$4022f900$5b9ef44c@IBMB7D6F383D44>

Hi all,

Earlier today I read someone's mention here of a verse 
in scripture, in Romans.  It was about something like, 
we have not yet shed blood?

Though I don't remember the exact phrase, I remember 
there was the word 'blood' in it, as the example given. 
I just searched the New Testament for the word blood 
(www.biblegateway.com), and nowhere in Romans does it 
find any similar sounding quote.

Can someone please help?  I'd like to know if it's 
actually scriptural, as it was a great quote.  ;-)


Thanks,
Everett













From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Tue Nov 11 08:50:52 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 02:50:52 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Quote from Romans?
References: <000301c943c2$4022f900$5b9ef44c@IBMB7D6F383D44>
Message-ID: <D546F70F54BD48EAAB366F4388312D3C@Alan>

Actually, they said it was Ephesians.  I couldn't find a verse like what they were talking about though.




+-+-+-

   Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God remains in him, and he in God. 
 1 John 4:15
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Everett Gavel" <everettg at successfuladaptations.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 11:56 PM
Subject: [Faith-talk] Quote from Romans?


> Hi all,
> 
> Earlier today I read someone's mention here of a verse 
> in scripture, in Romans.  It was about something like, 
> we have not yet shed blood?
> 
> Though I don't remember the exact phrase, I remember 
> there was the word 'blood' in it, as the example given. 
> I just searched the New Testament for the word blood 
> (www.biblegateway.com), and nowhere in Romans does it 
> find any similar sounding quote.
> 
> Can someone please help?  I'd like to know if it's 
> actually scriptural, as it was a great quote.  ;-)
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> Everett
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1779 - Release Date: 11/10/2008 7:53 AM




From lauraeaves at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 11 09:55:37 2008
From: lauraeaves at yahoo.com (tribble)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 03:55:37 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] sunday school experience
Message-ID: <B29DBBAB5CFF433AACF16FF3168572F8@bassclef>

Hello all --
I appreciated all your suggestions for managing my sunday school class -- As 
for how it went on sunday, I was impressed at how good the kids were -- for 
discipline and participation I'd say it went extremely well -- but I did 
have trouble reading my braille notes.  I am a slow braille reader and this 
made it necessary for me to pause a few times while I tried to figure out 
what was in my notes.  But I came prepared with lots of computer generated 
signs with quotes on them to post in class, and that helped a lot.  One 
thing: I think the leadership were a little nervous about me handling my new 
assignment. The sunday school president came and sat in on my class. I had 
also asked a friend to sit in and help me the first day. And am I glad I did 
that -- she was a great help.
I don't know what is going to happen next week.
I still feel more than a little daunted by this assignment, as I not only 
can't see the students, but I'm also in a wheelchair and so am a bit low in 
the saddle...
But even if they decide to take me off this assignment, I don't want to go 
out without at least trying my best.
Any suggestions are welcome.

As for staying on this list -- I had forgotten how volumous the traffic is 
on this list. I may have to unsubscribe as I don't have time to read it all. 
But if anyone has any more comments on managing a room full of 12 and 13 
year olds, I am going to stay subscribed for a few days.

Thanks in advance, and have a great week!
--le




From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Tue Nov 11 11:27:14 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 05:27:14 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] sunday school experience
References: <B29DBBAB5CFF433AACF16FF3168572F8@bassclef>
Message-ID: <3A7853BF75A1408C81D0788081E046D4@Alan>

Laura,
Something for you to consider is finding resources at the web site of Joni Eareckson Tada: http://www.joniandfriends.org/index.php
 

Hopefully you can find some ideas and materials to help you, or at the very least some encouragement in what you are trying to do.

Below I am pasting the little welcome paragraph from the main page of the site:

"Welcome to Joni and Friends. Joni Eareckson Tada founded the ministry in 1979 to communicate the gospel and equip Christ-honoring churches worldwide to evangelize and disciple people affected by disabilities."



 

+-+-+-

   for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, Ephesians 2:8
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "tribble" <lauraeaves at yahoo.com>
To: <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 3:55 AM
Subject: [Faith-talk] sunday school experience


> Hello all --
> I appreciated all your suggestions for managing my sunday school class -- As 
> for how it went on sunday, I was impressed at how good the kids were -- for 
> discipline and participation I'd say it went extremely well -- but I did 
> have trouble reading my braille notes.  I am a slow braille reader and this 
> made it necessary for me to pause a few times while I tried to figure out 
> what was in my notes.  But I came prepared with lots of computer generated 
> signs with quotes on them to post in class, and that helped a lot.  One 
> thing: I think the leadership were a little nervous about me handling my new 
> assignment. The sunday school president came and sat in on my class. I had 
> also asked a friend to sit in and help me the first day. And am I glad I did 
> that -- she was a great help.
> I don't know what is going to happen next week.
> I still feel more than a little daunted by this assignment, as I not only 
> can't see the students, but I'm also in a wheelchair and so am a bit low in 
> the saddle...
> But even if they decide to take me off this assignment, I don't want to go 
> out without at least trying my best.
> Any suggestions are welcome.
> 
> As for staying on this list -- I had forgotten how volumous the traffic is 
> on this list. I may have to unsubscribe as I don't have time to read it all. 
> But if anyone has any more comments on managing a room full of 12 and 13 
> year olds, I am going to stay subscribed for a few days.
> 
> Thanks in advance, and have a great week!
> --le
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
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From poetlori8 at msn.com  Tue Nov 11 12:29:41 2008
From: poetlori8 at msn.com (Barbara Hammel)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 06:29:41 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] article 1
In-Reply-To: <5F3A84795F784BB39F938F35FB1FD13B@TheCooksPC><540AD6D7A71946E7A883D27649F2C41F@nickf1758c2c9d><4383d01d0811092239n65ce4819jbbe399d2bc8f7b2e@mail.gmail.com><7BA2EBD04E794D8DA0FDE7146088DA8F@your4dacd0ea75><20081110174451.64F191A02D1@relay03.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
	<219F4D21C6704C3BA6F11AB4D51BACE9@your4dacd0ea75>
References: <5F3A84795F784BB39F938F35FB1FD13B@TheCooksPC><540AD6D7A71946E7A883D27649F2C41F@nickf1758c2c9d><4383d01d0811092239n65ce4819jbbe399d2bc8f7b2e@mail.gmail.com><7BA2EBD04E794D8DA0FDE7146088DA8F@your4dacd0ea75><20081110174451.64F191A02D1@relay03.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
	<219F4D21C6704C3BA6F11AB4D51BACE9@your4dacd0ea75>
Message-ID: <BAY113-DS492E42F48AC23D01F6BC9EB150@phx.gbl>

Besides wording it "for procreation purposes", how else could you word it? 
Man was not made to fit with man, nor woman with woman.
Barbara

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Julie C. Vogt" <jcvogt at pressenter.com>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 3:26 PM
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] article 1

> It's being disputed now so that it can be the only way to block gay 
> marriages.  I heard about it last Friday.
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Linda Mentink" <mentink at frontiernet.net>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 11:44 AM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] article 1
>
>
>>I haven't heard anything about anyone saying that marriage can only
>> be done for procreative purpose.  I don't believe that will happen
>> any time soon, so go ahead and continue your relationship.
>>
>> At 11:13 AM 11/10/2008, you wrote:
>>>But if you're 80 and they pass a bill saying that marriage can only
>>>be done for procreative reasons, what are you going to do then?
>>>
>>>
>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>><faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 12:39 AM
>>>Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] article 1
>>>
>>>
>>>>Forget it.  California already did this, and so did Florida on
>>>>Proposition 2.  I'm done here.  This guy is speaking a bunch of tosh
>>>>here.  Marriage is no longer just a breeding thing.  It's love as
>>>>well.  I mean, if I were eighty years old and couldn't have kids,
>>>>could I still marry?  Yes.  I can't breed, but I could still marry.
>>>>Now, marriage then is not about breeding.  I don't see why his
>>>>argument had to go overboard.  Gay marriage to me is a civil rights
>>>>issue as much as it is for me a civil rights issue that we blind
>>>>people get to vote on things like what was passed in California and
>>>>Florida.
>>>>Beth
>>>>
>>>>On 11/9/08, trising at sbcglobal.net <trising at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>Great article!
>>>>>
>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>Faith-talk:
>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>for Faith-talk:
>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>>>
>>>
>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1779 - Release Date:
>>>11/10/2008 7:53 AM
>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Faith-talk mailing list
>>>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>for Faith-talk:
>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1779 - Release Date: 11/10/2008 
> 7:53 AM
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
> 



From poetlori8 at msn.com  Tue Nov 11 12:36:44 2008
From: poetlori8 at msn.com (Barbara Hammel)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 06:36:44 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] New School Prayer
In-Reply-To: <20081110151541.EDF581A022F@relay03.roch.ny.frontiernet.net><4383d01d0811101138k20302c90m6cce59379867d0fa@mail.gmail.com><2B4E4E6B50D94C0E956C55B1499070E0@your4dacd0ea75><C28F6637E97540068B52F2F2A0009CB6@Alan><4383d01d0811101447x77cf29a2h12ae7605120a4a0e@mail.gmail.com><D9082DCE31914BBBBAAC327C5309CB2E@Alan><4383d01d0811101551q15078a36r599bdf4ec8fe404@mail.gmail.com>
	<0394A0E6C1B5451B8C954BD579F42195@Alan>
References: <20081110151541.EDF581A022F@relay03.roch.ny.frontiernet.net><4383d01d0811101138k20302c90m6cce59379867d0fa@mail.gmail.com><2B4E4E6B50D94C0E956C55B1499070E0@your4dacd0ea75><C28F6637E97540068B52F2F2A0009CB6@Alan><4383d01d0811101447x77cf29a2h12ae7605120a4a0e@mail.gmail.com><D9082DCE31914BBBBAAC327C5309CB2E@Alan><4383d01d0811101551q15078a36r599bdf4ec8fe404@mail.gmail.com>
	<0394A0E6C1B5451B8C954BD579F42195@Alan>
Message-ID: <BAY113-DS5C279EDE008440213D01DEB150@phx.gbl>

I've a pastor that preached a sermon on premarital sex.  He said he tells 
his sons that if they're not dating to find a mate, they're dating to mate. 
Inspired me to write a poem about it.  I think that's one of a few times 
I've heard a pastor touch that.
Barbara

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Alan Wheeler" <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 6:12 PM
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] New School Prayer

> Okay, telling young people that sex before marriage is wrong gets us told 
> that we're not progressive...or too old fashioned...
>
> If we preach that there is any kjind of sin, that unlike what society 
> says, people are *NOT* basically good within, Christians are called 
> intolerant and narrow-minded.
>
>
> +-+-+-
>
>   for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of 
> yourselves; it is the gift of God, Ephesians 2:8
> ~~~
>
> Alan D Wheeler
> awheeler at neb.rr.com
> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
> Skype: redwheel1
> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at 
> www.theqonline.net
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 5:51 PM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] New School Prayer
>
>
>> Let's see the list some more, Allan.
>> Beth
>>
>> On 11/10/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>> Actually, it does.  We've kept God out of schools by, essentially, 
>>> outlawing
>>> public prayer.  The Ten Commandments cannot even be displayed outside
>>> courthouses any more...and so much more.
>>>
>>> Spanking children is now considered a reportable form of abuse.  In 
>>> stead
>>> we're to give our kids "time outs" lest we bruise their tender psyche. 
>>> The
>>> list goes on and on.
>>>
>>>
>>> +-+-+-
>>>
>>>    There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: 
>>> neither is
>>> there any rock like our God.
>>>  1 Samuel 2:2
>>> ~~~
>>>
>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>> www.theqonline.net
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 4:47 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] New School Prayer
>>>
>>>
>>>> That's weird.  That's totally weird.  But back to the original topic,
>>>> what do you guys think?  Does this poem really talk about the nation?
>>>> I'm sure it does.
>>>> Beth
>>>>
>>>> On 11/10/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>> Tghere used to be e-mails about the Miller Beer company giving away 
>>>>> free
>>>>> beer, or other companies giving away free products if you forwarded 
>>>>> the
>>>>> message to a certain number of people.  Thankfully some of those old
>>>>> hoaxes
>>>>> have died.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> +-+-+-
>>>>>
>>>>>    There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: 
>>>>> neither
>>>>> is
>>>>> there any rock like our God.
>>>>>  1 Samuel 2:2
>>>>> ~~~
>>>>>
>>>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>>>> www.theqonline.net
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Julie C. Vogt" <jcvogt at pressenter.com>
>>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 3:35 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] New School Prayer
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> There's all kinds of stuff that goes around the net three times in 
>>>>>> every
>>>>>> two-year cycle.  There's a thing about Bill Gates giving away money 
>>>>>> one
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> I get every year and a half that Gates wants to share his wealth with
>>>>>> you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I also heard that Microsoft would send a hefty reward to anyone who
>>>>>> would
>>>>>> disclose that that message was a hoax for any 100 of their friends.
>>>>>> Some
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> this stuff of the net is really freaky.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 1:38 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] New School Prayer
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Interesting.  If that prayer isn't new, then why is it on the net 
>>>>>>> now?
>>>>>>> I thought this might be a good faith topic to discuss.
>>>>>>> Beth
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 11/10/08, Linda Mentink <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Beth and all,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That prayer is not new.  It's been around a long time, and is just
>>>>>>>> circulating on the internet again.  I've seen it many times before.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Blessings,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Linda
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1779 - Release Date:
>>>>>> 11/10/2008
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 7:53 AM
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1778 - Release Date: 
>>>>> 11/9/2008
>>>>> 2:14 PM
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1779 - Release Date: 
>>> 11/10/2008
>>> 7:53 AM
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1779 - Release Date: 11/10/2008 
> 7:53 AM
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
> 



From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Tue Nov 11 13:47:37 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 08:47:37 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] New School Prayer
In-Reply-To: <BAY113-DS5C279EDE008440213D01DEB150@phx.gbl>
References: <20081110151541.EDF581A022F@relay03.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
	<4383d01d0811101138k20302c90m6cce59379867d0fa@mail.gmail.com>
	<2B4E4E6B50D94C0E956C55B1499070E0@your4dacd0ea75>
	<C28F6637E97540068B52F2F2A0009CB6@Alan>
	<4383d01d0811101447x77cf29a2h12ae7605120a4a0e@mail.gmail.com>
	<D9082DCE31914BBBBAAC327C5309CB2E@Alan>
	<4383d01d0811101551q15078a36r599bdf4ec8fe404@mail.gmail.com>
	<0394A0E6C1B5451B8C954BD579F42195@Alan>
	<BAY113-DS5C279EDE008440213D01DEB150@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811110547p18daf8d1h51c9471d7513af10@mail.gmail.com>

I heard my church's pastor preach about it, and that's when it hit me.
Beth

On 11/11/08, Barbara Hammel <poetlori8 at msn.com> wrote:
> I've a pastor that preached a sermon on premarital sex.  He said he tells
> his sons that if they're not dating to find a mate, they're dating to mate.
> Inspired me to write a poem about it.  I think that's one of a few times
> I've heard a pastor touch that.
> Barbara
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Alan Wheeler" <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 6:12 PM
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] New School Prayer
>
>> Okay, telling young people that sex before marriage is wrong gets us told
>> that we're not progressive...or too old fashioned...
>>
>> If we preach that there is any kjind of sin, that unlike what society
>> says, people are *NOT* basically good within, Christians are called
>> intolerant and narrow-minded.
>>
>>
>> +-+-+-
>>
>>   for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of
>> yourselves; it is the gift of God, Ephesians 2:8
>> ~~~
>>
>> Alan D Wheeler
>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>> Skype: redwheel1
>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>> www.theqonline.net
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 5:51 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] New School Prayer
>>
>>
>>> Let's see the list some more, Allan.
>>> Beth
>>>
>>> On 11/10/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>>> Actually, it does.  We've kept God out of schools by, essentially,
>>>> outlawing
>>>> public prayer.  The Ten Commandments cannot even be displayed outside
>>>> courthouses any more...and so much more.
>>>>
>>>> Spanking children is now considered a reportable form of abuse.  In
>>>> stead
>>>> we're to give our kids "time outs" lest we bruise their tender psyche.
>>>> The
>>>> list goes on and on.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> +-+-+-
>>>>
>>>>    There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee:
>>>> neither is
>>>> there any rock like our God.
>>>>  1 Samuel 2:2
>>>> ~~~
>>>>
>>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>>> www.theqonline.net
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 4:47 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] New School Prayer
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> That's weird.  That's totally weird.  But back to the original topic,
>>>>> what do you guys think?  Does this poem really talk about the nation?
>>>>> I'm sure it does.
>>>>> Beth
>>>>>
>>>>> On 11/10/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Tghere used to be e-mails about the Miller Beer company giving away
>>>>>> free
>>>>>> beer, or other companies giving away free products if you forwarded
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> message to a certain number of people.  Thankfully some of those old
>>>>>> hoaxes
>>>>>> have died.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> +-+-+-
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee:
>>>>>> neither
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> there any rock like our God.
>>>>>>  1 Samuel 2:2
>>>>>> ~~~
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>>>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>>>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>>>>> www.theqonline.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Julie C. Vogt" <jcvogt at pressenter.com>
>>>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 3:35 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] New School Prayer
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There's all kinds of stuff that goes around the net three times in
>>>>>>> every
>>>>>>> two-year cycle.  There's a thing about Bill Gates giving away money
>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> I get every year and a half that Gates wants to share his wealth with
>>>>>>> you.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I also heard that Microsoft would send a hefty reward to anyone who
>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>> disclose that that message was a hoax for any 100 of their friends.
>>>>>>> Some
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> this stuff of the net is really freaky.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 1:38 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] New School Prayer
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Interesting.  If that prayer isn't new, then why is it on the net
>>>>>>>> now?
>>>>>>>> I thought this might be a good faith topic to discuss.
>>>>>>>> Beth
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 11/10/08, Linda Mentink <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Beth and all,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That prayer is not new.  It's been around a long time, and is just
>>>>>>>>> circulating on the internet again.  I've seen it many times before.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Blessings,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Linda
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>>>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1779 - Release Date:
>>>>>>> 11/10/2008
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 7:53 AM
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1778 - Release Date:
>>>>>> 11/9/2008
>>>>>> 2:14 PM
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1779 - Release Date:
>>>> 11/10/2008
>>>> 7:53 AM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1779 - Release Date: 11/10/2008
>>
>> 7:53 AM
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>



From trising at sbcglobal.net  Tue Nov 11 14:28:56 2008
From: trising at sbcglobal.net (trising at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 09:28:56 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Quote from Romans?
References: <000301c943c2$4022f900$5b9ef44c@IBMB7D6F383D44>
Message-ID: <707A8699DC074E58BAFFE5B777CE3ABC@nickf1758c2c9d>

I thought the verse mentioned was in Hebrews, but I could be wrong. It was 
something close to we have not resisted to the point of blood. That is my 
loose paraphrase. 




From trising at sbcglobal.net  Tue Nov 11 14:33:44 2008
From: trising at sbcglobal.net (trising at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 09:33:44 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] sunday school experience
References: <B29DBBAB5CFF433AACF16FF3168572F8@bassclef>
Message-ID: <CBBE89CEF7E2468583861FCC93BDAA67@nickf1758c2c9d>

Remind the kids that you cannot see their hands raised. Encourage them to 
call your name when they have a question, and also to take turns in 
speaking. Unless you have one or two that want to be fractious, they are old 
enough to do this. As adults, they will not have someone monitoring their 
conversation, they will have to use common rules of courtesy and politeness. 
Try to assume they will rise to the occasion, and, hopefully they will. If 
you have one getting out of hand, try to let them know a talk with parents 
might be in order. Or, another idea is to have particularly rambunctious 
ones kept busy. You can have them cut things out, or pass things out, or 
anything else you find difficult to do on your own. 




From optasiaministry at juno.com  Tue Nov 11 14:59:52 2008
From: optasiaministry at juno.com (Thomas j Vos)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 08:59:52 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Another thought on homosexuality
Message-ID: <20081111.085952.872.0.optasiaministry@juno.com>

The church of which I am a part has done some careful study on this
matter, and I think, has come up with some helpful advice.
The distinction is made between orientation and behavior.
The Bible clearly tells us homosexual behavior is wrong.  Behavior is
chosen and therefore Scripture can call us to pure and holy living.
However, one's orientation may not always be chosen.  For reasons we do
not know, some persons feel attraction to same sex persons.  While this
is part of the disorder that sin has brought into the world, we ought not
heap guilt on someone for having feelings such as this.
Where possible, we encourage and pray for such persons, that they may
change that orientation, but it is possible that someone may not be able
to completely free themselves of it.
Then, Scripture still calls them to purity and celibacy.
Our ministry to homosexual persons must be one of compassion, not
condemnation.
These persons need the help and support of the Christian community to
live faithfully before their Lord.
Blessings.
Tom
____________________________________________________________
Click for a credit repair consultation, raise your FICO score.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3m2LaP6vr9gDFPHUJuVHc8xPpurTFom2lUFZFeTcFZ7PFRxm/



From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Tue Nov 11 15:36:11 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 09:36:11 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Quote from Romans?
References: <000301c943c2$4022f900$5b9ef44c@IBMB7D6F383D44>
Message-ID: <7F4A7FFACAE34693B8680C8E1E55F3D9@your4dacd0ea75>

I wrote that I think it is in Hebrews.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Everett Gavel" <everettg at successfuladaptations.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 11:56 PM
Subject: [Faith-talk] Quote from Romans?


> Hi all,
>
> Earlier today I read someone's mention here of a verse
> in scripture, in Romans.  It was about something like,
> we have not yet shed blood?
>
> Though I don't remember the exact phrase, I remember
> there was the word 'blood' in it, as the example given.
> I just searched the New Testament for the word blood
> (www.biblegateway.com), and nowhere in Romans does it
> find any similar sounding quote.
>
> Can someone please help?  I'd like to know if it's
> actually scriptural, as it was a great quote.  ;-)
>
>
> Thanks,
> Everett
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>


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From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Tue Nov 11 15:36:37 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 09:36:37 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Quote from Romans?
References: <000301c943c2$4022f900$5b9ef44c@IBMB7D6F383D44>
	<D546F70F54BD48EAAB366F4388312D3C@Alan>
Message-ID: <96F57CAC6ADC468C83446EAC395E7587@your4dacd0ea75>

Actually I said I thought it was in Hebrews.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Alan Wheeler" <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
To: "Everett Gavel" <EverettG at successfuladaptations.com>; "Faith-talk,for 
the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 2:50 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Quote from Romans?


> Actually, they said it was Ephesians.  I couldn't find a verse like what 
> they were talking about though.
>
>
>
>
> +-+-+-
>
>   Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God remains in him, and 
> he in God.
> 1 John 4:15
> ~~~
>
> Alan D Wheeler
> awheeler at neb.rr.com
> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
> Skype: redwheel1
> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at 
> www.theqonline.net
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Everett Gavel" <everettg at successfuladaptations.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 11:56 PM
> Subject: [Faith-talk] Quote from Romans?
>
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Earlier today I read someone's mention here of a verse
>> in scripture, in Romans.  It was about something like,
>> we have not yet shed blood?
>>
>> Though I don't remember the exact phrase, I remember
>> there was the word 'blood' in it, as the example given.
>> I just searched the New Testament for the word blood
>> (www.biblegateway.com), and nowhere in Romans does it
>> find any similar sounding quote.
>>
>> Can someone please help?  I'd like to know if it's
>> actually scriptural, as it was a great quote.  ;-)
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Everett
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1779 - Release Date: 11/10/2008 
> 7:53 AM
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>


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From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Tue Nov 11 15:39:44 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 09:39:44 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Another thought on homosexuality
References: <20081111.085952.872.0.optasiaministry@juno.com>
Message-ID: <7105DC55D8FA45EAA1FC683BE46F10F3@your4dacd0ea75>

Amen.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Thomas j Vos" <optasiaministry at juno.com>
To: <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 8:59 AM
Subject: [Faith-talk] Another thought on homosexuality


> The church of which I am a part has done some careful study on this
> matter, and I think, has come up with some helpful advice.
> The distinction is made between orientation and behavior.
> The Bible clearly tells us homosexual behavior is wrong.  Behavior is
> chosen and therefore Scripture can call us to pure and holy living.
> However, one's orientation may not always be chosen.  For reasons we do
> not know, some persons feel attraction to same sex persons.  While this
> is part of the disorder that sin has brought into the world, we ought not
> heap guilt on someone for having feelings such as this.
> Where possible, we encourage and pray for such persons, that they may
> change that orientation, but it is possible that someone may not be able
> to completely free themselves of it.
> Then, Scripture still calls them to purity and celibacy.
> Our ministry to homosexual persons must be one of compassion, not
> condemnation.
> These persons need the help and support of the Christian community to
> live faithfully before their Lord.
> Blessings.
> Tom
> ____________________________________________________________
> Click for a credit repair consultation, raise your FICO score.
> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3m2LaP6vr9gDFPHUJuVHc8xPpurTFom2lUFZFeTcFZ7PFRxm/
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>


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From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Tue Nov 11 19:35:51 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 13:35:51 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Quote from Romans?
References: <000301c943c2$4022f900$5b9ef44c@IBMB7D6F383D44><D546F70F54BD48EAAB366F4388312D3C@Alan>
	<96F57CAC6ADC468C83446EAC395E7587@your4dacd0ea75>
Message-ID: <9C9EDBC66B5E4C4FBE97E63A12428978@Alan>

I apologize for not remembering correctly.


+-+-+-

   But God commends his own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners,
 Christ died for us.
Romans 5:8
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Julie C. Vogt" <jcvogt at pressenter.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 9:36 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Quote from Romans?


> Actually I said I thought it was in Hebrews.
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Alan Wheeler" <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
> To: "Everett Gavel" <EverettG at successfuladaptations.com>; "Faith-talk,for 
> the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 2:50 AM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Quote from Romans?
> 
> 
>> Actually, they said it was Ephesians.  I couldn't find a verse like what 
>> they were talking about though.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> +-+-+-
>>
>>   Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God remains in him, and 
>> he in God.
>> 1 John 4:15
>> ~~~
>>
>> Alan D Wheeler
>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>> Skype: redwheel1
>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at 
>> www.theqonline.net
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Everett Gavel" <everettg at successfuladaptations.com>
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 11:56 PM
>> Subject: [Faith-talk] Quote from Romans?
>>
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> Earlier today I read someone's mention here of a verse
>>> in scripture, in Romans.  It was about something like,
>>> we have not yet shed blood?
>>>
>>> Though I don't remember the exact phrase, I remember
>>> there was the word 'blood' in it, as the example given.
>>> I just searched the New Testament for the word blood
>>> (www.biblegateway.com), and nowhere in Romans does it
>>> find any similar sounding quote.
>>>
>>> Can someone please help?  I'd like to know if it's
>>> actually scriptural, as it was a great quote.  ;-)
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Everett
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1779 - Release Date: 11/10/2008 
>> 7:53 AM
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>>
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1780 - Release Date: 11/10/2008 
> 8:58 PM
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
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From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Tue Nov 11 20:06:59 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 14:06:59 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] No Offense Taken, Alan
Message-ID: <93C5E602E4EB42A49BF66964632757B1@your4dacd0ea75>

It's just I saw two messages close together.  One said Ephesians and you said Romans and I'm sure I referred to Hebrews.  I can't find chapter and verse because I'm cleaning a cyclone out of my apartment today from a weekend of heavy cooking.  I'm sure I've seen it in Hebrews though.



"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul," American Humorist Mark Twain

"An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind

"A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV

"Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)

"No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push, 1976.

"Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God." -I Cor. 10:31
 
"With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic," the Late Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation of the Blind.

Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com 





From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Tue Nov 11 20:09:11 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 14:09:11 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Quote from Hebrews WAS Re:  Quote from Romans?
References: <000301c943c2$4022f900$5b9ef44c@IBMB7D6F383D44>
	<707A8699DC074E58BAFFE5B777CE3ABC@nickf1758c2c9d>
Message-ID: <AA752792E58D416699C7D4221342D441@Alan>

Here it is!  This is from the World English Bible translation:
You have not yet resisted to blood, striving against sin;
Hebrews 12:4

+-+-+-

   My voice shalt thou hear in the morning, O LORD; in the morning will I direct my prayer unto thee, and will look 
 up. Psalms 5:3
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <trising at sbcglobal.net>
To: "Everett Gavel" <EverettG at successfuladaptations.com>; "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 8:28 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Quote from Romans?


>I thought the verse mentioned was in Hebrews, but I could be wrong. It was 
> something close to we have not resisted to the point of blood. That is my 
> loose paraphrase. 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com


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From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Tue Nov 11 20:21:04 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 14:21:04 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Quote from Hebrews WAS Re:  Quote from Romans?
References: <000301c943c2$4022f900$5b9ef44c@IBMB7D6F383D44><707A8699DC074E58BAFFE5B777CE3ABC@nickf1758c2c9d>
	<AA752792E58D416699C7D4221342D441@Alan>
Message-ID: <3861620C14D3430497C2A65B2F99DE29@your4dacd0ea75>

I knew it was in there Somewhere.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Alan Wheeler" <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 2:09 PM
Subject: [Faith-talk] Quote from Hebrews WAS Re: Quote from Romans?


> Here it is!  This is from the World English Bible translation:
> You have not yet resisted to blood, striving against sin;
> Hebrews 12:4
>
> +-+-+-
>
>   My voice shalt thou hear in the morning, O LORD; in the morning will I 
> direct my prayer unto thee, and will look
> up. Psalms 5:3
> ~~~
>
> Alan D Wheeler
> awheeler at neb.rr.com
> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
> Skype: redwheel1
> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at 
> www.theqonline.net
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <trising at sbcglobal.net>
> To: "Everett Gavel" <EverettG at successfuladaptations.com>; "Faith-talk,for 
> the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 8:28 AM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Quote from Romans?
>
>
>>I thought the verse mentioned was in Hebrews, but I could be wrong. It was
>> something close to we have not resisted to the point of blood. That is my
>> loose paraphrase.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.1/1781 - Release Date: 11/11/2008 
> 8:59 AM
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>


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8:59 AM




From mentink at frontiernet.net  Tue Nov 11 21:24:12 2008
From: mentink at frontiernet.net (Linda Mentink)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 15:24:12 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] sunday school experience
In-Reply-To: <B29DBBAB5CFF433AACF16FF3168572F8@bassclef>
References: <B29DBBAB5CFF433AACF16FF3168572F8@bassclef>
Message-ID: <20081111212413.B882A198240@relay02.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>

Hi Laura,

I was wondering how things went for you.

The list has been fairly low in traffic until a couple days ago.  I 
hope you'll stay around awhile.

It will really help things if we can all remember to change the 
subject line or start a new message so that list members don't have 
to read things they aren't interested in, or don't have time to read just then.

Blessings,

Linda






From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Tue Nov 11 21:44:11 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 15:44:11 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] No Offense Taken, Alan
References: <93C5E602E4EB42A49BF66964632757B1@your4dacd0ea75>
Message-ID: <2B260276332B4737B14440040CA25DD4@Alan>

Ooh, what kind of cooking, if I may be so bold?

I can relate to those cyclones.  Had my share of those.


+-+-+-

   O LORD, there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our 
 ears. 1 Chronicles 17:20
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Julie C. Vogt" <jcvogt at pressenter.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 2:06 PM
Subject: [Faith-talk] No Offense Taken, Alan


> It's just I saw two messages close together.  One said Ephesians and you said Romans and I'm sure I referred to Hebrews.  I can't find chapter and verse because I'm cleaning a cyclone out of my apartment today from a weekend of heavy cooking.  I'm sure I've seen it in Hebrews though.
> 
> 
> 
> "Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul," American Humorist Mark Twain
> 
> "An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind
> 
> "A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
> 
> "Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
> 
> "No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push, 1976.
> 
> "Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God." -I Cor. 10:31
> 
> "With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic," the Late Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation of the Blind.
> 
> Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com


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From george.mcdermith at gmail.com  Tue Nov 11 21:52:58 2008
From: george.mcdermith at gmail.com (George McDermith)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 14:52:58 -0700
Subject: [Faith-talk] New School Prayer
In-Reply-To: <BAY113-DS5C279EDE008440213D01DEB150@phx.gbl>
References: <20081110151541.EDF581A022F@relay03.roch.ny.frontiernet.net><4383d01d0811101138k20302c90m6cce59379867d0fa@mail.gmail.com><2B4E4E6B50D94C0E956C55B1499070E0@your4dacd0ea75><C28F6637E97540068B52F2F2A0009CB6@Alan><4383d01d0811101447x77cf29a2h12ae7605120a4a0e@mail.gmail.com><D9082DCE31914BBBBAAC327C5309CB2E@Alan><4383d01d0811101551q15078a36r599bdf4ec8fe404@mail.gmail.com><0394A0E6C1B5451B8C954BD579F42195@Alan>
	<BAY113-DS5C279EDE008440213D01DEB150@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <65B8A4B545234FBCB056D4588827229F@OwnerPC>

    I find that to often the church is so uncomfortable with sex that it is 
rarely discussed with those who need to hear the church's stance on sex the 
most.  I think this is changing to the point where orthodox churchs are 
starting to say sex outside of marriage is wrong (true) and here's why, as 
opposed to just leaving it at the former.  My two cents.

    In Christ,
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Barbara Hammel" <poetlori8 at msn.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 5:36 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] New School Prayer


> I've a pastor that preached a sermon on premarital sex.  He said he tells 
> his sons that if they're not dating to find a mate, they're dating to 
> mate. Inspired me to write a poem about it.  I think that's one of a few 
> times I've heard a pastor touch that.
> Barbara
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Alan Wheeler" <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 6:12 PM
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] New School Prayer
>
>> Okay, telling young people that sex before marriage is wrong gets us told 
>> that we're not progressive...or too old fashioned...
>>
>> If we preach that there is any kjind of sin, that unlike what society 
>> says, people are *NOT* basically good within, Christians are called 
>> intolerant and narrow-minded.
>>
>>
>> +-+-+-
>>
>>   for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of 
>> yourselves; it is the gift of God, Ephesians 2:8
>> ~~~
>>
>> Alan D Wheeler
>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>> Skype: redwheel1
>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at 
>> www.theqonline.net
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 5:51 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] New School Prayer
>>
>>
>>> Let's see the list some more, Allan.
>>> Beth
>>>
>>> On 11/10/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>>> Actually, it does.  We've kept God out of schools by, essentially, 
>>>> outlawing
>>>> public prayer.  The Ten Commandments cannot even be displayed outside
>>>> courthouses any more...and so much more.
>>>>
>>>> Spanking children is now considered a reportable form of abuse.  In 
>>>> stead
>>>> we're to give our kids "time outs" lest we bruise their tender psyche. 
>>>> The
>>>> list goes on and on.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> +-+-+-
>>>>
>>>>    There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: 
>>>> neither is
>>>> there any rock like our God.
>>>>  1 Samuel 2:2
>>>> ~~~
>>>>
>>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>>> www.theqonline.net
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 4:47 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] New School Prayer
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> That's weird.  That's totally weird.  But back to the original topic,
>>>>> what do you guys think?  Does this poem really talk about the nation?
>>>>> I'm sure it does.
>>>>> Beth
>>>>>
>>>>> On 11/10/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Tghere used to be e-mails about the Miller Beer company giving away 
>>>>>> free
>>>>>> beer, or other companies giving away free products if you forwarded 
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> message to a certain number of people.  Thankfully some of those old
>>>>>> hoaxes
>>>>>> have died.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> +-+-+-
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: 
>>>>>> neither
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> there any rock like our God.
>>>>>>  1 Samuel 2:2
>>>>>> ~~~
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>>>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>>>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>>>>> www.theqonline.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Julie C. Vogt" <jcvogt at pressenter.com>
>>>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 3:35 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] New School Prayer
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There's all kinds of stuff that goes around the net three times in 
>>>>>>> every
>>>>>>> two-year cycle.  There's a thing about Bill Gates giving away money 
>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> I get every year and a half that Gates wants to share his wealth 
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> you.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I also heard that Microsoft would send a hefty reward to anyone who
>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>> disclose that that message was a hoax for any 100 of their friends.
>>>>>>> Some
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> this stuff of the net is really freaky.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 1:38 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] New School Prayer
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Interesting.  If that prayer isn't new, then why is it on the net 
>>>>>>>> now?
>>>>>>>> I thought this might be a good faith topic to discuss.
>>>>>>>> Beth
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 11/10/08, Linda Mentink <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Beth and all,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That prayer is not new.  It's been around a long time, and is just
>>>>>>>>> circulating on the internet again.  I've seen it many times 
>>>>>>>>> before.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Blessings,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Linda
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>>>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1779 - Release Date:
>>>>>>> 11/10/2008
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 7:53 AM
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1778 - Release Date: 
>>>>>> 11/9/2008
>>>>>> 2:14 PM
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1779 - Release Date: 
>>>> 11/10/2008
>>>> 7:53 AM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1779 - Release Date: 
>> 11/10/2008 7:53 AM
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/george.mcdermith%40gmail.com 




From george.mcdermith at gmail.com  Tue Nov 11 21:55:12 2008
From: george.mcdermith at gmail.com (George McDermith)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 14:55:12 -0700
Subject: [Faith-talk] Another thought on homosexuality
In-Reply-To: <20081111.085952.872.0.optasiaministry@juno.com>
References: <20081111.085952.872.0.optasiaministry@juno.com>
Message-ID: <61C1347552BB45DFBD165B92E00CEDF8@OwnerPC>

    Amen!
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Thomas j Vos" <optasiaministry at juno.com>
To: <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 7:59 AM
Subject: [Faith-talk] Another thought on homosexuality


> The church of which I am a part has done some careful study on this
> matter, and I think, has come up with some helpful advice.
> The distinction is made between orientation and behavior.
> The Bible clearly tells us homosexual behavior is wrong.  Behavior is
> chosen and therefore Scripture can call us to pure and holy living.
> However, one's orientation may not always be chosen.  For reasons we do
> not know, some persons feel attraction to same sex persons.  While this
> is part of the disorder that sin has brought into the world, we ought not
> heap guilt on someone for having feelings such as this.
> Where possible, we encourage and pray for such persons, that they may
> change that orientation, but it is possible that someone may not be able
> to completely free themselves of it.
> Then, Scripture still calls them to purity and celibacy.
> Our ministry to homosexual persons must be one of compassion, not
> condemnation.
> These persons need the help and support of the Christian community to
> live faithfully before their Lord.
> Blessings.
> Tom
> ____________________________________________________________
> Click for a credit repair consultation, raise your FICO score.
> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3m2LaP6vr9gDFPHUJuVHc8xPpurTFom2lUFZFeTcFZ7PFRxm/
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/george.mcdermith%40gmail.com 




From kk3f at msn.com  Wed Nov 12 00:36:27 2008
From: kk3f at msn.com (Pat Gormley)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 19:36:27 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] strange attitudes
Message-ID: <BAY133-DAV42D41CEF8ADC987A4D46090140@phx.gbl>

I would venture since most 
churchgoers typical social attitudes and God forbid they look on us as normal human beings which we in fact are.  I would wager most of the attitudes resemble those enumerated in Dr. Jernigan's 1976 banquet speech Blindness of visions and Vultures.     

From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Wed Nov 12 03:26:05 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 21:26:05 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] No Offense Taken, Alan
References: <93C5E602E4EB42A49BF66964632757B1@your4dacd0ea75>
	<2B260276332B4737B14440040CA25DD4@Alan>
Message-ID: <061F9EC4AD36421CA3953B3E58899F20@your4dacd0ea75>

I used to live in Des Moines years ago and some would call tornados 
cyclones.

Sunday the church I played for had a monthly "pot blessing."  I brought 8 
quarts of chicken and dumplings and 5 quarts of mashed potatoes.  We also 
had fried chicken, lasagna, salad, garlic bread, bean soup, orange Kool-Aid, 
and a big chocolate cake with fluffy egg white and whipped cream frosting.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Alan Wheeler" <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 3:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] No Offense Taken, Alan


> Ooh, what kind of cooking, if I may be so bold?
>
> I can relate to those cyclones.  Had my share of those.
>
>
> +-+-+-
>
>   O LORD, there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, 
> according to all that we have heard with our
> ears. 1 Chronicles 17:20
> ~~~
>
> Alan D Wheeler
> awheeler at neb.rr.com
> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
> Skype: redwheel1
> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at 
> www.theqonline.net
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Julie C. Vogt" <jcvogt at pressenter.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 2:06 PM
> Subject: [Faith-talk] No Offense Taken, Alan
>
>
>> It's just I saw two messages close together.  One said Ephesians and you 
>> said Romans and I'm sure I referred to Hebrews.  I can't find chapter and 
>> verse because I'm cleaning a cyclone out of my apartment today from a 
>> weekend of heavy cooking.  I'm sure I've seen it in Hebrews though.
>>
>>
>>
>> "Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human 
>> soul," American Humorist Mark Twain
>>
>> "An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, 
>> Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind
>>
>> "A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their 
>> contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
>>
>> "Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>>
>> "No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push, 
>> 1976.
>>
>> "Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory 
>> of God." -I Cor. 10:31
>>
>> "With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can be 
>> reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic," the Late 
>> Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation of the Blind.
>>
>> Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.1/1781 - Release Date: 11/11/2008 
> 8:59 AM
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.2/1782 - Release Date: 11/11/2008 
7:32 PM




From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Wed Nov 12 03:30:06 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 21:30:06 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] strange attitudes
References: <BAY133-DAV42D41CEF8ADC987A4D46090140@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <2B95E83127C24D67A308CC5C5DAF2E66@your4dacd0ea75>

You ought to be here where I live, Pat.  I'm scared of some of these 
churches in this little town.  Still I served on a board while I attended 
St. Mark AME Church representing St. Mark on the board.  The organization 
was CHUM, Churches United in Ministry.  It is a faith-based organization 
which serves homeless, low- or no-income people, and people with chemical 
dependencies.  They have 34 congregation members.  Two of those members are 
a Jewish synagogue and one is a Muslim masque.  We all had the same goal, so 
we got along and this is an organization which does as much as the Salvation 
Army.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Pat Gormley" <kk3f at msn.com>
To: <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 6:36 PM
Subject: [Faith-talk] strange attitudes


>I would venture since most
> churchgoers typical social attitudes and God forbid they look on us as 
> normal human beings which we in fact are.  I would wager most of the 
> attitudes resemble those enumerated in Dr. Jernigan's 1976 banquet speech 
> Blindness of visions and Vultures.
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.2/1782 - Release Date: 11/11/2008 
7:32 PM




From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Wed Nov 12 09:26:01 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 03:26:01 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] No Offense Taken, Alan
References: <93C5E602E4EB42A49BF66964632757B1@your4dacd0ea75><2B260276332B4737B14440040CA25DD4@Alan>
	<061F9EC4AD36421CA3953B3E58899F20@your4dacd0ea75>
Message-ID: <DA77B87CA92A4157B52E9A3F1F74B22A@Alan>

If you used to live in Des Moines, where are you now? LOL!

Hopefully a tornado didn't blow you out of Des Moines. *TEASING GRIN*

Oh, that food sounds delicious.  Wish I had been at your church.


+-+-+-

   for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, Ephesians 2:8
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Julie C. Vogt" <jcvogt at pressenter.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 9:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] No Offense Taken, Alan


>I used to live in Des Moines years ago and some would call tornados 
> cyclones.
> 
> Sunday the church I played for had a monthly "pot blessing."  I brought 8 
> quarts of chicken and dumplings and 5 quarts of mashed potatoes.  We also 
> had fried chicken, lasagna, salad, garlic bread, bean soup, orange Kool-Aid, 
> and a big chocolate cake with fluffy egg white and whipped cream frosting.
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Alan Wheeler" <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 3:44 PM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] No Offense Taken, Alan
> 
> 
>> Ooh, what kind of cooking, if I may be so bold?
>>
>> I can relate to those cyclones.  Had my share of those.
>>
>>
>> +-+-+-
>>
>>   O LORD, there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, 
>> according to all that we have heard with our
>> ears. 1 Chronicles 17:20
>> ~~~
>>
>> Alan D Wheeler
>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>> Skype: redwheel1
>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at 
>> www.theqonline.net
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Julie C. Vogt" <jcvogt at pressenter.com>
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 2:06 PM
>> Subject: [Faith-talk] No Offense Taken, Alan
>>
>>
>>> It's just I saw two messages close together.  One said Ephesians and you 
>>> said Romans and I'm sure I referred to Hebrews.  I can't find chapter and 
>>> verse because I'm cleaning a cyclone out of my apartment today from a 
>>> weekend of heavy cooking.  I'm sure I've seen it in Hebrews though.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human 
>>> soul," American Humorist Mark Twain
>>>
>>> "An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, 
>>> Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind
>>>
>>> "A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their 
>>> contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
>>>
>>> "Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>>>
>>> "No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push, 
>>> 1976.
>>>
>>> "Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory 
>>> of God." -I Cor. 10:31
>>>
>>> "With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can be 
>>> reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic," the Late 
>>> Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation of the Blind.
>>>
>>> Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.1/1781 - Release Date: 11/11/2008 
>> 8:59 AM
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>>
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.2/1782 - Release Date: 11/11/2008 
> 7:32 PM
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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From everettg at successfuladaptations.com  Wed Nov 12 11:59:58 2008
From: everettg at successfuladaptations.com (Everett Gavel)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 06:59:58 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] John 6:37 - The One Who Comes to Me I Will By No Means
	Cast Out
Message-ID: <007901c944be$2ffa2f10$49a5dd45@IBMB7D6F383D44>

Good Morning!

I wonder sometimes, with so many verses throughout the 
Bible, how some denominations can misinterpret 
something so blatantly obvious.  What I refer to is the 
notion that one can lose, then gain, then lose again, 
then gain again, then lose again and again and again - 
and supposedly continue to work to 'get back' - their 
ssalvation?

This is simply taking the power away from Christ, 
putting it on ourselves to save ourselves.  Seems 
silly, doesn't it?  And yet... ah, nevermind. I could 
rant and rave and give opinions all day long.  But I 
want to stick with scripture.

Below is yet another straightforward bit of scripture 
that I've found to back up the simple fact that once we 
are saved, we're saved - no matter how many times we 
may again fall short.  Nothing we can ever do would 
allow us to "deserve" to be saved.  So, yes, we may sin 
now and again.  And if so, we are called to repent.  To 
truly repent means to do a 180, and go in the other 
direction from our sin.  It means to do our best to not 
sin again, and to sincerely ask for forgiveness, and to 
sincerely try not to sin again.  But our God is a 
forgiving God.  Thank You, Jesus!  And we are not 
written out of His book once we are written in.  God 
does not say that anywhere in the Bible.  He doesn't 
have some huge magical eraser and one day we're in, the 
next we're out. What God does say, numerous times and 
in numerous ways, is that once we're His, we're His - 
and nothing shall take us from Him!   The verse below 
is just one sign of this simple truth. I've shared it 
below in 9 different versions.  I put the NKJV version 
first because I personally like the way that one 
sounds.  But most all the versions, except perhaps the 
KJV, seem perfectly clear.

Please, if you're one who is unclear on this point of 
salvation, first pray to Jesus for clarity and truth 
and God's Wisdom, to show you His truth, to show you 
what He wants you to see and grasp through all this. 
Then, please, read the verses below.

And God bless your efforts and your prayers on this. 
May He open the eyes of your heart in this matter, if 
you've thus far been one who thinks it's up to you to 
gain and possibly lose again, your Salvation - 
Salvation which can come only through the Grace of our 
God, Jesus Christ.  Thank You, Jesus.

9 versions of the Gospel of John, chapter 6, verse 37 
follow.


All for His Glory!
Everett



John 6:37 - The One Who Comes to Me I Will By No Means 
Cast Out
(In 9 Versions below: the NKJV, NIV, KJV, NAS, MSG, 
AMP, NLT, and ESV)

John 6:37
New King James Version (NKJV)
All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the 
one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

John 6:37
New International Version (NIV)
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and 
whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

John 6:37
King James Version (KJV)
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him 
that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:37
New American Standard (NAS)
All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the 
one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
=====
Cross references:
John 6:37 : John 6:39; 17:2, 24


John 6:37
The Message (MSG)
35-38 Jesus said, "I am the Bread of Life. The person 
who aligns with me hungers no more and thirsts no more, 
ever. I have told you this explicitly because even 
though you have seen me in action, you don't really 
believe me. Every person the Father gives me eventually 
comes running to me. And once that person is with me, I 
hold on and don't let go. I came down from heaven not 
to follow my own whim but to accomplish the will of the 
One who sent me.


John 6:37
Amplified Bible (AMP)
All whom My Father gives (entrusts) to Me will come to 
Me; and the one who comes to Me I will most certainly 
not cast out [I will never, no never, reject one of 
them who comes to Me].

John 6:37
New Living Translation (NLT)
However, those the Father has given me will come to me, 
and I will never reject them.

John 6:37
English Standard Version (ESV)
(A) All that(B) the Father gives me will come to me, 
and(C) whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
=====
Cross references:
John 6:37 : John 6:39; John 17:2
John 6:37 : John 10:29; 17:6, 9, 24
John 6:37 : John 10:28; 17:12









From trising at sbcglobal.net  Wed Nov 12 14:01:34 2008
From: trising at sbcglobal.net (trising at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 09:01:34 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] John 6:37 - The One Who Comes to Me I Will By No
	MeansCast Out
References: <007901c944be$2ffa2f10$49a5dd45@IBMB7D6F383D44>
Message-ID: <7191323AD3E84B66A85F0610AF67F5C1@nickf1758c2c9d>

I believe and love these verses. Romans 8 also states this doctrine very 
clearly. 




From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Wed Nov 12 14:37:51 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 08:37:51 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] No Offense Taken, Alan
References: <93C5E602E4EB42A49BF66964632757B1@your4dacd0ea75><2B260276332B4737B14440040CA25DD4@Alan><061F9EC4AD36421CA3953B3E58899F20@your4dacd0ea75>
	<DA77B87CA92A4157B52E9A3F1F74B22A@Alan>
Message-ID: <C99E1ECE697643A9BB164D0513C8AA44@your4dacd0ea75>

Well, I moved to Minneapolis where I'm from for about 20 years and then to 
Superior, Wisconsin, and I've for five years lived in Duluth, Minnesota. 
I'm about 150 miles Northeast of Minneapolis.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Alan Wheeler" <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 3:26 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] No Offense Taken, Alan


> If you used to live in Des Moines, where are you now? LOL!
>
> Hopefully a tornado didn't blow you out of Des Moines. *TEASING GRIN*
>
> Oh, that food sounds delicious.  Wish I had been at your church.
>
>
> +-+-+-
>
>   for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of 
> yourselves; it is the gift of God, Ephesians 2:8
> ~~~
>
> Alan D Wheeler
> awheeler at neb.rr.com
> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
> Skype: redwheel1
> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at 
> www.theqonline.net
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Julie C. Vogt" <jcvogt at pressenter.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 9:26 PM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] No Offense Taken, Alan
>
>
>>I used to live in Des Moines years ago and some would call tornados
>> cyclones.
>>
>> Sunday the church I played for had a monthly "pot blessing."  I brought 8
>> quarts of chicken and dumplings and 5 quarts of mashed potatoes.  We also
>> had fried chicken, lasagna, salad, garlic bread, bean soup, orange 
>> Kool-Aid,
>> and a big chocolate cake with fluffy egg white and whipped cream 
>> frosting.
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Alan Wheeler" <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 3:44 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] No Offense Taken, Alan
>>
>>
>>> Ooh, what kind of cooking, if I may be so bold?
>>>
>>> I can relate to those cyclones.  Had my share of those.
>>>
>>>
>>> +-+-+-
>>>
>>>   O LORD, there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee,
>>> according to all that we have heard with our
>>> ears. 1 Chronicles 17:20
>>> ~~~
>>>
>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>> www.theqonline.net
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Julie C. Vogt" <jcvogt at pressenter.com>
>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 2:06 PM
>>> Subject: [Faith-talk] No Offense Taken, Alan
>>>
>>>
>>>> It's just I saw two messages close together.  One said Ephesians and 
>>>> you
>>>> said Romans and I'm sure I referred to Hebrews.  I can't find chapter 
>>>> and
>>>> verse because I'm cleaning a cyclone out of my apartment today from a
>>>> weekend of heavy cooking.  I'm sure I've seen it in Hebrews though.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human
>>>> soul," American Humorist Mark Twain
>>>>
>>>> "An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth 
>>>> Jernigan,
>>>> Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind
>>>>
>>>> "A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their
>>>> contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
>>>>
>>>> "Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>>>>
>>>> "No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push,
>>>> 1976.
>>>>
>>>> "Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the 
>>>> glory
>>>> of God." -I Cor. 10:31
>>>>
>>>> "With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can be
>>>> reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic," the 
>>>> Late
>>>> Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation of the Blind.
>>>>
>>>> Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.1/1781 - Release Date: 
>>> 11/11/2008
>>> 8:59 AM
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.2/1782 - Release Date: 
>> 11/11/2008
>> 7:32 PM
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.2/1782 - Release Date: 11/11/2008 
> 7:32 PM
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.2/1783 - Release Date: 11/12/2008 
10:01 AM




From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Wed Nov 12 15:56:37 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 09:56:37 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] No Offense Taken, Alan
References: <93C5E602E4EB42A49BF66964632757B1@your4dacd0ea75><2B260276332B4737B14440040CA25DD4@Alan><061F9EC4AD36421CA3953B3E58899F20@your4dacd0ea75><DA77B87CA92A4157B52E9A3F1F74B22A@Alan>
	<C99E1ECE697643A9BB164D0513C8AA44@your4dacd0ea75>
Message-ID: <72570ADED49947F29A1C859386CAD55A@Alan>

Ah, okay.  I lived/worked in Minneapolis from February, 2000 until August 2001.  I worked at BLIND, Inc.


+-+-+-

   Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, then I will come in to him, 
and will dine with him, and he with me. Revelation 3:20
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Julie C. Vogt" <jcvogt at pressenter.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 8:37 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] No Offense Taken, Alan


> Well, I moved to Minneapolis where I'm from for about 20 years and then to 
> Superior, Wisconsin, and I've for five years lived in Duluth, Minnesota. 
> I'm about 150 miles Northeast of Minneapolis.
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Alan Wheeler" <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 3:26 AM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] No Offense Taken, Alan
> 
> 
>> If you used to live in Des Moines, where are you now? LOL!
>>
>> Hopefully a tornado didn't blow you out of Des Moines. *TEASING GRIN*
>>
>> Oh, that food sounds delicious.  Wish I had been at your church.
>>
>>
>> +-+-+-
>>
>>   for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of 
>> yourselves; it is the gift of God, Ephesians 2:8
>> ~~~
>>
>> Alan D Wheeler
>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>> Skype: redwheel1
>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at 
>> www.theqonline.net
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Julie C. Vogt" <jcvogt at pressenter.com>
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 9:26 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] No Offense Taken, Alan
>>
>>
>>>I used to live in Des Moines years ago and some would call tornados
>>> cyclones.
>>>
>>> Sunday the church I played for had a monthly "pot blessing."  I brought 8
>>> quarts of chicken and dumplings and 5 quarts of mashed potatoes.  We also
>>> had fried chicken, lasagna, salad, garlic bread, bean soup, orange 
>>> Kool-Aid,
>>> and a big chocolate cake with fluffy egg white and whipped cream 
>>> frosting.
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Alan Wheeler" <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 3:44 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] No Offense Taken, Alan
>>>
>>>
>>>> Ooh, what kind of cooking, if I may be so bold?
>>>>
>>>> I can relate to those cyclones.  Had my share of those.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> +-+-+-
>>>>
>>>>   O LORD, there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee,
>>>> according to all that we have heard with our
>>>> ears. 1 Chronicles 17:20
>>>> ~~~
>>>>
>>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>>> www.theqonline.net
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "Julie C. Vogt" <jcvogt at pressenter.com>
>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 2:06 PM
>>>> Subject: [Faith-talk] No Offense Taken, Alan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> It's just I saw two messages close together.  One said Ephesians and 
>>>>> you
>>>>> said Romans and I'm sure I referred to Hebrews.  I can't find chapter 
>>>>> and
>>>>> verse because I'm cleaning a cyclone out of my apartment today from a
>>>>> weekend of heavy cooking.  I'm sure I've seen it in Hebrews though.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human
>>>>> soul," American Humorist Mark Twain
>>>>>
>>>>> "An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth 
>>>>> Jernigan,
>>>>> Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind
>>>>>
>>>>> "A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their
>>>>> contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
>>>>>
>>>>> "Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>>>>>
>>>>> "No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push,
>>>>> 1976.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the 
>>>>> glory
>>>>> of God." -I Cor. 10:31
>>>>>
>>>>> "With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can be
>>>>> reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic," the 
>>>>> Late
>>>>> Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation of the Blind.
>>>>>
>>>>> Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.1/1781 - Release Date: 
>>>> 11/11/2008
>>>> 8:59 AM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.2/1782 - Release Date: 
>>> 11/11/2008
>>> 7:32 PM
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.2/1782 - Release Date: 11/11/2008 
>> 7:32 PM
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>>
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.2/1783 - Release Date: 11/12/2008 
> 10:01 AM
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.2/1783 - Release Date: 11/12/2008 10:01 AM




From wesley.burden at verizon.net  Wed Nov 12 16:32:18 2008
From: wesley.burden at verizon.net (WESLEY BURDEN)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 11:32:18 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] FW: [BlindMen4Christ] A brighter tomorrow
Message-ID: <7CD975E8537243B391348D523F519C08@Buster>

 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindmen4christ-bounces at morales-family.lljfm.net
[mailto:blindmen4christ-bounces at morales-family.lljfm.net] On Behalf Of Stu
(by way of Curtis Delzer <curtis at calweb.com>)
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 11:30 AM
To: Blind men for Christ
Subject: [BlindMen4Christ] A brighter tomorrow

The Advantage of Having the Holy Spirit
What an incredible opportunity and experience the disciples had, getting the
chance to walk and talk with Jesus, God in the flesh in their very presence.
They could look into His eyes, touch His hands, and in the case of the
disciple John, even recline his head upon Jesus' chest (John 13:23). Jesus
had called His disciples friends (John 15:15). They had spent several years
together, learning and studying under this Master Teacher. But as the death
of Christ neared, He spoke to them about having to leave them. He understood
that this would bring them sorrow (John 16:6), but they needed to know
something very important. It would be to their advantage that He would leave
them. 
He says in John 16:7, "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage
that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you;
but if I go, I will send Him to you." The Helper is the Holy Spirit, the
Spirit of truth, as He is referred to in verse 13. This third Person of the
Trinity is of no less value to the disciples than Jesus having come in the
flesh. In fact, according to Jesus, it is an advantage for the disciples for
Jesus to leave and for the Helper to come. This is a potent realization that
is highly relevant for us today because, though we don't get to walk and
talk with a physical, tangible Jesus, we most certainly have the Helper
within our hearts if we have trusted Christ by faith.

I know that it can be tempting at times to wish for a physical Jesus to be
here with us. Then, after all, we could really find comfort. We could really
ask the hard questions of faith and life. We could really feel close to God,
and on down the list, or so we think. Jesus makes it abundantly clear that
we have an advantage because we have the Holy Spirit. We don't just get to
walk and talk with Jesus; we get something profoundly more intimate than
that.
He lives within our hearts through the Person of the Holy Spirit, God
Himself and one with Christ. We get Jesus as close as we could possibly get
Him, with all the accompanying spiritual power and authority to do His will.

Think of the disciples. They seemed very confused and at a loss throughout
their time with Christ to the point where Christ at times seemed to wonder
if they were ever going to catch on (though of course He knew they
would) (Matthew 15:16, Matthew 16:5-12). Yet Christ knew that it would be
the Holy Spirit Who would guide them into all truth (John 16:13). Jesus
taught them and taught them and taught them more still, yet it would be the
Spirit Who would come after His departure that would really begin to help
them get it. This Helper, God the Spirit, immediately and radically
transformed (Acts
2) the uneducated
disciples into powerful preachers, healers, evangelists, and bold, bold
witnesses. People who observed them could tell (now that the Spirit had come
to indwell them) that they had been with Christ (Acts 4:13). So, too, by way
of the Spirit's work in our hearts and lives, the world will be able to see
that we know Jesus, that we have "walked and talked" with Him through
reading the pages of Scripture. We truly have an advantage because Jesus
sent the Helper to us.

Let us never underestimate the power and help that the Spirit of God gives
to us. Scripture says that He empowers us with the ability to have joy,
peace, and hope (Romans 15:13). He teaches us what is ultimate true
spiritual wisdom and reality according to the Bible (1 Corinthians 2:13).
The Spirit leads us, giving us wisdom and direction as to how we should live
and what we should do (Romans 8:14). He helps us to be able to express our
prayers to God, interceding for us despite our weakness (Romans 8:26). He
also helps us to know for sure that we are indeed children of God,
testifying in our hearts to the fact (Romans 8:16). The work of the Spirit
is clearly a critical component of the life and ministry of a believer.
Without His guidance and help, we are powerless to accomplish anything of
lasting worth for the kingdom (Zechariah 4:6).

But the great news is that we do have the Spirit, so let us not devalue the
power, strength, insight, and ability that He can bring to bear upon our
lives.
We have a great Helper, God Himself indwelling our hearts (Romans 8:11), so
let us not be discouraged but empowered and filled with hope to do the work
of the kingdom with the King so very near to us in our hearts.


Prayer list!

<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Our government and it's officials

All of god's church's

We need to always pray for the lost of this world

Sandra Cassidy and husband, Sandra has had some serious health problems, so
let's offer up a sincere prayer for her

Hurricane victims

Sandra's husband (Jim) serious health problems.

Teresa Kelly, serious eye problems

Stu
<mailto:K5stu at sbcglobal.net>K5stu at sbcglobal.net
Reading your Bible today will help prepare you for A Brighter Tomorrow!
_______________________________________________
BlindMen4Christ mailing list
BlindMen4Christ at morales-family.lljfm.net
http://morales-family.lljfm.net/mailman/listinfo/blindmen4christ_morales-fam
ily.lljfm.net




From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Wed Nov 12 19:17:09 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 13:17:09 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] No Offense Taken, Alan
References: <93C5E602E4EB42A49BF66964632757B1@your4dacd0ea75><2B260276332B4737B14440040CA25DD4@Alan><061F9EC4AD36421CA3953B3E58899F20@your4dacd0ea75><DA77B87CA92A4157B52E9A3F1F74B22A@Alan><C99E1ECE697643A9BB164D0513C8AA44@your4dacd0ea75>
	<72570ADED49947F29A1C859386CAD55A@Alan>
Message-ID: <C800E9053A0E4298A4F2BD1657E687CF@your4dacd0ea75>

Got my start in computers as a part-time computer student there, 1993, 1996.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Alan Wheeler" <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 9:56 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] No Offense Taken, Alan


> Ah, okay.  I lived/worked in Minneapolis from February, 2000 until August 
> 2001.  I worked at BLIND, Inc.
>
>
> +-+-+-
>
>   Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and 
> opens the door, then I will come in to him,
> and will dine with him, and he with me. Revelation 3:20
> ~~~
>
> Alan D Wheeler
> awheeler at neb.rr.com
> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
> Skype: redwheel1
> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at 
> www.theqonline.net
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Julie C. Vogt" <jcvogt at pressenter.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 8:37 AM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] No Offense Taken, Alan
>
>
>> Well, I moved to Minneapolis where I'm from for about 20 years and then 
>> to
>> Superior, Wisconsin, and I've for five years lived in Duluth, Minnesota.
>> I'm about 150 miles Northeast of Minneapolis.
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Alan Wheeler" <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 3:26 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] No Offense Taken, Alan
>>
>>
>>> If you used to live in Des Moines, where are you now? LOL!
>>>
>>> Hopefully a tornado didn't blow you out of Des Moines. *TEASING GRIN*
>>>
>>> Oh, that food sounds delicious.  Wish I had been at your church.
>>>
>>>
>>> +-+-+-
>>>
>>>   for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of
>>> yourselves; it is the gift of God, Ephesians 2:8
>>> ~~~
>>>
>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>> www.theqonline.net
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Julie C. Vogt" <jcvogt at pressenter.com>
>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 9:26 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] No Offense Taken, Alan
>>>
>>>
>>>>I used to live in Des Moines years ago and some would call tornados
>>>> cyclones.
>>>>
>>>> Sunday the church I played for had a monthly "pot blessing."  I brought 
>>>> 8
>>>> quarts of chicken and dumplings and 5 quarts of mashed potatoes.  We 
>>>> also
>>>> had fried chicken, lasagna, salad, garlic bread, bean soup, orange
>>>> Kool-Aid,
>>>> and a big chocolate cake with fluffy egg white and whipped cream
>>>> frosting.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "Alan Wheeler" <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 3:44 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] No Offense Taken, Alan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Ooh, what kind of cooking, if I may be so bold?
>>>>>
>>>>> I can relate to those cyclones.  Had my share of those.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> +-+-+-
>>>>>
>>>>>   O LORD, there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside 
>>>>> thee,
>>>>> according to all that we have heard with our
>>>>> ears. 1 Chronicles 17:20
>>>>> ~~~
>>>>>
>>>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>>>> www.theqonline.net
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>> From: "Julie C. Vogt" <jcvogt at pressenter.com>
>>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 2:06 PM
>>>>> Subject: [Faith-talk] No Offense Taken, Alan
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> It's just I saw two messages close together.  One said Ephesians and
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> said Romans and I'm sure I referred to Hebrews.  I can't find chapter
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> verse because I'm cleaning a cyclone out of my apartment today from a
>>>>>> weekend of heavy cooking.  I'm sure I've seen it in Hebrews though.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a 
>>>>>> human
>>>>>> soul," American Humorist Mark Twain
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth
>>>>>> Jernigan,
>>>>>> Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their
>>>>>> contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push,
>>>>>> 1976.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the
>>>>>> glory
>>>>>> of God." -I Cor. 10:31
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can be
>>>>>> reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic," the
>>>>>> Late
>>>>>> Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation of the 
>>>>>> Blind.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.1/1781 - Release Date:
>>>>> 11/11/2008
>>>>> 8:59 AM
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.2/1782 - Release Date:
>>>> 11/11/2008
>>>> 7:32 PM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.2/1782 - Release Date: 
>>> 11/11/2008
>>> 7:32 PM
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.2/1783 - Release Date: 
>> 11/12/2008
>> 10:01 AM
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.2/1783 - Release Date: 11/12/2008 
>10:01 AM
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.2/1783 - Release Date: 11/12/2008 
10:01 AM




From ej_buhrke at hotmail.com  Wed Nov 12 22:22:17 2008
From: ej_buhrke at hotmail.com (EJ Buhrke)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 16:22:17 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Left Behind Series Dramatized Radio Version
In-Reply-To: <20081101033045.45E27AC93D@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
References: <20081101033045.45E27AC93D@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
Message-ID: <BAY116-DAV1107163C199EBCCC0867F39C140@phx.gbl>

Linda,

Did you get a chance to download these Left Behind Series files?  I have the
demo and the first one and have been downloading slowly but surely because
they are so large, but today when I went to try the website said the files
had been deleted. Do you know of where else they might be for me to be able
to get?  Thanks.  EJ


-----Original Message-----
From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Linda Mentink
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 10:31 PM
To: faith-talk at nfbnet.org; BlindWomen4Christ at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Faith-talk] Left Behind Series Dramatized Radio Version

I got this from another list, and thought some of you might want to 
know about this.

Left Behind Dramatized for radio, 192KBps crisp clear audio in 48 CDs 
at SendSpace

 > If you like the Left Behind books I think you will like this so 
download and enjoy
 > From: Edward <<mailto:Solid.Rock%40comcast.net>Solid.Rock at comcast.net
 >
 >
 > I want to thank Scott Lawlor for initially posting this for me.
 > The Left Behind series first appeared in book form. The drama
 > revealed in these books eventually resulted in a dramatized version
 > designed for radio. It is the radio dramatized version that is
 > featured here.
 >
 > The Left Behind dramatized audio series tells the story of the end
 > times, in which many have been "raptured," leaving the world
 > shattered and chaotic. As people scramble for answers, a Romanian
 > politician named Nicolae Carpathia rises to become secretary-general
 > of the United Nations, promising to restore peace and stability to
 > all nations. What most of the world does not realize is that
 > Carpathia is actually the Antichrist foretold from the Bible. This
 > gripping christian novel depicts the rise of the anti-christ to
 > secure world power only to be challenged by the real Christ in the
 > final book The Glorious Appearing.
 >
 > Coming to grips with the truth and becoming born-again Christians,
 > Rayford Steele, his daughter Chloe, their pastor Bruce Barnes, and
 > young journalist Cameron "Buck" Williams begin their quest as the
 > Tribulation Force to help save the lost and prepare for the coming
 > Tribulation, in which God will rain down judgment on the world for
 > seven years. This complete story is told in dramatized fashion in
 > the following 12 books:
 > Left Behind
 > Tribulation Force
 > Nicolae
 > Soul Harvest
 > Apollyon
 > Assassins
 > The Indwelling
 > The Mark
 > Desecration
 > The Remnant
 > Armageddon
 > Glorious Appearing
 >
 > Although this series has been posted many times, this is your
 > opportunity to get it at a bit rate of 192KBps.
 >
 > If you just wish to sample one of the episodes before committing to
 > the entire download, you can download episode 62 - Farewell To A
 > Friend, taken from the book entitled Assassins at the following link:
 >
 >
<http://www.sendspace.com/file/4ksxbx>http://www.sendspace.com/file/4ksxbx
 >
 > If after sampling the above episode, and you want the entire audio
 > series, then you can download The entire Left Behind Dramatized
 > version at 192KBps from the following links:
 >
 > 01 Left Behind
 > Download Part 1 Here
 >
<http://www.sendspace.com/file/b58oiv>http://www.sendspace.com/file/b58oiv
 >
 > Download Part 2 Here
 >
<http://www.sendspace.com/file/j7uj0o>http://www.sendspace.com/file/j7uj0o
 >
 >
 > 02 Tribulation Force
 > Download Part 1 Here
 >
<http://www.sendspace.com/file/b47u1a>http://www.sendspace.com/file/b47u1a
 >
 > Download Part 2 Here
 >
<http://www.sendspace.com/file/my4hlh>http://www.sendspace.com/file/my4hlh
 >
 >
 > 03 Nicolae
 > Download Part 1 Here
 >
<http://www.sendspace.com/file/75tbtj>http://www.sendspace.com/file/75tbtj
 >
 > Download Part 2 Here
 >
<http://www.sendspace.com/file/200soy>http://www.sendspace.com/file/200soy
 >
 >
 > 04 Soul Harvest
 > Download Part 1 Here
 >
<http://www.sendspace.com/file/mx74m2>http://www.sendspace.com/file/mx74m2
 >
 > Download Part 2 Here
 >
<http://www.sendspace.com/file/6k9cvu>http://www.sendspace.com/file/6k9cvu
 >
 >
 > 05 Apollyon
 > Download Part 1 Here
 >
<http://www.sendspace.com/file/9psp5o>http://www.sendspace.com/file/9psp5o
 >
 > Download Part 2 Here
 >
<http://www.sendspace.com/file/bj127l>http://www.sendspace.com/file/bj127l
 >
 >
 > 06 Assassins
 > Download Part 1 Here
 >
<http://www.sendspace.com/file/fo3s7e>http://www.sendspace.com/file/fo3s7e
 >
 > Download Part 2 Here
 >
<http://www.sendspace.com/file/u6m59n>http://www.sendspace.com/file/u6m59n
 >
 >
 > 07 The Indwelling
 > Download Part 1 Here
 >
<http://www.sendspace.com/file/7pbuum>http://www.sendspace.com/file/7pbuum
 >
 > Download Part 2 Here
 >
<http://www.sendspace.com/file/t4dotr>http://www.sendspace.com/file/t4dotr
 >
 >
 > 08 The Mark
 > Download Part 1 Here
 >
<http://www.sendspace.com/file/2kz2ev>http://www.sendspace.com/file/2kz2ev
 >
 > Download Part 2 Here
 >
<http://www.sendspace.com/file/99jzdi>http://www.sendspace.com/file/99jzdi
 >
 >
 > 09 Desecration
 > Download Part 1 Here
 >
<http://www.sendspace.com/file/gncsyj>http://www.sendspace.com/file/gncsyj
 >
 > Download Part 2 Here
 >
<http://www.sendspace.com/file/4ntb49>http://www.sendspace.com/file/4ntb49
 >
 >
 > 10 The Remnant
 > Download Part 1 Here
 >
<http://www.sendspace.com/file/whtwx0>http://www.sendspace.com/file/whtwx0
 >
 > Download Part 2 Here
 >
<http://www.sendspace.com/file/wntkrd>http://www.sendspace.com/file/wntkrd
 >
 >
 > 11 Armageddon
 > Download Part 1 Here
 >
<http://www.sendspace.com/file/ci7hix>http://www.sendspace.com/file/ci7hix
 >
 > Download Part 2 Here
 >
<http://www.sendspace.com/file/aq0rqm>http://www.sendspace.com/file/aq0rqm
 >
 >
 > 12 Glorious Appearing
 > Download Part 1 Here
 >
<http://www.sendspace.com/file/15vv00>http://www.sendspace.com/file/15vv00
 >
 > Download Part 2 Here
 >
<http://www.sendspace.com/file/r56ov9>http://www.sendspace.com/file/r56ov9
 >
 > --
 > Joey Couch
 > home phone 606-910-2128 or 606-672-6554
 > Sell 606-216-0647
 > email
 > <mailto:joey.couch%40gmail.com>joey.couch at gmail.com
 > or
 > <mailto:ki4vjd%40arrl.net>ki4vjd at arrl.net
 > check out the KCB web site by going to
 > <http://www.kentucky-acb.org>http://www.kentucky-acb.org




_______________________________________________
Faith-talk mailing list
Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Faith-talk:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ej_buhrke%40hotm
ail.com




From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Wed Nov 12 23:20:21 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 17:20:21 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] I Think This is It
Message-ID: <862EC65AFDC34FCCB7938AAA74F7645F@your4dacd0ea75>

For the Performing Arts:
http://padnfb.starcitynet.com 


"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul," American Humorist Mark Twain

"An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind

"A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV

"Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)

"No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push, 1976.

"With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic," the Late Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation of the Blind.

Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com 





From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Wed Nov 12 23:22:19 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 17:22:19 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] I Just Tried It
Message-ID: <C9B742363E684BDBB00C86DA2E574294@your4dacd0ea75>

It says it cannot be found.  I found the site at
www.nfbnet.org

"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul," American Humorist Mark Twain

"An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind

"A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV

"Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)

"No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push, 1976.

"With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic," the Late Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation of the Blind.

Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com 





From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Wed Nov 12 23:30:24 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 17:30:24 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Where I Sent my Survey
Message-ID: <68EBB4CE206C4DA0AB92130ADB0A5C02@your4dacd0ea75>

DHolston at nyc.rr.com
That's where I wound up sending the survey

. 


"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul," American Humorist Mark Twain

"An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind

"A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV

"Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)

"No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push, 1976.

"With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic," the Late Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation of the Blind.

Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com 





From kk3f at msn.com  Thu Nov 13 00:15:37 2008
From: kk3f at msn.com (Pat Gormley)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 19:15:37 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] place to send the responses to survey
Message-ID: <BAY133-DAV28AF0DAB1E1F2D3E64D3C90170@phx.gbl>

I sent mine to dholston at nyc.rr.com.  

From mentink at frontiernet.net  Thu Nov 13 00:35:08 2008
From: mentink at frontiernet.net (Linda Mentink)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 18:35:08 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Left Behind Series Dramatized Radio Version
In-Reply-To: <BAY116-DAV1107163C199EBCCC0867F39C140@phx.gbl>
References: <20081101033045.45E27AC93D@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
	<BAY116-DAV1107163C199EBCCC0867F39C140@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20081113003509.368C7AC9ED@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>

Hi Elizabeth,

No, I didn't download any of them.  That's too bad, but I have no 
idea where else they would be.  You might check Focus on the Family.

Blessings,

Linda




From george.mcdermith at gmail.com  Thu Nov 13 00:44:09 2008
From: george.mcdermith at gmail.com (George McDermith)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 17:44:09 -0700
Subject: [Faith-talk] Left Behind Series Dramatized Radio Version
In-Reply-To: <BAY116-DAV1107163C199EBCCC0867F39C140@phx.gbl>
References: <20081101033045.45E27AC93D@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
	<BAY116-DAV1107163C199EBCCC0867F39C140@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <F8DA2FAC30A8469C996A48C3902BBD0D@OwnerPC>

    If you are a member of www.samobile.net you can downlaod them, either to 
play on your PC or on a Victor Reader Stream if you own one.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "EJ Buhrke" <ej_buhrke at hotmail.com>
To: "'Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion'" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 3:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Left Behind Series Dramatized Radio Version


> Linda,
>
> Did you get a chance to download these Left Behind Series files?  I have 
> the
> demo and the first one and have been downloading slowly but surely because
> they are so large, but today when I went to try the website said the files
> had been deleted. Do you know of where else they might be for me to be 
> able
> to get?  Thanks.  EJ
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On Behalf Of Linda Mentink
> Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 10:31 PM
> To: faith-talk at nfbnet.org; BlindWomen4Christ at yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Faith-talk] Left Behind Series Dramatized Radio Version
>
> I got this from another list, and thought some of you might want to
> know about this.
>
> Left Behind Dramatized for radio, 192KBps crisp clear audio in 48 CDs
> at SendSpace
>
> > If you like the Left Behind books I think you will like this so
> download and enjoy
> > From: Edward <<mailto:Solid.Rock%40comcast.net>Solid.Rock at comcast.net
> >
> >
> > I want to thank Scott Lawlor for initially posting this for me.
> > The Left Behind series first appeared in book form. The drama
> > revealed in these books eventually resulted in a dramatized version
> > designed for radio. It is the radio dramatized version that is
> > featured here.
> >
> > The Left Behind dramatized audio series tells the story of the end
> > times, in which many have been "raptured," leaving the world
> > shattered and chaotic. As people scramble for answers, a Romanian
> > politician named Nicolae Carpathia rises to become secretary-general
> > of the United Nations, promising to restore peace and stability to
> > all nations. What most of the world does not realize is that
> > Carpathia is actually the Antichrist foretold from the Bible. This
> > gripping christian novel depicts the rise of the anti-christ to
> > secure world power only to be challenged by the real Christ in the
> > final book The Glorious Appearing.
> >
> > Coming to grips with the truth and becoming born-again Christians,
> > Rayford Steele, his daughter Chloe, their pastor Bruce Barnes, and
> > young journalist Cameron "Buck" Williams begin their quest as the
> > Tribulation Force to help save the lost and prepare for the coming
> > Tribulation, in which God will rain down judgment on the world for
> > seven years. This complete story is told in dramatized fashion in
> > the following 12 books:
> > Left Behind
> > Tribulation Force
> > Nicolae
> > Soul Harvest
> > Apollyon
> > Assassins
> > The Indwelling
> > The Mark
> > Desecration
> > The Remnant
> > Armageddon
> > Glorious Appearing
> >
> > Although this series has been posted many times, this is your
> > opportunity to get it at a bit rate of 192KBps.
> >
> > If you just wish to sample one of the episodes before committing to
> > the entire download, you can download episode 62 - Farewell To A
> > Friend, taken from the book entitled Assassins at the following link:
> >
> >
> <http://www.sendspace.com/file/4ksxbx>http://www.sendspace.com/file/4ksxbx
> >
> > If after sampling the above episode, and you want the entire audio
> > series, then you can download The entire Left Behind Dramatized
> > version at 192KBps from the following links:
> >
> > 01 Left Behind
> > Download Part 1 Here
> >
> <http://www.sendspace.com/file/b58oiv>http://www.sendspace.com/file/b58oiv
> >
> > Download Part 2 Here
> >
> <http://www.sendspace.com/file/j7uj0o>http://www.sendspace.com/file/j7uj0o
> >
> >
> > 02 Tribulation Force
> > Download Part 1 Here
> >
> <http://www.sendspace.com/file/b47u1a>http://www.sendspace.com/file/b47u1a
> >
> > Download Part 2 Here
> >
> <http://www.sendspace.com/file/my4hlh>http://www.sendspace.com/file/my4hlh
> >
> >
> > 03 Nicolae
> > Download Part 1 Here
> >
> <http://www.sendspace.com/file/75tbtj>http://www.sendspace.com/file/75tbtj
> >
> > Download Part 2 Here
> >
> <http://www.sendspace.com/file/200soy>http://www.sendspace.com/file/200soy
> >
> >
> > 04 Soul Harvest
> > Download Part 1 Here
> >
> <http://www.sendspace.com/file/mx74m2>http://www.sendspace.com/file/mx74m2
> >
> > Download Part 2 Here
> >
> <http://www.sendspace.com/file/6k9cvu>http://www.sendspace.com/file/6k9cvu
> >
> >
> > 05 Apollyon
> > Download Part 1 Here
> >
> <http://www.sendspace.com/file/9psp5o>http://www.sendspace.com/file/9psp5o
> >
> > Download Part 2 Here
> >
> <http://www.sendspace.com/file/bj127l>http://www.sendspace.com/file/bj127l
> >
> >
> > 06 Assassins
> > Download Part 1 Here
> >
> <http://www.sendspace.com/file/fo3s7e>http://www.sendspace.com/file/fo3s7e
> >
> > Download Part 2 Here
> >
> <http://www.sendspace.com/file/u6m59n>http://www.sendspace.com/file/u6m59n
> >
> >
> > 07 The Indwelling
> > Download Part 1 Here
> >
> <http://www.sendspace.com/file/7pbuum>http://www.sendspace.com/file/7pbuum
> >
> > Download Part 2 Here
> >
> <http://www.sendspace.com/file/t4dotr>http://www.sendspace.com/file/t4dotr
> >
> >
> > 08 The Mark
> > Download Part 1 Here
> >
> <http://www.sendspace.com/file/2kz2ev>http://www.sendspace.com/file/2kz2ev
> >
> > Download Part 2 Here
> >
> <http://www.sendspace.com/file/99jzdi>http://www.sendspace.com/file/99jzdi
> >
> >
> > 09 Desecration
> > Download Part 1 Here
> >
> <http://www.sendspace.com/file/gncsyj>http://www.sendspace.com/file/gncsyj
> >
> > Download Part 2 Here
> >
> <http://www.sendspace.com/file/4ntb49>http://www.sendspace.com/file/4ntb49
> >
> >
> > 10 The Remnant
> > Download Part 1 Here
> >
> <http://www.sendspace.com/file/whtwx0>http://www.sendspace.com/file/whtwx0
> >
> > Download Part 2 Here
> >
> <http://www.sendspace.com/file/wntkrd>http://www.sendspace.com/file/wntkrd
> >
> >
> > 11 Armageddon
> > Download Part 1 Here
> >
> <http://www.sendspace.com/file/ci7hix>http://www.sendspace.com/file/ci7hix
> >
> > Download Part 2 Here
> >
> <http://www.sendspace.com/file/aq0rqm>http://www.sendspace.com/file/aq0rqm
> >
> >
> > 12 Glorious Appearing
> > Download Part 1 Here
> >
> <http://www.sendspace.com/file/15vv00>http://www.sendspace.com/file/15vv00
> >
> > Download Part 2 Here
> >
> <http://www.sendspace.com/file/r56ov9>http://www.sendspace.com/file/r56ov9
> >
> > --
> > Joey Couch
> > home phone 606-910-2128 or 606-672-6554
> > Sell 606-216-0647
> > email
> > <mailto:joey.couch%40gmail.com>joey.couch at gmail.com
> > or
> > <mailto:ki4vjd%40arrl.net>ki4vjd at arrl.net
> > check out the KCB web site by going to
> > <http://www.kentucky-acb.org>http://www.kentucky-acb.org
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ej_buhrke%40hotm
> ail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/george.mcdermith%40gmail.com 




From mentink at frontiernet.net  Thu Nov 13 00:59:31 2008
From: mentink at frontiernet.net (Linda Mentink)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 18:59:31 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Where I Sent my Survey
In-Reply-To: <68EBB4CE206C4DA0AB92130ADB0A5C02@your4dacd0ea75>
References: <68EBB4CE206C4DA0AB92130ADB0A5C02@your4dacd0ea75>
Message-ID: <20081113005932.22D2B1981C9@relay02.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>

Julie, this is on the wrong list!  send it to the music talk 
list.  Easy to do!  Smile.

At 05:30 PM 11/12/2008, you wrote:
>DHolston at nyc.rr.com
>That's where I wound up sending the survey
>
>.
>
>
>"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a 
>human soul," American Humorist Mark Twain
>
>"An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth 
>Jernigan, Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind
>
>"A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and 
>their contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
>
>"Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>
>"No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push, 1976.
>
>"With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can 
>be reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic," 
>the Late Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation 
>of the Blind.
>
>Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Faith-talk mailing list
>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>for Faith-talk:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net





From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Thu Nov 13 15:32:59 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 09:32:59 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Where I Sent my Survey
References: <68EBB4CE206C4DA0AB92130ADB0A5C02@your4dacd0ea75>
	<20081113005932.22D2B1981C9@relay02.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
Message-ID: <E1A95C9E19C34E6EA04AEC24F5CF7110@your4dacd0ea75>

The man wrote me back and sent it to the rightful place.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Linda Mentink" <mentink at frontiernet.net>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 6:59 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Where I Sent my Survey


> Julie, this is on the wrong list!  send it to the music talk
> list.  Easy to do!  Smile.
>
> At 05:30 PM 11/12/2008, you wrote:
>>DHolston at nyc.rr.com
>>That's where I wound up sending the survey
>>
>>.
>>
>>
>>"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a
>>human soul," American Humorist Mark Twain
>>
>>"An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth
>>Jernigan, Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind
>>
>>"A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and
>>their contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
>>
>>"Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>>
>>"No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push, 
>>1976.
>>
>>"With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can
>>be reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic,"
>>the Late Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation
>>of the Blind.
>>
>>Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Faith-talk mailing list
>>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>for Faith-talk:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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From everettg at successfuladaptations.com  Thu Nov 13 16:00:07 2008
From: everettg at successfuladaptations.com (Everett Gavel)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 11:00:07 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Fw: BreakPoint: So Much for Tolerance, 11/13/08
Message-ID: <002001c945a8$e6813720$15d59b63@IBMB7D6F383D44>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "BreakPoint" <prison_fellowship at informz.net>
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 10:42 AM
Subject: BreakPoint: So Much for Tolerance, 11/13/08

***************************
BREAKPOINT DAILY TRANSCRIPT
***************************

So Much for Tolerance
The Aftermath of Prop 8

November 13, 2008

The ad ran all over California on Election Day -- and 
surely sets a record for anti-religious bigotry. Two 
clean-cut young men knock at the door of a lesbian 
couple. The men identify themselves as Mormon 
missionaries. "We're here to take away your rights," 
they announce.

They snatch the women's wedding rings off their fingers 
and ransack their home. When they find the couple's 
marriage license, they rip it in half. "Say no to a 
church taking over your government," the voiceover 
says. "Vote 'no' on Proposition 8."

Despite such vicious attacks, California's Proposition 
8, which defined marriage as between one man and one 
woman, passed. But the assaults on churches have just 
begun.

Two days after the election, 2,000 homosexual 
protesters surrounded a Mormon temple in Los Angeles 
chanting "Mormon scum." Protesters picketed Rick 
Warren's Saddleback Church, holding signs reading 
"Purpose-Driven Hate." Calvary Chapel in Chino Hills 
was spray painted. Church members' cars have been 
vandalized, and at least two Christians were assaulted. 
Protesters even hurled racial epithets at 
African-Americans because African-Americans voted 
overwhelmingly in favor of traditional marriage.

This is an outrage. What hypocrisy from those who spend 
all of their time preaching tolerance to the rest of 
us!  How dare they threaten and attack political 
opponents? We live a democratic country, not a banana 
republic ruled by thugs.

Clearly, Christians need to redouble their efforts to 
help people understand what marriage is all about. In 
Los Angeles, when protesters gathered at the Cathedral 
of Our Lady of the Angels, they chanted, "What Would 
Jesus say?"

That's a good question, and the Church should not 
hesitate to answer it. What would Jesus say about 
same-sex "marriage?"

To get to the answer, let's first understand the 
meaning and purpose of marriage. In his book THE CLASH 
OF ORTHODOXIES, Princeton philosopher Robert George 
writes that matrimonial law reflects a moral 
judgment -- that marriage is inherently heterosexual, 
monogamous, and permanent -- a union of one man and one 
woman.

This view reflects the biblical and natural law 
understanding that marriage is a two-in-one-flesh 
communion of persons. This communion is consummated by 
sexual acts that are reproductive in nature. They unite 
the spouses as a single procreative unit -- an organic 
unity achieved even by infertile couples. Only a mated 
pair can be a complete organism capable of human 
procreation.

Since homosexual acts have no relationship to 
procreation and cannot unite persons organically, these 
acts cannot be marital -- which means relationships 
integrated around them cannot be marriages.

We've got a winsome case, but we've got to get better 
equipped to explain it to our neighbors. You could 
start by reading THE CLASH OF ORTHODOXIES and other 
material available on our website. And then, start 
discussing these issues in your small groups, Sunday 
school classes, and youth groups.

By protecting traditional marriage, we aren't taking 
away anybody's rights. We are simply upholding the 
framework of society's most basic institution, the loss 
of which would irreparably damage our families and our 
society.


Get links to further information on today's topic 
(http://www.breakpoint.org/listingarticle.asp?ID=10520)



*********************
ADDITIONAL INFORMATION
*********************

CENTURIONS
--------------------------
Turn the world right side up. Learn more about the 2009 
Centurions Program 
(http://www.breakpoint.org/generic.asp?ID=2748) and how 
you can apply to study Christian worldview with Chuck 
Colson!


WILBERFORCE WEEKEND
--------------------------
Register now 
(http://www.breakpoint.org/generic.asp?ID=81) for the 
2009 Wilberforce Weekend Conference, January 16-18 in 
Lansdowne, Va.


RECOMMENDED RESOURCE
--------------------------
Charles Colson on Politics and the Christian Faith 
(https://www.pfm.org/storeitem.asp?ID=7712) (DVD)


ONLINE FEATURE
---------------------------
All Things Examined: "Teaching the Controversy: 
Students Deserve No Less" 
(http://www.breakpoint.org/listingarticle.asp?ID=10479) 
by Regis Nicoll


THE POINT
---------------------------
 . Seeking Forgiveness, Online 
(http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/the-apology-pro.html)
 . Obama Reality Check 
(http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/please-no-obama.html)
 . The Modern Holocaust? 
(http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/striped-pajamas.html)
 . Don't Forego the Foreclosed 
(http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/the-point-rad-7.html)
 . Words We Shouldn't of Used 
(http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/fun-with-words.html)

Listen to Today's Point Radio Broadcast 
(http://thepoint.breakpoint.org)



For printer-friendly version, simply visit 
www.breakpoint.org 
(http://www.informz.net/z/cjUucD9taT01MDc0NzAmcD0xJnU9MTAxNjQ1NTQ0JmxpPTE4ODMzODk/index.html) 
and click on Today's Commentary. The printer-friendly 
link is on the left-hand column.

Copyright (c) 2008 Prison Fellowship

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN 
FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.



"BreakPoint" is a daily commentary on news and trends 
from a Christian perspective. Heard on more than 1000 
radio outlets nationwide, "BreakPoint" transcripts are 
also available on the Internet.

BreakPoint is the worldview ministry of PFM (formerly 
Prison Fellowship Ministries): 44180 Riverside Parkway, 
Lansdowne, VA 20176.

Subscribe to BreakPoint 
(http://msg1svc.net/static/pfm/leadcapture/subscribe.cfm?site=BP) 
.

You are receiving this message as a subscriber to 
BreakPoint's daily newsletter.


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http://www.informzforimis.com






From wesley.burden at verizon.net  Thu Nov 13 17:13:33 2008
From: wesley.burden at verizon.net (WESLEY BURDEN)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 12:13:33 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] FW: [BlindMen4Christ] A Brighter Tomorrow
Message-ID: <5ADE917B49394981B288282C6614CD20@Buster>

 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindmen4christ-bounces at morales-family.lljfm.net
[mailto:blindmen4christ-bounces at morales-family.lljfm.net] On Behalf Of Stu
(by way of Curtis Delzer <curtis at calweb.com>)
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 12:09 PM
To: Blind men for Christ
Subject: [BlindMen4Christ] A Brighter Tomorrow

LET SURRENDER BE ACCOMPANIED BY OBEDIENCE

"Be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test
and approve what God's will is ... his good, pleasing, and perfect will."
Romans
12:2

We are challenged in our spiritual journey to surrender unto the Lordship of
Christ. We presume this is what takes place when we accept Jesus Christ as
our Savior. We are made "new creatures in Christ" and indwelt by the Holy
Spirit, but this is the start of our journey. Many erroneously think, that
having received Christ as their Savior, they no longer need to seek Him. 
Their passive spiritual condition has no growth in grace.

"Surrender" is a step of faith, when we enthrone Christ as the Lord of our
life. We recognize our inability "to be or to do" anything glorifying to the
Lord. HE must live His Life through us, if we are to be effective, fruitful,
and impact others with His Love. This does not come automatically in a ?neat
package' with our salvation. The "surrender" of our heart must accompany
"obedience" in our life.

The old "Adamic nature," is motivated by SELF ... selfish interests,
concerns, gratification, and other self-directed activity and thought ...
which still resides within us, and seeks to appeal to our fleshly desires.
This must be mortified, put to death, as Paul exhorts to every Believer. 
Christ must be
the Priority of our life and supersede all other concerns, when we turn over
the reins of our life to HIS control.

Surrender of our heart and Obedience in our life should go hand-in-hand, but
often they do not. We may take a step of surrender, but ?hold on' to the
desire to do "what we want to do." Obedience must be the great desire of our
heart and life, before every other consideration.

Paul says, the most reasonable thing we can do, is to "Offer your bodies as
living sacrifices, holy, and pleasing to God, this is your spiritual act of
worship." The incomprehensible love of God, His mercy and grace manifested
to us ... should propel us forward in every encounter, and compel us to take
up our cross daily and follow Him.

Well, might we ask ourselves, "What is the most important thing in our life?
What or Who controls our life? What are we living for? What are we investing
our time and energy to accomplish? When our journey is over, how has our
life been spent? What part did Jesus Christ have in all the activities of
our life? Was Jesus Christ simply an appendix to our daily life, or the ONE
who was the Authority and Sovereign of our life?" These are penetrating
questions we all need to confront and answer honestly.

You see, the "Surrender" of our will only finds its significance and
fulfillment when it is accompanied by "Obedience" of our heart and life to
His Will.
Surrender has no meaning if we resist in following in obedience. It is like
"knowing about Christ" compared to "knowing Him experimentally" through a
personal encounter with Him ... having intimate fellowship with Him ... and
walking daily in His glorious companionship.

Surrender finds its delight, joy, hope, and peace when accompanied by
Obedience. This is the object of Christ being the Lord of our lives ... that
we may be "conformed to the image of His Son." May it be the longing of our
hearts and the joy of our life, as we walk in simple child-like faith. "Let
us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith" ... with
Surrendered Hearts and a Walk in Obedience to His Will.


Stu
<mailto:K5stu at sbcglobal.net>K5stu at sbcglobal.net
Reading your Bible today will help prepare you for A Brighter Tomorrow!
_______________________________________________
BlindMen4Christ mailing list
BlindMen4Christ at morales-family.lljfm.net
http://morales-family.lljfm.net/mailman/listinfo/blindmen4christ_morales-fam
ily.lljfm.net




From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Thu Nov 13 17:55:05 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 12:55:05 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] FW: [BlindMen4Christ] A Brighter Tomorrow
In-Reply-To: <5ADE917B49394981B288282C6614CD20@Buster>
References: <5ADE917B49394981B288282C6614CD20@Buster>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811130955q18f88852mdba001167232a333@mail.gmail.com>

I guess I have to surrender to God more, and let go of my desires.
THis in part I have done.
Beth

On 11/13/08, WESLEY BURDEN <wesley.burden at verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindmen4christ-bounces at morales-family.lljfm.net
> [mailto:blindmen4christ-bounces at morales-family.lljfm.net] On Behalf Of Stu
> (by way of Curtis Delzer <curtis at calweb.com>)
> Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 12:09 PM
> To: Blind men for Christ
> Subject: [BlindMen4Christ] A Brighter Tomorrow
>
> LET SURRENDER BE ACCOMPANIED BY OBEDIENCE
>
> "Be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test
> and approve what God's will is ... his good, pleasing, and perfect will."
> Romans
> 12:2
>
> We are challenged in our spiritual journey to surrender unto the Lordship of
> Christ. We presume this is what takes place when we accept Jesus Christ as
> our Savior. We are made "new creatures in Christ" and indwelt by the Holy
> Spirit, but this is the start of our journey. Many erroneously think, that
> having received Christ as their Savior, they no longer need to seek Him.
> Their passive spiritual condition has no growth in grace.
>
> "Surrender" is a step of faith, when we enthrone Christ as the Lord of our
> life. We recognize our inability "to be or to do" anything glorifying to the
> Lord. HE must live His Life through us, if we are to be effective, fruitful,
> and impact others with His Love. This does not come automatically in a ?neat
> package' with our salvation. The "surrender" of our heart must accompany
> "obedience" in our life.
>
> The old "Adamic nature," is motivated by SELF ... selfish interests,
> concerns, gratification, and other self-directed activity and thought ...
> which still resides within us, and seeks to appeal to our fleshly desires.
> This must be mortified, put to death, as Paul exhorts to every Believer.
> Christ must be
> the Priority of our life and supersede all other concerns, when we turn over
> the reins of our life to HIS control.
>
> Surrender of our heart and Obedience in our life should go hand-in-hand, but
> often they do not. We may take a step of surrender, but ?hold on' to the
> desire to do "what we want to do." Obedience must be the great desire of our
> heart and life, before every other consideration.
>
> Paul says, the most reasonable thing we can do, is to "Offer your bodies as
> living sacrifices, holy, and pleasing to God, this is your spiritual act of
> worship." The incomprehensible love of God, His mercy and grace manifested
> to us ... should propel us forward in every encounter, and compel us to take
> up our cross daily and follow Him.
>
> Well, might we ask ourselves, "What is the most important thing in our life?
> What or Who controls our life? What are we living for? What are we investing
> our time and energy to accomplish? When our journey is over, how has our
> life been spent? What part did Jesus Christ have in all the activities of
> our life? Was Jesus Christ simply an appendix to our daily life, or the ONE
> who was the Authority and Sovereign of our life?" These are penetrating
> questions we all need to confront and answer honestly.
>
> You see, the "Surrender" of our will only finds its significance and
> fulfillment when it is accompanied by "Obedience" of our heart and life to
> His Will.
> Surrender has no meaning if we resist in following in obedience. It is like
> "knowing about Christ" compared to "knowing Him experimentally" through a
> personal encounter with Him ... having intimate fellowship with Him ... and
> walking daily in His glorious companionship.
>
> Surrender finds its delight, joy, hope, and peace when accompanied by
> Obedience. This is the object of Christ being the Lord of our lives ... that
> we may be "conformed to the image of His Son." May it be the longing of our
> hearts and the joy of our life, as we walk in simple child-like faith. "Let
> us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith" ... with
> Surrendered Hearts and a Walk in Obedience to His Will.
>
>
> Stu
> <mailto:K5stu at sbcglobal.net>K5stu at sbcglobal.net
> Reading your Bible today will help prepare you for A Brighter Tomorrow!
> _______________________________________________
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> http://morales-family.lljfm.net/mailman/listinfo/blindmen4christ_morales-fam
> ily.lljfm.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
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>



From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Thu Nov 13 17:59:57 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 12:59:57 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Fw: BreakPoint: So Much for Tolerance, 11/13/08
In-Reply-To: <002001c945a8$e6813720$15d59b63@IBMB7D6F383D44>
References: <002001c945a8$e6813720$15d59b63@IBMB7D6F383D44>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811130959v69706825y1446987eb0d9e692@mail.gmail.com>

Interesting.  I believe those "mormons" and those other so-called
Christian hyppocrites did take away the women's rights.  I'm sorry but
to end this thread, I want to say that my friends who are gay will not
be living in California because of what happened with Prop. 8.
Beth

On 11/13/08, Everett Gavel <everettg at successfuladaptations.com> wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "BreakPoint" <prison_fellowship at informz.net>
> Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 10:42 AM
> Subject: BreakPoint: So Much for Tolerance, 11/13/08
>
> ***************************
> BREAKPOINT DAILY TRANSCRIPT
> ***************************
>
> So Much for Tolerance
> The Aftermath of Prop 8
>
> November 13, 2008
>
> The ad ran all over California on Election Day -- and
> surely sets a record for anti-religious bigotry. Two
> clean-cut young men knock at the door of a lesbian
> couple. The men identify themselves as Mormon
> missionaries. "We're here to take away your rights,"
> they announce.
>
> They snatch the women's wedding rings off their fingers
> and ransack their home. When they find the couple's
> marriage license, they rip it in half. "Say no to a
> church taking over your government," the voiceover
> says. "Vote 'no' on Proposition 8."
>
> Despite such vicious attacks, California's Proposition
> 8, which defined marriage as between one man and one
> woman, passed. But the assaults on churches have just
> begun.
>
> Two days after the election, 2,000 homosexual
> protesters surrounded a Mormon temple in Los Angeles
> chanting "Mormon scum." Protesters picketed Rick
> Warren's Saddleback Church, holding signs reading
> "Purpose-Driven Hate." Calvary Chapel in Chino Hills
> was spray painted. Church members' cars have been
> vandalized, and at least two Christians were assaulted.
> Protesters even hurled racial epithets at
> African-Americans because African-Americans voted
> overwhelmingly in favor of traditional marriage.
>
> This is an outrage. What hypocrisy from those who spend
> all of their time preaching tolerance to the rest of
> us!  How dare they threaten and attack political
> opponents? We live a democratic country, not a banana
> republic ruled by thugs.
>
> Clearly, Christians need to redouble their efforts to
> help people understand what marriage is all about. In
> Los Angeles, when protesters gathered at the Cathedral
> of Our Lady of the Angels, they chanted, "What Would
> Jesus say?"
>
> That's a good question, and the Church should not
> hesitate to answer it. What would Jesus say about
> same-sex "marriage?"
>
> To get to the answer, let's first understand the
> meaning and purpose of marriage. In his book THE CLASH
> OF ORTHODOXIES, Princeton philosopher Robert George
> writes that matrimonial law reflects a moral
> judgment -- that marriage is inherently heterosexual,
> monogamous, and permanent -- a union of one man and one
> woman.
>
> This view reflects the biblical and natural law
> understanding that marriage is a two-in-one-flesh
> communion of persons. This communion is consummated by
> sexual acts that are reproductive in nature. They unite
> the spouses as a single procreative unit -- an organic
> unity achieved even by infertile couples. Only a mated
> pair can be a complete organism capable of human
> procreation.
>
> Since homosexual acts have no relationship to
> procreation and cannot unite persons organically, these
> acts cannot be marital -- which means relationships
> integrated around them cannot be marriages.
>
> We've got a winsome case, but we've got to get better
> equipped to explain it to our neighbors. You could
> start by reading THE CLASH OF ORTHODOXIES and other
> material available on our website. And then, start
> discussing these issues in your small groups, Sunday
> school classes, and youth groups.
>
> By protecting traditional marriage, we aren't taking
> away anybody's rights. We are simply upholding the
> framework of society's most basic institution, the loss
> of which would irreparably damage our families and our
> society.
>
>
> Get links to further information on today's topic
> (http://www.breakpoint.org/listingarticle.asp?ID=10520)
>
>
>
> *********************
> ADDITIONAL INFORMATION
> *********************
>
> CENTURIONS
> --------------------------
> Turn the world right side up. Learn more about the 2009
> Centurions Program
> (http://www.breakpoint.org/generic.asp?ID=2748) and how
> you can apply to study Christian worldview with Chuck
> Colson!
>
>
> WILBERFORCE WEEKEND
> --------------------------
> Register now
> (http://www.breakpoint.org/generic.asp?ID=81) for the
> 2009 Wilberforce Weekend Conference, January 16-18 in
> Lansdowne, Va.
>
>
> RECOMMENDED RESOURCE
> --------------------------
> Charles Colson on Politics and the Christian Faith
> (https://www.pfm.org/storeitem.asp?ID=7712) (DVD)
>
>
> ONLINE FEATURE
> ---------------------------
> All Things Examined: "Teaching the Controversy:
> Students Deserve No Less"
> (http://www.breakpoint.org/listingarticle.asp?ID=10479)
> by Regis Nicoll
>
>
> THE POINT
> ---------------------------
>  . Seeking Forgiveness, Online
> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/the-apology-pro.html)
>  . Obama Reality Check
> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/please-no-obama.html)
>  . The Modern Holocaust?
> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/striped-pajamas.html)
>  . Don't Forego the Foreclosed
> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/the-point-rad-7.html)
>  . Words We Shouldn't of Used
> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/fun-with-words.html)
>
> Listen to Today's Point Radio Broadcast
> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org)
>
>
>
> For printer-friendly version, simply visit
> www.breakpoint.org
> (http://www.informz.net/z/cjUucD9taT01MDc0NzAmcD0xJnU9MTAxNjQ1NTQ0JmxpPTE4ODMzODk/index.html)
> and click on Today's Commentary. The printer-friendly
> link is on the left-hand column.
>
> Copyright (c) 2008 Prison Fellowship
>
> THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN
> FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
>
>
>
> "BreakPoint" is a daily commentary on news and trends
> from a Christian perspective. Heard on more than 1000
> radio outlets nationwide, "BreakPoint" transcripts are
> also available on the Internet.
>
> BreakPoint is the worldview ministry of PFM (formerly
> Prison Fellowship Ministries): 44180 Riverside Parkway,
> Lansdowne, VA 20176.
>
> Subscribe to BreakPoint
> (http://msg1svc.net/static/pfm/leadcapture/subscribe.cfm?site=BP)
> .
>
> You are receiving this message as a subscriber to
> BreakPoint's daily newsletter.
>
>
> Powered by Informz for iMIS
> http://www.informzforimis.com
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
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>



From lauraeaves at yahoo.com  Thu Nov 13 18:00:08 2008
From: lauraeaves at yahoo.com (tribble)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 12:00:08 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Fw: BreakPoint: So Much for Tolerance, 11/13/08
References: <002001c945a8$e6813720$15d59b63@IBMB7D6F383D44>
Message-ID: <8AEF26276C9D40F8A07359A4F618FFA1@bassclef>

that's weird -- I doubt the 2 young men in the report were really mormon 
missionaries as while the mormons campaign vigorously against same sex 
marriage, they wouldn't have committed a crime (stealing rings and 
ransacking a house). Must have been a front used by 2 guys looking for 
trouble.
My church is adamantly against same sex unions, but I personally wonder 
about the justification for banning them as the people involved would be 
living a gay lifestyle to begin with and changing the legal status wouldn't 
affect anyone else -- I understand wanting the name to be different: "civil 
union" as opposed to marriage.  My friends at church say they oppose any 
kind of union as that would put them in a contract that would be harder to 
get out of should they change their mindset, even if the contract was not 
deemed a "marriage".
Is this a can of worms that we don't want to open on this list?
I have to teach a lesson on marriage this coming sunday so am thinking about 
it in case one of the kids brings it up...
Take care.
--le


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Everett Gavel" <everettg at successfuladaptations.com>
To: <Undisclosed-Recipient:;>
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 10:00 AM
Subject: [Faith-talk] Fw: BreakPoint: So Much for Tolerance, 11/13/08



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "BreakPoint" <prison_fellowship at informz.net>
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 10:42 AM
Subject: BreakPoint: So Much for Tolerance, 11/13/08

***************************
BREAKPOINT DAILY TRANSCRIPT
***************************

So Much for Tolerance
The Aftermath of Prop 8

November 13, 2008

The ad ran all over California on Election Day -- and
surely sets a record for anti-religious bigotry. Two
clean-cut young men knock at the door of a lesbian
couple. The men identify themselves as Mormon
missionaries. "We're here to take away your rights,"
they announce.

They snatch the women's wedding rings off their fingers
and ransack their home. When they find the couple's
marriage license, they rip it in half. "Say no to a
church taking over your government," the voiceover
says. "Vote 'no' on Proposition 8."

Despite such vicious attacks, California's Proposition
8, which defined marriage as between one man and one
woman, passed. But the assaults on churches have just
begun.

Two days after the election, 2,000 homosexual
protesters surrounded a Mormon temple in Los Angeles
chanting "Mormon scum." Protesters picketed Rick
Warren's Saddleback Church, holding signs reading
"Purpose-Driven Hate." Calvary Chapel in Chino Hills
was spray painted. Church members' cars have been
vandalized, and at least two Christians were assaulted.
Protesters even hurled racial epithets at
African-Americans because African-Americans voted
overwhelmingly in favor of traditional marriage.

This is an outrage. What hypocrisy from those who spend
all of their time preaching tolerance to the rest of
us!  How dare they threaten and attack political
opponents? We live a democratic country, not a banana
republic ruled by thugs.

Clearly, Christians need to redouble their efforts to
help people understand what marriage is all about. In
Los Angeles, when protesters gathered at the Cathedral
of Our Lady of the Angels, they chanted, "What Would
Jesus say?"

That's a good question, and the Church should not
hesitate to answer it. What would Jesus say about
same-sex "marriage?"

To get to the answer, let's first understand the
meaning and purpose of marriage. In his book THE CLASH
OF ORTHODOXIES, Princeton philosopher Robert George
writes that matrimonial law reflects a moral
judgment -- that marriage is inherently heterosexual,
monogamous, and permanent -- a union of one man and one
woman.

This view reflects the biblical and natural law
understanding that marriage is a two-in-one-flesh
communion of persons. This communion is consummated by
sexual acts that are reproductive in nature. They unite
the spouses as a single procreative unit -- an organic
unity achieved even by infertile couples. Only a mated
pair can be a complete organism capable of human
procreation.

Since homosexual acts have no relationship to
procreation and cannot unite persons organically, these
acts cannot be marital -- which means relationships
integrated around them cannot be marriages.

We've got a winsome case, but we've got to get better
equipped to explain it to our neighbors. You could
start by reading THE CLASH OF ORTHODOXIES and other
material available on our website. And then, start
discussing these issues in your small groups, Sunday
school classes, and youth groups.

By protecting traditional marriage, we aren't taking
away anybody's rights. We are simply upholding the
framework of society's most basic institution, the loss
of which would irreparably damage our families and our
society.


Get links to further information on today's topic
(http://www.breakpoint.org/listingarticle.asp?ID=10520)



*********************
ADDITIONAL INFORMATION
*********************

CENTURIONS
--------------------------
Turn the world right side up. Learn more about the 2009
Centurions Program
(http://www.breakpoint.org/generic.asp?ID=2748) and how
you can apply to study Christian worldview with Chuck
Colson!


WILBERFORCE WEEKEND
--------------------------
Register now
(http://www.breakpoint.org/generic.asp?ID=81) for the
2009 Wilberforce Weekend Conference, January 16-18 in
Lansdowne, Va.


RECOMMENDED RESOURCE
--------------------------
Charles Colson on Politics and the Christian Faith
(https://www.pfm.org/storeitem.asp?ID=7712) (DVD)


ONLINE FEATURE
---------------------------
All Things Examined: "Teaching the Controversy:
Students Deserve No Less"
(http://www.breakpoint.org/listingarticle.asp?ID=10479)
by Regis Nicoll


THE POINT
---------------------------
 . Seeking Forgiveness, Online
(http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/the-apology-pro.html)
 . Obama Reality Check
(http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/please-no-obama.html)
 . The Modern Holocaust?
(http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/striped-pajamas.html)
 . Don't Forego the Foreclosed
(http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/the-point-rad-7.html)
 . Words We Shouldn't of Used
(http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/fun-with-words.html)

Listen to Today's Point Radio Broadcast
(http://thepoint.breakpoint.org)



For printer-friendly version, simply visit
www.breakpoint.org
(http://www.informz.net/z/cjUucD9taT01MDc0NzAmcD0xJnU9MTAxNjQ1NTQ0JmxpPTE4ODMzODk/index.html)
and click on Today's Commentary. The printer-friendly
link is on the left-hand column.

Copyright (c) 2008 Prison Fellowship

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN
FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.



"BreakPoint" is a daily commentary on news and trends
from a Christian perspective. Heard on more than 1000
radio outlets nationwide, "BreakPoint" transcripts are
also available on the Internet.

BreakPoint is the worldview ministry of PFM (formerly
Prison Fellowship Ministries): 44180 Riverside Parkway,
Lansdowne, VA 20176.

Subscribe to BreakPoint
(http://msg1svc.net/static/pfm/leadcapture/subscribe.cfm?site=BP)
.

You are receiving this message as a subscriber to
BreakPoint's daily newsletter.


Powered by Informz for iMIS
http://www.informzforimis.com




_______________________________________________
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Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
Faith-talk:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/lauraeaves%40yahoo.com 




From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Thu Nov 13 18:28:37 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 12:28:37 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Dennis's E-mail about Survey
Message-ID: <BD1061ED0C974ABC9037A8042C27BE42@your4dacd0ea75>

Hello.
Thanks for getting back.  You can feel free to send my e-mail to the Faith Talk list.  DHolston at nyc.rr.com

Remember, they can fill the survey out online at the website. www.padnfb.org

"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul," American Humorist Mark Twain

"An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind

"A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV

"Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)

"No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push, 1976.

"With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic," the Late Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation of the Blind.

Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com 





From everettg at successfuladaptations.com  Thu Nov 13 18:31:39 2008
From: everettg at successfuladaptations.com (Everett Gavel)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 13:31:39 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Fw: BreakPoint: So Much for Tolerance, 11/13/08
References: <002001c945a8$e6813720$15d59b63@IBMB7D6F383D44>
	<8AEF26276C9D40F8A07359A4F618FFA1@bassclef>
Message-ID: <000f01c945be$11a63da0$15d59b63@IBMB7D6F383D44>

Unfortunately, some of you seem to have misunderstood 
what was forwarded.  Please read again, and read 
slowly, with some attention to the details.  The bit 
about the two mormons visiting and forcing themselves 
into the home of the "lesbian couple," was a political 
*advertisement* against Prop 8.  It was not real.  What 
was real, however, and was the reason I forwarded it, 
was to show that the hatred and (although minor, thus 
far, compared to other countries) persecution of 
Christians is here and alive in the USA.

Strive On,
Everett


----- Original Message ----- 
that's weird -- I doubt the 2 young men in the report 
were really mormon
missionaries as while the mormons campaign vigorously 
against same sex
marriage, they wouldn't have committed a crime 
(stealing rings and
ransacking a house). Must have been a front used by 2 
guys looking for
trouble.
My church is adamantly against same sex unions, but I 
personally wonder
about the justification for banning them as the people 
involved would be
living a gay lifestyle to begin with and changing the 
legal status wouldn't
affect anyone else -- I understand wanting the name to 
be different: "civil
union" as opposed to marriage.  My friends at church 
say they oppose any
kind of union as that would put them in a contract that 
would be harder to
get out of should they change their mindset, even if 
the contract was not
deemed a "marriage".
Is this a can of worms that we don't want to open on 
this list?
I have to teach a lesson on marriage this coming sunday 
so am thinking about
it in case one of the kids brings it up...
Take care.
--le


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "BreakPoint" <prison_fellowship at informz.net>
Subject: BreakPoint: So Much for Tolerance, 11/13/08

***************************
BREAKPOINT DAILY TRANSCRIPT
***************************

So Much for Tolerance
The Aftermath of Prop 8

November 13, 2008

The ad ran all over California on Election Day -- and
surely sets a record for anti-religious bigotry. Two
clean-cut young men knock at the door of a lesbian
couple. The men identify themselves as Mormon
missionaries. "We're here to take away your rights,"
they announce.

They snatch the women's wedding rings off their fingers
and ransack their home. When they find the couple's
marriage license, they rip it in half. "Say no to a
church taking over your government," the voiceover
says. "Vote 'no' on Proposition 8."

Despite such vicious attacks, California's Proposition
8, which defined marriage as between one man and one
woman, passed. But the assaults on churches have just
begun.

Two days after the election, 2,000 homosexual
protesters surrounded a Mormon temple in Los Angeles
chanting "Mormon scum." Protesters picketed Rick
Warren's Saddleback Church, holding signs reading
"Purpose-Driven Hate." Calvary Chapel in Chino Hills
was spray painted. Church members' cars have been
vandalized, and at least two Christians were assaulted.
Protesters even hurled racial epithets at
African-Americans because African-Americans voted
overwhelmingly in favor of traditional marriage.

This is an outrage. What hypocrisy from those who spend
all of their time preaching tolerance to the rest of
us!  How dare they threaten and attack political
opponents? We live a democratic country, not a banana
republic ruled by thugs.

Clearly, Christians need to redouble their efforts to
help people understand what marriage is all about. In
Los Angeles, when protesters gathered at the Cathedral
of Our Lady of the Angels, they chanted, "What Would
Jesus say?"

That's a good question, and the Church should not
hesitate to answer it. What would Jesus say about
same-sex "marriage?"

To get to the answer, let's first understand the
meaning and purpose of marriage. In his book THE CLASH
OF ORTHODOXIES, Princeton philosopher Robert George
writes that matrimonial law reflects a moral
judgment -- that marriage is inherently heterosexual,
monogamous, and permanent -- a union of one man and one
woman.

This view reflects the biblical and natural law
understanding that marriage is a two-in-one-flesh
communion of persons. This communion is consummated by
sexual acts that are reproductive in nature. They unite
the spouses as a single procreative unit -- an organic
unity achieved even by infertile couples. Only a mated
pair can be a complete organism capable of human
procreation.

Since homosexual acts have no relationship to
procreation and cannot unite persons organically, these
acts cannot be marital -- which means relationships
integrated around them cannot be marriages.

We've got a winsome case, but we've got to get better
equipped to explain it to our neighbors. You could
start by reading THE CLASH OF ORTHODOXIES and other
material available on our website. And then, start
discussing these issues in your small groups, Sunday
school classes, and youth groups.

By protecting traditional marriage, we aren't taking
away anybody's rights. We are simply upholding the
framework of society's most basic institution, the loss
of which would irreparably damage our families and our
society.


Get links to further information on today's topic
(http://www.breakpoint.org/listingarticle.asp?ID=10520)



*********************
ADDITIONAL INFORMATION
*********************

CENTURIONS
--------------------------
Turn the world right side up. Learn more about the 2009
Centurions Program
(http://www.breakpoint.org/generic.asp?ID=2748) and how
you can apply to study Christian worldview with Chuck
Colson!


WILBERFORCE WEEKEND
--------------------------
Register now
(http://www.breakpoint.org/generic.asp?ID=81) for the
2009 Wilberforce Weekend Conference, January 16-18 in
Lansdowne, Va.


RECOMMENDED RESOURCE
--------------------------
Charles Colson on Politics and the Christian Faith
(https://www.pfm.org/storeitem.asp?ID=7712) (DVD)


ONLINE FEATURE
---------------------------
All Things Examined: "Teaching the Controversy:
Students Deserve No Less"
(http://www.breakpoint.org/listingarticle.asp?ID=10479)
by Regis Nicoll


THE POINT
---------------------------
. Seeking Forgiveness, Online
(http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/the-apology-pro.html)
. Obama Reality Check
(http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/please-no-obama.html)
. The Modern Holocaust?
(http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/striped-pajamas.html)
. Don't Forego the Foreclosed
(http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/the-point-rad-7.html)
. Words We Shouldn't of Used
(http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/fun-with-words.html)

Listen to Today's Point Radio Broadcast
(http://thepoint.breakpoint.org)



For printer-friendly version, simply visit
www.breakpoint.org
(http://www.informz.net/z/cjUucD9taT01MDc0NzAmcD0xJnU9MTAxNjQ1NTQ0JmxpPTE4ODMzODk/index.html)
and click on Today's Commentary. The printer-friendly
link is on the left-hand column.

Copyright (c) 2008 Prison Fellowship

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN
FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.



"BreakPoint" is a daily commentary on news and trends
from a Christian perspective. Heard on more than 1000
radio outlets nationwide, "BreakPoint" transcripts are
also available on the Internet.

BreakPoint is the worldview ministry of PFM (formerly
Prison Fellowship Ministries): 44180 Riverside Parkway,
Lansdowne, VA 20176.

Subscribe to BreakPoint
(http://msg1svc.net/static/pfm/leadcapture/subscribe.cfm?site=BP)
.

You are receiving this message as a subscriber to
BreakPoint's daily newsletter.


Powered by Informz for iMIS
http://www.informzforimis.com








From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Thu Nov 13 18:59:38 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 12:59:38 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Fw: BreakPoint: So Much for Tolerance, 11/13/08
References: <002001c945a8$e6813720$15d59b63@IBMB7D6F383D44>
	<4383d01d0811130959v69706825y1446987eb0d9e692@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B0F6B23FEACB4BCF8ED1E771D36BC158@your4dacd0ea75>

Since when is it lawful for Christians to go to peoples' doors and all but 
ransack their houses for a marriage license and a wedding ring?


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "Everett Gavel" <EverettG at successfuladaptations.com>; "Faith-talk,for 
the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 11:59 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Fw: BreakPoint: So Much for Tolerance, 11/13/08


> Interesting.  I believe those "mormons" and those other so-called
> Christian hyppocrites did take away the women's rights.  I'm sorry but
> to end this thread, I want to say that my friends who are gay will not
> be living in California because of what happened with Prop. 8.
> Beth
>
> On 11/13/08, Everett Gavel <everettg at successfuladaptations.com> wrote:
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "BreakPoint" <prison_fellowship at informz.net>
>> Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 10:42 AM
>> Subject: BreakPoint: So Much for Tolerance, 11/13/08
>>
>> ***************************
>> BREAKPOINT DAILY TRANSCRIPT
>> ***************************
>>
>> So Much for Tolerance
>> The Aftermath of Prop 8
>>
>> November 13, 2008
>>
>> The ad ran all over California on Election Day -- and
>> surely sets a record for anti-religious bigotry. Two
>> clean-cut young men knock at the door of a lesbian
>> couple. The men identify themselves as Mormon
>> missionaries. "We're here to take away your rights,"
>> they announce.
>>
>> They snatch the women's wedding rings off their fingers
>> and ransack their home. When they find the couple's
>> marriage license, they rip it in half. "Say no to a
>> church taking over your government," the voiceover
>> says. "Vote 'no' on Proposition 8."
>>
>> Despite such vicious attacks, California's Proposition
>> 8, which defined marriage as between one man and one
>> woman, passed. But the assaults on churches have just
>> begun.
>>
>> Two days after the election, 2,000 homosexual
>> protesters surrounded a Mormon temple in Los Angeles
>> chanting "Mormon scum." Protesters picketed Rick
>> Warren's Saddleback Church, holding signs reading
>> "Purpose-Driven Hate." Calvary Chapel in Chino Hills
>> was spray painted. Church members' cars have been
>> vandalized, and at least two Christians were assaulted.
>> Protesters even hurled racial epithets at
>> African-Americans because African-Americans voted
>> overwhelmingly in favor of traditional marriage.
>>
>> This is an outrage. What hypocrisy from those who spend
>> all of their time preaching tolerance to the rest of
>> us!  How dare they threaten and attack political
>> opponents? We live a democratic country, not a banana
>> republic ruled by thugs.
>>
>> Clearly, Christians need to redouble their efforts to
>> help people understand what marriage is all about. In
>> Los Angeles, when protesters gathered at the Cathedral
>> of Our Lady of the Angels, they chanted, "What Would
>> Jesus say?"
>>
>> That's a good question, and the Church should not
>> hesitate to answer it. What would Jesus say about
>> same-sex "marriage?"
>>
>> To get to the answer, let's first understand the
>> meaning and purpose of marriage. In his book THE CLASH
>> OF ORTHODOXIES, Princeton philosopher Robert George
>> writes that matrimonial law reflects a moral
>> judgment -- that marriage is inherently heterosexual,
>> monogamous, and permanent -- a union of one man and one
>> woman.
>>
>> This view reflects the biblical and natural law
>> understanding that marriage is a two-in-one-flesh
>> communion of persons. This communion is consummated by
>> sexual acts that are reproductive in nature. They unite
>> the spouses as a single procreative unit -- an organic
>> unity achieved even by infertile couples. Only a mated
>> pair can be a complete organism capable of human
>> procreation.
>>
>> Since homosexual acts have no relationship to
>> procreation and cannot unite persons organically, these
>> acts cannot be marital -- which means relationships
>> integrated around them cannot be marriages.
>>
>> We've got a winsome case, but we've got to get better
>> equipped to explain it to our neighbors. You could
>> start by reading THE CLASH OF ORTHODOXIES and other
>> material available on our website. And then, start
>> discussing these issues in your small groups, Sunday
>> school classes, and youth groups.
>>
>> By protecting traditional marriage, we aren't taking
>> away anybody's rights. We are simply upholding the
>> framework of society's most basic institution, the loss
>> of which would irreparably damage our families and our
>> society.
>>
>>
>> Get links to further information on today's topic
>> (http://www.breakpoint.org/listingarticle.asp?ID=10520)
>>
>>
>>
>> *********************
>> ADDITIONAL INFORMATION
>> *********************
>>
>> CENTURIONS
>> --------------------------
>> Turn the world right side up. Learn more about the 2009
>> Centurions Program
>> (http://www.breakpoint.org/generic.asp?ID=2748) and how
>> you can apply to study Christian worldview with Chuck
>> Colson!
>>
>>
>> WILBERFORCE WEEKEND
>> --------------------------
>> Register now
>> (http://www.breakpoint.org/generic.asp?ID=81) for the
>> 2009 Wilberforce Weekend Conference, January 16-18 in
>> Lansdowne, Va.
>>
>>
>> RECOMMENDED RESOURCE
>> --------------------------
>> Charles Colson on Politics and the Christian Faith
>> (https://www.pfm.org/storeitem.asp?ID=7712) (DVD)
>>
>>
>> ONLINE FEATURE
>> ---------------------------
>> All Things Examined: "Teaching the Controversy:
>> Students Deserve No Less"
>> (http://www.breakpoint.org/listingarticle.asp?ID=10479)
>> by Regis Nicoll
>>
>>
>> THE POINT
>> ---------------------------
>>  . Seeking Forgiveness, Online
>> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/the-apology-pro.html)
>>  . Obama Reality Check
>> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/please-no-obama.html)
>>  . The Modern Holocaust?
>> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/striped-pajamas.html)
>>  . Don't Forego the Foreclosed
>> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/the-point-rad-7.html)
>>  . Words We Shouldn't of Used
>> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/fun-with-words.html)
>>
>> Listen to Today's Point Radio Broadcast
>> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org)
>>
>>
>>
>> For printer-friendly version, simply visit
>> www.breakpoint.org
>> (http://www.informz.net/z/cjUucD9taT01MDc0NzAmcD0xJnU9MTAxNjQ1NTQ0JmxpPTE4ODMzODk/index.html)
>> and click on Today's Commentary. The printer-friendly
>> link is on the left-hand column.
>>
>> Copyright (c) 2008 Prison Fellowship
>>
>> THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN
>> FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
>>
>>
>>
>> "BreakPoint" is a daily commentary on news and trends
>> from a Christian perspective. Heard on more than 1000
>> radio outlets nationwide, "BreakPoint" transcripts are
>> also available on the Internet.
>>
>> BreakPoint is the worldview ministry of PFM (formerly
>> Prison Fellowship Ministries): 44180 Riverside Parkway,
>> Lansdowne, VA 20176.
>>
>> Subscribe to BreakPoint
>> (http://msg1svc.net/static/pfm/leadcapture/subscribe.cfm?site=BP)
>> .
>>
>> You are receiving this message as a subscriber to
>> BreakPoint's daily newsletter.
>>
>>
>> Powered by Informz for iMIS
>> http://www.informzforimis.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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9:12 AM




From george.mcdermith at gmail.com  Thu Nov 13 19:33:47 2008
From: george.mcdermith at gmail.com (George McDermith)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 12:33:47 -0700
Subject: [Faith-talk] Fw: BreakPoint: So Much for Tolerance, 11/13/08
In-Reply-To: <4383d01d0811130959v69706825y1446987eb0d9e692@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002001c945a8$e6813720$15d59b63@IBMB7D6F383D44>
	<4383d01d0811130959v69706825y1446987eb0d9e692@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A30D6E1E83994ECA9BD029CCE94B1CF8@OwnerPC>

    I wish to add that Mormans are not Christians, looking at the historic 
and tehological differences between Mormanism and Christianity.  This does 
not however change the fact that on this issue they are quite correct, and 
regardless of whether they are or not no one deserves this sort of absurd 
hatred masking itself as a fire for "tollerence."

    Thanks for this article, I shall post it on my blog, as I believe it 
sums up well the Christian response to the marriage question.

    In Christ,

    G.W.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "Everett Gavel" <EverettG at successfuladaptations.com>; "Faith-talk,for 
the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 10:59 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Fw: BreakPoint: So Much for Tolerance, 11/13/08


> Interesting.  I believe those "mormons" and those other so-called
> Christian hyppocrites did take away the women's rights.  I'm sorry but
> to end this thread, I want to say that my friends who are gay will not
> be living in California because of what happened with Prop. 8.
> Beth
>
> On 11/13/08, Everett Gavel <everettg at successfuladaptations.com> wrote:
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "BreakPoint" <prison_fellowship at informz.net>
>> Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 10:42 AM
>> Subject: BreakPoint: So Much for Tolerance, 11/13/08
>>
>> ***************************
>> BREAKPOINT DAILY TRANSCRIPT
>> ***************************
>>
>> So Much for Tolerance
>> The Aftermath of Prop 8
>>
>> November 13, 2008
>>
>> The ad ran all over California on Election Day -- and
>> surely sets a record for anti-religious bigotry. Two
>> clean-cut young men knock at the door of a lesbian
>> couple. The men identify themselves as Mormon
>> missionaries. "We're here to take away your rights,"
>> they announce.
>>
>> They snatch the women's wedding rings off their fingers
>> and ransack their home. When they find the couple's
>> marriage license, they rip it in half. "Say no to a
>> church taking over your government," the voiceover
>> says. "Vote 'no' on Proposition 8."
>>
>> Despite such vicious attacks, California's Proposition
>> 8, which defined marriage as between one man and one
>> woman, passed. But the assaults on churches have just
>> begun.
>>
>> Two days after the election, 2,000 homosexual
>> protesters surrounded a Mormon temple in Los Angeles
>> chanting "Mormon scum." Protesters picketed Rick
>> Warren's Saddleback Church, holding signs reading
>> "Purpose-Driven Hate." Calvary Chapel in Chino Hills
>> was spray painted. Church members' cars have been
>> vandalized, and at least two Christians were assaulted.
>> Protesters even hurled racial epithets at
>> African-Americans because African-Americans voted
>> overwhelmingly in favor of traditional marriage.
>>
>> This is an outrage. What hypocrisy from those who spend
>> all of their time preaching tolerance to the rest of
>> us!  How dare they threaten and attack political
>> opponents? We live a democratic country, not a banana
>> republic ruled by thugs.
>>
>> Clearly, Christians need to redouble their efforts to
>> help people understand what marriage is all about. In
>> Los Angeles, when protesters gathered at the Cathedral
>> of Our Lady of the Angels, they chanted, "What Would
>> Jesus say?"
>>
>> That's a good question, and the Church should not
>> hesitate to answer it. What would Jesus say about
>> same-sex "marriage?"
>>
>> To get to the answer, let's first understand the
>> meaning and purpose of marriage. In his book THE CLASH
>> OF ORTHODOXIES, Princeton philosopher Robert George
>> writes that matrimonial law reflects a moral
>> judgment -- that marriage is inherently heterosexual,
>> monogamous, and permanent -- a union of one man and one
>> woman.
>>
>> This view reflects the biblical and natural law
>> understanding that marriage is a two-in-one-flesh
>> communion of persons. This communion is consummated by
>> sexual acts that are reproductive in nature. They unite
>> the spouses as a single procreative unit -- an organic
>> unity achieved even by infertile couples. Only a mated
>> pair can be a complete organism capable of human
>> procreation.
>>
>> Since homosexual acts have no relationship to
>> procreation and cannot unite persons organically, these
>> acts cannot be marital -- which means relationships
>> integrated around them cannot be marriages.
>>
>> We've got a winsome case, but we've got to get better
>> equipped to explain it to our neighbors. You could
>> start by reading THE CLASH OF ORTHODOXIES and other
>> material available on our website. And then, start
>> discussing these issues in your small groups, Sunday
>> school classes, and youth groups.
>>
>> By protecting traditional marriage, we aren't taking
>> away anybody's rights. We are simply upholding the
>> framework of society's most basic institution, the loss
>> of which would irreparably damage our families and our
>> society.
>>
>>
>> Get links to further information on today's topic
>> (http://www.breakpoint.org/listingarticle.asp?ID=10520)
>>
>>
>>
>> *********************
>> ADDITIONAL INFORMATION
>> *********************
>>
>> CENTURIONS
>> --------------------------
>> Turn the world right side up. Learn more about the 2009
>> Centurions Program
>> (http://www.breakpoint.org/generic.asp?ID=2748) and how
>> you can apply to study Christian worldview with Chuck
>> Colson!
>>
>>
>> WILBERFORCE WEEKEND
>> --------------------------
>> Register now
>> (http://www.breakpoint.org/generic.asp?ID=81) for the
>> 2009 Wilberforce Weekend Conference, January 16-18 in
>> Lansdowne, Va.
>>
>>
>> RECOMMENDED RESOURCE
>> --------------------------
>> Charles Colson on Politics and the Christian Faith
>> (https://www.pfm.org/storeitem.asp?ID=7712) (DVD)
>>
>>
>> ONLINE FEATURE
>> ---------------------------
>> All Things Examined: "Teaching the Controversy:
>> Students Deserve No Less"
>> (http://www.breakpoint.org/listingarticle.asp?ID=10479)
>> by Regis Nicoll
>>
>>
>> THE POINT
>> ---------------------------
>>  . Seeking Forgiveness, Online
>> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/the-apology-pro.html)
>>  . Obama Reality Check
>> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/please-no-obama.html)
>>  . The Modern Holocaust?
>> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/striped-pajamas.html)
>>  . Don't Forego the Foreclosed
>> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/the-point-rad-7.html)
>>  . Words We Shouldn't of Used
>> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/fun-with-words.html)
>>
>> Listen to Today's Point Radio Broadcast
>> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org)
>>
>>
>>
>> For printer-friendly version, simply visit
>> www.breakpoint.org
>> (http://www.informz.net/z/cjUucD9taT01MDc0NzAmcD0xJnU9MTAxNjQ1NTQ0JmxpPTE4ODMzODk/index.html)
>> and click on Today's Commentary. The printer-friendly
>> link is on the left-hand column.
>>
>> Copyright (c) 2008 Prison Fellowship
>>
>> THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN
>> FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
>>
>>
>>
>> "BreakPoint" is a daily commentary on news and trends
>> from a Christian perspective. Heard on more than 1000
>> radio outlets nationwide, "BreakPoint" transcripts are
>> also available on the Internet.
>>
>> BreakPoint is the worldview ministry of PFM (formerly
>> Prison Fellowship Ministries): 44180 Riverside Parkway,
>> Lansdowne, VA 20176.
>>
>> Subscribe to BreakPoint
>> (http://msg1svc.net/static/pfm/leadcapture/subscribe.cfm?site=BP)
>> .
>>
>> You are receiving this message as a subscriber to
>> BreakPoint's daily newsletter.
>>
>>
>> Powered by Informz for iMIS
>> http://www.informzforimis.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/george.mcdermith%40gmail.com 




From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Thu Nov 13 20:08:17 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 14:08:17 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Fw: BreakPoint: So Much for Tolerance, 11/13/08
References: <002001c945a8$e6813720$15d59b63@IBMB7D6F383D44>
	<8AEF26276C9D40F8A07359A4F618FFA1@bassclef>
Message-ID: <FBF3138B23FA439896FC70263DF4BFD5@your4dacd0ea75>

I'm reminded of a time when I was much younger and I was going from one 
service to another to sing.  We were late and the driver banged on the door 
of the second church and did a Russian accent thing and said, "This is the 
Gestapo.  Does this church preach the Gospel?"  The people at the church 
laughed and one of the guys said, "I hope you brought us a singer," and 
after I got in the door, the driver left.  But what would the average 
Christian do if people went door to door to see if we were reading our Bible 
and ripped it in half.  This is the same kind of tolerance that we dole out 
here.

Remember in the '70's when that song came out, I think by Gary Paxton:

"If they would arrest you for being a Christian,
Would there be enough evidence for them to convict you?"

Do we all say we have a reason for doing something and a motive for doing 
something, or are we just looking for a way to say we're Christian so we can 
get under some one's skin?


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "tribble" <lauraeaves at yahoo.com>
To: "Everett Gavel" <EverettG at successfuladaptations.com>; "Faith-talk,for 
the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 12:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Fw: BreakPoint: So Much for Tolerance, 11/13/08


> that's weird -- I doubt the 2 young men in the report were really mormon
> missionaries as while the mormons campaign vigorously against same sex
> marriage, they wouldn't have committed a crime (stealing rings and
> ransacking a house). Must have been a front used by 2 guys looking for
> trouble.
> My church is adamantly against same sex unions, but I personally wonder
> about the justification for banning them as the people involved would be
> living a gay lifestyle to begin with and changing the legal status 
> wouldn't
> affect anyone else -- I understand wanting the name to be different: 
> "civil
> union" as opposed to marriage.  My friends at church say they oppose any
> kind of union as that would put them in a contract that would be harder to
> get out of should they change their mindset, even if the contract was not
> deemed a "marriage".
> Is this a can of worms that we don't want to open on this list?
> I have to teach a lesson on marriage this coming sunday so am thinking 
> about
> it in case one of the kids brings it up...
> Take care.
> --le
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Everett Gavel" <everettg at successfuladaptations.com>
> To: <Undisclosed-Recipient:;>
> Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 10:00 AM
> Subject: [Faith-talk] Fw: BreakPoint: So Much for Tolerance, 11/13/08
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "BreakPoint" <prison_fellowship at informz.net>
> Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 10:42 AM
> Subject: BreakPoint: So Much for Tolerance, 11/13/08
>
> ***************************
> BREAKPOINT DAILY TRANSCRIPT
> ***************************
>
> So Much for Tolerance
> The Aftermath of Prop 8
>
> November 13, 2008
>
> The ad ran all over California on Election Day -- and
> surely sets a record for anti-religious bigotry. Two
> clean-cut young men knock at the door of a lesbian
> couple. The men identify themselves as Mormon
> missionaries. "We're here to take away your rights,"
> they announce.
>
> They snatch the women's wedding rings off their fingers
> and ransack their home. When they find the couple's
> marriage license, they rip it in half. "Say no to a
> church taking over your government," the voiceover
> says. "Vote 'no' on Proposition 8."
>
> Despite such vicious attacks, California's Proposition
> 8, which defined marriage as between one man and one
> woman, passed. But the assaults on churches have just
> begun.
>
> Two days after the election, 2,000 homosexual
> protesters surrounded a Mormon temple in Los Angeles
> chanting "Mormon scum." Protesters picketed Rick
> Warren's Saddleback Church, holding signs reading
> "Purpose-Driven Hate." Calvary Chapel in Chino Hills
> was spray painted. Church members' cars have been
> vandalized, and at least two Christians were assaulted.
> Protesters even hurled racial epithets at
> African-Americans because African-Americans voted
> overwhelmingly in favor of traditional marriage.
>
> This is an outrage. What hypocrisy from those who spend
> all of their time preaching tolerance to the rest of
> us!  How dare they threaten and attack political
> opponents? We live a democratic country, not a banana
> republic ruled by thugs.
>
> Clearly, Christians need to redouble their efforts to
> help people understand what marriage is all about. In
> Los Angeles, when protesters gathered at the Cathedral
> of Our Lady of the Angels, they chanted, "What Would
> Jesus say?"
>
> That's a good question, and the Church should not
> hesitate to answer it. What would Jesus say about
> same-sex "marriage?"
>
> To get to the answer, let's first understand the
> meaning and purpose of marriage. In his book THE CLASH
> OF ORTHODOXIES, Princeton philosopher Robert George
> writes that matrimonial law reflects a moral
> judgment -- that marriage is inherently heterosexual,
> monogamous, and permanent -- a union of one man and one
> woman.
>
> This view reflects the biblical and natural law
> understanding that marriage is a two-in-one-flesh
> communion of persons. This communion is consummated by
> sexual acts that are reproductive in nature. They unite
> the spouses as a single procreative unit -- an organic
> unity achieved even by infertile couples. Only a mated
> pair can be a complete organism capable of human
> procreation.
>
> Since homosexual acts have no relationship to
> procreation and cannot unite persons organically, these
> acts cannot be marital -- which means relationships
> integrated around them cannot be marriages.
>
> We've got a winsome case, but we've got to get better
> equipped to explain it to our neighbors. You could
> start by reading THE CLASH OF ORTHODOXIES and other
> material available on our website. And then, start
> discussing these issues in your small groups, Sunday
> school classes, and youth groups.
>
> By protecting traditional marriage, we aren't taking
> away anybody's rights. We are simply upholding the
> framework of society's most basic institution, the loss
> of which would irreparably damage our families and our
> society.
>
>
> Get links to further information on today's topic
> (http://www.breakpoint.org/listingarticle.asp?ID=10520)
>
>
>
> *********************
> ADDITIONAL INFORMATION
> *********************
>
> CENTURIONS
> --------------------------
> Turn the world right side up. Learn more about the 2009
> Centurions Program
> (http://www.breakpoint.org/generic.asp?ID=2748) and how
> you can apply to study Christian worldview with Chuck
> Colson!
>
>
> WILBERFORCE WEEKEND
> --------------------------
> Register now
> (http://www.breakpoint.org/generic.asp?ID=81) for the
> 2009 Wilberforce Weekend Conference, January 16-18 in
> Lansdowne, Va.
>
>
> RECOMMENDED RESOURCE
> --------------------------
> Charles Colson on Politics and the Christian Faith
> (https://www.pfm.org/storeitem.asp?ID=7712) (DVD)
>
>
> ONLINE FEATURE
> ---------------------------
> All Things Examined: "Teaching the Controversy:
> Students Deserve No Less"
> (http://www.breakpoint.org/listingarticle.asp?ID=10479)
> by Regis Nicoll
>
>
> THE POINT
> ---------------------------
> . Seeking Forgiveness, Online
> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/the-apology-pro.html)
> . Obama Reality Check
> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/please-no-obama.html)
> . The Modern Holocaust?
> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/striped-pajamas.html)
> . Don't Forego the Foreclosed
> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/the-point-rad-7.html)
> . Words We Shouldn't of Used
> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/fun-with-words.html)
>
> Listen to Today's Point Radio Broadcast
> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org)
>
>
>
> For printer-friendly version, simply visit
> www.breakpoint.org
> (http://www.informz.net/z/cjUucD9taT01MDc0NzAmcD0xJnU9MTAxNjQ1NTQ0JmxpPTE4ODMzODk/index.html)
> and click on Today's Commentary. The printer-friendly
> link is on the left-hand column.
>
> Copyright (c) 2008 Prison Fellowship
>
> THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN
> FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
>
>
>
> "BreakPoint" is a daily commentary on news and trends
> from a Christian perspective. Heard on more than 1000
> radio outlets nationwide, "BreakPoint" transcripts are
> also available on the Internet.
>
> BreakPoint is the worldview ministry of PFM (formerly
> Prison Fellowship Ministries): 44180 Riverside Parkway,
> Lansdowne, VA 20176.
>
> Subscribe to BreakPoint
> (http://msg1svc.net/static/pfm/leadcapture/subscribe.cfm?site=BP)
> .
>
> You are receiving this message as a subscriber to
> BreakPoint's daily newsletter.
>
>
> Powered by Informz for iMIS
> http://www.informzforimis.com
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
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From everettg at successfuladaptations.com  Thu Nov 13 21:31:57 2008
From: everettg at successfuladaptations.com (Everett Gavel)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 16:31:57 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Fw: BreakPoint: So Much for Tolerance, 11/13/08
References: <002001c945a8$e6813720$15d59b63@IBMB7D6F383D44><4383d01d0811130959v69706825y1446987eb0d9e692@mail.gmail.com>
	<B0F6B23FEACB4BCF8ED1E771D36BC158@your4dacd0ea75>
Message-ID: <002e01c945d7$41c207d0$15d59b63@IBMB7D6F383D44>

Unfortunately, some of you seem to have misunderstood
what was forwarded.  Please read again, and read
slowly, with some attention to the details.  The bit
about the two mormons visiting and forcing themselves
into the home of the "lesbian couple," was a political
*advertisement* against Prop 8.  It was not real.  What
was real, however, and was the reason I forwarded it,
was to show that the hatred and (although minor, thus
far, compared to other countries) persecution of
Christians is here and alive in the USA.

Strive On,
Everett


----- Original Message ----- 
that's weird -- I doubt the 2 young men in the report
were really mormon
missionaries as while the mormons campaign vigorously
against same sex
marriage, they wouldn't have committed a crime
(stealing rings and
ransacking a house). Must have been a front used by 2
guys looking for
trouble.
My church is adamantly against same sex unions, but I
personally wonder
about the justification for banning them as the people
involved would be
living a gay lifestyle to begin with and changing the
legal status wouldn't
affect anyone else -- I understand wanting the name to
be different: "civil
union" as opposed to marriage.  My friends at church
say they oppose any
kind of union as that would put them in a contract that
would be harder to
get out of should they change their mindset, even if
the contract was not
deemed a "marriage".
Is this a can of worms that we don't want to open on
this list?
I have to teach a lesson on marriage this coming sunday
so am thinking about
it in case one of the kids brings it up...
Take care.
--le


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "BreakPoint" <prison_fellowship at informz.net>
Subject: BreakPoint: So Much for Tolerance, 11/13/08

***************************
BREAKPOINT DAILY TRANSCRIPT
***************************

So Much for Tolerance
The Aftermath of Prop 8

November 13, 2008

The ad ran all over California on Election Day -- and
surely sets a record for anti-religious bigotry. Two
clean-cut young men knock at the door of a lesbian
couple. The men identify themselves as Mormon
missionaries. "We're here to take away your rights,"
they announce.

They snatch the women's wedding rings off their fingers
and ransack their home. When they find the couple's
marriage license, they rip it in half. "Say no to a
church taking over your government," the voiceover
says. "Vote 'no' on Proposition 8."

Despite such vicious attacks, California's Proposition
8, which defined marriage as between one man and one
woman, passed. But the assaults on churches have just
begun.

Two days after the election, 2,000 homosexual
protesters surrounded a Mormon temple in Los Angeles
chanting "Mormon scum." Protesters picketed Rick
Warren's Saddleback Church, holding signs reading
"Purpose-Driven Hate." Calvary Chapel in Chino Hills
was spray painted. Church members' cars have been
vandalized, and at least two Christians were assaulted.
Protesters even hurled racial epithets at
African-Americans because African-Americans voted
overwhelmingly in favor of traditional marriage.

This is an outrage. What hypocrisy from those who spend
all of their time preaching tolerance to the rest of
us!  How dare they threaten and attack political
opponents? We live a democratic country, not a banana
republic ruled by thugs.

Clearly, Christians need to redouble their efforts to
help people understand what marriage is all about. In
Los Angeles, when protesters gathered at the Cathedral
of Our Lady of the Angels, they chanted, "What Would
Jesus say?"

That's a good question, and the Church should not
hesitate to answer it. What would Jesus say about
same-sex "marriage?"

To get to the answer, let's first understand the
meaning and purpose of marriage. In his book THE CLASH
OF ORTHODOXIES, Princeton philosopher Robert George
writes that matrimonial law reflects a moral
judgment -- that marriage is inherently heterosexual,
monogamous, and permanent -- a union of one man and one
woman.

This view reflects the biblical and natural law
understanding that marriage is a two-in-one-flesh
communion of persons. This communion is consummated by
sexual acts that are reproductive in nature. They unite
the spouses as a single procreative unit -- an organic
unity achieved even by infertile couples. Only a mated
pair can be a complete organism capable of human
procreation.

Since homosexual acts have no relationship to
procreation and cannot unite persons organically, these
acts cannot be marital -- which means relationships
integrated around them cannot be marriages.

We've got a winsome case, but we've got to get better
equipped to explain it to our neighbors. You could
start by reading THE CLASH OF ORTHODOXIES and other
material available on our website. And then, start
discussing these issues in your small groups, Sunday
school classes, and youth groups.

By protecting traditional marriage, we aren't taking
away anybody's rights. We are simply upholding the
framework of society's most basic institution, the loss
of which would irreparably damage our families and our
society.


Get links to further information on today's topic
(http://www.breakpoint.org/listingarticle.asp?ID=10520)



*********************
ADDITIONAL INFORMATION
*********************

CENTURIONS
--------------------------
Turn the world right side up. Learn more about the 2009
Centurions Program
(http://www.breakpoint.org/generic.asp?ID=2748) and how
you can apply to study Christian worldview with Chuck
Colson!


WILBERFORCE WEEKEND
--------------------------
Register now
(http://www.breakpoint.org/generic.asp?ID=81) for the
2009 Wilberforce Weekend Conference, January 16-18 in
Lansdowne, Va.


RECOMMENDED RESOURCE
--------------------------
Charles Colson on Politics and the Christian Faith
(https://www.pfm.org/storeitem.asp?ID=7712) (DVD)


ONLINE FEATURE
---------------------------
All Things Examined: "Teaching the Controversy:
Students Deserve No Less"
(http://www.breakpoint.org/listingarticle.asp?ID=10479)
by Regis Nicoll


THE POINT
---------------------------
. Seeking Forgiveness, Online
(http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/the-apology-pro.html)
. Obama Reality Check
(http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/please-no-obama.html)
. The Modern Holocaust?
(http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/striped-pajamas.html)
. Don't Forego the Foreclosed
(http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/the-point-rad-7.html)
. Words We Shouldn't of Used
(http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/fun-with-words.html)

Listen to Today's Point Radio Broadcast
(http://thepoint.breakpoint.org)



For printer-friendly version, simply visit
www.breakpoint.org
(http://www.informz.net/z/cjUucD9taT01MDc0NzAmcD0xJnU9MTAxNjQ1NTQ0JmxpPTE4ODMzODk/index.html)
and click on Today's Commentary. The printer-friendly
link is on the left-hand column.

Copyright (c) 2008 Prison Fellowship

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN
FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.



"BreakPoint" is a daily commentary on news and trends
from a Christian perspective. Heard on more than 1000
radio outlets nationwide, "BreakPoint" transcripts are
also available on the Internet.

BreakPoint is the worldview ministry of PFM (formerly
Prison Fellowship Ministries): 44180 Riverside Parkway,
Lansdowne, VA 20176.

Subscribe to BreakPoint
(http://msg1svc.net/static/pfm/leadcapture/subscribe.cfm?site=BP)
.

You are receiving this message as a subscriber to
BreakPoint's daily newsletter.


Powered by Informz for iMIS
http://www.informzforimis.com








From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Thu Nov 13 21:51:11 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 15:51:11 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Another Thought
Message-ID: <84AA41E1A0EA4958A2E33AB534A998BA@your4dacd0ea75>

If some one pounded on my door and said they were there to confiscate my wedding rings because my marriage was unconstitutional, they'd better have a police officer with them.  A Mormon is a Mormon is a Mormon.  A Christian is a Christian is a Christian.  And a robber is a robber is a robber.  I hope they made it to the nearest pawn shop to pick their rings up, even if they had to buy them back again.



"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul," American Humorist Mark Twain

"An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind

"A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV

"Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)

"No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push, 1976.

"With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic," the Late Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation of the Blind.

Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com 





From everettg at successfuladaptations.com  Thu Nov 13 21:56:28 2008
From: everettg at successfuladaptations.com (Everett Gavel)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 16:56:28 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Fw: BreakPoint: So Much for Tolerance, 11/13/08
Message-ID: <000401c945da$af6a34d0$15d59b63@IBMB7D6F383D44>

Unfortunately, some of you seem to have misunderstood
what was forwarded.  Please read again, and read
slowly, with some attention to the details.  The bit
about the two mormons visiting and forcing themselves
into the home of the "lesbian couple," was a political
*advertisement* against Prop 8.  It was not real.  What
was real, however, and was the reason I forwarded it,
was to show that the hatred and (although minor, thus
far, compared to other countries) persecution of
Christians is here and alive in the USA.

Strive On,
Everett


----- Original Message ----- 
that's weird -- I doubt the 2 young men in the report
were really mormon
missionaries as while the mormons campaign vigorously
against same sex
marriage, they wouldn't have committed a crime
(stealing rings and
ransacking a house). Must have been a front used by 2
guys looking for
trouble.
My church is adamantly against same sex unions, but I
personally wonder
about the justification for banning them as the people
involved would be
living a gay lifestyle to begin with and changing the
legal status wouldn't
affect anyone else -- I understand wanting the name to
be different: "civil
union" as opposed to marriage.  My friends at church
say they oppose any
kind of union as that would put them in a contract that
would be harder to
get out of should they change their mindset, even if
the contract was not
deemed a "marriage".
Is this a can of worms that we don't want to open on
this list?
I have to teach a lesson on marriage this coming sunday
so am thinking about
it in case one of the kids brings it up...
Take care.
--le


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "BreakPoint" <prison_fellowship at informz.net>
Subject: BreakPoint: So Much for Tolerance, 11/13/08

***************************
BREAKPOINT DAILY TRANSCRIPT
***************************

So Much for Tolerance
The Aftermath of Prop 8

November 13, 2008

The ad ran all over California on Election Day -- and
surely sets a record for anti-religious bigotry. Two
clean-cut young men knock at the door of a lesbian
couple. The men identify themselves as Mormon
missionaries. "We're here to take away your rights,"
they announce.

They snatch the women's wedding rings off their fingers
and ransack their home. When they find the couple's
marriage license, they rip it in half. "Say no to a
church taking over your government," the voiceover
says. "Vote 'no' on Proposition 8."

Despite such vicious attacks, California's Proposition
8, which defined marriage as between one man and one
woman, passed. But the assaults on churches have just
begun.

Two days after the election, 2,000 homosexual
protesters surrounded a Mormon temple in Los Angeles
chanting "Mormon scum." Protesters picketed Rick
Warren's Saddleback Church, holding signs reading
"Purpose-Driven Hate." Calvary Chapel in Chino Hills
was spray painted. Church members' cars have been
vandalized, and at least two Christians were assaulted.
Protesters even hurled racial epithets at
African-Americans because African-Americans voted
overwhelmingly in favor of traditional marriage.

This is an outrage. What hypocrisy from those who spend
all of their time preaching tolerance to the rest of
us!  How dare they threaten and attack political
opponents? We live a democratic country, not a banana
republic ruled by thugs.

Clearly, Christians need to redouble their efforts to
help people understand what marriage is all about. In
Los Angeles, when protesters gathered at the Cathedral
of Our Lady of the Angels, they chanted, "What Would
Jesus say?"

That's a good question, and the Church should not
hesitate to answer it. What would Jesus say about
same-sex "marriage?"

To get to the answer, let's first understand the
meaning and purpose of marriage. In his book THE CLASH
OF ORTHODOXIES, Princeton philosopher Robert George
writes that matrimonial law reflects a moral
judgment -- that marriage is inherently heterosexual,
monogamous, and permanent -- a union of one man and one
woman.

This view reflects the biblical and natural law
understanding that marriage is a two-in-one-flesh
communion of persons. This communion is consummated by
sexual acts that are reproductive in nature. They unite
the spouses as a single procreative unit -- an organic
unity achieved even by infertile couples. Only a mated
pair can be a complete organism capable of human
procreation.

Since homosexual acts have no relationship to
procreation and cannot unite persons organically, these
acts cannot be marital -- which means relationships
integrated around them cannot be marriages.

We've got a winsome case, but we've got to get better
equipped to explain it to our neighbors. You could
start by reading THE CLASH OF ORTHODOXIES and other
material available on our website. And then, start
discussing these issues in your small groups, Sunday
school classes, and youth groups.

By protecting traditional marriage, we aren't taking
away anybody's rights. We are simply upholding the
framework of society's most basic institution, the loss
of which would irreparably damage our families and our
society.


Get links to further information on today's topic
(http://www.breakpoint.org/listingarticle.asp?ID=10520)



*********************
ADDITIONAL INFORMATION
*********************

CENTURIONS
--------------------------
Turn the world right side up. Learn more about the 2009
Centurions Program
(http://www.breakpoint.org/generic.asp?ID=2748) and how
you can apply to study Christian worldview with Chuck
Colson!


WILBERFORCE WEEKEND
--------------------------
Register now
(http://www.breakpoint.org/generic.asp?ID=81) for the
2009 Wilberforce Weekend Conference, January 16-18 in
Lansdowne, Va.


RECOMMENDED RESOURCE
--------------------------
Charles Colson on Politics and the Christian Faith
(https://www.pfm.org/storeitem.asp?ID=7712) (DVD)


ONLINE FEATURE
---------------------------
All Things Examined: "Teaching the Controversy:
Students Deserve No Less"
(http://www.breakpoint.org/listingarticle.asp?ID=10479)
by Regis Nicoll


THE POINT
---------------------------
. Seeking Forgiveness, Online
(http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/the-apology-pro.html)
. Obama Reality Check
(http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/please-no-obama.html)
. The Modern Holocaust?
(http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/striped-pajamas.html)
. Don't Forego the Foreclosed
(http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/the-point-rad-7.html)
. Words We Shouldn't of Used
(http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/fun-with-words.html)

Listen to Today's Point Radio Broadcast
(http://thepoint.breakpoint.org)



For printer-friendly version, simply visit
www.breakpoint.org
(http://www.informz.net/z/cjUucD9taT01MDc0NzAmcD0xJnU9MTAxNjQ1NTQ0JmxpPTE4ODMzODk/index.html)
and click on Today's Commentary. The printer-friendly
link is on the left-hand column.

Copyright (c) 2008 Prison Fellowship

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN
FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.



"BreakPoint" is a daily commentary on news and trends
from a Christian perspective. Heard on more than 1000
radio outlets nationwide, "BreakPoint" transcripts are
also available on the Internet.

BreakPoint is the worldview ministry of PFM (formerly
Prison Fellowship Ministries): 44180 Riverside Parkway,
Lansdowne, VA 20176.

Subscribe to BreakPoint
(http://msg1svc.net/static/pfm/leadcapture/subscribe.cfm?site=BP)
.

You are receiving this message as a subscriber to
BreakPoint's daily newsletter.


Powered by Informz for iMIS
http://www.informzforimis.com








From george.mcdermith at gmail.com  Thu Nov 13 22:08:42 2008
From: george.mcdermith at gmail.com (George McDermith)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 15:08:42 -0700
Subject: [Faith-talk] Fw: BreakPoint: So Much for Tolerance, 11/13/08
In-Reply-To: <000f01c945be$11a63da0$15d59b63@IBMB7D6F383D44>
References: <002001c945a8$e6813720$15d59b63@IBMB7D6F383D44><8AEF26276C9D40F8A07359A4F618FFA1@bassclef>
	<000f01c945be$11a63da0$15d59b63@IBMB7D6F383D44>
Message-ID: <EE8A6B55B00F425881EE914D3292B0DE@OwnerPC>

    Amen.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Everett Gavel" <everettg at successfuladaptations.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 11:31 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Fw: BreakPoint: So Much for Tolerance, 11/13/08


> Unfortunately, some of you seem to have misunderstood what was forwarded. 
> Please read again, and read slowly, with some attention to the details. 
> The bit about the two mormons visiting and forcing themselves into the 
> home of the "lesbian couple," was a political *advertisement* against Prop 
> 8.  It was not real.  What was real, however, and was the reason I 
> forwarded it, was to show that the hatred and (although minor, thus far, 
> compared to other countries) persecution of Christians is here and alive 
> in the USA.
>
> Strive On,
> Everett
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> that's weird -- I doubt the 2 young men in the report were really mormon
> missionaries as while the mormons campaign vigorously against same sex
> marriage, they wouldn't have committed a crime (stealing rings and
> ransacking a house). Must have been a front used by 2 guys looking for
> trouble.
> My church is adamantly against same sex unions, but I personally wonder
> about the justification for banning them as the people involved would be
> living a gay lifestyle to begin with and changing the legal status 
> wouldn't
> affect anyone else -- I understand wanting the name to be different: 
> "civil
> union" as opposed to marriage.  My friends at church say they oppose any
> kind of union as that would put them in a contract that would be harder to
> get out of should they change their mindset, even if the contract was not
> deemed a "marriage".
> Is this a can of worms that we don't want to open on this list?
> I have to teach a lesson on marriage this coming sunday so am thinking 
> about
> it in case one of the kids brings it up...
> Take care.
> --le
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "BreakPoint" <prison_fellowship at informz.net>
> Subject: BreakPoint: So Much for Tolerance, 11/13/08
>
> ***************************
> BREAKPOINT DAILY TRANSCRIPT
> ***************************
>
> So Much for Tolerance
> The Aftermath of Prop 8
>
> November 13, 2008
>
> The ad ran all over California on Election Day -- and
> surely sets a record for anti-religious bigotry. Two
> clean-cut young men knock at the door of a lesbian
> couple. The men identify themselves as Mormon
> missionaries. "We're here to take away your rights,"
> they announce.
>
> They snatch the women's wedding rings off their fingers
> and ransack their home. When they find the couple's
> marriage license, they rip it in half. "Say no to a
> church taking over your government," the voiceover
> says. "Vote 'no' on Proposition 8."
>
> Despite such vicious attacks, California's Proposition
> 8, which defined marriage as between one man and one
> woman, passed. But the assaults on churches have just
> begun.
>
> Two days after the election, 2,000 homosexual
> protesters surrounded a Mormon temple in Los Angeles
> chanting "Mormon scum." Protesters picketed Rick
> Warren's Saddleback Church, holding signs reading
> "Purpose-Driven Hate." Calvary Chapel in Chino Hills
> was spray painted. Church members' cars have been
> vandalized, and at least two Christians were assaulted.
> Protesters even hurled racial epithets at
> African-Americans because African-Americans voted
> overwhelmingly in favor of traditional marriage.
>
> This is an outrage. What hypocrisy from those who spend
> all of their time preaching tolerance to the rest of
> us!  How dare they threaten and attack political
> opponents? We live a democratic country, not a banana
> republic ruled by thugs.
>
> Clearly, Christians need to redouble their efforts to
> help people understand what marriage is all about. In
> Los Angeles, when protesters gathered at the Cathedral
> of Our Lady of the Angels, they chanted, "What Would
> Jesus say?"
>
> That's a good question, and the Church should not
> hesitate to answer it. What would Jesus say about
> same-sex "marriage?"
>
> To get to the answer, let's first understand the
> meaning and purpose of marriage. In his book THE CLASH
> OF ORTHODOXIES, Princeton philosopher Robert George
> writes that matrimonial law reflects a moral
> judgment -- that marriage is inherently heterosexual,
> monogamous, and permanent -- a union of one man and one
> woman.
>
> This view reflects the biblical and natural law
> understanding that marriage is a two-in-one-flesh
> communion of persons. This communion is consummated by
> sexual acts that are reproductive in nature. They unite
> the spouses as a single procreative unit -- an organic
> unity achieved even by infertile couples. Only a mated
> pair can be a complete organism capable of human
> procreation.
>
> Since homosexual acts have no relationship to
> procreation and cannot unite persons organically, these
> acts cannot be marital -- which means relationships
> integrated around them cannot be marriages.
>
> We've got a winsome case, but we've got to get better
> equipped to explain it to our neighbors. You could
> start by reading THE CLASH OF ORTHODOXIES and other
> material available on our website. And then, start
> discussing these issues in your small groups, Sunday
> school classes, and youth groups.
>
> By protecting traditional marriage, we aren't taking
> away anybody's rights. We are simply upholding the
> framework of society's most basic institution, the loss
> of which would irreparably damage our families and our
> society.
>
>
> Get links to further information on today's topic
> (http://www.breakpoint.org/listingarticle.asp?ID=10520)
>
>
>
> *********************
> ADDITIONAL INFORMATION
> *********************
>
> CENTURIONS
> --------------------------
> Turn the world right side up. Learn more about the 2009
> Centurions Program
> (http://www.breakpoint.org/generic.asp?ID=2748) and how
> you can apply to study Christian worldview with Chuck
> Colson!
>
>
> WILBERFORCE WEEKEND
> --------------------------
> Register now
> (http://www.breakpoint.org/generic.asp?ID=81) for the
> 2009 Wilberforce Weekend Conference, January 16-18 in
> Lansdowne, Va.
>
>
> RECOMMENDED RESOURCE
> --------------------------
> Charles Colson on Politics and the Christian Faith
> (https://www.pfm.org/storeitem.asp?ID=7712) (DVD)
>
>
> ONLINE FEATURE
> ---------------------------
> All Things Examined: "Teaching the Controversy:
> Students Deserve No Less"
> (http://www.breakpoint.org/listingarticle.asp?ID=10479)
> by Regis Nicoll
>
>
> THE POINT
> ---------------------------
> . Seeking Forgiveness, Online
> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/the-apology-pro.html)
> . Obama Reality Check
> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/please-no-obama.html)
> . The Modern Holocaust?
> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/striped-pajamas.html)
> . Don't Forego the Foreclosed
> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/the-point-rad-7.html)
> . Words We Shouldn't of Used
> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/fun-with-words.html)
>
> Listen to Today's Point Radio Broadcast
> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org)
>
>
>
> For printer-friendly version, simply visit
> www.breakpoint.org
> (http://www.informz.net/z/cjUucD9taT01MDc0NzAmcD0xJnU9MTAxNjQ1NTQ0JmxpPTE4ODMzODk/index.html)
> and click on Today's Commentary. The printer-friendly
> link is on the left-hand column.
>
> Copyright (c) 2008 Prison Fellowship
>
> THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN
> FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
>
>
>
> "BreakPoint" is a daily commentary on news and trends
> from a Christian perspective. Heard on more than 1000
> radio outlets nationwide, "BreakPoint" transcripts are
> also available on the Internet.
>
> BreakPoint is the worldview ministry of PFM (formerly
> Prison Fellowship Ministries): 44180 Riverside Parkway,
> Lansdowne, VA 20176.
>
> Subscribe to BreakPoint
> (http://msg1svc.net/static/pfm/leadcapture/subscribe.cfm?site=BP)
> .
>
> You are receiving this message as a subscriber to
> BreakPoint's daily newsletter.
>
>
> Powered by Informz for iMIS
> http://www.informzforimis.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/george.mcdermith%40gmail.com 




From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Thu Nov 13 22:35:59 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 17:35:59 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Fw: BreakPoint: So Much for Tolerance, 11/13/08
In-Reply-To: <000401c945da$af6a34d0$15d59b63@IBMB7D6F383D44>
References: <000401c945da$af6a34d0$15d59b63@IBMB7D6F383D44>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811131435i3ffa9768q427107d3220a1c77@mail.gmail.com>

Julie, it's not lawful for Christians to confiscate wedding rings and
marriage licenses.  I can see it happening to me because of my
blindness and if I married anybody.  With homosexuals, there is
persecution of them in the Christian crowd, and the confiscation of a
marriage license and a wedding ring would not be enough to stop the
couple's love for each other.
Beth

On 11/13/08, Everett Gavel <everettg at successfuladaptations.com> wrote:
> Unfortunately, some of you seem to have misunderstood
> what was forwarded.  Please read again, and read
> slowly, with some attention to the details.  The bit
> about the two mormons visiting and forcing themselves
> into the home of the "lesbian couple," was a political
> *advertisement* against Prop 8.  It was not real.  What
> was real, however, and was the reason I forwarded it,
> was to show that the hatred and (although minor, thus
> far, compared to other countries) persecution of
> Christians is here and alive in the USA.
>
> Strive On,
> Everett
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> that's weird -- I doubt the 2 young men in the report
> were really mormon
> missionaries as while the mormons campaign vigorously
> against same sex
> marriage, they wouldn't have committed a crime
> (stealing rings and
> ransacking a house). Must have been a front used by 2
> guys looking for
> trouble.
> My church is adamantly against same sex unions, but I
> personally wonder
> about the justification for banning them as the people
> involved would be
> living a gay lifestyle to begin with and changing the
> legal status wouldn't
> affect anyone else -- I understand wanting the name to
> be different: "civil
> union" as opposed to marriage.  My friends at church
> say they oppose any
> kind of union as that would put them in a contract that
> would be harder to
> get out of should they change their mindset, even if
> the contract was not
> deemed a "marriage".
> Is this a can of worms that we don't want to open on
> this list?
> I have to teach a lesson on marriage this coming sunday
> so am thinking about
> it in case one of the kids brings it up...
> Take care.
> --le
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "BreakPoint" <prison_fellowship at informz.net>
> Subject: BreakPoint: So Much for Tolerance, 11/13/08
>
> ***************************
> BREAKPOINT DAILY TRANSCRIPT
> ***************************
>
> So Much for Tolerance
> The Aftermath of Prop 8
>
> November 13, 2008
>
> The ad ran all over California on Election Day -- and
> surely sets a record for anti-religious bigotry. Two
> clean-cut young men knock at the door of a lesbian
> couple. The men identify themselves as Mormon
> missionaries. "We're here to take away your rights,"
> they announce.
>
> They snatch the women's wedding rings off their fingers
> and ransack their home. When they find the couple's
> marriage license, they rip it in half. "Say no to a
> church taking over your government," the voiceover
> says. "Vote 'no' on Proposition 8."
>
> Despite such vicious attacks, California's Proposition
> 8, which defined marriage as between one man and one
> woman, passed. But the assaults on churches have just
> begun.
>
> Two days after the election, 2,000 homosexual
> protesters surrounded a Mormon temple in Los Angeles
> chanting "Mormon scum." Protesters picketed Rick
> Warren's Saddleback Church, holding signs reading
> "Purpose-Driven Hate." Calvary Chapel in Chino Hills
> was spray painted. Church members' cars have been
> vandalized, and at least two Christians were assaulted.
> Protesters even hurled racial epithets at
> African-Americans because African-Americans voted
> overwhelmingly in favor of traditional marriage.
>
> This is an outrage. What hypocrisy from those who spend
> all of their time preaching tolerance to the rest of
> us!  How dare they threaten and attack political
> opponents? We live a democratic country, not a banana
> republic ruled by thugs.
>
> Clearly, Christians need to redouble their efforts to
> help people understand what marriage is all about. In
> Los Angeles, when protesters gathered at the Cathedral
> of Our Lady of the Angels, they chanted, "What Would
> Jesus say?"
>
> That's a good question, and the Church should not
> hesitate to answer it. What would Jesus say about
> same-sex "marriage?"
>
> To get to the answer, let's first understand the
> meaning and purpose of marriage. In his book THE CLASH
> OF ORTHODOXIES, Princeton philosopher Robert George
> writes that matrimonial law reflects a moral
> judgment -- that marriage is inherently heterosexual,
> monogamous, and permanent -- a union of one man and one
> woman.
>
> This view reflects the biblical and natural law
> understanding that marriage is a two-in-one-flesh
> communion of persons. This communion is consummated by
> sexual acts that are reproductive in nature. They unite
> the spouses as a single procreative unit -- an organic
> unity achieved even by infertile couples. Only a mated
> pair can be a complete organism capable of human
> procreation.
>
> Since homosexual acts have no relationship to
> procreation and cannot unite persons organically, these
> acts cannot be marital -- which means relationships
> integrated around them cannot be marriages.
>
> We've got a winsome case, but we've got to get better
> equipped to explain it to our neighbors. You could
> start by reading THE CLASH OF ORTHODOXIES and other
> material available on our website. And then, start
> discussing these issues in your small groups, Sunday
> school classes, and youth groups.
>
> By protecting traditional marriage, we aren't taking
> away anybody's rights. We are simply upholding the
> framework of society's most basic institution, the loss
> of which would irreparably damage our families and our
> society.
>
>
> Get links to further information on today's topic
> (http://www.breakpoint.org/listingarticle.asp?ID=10520)
>
>
>
> *********************
> ADDITIONAL INFORMATION
> *********************
>
> CENTURIONS
> --------------------------
> Turn the world right side up. Learn more about the 2009
> Centurions Program
> (http://www.breakpoint.org/generic.asp?ID=2748) and how
> you can apply to study Christian worldview with Chuck
> Colson!
>
>
> WILBERFORCE WEEKEND
> --------------------------
> Register now
> (http://www.breakpoint.org/generic.asp?ID=81) for the
> 2009 Wilberforce Weekend Conference, January 16-18 in
> Lansdowne, Va.
>
>
> RECOMMENDED RESOURCE
> --------------------------
> Charles Colson on Politics and the Christian Faith
> (https://www.pfm.org/storeitem.asp?ID=7712) (DVD)
>
>
> ONLINE FEATURE
> ---------------------------
> All Things Examined: "Teaching the Controversy:
> Students Deserve No Less"
> (http://www.breakpoint.org/listingarticle.asp?ID=10479)
> by Regis Nicoll
>
>
> THE POINT
> ---------------------------
> . Seeking Forgiveness, Online
> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/the-apology-pro.html)
> . Obama Reality Check
> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/please-no-obama.html)
> . The Modern Holocaust?
> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/striped-pajamas.html)
> . Don't Forego the Foreclosed
> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/the-point-rad-7.html)
> . Words We Shouldn't of Used
> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/fun-with-words.html)
>
> Listen to Today's Point Radio Broadcast
> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org)
>
>
>
> For printer-friendly version, simply visit
> www.breakpoint.org
> (http://www.informz.net/z/cjUucD9taT01MDc0NzAmcD0xJnU9MTAxNjQ1NTQ0JmxpPTE4ODMzODk/index.html)
> and click on Today's Commentary. The printer-friendly
> link is on the left-hand column.
>
> Copyright (c) 2008 Prison Fellowship
>
> THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN
> FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
>
>
>
> "BreakPoint" is a daily commentary on news and trends
> from a Christian perspective. Heard on more than 1000
> radio outlets nationwide, "BreakPoint" transcripts are
> also available on the Internet.
>
> BreakPoint is the worldview ministry of PFM (formerly
> Prison Fellowship Ministries): 44180 Riverside Parkway,
> Lansdowne, VA 20176.
>
> Subscribe to BreakPoint
> (http://msg1svc.net/static/pfm/leadcapture/subscribe.cfm?site=BP)
> .
>
> You are receiving this message as a subscriber to
> BreakPoint's daily newsletter.
>
>
> Powered by Informz for iMIS
> http://www.informzforimis.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>



From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Thu Nov 13 22:38:05 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 17:38:05 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Another Thought
In-Reply-To: <84AA41E1A0EA4958A2E33AB534A998BA@your4dacd0ea75>
References: <84AA41E1A0EA4958A2E33AB534A998BA@your4dacd0ea75>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811131438s31d1796hd34703b81b498648@mail.gmail.com>

They might have, but as Everet said in a previous e-mail, the story
was just a political *ad* against prop 8.  Now, I hope they are going
to ban prop 8 in the Obama camp because it's wrong, and we need to be
considerate of others, and if a Christian wants to rob somebody of a
wedding ring and a iece of paper, let 'em do it.  If the couple loves
each other, they can love each other all they want.
Beth

On 11/13/08, Julie C. Vogt <jcvogt at pressenter.com> wrote:
> If some one pounded on my door and said they were there to confiscate my
> wedding rings because my marriage was unconstitutional, they'd better have a
> police officer with them.  A Mormon is a Mormon is a Mormon.  A Christian is
> a Christian is a Christian.  And a robber is a robber is a robber.  I hope
> they made it to the nearest pawn shop to pick their rings up, even if they
> had to buy them back again.
>
>
>
> "Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human
> soul," American Humorist Mark Twain
>
> "An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth Jernigan,
> Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind
>
> "A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their
> contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
>
> "Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>
> "No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push, 1976.
>
> "With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can be
> reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic," the Late Dr.
> Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation of the Blind.
>
> Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>



From everettg at successfuladaptations.com  Thu Nov 13 22:48:35 2008
From: everettg at successfuladaptations.com (Everett Gavel)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 17:48:35 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Another Thought
References: <84AA41E1A0EA4958A2E33AB534A998BA@your4dacd0ea75>
Message-ID: <002b01c945e1$f694e100$15d59b63@IBMB7D6F383D44>

Hello All,

Again, please understand, the thing about the supposed 
mormons and supposed lesbian couple was a political ad. 
It simply did not happen.  Some of you have misread the 
piece below.  Anyway, why are we wasting time on that 
and ignoring what really *did* happen, that was 
mentioned in that bit of news I forwarded?  The fact 
that Christians in the USA are losing any rights 
they're supposed to have, due to the liars that spout 
off about being tolerant, truly meaning to only be 
tolerant of gays and lesbians - not of others around 
those gays and lesbians?  As I already asked, please, 
read the piece again, and pay attention to the sad, 
amazing details of what's going on right now today, in 
this country, regarding the persecution of Christians.

Strive On,
Everett


----- Original Message ----- 
> If some one pounded on my door and said they were 
> there to confiscate my wedding rings because my 
> marriage was unconstitutional, they'd better have a 
> police officer with them.  A Mormon is a Mormon is a 
> Mormon.  A Christian is a Christian is a Christian. 
> And a robber is a robber is a robber.  I hope they 
> made it to the nearest pawn shop to pick their rings 
> up, even if they had to buy them back again.
>
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "BreakPoint" <prison_fellowship at informz.net>
Subject: BreakPoint: So Much for Tolerance, 11/13/08

***************************
BREAKPOINT DAILY TRANSCRIPT
***************************

So Much for Tolerance
The Aftermath of Prop 8

November 13, 2008

The ad ran all over California on Election Day -- and
surely sets a record for anti-religious bigotry. Two
clean-cut young men knock at the door of a lesbian
couple. The men identify themselves as Mormon
missionaries. "We're here to take away your rights,"
they announce.

They snatch the women's wedding rings off their fingers
and ransack their home. When they find the couple's
marriage license, they rip it in half. "Say no to a
church taking over your government," the voiceover
says. "Vote 'no' on Proposition 8."

Despite such vicious attacks, California's Proposition
8, which defined marriage as between one man and one
woman, passed. But the assaults on churches have just
begun.

Two days after the election, 2,000 homosexual
protesters surrounded a Mormon temple in Los Angeles
chanting "Mormon scum." Protesters picketed Rick
Warren's Saddleback Church, holding signs reading
"Purpose-Driven Hate." Calvary Chapel in Chino Hills
was spray painted. Church members' cars have been
vandalized, and at least two Christians were assaulted.
Protesters even hurled racial epithets at
African-Americans because African-Americans voted
overwhelmingly in favor of traditional marriage.

This is an outrage. What hypocrisy from those who spend
all of their time preaching tolerance to the rest of
us!  How dare they threaten and attack political
opponents? We live a democratic country, not a banana
republic ruled by thugs.

Clearly, Christians need to redouble their efforts to
help people understand what marriage is all about. In
Los Angeles, when protesters gathered at the Cathedral
of Our Lady of the Angels, they chanted, "What Would
Jesus say?"

That's a good question, and the Church should not
hesitate to answer it. What would Jesus say about
same-sex "marriage?"

To get to the answer, let's first understand the
meaning and purpose of marriage. In his book THE CLASH
OF ORTHODOXIES, Princeton philosopher Robert George
writes that matrimonial law reflects a moral
judgment -- that marriage is inherently heterosexual,
monogamous, and permanent -- a union of one man and one
woman.

This view reflects the biblical and natural law
understanding that marriage is a two-in-one-flesh
communion of persons. This communion is consummated by
sexual acts that are reproductive in nature. They unite
the spouses as a single procreative unit -- an organic
unity achieved even by infertile couples. Only a mated
pair can be a complete organism capable of human
procreation.

Since homosexual acts have no relationship to
procreation and cannot unite persons organically, these
acts cannot be marital -- which means relationships
integrated around them cannot be marriages.

We've got a winsome case, but we've got to get better
equipped to explain it to our neighbors. You could
start by reading THE CLASH OF ORTHODOXIES and other
material available on our website. And then, start
discussing these issues in your small groups, Sunday
school classes, and youth groups.

By protecting traditional marriage, we aren't taking
away anybody's rights. We are simply upholding the
framework of society's most basic institution, the loss
of which would irreparably damage our families and our
society.


Get links to further information on today's topic
(http://www.breakpoint.org/listingarticle.asp?ID=10520)



*********************
ADDITIONAL INFORMATION
*********************

CENTURIONS
--------------------------
Turn the world right side up. Learn more about the 2009
Centurions Program
(http://www.breakpoint.org/generic.asp?ID=2748) and how
you can apply to study Christian worldview with Chuck
Colson!


WILBERFORCE WEEKEND
--------------------------
Register now
(http://www.breakpoint.org/generic.asp?ID=81) for the
2009 Wilberforce Weekend Conference, January 16-18 in
Lansdowne, Va.


RECOMMENDED RESOURCE
--------------------------
Charles Colson on Politics and the Christian Faith
(https://www.pfm.org/storeitem.asp?ID=7712) (DVD)


ONLINE FEATURE
---------------------------
All Things Examined: "Teaching the Controversy:
Students Deserve No Less"
(http://www.breakpoint.org/listingarticle.asp?ID=10479)
by Regis Nicoll


THE POINT
---------------------------
. Seeking Forgiveness, Online
(http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/the-apology-pro.html)
. Obama Reality Check
(http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/please-no-obama.html)
. The Modern Holocaust?
(http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/striped-pajamas.html)
. Don't Forego the Foreclosed
(http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/the-point-rad-7.html)
. Words We Shouldn't of Used
(http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/fun-with-words.html)

Listen to Today's Point Radio Broadcast
(http://thepoint.breakpoint.org)



For printer-friendly version, simply visit
www.breakpoint.org
(http://www.informz.net/z/cjUucD9taT01MDc0NzAmcD0xJnU9MTAxNjQ1NTQ0JmxpPTE4ODMzODk/index.html)
and click on Today's Commentary. The printer-friendly
link is on the left-hand column.

Copyright (c) 2008 Prison Fellowship

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN
FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.



"BreakPoint" is a daily commentary on news and trends
from a Christian perspective. Heard on more than 1000
radio outlets nationwide, "BreakPoint" transcripts are
also available on the Internet.

BreakPoint is the worldview ministry of PFM (formerly
Prison Fellowship Ministries): 44180 Riverside Parkway,
Lansdowne, VA 20176.

Subscribe to BreakPoint
(http://msg1svc.net/static/pfm/leadcapture/subscribe.cfm?site=BP)
.

You are receiving this message as a subscriber to
BreakPoint's daily newsletter.


Powered by Informz for iMIS
http://www.informzforimis.com








From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Thu Nov 13 22:53:01 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 16:53:01 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Fw: BreakPoint: So Much for Tolerance, 11/13/08
References: <002001c945a8$e6813720$15d59b63@IBMB7D6F383D44><8AEF26276C9D40F8A07359A4F618FFA1@bassclef>
	<000f01c945be$11a63da0$15d59b63@IBMB7D6F383D44>
Message-ID: <0FB22D56F00C4BF981A60AAE89A5A7CF@your4dacd0ea75>

Hey, well, I guess I'm to street-smart from living 12 years in the ghetto.

Once I heard an evangelist tell that he had been to the Ukraine, I believe 
it was.  The church he was at there said they prayed for America every day. 
When he pointed out all of America's blessings, he asked why they prayed for 
us.  Their answer was:  "So that America doesn't bow down to the god of 
materialism."


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Everett Gavel" <everettg at successfuladaptations.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 12:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Fw: BreakPoint: So Much for Tolerance, 11/13/08


> Unfortunately, some of you seem to have misunderstood
> what was forwarded.  Please read again, and read
> slowly, with some attention to the details.  The bit
> about the two mormons visiting and forcing themselves
> into the home of the "lesbian couple," was a political
> *advertisement* against Prop 8.  It was not real.  What
> was real, however, and was the reason I forwarded it,
> was to show that the hatred and (although minor, thus
> far, compared to other countries) persecution of
> Christians is here and alive in the USA.
>
> Strive On,
> Everett
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> that's weird -- I doubt the 2 young men in the report
> were really mormon
> missionaries as while the mormons campaign vigorously
> against same sex
> marriage, they wouldn't have committed a crime
> (stealing rings and
> ransacking a house). Must have been a front used by 2
> guys looking for
> trouble.
> My church is adamantly against same sex unions, but I
> personally wonder
> about the justification for banning them as the people
> involved would be
> living a gay lifestyle to begin with and changing the
> legal status wouldn't
> affect anyone else -- I understand wanting the name to
> be different: "civil
> union" as opposed to marriage.  My friends at church
> say they oppose any
> kind of union as that would put them in a contract that
> would be harder to
> get out of should they change their mindset, even if
> the contract was not
> deemed a "marriage".
> Is this a can of worms that we don't want to open on
> this list?
> I have to teach a lesson on marriage this coming sunday
> so am thinking about
> it in case one of the kids brings it up...
> Take care.
> --le
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "BreakPoint" <prison_fellowship at informz.net>
> Subject: BreakPoint: So Much for Tolerance, 11/13/08
>
> ***************************
> BREAKPOINT DAILY TRANSCRIPT
> ***************************
>
> So Much for Tolerance
> The Aftermath of Prop 8
>
> November 13, 2008
>
> The ad ran all over California on Election Day -- and
> surely sets a record for anti-religious bigotry. Two
> clean-cut young men knock at the door of a lesbian
> couple. The men identify themselves as Mormon
> missionaries. "We're here to take away your rights,"
> they announce.
>
> They snatch the women's wedding rings off their fingers
> and ransack their home. When they find the couple's
> marriage license, they rip it in half. "Say no to a
> church taking over your government," the voiceover
> says. "Vote 'no' on Proposition 8."
>
> Despite such vicious attacks, California's Proposition
> 8, which defined marriage as between one man and one
> woman, passed. But the assaults on churches have just
> begun.
>
> Two days after the election, 2,000 homosexual
> protesters surrounded a Mormon temple in Los Angeles
> chanting "Mormon scum." Protesters picketed Rick
> Warren's Saddleback Church, holding signs reading
> "Purpose-Driven Hate." Calvary Chapel in Chino Hills
> was spray painted. Church members' cars have been
> vandalized, and at least two Christians were assaulted.
> Protesters even hurled racial epithets at
> African-Americans because African-Americans voted
> overwhelmingly in favor of traditional marriage.
>
> This is an outrage. What hypocrisy from those who spend
> all of their time preaching tolerance to the rest of
> us!  How dare they threaten and attack political
> opponents? We live a democratic country, not a banana
> republic ruled by thugs.
>
> Clearly, Christians need to redouble their efforts to
> help people understand what marriage is all about. In
> Los Angeles, when protesters gathered at the Cathedral
> of Our Lady of the Angels, they chanted, "What Would
> Jesus say?"
>
> That's a good question, and the Church should not
> hesitate to answer it. What would Jesus say about
> same-sex "marriage?"
>
> To get to the answer, let's first understand the
> meaning and purpose of marriage. In his book THE CLASH
> OF ORTHODOXIES, Princeton philosopher Robert George
> writes that matrimonial law reflects a moral
> judgment -- that marriage is inherently heterosexual,
> monogamous, and permanent -- a union of one man and one
> woman.
>
> This view reflects the biblical and natural law
> understanding that marriage is a two-in-one-flesh
> communion of persons. This communion is consummated by
> sexual acts that are reproductive in nature. They unite
> the spouses as a single procreative unit -- an organic
> unity achieved even by infertile couples. Only a mated
> pair can be a complete organism capable of human
> procreation.
>
> Since homosexual acts have no relationship to
> procreation and cannot unite persons organically, these
> acts cannot be marital -- which means relationships
> integrated around them cannot be marriages.
>
> We've got a winsome case, but we've got to get better
> equipped to explain it to our neighbors. You could
> start by reading THE CLASH OF ORTHODOXIES and other
> material available on our website. And then, start
> discussing these issues in your small groups, Sunday
> school classes, and youth groups.
>
> By protecting traditional marriage, we aren't taking
> away anybody's rights. We are simply upholding the
> framework of society's most basic institution, the loss
> of which would irreparably damage our families and our
> society.
>
>
> Get links to further information on today's topic
> (http://www.breakpoint.org/listingarticle.asp?ID=10520)
>
>
>
> *********************
> ADDITIONAL INFORMATION
> *********************
>
> CENTURIONS
> --------------------------
> Turn the world right side up. Learn more about the 2009
> Centurions Program
> (http://www.breakpoint.org/generic.asp?ID=2748) and how
> you can apply to study Christian worldview with Chuck
> Colson!
>
>
> WILBERFORCE WEEKEND
> --------------------------
> Register now
> (http://www.breakpoint.org/generic.asp?ID=81) for the
> 2009 Wilberforce Weekend Conference, January 16-18 in
> Lansdowne, Va.
>
>
> RECOMMENDED RESOURCE
> --------------------------
> Charles Colson on Politics and the Christian Faith
> (https://www.pfm.org/storeitem.asp?ID=7712) (DVD)
>
>
> ONLINE FEATURE
> ---------------------------
> All Things Examined: "Teaching the Controversy:
> Students Deserve No Less"
> (http://www.breakpoint.org/listingarticle.asp?ID=10479)
> by Regis Nicoll
>
>
> THE POINT
> ---------------------------
> . Seeking Forgiveness, Online
> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/the-apology-pro.html)
> . Obama Reality Check
> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/please-no-obama.html)
> . The Modern Holocaust?
> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/striped-pajamas.html)
> . Don't Forego the Foreclosed
> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/the-point-rad-7.html)
> . Words We Shouldn't of Used
> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/fun-with-words.html)
>
> Listen to Today's Point Radio Broadcast
> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org)
>
>
>
> For printer-friendly version, simply visit
> www.breakpoint.org
> (http://www.informz.net/z/cjUucD9taT01MDc0NzAmcD0xJnU9MTAxNjQ1NTQ0JmxpPTE4ODMzODk/index.html)
> and click on Today's Commentary. The printer-friendly
> link is on the left-hand column.
>
> Copyright (c) 2008 Prison Fellowship
>
> THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN
> FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
>
>
>
> "BreakPoint" is a daily commentary on news and trends
> from a Christian perspective. Heard on more than 1000
> radio outlets nationwide, "BreakPoint" transcripts are
> also available on the Internet.
>
> BreakPoint is the worldview ministry of PFM (formerly
> Prison Fellowship Ministries): 44180 Riverside Parkway,
> Lansdowne, VA 20176.
>
> Subscribe to BreakPoint
> (http://msg1svc.net/static/pfm/leadcapture/subscribe.cfm?site=BP)
> .
>
> You are receiving this message as a subscriber to
> BreakPoint's daily newsletter.
>
>
> Powered by Informz for iMIS
> http://www.informzforimis.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
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>


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9:12 AM




From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Thu Nov 13 23:31:07 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 17:31:07 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Another Thought
References: <84AA41E1A0EA4958A2E33AB534A998BA@your4dacd0ea75>
	<4383d01d0811131438s31d1796hd34703b81b498648@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B776B3998E734C199E743625BF1BDFD1@Alan>

Beth,
They cannot ban it.  It was a proposition passed by California voters. It is now the law in that state.

 
+-+-+-

   There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. 
 1 Samuel 2:2
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 4:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Another Thought


> They might have, but as Everet said in a previous e-mail, the story
> was just a political *ad* against prop 8.  Now, I hope they are going
> to ban prop 8 in the Obama camp because it's wrong, and we need to be
> considerate of others, and if a Christian wants to rob somebody of a
> wedding ring and a iece of paper, let 'em do it.  If the couple loves
> each other, they can love each other all they want.
> Beth
> 
> On 11/13/08, Julie C. Vogt <jcvogt at pressenter.com> wrote:
>> If some one pounded on my door and said they were there to confiscate my
>> wedding rings because my marriage was unconstitutional, they'd better have a
>> police officer with them.  A Mormon is a Mormon is a Mormon.  A Christian is
>> a Christian is a Christian.  And a robber is a robber is a robber.  I hope
>> they made it to the nearest pawn shop to pick their rings up, even if they
>> had to buy them back again.
>>
>>
>>
>> "Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human
>> soul," American Humorist Mark Twain
>>
>> "An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth Jernigan,
>> Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind
>>
>> "A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their
>> contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
>>
>> "Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>>
>> "No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push, 1976.
>>
>> "With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can be
>> reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic," the Late Dr.
>> Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation of the Blind.
>>
>> Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com


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From everettg at successfuladaptations.com  Thu Nov 13 23:35:11 2008
From: everettg at successfuladaptations.com (Everett Gavel)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 18:35:11 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Fw: BreakPoint: So Much for Tolerance, 11/13/08
References: <002001c945a8$e6813720$15d59b63@IBMB7D6F383D44><8AEF26276C9D40F8A07359A4F618FFA1@bassclef>
	<000f01c945be$11a63da0$15d59b63@IBMB7D6F383D44>
	<0FB22D56F00C4BF981A60AAE89A5A7CF@your4dacd0ea75>
Message-ID: <002a01c945e8$78ba3c10$15d59b63@IBMB7D6F383D44>

Hi Julie, and all,

Julie, honestly, I'm not sure if you're saying the 
thing about being street-smart, as a positive or a 
negative.  What I do know though, is that street 
smarts, street "wisdom," has got nothing on God's 
Wisdom.

And if anyone would rather have God's wisdom rather 
than any street 'smarts' they may already have, God 
tells us in His Word that we can specifically pray for 
God's wisdom.  We can also pray specifically for the 
strengthening of our faith - in case anyone's 
interested.  "Ask and Ye Shall Recieve," and all that, 
y'know?  ;-)


Strive On--and God Bless Your Efforts,
Everett
"May those who hope in you not be disgraced because of 
me, O Lord, the Lord almighty; may those who seek you 
not be put to shame because of me, O God of Isreal."
(Psalm 69: 6)


----- Original Message ----- 

> Hey, well, I guess I'm to street-smart from living 12 
> years in the ghetto.
>




From mentink at frontiernet.net  Thu Nov 13 23:42:37 2008
From: mentink at frontiernet.net (Linda Mentink)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 17:42:37 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Tolerance
Message-ID: <20081113234239.E4799AC9F9@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>

Hi all,

I've been listening on the internet the last couple days to the 
Liberty Council radio broadcast.  I urge you all to listen to 
Tuesday's, I think it was, on the current culture.  This is not 
advertising; this stuff is real, and out there.  Sit up and take 
notice!  the website is:

<http://www.lc.org>www.lc.org

  Thanks, Wesley, for this information.

Blessings,

Linda




From sslucki at chariot.net.au  Fri Nov 14 00:06:12 2008
From: sslucki at chariot.net.au (Stefan Slucki)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 10:36:12 +1030
Subject: [Faith-talk] same-sex marriage/civil union - the problems!
References: <002001c945a8$e6813720$15d59b63@IBMB7D6F383D44>
	<8AEF26276C9D40F8A07359A4F618FFA1@bassclef>
Message-ID: <706DF55F62E948FE8EFF69714F61989C@stefan706c912c>

Hi Laura and list,

Well, Laura, it does seem that commenting on this most relevant topic on our 
list does open that "can of worms" you refer to.

Now worms are good for fertilizing the garden so I hope what I say, below, 
is useful to all.

Obviously, it's a big subject as the traffic on list has shown in the past 
ten days.

Now I think consensus has been reached on the list as to the desirable 
individual Christian's attitude and approach to individual 
homosexuals/domestic partnership members.

Why resist granting either "civil union" or "marriage" status to these folk?

Firstly, as Chuck Colson argues, heterosexual marriage is and always should 
be held up as the norm in society, with Christian marriage as the ideal.  To 
use the word "marriage" in relation to a same-sex partnership is socially 
confusing, inconsistent and suicidal to such convictions.

Secondly, heterosexual marriage has a "civil union" element in that the 
paperwork associated with marriage is State-based not church-based.

As a Minister of the Gospel, I have to prepare couples according (in my 
case) to the directions of the Marriage Act of Australia 1961 and return 
certain papers to the appropriate government registry of births, deaths and 
marriages.  Of course!  I stress to couples that my role is to also prepare 
them from a Christian viewpoint.

The point I'm making is that even if a couple have a civil ceremony, they 
are still lawfully and actually married in God's Sight even though they 
didn't actively seek His Blessing on their union -- for whatever reason.

Giving homosexuals this right is a hair's-breath away from full marriage and 
not to be contemplated.

Thirdly, what practical consequences can it have in society to grant them 
such entitlements?

 ** The greater lying illusion that their chosen lifestyle is "normal" equal 
in value to heterosexuality -- for knowledgeable Christians to affirm this 
is to violently offend their own and these folk's conscience!

 ** To strengthen their argument in favour of adoption, 
artificial-insemination thus potentially paving the way for greater 
paedophilia and abuse of children.

 ** The general departure of our Christian-inheritance society to an 
anything-goes if-ya-into-bestiality-so-what approach to society which is 
beginning to surface in the so-called civilised world.
U'huh, intimacy with animals or -- as they would say -- some other animals.

Finally, so should we consider ANY recognition of domestic partnerships 
which aren't either marriage or "common law [de facto]" marriages?  What 
about superannuation and similar entitlements for those who've been together 
for years?

Christians do disagree about such issues.  Personally, I can see no reason 
why what are known as co-dependent relationships cannot be registered with 
the State i.e. no marriage-mimicking ceremony, just the recognition that two 
people consider each other their 'significant other'.  Such recognition can 
be given to two sisters or any other couple living together where no sexual 
involvement exists.

Homosexuals will argue that without such entitlement, all sorts of business 
issues are made more difficult -- I can see their point.  Unless we again 
criminalise sodomy we cannot easily dismiss their call for individual-based 
entitlement-fairness, I accept that point.

Some homosexuals would be happy with this outcome, they recognise marriage 
for what it is, don't want it because they've rejected the Christian 
worldview which underpins it:  but the radicals demand equal recognition 
with the married!

Stefan Slucki. 




From everettg at successfuladaptations.com  Fri Nov 14 00:54:29 2008
From: everettg at successfuladaptations.com (Everett Gavel)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 19:54:29 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Tolerance
References: <20081113234239.E4799AC9F9@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
Message-ID: <000d01c945f3$8d0738c0$15d59b63@IBMB7D6F383D44>

Hi Linda, and all,

Linda, I'm not sure what you mean about it not being 
advertising, if that was aimed at the fact that the 
comments from the Breakpoint piece were sharing an 
advertisement about an interaction between supposed 
mormons and homosexuals.

The direct link to the page with the audio you mention 
is:
http://www.lc.org/index.cfm?PID=15472#faith  I share 
that only to help anyone else that might possibly have 
the trouble I just had with the links not reading 
properly on that site.

Yesterday's program, November 12, is titled, "The 
Culture Clash Increases."  Is that the one you meant? 
If not, for anyone else interested, below is the list 
of 'recent programs' from the Liberty Counsel.  It goes 
back for a few months worth, 5 days a week.  There seem 
to be some good programs, or at least titles, below. 
Thanks Linda (and Wesley).  ;-)

Strive On!
Everett



Recent Programs
http://www.lc.org/index.cfm?PID=15472#faith

November 13 Liberty Counsel Launches the Sixth Annual 
Friend or Foe Christmas Campaign
November 12 The Culture Clash Increases
November 11 Great Victories on State Marriage 
Amendments
November 10 Rebuild and Renew the Base to Advance 
Conversative Values
November 7 Instead of Complaining, Instead of Walking 
Backwards, We at Liberty Counsel Are Raising Liberty to 
a Higher Power
November 6 Rebuilding America's Wall of Civic Virtue
November 5 Raising Liberty to a Higher Power!
November 4 This is Election Day, A Turning Point in 
America's Future
November 3 The Time Has Come When We Must Vote!
October 31 When Christians Show Up, They Win Elections
October 30 America is at a Crossroads - You are the 
Difference Between Two Different Futures
October 29 Voting Christian Values
October 28 Activist Judges Strike Again!
October 27 Another Stunning Bar Passage Rate for 
Liberty University School of Law
October 24 Homosexual High School to Open on Taxpayer 
Dime
October 23 Homosexual Indoctrination in Full Swing in 
California
October 22 Same-Sex Marriage Once Again Forced on "We 
the People!"
October 21 A Culture of Life or a Culture of Death
October 20 Deceptive "Freedom of Choice Act" Harmful to 
Women and Unborn Children
October 17 Vermont vs. Virginia Law - Future of Little 
Isabella On the Line!
October 16 Vermont Judge Creates Law from the Bench! 
Nightmare Consequences for Little Six-Year Old Isabella
October 15 Voting is a High Privilege ... In Fact, it 
is a Duty!
October 14 Is Voting a Luxury, a Right, an Option or a 
Duty?
October 13 City of Green Bay Receives an Early 
Christmas Present
October 10 Voting is Not an Option - It IS a Duty! - 
It's Not an Option to Throw Away Your Vote!
October 9 Voting for Moral People and Righteous 
Principles
October 8 What Pastors Can Do Relative to the Political 
Process
October 7 It's Time to Get Out the Vote and Talk About 
Biblical Truth
October 6 Pastors Can Speak Up on Election Issues 
Without Risking Church Tax-Exempt Status
October 3 Right to Life Priority Issue that Drives 
Voters
October 2 "Freedom of Choice Act" Would Cause Serious 
Damage to Life, Harm Women and Destroy our Country
October 1 Kentucky Court Upholds the Constitution and 
Rejects an Illegal Homosexual Adoption
September 30 Palin Bashing Professor Exposed
September 29 Historic VA School Has Been Forced to Stop 
Discriminating Against Good News Clubs
September 26 Same-Sex Marriage: Florida Marriage 
protection
September 25 Lawsuit concerning Child Evangelism 
Fellowship in Elk River, Minnesota
September 24 Saving the Institution of Marriage
September 23 California Defense of Marriage Act
September 22 Electrifying the Electorate
September 19 The Price of Freedom is Eternal Vigilance
September 18 Revolution in America - Romania
September 17 Harry in School in Romania. (Bible Info 
Toilet Paper)
September 16 Bible Sniffing Guard Dogs
September 15 Harry Mihets's Experience in Romania
September 12 Federal Marriage Amendment with special 
guest Congressman Paul Brown
September 11 Declaration of American Values
September 10 Catholic Priest Investigated for Quoting 
the Bible in Canada
September 9 Snowflake Babies: Embryo Adoptions and 
Their Implications with special guest Maria Lancaster
September 8 Faith and Politics in America with special 
guest Ralph Benmergui
September 5 Advancing Our Core Consensus Values
September 4 Our Core Consensus Values Ought to Dictate 
How We Live and Who We Vote For
September 3 Now as Always We Should Focus on Values and 
Not Individual Personalities
September 2 Getting Our Priorities Straight During This 
and Other Future Elections
September 1 Getting Our Priorities Straight
August 29 A Federal Judge Says the University of 
California Can Deny Course Credits to Applicants from 
Certain Christian High Schools
August 28 Liberty Counsel Files a Brief at the Supreme 
Court Regarding the Ten Commandments
August 27 The Declaration of American Values
August 26 Faith and Politics in America with special 
guest Ralph Benmergui
August 25 A Couple is Terminated and Evicted Over 
Artwork Containing Scripture Reference
August 22 That Bastian of Freedom - the United 
Nations - Has Now Accorded Two Homosexual Rights Groups 
Consultive Status
August 21 A Federal Court Has Overturned a Ban on 
Funding for Christian Colleges
August 20 CA Marriage Amendment Continues to the Ballot 
but the Attorney General Tries to Torpedo It
August 19 A Federal Court Rules That a Public School 
Cannot Discriminate Against Good News Clubs
August 18 CA Court Has Now Recognized the Rights of 
Parents to Homeschool Their Children
August 15 PA Supreme Court Says Hate Crimes Legislation 
is Unconstitutional
August 14 Promoting Homosexuality in Kindergarten




"I am not ashamed of the gospel, for because it is the 
power of God for the salvation of everyone who 
believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile."
(Romans 1:16)


----- Original Message ----- 
> I've been listening on the internet the last couple 
> days to the Liberty Council radio broadcast.  I urge 
> you all to listen to Tuesday's, I think it was, on 
> the current culture.  This is not advertising; this 
> stuff is real, and out there.  Sit up and take 
> notice!  the website is:
>
> <http://www.lc.org>www.lc.org
>
>  Thanks, Wesley, for this information.
>
> Blessings,
>
> Linda
>





From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Fri Nov 14 01:08:26 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 19:08:26 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] same-sex marriage/civil union - the problems!
References: <002001c945a8$e6813720$15d59b63@IBMB7D6F383D44><8AEF26276C9D40F8A07359A4F618FFA1@bassclef>
	<706DF55F62E948FE8EFF69714F61989C@stefan706c912c>
Message-ID: <9CAB7FC2FF3E4C11AE0D63A064AB03C3@your4dacd0ea75>

You raise some interesting points here and I appreciate them all for how 
they were put forth.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Stefan Slucki" <sslucki at chariot.net.au>
To: "tribble" <lauraeaves at yahoo.com>; "Faith-talk,for the discussion of 
faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>; "Everett Gavel" 
<EverettG at successfuladaptations.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 6:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] same-sex marriage/civil union - the problems!


> Hi Laura and list,
>
> Well, Laura, it does seem that commenting on this most relevant topic on 
> our
> list does open that "can of worms" you refer to.
>
> Now worms are good for fertilizing the garden so I hope what I say, below,
> is useful to all.
>
> Obviously, it's a big subject as the traffic on list has shown in the past
> ten days.
>
> Now I think consensus has been reached on the list as to the desirable
> individual Christian's attitude and approach to individual
> homosexuals/domestic partnership members.
>
> Why resist granting either "civil union" or "marriage" status to these 
> folk?
>
> Firstly, as Chuck Colson argues, heterosexual marriage is and always 
> should
> be held up as the norm in society, with Christian marriage as the ideal. 
> To
> use the word "marriage" in relation to a same-sex partnership is socially
> confusing, inconsistent and suicidal to such convictions.
>
> Secondly, heterosexual marriage has a "civil union" element in that the
> paperwork associated with marriage is State-based not church-based.
>
> As a Minister of the Gospel, I have to prepare couples according (in my
> case) to the directions of the Marriage Act of Australia 1961 and return
> certain papers to the appropriate government registry of births, deaths 
> and
> marriages.  Of course!  I stress to couples that my role is to also 
> prepare
> them from a Christian viewpoint.
>
> The point I'm making is that even if a couple have a civil ceremony, they
> are still lawfully and actually married in God's Sight even though they
> didn't actively seek His Blessing on their union -- for whatever reason.
>
> Giving homosexuals this right is a hair's-breath away from full marriage 
> and
> not to be contemplated.
>
> Thirdly, what practical consequences can it have in society to grant them
> such entitlements?
>
> ** The greater lying illusion that their chosen lifestyle is "normal" 
> equal
> in value to heterosexuality -- for knowledgeable Christians to affirm this
> is to violently offend their own and these folk's conscience!
>
> ** To strengthen their argument in favour of adoption,
> artificial-insemination thus potentially paving the way for greater
> paedophilia and abuse of children.
>
> ** The general departure of our Christian-inheritance society to an
> anything-goes if-ya-into-bestiality-so-what approach to society which is
> beginning to surface in the so-called civilised world.
> U'huh, intimacy with animals or -- as they would say -- some other 
> animals.
>
> Finally, so should we consider ANY recognition of domestic partnerships
> which aren't either marriage or "common law [de facto]" marriages?  What
> about superannuation and similar entitlements for those who've been 
> together
> for years?
>
> Christians do disagree about such issues.  Personally, I can see no reason
> why what are known as co-dependent relationships cannot be registered with
> the State i.e. no marriage-mimicking ceremony, just the recognition that 
> two
> people consider each other their 'significant other'.  Such recognition 
> can
> be given to two sisters or any other couple living together where no 
> sexual
> involvement exists.
>
> Homosexuals will argue that without such entitlement, all sorts of 
> business
> issues are made more difficult -- I can see their point.  Unless we again
> criminalise sodomy we cannot easily dismiss their call for 
> individual-based
> entitlement-fairness, I accept that point.
>
> Some homosexuals would be happy with this outcome, they recognise marriage
> for what it is, don't want it because they've rejected the Christian
> worldview which underpins it:  but the radicals demand equal recognition
> with the married!
>
> Stefan Slucki.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.3/1786 - Release Date: 11/13/2008 
6:01 PM




From rjs059 at peoplepc.com  Fri Nov 14 01:22:41 2008
From: rjs059 at peoplepc.com (rjs059 at peoplepc.com)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 20:22:41 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] same-sex marriage/civil union - the problems!
References: <002001c945a8$e6813720$15d59b63@IBMB7D6F383D44><8AEF26276C9D40F8A07359A4F618FFA1@bassclef>
	<706DF55F62E948FE8EFF69714F61989C@stefan706c912c>
Message-ID: <002b01c945f7$7e165040$0184fe04@rjige047kjawst>

So, Is what you're saying is that we should just except this practice? RJ
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Stefan Slucki" <sslucki at chariot.net.au>
To: "tribble" <lauraeaves at yahoo.com>; "Faith-talk,for the discussion of 
faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>; "Everett Gavel" 
<EverettG at successfuladaptations.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 7:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] same-sex marriage/civil union - the problems!


> Hi Laura and list,
>
> Well, Laura, it does seem that commenting on this most relevant topic on 
> our
> list does open that "can of worms" you refer to.
>
> Now worms are good for fertilizing the garden so I hope what I say, below,
> is useful to all.
>
> Obviously, it's a big subject as the traffic on list has shown in the past
> ten days.
>
> Now I think consensus has been reached on the list as to the desirable
> individual Christian's attitude and approach to individual
> homosexuals/domestic partnership members.
>
> Why resist granting either "civil union" or "marriage" status to these 
> folk?
>
> Firstly, as Chuck Colson argues, heterosexual marriage is and always 
> should
> be held up as the norm in society, with Christian marriage as the ideal. 
> To
> use the word "marriage" in relation to a same-sex partnership is socially
> confusing, inconsistent and suicidal to such convictions.
>
> Secondly, heterosexual marriage has a "civil union" element in that the
> paperwork associated with marriage is State-based not church-based.
>
> As a Minister of the Gospel, I have to prepare couples according (in my
> case) to the directions of the Marriage Act of Australia 1961 and return
> certain papers to the appropriate government registry of births, deaths 
> and
> marriages.  Of course!  I stress to couples that my role is to also 
> prepare
> them from a Christian viewpoint.
>
> The point I'm making is that even if a couple have a civil ceremony, they
> are still lawfully and actually married in God's Sight even though they
> didn't actively seek His Blessing on their union -- for whatever reason.
>
> Giving homosexuals this right is a hair's-breath away from full marriage 
> and
> not to be contemplated.
>
> Thirdly, what practical consequences can it have in society to grant them
> such entitlements?
>
> ** The greater lying illusion that their chosen lifestyle is "normal" 
> equal
> in value to heterosexuality -- for knowledgeable Christians to affirm this
> is to violently offend their own and these folk's conscience!
>
> ** To strengthen their argument in favour of adoption,
> artificial-insemination thus potentially paving the way for greater
> paedophilia and abuse of children.
>
> ** The general departure of our Christian-inheritance society to an
> anything-goes if-ya-into-bestiality-so-what approach to society which is
> beginning to surface in the so-called civilised world.
> U'huh, intimacy with animals or -- as they would say -- some other 
> animals.
>
> Finally, so should we consider ANY recognition of domestic partnerships
> which aren't either marriage or "common law [de facto]" marriages?  What
> about superannuation and similar entitlements for those who've been 
> together
> for years?
>
> Christians do disagree about such issues.  Personally, I can see no reason
> why what are known as co-dependent relationships cannot be registered with
> the State i.e. no marriage-mimicking ceremony, just the recognition that 
> two
> people consider each other their 'significant other'.  Such recognition 
> can
> be given to two sisters or any other couple living together where no 
> sexual
> involvement exists.
>
> Homosexuals will argue that without such entitlement, all sorts of 
> business
> issues are made more difficult -- I can see their point.  Unless we again
> criminalise sodomy we cannot easily dismiss their call for 
> individual-based
> entitlement-fairness, I accept that point.
>
> Some homosexuals would be happy with this outcome, they recognise marriage
> for what it is, don't want it because they've rejected the Christian
> worldview which underpins it:  but the radicals demand equal recognition
> with the married!
>
> Stefan Slucki.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/rjs059%40peoplepc.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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Checked by AVG.
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6:01 PM




From sslucki at chariot.net.au  Fri Nov 14 02:05:36 2008
From: sslucki at chariot.net.au (Stefan Slucki)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 12:35:36 +1030
Subject: [Faith-talk] same-sex marriage/civil union - the problems!
References: <002001c945a8$e6813720$15d59b63@IBMB7D6F383D44><8AEF26276C9D40F8A07359A4F618FFA1@bassclef><706DF55F62E948FE8EFF69714F61989C@stefan706c912c>
	<002b01c945f7$7e165040$0184fe04@rjige047kjawst>
Message-ID: <AEBD958119474F4092462FACAD4D251D@stefan706c912c>

No, R.J.,

I'm not saying that we should happily accept this practice as normal and ok.

I'm saying two things:

Firstly, Christians should NEVER NEVER accept the sexual expression of 
homosexual relationships as being valid, we should ALWAYS ALWAYS be uneasy 
about the even celibate homosexual. I hope that's clear?

Having said the above, homosexuals are people, too, who've been ensnared 
into their set of sins by Satan working on their corrupt fallen nature. 
Furthermore, there are still traces of God's Image even within notorious 
sinners like homosexuals -- I do believe that.

Secondly, what I am saying is that if we want a hearing in the wider society 
for our distinctive views (against legalising same-sex marriage or civil 
unions), I believe we must either press for the re-criminalisation of sodomy 
(which ain't gonna happen without a great-awakening type REVIVAL) or else 
try to blunt/limit the influence of this arrogant, mislead minority so they 
don't pollute our society.

Guys on list, do let's be respectful to each other by first of all checking 
our spelling and grammar before we send a message and then check out the 
other guy's full message before we go off half-cocked, addressing issues 
that aren't there.

Thanks.
Stefan Slucki.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <rjs059 at peoplepc.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 11:52 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] same-sex marriage/civil union - the problems!


> So, Is what you're saying is that we should just except this practice? RJ
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Stefan Slucki" <sslucki at chariot.net.au>
> To: "tribble" <lauraeaves at yahoo.com>; "Faith-talk,for the discussion of
> faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>; "Everett Gavel"
> <EverettG at successfuladaptations.com>
> Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 7:06 PM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] same-sex marriage/civil union - the problems!
>
>
>> Hi Laura and list,
>>
>> Well, Laura, it does seem that commenting on this most relevant topic on
>> our
>> list does open that "can of worms" you refer to.
>>
>> Now worms are good for fertilizing the garden so I hope what I say, 
>> below,
>> is useful to all.
>>
>> Obviously, it's a big subject as the traffic on list has shown in the 
>> past
>> ten days.
>>
>> Now I think consensus has been reached on the list as to the desirable
>> individual Christian's attitude and approach to individual
>> homosexuals/domestic partnership members.
>>
>> Why resist granting either "civil union" or "marriage" status to these
>> folk?
>>
>> Firstly, as Chuck Colson argues, heterosexual marriage is and always
>> should
>> be held up as the norm in society, with Christian marriage as the ideal.
>> To
>> use the word "marriage" in relation to a same-sex partnership is socially
>> confusing, inconsistent and suicidal to such convictions.
>>
>> Secondly, heterosexual marriage has a "civil union" element in that the
>> paperwork associated with marriage is State-based not church-based.
>>
>> As a Minister of the Gospel, I have to prepare couples according (in my
>> case) to the directions of the Marriage Act of Australia 1961 and return
>> certain papers to the appropriate government registry of births, deaths
>> and
>> marriages.  Of course!  I stress to couples that my role is to also
>> prepare
>> them from a Christian viewpoint.
>>
>> The point I'm making is that even if a couple have a civil ceremony, they
>> are still lawfully and actually married in God's Sight even though they
>> didn't actively seek His Blessing on their union -- for whatever reason.
>>
>> Giving homosexuals this right is a hair's-breath away from full marriage
>> and
>> not to be contemplated.
>>
>> Thirdly, what practical consequences can it have in society to grant them
>> such entitlements?
>>
>> ** The greater lying illusion that their chosen lifestyle is "normal"
>> equal
>> in value to heterosexuality -- for knowledgeable Christians to affirm 
>> this
>> is to violently offend their own and these folk's conscience!
>>
>> ** To strengthen their argument in favour of adoption,
>> artificial-insemination thus potentially paving the way for greater
>> paedophilia and abuse of children.
>>
>> ** The general departure of our Christian-inheritance society to an
>> anything-goes if-ya-into-bestiality-so-what approach to society which is
>> beginning to surface in the so-called civilised world.
>> U'huh, intimacy with animals or -- as they would say -- some other
>> animals.
>>
>> Finally, so should we consider ANY recognition of domestic partnerships
>> which aren't either marriage or "common law [de facto]" marriages?  What
>> about superannuation and similar entitlements for those who've been
>> together
>> for years?
>>
>> Christians do disagree about such issues.  Personally, I can see no 
>> reason
>> why what are known as co-dependent relationships cannot be registered 
>> with
>> the State i.e. no marriage-mimicking ceremony, just the recognition that
>> two
>> people consider each other their 'significant other'.  Such recognition
>> can
>> be given to two sisters or any other couple living together where no
>> sexual
>> involvement exists.
>>
>> Homosexuals will argue that without such entitlement, all sorts of
>> business
>> issues are made more difficult -- I can see their point.  Unless we again
>> criminalise sodomy we cannot easily dismiss their call for
>> individual-based
>> entitlement-fairness, I accept that point.
>>
>> Some homosexuals would be happy with this outcome, they recognise 
>> marriage
>> for what it is, don't want it because they've rejected the Christian
>> worldview which underpins it:  but the radicals demand equal recognition
>> with the married!
>>
>> Stefan Slucki.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/rjs059%40peoplepc.com
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.9.3/1786 - Release Date: 11/13/2008
> 6:01 PM
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/sslucki%40chariot.net.au
>
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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6:01 PM




From mentink at frontiernet.net  Fri Nov 14 02:13:15 2008
From: mentink at frontiernet.net (Linda Mentink)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 20:13:15 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Tolerance
In-Reply-To: <000d01c945f3$8d0738c0$15d59b63@IBMB7D6F383D44>
References: <20081113234239.E4799AC9F9@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
	<000d01c945f3$8d0738c0$15d59b63@IBMB7D6F383D44>
Message-ID: <20081114021315.DC7E21A0354@relay03.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>

Everett, I meant that that this program was saying things that are 
happening now, and they are not advertising; they're the real 
thing.  You all were making such a big deal about those guys posing 
as Mormons, etc, and that was just an advertisement of some 
sort.  That is the program I meant.

Please remember that this list is to discuss faith and blindness.  We 
have lost quite a few list members lately.

Blessings,

Linda




From rjs059 at peoplepc.com  Fri Nov 14 02:58:26 2008
From: rjs059 at peoplepc.com (rjs059 at peoplepc.com)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 21:58:26 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] same-sex marriage/civil union - the problems!
References: <002001c945a8$e6813720$15d59b63@IBMB7D6F383D44><8AEF26276C9D40F8A07359A4F618FFA1@bassclef><706DF55F62E948FE8EFF69714F61989C@stefan706c912c><002b01c945f7$7e165040$0184fe04@rjige047kjawst>
	<AEBD958119474F4092462FACAD4D251D@stefan706c912c>
Message-ID: <003001c94604$dfe1f1f0$ef84fe04@rjige047kjawst>

Thank you for clarifying what you are saying. RJ
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Stefan Slucki" <sslucki at chariot.net.au>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 9:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] same-sex marriage/civil union - the problems!


> No, R.J.,
>
> I'm not saying that we should happily accept this practice as normal and 
> ok.
>
> I'm saying two things:
>
> Firstly, Christians should NEVER NEVER accept the sexual expression of
> homosexual relationships as being valid, we should ALWAYS ALWAYS be uneasy
> about the even celibate homosexual. I hope that's clear?
>
> Having said the above, homosexuals are people, too, who've been ensnared
> into their set of sins by Satan working on their corrupt fallen nature.
> Furthermore, there are still traces of God's Image even within notorious
> sinners like homosexuals -- I do believe that.
>
> Secondly, what I am saying is that if we want a hearing in the wider 
> society
> for our distinctive views (against legalising same-sex marriage or civil
> unions), I believe we must either press for the re-criminalisation of 
> sodomy
> (which ain't gonna happen without a great-awakening type REVIVAL) or else
> try to blunt/limit the influence of this arrogant, mislead minority so 
> they
> don't pollute our society.
>
> Guys on list, do let's be respectful to each other by first of all 
> checking
> our spelling and grammar before we send a message and then check out the
> other guy's full message before we go off half-cocked, addressing issues
> that aren't there.
>
> Thanks.
> Stefan Slucki.
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <rjs059 at peoplepc.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 11:52 AM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] same-sex marriage/civil union - the problems!
>
>
>> So, Is what you're saying is that we should just except this practice? RJ
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Stefan Slucki" <sslucki at chariot.net.au>
>> To: "tribble" <lauraeaves at yahoo.com>; "Faith-talk,for the discussion of
>> faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>; "Everett Gavel"
>> <EverettG at successfuladaptations.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 7:06 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] same-sex marriage/civil union - the problems!
>>
>>
>>> Hi Laura and list,
>>>
>>> Well, Laura, it does seem that commenting on this most relevant topic on
>>> our
>>> list does open that "can of worms" you refer to.
>>>
>>> Now worms are good for fertilizing the garden so I hope what I say,
>>> below,
>>> is useful to all.
>>>
>>> Obviously, it's a big subject as the traffic on list has shown in the
>>> past
>>> ten days.
>>>
>>> Now I think consensus has been reached on the list as to the desirable
>>> individual Christian's attitude and approach to individual
>>> homosexuals/domestic partnership members.
>>>
>>> Why resist granting either "civil union" or "marriage" status to these
>>> folk?
>>>
>>> Firstly, as Chuck Colson argues, heterosexual marriage is and always
>>> should
>>> be held up as the norm in society, with Christian marriage as the ideal.
>>> To
>>> use the word "marriage" in relation to a same-sex partnership is 
>>> socially
>>> confusing, inconsistent and suicidal to such convictions.
>>>
>>> Secondly, heterosexual marriage has a "civil union" element in that the
>>> paperwork associated with marriage is State-based not church-based.
>>>
>>> As a Minister of the Gospel, I have to prepare couples according (in my
>>> case) to the directions of the Marriage Act of Australia 1961 and return
>>> certain papers to the appropriate government registry of births, deaths
>>> and
>>> marriages.  Of course!  I stress to couples that my role is to also
>>> prepare
>>> them from a Christian viewpoint.
>>>
>>> The point I'm making is that even if a couple have a civil ceremony, 
>>> they
>>> are still lawfully and actually married in God's Sight even though they
>>> didn't actively seek His Blessing on their union -- for whatever reason.
>>>
>>> Giving homosexuals this right is a hair's-breath away from full marriage
>>> and
>>> not to be contemplated.
>>>
>>> Thirdly, what practical consequences can it have in society to grant 
>>> them
>>> such entitlements?
>>>
>>> ** The greater lying illusion that their chosen lifestyle is "normal"
>>> equal
>>> in value to heterosexuality -- for knowledgeable Christians to affirm
>>> this
>>> is to violently offend their own and these folk's conscience!
>>>
>>> ** To strengthen their argument in favour of adoption,
>>> artificial-insemination thus potentially paving the way for greater
>>> paedophilia and abuse of children.
>>>
>>> ** The general departure of our Christian-inheritance society to an
>>> anything-goes if-ya-into-bestiality-so-what approach to society which is
>>> beginning to surface in the so-called civilised world.
>>> U'huh, intimacy with animals or -- as they would say -- some other
>>> animals.
>>>
>>> Finally, so should we consider ANY recognition of domestic partnerships
>>> which aren't either marriage or "common law [de facto]" marriages?  What
>>> about superannuation and similar entitlements for those who've been
>>> together
>>> for years?
>>>
>>> Christians do disagree about such issues.  Personally, I can see no
>>> reason
>>> why what are known as co-dependent relationships cannot be registered
>>> with
>>> the State i.e. no marriage-mimicking ceremony, just the recognition that
>>> two
>>> people consider each other their 'significant other'.  Such recognition
>>> can
>>> be given to two sisters or any other couple living together where no
>>> sexual
>>> involvement exists.
>>>
>>> Homosexuals will argue that without such entitlement, all sorts of
>>> business
>>> issues are made more difficult -- I can see their point.  Unless we 
>>> again
>>> criminalise sodomy we cannot easily dismiss their call for
>>> individual-based
>>> entitlement-fairness, I accept that point.
>>>
>>> Some homosexuals would be happy with this outcome, they recognise
>>> marriage
>>> for what it is, don't want it because they've rejected the Christian
>>> worldview which underpins it:  but the radicals demand equal recognition
>>> with the married!
>>>
>>> Stefan Slucki.
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/rjs059%40peoplepc.com
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG.
>> Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.9.3/1786 - Release Date: 
>> 11/13/2008
>> 6:01 PM
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/sslucki%40chariot.net.au
>>
>>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.3/1786 - Release Date: 11/13/2008
> 6:01 PM
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/rjs059%40peoplepc.com


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From poetlori8 at msn.com  Fri Nov 14 03:59:06 2008
From: poetlori8 at msn.com (Barbara Hammel)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 21:59:06 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Fw: BreakPoint: So Much for Tolerance, 11/13/08
In-Reply-To: <002001c945a8$e6813720$15d59b63@IBMB7D6F383D44><8AEF26276C9D40F8A07359A4F618FFA1@bassclef>
	<000f01c945be$11a63da0$15d59b63@IBMB7D6F383D44>
References: <002001c945a8$e6813720$15d59b63@IBMB7D6F383D44><8AEF26276C9D40F8A07359A4F618FFA1@bassclef>
	<000f01c945be$11a63da0$15d59b63@IBMB7D6F383D44>
Message-ID: <BAY113-DS60E72DB25FE6F0108E01BEB160@phx.gbl>

I was wondering if they read the same thing I did.  Just because that 
hateful ad was shown does not excuse the behavior that is going on right 
now.
Maybe it's time now that we Christians in the States shall see persecution 
at our doors.  And if it does come to you, remember they hated Jesus before 
you.  They don't hate you for your sake, but who you worship.  I would like 
to think that I would be one who would die because of my faith rather than 
live because I denied knowing Him.
Barbara

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Everett Gavel" <everettg at successfuladaptations.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 12:31 PM
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Fw: BreakPoint: So Much for Tolerance, 11/13/08

> Unfortunately, some of you seem to have misunderstood what was forwarded. 
> Please read again, and read slowly, with some attention to the details. 
> The bit about the two mormons visiting and forcing themselves into the 
> home of the "lesbian couple," was a political *advertisement* against Prop 
> 8.  It was not real.  What was real, however, and was the reason I 
> forwarded it, was to show that the hatred and (although minor, thus far, 
> compared to other countries) persecution of Christians is here and alive 
> in the USA.
>
> Strive On,
> Everett
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> that's weird -- I doubt the 2 young men in the report were really mormon
> missionaries as while the mormons campaign vigorously against same sex
> marriage, they wouldn't have committed a crime (stealing rings and
> ransacking a house). Must have been a front used by 2 guys looking for
> trouble.
> My church is adamantly against same sex unions, but I personally wonder
> about the justification for banning them as the people involved would be
> living a gay lifestyle to begin with and changing the legal status 
> wouldn't
> affect anyone else -- I understand wanting the name to be different: 
> "civil
> union" as opposed to marriage.  My friends at church say they oppose any
> kind of union as that would put them in a contract that would be harder to
> get out of should they change their mindset, even if the contract was not
> deemed a "marriage".
> Is this a can of worms that we don't want to open on this list?
> I have to teach a lesson on marriage this coming sunday so am thinking 
> about
> it in case one of the kids brings it up...
> Take care.
> --le
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "BreakPoint" <prison_fellowship at informz.net>
> Subject: BreakPoint: So Much for Tolerance, 11/13/08
>
> ***************************
> BREAKPOINT DAILY TRANSCRIPT
> ***************************
>
> So Much for Tolerance
> The Aftermath of Prop 8
>
> November 13, 2008
>
> The ad ran all over California on Election Day -- and
> surely sets a record for anti-religious bigotry. Two
> clean-cut young men knock at the door of a lesbian
> couple. The men identify themselves as Mormon
> missionaries. "We're here to take away your rights,"
> they announce.
>
> They snatch the women's wedding rings off their fingers
> and ransack their home. When they find the couple's
> marriage license, they rip it in half. "Say no to a
> church taking over your government," the voiceover
> says. "Vote 'no' on Proposition 8."
>
> Despite such vicious attacks, California's Proposition
> 8, which defined marriage as between one man and one
> woman, passed. But the assaults on churches have just
> begun.
>
> Two days after the election, 2,000 homosexual
> protesters surrounded a Mormon temple in Los Angeles
> chanting "Mormon scum." Protesters picketed Rick
> Warren's Saddleback Church, holding signs reading
> "Purpose-Driven Hate." Calvary Chapel in Chino Hills
> was spray painted. Church members' cars have been
> vandalized, and at least two Christians were assaulted.
> Protesters even hurled racial epithets at
> African-Americans because African-Americans voted
> overwhelmingly in favor of traditional marriage.
>
> This is an outrage. What hypocrisy from those who spend
> all of their time preaching tolerance to the rest of
> us!  How dare they threaten and attack political
> opponents? We live a democratic country, not a banana
> republic ruled by thugs.
>
> Clearly, Christians need to redouble their efforts to
> help people understand what marriage is all about. In
> Los Angeles, when protesters gathered at the Cathedral
> of Our Lady of the Angels, they chanted, "What Would
> Jesus say?"
>
> That's a good question, and the Church should not
> hesitate to answer it. What would Jesus say about
> same-sex "marriage?"
>
> To get to the answer, let's first understand the
> meaning and purpose of marriage. In his book THE CLASH
> OF ORTHODOXIES, Princeton philosopher Robert George
> writes that matrimonial law reflects a moral
> judgment -- that marriage is inherently heterosexual,
> monogamous, and permanent -- a union of one man and one
> woman.
>
> This view reflects the biblical and natural law
> understanding that marriage is a two-in-one-flesh
> communion of persons. This communion is consummated by
> sexual acts that are reproductive in nature. They unite
> the spouses as a single procreative unit -- an organic
> unity achieved even by infertile couples. Only a mated
> pair can be a complete organism capable of human
> procreation.
>
> Since homosexual acts have no relationship to
> procreation and cannot unite persons organically, these
> acts cannot be marital -- which means relationships
> integrated around them cannot be marriages.
>
> We've got a winsome case, but we've got to get better
> equipped to explain it to our neighbors. You could
> start by reading THE CLASH OF ORTHODOXIES and other
> material available on our website. And then, start
> discussing these issues in your small groups, Sunday
> school classes, and youth groups.
>
> By protecting traditional marriage, we aren't taking
> away anybody's rights. We are simply upholding the
> framework of society's most basic institution, the loss
> of which would irreparably damage our families and our
> society.
>
>
> Get links to further information on today's topic
> (http://www.breakpoint.org/listingarticle.asp?ID=10520)
>
>
>
> *********************
> ADDITIONAL INFORMATION
> *********************
>
> CENTURIONS
> --------------------------
> Turn the world right side up. Learn more about the 2009
> Centurions Program
> (http://www.breakpoint.org/generic.asp?ID=2748) and how
> you can apply to study Christian worldview with Chuck
> Colson!
>
>
> WILBERFORCE WEEKEND
> --------------------------
> Register now
> (http://www.breakpoint.org/generic.asp?ID=81) for the
> 2009 Wilberforce Weekend Conference, January 16-18 in
> Lansdowne, Va.
>
>
> RECOMMENDED RESOURCE
> --------------------------
> Charles Colson on Politics and the Christian Faith
> (https://www.pfm.org/storeitem.asp?ID=7712) (DVD)
>
>
> ONLINE FEATURE
> ---------------------------
> All Things Examined: "Teaching the Controversy:
> Students Deserve No Less"
> (http://www.breakpoint.org/listingarticle.asp?ID=10479)
> by Regis Nicoll
>
>
> THE POINT
> ---------------------------
> . Seeking Forgiveness, Online
> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/the-apology-pro.html)
> . Obama Reality Check
> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/please-no-obama.html)
> . The Modern Holocaust?
> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/striped-pajamas.html)
> . Don't Forego the Foreclosed
> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/the-point-rad-7.html)
> . Words We Shouldn't of Used
> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/fun-with-words.html)
>
> Listen to Today's Point Radio Broadcast
> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org)
>
>
>
> For printer-friendly version, simply visit
> www.breakpoint.org
> (http://www.informz.net/z/cjUucD9taT01MDc0NzAmcD0xJnU9MTAxNjQ1NTQ0JmxpPTE4ODMzODk/index.html)
> and click on Today's Commentary. The printer-friendly
> link is on the left-hand column.
>
> Copyright (c) 2008 Prison Fellowship
>
> THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN
> FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
>
>
>
> "BreakPoint" is a daily commentary on news and trends
> from a Christian perspective. Heard on more than 1000
> radio outlets nationwide, "BreakPoint" transcripts are
> also available on the Internet.
>
> BreakPoint is the worldview ministry of PFM (formerly
> Prison Fellowship Ministries): 44180 Riverside Parkway,
> Lansdowne, VA 20176.
>
> Subscribe to BreakPoint
> (http://msg1svc.net/static/pfm/leadcapture/subscribe.cfm?site=BP)
> .
>
> You are receiving this message as a subscriber to
> BreakPoint's daily newsletter.
>
>
> Powered by Informz for iMIS
> http://www.informzforimis.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
> 



From lauraeaves at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 14 04:02:19 2008
From: lauraeaves at yahoo.com (tribble)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 22:02:19 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Fw: BreakPoint: So Much for Tolerance, 11/13/08
References: <002001c945a8$e6813720$15d59b63@IBMB7D6F383D44><4383d01d0811130959v69706825y1446987eb0d9e692@mail.gmail.com>
	<A30D6E1E83994ECA9BD029CCE94B1CF8@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <D8977C8D8E61472F8DA6A0CE0DCFD789@bassclef>

the mormons would disagree with this assessment -- some beliefs are 
different, but the name of their church is the church of jesus christ and 
they do teach christian principles. in fact they find it puzzling why others 
go out of their way to call them non christian.
But I have to get back to the issue at hand which is my sunday school lesson 
on sunday and what to say about marriage...
--le


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "George McDermith" <george.mcdermith at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 1:33 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Fw: BreakPoint: So Much for Tolerance, 11/13/08


    I wish to add that Mormans are not Christians, looking at the historic
and tehological differences between Mormanism and Christianity.  This does
not however change the fact that on this issue they are quite correct, and
regardless of whether they are or not no one deserves this sort of absurd
hatred masking itself as a fire for "tollerence."

    Thanks for this article, I shall post it on my blog, as I believe it
sums up well the Christian response to the marriage question.

    In Christ,

    G.W.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "Everett Gavel" <EverettG at successfuladaptations.com>; "Faith-talk,for
the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 10:59 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Fw: BreakPoint: So Much for Tolerance, 11/13/08


> Interesting.  I believe those "mormons" and those other so-called
> Christian hyppocrites did take away the women's rights.  I'm sorry but
> to end this thread, I want to say that my friends who are gay will not
> be living in California because of what happened with Prop. 8.
> Beth
>
> On 11/13/08, Everett Gavel <everettg at successfuladaptations.com> wrote:
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "BreakPoint" <prison_fellowship at informz.net>
>> Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 10:42 AM
>> Subject: BreakPoint: So Much for Tolerance, 11/13/08
>>
>> ***************************
>> BREAKPOINT DAILY TRANSCRIPT
>> ***************************
>>
>> So Much for Tolerance
>> The Aftermath of Prop 8
>>
>> November 13, 2008
>>
>> The ad ran all over California on Election Day -- and
>> surely sets a record for anti-religious bigotry. Two
>> clean-cut young men knock at the door of a lesbian
>> couple. The men identify themselves as Mormon
>> missionaries. "We're here to take away your rights,"
>> they announce.
>>
>> They snatch the women's wedding rings off their fingers
>> and ransack their home. When they find the couple's
>> marriage license, they rip it in half. "Say no to a
>> church taking over your government," the voiceover
>> says. "Vote 'no' on Proposition 8."
>>
>> Despite such vicious attacks, California's Proposition
>> 8, which defined marriage as between one man and one
>> woman, passed. But the assaults on churches have just
>> begun.
>>
>> Two days after the election, 2,000 homosexual
>> protesters surrounded a Mormon temple in Los Angeles
>> chanting "Mormon scum." Protesters picketed Rick
>> Warren's Saddleback Church, holding signs reading
>> "Purpose-Driven Hate." Calvary Chapel in Chino Hills
>> was spray painted. Church members' cars have been
>> vandalized, and at least two Christians were assaulted.
>> Protesters even hurled racial epithets at
>> African-Americans because African-Americans voted
>> overwhelmingly in favor of traditional marriage.
>>
>> This is an outrage. What hypocrisy from those who spend
>> all of their time preaching tolerance to the rest of
>> us!  How dare they threaten and attack political
>> opponents? We live a democratic country, not a banana
>> republic ruled by thugs.
>>
>> Clearly, Christians need to redouble their efforts to
>> help people understand what marriage is all about. In
>> Los Angeles, when protesters gathered at the Cathedral
>> of Our Lady of the Angels, they chanted, "What Would
>> Jesus say?"
>>
>> That's a good question, and the Church should not
>> hesitate to answer it. What would Jesus say about
>> same-sex "marriage?"
>>
>> To get to the answer, let's first understand the
>> meaning and purpose of marriage. In his book THE CLASH
>> OF ORTHODOXIES, Princeton philosopher Robert George
>> writes that matrimonial law reflects a moral
>> judgment -- that marriage is inherently heterosexual,
>> monogamous, and permanent -- a union of one man and one
>> woman.
>>
>> This view reflects the biblical and natural law
>> understanding that marriage is a two-in-one-flesh
>> communion of persons. This communion is consummated by
>> sexual acts that are reproductive in nature. They unite
>> the spouses as a single procreative unit -- an organic
>> unity achieved even by infertile couples. Only a mated
>> pair can be a complete organism capable of human
>> procreation.
>>
>> Since homosexual acts have no relationship to
>> procreation and cannot unite persons organically, these
>> acts cannot be marital -- which means relationships
>> integrated around them cannot be marriages.
>>
>> We've got a winsome case, but we've got to get better
>> equipped to explain it to our neighbors. You could
>> start by reading THE CLASH OF ORTHODOXIES and other
>> material available on our website. And then, start
>> discussing these issues in your small groups, Sunday
>> school classes, and youth groups.
>>
>> By protecting traditional marriage, we aren't taking
>> away anybody's rights. We are simply upholding the
>> framework of society's most basic institution, the loss
>> of which would irreparably damage our families and our
>> society.
>>
>>
>> Get links to further information on today's topic
>> (http://www.breakpoint.org/listingarticle.asp?ID=10520)
>>
>>
>>
>> *********************
>> ADDITIONAL INFORMATION
>> *********************
>>
>> CENTURIONS
>> --------------------------
>> Turn the world right side up. Learn more about the 2009
>> Centurions Program
>> (http://www.breakpoint.org/generic.asp?ID=2748) and how
>> you can apply to study Christian worldview with Chuck
>> Colson!
>>
>>
>> WILBERFORCE WEEKEND
>> --------------------------
>> Register now
>> (http://www.breakpoint.org/generic.asp?ID=81) for the
>> 2009 Wilberforce Weekend Conference, January 16-18 in
>> Lansdowne, Va.
>>
>>
>> RECOMMENDED RESOURCE
>> --------------------------
>> Charles Colson on Politics and the Christian Faith
>> (https://www.pfm.org/storeitem.asp?ID=7712) (DVD)
>>
>>
>> ONLINE FEATURE
>> ---------------------------
>> All Things Examined: "Teaching the Controversy:
>> Students Deserve No Less"
>> (http://www.breakpoint.org/listingarticle.asp?ID=10479)
>> by Regis Nicoll
>>
>>
>> THE POINT
>> ---------------------------
>>  . Seeking Forgiveness, Online
>> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/the-apology-pro.html)
>>  . Obama Reality Check
>> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/please-no-obama.html)
>>  . The Modern Holocaust?
>> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/striped-pajamas.html)
>>  . Don't Forego the Foreclosed
>> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/the-point-rad-7.html)
>>  . Words We Shouldn't of Used
>> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/fun-with-words.html)
>>
>> Listen to Today's Point Radio Broadcast
>> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org)
>>
>>
>>
>> For printer-friendly version, simply visit
>> www.breakpoint.org
>> (http://www.informz.net/z/cjUucD9taT01MDc0NzAmcD0xJnU9MTAxNjQ1NTQ0JmxpPTE4ODMzODk/index.html)
>> and click on Today's Commentary. The printer-friendly
>> link is on the left-hand column.
>>
>> Copyright (c) 2008 Prison Fellowship
>>
>> THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN
>> FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
>>
>>
>>
>> "BreakPoint" is a daily commentary on news and trends
>> from a Christian perspective. Heard on more than 1000
>> radio outlets nationwide, "BreakPoint" transcripts are
>> also available on the Internet.
>>
>> BreakPoint is the worldview ministry of PFM (formerly
>> Prison Fellowship Ministries): 44180 Riverside Parkway,
>> Lansdowne, VA 20176.
>>
>> Subscribe to BreakPoint
>> (http://msg1svc.net/static/pfm/leadcapture/subscribe.cfm?site=BP)
>> .
>>
>> You are receiving this message as a subscriber to
>> BreakPoint's daily newsletter.
>>
>>
>> Powered by Informz for iMIS
>> http://www.informzforimis.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/george.mcdermith%40gmail.com


_______________________________________________
Faith-talk mailing list
Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
Faith-talk:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/lauraeaves%40yahoo.com 




From poetlori8 at msn.com  Fri Nov 14 04:05:13 2008
From: poetlori8 at msn.com (Barbara Hammel)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 22:05:13 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Another Thought
In-Reply-To: <84AA41E1A0EA4958A2E33AB534A998BA@your4dacd0ea75>
	<4383d01d0811131438s31d1796hd34703b81b498648@mail.gmail.com>
References: <84AA41E1A0EA4958A2E33AB534A998BA@your4dacd0ea75>
	<4383d01d0811131438s31d1796hd34703b81b498648@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY113-DS6690B968C93E90466EC18EB160@phx.gbl>

It would be unconstitutional to ban Prop 8.  The people have spoken and it's 
wrong to use the courts to overrule what the people have spoken for.
Barbara

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 4:38 PM
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Another Thought

> They might have, but as Everet said in a previous e-mail, the story
> was just a political *ad* against prop 8.  Now, I hope they are going
> to ban prop 8 in the Obama camp because it's wrong, and we need to be
> considerate of others, and if a Christian wants to rob somebody of a
> wedding ring and a iece of paper, let 'em do it.  If the couple loves
> each other, they can love each other all they want.
> Beth
>
> On 11/13/08, Julie C. Vogt <jcvogt at pressenter.com> wrote:
>> If some one pounded on my door and said they were there to confiscate my
>> wedding rings because my marriage was unconstitutional, they'd better 
>> have a
>> police officer with them.  A Mormon is a Mormon is a Mormon.  A Christian 
>> is
>> a Christian is a Christian.  And a robber is a robber is a robber.  I 
>> hope
>> they made it to the nearest pawn shop to pick their rings up, even if 
>> they
>> had to buy them back again.
>>
>>
>>
>> "Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human
>> soul," American Humorist Mark Twain
>>
>> "An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth Jernigan,
>> Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind
>>
>> "A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their
>> contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
>>
>> "Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>>
>> "No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push, 
>> 1976.
>>
>> "With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can be
>> reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic," the Late 
>> Dr.
>> Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation of the Blind.
>>
>> Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
> 



From george.mcdermith at gmail.com  Fri Nov 14 05:33:51 2008
From: george.mcdermith at gmail.com (George McDermith)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 22:33:51 -0700
Subject: [Faith-talk] Fw: BreakPoint: So Much for Tolerance, 11/13/08
In-Reply-To: <D8977C8D8E61472F8DA6A0CE0DCFD789@bassclef>
References: <002001c945a8$e6813720$15d59b63@IBMB7D6F383D44><4383d01d0811130959v69706825y1446987eb0d9e692@mail.gmail.com><A30D6E1E83994ECA9BD029CCE94B1CF8@OwnerPC>
	<D8977C8D8E61472F8DA6A0CE0DCFD789@bassclef>
Message-ID: <1A684D5E32CD43C696ED88E46ECFDF7B@OwnerPC>

    I'm sure they would, just as Jahova Witnesses and Christian Scientists 
would also disagree with being classified as cults.  Unfortunately their 
agreement or lack there of does not change the theological and subsequently 
fundamental differences between these cults and Christian churches.


  My two cents.

    In Christ,

    George

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "tribble" <lauraeaves at yahoo.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 9:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Fw: BreakPoint: So Much for Tolerance, 11/13/08


> the mormons would disagree with this assessment -- some beliefs are
> different, but the name of their church is the church of jesus christ and
> they do teach christian principles. in fact they find it puzzling why 
> others
> go out of their way to call them non christian.
> But I have to get back to the issue at hand which is my sunday school 
> lesson
> on sunday and what to say about marriage...
> --le
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "George McDermith" <george.mcdermith at gmail.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 1:33 PM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Fw: BreakPoint: So Much for Tolerance, 11/13/08
>
>
>    I wish to add that Mormans are not Christians, looking at the historic
> and tehological differences between Mormanism and Christianity.  This does
> not however change the fact that on this issue they are quite correct, and
> regardless of whether they are or not no one deserves this sort of absurd
> hatred masking itself as a fire for "tollerence."
>
>    Thanks for this article, I shall post it on my blog, as I believe it
> sums up well the Christian response to the marriage question.
>
>    In Christ,
>
>    G.W.
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> To: "Everett Gavel" <EverettG at successfuladaptations.com>; "Faith-talk,for
> the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 10:59 AM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Fw: BreakPoint: So Much for Tolerance, 11/13/08
>
>
>> Interesting.  I believe those "mormons" and those other so-called
>> Christian hyppocrites did take away the women's rights.  I'm sorry but
>> to end this thread, I want to say that my friends who are gay will not
>> be living in California because of what happened with Prop. 8.
>> Beth
>>
>> On 11/13/08, Everett Gavel <everettg at successfuladaptations.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "BreakPoint" <prison_fellowship at informz.net>
>>> Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 10:42 AM
>>> Subject: BreakPoint: So Much for Tolerance, 11/13/08
>>>
>>> ***************************
>>> BREAKPOINT DAILY TRANSCRIPT
>>> ***************************
>>>
>>> So Much for Tolerance
>>> The Aftermath of Prop 8
>>>
>>> November 13, 2008
>>>
>>> The ad ran all over California on Election Day -- and
>>> surely sets a record for anti-religious bigotry. Two
>>> clean-cut young men knock at the door of a lesbian
>>> couple. The men identify themselves as Mormon
>>> missionaries. "We're here to take away your rights,"
>>> they announce.
>>>
>>> They snatch the women's wedding rings off their fingers
>>> and ransack their home. When they find the couple's
>>> marriage license, they rip it in half. "Say no to a
>>> church taking over your government," the voiceover
>>> says. "Vote 'no' on Proposition 8."
>>>
>>> Despite such vicious attacks, California's Proposition
>>> 8, which defined marriage as between one man and one
>>> woman, passed. But the assaults on churches have just
>>> begun.
>>>
>>> Two days after the election, 2,000 homosexual
>>> protesters surrounded a Mormon temple in Los Angeles
>>> chanting "Mormon scum." Protesters picketed Rick
>>> Warren's Saddleback Church, holding signs reading
>>> "Purpose-Driven Hate." Calvary Chapel in Chino Hills
>>> was spray painted. Church members' cars have been
>>> vandalized, and at least two Christians were assaulted.
>>> Protesters even hurled racial epithets at
>>> African-Americans because African-Americans voted
>>> overwhelmingly in favor of traditional marriage.
>>>
>>> This is an outrage. What hypocrisy from those who spend
>>> all of their time preaching tolerance to the rest of
>>> us!  How dare they threaten and attack political
>>> opponents? We live a democratic country, not a banana
>>> republic ruled by thugs.
>>>
>>> Clearly, Christians need to redouble their efforts to
>>> help people understand what marriage is all about. In
>>> Los Angeles, when protesters gathered at the Cathedral
>>> of Our Lady of the Angels, they chanted, "What Would
>>> Jesus say?"
>>>
>>> That's a good question, and the Church should not
>>> hesitate to answer it. What would Jesus say about
>>> same-sex "marriage?"
>>>
>>> To get to the answer, let's first understand the
>>> meaning and purpose of marriage. In his book THE CLASH
>>> OF ORTHODOXIES, Princeton philosopher Robert George
>>> writes that matrimonial law reflects a moral
>>> judgment -- that marriage is inherently heterosexual,
>>> monogamous, and permanent -- a union of one man and one
>>> woman.
>>>
>>> This view reflects the biblical and natural law
>>> understanding that marriage is a two-in-one-flesh
>>> communion of persons. This communion is consummated by
>>> sexual acts that are reproductive in nature. They unite
>>> the spouses as a single procreative unit -- an organic
>>> unity achieved even by infertile couples. Only a mated
>>> pair can be a complete organism capable of human
>>> procreation.
>>>
>>> Since homosexual acts have no relationship to
>>> procreation and cannot unite persons organically, these
>>> acts cannot be marital -- which means relationships
>>> integrated around them cannot be marriages.
>>>
>>> We've got a winsome case, but we've got to get better
>>> equipped to explain it to our neighbors. You could
>>> start by reading THE CLASH OF ORTHODOXIES and other
>>> material available on our website. And then, start
>>> discussing these issues in your small groups, Sunday
>>> school classes, and youth groups.
>>>
>>> By protecting traditional marriage, we aren't taking
>>> away anybody's rights. We are simply upholding the
>>> framework of society's most basic institution, the loss
>>> of which would irreparably damage our families and our
>>> society.
>>>
>>>
>>> Get links to further information on today's topic
>>> (http://www.breakpoint.org/listingarticle.asp?ID=10520)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *********************
>>> ADDITIONAL INFORMATION
>>> *********************
>>>
>>> CENTURIONS
>>> --------------------------
>>> Turn the world right side up. Learn more about the 2009
>>> Centurions Program
>>> (http://www.breakpoint.org/generic.asp?ID=2748) and how
>>> you can apply to study Christian worldview with Chuck
>>> Colson!
>>>
>>>
>>> WILBERFORCE WEEKEND
>>> --------------------------
>>> Register now
>>> (http://www.breakpoint.org/generic.asp?ID=81) for the
>>> 2009 Wilberforce Weekend Conference, January 16-18 in
>>> Lansdowne, Va.
>>>
>>>
>>> RECOMMENDED RESOURCE
>>> --------------------------
>>> Charles Colson on Politics and the Christian Faith
>>> (https://www.pfm.org/storeitem.asp?ID=7712) (DVD)
>>>
>>>
>>> ONLINE FEATURE
>>> ---------------------------
>>> All Things Examined: "Teaching the Controversy:
>>> Students Deserve No Less"
>>> (http://www.breakpoint.org/listingarticle.asp?ID=10479)
>>> by Regis Nicoll
>>>
>>>
>>> THE POINT
>>> ---------------------------
>>>  . Seeking Forgiveness, Online
>>> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/the-apology-pro.html)
>>>  . Obama Reality Check
>>> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/please-no-obama.html)
>>>  . The Modern Holocaust?
>>> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/striped-pajamas.html)
>>>  . Don't Forego the Foreclosed
>>> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/the-point-rad-7.html)
>>>  . Words We Shouldn't of Used
>>> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/fun-with-words.html)
>>>
>>> Listen to Today's Point Radio Broadcast
>>> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> For printer-friendly version, simply visit
>>> www.breakpoint.org
>>> (http://www.informz.net/z/cjUucD9taT01MDc0NzAmcD0xJnU9MTAxNjQ1NTQ0JmxpPTE4ODMzODk/index.html)
>>> and click on Today's Commentary. The printer-friendly
>>> link is on the left-hand column.
>>>
>>> Copyright (c) 2008 Prison Fellowship
>>>
>>> THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN
>>> FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "BreakPoint" is a daily commentary on news and trends
>>> from a Christian perspective. Heard on more than 1000
>>> radio outlets nationwide, "BreakPoint" transcripts are
>>> also available on the Internet.
>>>
>>> BreakPoint is the worldview ministry of PFM (formerly
>>> Prison Fellowship Ministries): 44180 Riverside Parkway,
>>> Lansdowne, VA 20176.
>>>
>>> Subscribe to BreakPoint
>>> (http://msg1svc.net/static/pfm/leadcapture/subscribe.cfm?site=BP)
>>> .
>>>
>>> You are receiving this message as a subscriber to
>>> BreakPoint's daily newsletter.
>>>
>>>
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>>
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>
>
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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> 




From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Fri Nov 14 10:13:50 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 04:13:50 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Fw: BreakPoint: So Much for Tolerance, 11/13/08
References: <002001c945a8$e6813720$15d59b63@IBMB7D6F383D44><8AEF26276C9D40F8A07359A4F618FFA1@bassclef><000f01c945be$11a63da0$15d59b63@IBMB7D6F383D44>
	<BAY113-DS60E72DB25FE6F0108E01BEB160@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <2EDD60D8B1F84A348D075FD546F0E683@Alan>

Amen, amen and amen!  I was talking with someone the other day and saying that we in America are kind of clueless when it comes to persecution for our beliefs but that that is going to change very soon, I fear. It's already starting to.



+-+-+-

   Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, then I will come in to him, 
and will dine with him, and he with me. Revelation 3:20
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Barbara Hammel" <poetlori8 at msn.com>
To: "Everett Gavel" <EverettG at successfuladaptations.com>; "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 9:59 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Fw: BreakPoint: So Much for Tolerance, 11/13/08


>I was wondering if they read the same thing I did.  Just because that 
> hateful ad was shown does not excuse the behavior that is going on right 
> now.
> Maybe it's time now that we Christians in the States shall see persecution 
> at our doors.  And if it does come to you, remember they hated Jesus before 
> you.  They don't hate you for your sake, but who you worship.  I would like 
> to think that I would be one who would die because of my faith rather than 
> live because I denied knowing Him.
> Barbara
> 
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Everett Gavel" <everettg at successfuladaptations.com>
> Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 12:31 PM
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Fw: BreakPoint: So Much for Tolerance, 11/13/08
> 
>> Unfortunately, some of you seem to have misunderstood what was forwarded. 
>> Please read again, and read slowly, with some attention to the details. 
>> The bit about the two mormons visiting and forcing themselves into the 
>> home of the "lesbian couple," was a political *advertisement* against Prop 
>> 8.  It was not real.  What was real, however, and was the reason I 
>> forwarded it, was to show that the hatred and (although minor, thus far, 
>> compared to other countries) persecution of Christians is here and alive 
>> in the USA.
>>
>> Strive On,
>> Everett
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> that's weird -- I doubt the 2 young men in the report were really mormon
>> missionaries as while the mormons campaign vigorously against same sex
>> marriage, they wouldn't have committed a crime (stealing rings and
>> ransacking a house). Must have been a front used by 2 guys looking for
>> trouble.
>> My church is adamantly against same sex unions, but I personally wonder
>> about the justification for banning them as the people involved would be
>> living a gay lifestyle to begin with and changing the legal status 
>> wouldn't
>> affect anyone else -- I understand wanting the name to be different: 
>> "civil
>> union" as opposed to marriage.  My friends at church say they oppose any
>> kind of union as that would put them in a contract that would be harder to
>> get out of should they change their mindset, even if the contract was not
>> deemed a "marriage".
>> Is this a can of worms that we don't want to open on this list?
>> I have to teach a lesson on marriage this coming sunday so am thinking 
>> about
>> it in case one of the kids brings it up...
>> Take care.
>> --le
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "BreakPoint" <prison_fellowship at informz.net>
>> Subject: BreakPoint: So Much for Tolerance, 11/13/08
>>
>> ***************************
>> BREAKPOINT DAILY TRANSCRIPT
>> ***************************
>>
>> So Much for Tolerance
>> The Aftermath of Prop 8
>>
>> November 13, 2008
>>
>> The ad ran all over California on Election Day -- and
>> surely sets a record for anti-religious bigotry. Two
>> clean-cut young men knock at the door of a lesbian
>> couple. The men identify themselves as Mormon
>> missionaries. "We're here to take away your rights,"
>> they announce.
>>
>> They snatch the women's wedding rings off their fingers
>> and ransack their home. When they find the couple's
>> marriage license, they rip it in half. "Say no to a
>> church taking over your government," the voiceover
>> says. "Vote 'no' on Proposition 8."
>>
>> Despite such vicious attacks, California's Proposition
>> 8, which defined marriage as between one man and one
>> woman, passed. But the assaults on churches have just
>> begun.
>>
>> Two days after the election, 2,000 homosexual
>> protesters surrounded a Mormon temple in Los Angeles
>> chanting "Mormon scum." Protesters picketed Rick
>> Warren's Saddleback Church, holding signs reading
>> "Purpose-Driven Hate." Calvary Chapel in Chino Hills
>> was spray painted. Church members' cars have been
>> vandalized, and at least two Christians were assaulted.
>> Protesters even hurled racial epithets at
>> African-Americans because African-Americans voted
>> overwhelmingly in favor of traditional marriage.
>>
>> This is an outrage. What hypocrisy from those who spend
>> all of their time preaching tolerance to the rest of
>> us!  How dare they threaten and attack political
>> opponents? We live a democratic country, not a banana
>> republic ruled by thugs.
>>
>> Clearly, Christians need to redouble their efforts to
>> help people understand what marriage is all about. In
>> Los Angeles, when protesters gathered at the Cathedral
>> of Our Lady of the Angels, they chanted, "What Would
>> Jesus say?"
>>
>> That's a good question, and the Church should not
>> hesitate to answer it. What would Jesus say about
>> same-sex "marriage?"
>>
>> To get to the answer, let's first understand the
>> meaning and purpose of marriage. In his book THE CLASH
>> OF ORTHODOXIES, Princeton philosopher Robert George
>> writes that matrimonial law reflects a moral
>> judgment -- that marriage is inherently heterosexual,
>> monogamous, and permanent -- a union of one man and one
>> woman.
>>
>> This view reflects the biblical and natural law
>> understanding that marriage is a two-in-one-flesh
>> communion of persons. This communion is consummated by
>> sexual acts that are reproductive in nature. They unite
>> the spouses as a single procreative unit -- an organic
>> unity achieved even by infertile couples. Only a mated
>> pair can be a complete organism capable of human
>> procreation.
>>
>> Since homosexual acts have no relationship to
>> procreation and cannot unite persons organically, these
>> acts cannot be marital -- which means relationships
>> integrated around them cannot be marriages.
>>
>> We've got a winsome case, but we've got to get better
>> equipped to explain it to our neighbors. You could
>> start by reading THE CLASH OF ORTHODOXIES and other
>> material available on our website. And then, start
>> discussing these issues in your small groups, Sunday
>> school classes, and youth groups.
>>
>> By protecting traditional marriage, we aren't taking
>> away anybody's rights. We are simply upholding the
>> framework of society's most basic institution, the loss
>> of which would irreparably damage our families and our
>> society.
>>
>>
>> Get links to further information on today's topic
>> (http://www.breakpoint.org/listingarticle.asp?ID=10520)
>>
>>
>>
>> *********************
>> ADDITIONAL INFORMATION
>> *********************
>>
>> CENTURIONS
>> --------------------------
>> Turn the world right side up. Learn more about the 2009
>> Centurions Program
>> (http://www.breakpoint.org/generic.asp?ID=2748) and how
>> you can apply to study Christian worldview with Chuck
>> Colson!
>>
>>
>> WILBERFORCE WEEKEND
>> --------------------------
>> Register now
>> (http://www.breakpoint.org/generic.asp?ID=81) for the
>> 2009 Wilberforce Weekend Conference, January 16-18 in
>> Lansdowne, Va.
>>
>>
>> RECOMMENDED RESOURCE
>> --------------------------
>> Charles Colson on Politics and the Christian Faith
>> (https://www.pfm.org/storeitem.asp?ID=7712) (DVD)
>>
>>
>> ONLINE FEATURE
>> ---------------------------
>> All Things Examined: "Teaching the Controversy:
>> Students Deserve No Less"
>> (http://www.breakpoint.org/listingarticle.asp?ID=10479)
>> by Regis Nicoll
>>
>>
>> THE POINT
>> ---------------------------
>> . Seeking Forgiveness, Online
>> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/the-apology-pro.html)
>> . Obama Reality Check
>> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/please-no-obama.html)
>> . The Modern Holocaust?
>> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/striped-pajamas.html)
>> . Don't Forego the Foreclosed
>> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/the-point-rad-7.html)
>> . Words We Shouldn't of Used
>> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2008/11/fun-with-words.html)
>>
>> Listen to Today's Point Radio Broadcast
>> (http://thepoint.breakpoint.org)
>>
>>
>>
>> For printer-friendly version, simply visit
>> www.breakpoint.org
>> (http://www.informz.net/z/cjUucD9taT01MDc0NzAmcD0xJnU9MTAxNjQ1NTQ0JmxpPTE4ODMzODk/index.html)
>> and click on Today's Commentary. The printer-friendly
>> link is on the left-hand column.
>>
>> Copyright (c) 2008 Prison Fellowship
>>
>> THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN
>> FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
>>
>>
>>
>> "BreakPoint" is a daily commentary on news and trends
>> from a Christian perspective. Heard on more than 1000
>> radio outlets nationwide, "BreakPoint" transcripts are
>> also available on the Internet.
>>
>> BreakPoint is the worldview ministry of PFM (formerly
>> Prison Fellowship Ministries): 44180 Riverside Parkway,
>> Lansdowne, VA 20176.
>>
>> Subscribe to BreakPoint
>> (http://msg1svc.net/static/pfm/leadcapture/subscribe.cfm?site=BP)
>> .
>>
>> You are receiving this message as a subscriber to
>> BreakPoint's daily newsletter.
>>
>>
>> Powered by Informz for iMIS
>> http://www.informzforimis.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> Faith-talk:
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>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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From braille at sbcglobal.net  Fri Nov 14 11:22:33 2008
From: braille at sbcglobal.net (Mary Donahue)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 05:22:33 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Two Prayer Requests
Message-ID: <000301c9464b$4b42cb90$220110ac@your96fc0aa548>

Good morning everyone,

    Today, I have not one, but two prayer requests. The first is a reminder 
to pray for Vivian Seki, my supervisor, as she is having heel surgery this 
morning at San Antonio Methodist Ambulatory Hospital. She is supposed to be 
at the hospital at 6:45, and the surgery itself is at 8:00. She plans to be 
off from work on Monday and Tuesday, and come back on Wednesday. So, please 
pray for a successful surgery and a speedy recovery for Vivian. I will keep 
you posted periodically on her progress afterwards.

    The second request is for safe travel for my parents, as they are 
driving from Wisconsin to Scottsdale, Arizona, where they have their winter 
home. I encouraged them to take their time going there on account of Dad's 
health. Dad is supposed to see the doctor there next Friday and possibly 
schedule his bladder surgery. That's about all I know on my parents, but if 
you would please pray for a safe trip for them, that would be great.

    In the meantime, have a blessed day and a great weekend ahead.

Mary Donahue





From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Fri Nov 14 12:23:09 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 07:23:09 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Another Thought
In-Reply-To: <BAY113-DS6690B968C93E90466EC18EB160@phx.gbl>
References: <84AA41E1A0EA4958A2E33AB534A998BA@your4dacd0ea75>
	<4383d01d0811131438s31d1796hd34703b81b498648@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY113-DS6690B968C93E90466EC18EB160@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811140423s4c6f407dg238a3b20dd70f4a7@mail.gmail.com>

I don't know about that.  We can't simply use propositions like that
in California to ban abortion, so the Obama administration better put
a ban on prop 8.  I'm serious.
Beth

On 11/13/08, Barbara Hammel <poetlori8 at msn.com> wrote:
> It would be unconstitutional to ban Prop 8.  The people have spoken and it's
> wrong to use the courts to overrule what the people have spoken for.
> Barbara
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 4:38 PM
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Another Thought
>
>> They might have, but as Everet said in a previous e-mail, the story
>> was just a political *ad* against prop 8.  Now, I hope they are going
>> to ban prop 8 in the Obama camp because it's wrong, and we need to be
>> considerate of others, and if a Christian wants to rob somebody of a
>> wedding ring and a iece of paper, let 'em do it.  If the couple loves
>> each other, they can love each other all they want.
>> Beth
>>
>> On 11/13/08, Julie C. Vogt <jcvogt at pressenter.com> wrote:
>>> If some one pounded on my door and said they were there to confiscate my
>>> wedding rings because my marriage was unconstitutional, they'd better
>>> have a
>>> police officer with them.  A Mormon is a Mormon is a Mormon.  A Christian
>>>
>>> is
>>> a Christian is a Christian.  And a robber is a robber is a robber.  I
>>> hope
>>> they made it to the nearest pawn shop to pick their rings up, even if
>>> they
>>> had to buy them back again.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human
>>> soul," American Humorist Mark Twain
>>>
>>> "An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth Jernigan,
>>> Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind
>>>
>>> "A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their
>>> contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
>>>
>>> "Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>>>
>>> "No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push,
>>> 1976.
>>>
>>> "With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can be
>>> reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic," the Late
>>> Dr.
>>> Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation of the Blind.
>>>
>>> Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>



From poetlori8 at msn.com  Fri Nov 14 12:48:42 2008
From: poetlori8 at msn.com (Barbara Hammel)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 06:48:42 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] asking for prayer
Message-ID: <BAY113-DS466A7E567BD6667E46C60EB160@phx.gbl>

Since I am new to this list, most of you may not know that my husband and I adopted twin boys from China three years ago.  They are blind and on the autism spectrum of disorders.
Well, constipation has been an ongoing occurrence with both of them.  Jesse did have double hernias that were taken care of in late summer.  But now Paul spent last weekend in the hospital to clear him out but he is not back to normal.
The request is that we and the doctors would have wisdom as to how to help this child get back to his bright sunny self.  He has missed quite a bit of school in the last few weeks.
And yes, should anyone suggest, they are already on Miralax which is a natural stool softener.
Barbara

From poetlori8 at msn.com  Fri Nov 14 12:52:56 2008
From: poetlori8 at msn.com (Barbara Hammel)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 06:52:56 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Another Thought
In-Reply-To: <84AA41E1A0EA4958A2E33AB534A998BA@your4dacd0ea75><4383d01d0811131438s31d1796hd34703b81b498648@mail.gmail.com><BAY113-DS6690B968C93E90466EC18EB160@phx.gbl>
	<4383d01d0811140423s4c6f407dg238a3b20dd70f4a7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <84AA41E1A0EA4958A2E33AB534A998BA@your4dacd0ea75><4383d01d0811131438s31d1796hd34703b81b498648@mail.gmail.com><BAY113-DS6690B968C93E90466EC18EB160@phx.gbl>
	<4383d01d0811140423s4c6f407dg238a3b20dd70f4a7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY113-DS695252DCC48A976280C41EB160@phx.gbl>

I do believe it was like an amendment to their constitution or something. 
When things like that are put on ballots for folks to vote on, the powers 
that be are letting the people speak for what they want.
Barbara

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 6:23 AM
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Another Thought

> I don't know about that.  We can't simply use propositions like that
> in California to ban abortion, so the Obama administration better put
> a ban on prop 8.  I'm serious.
> Beth
>
> On 11/13/08, Barbara Hammel <poetlori8 at msn.com> wrote:
>> It would be unconstitutional to ban Prop 8.  The people have spoken and 
>> it's
>> wrong to use the courts to overrule what the people have spoken for.
>> Barbara
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 4:38 PM
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Another Thought
>>
>>> They might have, but as Everet said in a previous e-mail, the story
>>> was just a political *ad* against prop 8.  Now, I hope they are going
>>> to ban prop 8 in the Obama camp because it's wrong, and we need to be
>>> considerate of others, and if a Christian wants to rob somebody of a
>>> wedding ring and a iece of paper, let 'em do it.  If the couple loves
>>> each other, they can love each other all they want.
>>> Beth
>>>
>>> On 11/13/08, Julie C. Vogt <jcvogt at pressenter.com> wrote:
>>>> If some one pounded on my door and said they were there to confiscate 
>>>> my
>>>> wedding rings because my marriage was unconstitutional, they'd better
>>>> have a
>>>> police officer with them.  A Mormon is a Mormon is a Mormon.  A 
>>>> Christian
>>>>
>>>> is
>>>> a Christian is a Christian.  And a robber is a robber is a robber.  I
>>>> hope
>>>> they made it to the nearest pawn shop to pick their rings up, even if
>>>> they
>>>> had to buy them back again.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human
>>>> soul," American Humorist Mark Twain
>>>>
>>>> "An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth 
>>>> Jernigan,
>>>> Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind
>>>>
>>>> "A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their
>>>> contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
>>>>
>>>> "Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>>>>
>>>> "No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push,
>>>> 1976.
>>>>
>>>> "With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can be
>>>> reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic," the 
>>>> Late
>>>> Dr.
>>>> Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation of the Blind.
>>>>
>>>> Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
> 



From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Fri Nov 14 14:03:20 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 08:03:20 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Another Thought
References: <84AA41E1A0EA4958A2E33AB534A998BA@your4dacd0ea75><4383d01d0811131438s31d1796hd34703b81b498648@mail.gmail.com><BAY113-DS6690B968C93E90466EC18EB160@phx.gbl>
	<4383d01d0811140423s4c6f407dg238a3b20dd70f4a7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C6C2A6D491DA44CBBBC57A3F6B71BCF0@Alan>

She is right.  As it is, Obama cannot interfere in a decision made on
A: the state level and 
B: a decision made by the voters of the state.

Obama banning Prop. 8 would be an abuse of his powers.


+-+-+-

   For he who has died has been freed from sin. 
 Romans 6:7
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 6:23 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Another Thought


>I don't know about that.  We can't simply use propositions like that
> in California to ban abortion, so the Obama administration better put
> a ban on prop 8.  I'm serious.
> Beth
> 
> On 11/13/08, Barbara Hammel <poetlori8 at msn.com> wrote:
>> It would be unconstitutional to ban Prop 8.  The people have spoken and it's
>> wrong to use the courts to overrule what the people have spoken for.
>> Barbara
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 4:38 PM
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Another Thought
>>
>>> They might have, but as Everet said in a previous e-mail, the story
>>> was just a political *ad* against prop 8.  Now, I hope they are going
>>> to ban prop 8 in the Obama camp because it's wrong, and we need to be
>>> considerate of others, and if a Christian wants to rob somebody of a
>>> wedding ring and a iece of paper, let 'em do it.  If the couple loves
>>> each other, they can love each other all they want.
>>> Beth
>>>
>>> On 11/13/08, Julie C. Vogt <jcvogt at pressenter.com> wrote:
>>>> If some one pounded on my door and said they were there to confiscate my
>>>> wedding rings because my marriage was unconstitutional, they'd better
>>>> have a
>>>> police officer with them.  A Mormon is a Mormon is a Mormon.  A Christian
>>>>
>>>> is
>>>> a Christian is a Christian.  And a robber is a robber is a robber.  I
>>>> hope
>>>> they made it to the nearest pawn shop to pick their rings up, even if
>>>> they
>>>> had to buy them back again.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human
>>>> soul," American Humorist Mark Twain
>>>>
>>>> "An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth Jernigan,
>>>> Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind
>>>>
>>>> "A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their
>>>> contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
>>>>
>>>> "Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>>>>
>>>> "No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push,
>>>> 1976.
>>>>
>>>> "With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can be
>>>> reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic," the Late
>>>> Dr.
>>>> Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation of the Blind.
>>>>
>>>> Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
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From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Fri Nov 14 15:07:42 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 10:07:42 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Another Thought
In-Reply-To: <BAY113-DS695252DCC48A976280C41EB160@phx.gbl>
References: <84AA41E1A0EA4958A2E33AB534A998BA@your4dacd0ea75>
	<4383d01d0811131438s31d1796hd34703b81b498648@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY113-DS6690B968C93E90466EC18EB160@phx.gbl>
	<4383d01d0811140423s4c6f407dg238a3b20dd70f4a7@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY113-DS695252DCC48A976280C41EB160@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811140707l5eb3aa7sd4bf3a6679afcd67@mail.gmail.com>

So what if the people want to amend the constitution to, say, ban
blind people from having children?  Just a thought.
Beth

On 11/14/08, Barbara Hammel <poetlori8 at msn.com> wrote:
> I do believe it was like an amendment to their constitution or something.
> When things like that are put on ballots for folks to vote on, the powers
> that be are letting the people speak for what they want.
> Barbara
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 6:23 AM
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Another Thought
>
>> I don't know about that.  We can't simply use propositions like that
>> in California to ban abortion, so the Obama administration better put
>> a ban on prop 8.  I'm serious.
>> Beth
>>
>> On 11/13/08, Barbara Hammel <poetlori8 at msn.com> wrote:
>>> It would be unconstitutional to ban Prop 8.  The people have spoken and
>>> it's
>>> wrong to use the courts to overrule what the people have spoken for.
>>> Barbara
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>> Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 4:38 PM
>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Another Thought
>>>
>>>> They might have, but as Everet said in a previous e-mail, the story
>>>> was just a political *ad* against prop 8.  Now, I hope they are going
>>>> to ban prop 8 in the Obama camp because it's wrong, and we need to be
>>>> considerate of others, and if a Christian wants to rob somebody of a
>>>> wedding ring and a iece of paper, let 'em do it.  If the couple loves
>>>> each other, they can love each other all they want.
>>>> Beth
>>>>
>>>> On 11/13/08, Julie C. Vogt <jcvogt at pressenter.com> wrote:
>>>>> If some one pounded on my door and said they were there to confiscate
>>>>> my
>>>>> wedding rings because my marriage was unconstitutional, they'd better
>>>>> have a
>>>>> police officer with them.  A Mormon is a Mormon is a Mormon.  A
>>>>> Christian
>>>>>
>>>>> is
>>>>> a Christian is a Christian.  And a robber is a robber is a robber.  I
>>>>> hope
>>>>> they made it to the nearest pawn shop to pick their rings up, even if
>>>>> they
>>>>> had to buy them back again.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human
>>>>> soul," American Humorist Mark Twain
>>>>>
>>>>> "An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth
>>>>> Jernigan,
>>>>> Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind
>>>>>
>>>>> "A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their
>>>>> contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
>>>>>
>>>>> "Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>>>>>
>>>>> "No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push,
>>>>> 1976.
>>>>>
>>>>> "With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can be
>>>>> reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic," the
>>>>> Late
>>>>> Dr.
>>>>> Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation of the Blind.
>>>>>
>>>>> Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>



From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Fri Nov 14 15:12:20 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 10:12:20 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] asking for prayer
In-Reply-To: <BAY113-DS466A7E567BD6667E46C60EB160@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY113-DS466A7E567BD6667E46C60EB160@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811140712p16845a3ekb4209eee6d64249@mail.gmail.com>

Well, I'll pray for them.  That's nice you've adopted twtin boys from
China who are blind.  You would think the Chinese wouldn't allow that
to happenh because they don't want their blind outside of China or
they don't want their blind to see the world.  Anyway, I'd like to
adopt special needs children myself if I get married.  Good luck.
Beth

On 11/14/08, Barbara Hammel <poetlori8 at msn.com> wrote:
> Since I am new to this list, most of you may not know that my husband and I
> adopted twin boys from China three years ago.  They are blind and on the
> autism spectrum of disorders.
> Well, constipation has been an ongoing occurrence with both of them.  Jesse
> did have double hernias that were taken care of in late summer.  But now
> Paul spent last weekend in the hospital to clear him out but he is not back
> to normal.
> The request is that we and the doctors would have wisdom as to how to help
> this child get back to his bright sunny self.  He has missed quite a bit of
> school in the last few weeks.
> And yes, should anyone suggest, they are already on Miralax which is a
> natural stool softener.
> Barbara
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>



From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Fri Nov 14 15:19:16 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 09:19:16 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Another Thought
References: <84AA41E1A0EA4958A2E33AB534A998BA@your4dacd0ea75><4383d01d0811131438s31d1796hd34703b81b498648@mail.gmail.com><BAY113-DS6690B968C93E90466EC18EB160@phx.gbl><4383d01d0811140423s4c6f407dg238a3b20dd70f4a7@mail.gmail.com><BAY113-DS695252DCC48A976280C41EB160@phx.gbl>
	<4383d01d0811140707l5eb3aa7sd4bf3a6679afcd67@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B456F5600D9A4BBBA5E413DE71CA8BBE@Alan>

Why do you keep comparing homosexuality and blindness?  You are comparing apples and oranges.  Homosexuality is a choice, blindness isn't. 

You keep using the same comparison, but it doesn't work.  Homosexuality and blindness are two totally different things. 
+-+-+-


   O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! 
Psalms 8:9

~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 9:07 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Another Thought


> So what if the people want to amend the constitution to, say, ban
> blind people from having children?  Just a thought.
> Beth
> 
> On 11/14/08, Barbara Hammel <poetlori8 at msn.com> wrote:
>> I do believe it was like an amendment to their constitution or something.
>> When things like that are put on ballots for folks to vote on, the powers
>> that be are letting the people speak for what they want.
>> Barbara
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 6:23 AM
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Another Thought
>>
>>> I don't know about that.  We can't simply use propositions like that
>>> in California to ban abortion, so the Obama administration better put
>>> a ban on prop 8.  I'm serious.
>>> Beth
>>>
>>> On 11/13/08, Barbara Hammel <poetlori8 at msn.com> wrote:
>>>> It would be unconstitutional to ban Prop 8.  The people have spoken and
>>>> it's
>>>> wrong to use the courts to overrule what the people have spoken for.
>>>> Barbara
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 4:38 PM
>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Another Thought
>>>>
>>>>> They might have, but as Everet said in a previous e-mail, the story
>>>>> was just a political *ad* against prop 8.  Now, I hope they are going
>>>>> to ban prop 8 in the Obama camp because it's wrong, and we need to be
>>>>> considerate of others, and if a Christian wants to rob somebody of a
>>>>> wedding ring and a iece of paper, let 'em do it.  If the couple loves
>>>>> each other, they can love each other all they want.
>>>>> Beth
>>>>>
>>>>> On 11/13/08, Julie C. Vogt <jcvogt at pressenter.com> wrote:
>>>>>> If some one pounded on my door and said they were there to confiscate
>>>>>> my
>>>>>> wedding rings because my marriage was unconstitutional, they'd better
>>>>>> have a
>>>>>> police officer with them.  A Mormon is a Mormon is a Mormon.  A
>>>>>> Christian
>>>>>>
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> a Christian is a Christian.  And a robber is a robber is a robber.  I
>>>>>> hope
>>>>>> they made it to the nearest pawn shop to pick their rings up, even if
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> had to buy them back again.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human
>>>>>> soul," American Humorist Mark Twain
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth
>>>>>> Jernigan,
>>>>>> Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their
>>>>>> contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push,
>>>>>> 1976.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can be
>>>>>> reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic," the
>>>>>> Late
>>>>>> Dr.
>>>>>> Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation of the Blind.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.3/1787 - Release Date: 11/14/2008 8:32 AM




From poetlori8 at msn.com  Fri Nov 14 15:22:52 2008
From: poetlori8 at msn.com (Barbara Hammel)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 09:22:52 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Another Thought
In-Reply-To: <84AA41E1A0EA4958A2E33AB534A998BA@your4dacd0ea75><4383d01d0811131438s31d1796hd34703b81b498648@mail.gmail.com><BAY113-DS6690B968C93E90466EC18EB160@phx.gbl><4383d01d0811140423s4c6f407dg238a3b20dd70f4a7@mail.gmail.com><BAY113-DS695252DCC48A976280C41EB160@phx.gbl>
	<4383d01d0811140707l5eb3aa7sd4bf3a6679afcd67@mail.gmail.com>
References: <84AA41E1A0EA4958A2E33AB534A998BA@your4dacd0ea75><4383d01d0811131438s31d1796hd34703b81b498648@mail.gmail.com><BAY113-DS6690B968C93E90466EC18EB160@phx.gbl><4383d01d0811140423s4c6f407dg238a3b20dd70f4a7@mail.gmail.com><BAY113-DS695252DCC48A976280C41EB160@phx.gbl>
	<4383d01d0811140707l5eb3aa7sd4bf3a6679afcd67@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY113-DS5259D6D993FDD78C00DDAEB160@phx.gbl>

I think that's just silly talk.

It's an issue that no one really cares about.  Stupid people have children 
all the time so how can they be any worse than a blind person or a deaf 
person?  There may be many who are willfully killing children but I can't 
imagine a mandate on who can't have them.
Barbara

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 9:07 AM
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Another Thought

> So what if the people want to amend the constitution to, say, ban
> blind people from having children?  Just a thought.
> Beth
>
> On 11/14/08, Barbara Hammel <poetlori8 at msn.com> wrote:
>> I do believe it was like an amendment to their constitution or something.
>> When things like that are put on ballots for folks to vote on, the powers
>> that be are letting the people speak for what they want.
>> Barbara
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 6:23 AM
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Another Thought
>>
>>> I don't know about that.  We can't simply use propositions like that
>>> in California to ban abortion, so the Obama administration better put
>>> a ban on prop 8.  I'm serious.
>>> Beth
>>>
>>> On 11/13/08, Barbara Hammel <poetlori8 at msn.com> wrote:
>>>> It would be unconstitutional to ban Prop 8.  The people have spoken and
>>>> it's
>>>> wrong to use the courts to overrule what the people have spoken for.
>>>> Barbara
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 4:38 PM
>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Another Thought
>>>>
>>>>> They might have, but as Everet said in a previous e-mail, the story
>>>>> was just a political *ad* against prop 8.  Now, I hope they are going
>>>>> to ban prop 8 in the Obama camp because it's wrong, and we need to be
>>>>> considerate of others, and if a Christian wants to rob somebody of a
>>>>> wedding ring and a iece of paper, let 'em do it.  If the couple loves
>>>>> each other, they can love each other all they want.
>>>>> Beth
>>>>>
>>>>> On 11/13/08, Julie C. Vogt <jcvogt at pressenter.com> wrote:
>>>>>> If some one pounded on my door and said they were there to confiscate
>>>>>> my
>>>>>> wedding rings because my marriage was unconstitutional, they'd better
>>>>>> have a
>>>>>> police officer with them.  A Mormon is a Mormon is a Mormon.  A
>>>>>> Christian
>>>>>>
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> a Christian is a Christian.  And a robber is a robber is a robber.  I
>>>>>> hope
>>>>>> they made it to the nearest pawn shop to pick their rings up, even if
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> had to buy them back again.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a 
>>>>>> human
>>>>>> soul," American Humorist Mark Twain
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth
>>>>>> Jernigan,
>>>>>> Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their
>>>>>> contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push,
>>>>>> 1976.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can be
>>>>>> reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic," the
>>>>>> Late
>>>>>> Dr.
>>>>>> Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation of the Blind.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
> 



From poetlori8 at msn.com  Fri Nov 14 15:47:42 2008
From: poetlori8 at msn.com (Barbara Hammel)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 09:47:42 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] asking for prayer
In-Reply-To: <BAY113-DS466A7E567BD6667E46C60EB160@phx.gbl>
	<4383d01d0811140712p16845a3ekb4209eee6d64249@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY113-DS466A7E567BD6667E46C60EB160@phx.gbl>
	<4383d01d0811140712p16845a3ekb4209eee6d64249@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY113-DS5F00916BEFABE037C521CEB160@phx.gbl>

On the contrary, they don't want their blind themselves.  I know, some 
parents do keep them, but many don't.
In fact, I'll tell you the whole story.

We waited for a year to adopt domestically but because of my being blind and 
my husband being much older than me, we were never chosen by a birth 
mother--or our portfolio was never shown.  That's neither here nor there now 
because it's the past.  Only the workers know for sure and maybe they'll 
have to answer one day.

So September of 04 I called to check on our status and they asked if we'd 
thought about going international.  (Of course, blind parents would make 
excellent parents for a blind child.)  We said yes we could do that.  They 
told us about a little boy in Hong Kong who was four years old.  We saw 
video and decided that autism just might be more than we could handle so 
said no to him.  While we were waiting to hear about another four-year-old 
boy in the Phillipines, a family wanted one of the ladies to go with them to 
China to help them through the process.

While she was there, in November, she asked the Chinese lady if there were 
any blind children.  You see, there is a list of children of promise that 
some Asian countries list their special needs children on.  China does not 
put blind children on this list because they figure no one will want them.

The lady checked and very shortly reported to the American that they did 
have two two-year-olds.  And, yes, they were twins.  I had always wanted 
twins.

We got all our paperwork done by the first of January and miraculously the 
twins were okayed for just us.  If they'd gone on the regular list they'd 
have been there for anyone.

Our dossier got to China, after taking only three weeks to translate it, and 
arrived just before the New Year which is a fifteen day holiday.  At the end 
of April we finally heard that we'd been approved.

On our seventh anniversary we walked in to the adoption center in Kunming to 
receive our children.

And as you saw in an earlier post, ironically, the thing I didn't want I 
ended up with double.

I know God does not give us more than we can handle but for the past three 
years this family has barely been able to keep our noses out of the water. 
I just keep praying that one day we'll look back on these days and not 
believe how awful they were.  And maybe they just seem that way because for 
the first few months all both did was scream.  Then this past January Jesse 
screamed nonstop for six months because it took that long to find the 
hernias.  Praise be for their teacher who discovered one.  Then two months 
later Paul started screaming and hurting anyone who came near him.

This time I think God gave us a bite that was too big to swallow.  But He 
knows what He's doing and no matter how little or much I teach them, as long 
as we try our best to love them the best way we know how, God will work His 
plan with them.  I just wish He would enlighten me.

Barbara

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 9:12 AM
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] asking for prayer

> Well, I'll pray for them.  That's nice you've adopted twtin boys from
> China who are blind.  You would think the Chinese wouldn't allow that
> to happenh because they don't want their blind outside of China or
> they don't want their blind to see the world.  Anyway, I'd like to
> adopt special needs children myself if I get married.  Good luck.
> Beth
>
> On 11/14/08, Barbara Hammel <poetlori8 at msn.com> wrote:
>> Since I am new to this list, most of you may not know that my husband and 
>> I
>> adopted twin boys from China three years ago.  They are blind and on the
>> autism spectrum of disorders.
>> Well, constipation has been an ongoing occurrence with both of them. 
>> Jesse
>> did have double hernias that were taken care of in late summer.  But now
>> Paul spent last weekend in the hospital to clear him out but he is not 
>> back
>> to normal.
>> The request is that we and the doctors would have wisdom as to how to 
>> help
>> this child get back to his bright sunny self.  He has missed quite a bit 
>> of
>> school in the last few weeks.
>> And yes, should anyone suggest, they are already on Miralax which is a
>> natural stool softener.
>> Barbara
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
> 



From poetlori8 at msn.com  Fri Nov 14 15:56:07 2008
From: poetlori8 at msn.com (Barbara Hammel)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 09:56:07 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Another Thought
In-Reply-To: <84AA41E1A0EA4958A2E33AB534A998BA@your4dacd0ea75><4383d01d0811131438s31d1796hd34703b81b498648@mail.gmail.com><BAY113-DS6690B968C93E90466EC18EB160@phx.gbl><4383d01d0811140423s4c6f407dg238a3b20dd70f4a7@mail.gmail.com><BAY113-DS695252DCC48A976280C41EB160@phx.gbl><4383d01d0811140707l5eb3aa7sd4bf3a6679afcd67@mail.gmail.com>
	<B456F5600D9A4BBBA5E413DE71CA8BBE@Alan>
References: <84AA41E1A0EA4958A2E33AB534A998BA@your4dacd0ea75><4383d01d0811131438s31d1796hd34703b81b498648@mail.gmail.com><BAY113-DS6690B968C93E90466EC18EB160@phx.gbl><4383d01d0811140423s4c6f407dg238a3b20dd70f4a7@mail.gmail.com><BAY113-DS695252DCC48A976280C41EB160@phx.gbl><4383d01d0811140707l5eb3aa7sd4bf3a6679afcd67@mail.gmail.com>
	<B456F5600D9A4BBBA5E413DE71CA8BBE@Alan>
Message-ID: <BAY113-DS742D8443B1B7B5A3FE2AEEB160@phx.gbl>

The current younger generation has been brainwashed to believe that one is 
born that way.  They do not understand the difference between nature and 
nurture.
Many have raised children in the name of tolerance so much so that there is 
no longer a value system.  God has no place in this society any more. 
Unbeknownst to many He has gotten us this far but they believe it was on the 
backs of others.  Even in the 80s I was very disappointed in what my history 
books were teaching.  Why must we always have new revisions of history 
books?  Just like why must we keep rewriting the Bible?  Are we so stupid 
nowadays that we can't comprehend the older versions?
Barbara


--------------------------------------------------
From: "Alan Wheeler" <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 9:19 AM
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Another Thought

> Why do you keep comparing homosexuality and blindness?  You are comparing 
> apples and oranges.  Homosexuality is a choice, blindness isn't.
>
> You keep using the same comparison, but it doesn't work.  Homosexuality 
> and blindness are two totally different things.
> +-+-+-
>
>
>   O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!
> Psalms 8:9
>
> ~~~
>
> Alan D Wheeler
> awheeler at neb.rr.com
> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
> Skype: redwheel1
> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at 
> www.theqonline.net
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 9:07 AM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Another Thought
>
>
>> So what if the people want to amend the constitution to, say, ban
>> blind people from having children?  Just a thought.
>> Beth
>>
>> On 11/14/08, Barbara Hammel <poetlori8 at msn.com> wrote:
>>> I do believe it was like an amendment to their constitution or 
>>> something.
>>> When things like that are put on ballots for folks to vote on, the 
>>> powers
>>> that be are letting the people speak for what they want.
>>> Barbara
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>> Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 6:23 AM
>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Another Thought
>>>
>>>> I don't know about that.  We can't simply use propositions like that
>>>> in California to ban abortion, so the Obama administration better put
>>>> a ban on prop 8.  I'm serious.
>>>> Beth
>>>>
>>>> On 11/13/08, Barbara Hammel <poetlori8 at msn.com> wrote:
>>>>> It would be unconstitutional to ban Prop 8.  The people have spoken 
>>>>> and
>>>>> it's
>>>>> wrong to use the courts to overrule what the people have spoken for.
>>>>> Barbara
>>>>>
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 4:38 PM
>>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Another Thought
>>>>>
>>>>>> They might have, but as Everet said in a previous e-mail, the story
>>>>>> was just a political *ad* against prop 8.  Now, I hope they are going
>>>>>> to ban prop 8 in the Obama camp because it's wrong, and we need to be
>>>>>> considerate of others, and if a Christian wants to rob somebody of a
>>>>>> wedding ring and a iece of paper, let 'em do it.  If the couple loves
>>>>>> each other, they can love each other all they want.
>>>>>> Beth
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/13/08, Julie C. Vogt <jcvogt at pressenter.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> If some one pounded on my door and said they were there to 
>>>>>>> confiscate
>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>> wedding rings because my marriage was unconstitutional, they'd 
>>>>>>> better
>>>>>>> have a
>>>>>>> police officer with them.  A Mormon is a Mormon is a Mormon.  A
>>>>>>> Christian
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> a Christian is a Christian.  And a robber is a robber is a robber. 
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> hope
>>>>>>> they made it to the nearest pawn shop to pick their rings up, even 
>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>> had to buy them back again.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a 
>>>>>>> human
>>>>>>> soul," American Humorist Mark Twain
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth
>>>>>>> Jernigan,
>>>>>>> Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and 
>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>> contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation 
>>>>>>> Push,
>>>>>>> 1976.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can 
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic," the
>>>>>>> Late
>>>>>>> Dr.
>>>>>>> Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation of the Blind.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
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> _______________________________________________
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
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> 



From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Fri Nov 14 16:16:16 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 10:16:16 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] asking for prayer
References: <BAY113-DS466A7E567BD6667E46C60EB160@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <73730CC2B3654884BE7B8AAA15028103@your4dacd0ea75>

Will pray.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Barbara Hammel" <poetlori8 at msn.com>
To: "for the discussion of faith and religion Faith-talk" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 6:48 AM
Subject: [Faith-talk] asking for prayer


> Since I am new to this list, most of you may not know that my husband and 
> I adopted twin boys from China three years ago.  They are blind and on the 
> autism spectrum of disorders.
> Well, constipation has been an ongoing occurrence with both of them. 
> Jesse did have double hernias that were taken care of in late summer.  But 
> now Paul spent last weekend in the hospital to clear him out but he is not 
> back to normal.
> The request is that we and the doctors would have wisdom as to how to help 
> this child get back to his bright sunny self.  He has missed quite a bit 
> of school in the last few weeks.
> And yes, should anyone suggest, they are already on Miralax which is a 
> natural stool softener.
> Barbara
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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8:32 AM




From everettg at successfuladaptations.com  Fri Nov 14 16:38:27 2008
From: everettg at successfuladaptations.com (Everett Gavel)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 11:38:27 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Mandates On Who Can and Can't Have Children?
References: <84AA41E1A0EA4958A2E33AB534A998BA@your4dacd0ea75><4383d01d0811131438s31d1796hd34703b81b498648@mail.gmail.com><BAY113-DS6690B968C93E90466EC18EB160@phx.gbl><4383d01d0811140423s4c6f407dg238a3b20dd70f4a7@mail.gmail.com><BAY113-DS695252DCC48A976280C41EB160@phx.gbl><4383d01d0811140707l5eb3aa7sd4bf3a6679afcd67@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY113-DS5259D6D993FDD78C00DDAEB160@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <000e01c94677$6bb92c80$0f8cdd45@IBMB7D6F383D44>

"Can't imagine a mandate on who can't have them?"  Ah, 
now we're getting into deep territory here. And it has 
everything to do with faith and blindness, so no 
worries there. Regarding this thing on telling blind 
people they can't be parents or have children or 
whatever, there are some points to consider.

*  In some other countries, China for example, I 
believe there are already mandates on how many children 
can be had.  No, not on blind people, but on everyone.

*  There are also those leaders in our own USA that 
believe there should be such limits on people here.  If 
you give thought to it, it's not all that far from 
telling, next, who can or cannot have children. 
Thankfully we have not yet openly made a practice of 
limiting how many children each family can have.  But 
they are already doing so in other countries.  And 
again, it's not so far fetched or so far beyond such a 
decree, to begin telling various groupings of people 
they can or cannot have children.

*  In this country, they are already giving the option 
of aborting babies with certain genetics, such as the 
likelihood of, what is it, Downs Syndrome, I think? 
How different is that, really?  It's us, here in 
America, already saying that people with disabilities - 
or at least, certain disabilities - don't deserve to 
live.

*  How much farther do we have to step (I say step as 
it's not much of a jump) to say people with 
disabilities don't deserve certain rights, either? 
They've already begun taking away the right to life, 
for some with disabilities.

Ponder that for a few minutes.  It's sad, and even a 
little scary, that such a world is already here, not 
just a possibility.  The people who want that as the 
rule, are right now trying to get into power and to 
sway the current leaders to get legislation as such, 
every day.  Some of our current leaders and some just 
elected I'm sure, are also following that line of 
thought.

Don't fool yourself into thinking it's not so.  If you 
pay attention, you'll see it all around you.

It's a death culture, not a life culture, that is 
rising up.  Christ's people are being pushed down, 
we're not rising up.  At least, not in as much of a 
significant way as the death culture is.  It is here, 
and it certainly is, "now."  So be wary, and don't 
think the possibility of being told how many children 
you can have, or that you can't have children, doesn't 
exist.


Strive On!
Everett
www.everettgavel.com


----- Original Message ----- 
>I think that's just silly talk.
>
> It's an issue that no one really cares about.  Stupid 
> people have children all the time so how can they be 
> any worse than a blind person or a deaf person? 
> There may be many who are willfully killing children 
> but I can't imagine a mandate on who can't have them.
>





From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Fri Nov 14 18:45:18 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 13:45:18 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Mandates On Who Can and Can't Have Children?
In-Reply-To: <000e01c94677$6bb92c80$0f8cdd45@IBMB7D6F383D44>
References: <84AA41E1A0EA4958A2E33AB534A998BA@your4dacd0ea75>
	<4383d01d0811131438s31d1796hd34703b81b498648@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY113-DS6690B968C93E90466EC18EB160@phx.gbl>
	<4383d01d0811140423s4c6f407dg238a3b20dd70f4a7@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY113-DS695252DCC48A976280C41EB160@phx.gbl>
	<4383d01d0811140707l5eb3aa7sd4bf3a6679afcd67@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY113-DS5259D6D993FDD78C00DDAEB160@phx.gbl>
	<000e01c94677$6bb92c80$0f8cdd45@IBMB7D6F383D44>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811141045p7dfa879mfb214971bc78d3dd@mail.gmail.com>

You're right, Everet.  And I want children more than anything.  It
would be nice if I had childrn of my own, but how to get them if I'm
not married.
Beth

On 11/14/08, Everett Gavel <everettg at successfuladaptations.com> wrote:
> "Can't imagine a mandate on who can't have them?"  Ah,
> now we're getting into deep territory here. And it has
> everything to do with faith and blindness, so no
> worries there. Regarding this thing on telling blind
> people they can't be parents or have children or
> whatever, there are some points to consider.
>
> *  In some other countries, China for example, I
> believe there are already mandates on how many children
> can be had.  No, not on blind people, but on everyone.
>
> *  There are also those leaders in our own USA that
> believe there should be such limits on people here.  If
> you give thought to it, it's not all that far from
> telling, next, who can or cannot have children.
> Thankfully we have not yet openly made a practice of
> limiting how many children each family can have.  But
> they are already doing so in other countries.  And
> again, it's not so far fetched or so far beyond such a
> decree, to begin telling various groupings of people
> they can or cannot have children.
>
> *  In this country, they are already giving the option
> of aborting babies with certain genetics, such as the
> likelihood of, what is it, Downs Syndrome, I think?
> How different is that, really?  It's us, here in
> America, already saying that people with disabilities -
> or at least, certain disabilities - don't deserve to
> live.
>
> *  How much farther do we have to step (I say step as
> it's not much of a jump) to say people with
> disabilities don't deserve certain rights, either?
> They've already begun taking away the right to life,
> for some with disabilities.
>
> Ponder that for a few minutes.  It's sad, and even a
> little scary, that such a world is already here, not
> just a possibility.  The people who want that as the
> rule, are right now trying to get into power and to
> sway the current leaders to get legislation as such,
> every day.  Some of our current leaders and some just
> elected I'm sure, are also following that line of
> thought.
>
> Don't fool yourself into thinking it's not so.  If you
> pay attention, you'll see it all around you.
>
> It's a death culture, not a life culture, that is
> rising up.  Christ's people are being pushed down,
> we're not rising up.  At least, not in as much of a
> significant way as the death culture is.  It is here,
> and it certainly is, "now."  So be wary, and don't
> think the possibility of being told how many children
> you can have, or that you can't have children, doesn't
> exist.
>
>
> Strive On!
> Everett
> www.everettgavel.com
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>>I think that's just silly talk.
>>
>> It's an issue that no one really cares about.  Stupid
>> people have children all the time so how can they be
>> any worse than a blind person or a deaf person?
>> There may be many who are willfully killing children
>> but I can't imagine a mandate on who can't have them.
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>



From lauraeaves at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 14 21:14:56 2008
From: lauraeaves at yahoo.com (tribble)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 15:14:56 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] asking for prayer
References: <BAY113-DS466A7E567BD6667E46C60EB160@phx.gbl><4383d01d0811140712p16845a3ekb4209eee6d64249@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY113-DS5F00916BEFABE037C521CEB160@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <375189E774B946CE9D0DD7763292BB9E@bassclef>

Wow Barbara -- that is a challenge you have taken on, and I am sure the Lord 
will bless your efforts even if it seems impossible at times. Autism is a 
difficult problem to handle.  I'll remember you in my prayers and hope that 
little bit can help.
--le


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Barbara Hammel" <poetlori8 at msn.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 9:47 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] asking for prayer


On the contrary, they don't want their blind themselves.  I know, some
parents do keep them, but many don't.
In fact, I'll tell you the whole story.

We waited for a year to adopt domestically but because of my being blind and
my husband being much older than me, we were never chosen by a birth
mother--or our portfolio was never shown.  That's neither here nor there now
because it's the past.  Only the workers know for sure and maybe they'll
have to answer one day.

So September of 04 I called to check on our status and they asked if we'd
thought about going international.  (Of course, blind parents would make
excellent parents for a blind child.)  We said yes we could do that.  They
told us about a little boy in Hong Kong who was four years old.  We saw
video and decided that autism just might be more than we could handle so
said no to him.  While we were waiting to hear about another four-year-old
boy in the Phillipines, a family wanted one of the ladies to go with them to
China to help them through the process.

While she was there, in November, she asked the Chinese lady if there were
any blind children.  You see, there is a list of children of promise that
some Asian countries list their special needs children on.  China does not
put blind children on this list because they figure no one will want them.

The lady checked and very shortly reported to the American that they did
have two two-year-olds.  And, yes, they were twins.  I had always wanted
twins.

We got all our paperwork done by the first of January and miraculously the
twins were okayed for just us.  If they'd gone on the regular list they'd
have been there for anyone.

Our dossier got to China, after taking only three weeks to translate it, and
arrived just before the New Year which is a fifteen day holiday.  At the end
of April we finally heard that we'd been approved.

On our seventh anniversary we walked in to the adoption center in Kunming to
receive our children.

And as you saw in an earlier post, ironically, the thing I didn't want I
ended up with double.

I know God does not give us more than we can handle but for the past three
years this family has barely been able to keep our noses out of the water.
I just keep praying that one day we'll look back on these days and not
believe how awful they were.  And maybe they just seem that way because for
the first few months all both did was scream.  Then this past January Jesse
screamed nonstop for six months because it took that long to find the
hernias.  Praise be for their teacher who discovered one.  Then two months
later Paul started screaming and hurting anyone who came near him.

This time I think God gave us a bite that was too big to swallow.  But He
knows what He's doing and no matter how little or much I teach them, as long
as we try our best to love them the best way we know how, God will work His
plan with them.  I just wish He would enlighten me.

Barbara

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 9:12 AM
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] asking for prayer

> Well, I'll pray for them.  That's nice you've adopted twtin boys from
> China who are blind.  You would think the Chinese wouldn't allow that
> to happenh because they don't want their blind outside of China or
> they don't want their blind to see the world.  Anyway, I'd like to
> adopt special needs children myself if I get married.  Good luck.
> Beth
>
> On 11/14/08, Barbara Hammel <poetlori8 at msn.com> wrote:
>> Since I am new to this list, most of you may not know that my husband and
>> I
>> adopted twin boys from China three years ago.  They are blind and on the
>> autism spectrum of disorders.
>> Well, constipation has been an ongoing occurrence with both of them.
>> Jesse
>> did have double hernias that were taken care of in late summer.  But now
>> Paul spent last weekend in the hospital to clear him out but he is not
>> back
>> to normal.
>> The request is that we and the doctors would have wisdom as to how to
>> help
>> this child get back to his bright sunny self.  He has missed quite a bit
>> of
>> school in the last few weeks.
>> And yes, should anyone suggest, they are already on Miralax which is a
>> natural stool softener.
>> Barbara
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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From mentink at frontiernet.net  Fri Nov 14 21:15:46 2008
From: mentink at frontiernet.net (Linda Mentink)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 15:15:46 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Upcoming Event
Message-ID: <20081114211546.3186719827D@relay02.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>


Some here might be interested. Read on.

Liberty Alert from Liberty Counsel - www.LC.org


Liberty Counsel - 
<http://sol.sparklist.com/t/4205966/28075533/75553/0/>www.LC.org

November 14, 2008

Mat Staver is a Weekend Guest on Fox News Channel show "Huckabee"

Mat Staver is a scheduled guest on Huckabee this weekend. He will 
discuss same-sex "marriage" and California's marriage amendment (Prop 
8) in a segment with Mike Huckabee and guest Janet Folger Porter of 
Faith2Action.

You can watch Huckabee at 8 pm Saturday and 2:00 am, and then again 
at 8 pm and 11 pm Sunday on the 
<http://sol.sparklist.com/t/4205966/28075533/76175/0/>Fox News Channel.

Liberty Counsel is committed to 
<http://sol.sparklist.com/t/4205966/28075533/76115/0/>fight for 
marriage, whether in California or anywhere else. We are on the front 
lines of the culture war. Since passage of the marriage amendment in 
California, militant homosexual activists have become alarmingly 
aggressive against traditional marriage supporters.

Evangelical Christian, Mormon and Catholic churches have become 
targets of screaming, angry crowds of homosexuals, with some events 
turning violent. In Palm Springs, an elderly lady was attacked and 
the cross she carried was trampled in a violent rampage. A group of 
radicals also entered and disrupted activities and terrorized a 
Michigan church.

This weekend there are homosexual protests planned for Washington, 
D.C. and in 175 other cities. Please pray for protection for those 
who hold traditional family values and who will be the brunt of the 
continuing attacks. Pray that the radical protestors will turn from 
their wicked ways and be set free from their path of destruction.

We also appreciate your prayers for Liberty Counsel as we continue to 
advance religious freedom, the sanctity of human life and the 
traditional family.

Give a donation of only $14 or more and we will send you a copy of 
Mat Staver's book, Same Sex Marriage: Putting Every Household at 
Risk. You can 
<http://sol.sparklist.com/t/4205966/28075533/76174/0/>order online or 
call us at 800-671-1776.

Please help inform as many people as possible by forwarding this 
Liberty Alert to your entire e-mail list of family and friends, and 
encourage them to 
<http://sol.sparklist.com/t/4205966/28075533/75840/0/>subscribe.

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depend on individuals, groups and churches who care. Liberty Counsel 
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Liberty Counsel - 1-800-671-1776
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From lauraeaves at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 14 21:24:19 2008
From: lauraeaves at yahoo.com (tribble)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 15:24:19 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Mandates On Who Can and Can't Have Children?
References: <84AA41E1A0EA4958A2E33AB534A998BA@your4dacd0ea75><4383d01d0811131438s31d1796hd34703b81b498648@mail.gmail.com><BAY113-DS6690B968C93E90466EC18EB160@phx.gbl><4383d01d0811140423s4c6f407dg238a3b20dd70f4a7@mail.gmail.com><BAY113-DS695252DCC48A976280C41EB160@phx.gbl><4383d01d0811140707l5eb3aa7sd4bf3a6679afcd67@mail.gmail.com><BAY113-DS5259D6D993FDD78C00DDAEB160@phx.gbl><000e01c94677$6bb92c80$0f8cdd45@IBMB7D6F383D44>
	<4383d01d0811141045p7dfa879mfb214971bc78d3dd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8F4575E547494AB28FEEDF6C81E8E87E@bassclef>

Well, I would love children, but have chosen the path of not pressing for 
that blessing because of the combination of disabilities I have -- I figured 
early on that I would be happy being a doting aunt and a help to others with 
kids rather than taking on a family myself -- oh yes, and that reminds me, 
I'm single... Can't have kids very easily without a spouse.  (Any interested 
potential spouses out there can feel free to email me privately --and of 
course you know I'm kidding...*smile*)
I absolutely loved spoiling my niece and nephews when they were growing 
up... and I think their parents appreciated it. When I was still walking I 
babysat my oldest nephew and became very attached to him. Over the years, 
all the kids have stayed with me and my mother for various lengths of time. 
And now they are grown.
Well, good luck to those with kids. It's a strange world to grow up in. 
Wasn't there a chinese blessing that went "my you not live in interesting 
times..."  Interesting times can be fun, but also hazardous.
Keep up the good work.
--le

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "Everett Gavel" <EverettG at successfuladaptations.com>; "Faith-talk,for 
the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 12:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Mandates On Who Can and Can't Have Children?


You're right, Everet.  And I want children more than anything.  It
would be nice if I had childrn of my own, but how to get them if I'm
not married.
Beth

On 11/14/08, Everett Gavel <everettg at successfuladaptations.com> wrote:
> "Can't imagine a mandate on who can't have them?"  Ah,
> now we're getting into deep territory here. And it has
> everything to do with faith and blindness, so no
> worries there. Regarding this thing on telling blind
> people they can't be parents or have children or
> whatever, there are some points to consider.
>
> *  In some other countries, China for example, I
> believe there are already mandates on how many children
> can be had.  No, not on blind people, but on everyone.
>
> *  There are also those leaders in our own USA that
> believe there should be such limits on people here.  If
> you give thought to it, it's not all that far from
> telling, next, who can or cannot have children.
> Thankfully we have not yet openly made a practice of
> limiting how many children each family can have.  But
> they are already doing so in other countries.  And
> again, it's not so far fetched or so far beyond such a
> decree, to begin telling various groupings of people
> they can or cannot have children.
>
> *  In this country, they are already giving the option
> of aborting babies with certain genetics, such as the
> likelihood of, what is it, Downs Syndrome, I think?
> How different is that, really?  It's us, here in
> America, already saying that people with disabilities -
> or at least, certain disabilities - don't deserve to
> live.
>
> *  How much farther do we have to step (I say step as
> it's not much of a jump) to say people with
> disabilities don't deserve certain rights, either?
> They've already begun taking away the right to life,
> for some with disabilities.
>
> Ponder that for a few minutes.  It's sad, and even a
> little scary, that such a world is already here, not
> just a possibility.  The people who want that as the
> rule, are right now trying to get into power and to
> sway the current leaders to get legislation as such,
> every day.  Some of our current leaders and some just
> elected I'm sure, are also following that line of
> thought.
>
> Don't fool yourself into thinking it's not so.  If you
> pay attention, you'll see it all around you.
>
> It's a death culture, not a life culture, that is
> rising up.  Christ's people are being pushed down,
> we're not rising up.  At least, not in as much of a
> significant way as the death culture is.  It is here,
> and it certainly is, "now."  So be wary, and don't
> think the possibility of being told how many children
> you can have, or that you can't have children, doesn't
> exist.
>
>
> Strive On!
> Everett
> www.everettgavel.com
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>>I think that's just silly talk.
>>
>> It's an issue that no one really cares about.  Stupid
>> people have children all the time so how can they be
>> any worse than a blind person or a deaf person?
>> There may be many who are willfully killing children
>> but I can't imagine a mandate on who can't have them.
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>

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From mentink at frontiernet.net  Fri Nov 14 21:34:23 2008
From: mentink at frontiernet.net (Linda Mentink)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 15:34:23 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Carmel Alert
Message-ID: <20081114213424.10644CCBDA@relay04.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>


Hi all,

I get this bulletin every week.  I know we are in the last days.  Read on.



[]

Oversight Board :  Pastor Mike Fryer,  Sid Roth - 
Messianic Vision,  Motte Sircus

The CARMEL ALERT Nov 14th 2008
A compilation of news reports from the past week 
for the information of those committed to praying
  for Israel  and the salvation of the Jewish  people.

Stefan's Comment:  The Words of the Prophets Are Written on the Subway Walls
>Jeremiah 14:13-14 "Then I said, "Ah, Lord GOD! 
>Behold, the prophets say to them, 'You shall not 
>see the sword, nor shall you have famine, but I 
>will give you assured peace in this place.' And 
>the LORD said to me, "The prophets prophesy lies 
>in My name. I have not sent them, commanded 
>them, nor spoken to them; they prophesy to you a 
>false vision, divination, a worthless thing, and 
>the deceit of their heart.  (NKJ)
>
>Back in the days of Jeremiah and the prophets, 
>the people of Israel had the word of God, at 
>least some of it. They had the books of Moses 
>that include Gods instructions on the things 
>that matter to Him and are close to His heart. 
>God went into much detail in explaining what He 
>does not approve of and what is an abomination 
>in His sight. He also noted, on many occasions, 
>that if the children of Israel do not walk in 
>His ways and obey the voice of the Lord that He 
>would punish them harshly and remove them from 
>the land of inheritance that He had given to them.
>
>The children of Israel did much evil in the eyes 
>of God such as (amongst many other things) 
>worshipping other gods, sacrificing to them, 
>burning incense to them and building alters to 
>them. Gods word stated very clearly what would 
>happen if the people performed these 
>abominations. The false prophets in Jeremiah's 
>time stood up and spoke directly against what 
>God had said, and that despite all the evil that 
>they were doing they would continue to prosper and dwell securely in the land.
>
>The true prophets of old, sent by God, were the 
>ones who stood up and told everyone the bad 
>news, or the news that no one wanted to hear 
>that usually went something along the lines of 
>"repent of your wicked ways, return to the Lord 
>and He will forgive you, but if you continue in 
>them He will kick you out of the land, smite you 
>with the sword and so on...". These words were 
>not listened to and the prophets who spoke them 
>were persecuted and mocked instead. As Yeshua 
>said in Matt 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the 
>one who kills the prophets and stones those who 
>are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather 
>your children together, as a hen gathers her 
>chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! (NKJ).
>Paul also warned of such men who would rise up 
>in the latter days in 2 Tim 4:3-4 "For the time 
>will come when they will not endure sound 
>doctrine, but according to their own desires, 
>because they have itching ears, they will heap 
>up for themselves teachers and they will turn 
>their ears away from the truth, and be turned 
>aside to fables.(NKJ) Obviously not much is new 
>under the sun as King Solomon wisely said.
>
>Those fables that Paul is speaking about are the 
>same fables, unsound doctrines and non-truths 
>that the false prophets were declaring in the 
>time of Jeremiah by saying to the people that 
>they will have peace and be secure and prosper 
>when the very word of God said the exact 
>opposite about those who worshipped idols and did evil in the sight of God.
>
>Today it is not much different. There are many 
>so called / self proclaimed 'prophets' walking 
>around and declaring all kinds of 'words' that 
>go directly against God's word. Prophecies are 
>coming out saying that the world situation is 
>going to get better or that God is going to 
>restore and bless certain countries that very 
>obviously not standing with or supporting 
>Israel. There are many prosperity doctrines 
>being proclaimed throughout the congregations of 
>the world and many people are buying into them. 
>I believe that God wants to bless us and give us 
>the best (which in many cases His best is a 
>little different from our best. The 'best' car 
>for me is a Ferrari but God's best car for us 
>may be something a little different - see Isaiah 
>55:8-9 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, 
>nor are your ways My ways...") but still God's 
>word is very clear on what is going to happen in 
>the world, and to believers in particular, 
>during the end days. Persecution, death and 
>tribulations. Nations that deal unjustly with 
>Israel will be judged harshly (even thought in 
>many cases it is God Himself who prompts those 
>nations against Israel in the first place), not prosper.
>
>Amongst all these terrors we also have hope. 
>Yeshua said not to worry about these things 
>because He has overcome the world and in the 
>book of Daniel (11:32) it is written that those 
>who know their God will carry out great 
>exploits.  Times are becoming darker and we need 
>to be able to discern between what comes from 
>God and what is of the flesh, or, the deceit of 
>our own hearts. God's word is our standard and 
>the light unto our feet and everything is to be 
>measured by it along with the Holy Spirit who 
>helps us to walk in all truth. God, through His 
>spirit, also gives us a spirit of discernment so 
>that we can see what is from Him and what is 
>not, as God's Ruach (Spirit) cannot go against His own word.
>Now is the time to burrow deep into the word of 
>God, to place His truths as the foundations of 
>our lives and allow His sprit to sharpen us so 
>that the evil one will not be able to deceive us in these perilous times.

The Lord bless you as you bless Israel by 
standing in defense of her right to exist on the 
land given to th Jewish people by the God of 
Israel Lets pray that Israel will turn back to 
their God.  Do not be silent, but share this with 
your fellow Christians, share it with your 
pastors, and with anyone you have a chance to 
speak to. Lets also pray for that breakthrough to 
the Muslims,  and please remember to pray for our 
son Jordan, and all of his fellow soldiers in the IDF.

Shabbat Shalom  ....    David & Josie

THIS WEEKS NEWS REPORTS

1. Israeli Lightly Wounded As Rocket Barrage Hits 
Negev     Har Aretz News    Nov 14th
      A barrage of rockets fired from the Gaza 
Strip exploded in the western Negev on Friday 
morning, leaving one Israeli lightly 
wounded.   The strikes began in the early hours 
of Friday when eight Qassams exploded in and 
around the southern city of Sderot. Another five 
rockets, claimed by Hamas to be of the Grad type, 
struck Ashkelon a few hours later.   One Israeli 
suffered shrapnel wounds and another four were 
treated for shock after the first eight rockets 
exploded in Sderot and in a kibbutz nearby. Two 
of the rockets that hit Sderot damaged local 
buildings.   Immediately after the initial 
barrage, an Israel Air Force air craft fired a 
missile at a rocket-launching area in the 
northern Gaza Strip, wounding two gunmen.
The two gunmen named as members of the Islamic 
Jihad militant group. Hamas claimed 
responsibility for all of the rockets fired on 
Friday.  Meanwhile, Israel on Thursday delivered 
a message to Hamas via Egyptian intermediaries 
indicating that while it has no interest in 
escalating tensions along the Gaza border, it 
would retaliate against any attempt by the 
Islamist group to carry out attacks.

2.  Ceremonies Around the World Remember 
Kristallnacht    Jerusalem Post   Nov 9th
     More than 150 Jewish communities across 
Europe kept the lights of their local synagogues 
on overnight Sunday, as the Jewish world marked 
the 70th anniversary of Kristallnacht - the Night 
of the Broken Glass.  The notorious 1938 Nazi 
pogrom was the first in a series of violent riots 
that effectively began Nazi Germany's attempt to 
destroy European Jewry.  During November 9-10, 
1938, hundreds of synagogues and Jewish homes 
were burned down, tens of thousands of Jews were 
arrested and deported to concentration camps, and 
over 90 Jews were murdered.  The World Zionist 
Organization initiative, calling on rabbis and 
community leaders turn on all the lights in their 
synagogues - as well as to light candles and 
torches - was meant to commemorate the pogrom in a highly symbolic way

3. With Obama at Helm, Iranian Threat Looms Large    Israel Today News Nov 9th
      With President-elect Barack Obama ready to 
assume power in the most powerful nation on 
earth, Israel faces the grave prospect of a 
nuclear Iran. Barry Rubin, director of the Global 
Research in International Affairs Center, says he 
is worried about Obama?s stated intention to 
?conciliate with our enemies, not support our 
friends. That worries me a great deal.?  Rubin 
said that while the Israeli-Palestinian situation 
is not likely to be vastly affected by any 
American president, the more serious threat is a 
nuclear Iran and the ?extremely serious strategic 
challenge which affects 20 countries or more.  We 
have every reason to believe that [Obama] will 
take a relatively soft approach, whether or not 
he holds direct negotiations or indirect 
negotiations? with Iran, Rubin told a news 
briefing in Jerusalem last week. ?We cannot 
expect that he will take a tougher line on 
sanctions and pressures, and he will not persuade 
Tehran that he?s going to do so. This will have 
the predictable effect that the Iranians are 
going to push ahead on nuclear weapons as fast as 
they have with much less concern over the consequences.?
      While Israeli leaders welcomed Obama?s 
election and said they expect the ?special 
strategic relationship? between the two countries 
to continue, signs of strain quickly emerged. A 
day after the election, Foreign Minister Tzipi 
Livni publicly condemned Obama?s plans to talk to 
Iran.  ?We live in a neighborhood in which 
dialogue?in a situation where you have brought 
sanctions, and you then shift to dialogue?is 
liable to be interpreted as weakness,? Livni 
said. Asked if she supported the US dialogue with 
Iran, Livni replied: ?The answer is no.?
Some Israelis are jealous of a charismatic figure 
that galvanized a nation, a dynamic missing in 
Israeli politics. As Israel heads toward its own 
elections, no such visionary leader has risen 
up.   But others expressed misgivings about 
Obama?s policies toward Israel. An editorial in 
the right-wing Israel National News said Obama?s 
readiness to sit down with an adversary comes 
from his ?limited experience in international 
affairs. One who surrenders and retreats in hopes 
of gaining a little peace places his own survival 
in jeopardy,? the editorial said. ?Such has been 
Israel?s experience at least since the year 2000, 
and such will be the experience of the United 
States if it sacrifices the interests of its 
allies in the pursuit of facile and elusive 
?solutions.??   More cause for concern came from 
the Arab press. The Lebanese newspaper al-Ahbar 
reported that Obama told Palestinian President 
Mahmoud Abbas in secret that he supports a 
Palestinian state and Arab ?rights to East Jerusalem.?

4. Livni Rejects Olmert's Call for Total 
Surrender    Israel Today News   Nov 11th
     Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni, head 
of the ruling Kadima Party, distanced herself on 
Tuesday from remarks by caretaker Prime Minister 
Ehud Olmert to the effect that Israel should meet 
nearly all Arab territorial demands.   Livni told 
Army Radio that Olmert's positions regarding the 
peace process are today irrelevant, and that she 
will not allow the deposed prime minister to 
influence the policy decisions of the next 
government to be elected in February.   A day 
earlier Olmert used a memorial ceremony marking 
the 13th anniversary of the assassination of 
former Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin as a platform 
to push his defeatist positions.   "We must 
concede parts of the homeland we have prayed for 
and dreamt of for generations," said Olmert. "We 
must relinquish Arab neighborhoods in Jerusalem, 
and return to that territory which comprised the 
State of Israel until 1967, with the necessary 
amendments stemming from the realities created on ground."
      Olmert's critics on the Right, meanwhile, 
pointed out that Olmert was grossly 
misrepresenting the legacy of Rabin, whose own 
political doctrine far more closely resembled 
that of right-wing leader Benjamin Netanyahu and 
his colleagues.  In his final Kenesset speech 
just days before he was murdered, Rabin stated 
forcefully that Israel "will not return to the 
June 4, 1967 lines."  Rabin also pledged that he 
would never surrender any part of Jerusalem to 
the Palestinian Authority, nor "uproot a single 
settlement in the framework of the interim agreement."

5. Netanyahu Will Halt Land-or-Peace Process 
After All    For Zions Sake News Report   Nov 12
     The office of Likud Party and Knesset 
opposition leader Benjamin Netanyahu on Tuesday 
clarified that if elected prime minister in 
Israel's upcoming general election, he will halt 
the current land-for-peace process with the 
Palestinians, despite reports this week to the 
contrary.   Netanyahu spokeswoman Dina Libster 
confirmed to the Associated Press that the Likud 
leader had plans to put territorial negotiations 
on hold and focus on helping the Palestinians 
stabilize and grow their economy.   Libster said 
Netanyahu views the land-for-peace negotiations 
that have been going on for over 15 years, and 
accelerated over the past year by US President 
George W. Bush, as a dismal failure.   "Netanyahu 
does not want to halt talks, but he believes it's 
premature to talk about a final peace deal, and 
sharing control of Jerusalem is out of the 
question," Libster said.  She noted that the 
Palestinians regularly point to their economic 
plight source of their terrorist tendencies, and 
so obviously that situation must be remedied 
before any viable agreement on other issues can be reached.
Earlier this week Israeli media reported that 
Netanyahu had apparently backtracked on his 
position after meeting with and coming under 
pressure from international peace envoy Tony 
Blair and US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice.

6.  Israel Infuriated by U.K. Plan to Label West 
Bank Produce    Ha Aretz News   Nov 14th
     Relations between Israel and Britain 
remained strained on Thursday over Downing 
Street's intention to label products manufactured 
in West Bank settlements, a week before the 
expected arrival of British Secretary of State 
for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, David 
Miliband, to the Middle East.   Miliband, who 
will visit Israel, the Palestinian Authority, 
Syria and Lebanon next week, is expected to talk 
to Israeli officials over the settlements in the 
West Bank and his country's proposed plan to 
label products manufactured in them. "This 
initiative is a serious and substantial problem 
in relations between the two countries, and is 
generating a sense of crisis," a senior diplomat in Jerusalem said.

7. Obama's Fictitious Pro-Israel Team     by Jan Markell
       There is a saying in the Jewish community, 
"But is it good for for the Jews?"  Thus, many 
are asking, will the Obama administration be an 
asset or liability for Israel? While many 
Christians place little interest or importance on 
this, this ministry does.  Much is being made of 
several Jews who are now a part of the Obama 
administration. Some seem to think that a few are 
very pro-Israel Jews and that we will thus see a 
new course of American-Israeli relations. I hate 
to burst bubbles but they are dead wrong.   he 
Israeli newspaper Israel National News reports 
that Obama hired a number of Jewish advisors who 
are quite critical of Israel, are anti-Israel 
(yes, some Jews are critical of Israel), and are 
in fantasyland about the Saudi Arabian peace 
intentions.  Those include Dennis Ross, Dan 
Kurtzer, Zbigniew Brzezinski, Tony McPeak, Susan 
Rice, Martin Indyk, and several more. These spell 
serious problems for Israel. Then there is 
Chief-of-Staff Rahm Emmanuel. He was the key 
person in the Clinton administration to make Oslo 
happen in 1992 and 1993. So we have a group of 
Jewish advisors, some of them Jewish, who are 
unfriendly to Israel's settlement policies in 
Judea and Samaria, also known as the West Bank and eager to divide Jerusalem.

8.  UK's Brown: Now is the Time to Build Global Society   Nov 10th
       The international financial crisis has 
given world leaders a unique opportunity to 
create a truly global society, Britain's Prime 
Minister Gordon Brown will say in a keynote 
foreign policy speech on Monday.  In his annual 
speech at the Lord Mayor's Banquet, Brown -- who 
has spearheaded calls for the reform of 
international financial institutions -- will say 
Britain, the United States and Europe are key to 
forging a new world order.   "The alliance 
between Britain and the U.S. -- and more broadly 
between Europe and the U.S. -- can and must 
provide leadership, not in order to make the 
rules ourselves, but to lead the global effort to 
build a stronger and more just international 
order," an excerpt from the speech says.
Brown and other leaders meet in Washington next 
weekend to discuss longer term solutions for 
dealing with economic issues following a series 
of coordinated moves on interest rates and to 
recapitalize banks in the wake of the financial crisis.
      "Uniquely in this global age, it is now in 
our power to come together so that 2008 is 
remembered not just for the failure of a 
financial crash that engulfed the world but for 
the resilience and optimism with which we faced 
the storm, endured it and prevailed," Brown will 
say in his speech on Monday evening.   "...And if 
we learn from our experience of turning unity of 
purpose into unity of action, we can together 
seize this moment of change in our world to 
create a truly global society."  According to a 
summary of the speech released by his office, 
Brown will set out five great challenges the 
world faces.  These are: terrorism and extremism 
and the need to reassert faith in democracy; the 
global economy; climate change; conflict and 
mechanisms for rebuilding states after conflict; 
and meeting goals on tackling poverty and disease.

Quote of the week:     Sky TV News  Nov 
10th      "  Barack Obama is being hailed as the 
saviour of the world  "

**************

FINANCES: The Carmel Alert prayer points bulletin 
is sent out weekly via e-mail.  We also produce a 
bi-monthly  family ministry newsletter which we 
prefer to send out by postal mail.  Much of our 
literature is on our  website 
at:  www.out-of-zion.com Out of Zion Ministries 
is answering the call to be a blessing and a 
light to the nations.   David regularly travels 
to churches around the world to share the Word of 
the Lord in respect to the Jewish roots of 
Christianity, and to bring awareness of the 
Church's relation-ship to Israel and  the Jewish 
people and her responsibility to partner with the 
Lord in the restoration of  Israel.  We are open 
to  visiting your congregation if  we are 
invited.  We are have a vision to take the Gospel 
to the Jew first and then to the people of other nations.
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& our fellow-workers.   If you wish to become a 
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of  Israel, & the restoration of the Church 
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at     kiwi at netvision.net.il.  Your prayer and 
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From mentink at frontiernet.net  Fri Nov 14 22:59:53 2008
From: mentink at frontiernet.net (Linda Mentink)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 16:59:53 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Praying
Message-ID: <20081114225953.6F7801982C7@relay02.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>

Hi Mary and Barbara,

I'm remembering your requests, as I believe very much in the power of prayer.

Blessings,

Linda




From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Fri Nov 14 23:47:13 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 18:47:13 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] asking for prayer
In-Reply-To: <375189E774B946CE9D0DD7763292BB9E@bassclef>
References: <BAY113-DS466A7E567BD6667E46C60EB160@phx.gbl>
	<4383d01d0811140712p16845a3ekb4209eee6d64249@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY113-DS5F00916BEFABE037C521CEB160@phx.gbl>
	<375189E774B946CE9D0DD7763292BB9E@bassclef>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811141547x6524a073h22217d4d230feee2@mail.gmail.com>

Music is a good way to get through to autistic children.  Horseback
therapy is also a good way to get through to them as well.
Beth

On 11/14/08, tribble <lauraeaves at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Wow Barbara -- that is a challenge you have taken on, and I am sure the Lord
> will bless your efforts even if it seems impossible at times. Autism is a
> difficult problem to handle.  I'll remember you in my prayers and hope that
> little bit can help.
> --le
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Barbara Hammel" <poetlori8 at msn.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 9:47 AM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] asking for prayer
>
>
> On the contrary, they don't want their blind themselves.  I know, some
> parents do keep them, but many don't.
> In fact, I'll tell you the whole story.
>
> We waited for a year to adopt domestically but because of my being blind and
> my husband being much older than me, we were never chosen by a birth
> mother--or our portfolio was never shown.  That's neither here nor there now
> because it's the past.  Only the workers know for sure and maybe they'll
> have to answer one day.
>
> So September of 04 I called to check on our status and they asked if we'd
> thought about going international.  (Of course, blind parents would make
> excellent parents for a blind child.)  We said yes we could do that.  They
> told us about a little boy in Hong Kong who was four years old.  We saw
> video and decided that autism just might be more than we could handle so
> said no to him.  While we were waiting to hear about another four-year-old
> boy in the Phillipines, a family wanted one of the ladies to go with them to
> China to help them through the process.
>
> While she was there, in November, she asked the Chinese lady if there were
> any blind children.  You see, there is a list of children of promise that
> some Asian countries list their special needs children on.  China does not
> put blind children on this list because they figure no one will want them.
>
> The lady checked and very shortly reported to the American that they did
> have two two-year-olds.  And, yes, they were twins.  I had always wanted
> twins.
>
> We got all our paperwork done by the first of January and miraculously the
> twins were okayed for just us.  If they'd gone on the regular list they'd
> have been there for anyone.
>
> Our dossier got to China, after taking only three weeks to translate it, and
> arrived just before the New Year which is a fifteen day holiday.  At the end
> of April we finally heard that we'd been approved.
>
> On our seventh anniversary we walked in to the adoption center in Kunming to
> receive our children.
>
> And as you saw in an earlier post, ironically, the thing I didn't want I
> ended up with double.
>
> I know God does not give us more than we can handle but for the past three
> years this family has barely been able to keep our noses out of the water.
> I just keep praying that one day we'll look back on these days and not
> believe how awful they were.  And maybe they just seem that way because for
> the first few months all both did was scream.  Then this past January Jesse
> screamed nonstop for six months because it took that long to find the
> hernias.  Praise be for their teacher who discovered one.  Then two months
> later Paul started screaming and hurting anyone who came near him.
>
> This time I think God gave us a bite that was too big to swallow.  But He
> knows what He's doing and no matter how little or much I teach them, as long
> as we try our best to love them the best way we know how, God will work His
> plan with them.  I just wish He would enlighten me.
>
> Barbara
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 9:12 AM
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] asking for prayer
>
>> Well, I'll pray for them.  That's nice you've adopted twtin boys from
>> China who are blind.  You would think the Chinese wouldn't allow that
>> to happenh because they don't want their blind outside of China or
>> they don't want their blind to see the world.  Anyway, I'd like to
>> adopt special needs children myself if I get married.  Good luck.
>> Beth
>>
>> On 11/14/08, Barbara Hammel <poetlori8 at msn.com> wrote:
>>> Since I am new to this list, most of you may not know that my husband and
>>> I
>>> adopted twin boys from China three years ago.  They are blind and on the
>>> autism spectrum of disorders.
>>> Well, constipation has been an ongoing occurrence with both of them.
>>> Jesse
>>> did have double hernias that were taken care of in late summer.  But now
>>> Paul spent last weekend in the hospital to clear him out but he is not
>>> back
>>> to normal.
>>> The request is that we and the doctors would have wisdom as to how to
>>> help
>>> this child get back to his bright sunny self.  He has missed quite a bit
>>> of
>>> school in the last few weeks.
>>> And yes, should anyone suggest, they are already on Miralax which is a
>>> natural stool softener.
>>> Barbara
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
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>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>



From poetlori8 at msn.com  Sat Nov 15 00:13:07 2008
From: poetlori8 at msn.com (Barbara Hammel)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 18:13:07 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Mandates On Who Can and Can't Have Children?
In-Reply-To: <84AA41E1A0EA4958A2E33AB534A998BA@your4dacd0ea75><4383d01d0811131438s31d1796hd34703b81b498648@mail.gmail.com><BAY113-DS6690B968C93E90466EC18EB160@phx.gbl><4383d01d0811140423s4c6f407dg238a3b20dd70f4a7@mail.gmail.com><BAY113-DS695252DCC48A976280C41EB160@phx.gbl><4383d01d0811140707l5eb3aa7sd4bf3a6679afcd67@mail.gmail.com><BAY113-DS5259D6D993FDD78C00DDAEB160@phx.gbl>
	<000e01c94677$6bb92c80$0f8cdd45@IBMB7D6F383D44>
References: <84AA41E1A0EA4958A2E33AB534A998BA@your4dacd0ea75><4383d01d0811131438s31d1796hd34703b81b498648@mail.gmail.com><BAY113-DS6690B968C93E90466EC18EB160@phx.gbl><4383d01d0811140423s4c6f407dg238a3b20dd70f4a7@mail.gmail.com><BAY113-DS695252DCC48A976280C41EB160@phx.gbl><4383d01d0811140707l5eb3aa7sd4bf3a6679afcd67@mail.gmail.com><BAY113-DS5259D6D993FDD78C00DDAEB160@phx.gbl>
	<000e01c94677$6bb92c80$0f8cdd45@IBMB7D6F383D44>
Message-ID: <BAY113-DS52E0A4AE909DD93B7B208EB110@phx.gbl>

On those points you are correct.  However in China they are relaxing it a 
bit because too much of a burden is falling on the shoulders of an only 
child to care for two parents of only children.  There's only so much money 
to go around.

When we were in China one of our interpreters said the rule is also more lax 
the farther you get from the seat of power.
Barbara


--------------------------------------------------
From: "Everett Gavel" <everettg at successfuladaptations.com>
Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 10:38 AM
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Subject: [Faith-talk] Mandates On Who Can and Can't Have Children?

> "Can't imagine a mandate on who can't have them?"  Ah, now we're getting 
> into deep territory here. And it has everything to do with faith and 
> blindness, so no worries there. Regarding this thing on telling blind 
> people they can't be parents or have children or whatever, there are some 
> points to consider.
>
> *  In some other countries, China for example, I believe there are already 
> mandates on how many children can be had.  No, not on blind people, but on 
> everyone.
>
> *  There are also those leaders in our own USA that believe there should 
> be such limits on people here.  If you give thought to it, it's not all 
> that far from telling, next, who can or cannot have children. Thankfully 
> we have not yet openly made a practice of limiting how many children each 
> family can have.  But they are already doing so in other countries.  And 
> again, it's not so far fetched or so far beyond such a decree, to begin 
> telling various groupings of people they can or cannot have children.
>
> *  In this country, they are already giving the option of aborting babies 
> with certain genetics, such as the likelihood of, what is it, Downs 
> Syndrome, I think? How different is that, really?  It's us, here in 
> America, already saying that people with disabilities - or at least, 
> certain disabilities - don't deserve to live.
>
> *  How much farther do we have to step (I say step as it's not much of a 
> jump) to say people with disabilities don't deserve certain rights, 
> either? They've already begun taking away the right to life, for some with 
> disabilities.
>
> Ponder that for a few minutes.  It's sad, and even a little scary, that 
> such a world is already here, not just a possibility.  The people who want 
> that as the rule, are right now trying to get into power and to sway the 
> current leaders to get legislation as such, every day.  Some of our 
> current leaders and some just elected I'm sure, are also following that 
> line of thought.
>
> Don't fool yourself into thinking it's not so.  If you pay attention, 
> you'll see it all around you.
>
> It's a death culture, not a life culture, that is rising up.  Christ's 
> people are being pushed down, we're not rising up.  At least, not in as 
> much of a significant way as the death culture is.  It is here, and it 
> certainly is, "now."  So be wary, and don't think the possibility of being 
> told how many children you can have, or that you can't have children, 
> doesn't exist.
>
>
> Strive On!
> Everett
> www.everettgavel.com
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>I think that's just silly talk.
>>
>> It's an issue that no one really cares about.  Stupid people have 
>> children all the time so how can they be any worse than a blind person or 
>> a deaf person? There may be many who are willfully killing children but I 
>> can't imagine a mandate on who can't have them.
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
> 



From poetlori8 at msn.com  Sat Nov 15 00:32:23 2008
From: poetlori8 at msn.com (Barbara Hammel)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 18:32:23 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] asking for prayer
In-Reply-To: <BAY113-DS466A7E567BD6667E46C60EB160@phx.gbl><4383d01d0811140712p16845a3ekb4209eee6d64249@mail.gmail.com><BAY113-DS5F00916BEFABE037C521CEB160@phx.gbl><375189E774B946CE9D0DD7763292BB9E@bassclef>
	<4383d01d0811141547x6524a073h22217d4d230feee2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY113-DS466A7E567BD6667E46C60EB160@phx.gbl><4383d01d0811140712p16845a3ekb4209eee6d64249@mail.gmail.com><BAY113-DS5F00916BEFABE037C521CEB160@phx.gbl><375189E774B946CE9D0DD7763292BB9E@bassclef>
	<4383d01d0811141547x6524a073h22217d4d230feee2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY113-DS614EA347B97F0C315C627EB110@phx.gbl>

Paul loves music and knows the words to over 100 songs.  I'd love to try 
horseback riding but haven't had the nerve or opportunity to try it yet.
Barbara

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 5:47 PM
To: "tribble" <lauraeaves at yahoo.com>; "Faith-talk,for the discussion of 
faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] asking for prayer

> Music is a good way to get through to autistic children.  Horseback
> therapy is also a good way to get through to them as well.
> Beth
>
> On 11/14/08, tribble <lauraeaves at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Wow Barbara -- that is a challenge you have taken on, and I am sure the 
>> Lord
>> will bless your efforts even if it seems impossible at times. Autism is a
>> difficult problem to handle.  I'll remember you in my prayers and hope 
>> that
>> little bit can help.
>> --le
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Barbara Hammel" <poetlori8 at msn.com>
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 9:47 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] asking for prayer
>>
>>
>> On the contrary, they don't want their blind themselves.  I know, some
>> parents do keep them, but many don't.
>> In fact, I'll tell you the whole story.
>>
>> We waited for a year to adopt domestically but because of my being blind 
>> and
>> my husband being much older than me, we were never chosen by a birth
>> mother--or our portfolio was never shown.  That's neither here nor there 
>> now
>> because it's the past.  Only the workers know for sure and maybe they'll
>> have to answer one day.
>>
>> So September of 04 I called to check on our status and they asked if we'd
>> thought about going international.  (Of course, blind parents would make
>> excellent parents for a blind child.)  We said yes we could do that. 
>> They
>> told us about a little boy in Hong Kong who was four years old.  We saw
>> video and decided that autism just might be more than we could handle so
>> said no to him.  While we were waiting to hear about another 
>> four-year-old
>> boy in the Phillipines, a family wanted one of the ladies to go with them 
>> to
>> China to help them through the process.
>>
>> While she was there, in November, she asked the Chinese lady if there 
>> were
>> any blind children.  You see, there is a list of children of promise that
>> some Asian countries list their special needs children on.  China does 
>> not
>> put blind children on this list because they figure no one will want 
>> them.
>>
>> The lady checked and very shortly reported to the American that they did
>> have two two-year-olds.  And, yes, they were twins.  I had always wanted
>> twins.
>>
>> We got all our paperwork done by the first of January and miraculously 
>> the
>> twins were okayed for just us.  If they'd gone on the regular list they'd
>> have been there for anyone.
>>
>> Our dossier got to China, after taking only three weeks to translate it, 
>> and
>> arrived just before the New Year which is a fifteen day holiday.  At the 
>> end
>> of April we finally heard that we'd been approved.
>>
>> On our seventh anniversary we walked in to the adoption center in Kunming 
>> to
>> receive our children.
>>
>> And as you saw in an earlier post, ironically, the thing I didn't want I
>> ended up with double.
>>
>> I know God does not give us more than we can handle but for the past 
>> three
>> years this family has barely been able to keep our noses out of the 
>> water.
>> I just keep praying that one day we'll look back on these days and not
>> believe how awful they were.  And maybe they just seem that way because 
>> for
>> the first few months all both did was scream.  Then this past January 
>> Jesse
>> screamed nonstop for six months because it took that long to find the
>> hernias.  Praise be for their teacher who discovered one.  Then two 
>> months
>> later Paul started screaming and hurting anyone who came near him.
>>
>> This time I think God gave us a bite that was too big to swallow.  But He
>> knows what He's doing and no matter how little or much I teach them, as 
>> long
>> as we try our best to love them the best way we know how, God will work 
>> His
>> plan with them.  I just wish He would enlighten me.
>>
>> Barbara
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>> Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 9:12 AM
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] asking for prayer
>>
>>> Well, I'll pray for them.  That's nice you've adopted twtin boys from
>>> China who are blind.  You would think the Chinese wouldn't allow that
>>> to happenh because they don't want their blind outside of China or
>>> they don't want their blind to see the world.  Anyway, I'd like to
>>> adopt special needs children myself if I get married.  Good luck.
>>> Beth
>>>
>>> On 11/14/08, Barbara Hammel <poetlori8 at msn.com> wrote:
>>>> Since I am new to this list, most of you may not know that my husband 
>>>> and
>>>> I
>>>> adopted twin boys from China three years ago.  They are blind and on 
>>>> the
>>>> autism spectrum of disorders.
>>>> Well, constipation has been an ongoing occurrence with both of them.
>>>> Jesse
>>>> did have double hernias that were taken care of in late summer.  But 
>>>> now
>>>> Paul spent last weekend in the hospital to clear him out but he is not
>>>> back
>>>> to normal.
>>>> The request is that we and the doctors would have wisdom as to how to
>>>> help
>>>> this child get back to his bright sunny self.  He has missed quite a 
>>>> bit
>>>> of
>>>> school in the last few weeks.
>>>> And yes, should anyone suggest, they are already on Miralax which is a
>>>> natural stool softener.
>>>> Barbara
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>>
>
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From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Sat Nov 15 02:42:09 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 21:42:09 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Mandates On Who Can and Can't Have Children?
In-Reply-To: <8F4575E547494AB28FEEDF6C81E8E87E@bassclef>
References: <84AA41E1A0EA4958A2E33AB534A998BA@your4dacd0ea75>
	<4383d01d0811131438s31d1796hd34703b81b498648@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY113-DS6690B968C93E90466EC18EB160@phx.gbl>
	<4383d01d0811140423s4c6f407dg238a3b20dd70f4a7@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY113-DS695252DCC48A976280C41EB160@phx.gbl>
	<4383d01d0811140707l5eb3aa7sd4bf3a6679afcd67@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY113-DS5259D6D993FDD78C00DDAEB160@phx.gbl>
	<000e01c94677$6bb92c80$0f8cdd45@IBMB7D6F383D44>
	<4383d01d0811141045p7dfa879mfb214971bc78d3dd@mail.gmail.com>
	<8F4575E547494AB28FEEDF6C81E8E87E@bassclef>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811141842r2c5cc8b2rd44ad736b48dc5c5@mail.gmail.com>

I heard that in North Korea, they put disabled people in subhuman
goulags where having children i not permitted.  That is according to
Human Rights Watch.  God bless those people and hope that Kim Jong Il
is deposed.
Beth

On 11/14/08, tribble <lauraeaves at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Well, I would love children, but have chosen the path of not pressing for
> that blessing because of the combination of disabilities I have -- I figured
> early on that I would be happy being a doting aunt and a help to others with
> kids rather than taking on a family myself -- oh yes, and that reminds me,
> I'm single... Can't have kids very easily without a spouse.  (Any interested
> potential spouses out there can feel free to email me privately --and of
> course you know I'm kidding...*smile*)
> I absolutely loved spoiling my niece and nephews when they were growing
> up... and I think their parents appreciated it. When I was still walking I
> babysat my oldest nephew and became very attached to him. Over the years,
> all the kids have stayed with me and my mother for various lengths of time.
> And now they are grown.
> Well, good luck to those with kids. It's a strange world to grow up in.
> Wasn't there a chinese blessing that went "my you not live in interesting
> times..."  Interesting times can be fun, but also hazardous.
> Keep up the good work.
> --le
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> To: "Everett Gavel" <EverettG at successfuladaptations.com>; "Faith-talk,for
> the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 12:45 PM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Mandates On Who Can and Can't Have Children?
>
>
> You're right, Everet.  And I want children more than anything.  It
> would be nice if I had childrn of my own, but how to get them if I'm
> not married.
> Beth
>
> On 11/14/08, Everett Gavel <everettg at successfuladaptations.com> wrote:
>> "Can't imagine a mandate on who can't have them?"  Ah,
>> now we're getting into deep territory here. And it has
>> everything to do with faith and blindness, so no
>> worries there. Regarding this thing on telling blind
>> people they can't be parents or have children or
>> whatever, there are some points to consider.
>>
>> *  In some other countries, China for example, I
>> believe there are already mandates on how many children
>> can be had.  No, not on blind people, but on everyone.
>>
>> *  There are also those leaders in our own USA that
>> believe there should be such limits on people here.  If
>> you give thought to it, it's not all that far from
>> telling, next, who can or cannot have children.
>> Thankfully we have not yet openly made a practice of
>> limiting how many children each family can have.  But
>> they are already doing so in other countries.  And
>> again, it's not so far fetched or so far beyond such a
>> decree, to begin telling various groupings of people
>> they can or cannot have children.
>>
>> *  In this country, they are already giving the option
>> of aborting babies with certain genetics, such as the
>> likelihood of, what is it, Downs Syndrome, I think?
>> How different is that, really?  It's us, here in
>> America, already saying that people with disabilities -
>> or at least, certain disabilities - don't deserve to
>> live.
>>
>> *  How much farther do we have to step (I say step as
>> it's not much of a jump) to say people with
>> disabilities don't deserve certain rights, either?
>> They've already begun taking away the right to life,
>> for some with disabilities.
>>
>> Ponder that for a few minutes.  It's sad, and even a
>> little scary, that such a world is already here, not
>> just a possibility.  The people who want that as the
>> rule, are right now trying to get into power and to
>> sway the current leaders to get legislation as such,
>> every day.  Some of our current leaders and some just
>> elected I'm sure, are also following that line of
>> thought.
>>
>> Don't fool yourself into thinking it's not so.  If you
>> pay attention, you'll see it all around you.
>>
>> It's a death culture, not a life culture, that is
>> rising up.  Christ's people are being pushed down,
>> we're not rising up.  At least, not in as much of a
>> significant way as the death culture is.  It is here,
>> and it certainly is, "now."  So be wary, and don't
>> think the possibility of being told how many children
>> you can have, or that you can't have children, doesn't
>> exist.
>>
>>
>> Strive On!
>> Everett
>> www.everettgavel.com
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>I think that's just silly talk.
>>>
>>> It's an issue that no one really cares about.  Stupid
>>> people have children all the time so how can they be
>>> any worse than a blind person or a deaf person?
>>> There may be many who are willfully killing children
>>> but I can't imagine a mandate on who can't have them.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>
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>



From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Sat Nov 15 02:46:41 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 21:46:41 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] asking for prayer
In-Reply-To: <BAY113-DS614EA347B97F0C315C627EB110@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY113-DS466A7E567BD6667E46C60EB160@phx.gbl>
	<4383d01d0811140712p16845a3ekb4209eee6d64249@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY113-DS5F00916BEFABE037C521CEB160@phx.gbl>
	<375189E774B946CE9D0DD7763292BB9E@bassclef>
	<4383d01d0811141547x6524a073h22217d4d230feee2@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY113-DS614EA347B97F0C315C627EB110@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811141846s2ca080ces4fa73c0bf39c30fc@mail.gmail.com>

Well, to get you started, I'd contact someone in your town who can
work with autistic or special needs kids and horses at the same time.
I know that narrows it down a lot, but I'd start with an academy or
stable.  Maybe there's someone who's amazing enough to work with Paul
and Jesse and get them out there and get them physically active.
Equestrianism is a good sport for kids who can't throw the ball.  When
I rode horses, someone stood beside me and just gave me clock
positions to turn my horse's head towards.  But for now, Paul and
Jessehave gotta start doing certain things like verbalizing and
perhaps not screaming so much.  And, if Paul likes music so much, let
him get into it as much as he can.  Can he sing?  I've heard of blind
people who have amazing powers over the gift of music.  I don't want
you to think that your twin boys are savants or anything because
savantism means they would have to be cared for for the rest of their
lives.  Not that I hate savants or anything, but I've watched a news
clip about them, and it amazes me what they can do, but i awes me to
tears what they cannot do.  I'm sure your boys will be able to cope
with their disorders/challenges.  My aunt has a son with Asperger's
syndrome, and he's on medications and a special diet and vitamins and
stuff.  He does superbly well in school and altar serves for his
church.
Beth

On 11/14/08, Barbara Hammel <poetlori8 at msn.com> wrote:
> Paul loves music and knows the words to over 100 songs.  I'd love to try
> horseback riding but haven't had the nerve or opportunity to try it yet.
> Barbara
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 5:47 PM
> To: "tribble" <lauraeaves at yahoo.com>; "Faith-talk,for the discussion of
> faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] asking for prayer
>
>> Music is a good way to get through to autistic children.  Horseback
>> therapy is also a good way to get through to them as well.
>> Beth
>>
>> On 11/14/08, tribble <lauraeaves at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> Wow Barbara -- that is a challenge you have taken on, and I am sure the
>>> Lord
>>> will bless your efforts even if it seems impossible at times. Autism is a
>>> difficult problem to handle.  I'll remember you in my prayers and hope
>>> that
>>> little bit can help.
>>> --le
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Barbara Hammel" <poetlori8 at msn.com>
>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 9:47 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] asking for prayer
>>>
>>>
>>> On the contrary, they don't want their blind themselves.  I know, some
>>> parents do keep them, but many don't.
>>> In fact, I'll tell you the whole story.
>>>
>>> We waited for a year to adopt domestically but because of my being blind
>>> and
>>> my husband being much older than me, we were never chosen by a birth
>>> mother--or our portfolio was never shown.  That's neither here nor there
>>> now
>>> because it's the past.  Only the workers know for sure and maybe they'll
>>> have to answer one day.
>>>
>>> So September of 04 I called to check on our status and they asked if we'd
>>> thought about going international.  (Of course, blind parents would make
>>> excellent parents for a blind child.)  We said yes we could do that.
>>> They
>>> told us about a little boy in Hong Kong who was four years old.  We saw
>>> video and decided that autism just might be more than we could handle so
>>> said no to him.  While we were waiting to hear about another
>>> four-year-old
>>> boy in the Phillipines, a family wanted one of the ladies to go with them
>>>
>>> to
>>> China to help them through the process.
>>>
>>> While she was there, in November, she asked the Chinese lady if there
>>> were
>>> any blind children.  You see, there is a list of children of promise that
>>> some Asian countries list their special needs children on.  China does
>>> not
>>> put blind children on this list because they figure no one will want
>>> them.
>>>
>>> The lady checked and very shortly reported to the American that they did
>>> have two two-year-olds.  And, yes, they were twins.  I had always wanted
>>> twins.
>>>
>>> We got all our paperwork done by the first of January and miraculously
>>> the
>>> twins were okayed for just us.  If they'd gone on the regular list they'd
>>> have been there for anyone.
>>>
>>> Our dossier got to China, after taking only three weeks to translate it,
>>> and
>>> arrived just before the New Year which is a fifteen day holiday.  At the
>>> end
>>> of April we finally heard that we'd been approved.
>>>
>>> On our seventh anniversary we walked in to the adoption center in Kunming
>>>
>>> to
>>> receive our children.
>>>
>>> And as you saw in an earlier post, ironically, the thing I didn't want I
>>> ended up with double.
>>>
>>> I know God does not give us more than we can handle but for the past
>>> three
>>> years this family has barely been able to keep our noses out of the
>>> water.
>>> I just keep praying that one day we'll look back on these days and not
>>> believe how awful they were.  And maybe they just seem that way because
>>> for
>>> the first few months all both did was scream.  Then this past January
>>> Jesse
>>> screamed nonstop for six months because it took that long to find the
>>> hernias.  Praise be for their teacher who discovered one.  Then two
>>> months
>>> later Paul started screaming and hurting anyone who came near him.
>>>
>>> This time I think God gave us a bite that was too big to swallow.  But He
>>> knows what He's doing and no matter how little or much I teach them, as
>>> long
>>> as we try our best to love them the best way we know how, God will work
>>> His
>>> plan with them.  I just wish He would enlighten me.
>>>
>>> Barbara
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>> Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 9:12 AM
>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] asking for prayer
>>>
>>>> Well, I'll pray for them.  That's nice you've adopted twtin boys from
>>>> China who are blind.  You would think the Chinese wouldn't allow that
>>>> to happenh because they don't want their blind outside of China or
>>>> they don't want their blind to see the world.  Anyway, I'd like to
>>>> adopt special needs children myself if I get married.  Good luck.
>>>> Beth
>>>>
>>>> On 11/14/08, Barbara Hammel <poetlori8 at msn.com> wrote:
>>>>> Since I am new to this list, most of you may not know that my husband
>>>>> and
>>>>> I
>>>>> adopted twin boys from China three years ago.  They are blind and on
>>>>> the
>>>>> autism spectrum of disorders.
>>>>> Well, constipation has been an ongoing occurrence with both of them.
>>>>> Jesse
>>>>> did have double hernias that were taken care of in late summer.  But
>>>>> now
>>>>> Paul spent last weekend in the hospital to clear him out but he is not
>>>>> back
>>>>> to normal.
>>>>> The request is that we and the doctors would have wisdom as to how to
>>>>> help
>>>>> this child get back to his bright sunny self.  He has missed quite a
>>>>> bit
>>>>> of
>>>>> school in the last few weeks.
>>>>> And yes, should anyone suggest, they are already on Miralax which is a
>>>>> natural stool softener.
>>>>> Barbara
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>
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From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Sat Nov 15 02:57:36 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 21:57:36 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Carmel Alert
In-Reply-To: <20081114213424.10644CCBDA@relay04.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
References: <20081114213424.10644CCBDA@relay04.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811141857k1c2765ccw111d9143e4d776e4@mail.gmail.com>

Just so we all know, I am pro Israel.  Give Israel its land, and let
the Jews and Christians live together in peace.  That's the solution.
Don't let the Muslims get any of it.  But let's not discriminate.  I
wish there was a world in which we wouldn't discriminate against
others' faiths and stuff.  But that's just me speaking.
Beth

On 11/14/08, Linda Mentink <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I get this bulletin every week.  I know we are in the last days.  Read on.
>
>
>
> []
>
> Oversight Board :  Pastor Mike Fryer,  Sid Roth -
> Messianic Vision,  Motte Sircus
>
> The CARMEL ALERT Nov 14th 2008
> A compilation of news reports from the past week
> for the information of those committed to praying
>   for Israel  and the salvation of the Jewish  people.
>
> Stefan's Comment:  The Words of the Prophets Are Written on the Subway Walls
>>Jeremiah 14:13-14 "Then I said, "Ah, Lord GOD!
>>Behold, the prophets say to them, 'You shall not
>>see the sword, nor shall you have famine, but I
>>will give you assured peace in this place.' And
>>the LORD said to me, "The prophets prophesy lies
>>in My name. I have not sent them, commanded
>>them, nor spoken to them; they prophesy to you a
>>false vision, divination, a worthless thing, and
>>the deceit of their heart.  (NKJ)
>>
>>Back in the days of Jeremiah and the prophets,
>>the people of Israel had the word of God, at
>>least some of it. They had the books of Moses
>>that include Gods instructions on the things
>>that matter to Him and are close to His heart.
>>God went into much detail in explaining what He
>>does not approve of and what is an abomination
>>in His sight. He also noted, on many occasions,
>>that if the children of Israel do not walk in
>>His ways and obey the voice of the Lord that He
>>would punish them harshly and remove them from
>>the land of inheritance that He had given to them.
>>
>>The children of Israel did much evil in the eyes
>>of God such as (amongst many other things)
>>worshipping other gods, sacrificing to them,
>>burning incense to them and building alters to
>>them. Gods word stated very clearly what would
>>happen if the people performed these
>>abominations. The false prophets in Jeremiah's
>>time stood up and spoke directly against what
>>God had said, and that despite all the evil that
>>they were doing they would continue to prosper and dwell securely in the
>> land.
>>
>>The true prophets of old, sent by God, were the
>>ones who stood up and told everyone the bad
>>news, or the news that no one wanted to hear
>>that usually went something along the lines of
>>"repent of your wicked ways, return to the Lord
>>and He will forgive you, but if you continue in
>>them He will kick you out of the land, smite you
>>with the sword and so on...". These words were
>>not listened to and the prophets who spoke them
>>were persecuted and mocked instead. As Yeshua
>>said in Matt 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the
>>one who kills the prophets and stones those who
>>are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather
>>your children together, as a hen gathers her
>>chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! (NKJ).
>>Paul also warned of such men who would rise up
>>in the latter days in 2 Tim 4:3-4 "For the time
>>will come when they will not endure sound
>>doctrine, but according to their own desires,
>>because they have itching ears, they will heap
>>up for themselves teachers and they will turn
>>their ears away from the truth, and be turned
>>aside to fables.(NKJ) Obviously not much is new
>>under the sun as King Solomon wisely said.
>>
>>Those fables that Paul is speaking about are the
>>same fables, unsound doctrines and non-truths
>>that the false prophets were declaring in the
>>time of Jeremiah by saying to the people that
>>they will have peace and be secure and prosper
>>when the very word of God said the exact
>>opposite about those who worshipped idols and did evil in the sight of God.
>>
>>Today it is not much different. There are many
>>so called / self proclaimed 'prophets' walking
>>around and declaring all kinds of 'words' that
>>go directly against God's word. Prophecies are
>>coming out saying that the world situation is
>>going to get better or that God is going to
>>restore and bless certain countries that very
>>obviously not standing with or supporting
>>Israel. There are many prosperity doctrines
>>being proclaimed throughout the congregations of
>>the world and many people are buying into them.
>>I believe that God wants to bless us and give us
>>the best (which in many cases His best is a
>>little different from our best. The 'best' car
>>for me is a Ferrari but God's best car for us
>>may be something a little different - see Isaiah
>>55:8-9 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
>>nor are your ways My ways...") but still God's
>>word is very clear on what is going to happen in
>>the world, and to believers in particular,
>>during the end days. Persecution, death and
>>tribulations. Nations that deal unjustly with
>>Israel will be judged harshly (even thought in
>>many cases it is God Himself who prompts those
>>nations against Israel in the first place), not prosper.
>>
>>Amongst all these terrors we also have hope.
>>Yeshua said not to worry about these things
>>because He has overcome the world and in the
>>book of Daniel (11:32) it is written that those
>>who know their God will carry out great
>>exploits.  Times are becoming darker and we need
>>to be able to discern between what comes from
>>God and what is of the flesh, or, the deceit of
>>our own hearts. God's word is our standard and
>>the light unto our feet and everything is to be
>>measured by it along with the Holy Spirit who
>>helps us to walk in all truth. God, through His
>>spirit, also gives us a spirit of discernment so
>>that we can see what is from Him and what is
>>not, as God's Ruach (Spirit) cannot go against His own word.
>>Now is the time to burrow deep into the word of
>>God, to place His truths as the foundations of
>>our lives and allow His sprit to sharpen us so
>>that the evil one will not be able to deceive us in these perilous times.
>
> The Lord bless you as you bless Israel by
> standing in defense of her right to exist on the
> land given to th Jewish people by the God of
> Israel Lets pray that Israel will turn back to
> their God.  Do not be silent, but share this with
> your fellow Christians, share it with your
> pastors, and with anyone you have a chance to
> speak to. Lets also pray for that breakthrough to
> the Muslims,  and please remember to pray for our
> son Jordan, and all of his fellow soldiers in the IDF.
>
> Shabbat Shalom  ....    David & Josie
>
> THIS WEEKS NEWS REPORTS
>
> 1. Israeli Lightly Wounded As Rocket Barrage Hits
> Negev     Har Aretz News    Nov 14th
>       A barrage of rockets fired from the Gaza
> Strip exploded in the western Negev on Friday
> morning, leaving one Israeli lightly
> wounded.   The strikes began in the early hours
> of Friday when eight Qassams exploded in and
> around the southern city of Sderot. Another five
> rockets, claimed by Hamas to be of the Grad type,
> struck Ashkelon a few hours later.   One Israeli
> suffered shrapnel wounds and another four were
> treated for shock after the first eight rockets
> exploded in Sderot and in a kibbutz nearby. Two
> of the rockets that hit Sderot damaged local
> buildings.   Immediately after the initial
> barrage, an Israel Air Force air craft fired a
> missile at a rocket-launching area in the
> northern Gaza Strip, wounding two gunmen.
> The two gunmen named as members of the Islamic
> Jihad militant group. Hamas claimed
> responsibility for all of the rockets fired on
> Friday.  Meanwhile, Israel on Thursday delivered
> a message to Hamas via Egyptian intermediaries
> indicating that while it has no interest in
> escalating tensions along the Gaza border, it
> would retaliate against any attempt by the
> Islamist group to carry out attacks.
>
> 2.  Ceremonies Around the World Remember
> Kristallnacht    Jerusalem Post   Nov 9th
>      More than 150 Jewish communities across
> Europe kept the lights of their local synagogues
> on overnight Sunday, as the Jewish world marked
> the 70th anniversary of Kristallnacht - the Night
> of the Broken Glass.  The notorious 1938 Nazi
> pogrom was the first in a series of violent riots
> that effectively began Nazi Germany's attempt to
> destroy European Jewry.  During November 9-10,
> 1938, hundreds of synagogues and Jewish homes
> were burned down, tens of thousands of Jews were
> arrested and deported to concentration camps, and
> over 90 Jews were murdered.  The World Zionist
> Organization initiative, calling on rabbis and
> community leaders turn on all the lights in their
> synagogues - as well as to light candles and
> torches - was meant to commemorate the pogrom in a highly symbolic way
>
> 3. With Obama at Helm, Iranian Threat Looms Large    Israel Today News Nov
> 9th
>       With President-elect Barack Obama ready to
> assume power in the most powerful nation on
> earth, Israel faces the grave prospect of a
> nuclear Iran. Barry Rubin, director of the Global
> Research in International Affairs Center, says he
> is worried about Obama's stated intention to
> "conciliate with our enemies, not support our
> friends. That worries me a great deal."  Rubin
> said that while the Israeli-Palestinian situation
> is not likely to be vastly affected by any
> American president, the more serious threat is a
> nuclear Iran and the "extremely serious strategic
> challenge which affects 20 countries or more.  We
> have every reason to believe that [Obama] will
> take a relatively soft approach, whether or not
> he holds direct negotiations or indirect
> negotiations" with Iran, Rubin told a news
> briefing in Jerusalem last week. "We cannot
> expect that he will take a tougher line on
> sanctions and pressures, and he will not persuade
> Tehran that he's going to do so. This will have
> the predictable effect that the Iranians are
> going to push ahead on nuclear weapons as fast as
> they have with much less concern over the consequences."
>       While Israeli leaders welcomed Obama's
> election and said they expect the "special
> strategic relationship" between the two countries
> to continue, signs of strain quickly emerged. A
> day after the election, Foreign Minister Tzipi
> Livni publicly condemned Obama's plans to talk to
> Iran.  "We live in a neighborhood in which
> dialogue?in a situation where you have brought
> sanctions, and you then shift to dialogue?is
> liable to be interpreted as weakness," Livni
> said. Asked if she supported the US dialogue with
> Iran, Livni replied: "The answer is no."
> Some Israelis are jealous of a charismatic figure
> that galvanized a nation, a dynamic missing in
> Israeli politics. As Israel heads toward its own
> elections, no such visionary leader has risen
> up.   But others expressed misgivings about
> Obama's policies toward Israel. An editorial in
> the right-wing Israel National News said Obama's
> readiness to sit down with an adversary comes
> from his "limited experience in international
> affairs. One who surrenders and retreats in hopes
> of gaining a little peace places his own survival
> in jeopardy," the editorial said. "Such has been
> Israel's experience at least since the year 2000,
> and such will be the experience of the United
> States if it sacrifices the interests of its
> allies in the pursuit of facile and elusive
> 'solutions.'"   More cause for concern came from
> the Arab press. The Lebanese newspaper al-Ahbar
> reported that Obama told Palestinian President
> Mahmoud Abbas in secret that he supports a
> Palestinian state and Arab "rights to East Jerusalem."
>
> 4. Livni Rejects Olmert's Call for Total
> Surrender    Israel Today News   Nov 11th
>      Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni, head
> of the ruling Kadima Party, distanced herself on
> Tuesday from remarks by caretaker Prime Minister
> Ehud Olmert to the effect that Israel should meet
> nearly all Arab territorial demands.   Livni told
> Army Radio that Olmert's positions regarding the
> peace process are today irrelevant, and that she
> will not allow the deposed prime minister to
> influence the policy decisions of the next
> government to be elected in February.   A day
> earlier Olmert used a memorial ceremony marking
> the 13th anniversary of the assassination of
> former Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin as a platform
> to push his defeatist positions.   "We must
> concede parts of the homeland we have prayed for
> and dreamt of for generations," said Olmert. "We
> must relinquish Arab neighborhoods in Jerusalem,
> and return to that territory which comprised the
> State of Israel until 1967, with the necessary
> amendments stemming from the realities created on ground."
>       Olmert's critics on the Right, meanwhile,
> pointed out that Olmert was grossly
> misrepresenting the legacy of Rabin, whose own
> political doctrine far more closely resembled
> that of right-wing leader Benjamin Netanyahu and
> his colleagues.  In his final Kenesset speech
> just days before he was murdered, Rabin stated
> forcefully that Israel "will not return to the
> June 4, 1967 lines."  Rabin also pledged that he
> would never surrender any part of Jerusalem to
> the Palestinian Authority, nor "uproot a single
> settlement in the framework of the interim agreement."
>
> 5. Netanyahu Will Halt Land-or-Peace Process
> After All    For Zions Sake News Report   Nov 12
>      The office of Likud Party and Knesset
> opposition leader Benjamin Netanyahu on Tuesday
> clarified that if elected prime minister in
> Israel's upcoming general election, he will halt
> the current land-for-peace process with the
> Palestinians, despite reports this week to the
> contrary.   Netanyahu spokeswoman Dina Libster
> confirmed to the Associated Press that the Likud
> leader had plans to put territorial negotiations
> on hold and focus on helping the Palestinians
> stabilize and grow their economy.   Libster said
> Netanyahu views the land-for-peace negotiations
> that have been going on for over 15 years, and
> accelerated over the past year by US President
> George W. Bush, as a dismal failure.   "Netanyahu
> does not want to halt talks, but he believes it's
> premature to talk about a final peace deal, and
> sharing control of Jerusalem is out of the
> question," Libster said.  She noted that the
> Palestinians regularly point to their economic
> plight source of their terrorist tendencies, and
> so obviously that situation must be remedied
> before any viable agreement on other issues can be reached.
> Earlier this week Israeli media reported that
> Netanyahu had apparently backtracked on his
> position after meeting with and coming under
> pressure from international peace envoy Tony
> Blair and US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice.
>
> 6.  Israel Infuriated by U.K. Plan to Label West
> Bank Produce    Ha Aretz News   Nov 14th
>      Relations between Israel and Britain
> remained strained on Thursday over Downing
> Street's intention to label products manufactured
> in West Bank settlements, a week before the
> expected arrival of British Secretary of State
> for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, David
> Miliband, to the Middle East.   Miliband, who
> will visit Israel, the Palestinian Authority,
> Syria and Lebanon next week, is expected to talk
> to Israeli officials over the settlements in the
> West Bank and his country's proposed plan to
> label products manufactured in them. "This
> initiative is a serious and substantial problem
> in relations between the two countries, and is
> generating a sense of crisis," a senior diplomat in Jerusalem said.
>
> 7. Obama's Fictitious Pro-Israel Team     by Jan Markell
>        There is a saying in the Jewish community,
> "But is it good for for the Jews?"  Thus, many
> are asking, will the Obama administration be an
> asset or liability for Israel? While many
> Christians place little interest or importance on
> this, this ministry does.  Much is being made of
> several Jews who are now a part of the Obama
> administration. Some seem to think that a few are
> very pro-Israel Jews and that we will thus see a
> new course of American-Israeli relations. I hate
> to burst bubbles but they are dead wrong.   he
> Israeli newspaper Israel National News reports
> that Obama hired a number of Jewish advisors who
> are quite critical of Israel, are anti-Israel
> (yes, some Jews are critical of Israel), and are
> in fantasyland about the Saudi Arabian peace
> intentions.  Those include Dennis Ross, Dan
> Kurtzer, Zbigniew Brzezinski, Tony McPeak, Susan
> Rice, Martin Indyk, and several more. These spell
> serious problems for Israel. Then there is
> Chief-of-Staff Rahm Emmanuel. He was the key
> person in the Clinton administration to make Oslo
> happen in 1992 and 1993. So we have a group of
> Jewish advisors, some of them Jewish, who are
> unfriendly to Israel's settlement policies in
> Judea and Samaria, also known as the West Bank and eager to divide
> Jerusalem.
>
> 8.  UK's Brown: Now is the Time to Build Global Society   Nov 10th
>        The international financial crisis has
> given world leaders a unique opportunity to
> create a truly global society, Britain's Prime
> Minister Gordon Brown will say in a keynote
> foreign policy speech on Monday.  In his annual
> speech at the Lord Mayor's Banquet, Brown -- who
> has spearheaded calls for the reform of
> international financial institutions -- will say
> Britain, the United States and Europe are key to
> forging a new world order.   "The alliance
> between Britain and the U.S. -- and more broadly
> between Europe and the U.S. -- can and must
> provide leadership, not in order to make the
> rules ourselves, but to lead the global effort to
> build a stronger and more just international
> order," an excerpt from the speech says.
> Brown and other leaders meet in Washington next
> weekend to discuss longer term solutions for
> dealing with economic issues following a series
> of coordinated moves on interest rates and to
> recapitalize banks in the wake of the financial crisis.
>       "Uniquely in this global age, it is now in
> our power to come together so that 2008 is
> remembered not just for the failure of a
> financial crash that engulfed the world but for
> the resilience and optimism with which we faced
> the storm, endured it and prevailed," Brown will
> say in his speech on Monday evening.   "...And if
> we learn from our experience of turning unity of
> purpose into unity of action, we can together
> seize this moment of change in our world to
> create a truly global society."  According to a
> summary of the speech released by his office,
> Brown will set out five great challenges the
> world faces.  These are: terrorism and extremism
> and the need to reassert faith in democracy; the
> global economy; climate change; conflict and
> mechanisms for rebuilding states after conflict;
> and meeting goals on tackling poverty and disease.
>
> Quote of the week:     Sky TV News  Nov
> 10th      "  Barack Obama is being hailed as the
> saviour of the world  "
>
> **************
>
> FINANCES: The Carmel Alert prayer points bulletin
> is sent out weekly via e-mail.  We also produce a
> bi-monthly  family ministry newsletter which we
> prefer to send out by postal mail.  Much of our
> literature is on our  website
> at:  www.out-of-zion.com Out of Zion Ministries
> is answering the call to be a blessing and a
> light to the nations.   David regularly travels
> to churches around the world to share the Word of
> the Lord in respect to the Jewish roots of
> Christianity, and to bring awareness of the
> Church's relation-ship to Israel and  the Jewish
> people and her responsibility to partner with the
> Lord in the restoration of  Israel.  We are open
> to  visiting your congregation if  we are
> invited.  We are have a vision to take the Gospel
> to the Jew first and then to the people of other nations.
>        The work of  Out of Zion is made possible
> through the prayerful and financial support
> of  the Body of Messiah.  We encourage you to
> seek the Lord as to how He would have you be His
> & our fellow-workers.   If you wish to become a
> partner in the restoration & salvation
> of  Israel, & the restoration of the Church
> to  her Jewish roots,   please contact us
> at     kiwi at netvision.net.il.  Your prayer and
> financial support will go toward our expenses
> here in Israel and our ministry to the nations.
>
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>



From everettg at successfuladaptations.com  Sat Nov 15 04:23:15 2008
From: everettg at successfuladaptations.com (Everett Gavel)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 23:23:15 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Fw: Nov. 14: Is Homosexuality Innate?
Message-ID: <002501c946d9$e16d3d10$0f8cdd45@IBMB7D6F383D44>

Only because of some recent discussions and comments 
here, I am forwarding this issue.  Linda, I know you 
said it's over, and no worries there, it's over.  But I 
wanted to pass this along in case it had any useful 
info for Beth, her 2 friends, or any others here who 
may have an interest in this topic.


Strive On--for His Glory,
Everett


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "CitizenLink" <citizenlink at family.org>
Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 5:35 PM
Subject: Nov. 14: Is Homosexuality Innate?

CITIZENLINK DAILY UPDATE
Nov. 14, 2008

----------------------------------------------
Nov. 14: Is Homosexuality Innate?
----------------------------------------------

----------------------------------------------
VIDEO
----------------------------------------------
It's "Tossmas" time again. In his Stoplight? video
commentary, Stuart Shepard politely asks retailers to 
please at least
acknowledge the name of the holiday that falls on Dec. 
25. Otherwise,
their catalogs may meet an unfortunate end.

http://capwiz.com/fof/utr/1/BSJTJLGJWJ/HKBLJLGJZT/2630265056

(A-P)

----------------------------------------------
TOP STORY
----------------------------------------------
Video Friday Five: Dr. Neil and Briar Whitehead
by Kim Trobee, digital producer

SUMMARY: Their research demonstrates homosexuality is 
not innate.

The National Association for Research & Therapy of 
Homosexuality
(NARTH) recently held its annual convention in Denver.

http://capwiz.com/fof/utr/1/BSJTJLGJWJ/FFBLJLGJZU/2630265056/

Dr. Neil Whitehead was the keynote speaker at the Nov. 
7-9 event. His
wife, Briar, also spoke.

The Whiteheads are co-authors of My Genes Made Me Do 
It! A Scientific
Look at Sexual Orientation and have lived and worked in 
India, France,
Japan, Afghanistan and the U.S. They currently reside 
in New Zealand.

Dr. Whitehead has published more than 130 scientific 
papers. He holds
his Ph.D. in biochemistry and worked as a scientist 
with the New
Zealand government for 24 years. He has now been a 
consultant for seven
years.

Briar Whitehead is a journalist, researcher, writer and 
speaker. She is
the author of Craving for Love and God Speaks from a 
Little Box.

The Whiteheads spoke with CitizenLink during the Denver 
conference.

WATCH THE VIDEO

LINK

READ THE TRANSCRIPT

1. Dr. Whitehead, you've done extensive research in the 
area of
homosexuality. What have you found with regard to the 
causes of male
homosexuality?

There are multiple causes, and some of them are sexual 
abuse and
failure to identify with the masculine world, sometimes 
a rebellion
against it, sometimes exclusion and bullying by peers, 
sometimes
failure to copy a father.

The twin studies show that genetics could not be a high 
factor. If you
have identical twins, they have the same genes and 
probably the same
family environment. So, if you have identical twins, 
one of whom is
homosexual, will the other be homosexual, as well? Only 
about 10
percent of the time. That means it's mostly not 
genetic.

2. In the United States, there is a lot of resistance 
to helping people
who have unwanted same-sex attractions. Do you find 
that in New
Zealand, as well?

Indeed. There are far fewer therapists in New Zealand 
(interested in
such therapy).

3. Briar, how did you get into all this?

I'm a writer by training. I thought I might look at 
homosexuality; it
just interested me. I found a fellow who had been a 
homosexual activist
and prostitute, who had become a Christian, who had had 
an experience
that was so profound of God's love that he wanted to 
get out of
homosexuality. I met him and I thought, "Wouldn't it be 
good to
do a racy biography of this guy? It could sell well."

We started with interviewing, and I found I had no 
empathy whatsoever.
I was very switched off by what he had to say about 
what he did. And
then God took me on a crisis in which I discovered . a 
series of
emotional dependencies in my life on men old enough to 
be my father. I
could not break these things. I could not shake these 
things. If I
relocated geographically, I would find another one. And 
I would hook in
again, and my emotional world would shrink down to the 
size of this
person who I could not do without.

And God healed me of this. He profoundly spoke to me 
and explained the
reasons for this, and at the end of it I found I was 
able to empathize
with the homosexual person. The book I wrote was called 
Craving for
Love.

4. Dr. Neil, modern psychiatry says that if you treat 
someone for
homosexuality, you are doing them harm. Is that true?

No. There haven't been any studies which have shown 
conclusive,
significant harm. One study, which looked deliberately 
for harm, found
a lessening of suicides afterward. So, therapy must be 
doing a tower of
good.

5. Briar, how do you respond to those who say, "I've 
read your book,
but I don't think that can work for me"?

God deals with us as individuals. There are different 
paths for
different people. We're uniquely made, and God relates 
with us
uniquely. And what heals one person will not 
necessarily heal another.
But there are things you can find in common. When it 
comes to
homosexuality, you can get out of this thing. It's not 
quick; it's a
process. But it is a steady movement out.

FOR MORE INFORMATION
Visit the Whiteheads' Web site, where you can download 
their book My
Genes Made Me Do It! and read about their research.

http://capwiz.com/fof/utr/1/BSJTJLGJWJ/OFCWJLGJZV/2630265056/

Should those who demand "tolerance" be tolerant of 
former
homosexuals?

http://capwiz.com/fof/utr/1/BSJTJLGJWJ/GYFKJLGJZW/2630265056

Don't homosexuals have the right to live in alignment 
with their chosen
values?

http://capwiz.com/fof/utr/1/BSJTJLGJWJ/KNLUJLGJZX/2630265056

Can gay people really change?

http://capwiz.com/fof/utr/1/BSJTJLGJWJ/KXJCJLGJZY/2630265056

Watch a special video report from the NARTH conference.

http://capwiz.com/fof/utr/1/BSJTJLGJWJ/CNEAJLGJZZ/2630265056

(NOTE: Referral to Web sites not produced by Focus on 
the Family is for
informational purposes only and does not necessarily 
constitute an
endorsement of the sites' content.)

----------------------------------------------
NEWS
----------------------------------------------
Good News: U.S. Gambling Regulations Finalized

Two years ago, Congress passed the Unlawful Internet 
Gambling
Enforcement Act (UIGEA). The law gives financial 
institutions a
government go-ahead to block payments to off-shore 
Internet gambling
interests.

And for two years, Rep. Barney Frank, D-Mass., has 
fought to undo the
regulations.

On Thursday, the battle seemed to come to an end, as 
the Treasury
Department and the Federal Reserve Board finalized 
UIGEA regulations.
Banks have one year in which to bring their systems 
into compliance
with the law.

"This is a huge victory for families," said Chad Hills,
analyst for gambling research and policy at Focus at 
the Family Action.
"For the past decade, Congress has tried to pass such 
legislation,
and now it is complete."

- Jennifer Mesko

(A-P / JMM / 30 min.)

----------------------------------------------
Chicago Middle-Schooler Finds Tolerance Hard to Come By

A 14-year-old Chicago-area student has discovered those 
who cry for
"tolerance" the loudest may be the most intolerant.

Just before the election, Catherine Vogt conducted an 
experiment in
political tolerance at Gwendolyn Brooks Middle School 
in Oak Park. On
the first day of her experiment, she wore a T-shirt 
with the words
"McCain Girl" written on it.

"People were upset. They started saying things, calling 
me very
stupid, telling me my shirt was stupid," Catherine told 
Chicago
Tribune columnist John Kass.

"One person told me to go die. It was a lot of dying. A 
lot of
comments about how I should be killed." One student 
even suggested
she should be crucified.

Catherine recorded all of the comments in her journal.

The next day, Catherine wore another T-shirt, this one 
with "Obama
Girl" written in blue. And an amazing thing happened.

"People liked my shirt. They said things like my brain 
had come
back, and I had put the right shirt on today," 
Catherine told the
Tribune.

Candi Cushman, education analyst for Focus on the 
Family Action, called
it a disturbing trend.

"Too often we see tolerance being awarded and promoted 
for only one
viewpoint - the more liberal one - while students who 
dare to express
more conservative leanings are shunned or ridiculed.

"The good news is, there are students who are bravely 
calling
attention to the double standard."

Catherine turned her journal into a report, earning 
extra credit.

- Jennifer Mesko

(A-P / JMM / 30 min.)

----------------------------------------------
Marriage Advocates Respond to Harassment, Intimidation

Ten days after a majority of California voters approved 
a
constitutional amendment to define marriage as between 
one man and one
woman, the "tolerance" is out in full force.

Those who supported Proposition 8 have been 
blacklisted, harassed and
intimidated. Churches have been defaced. Donors and 
volunteers for the
Yes on 8 campaign have been fired or forced to resign - 
just because
they exercised their constitutional right to 
participate in the
political process. And African-Americans have been 
accused of
abandoning civil rights.

"This is the kind of thing we need to bring to the 
attention of
the general population because by no means is the 
mantra of the gay
agenda tolerance; by every definition (it's) 
intolerance and
hate-filled bigotry," said Ron Prentice, chairman of 
Yes on 8 and
executive director of the California Family Council.

"We were attempting to be respectful, but the 
opposition is
actually increasing their rallies, their marches, their 
vandalism - to
the point of sending envelopes with white powder to the 
Mormon Temple
and to other major religious headquarters," he told 
Family News in
Focus before a Yes on 8 news conference. "So we've 
decided we
need to come out assertively against all of this 
activity and
respond."

- Jennifer Mesko

----------------------------------------------
ALSO OF NOTE
----------------------------------------------
Plugged In Movie Review: House

Frank Peretti and Ted Dekker open the door on another 
spiritually based
tale of terror.

http://capwiz.com/fof/utr/1/BSJTJLGJWJ/LTRIJLGKAA/2630265056

----------------------------------------------
Family News in Focus

----------------------------------------------
QUOTEWORTHY
----------------------------------------------
"Character, in the long run, is the decisive factor in 
the life of
an individual and of nations alike."

- Former President Theodore Roosevelt

=======================================================





From dandrews at visi.com  Sat Nov 15 12:54:09 2008
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 06:54:09 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Fw: Nov. 14: Is Homosexuality Innate?
In-Reply-To: <002501c946d9$e16d3d10$0f8cdd45@IBMB7D6F383D44>
References: <002501c946d9$e16d3d10$0f8cdd45@IBMB7D6F383D44>
Message-ID: <auto-000074674233@mailfront2.g2host.com>

If it is over then why did you send this.  You can't have it both ways.

I would like to remind people that all of the 
lists on nfbnet.org exist to support the NFB, its 
activities affiliates, divisions, chapters 
etc.  Everything needs to be connected to 
blindness and blind people in some manner.  None 
of our lists are intended to be places where 
general discussions take place.  There are other lists for this.

This list was originally started as a place where 
blind people could help other with problems they 
might be having at their churches, that might be blindness-related.

While the Division sponsoring this list, and the 
appointed moderator do have some say in what is 
permissible on a list -- I have overall 
responsibility for all our lists and am concerned 
because this one has drifted a bit.

David Andrews, List Owner

At 10:23 PM 11/14/2008, you wrote:
>Only because of some recent discussions and 
>comments here, I am forwarding this 
>issue.  Linda, I know you said it's over, and no 
>worries there, it's over.  But I wanted to pass 
>this along in case it had any useful info for 
>Beth, her 2 friends, or any others here who may have an interest in this topic.
>
>
>Strive On--for His Glory,
>Everett
>
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "CitizenLink" <citizenlink at family.org>
>Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 5:35 PM
>Subject: Nov. 14: Is Homosexuality Innate?
>
>CITIZENLINK DAILY UPDATE
>Nov. 14, 2008
>
>----------------------------------------------
>Nov. 14: Is Homosexuality Innate?
>----------------------------------------------
>
>----------------------------------------------
>VIDEO
>----------------------------------------------
>It's "Tossmas" time again. In his Stoplight? video
>commentary, Stuart Shepard politely asks retailers to please at least
>acknowledge the name of the holiday that falls on Dec. 25. Otherwise,
>their catalogs may meet an unfortunate end.
>
>http://capwiz.com/fof/utr/1/BSJTJLGJWJ/HKBLJLGJZT/2630265056
>
>(A-P)
>
>----------------------------------------------
>TOP STORY
>----------------------------------------------
>Video Friday Five: Dr. Neil and Briar Whitehead
>by Kim Trobee, digital producer
>
>SUMMARY: Their research demonstrates homosexuality is not innate.
>
>The National Association for Research & Therapy of Homosexuality
>(NARTH) recently held its annual convention in Denver.
>
>http://capwiz.com/fof/utr/1/BSJTJLGJWJ/FFBLJLGJZU/2630265056/
>
>Dr. Neil Whitehead was the keynote speaker at the Nov. 7-9 event. His
>wife, Briar, also spoke.
>
>The Whiteheads are co-authors of My Genes Made Me Do It! A Scientific
>Look at Sexual Orientation and have lived and worked in India, France,
>Japan, Afghanistan and the U.S. They currently reside in New Zealand.
>
>Dr. Whitehead has published more than 130 scientific papers. He holds
>his Ph.D. in biochemistry and worked as a scientist with the New
>Zealand government for 24 years. He has now been a consultant for seven
>years.
>
>Briar Whitehead is a journalist, researcher, writer and speaker. She is
>the author of Craving for Love and God Speaks from a Little Box.
>
>The Whiteheads spoke with CitizenLink during the Denver conference.
>
>WATCH THE VIDEO
>
>LINK
>
>READ THE TRANSCRIPT
>
>1. Dr. Whitehead, you've done extensive research in the area of
>homosexuality. What have you found with regard to the causes of male
>homosexuality?
>
>There are multiple causes, and some of them are sexual abuse and
>failure to identify with the masculine world, sometimes a rebellion
>against it, sometimes exclusion and bullying by peers, sometimes
>failure to copy a father.
>
>The twin studies show that genetics could not be a high factor. If you
>have identical twins, they have the same genes and probably the same
>family environment. So, if you have identical twins, one of whom is
>homosexual, will the other be homosexual, as well? Only about 10
>percent of the time. That means it's mostly not genetic.
>
>2. In the United States, there is a lot of resistance to helping people
>who have unwanted same-sex attractions. Do you find that in New
>Zealand, as well?
>
>Indeed. There are far fewer therapists in New Zealand (interested in
>such therapy).
>
>3. Briar, how did you get into all this?
>
>I'm a writer by training. I thought I might look at homosexuality; it
>just interested me. I found a fellow who had been a homosexual activist
>and prostitute, who had become a Christian, who had had an experience
>that was so profound of God's love that he wanted to get out of
>homosexuality. I met him and I thought, "Wouldn't it be good to
>do a racy biography of this guy? It could sell well."
>
>We started with interviewing, and I found I had no empathy whatsoever.
>I was very switched off by what he had to say about what he did. And
>then God took me on a crisis in which I discovered . a series of
>emotional dependencies in my life on men old enough to be my father. I
>could not break these things. I could not shake these things. If I
>relocated geographically, I would find another one. And I would hook in
>again, and my emotional world would shrink down to the size of this
>person who I could not do without.
>
>And God healed me of this. He profoundly spoke to me and explained the
>reasons for this, and at the end of it I found I was able to empathize
>with the homosexual person. The book I wrote was called Craving for
>Love.
>
>4. Dr. Neil, modern psychiatry says that if you treat someone for
>homosexuality, you are doing them harm. Is that true?
>
>No. There haven't been any studies which have shown conclusive,
>significant harm. One study, which looked deliberately for harm, found
>a lessening of suicides afterward. So, therapy must be doing a tower of
>good.
>
>5. Briar, how do you respond to those who say, "I've read your book,
>but I don't think that can work for me"?
>
>God deals with us as individuals. There are different paths for
>different people. We're uniquely made, and God relates with us
>uniquely. And what heals one person will not necessarily heal another.
>But there are things you can find in common. When it comes to
>homosexuality, you can get out of this thing. It's not quick; it's a
>process. But it is a steady movement out.
>
>FOR MORE INFORMATION
>Visit the Whiteheads' Web site, where you can download their book My
>Genes Made Me Do It! and read about their research.
>
>http://capwiz.com/fof/utr/1/BSJTJLGJWJ/OFCWJLGJZV/2630265056/
>
>Should those who demand "tolerance" be tolerant of former
>homosexuals?
>
>http://capwiz.com/fof/utr/1/BSJTJLGJWJ/GYFKJLGJZW/2630265056
>
>Don't homosexuals have the right to live in alignment with their chosen
>values?
>
>http://capwiz.com/fof/utr/1/BSJTJLGJWJ/KNLUJLGJZX/2630265056
>
>Can gay people really change?
>
>http://capwiz.com/fof/utr/1/BSJTJLGJWJ/KXJCJLGJZY/2630265056
>
>Watch a special video report from the NARTH conference.
>
>http://capwiz.com/fof/utr/1/BSJTJLGJWJ/CNEAJLGJZZ/2630265056
>
>(NOTE: Referral to Web sites not produced by Focus on the Family is for
>informational purposes only and does not necessarily constitute an
>endorsement of the sites' content.)
>
>----------------------------------------------
>NEWS
>----------------------------------------------
>Good News: U.S. Gambling Regulations Finalized
>
>Two years ago, Congress passed the Unlawful Internet Gambling
>Enforcement Act (UIGEA). The law gives financial institutions a
>government go-ahead to block payments to off-shore Internet gambling
>interests.
>
>And for two years, Rep. Barney Frank, D-Mass., has fought to undo the
>regulations.
>
>On Thursday, the battle seemed to come to an end, as the Treasury
>Department and the Federal Reserve Board finalized UIGEA regulations.
>Banks have one year in which to bring their systems into compliance
>with the law.
>
>"This is a huge victory for families," said Chad Hills,
>analyst for gambling research and policy at Focus at the Family Action.
>"For the past decade, Congress has tried to pass such legislation,
>and now it is complete."
>
>- Jennifer Mesko
>
>(A-P / JMM / 30 min.)
>
>----------------------------------------------
>Chicago Middle-Schooler Finds Tolerance Hard to Come By
>
>A 14-year-old Chicago-area student has discovered those who cry for
>"tolerance" the loudest may be the most intolerant.
>
>Just before the election, Catherine Vogt conducted an experiment in
>political tolerance at Gwendolyn Brooks Middle School in Oak Park. On
>the first day of her experiment, she wore a T-shirt with the words
>"McCain Girl" written on it.
>
>"People were upset. They started saying things, calling me very
>stupid, telling me my shirt was stupid," Catherine told Chicago
>Tribune columnist John Kass.
>
>"One person told me to go die. It was a lot of dying. A lot of
>comments about how I should be killed." One student even suggested
>she should be crucified.
>
>Catherine recorded all of the comments in her journal.
>
>The next day, Catherine wore another T-shirt, this one with "Obama
>Girl" written in blue. And an amazing thing happened.
>
>"People liked my shirt. They said things like my brain had come
>back, and I had put the right shirt on today," Catherine told the
>Tribune.
>
>Candi Cushman, education analyst for Focus on the Family Action, called
>it a disturbing trend.
>
>"Too often we see tolerance being awarded and promoted for only one
>viewpoint - the more liberal one - while students who dare to express
>more conservative leanings are shunned or ridiculed.
>
>"The good news is, there are students who are bravely calling
>attention to the double standard."
>
>Catherine turned her journal into a report, earning extra credit.
>
>- Jennifer Mesko
>
>(A-P / JMM / 30 min.)
>
>----------------------------------------------
>Marriage Advocates Respond to Harassment, Intimidation
>
>Ten days after a majority of California voters approved a
>constitutional amendment to define marriage as between one man and one
>woman, the "tolerance" is out in full force.
>
>Those who supported Proposition 8 have been blacklisted, harassed and
>intimidated. Churches have been defaced. Donors and volunteers for the
>Yes on 8 campaign have been fired or forced to resign - just because
>they exercised their constitutional right to participate in the
>political process. And African-Americans have been accused of
>abandoning civil rights.
>
>"This is the kind of thing we need to bring to the attention of
>the general population because by no means is the mantra of the gay
>agenda tolerance; by every definition (it's) intolerance and
>hate-filled bigotry," said Ron Prentice, chairman of Yes on 8 and
>executive director of the California Family Council.
>
>"We were attempting to be respectful, but the opposition is
>actually increasing their rallies, their marches, their vandalism - to
>the point of sending envelopes with white powder to the Mormon Temple
>and to other major religious headquarters," he told Family News in
>Focus before a Yes on 8 news conference. "So we've decided we
>need to come out assertively against all of this activity and
>respond."
>
>- Jennifer Mesko
>
>----------------------------------------------
>ALSO OF NOTE
>----------------------------------------------
>Plugged In Movie Review: House
>
>Frank Peretti and Ted Dekker open the door on another spiritually based
>tale of terror.
>
>http://capwiz.com/fof/utr/1/BSJTJLGJWJ/LTRIJLGKAA/2630265056
>
>----------------------------------------------
>Family News in Focus
>
>----------------------------------------------
>QUOTEWORTHY
>----------------------------------------------
>"Character, in the long run, is the decisive factor in the life of
>an individual and of nations alike."
>
>- Former President Theodore Roosevelt
>
>=======================================================
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Faith-talk mailing list
>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get 
>your account info for Faith-talk:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi.com
>
>
>
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.4/1789 
>- Release Date: 11/14/2008 7:32 PM




From wesley.burden at verizon.net  Sat Nov 15 16:18:50 2008
From: wesley.burden at verizon.net (WESLEY BURDEN)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 11:18:50 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] FW: [BlindMen4Christ] A Brighter Tomorrow
Message-ID: <A7FAAA71D14842C0BBC61FC22FADA49B@Buster>

 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindmen4christ-bounces at morales-family.lljfm.net
[mailto:blindmen4christ-bounces at morales-family.lljfm.net] On Behalf Of Stu
(by way of Curtis Delzer <curtis at calweb.com>)
Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2008 10:59 AM
To: Blind men for Christ
Subject: [BlindMen4Christ] A Brighter Tomorrow


Winning Over Worry and Anxiety,


    "Don't worry about things--food, drink and clothes ... don't be anxious
about tomorrow. God will take care of your tomorrow too. Live one day at a
time."

    It's Monday morning. The weekend is over. The alarm clock blares out its
hideous jangle and suddenly you are snapped into the world of reality. First
comes the struggle to get out of bed, then the rush to get to school or work
on time, and then comes the stress of trying to juggle all one's seemingly
endless responsibilities. Or just the opposite may be true for those out of
work.

    Is this how your week starts? And aren't these pressures mild compared
to the ones you face as the day and week wear on?

    We live in a world of ever-increasing stress and worry with school,
work, and family, financial, social, and relational pressures. Not many
people are free from worry of some kind.

    Worry and anxiety are major problems of contemporary society. In
excessive amounts they can take years off your life.

    Some people like to think that things don't bother them. "No problem,"
they say as they put on a brave front and reach for the aspirin or alcohol
bottle to deaden their fears, worries, and anxieties.

    However, it isn't possible to deaden inner anxiety.
Unresolved, it will reveal itself in many ways.

    For instance, George withdraws when he is upset, hurt, or uptight. Susan
talks endlessly to cover her anxiety. Bill chain smokes to avoid facing his.
Harry attacks when he feels threatened. Jack dominates, and Jill
procrastinates. Dennis is a constant complainer.
Joan is a compulsive eater, Fred a compulsive drinker, Tom a compulsive
worker, and Frank a compulsive gambler--all because of unresolved worry and
anxiety.

    Anxiety may also express itself in a physical way.
Stuttering, abdominal pains, high blood pressure, a twitch, allergies,
ulcers, nervous stomach, tension headaches--all have been named by doctors
as symptoms of anxiety and worry.

    Yes, sooner or later unresolved worry and anxiety will win out. When one
fails to creatively talk out his worries, he will act them out in some
destructive way.

    Long ago the Bible pointed out that "a relaxed attitude lengthens a
man's life." Jesus himself said, "So I tell you, don't worry about everyday
life--whether you have enough food, drink, and clothes.... Don't worry about
tomorrow, for tomorrow will bring its own worries. Today's trouble is enough
for today."

    And the Apostle Paul wrote, "Don't worry about anything; instead, pray
about everything. Tell God what you need, and thank him for all he has done.
If you do this, you will experience God's peace, which is far more wonderful
than the human mind can understand.
His peace will guard your hearts and minds as you live in Christ Jesus"

    However, it's one thing to know about God's peace and another thing to
experience it. And as E. Stanley Jones said, "Worry is the interest we pay
on tomorrow's troubles."


Stu
<mailto:K5stu at sbcglobal.net>K5stu at sbcglobal.net
Reading your Bible today will help prepare you for A Brighter Tomorrow!
_______________________________________________
BlindMen4Christ mailing list
BlindMen4Christ at morales-family.lljfm.net
http://morales-family.lljfm.net/mailman/listinfo/blindmen4christ_morales-fam
ily.lljfm.net




From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Sat Nov 15 17:09:32 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 12:09:32 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] FW: [BlindMen4Christ] A Brighter Tomorrow
In-Reply-To: <A7FAAA71D14842C0BBC61FC22FADA49B@Buster>
References: <A7FAAA71D14842C0BBC61FC22FADA49B@Buster>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811150909i3087605bo223438930e785243@mail.gmail.com>

Interesting, Wesley.  I do have problems with worrying, so this one
was good for today.
Beth

On 11/15/08, WESLEY BURDEN <wesley.burden at verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindmen4christ-bounces at morales-family.lljfm.net
> [mailto:blindmen4christ-bounces at morales-family.lljfm.net] On Behalf Of Stu
> (by way of Curtis Delzer <curtis at calweb.com>)
> Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2008 10:59 AM
> To: Blind men for Christ
> Subject: [BlindMen4Christ] A Brighter Tomorrow
>
>
> Winning Over Worry and Anxiety,
>
>
>     "Don't worry about things--food, drink and clothes ... don't be anxious
> about tomorrow. God will take care of your tomorrow too. Live one day at a
> time."
>
>     It's Monday morning. The weekend is over. The alarm clock blares out its
> hideous jangle and suddenly you are snapped into the world of reality. First
> comes the struggle to get out of bed, then the rush to get to school or work
> on time, and then comes the stress of trying to juggle all one's seemingly
> endless responsibilities. Or just the opposite may be true for those out of
> work.
>
>     Is this how your week starts? And aren't these pressures mild compared
> to the ones you face as the day and week wear on?
>
>     We live in a world of ever-increasing stress and worry with school,
> work, and family, financial, social, and relational pressures. Not many
> people are free from worry of some kind.
>
>     Worry and anxiety are major problems of contemporary society. In
> excessive amounts they can take years off your life.
>
>     Some people like to think that things don't bother them. "No problem,"
> they say as they put on a brave front and reach for the aspirin or alcohol
> bottle to deaden their fears, worries, and anxieties.
>
>     However, it isn't possible to deaden inner anxiety.
> Unresolved, it will reveal itself in many ways.
>
>     For instance, George withdraws when he is upset, hurt, or uptight. Susan
> talks endlessly to cover her anxiety. Bill chain smokes to avoid facing his.
> Harry attacks when he feels threatened. Jack dominates, and Jill
> procrastinates. Dennis is a constant complainer.
> Joan is a compulsive eater, Fred a compulsive drinker, Tom a compulsive
> worker, and Frank a compulsive gambler--all because of unresolved worry and
> anxiety.
>
>     Anxiety may also express itself in a physical way.
> Stuttering, abdominal pains, high blood pressure, a twitch, allergies,
> ulcers, nervous stomach, tension headaches--all have been named by doctors
> as symptoms of anxiety and worry.
>
>     Yes, sooner or later unresolved worry and anxiety will win out. When one
> fails to creatively talk out his worries, he will act them out in some
> destructive way.
>
>     Long ago the Bible pointed out that "a relaxed attitude lengthens a
> man's life." Jesus himself said, "So I tell you, don't worry about everyday
> life--whether you have enough food, drink, and clothes.... Don't worry about
> tomorrow, for tomorrow will bring its own worries. Today's trouble is enough
> for today."
>
>     And the Apostle Paul wrote, "Don't worry about anything; instead, pray
> about everything. Tell God what you need, and thank him for all he has done.
> If you do this, you will experience God's peace, which is far more wonderful
> than the human mind can understand.
> His peace will guard your hearts and minds as you live in Christ Jesus"
>
>     However, it's one thing to know about God's peace and another thing to
> experience it. And as E. Stanley Jones said, "Worry is the interest we pay
> on tomorrow's troubles."
>
>
> Stu
> <mailto:K5stu at sbcglobal.net>K5stu at sbcglobal.net
> Reading your Bible today will help prepare you for A Brighter Tomorrow!
> _______________________________________________
> BlindMen4Christ mailing list
> BlindMen4Christ at morales-family.lljfm.net
> http://morales-family.lljfm.net/mailman/listinfo/blindmen4christ_morales-fam
> ily.lljfm.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>



From mentink at frontiernet.net  Sat Nov 15 17:54:53 2008
From: mentink at frontiernet.net (Linda Mentink)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 11:54:53 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Forwards
Message-ID: <20081115175453.CC888CCBE4@relay04.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>

Hi all,

For those of you who send forwards, please don't send them with the 
header; try to remove it so that we don't have to try to find the top 
of the message.  I don't know why Wesley's come through twice, but 
once is sufficient!

Please heed David's post.

Blessings,

Linda




From everettg at successfuladaptations.com  Sat Nov 15 21:32:34 2008
From: everettg at successfuladaptations.com (Everett Gavel)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 16:32:34 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Fw: Nov. 14: Is Homosexuality Innate?
References: <002501c946d9$e16d3d10$0f8cdd45@IBMB7D6F383D44>
	<auto-000074674233@mailfront2.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <004701c94769$ac9d2dd0$3f9ef44c@IBMB7D6F383D44>

Hi Dave, and all,

Point taken, Dave - Thanks.  Sir, while I'm talking 
with you, I have a request about a possible problem 
with the list.  Linda said today something about 
Wesley's message coming through twice.  Well, nearly if 
not every message on this particular list comes through 
twice, to my inbox.  Not sure why this is, but again, 
it's only with this list.  Most messages, if not all of 
them, seem to be addressed to both the general list 
address, and to me personally, both in the "To" field. 
Any idea why this is so, please?  You can see an 
example of what I mean, as your message did the exact 
same thing and in the headers I've left in, below, you 
can see it went to both me and the list.

If it's something on my end, I do apologize, but I 
haven't figured out yet how it could be.  It's almost 
as if it's somehow doing a reply to all when a response 
is sent, but I'm getting doubles of messages I did not 
send out in the first place, so am not sure why it's 
doing this.  In case it is a problem on my end, I'll 
say I'm using Outlook Express.  ;-)

Thanks for any possible help here.


Strive On,
Everett
www.everettgavel.com


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
To: "Everett Gavel" 
<EverettG at successfuladaptations.com>; "Faith-talk, for 
the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2008 7:54 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Fw: Nov. 14: Is Homosexuality 
Innate?


If it is over then why did you send this.  You can't 
have it both ways.

I would like to remind people that all of the
lists on nfbnet.org exist to support the NFB, its
activities affiliates, divisions, chapters
etc.  Everything needs to be connected to
blindness and blind people in some manner.





From steve.jacobson at visi.com  Sun Nov 16 04:32:26 2008
From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 22:32:26 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] List Redistribution
Message-ID: <auto-000074727422@mailfront2.g2host.com>

For some years, I have assisted Dave Andrews with technical problems on this list and I have enjoyed it.  Changes in 
how we are distributing our many lists means that Dave is going to be the technical person for this list as he has been for 
a number of others.  

After this past week of discussions, I hope that we can keep one thing in mind.  There are many places people can go to 
debate various aspects of lifestyles and of relition, but there is only one place that a blind person can go who needs 
some help to resolve problems in his or her church and that is this very list.  It would be sad indeed if someone having 
such difficulties dared not come here for fear of being judged negatively for something unrelated to the problem for which 
help was needed.  This seems like a good place to stop, so I will do just that.  Thanks for your consideration.

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson





From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Sun Nov 16 04:46:53 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 22:46:53 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] List Redistribution
References: <auto-000074727422@mailfront2.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <8AFC0089311048F78641E4DF33D55FB7@Alan>

Steve,
I would like to propose, gently and in kindness, that perhaps the name of this list, "Faith Talk" while short and to the point is, perhaps, too generic?  It seems to imply that all matters relating to faith are welcome.  If the name of the group more accurately reflected the purpose of the group, we might not stray off into these areas that go beyond the scope of the list's intent.  Just some thoughts.


+-+-+-

   O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! 
Psalms 8:9

~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
To: <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2008 10:32 PM
Subject: [Faith-talk] List Redistribution


> For some years, I have assisted Dave Andrews with technical problems on this list and I have enjoyed it.  Changes in 
> how we are distributing our many lists means that Dave is going to be the technical person for this list as he has been for 
> a number of others.  
> 
> After this past week of discussions, I hope that we can keep one thing in mind.  There are many places people can go to 
> debate various aspects of lifestyles and of relition, but there is only one place that a blind person can go who needs 
> some help to resolve problems in his or her church and that is this very list.  It would be sad indeed if someone having 
> such difficulties dared not come here for fear of being judged negatively for something unrelated to the problem for which 
> help was needed.  This seems like a good place to stop, so I will do just that.  Thanks for your consideration.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Steve Jacobson
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com


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From dandrews at visi.com  Sun Nov 16 04:51:39 2008
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 22:51:39 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Fw: Nov. 14: Is Homosexuality Innate?
In-Reply-To: <004701c94769$ac9d2dd0$3f9ef44c@IBMB7D6F383D44>
References: <002501c946d9$e16d3d10$0f8cdd45@IBMB7D6F383D44>
	<auto-000074674233@mailfront2.g2host.com>
	<004701c94769$ac9d2dd0$3f9ef44c@IBMB7D6F383D44>
Message-ID: <auto-000074728057@mailfront2.g2host.com>

I may have done a reply to all -- I don't remember.  I will check the 
list settings.

Dave

At 03:32 PM 11/15/2008, you wrote:
>Hi Dave, and all,
>
>Point taken, Dave - Thanks.  Sir, while I'm talking with you, I have 
>a request about a possible problem with the list.  Linda said today 
>something about Wesley's message coming through twice.  Well, nearly 
>if not every message on this particular list comes through twice, to 
>my inbox.  Not sure why this is, but again, it's only with this 
>list.  Most messages, if not all of them, seem to be addressed to 
>both the general list address, and to me personally, both in the 
>"To" field. Any idea why this is so, please?  You can see an example 
>of what I mean, as your message did the exact same thing and in the 
>headers I've left in, below, you can see it went to both me and the list.
>
>If it's something on my end, I do apologize, but I haven't figured 
>out yet how it could be.  It's almost as if it's somehow doing a 
>reply to all when a response is sent, but I'm getting doubles of 
>messages I did not send out in the first place, so am not sure why 
>it's doing this.  In case it is a problem on my end, I'll say I'm 
>using Outlook Express.  ;-)
>
>Thanks for any possible help here.
>
>
>Strive On,
>Everett
>www.everettgavel.com
>
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>To: "Everett Gavel" <EverettG at successfuladaptations.com>; 
>"Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2008 7:54 AM
>Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Fw: Nov. 14: Is Homosexuality Innate?
>
>
>If it is over then why did you send this.  You can't have it both ways.
>
>I would like to remind people that all of the
>lists on nfbnet.org exist to support the NFB, its
>activities affiliates, divisions, chapters
>etc.  Everything needs to be connected to
>blindness and blind people in some manner.
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Faith-talk mailing list
>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>for Faith-talk:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi.com
>
>
>
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.4/1790 - Release Date: 
>11/15/2008 9:32 AM




From cedarwoman1965 at gmail.com  Sun Nov 16 11:18:33 2008
From: cedarwoman1965 at gmail.com (Bonnie A)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 05:18:33 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] List Redistribution
References: <auto-000074727422@mailfront2.g2host.com>
	<8AFC0089311048F78641E4DF33D55FB7@Alan>
Message-ID: <3FBDDA6AFBB74B3ABE2A82889D09F38B@Bonnie>

I'm in agreement with Alan, here.  If we're limited on our discussion, why 
not change the name of the list?

------
Bonnie Ainsworth
Lincoln, NE USA

Teachers, bankers, and hoot owls sleep with one eye open.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Alan Wheeler" <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2008 10:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] List Redistribution


Steve,
I would like to propose, gently and in kindness, that perhaps the name of 
this list, "Faith Talk" while short and to the point is, perhaps, too 
generic?  It seems to imply that all matters relating to faith are welcome. 
If the name of the group more accurately reflected the purpose of the group, 
we might not stray off into these areas that go beyond the scope of the 
list's intent.  Just some thoughts. 




From lauraeaves at yahoo.com  Sun Nov 16 12:39:05 2008
From: lauraeaves at yahoo.com (tribble)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 06:39:05 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] List Redistribution
References: <auto-000074727422@mailfront2.g2host.com><8AFC0089311048F78641E4DF33D55FB7@Alan>
	<3FBDDA6AFBB74B3ABE2A82889D09F38B@Bonnie>
Message-ID: <A21D9E16BD1640309ECC0A971B153E81@bassclef>

yes, I was thinking of some tongue-in-cheek alternate names for the list --  
like blind-faith (not a good choice), or nfb-faith, which has a "glory 
federation" ring to it...
I think the list has a good name now and shouldn't be renamed...
--le


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bonnie A" <cedarwoman1965 at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 5:18 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] List Redistribution


I'm in agreement with Alan, here.  If we're limited on our discussion, why
not change the name of the list?

------
Bonnie Ainsworth
Lincoln, NE USA

Teachers, bankers, and hoot owls sleep with one eye open.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Alan Wheeler" <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2008 10:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] List Redistribution


Steve,
I would like to propose, gently and in kindness, that perhaps the name of
this list, "Faith Talk" while short and to the point is, perhaps, too
generic?  It seems to imply that all matters relating to faith are welcome.
If the name of the group more accurately reflected the purpose of the group,
we might not stray off into these areas that go beyond the scope of the
list's intent.  Just some thoughts.


_______________________________________________
Faith-talk mailing list
Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
Faith-talk:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/lauraeaves%40yahoo.com 




From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Sun Nov 16 14:35:54 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 08:35:54 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] List Redistribution
References: <auto-000074727422@mailfront2.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <33371686DFED4D778B021306F2D824FF@your4dacd0ea75>

Thank you, Steve.  I also felt that blind-related faith issues was what this 
list was for when I signed on.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
To: <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2008 10:32 PM
Subject: [Faith-talk] List Redistribution


> For some years, I have assisted Dave Andrews with technical problems on 
> this list and I have enjoyed it.  Changes in
> how we are distributing our many lists means that Dave is going to be the 
> technical person for this list as he has been for
> a number of others.
>
> After this past week of discussions, I hope that we can keep one thing in 
> mind.  There are many places people can go to
> debate various aspects of lifestyles and of relition, but there is only 
> one place that a blind person can go who needs
> some help to resolve problems in his or her church and that is this very 
> list.  It would be sad indeed if someone having
> such difficulties dared not come here for fear of being judged negatively 
> for something unrelated to the problem for which
> help was needed.  This seems like a good place to stop, so I will do just 
> that.  Thanks for your consideration.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Steve Jacobson
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.4/1792 - Release Date: 11/16/2008 
10:04 AM




From steve.jacobson at visi.com  Sun Nov 16 15:56:31 2008
From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 09:56:31 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] List Redistribution
Message-ID: <auto-000074758071@mailfront2.g2host.com>

Bonnie and Allan,

I am not the moderator nor am I the person providing technical support so I was not intending to suggest what should be 
considered on topic.  I only raised the question as to how someone that was not approved of by some on this list could 
feel all right about asking the list for help.  The poinht was to simply offer an angle to consider, not to offer something 
with which one has to disagree or even agree with for that matter.  The name of a list is really a very general guideline, 
and the definition of topics.  

On Sun, 16 Nov 2008 05:18:33 -0600, Bonnie A wrote:

>I'm in agreement with Alan, here.  If we're limited on our discussion, why 
>not change the name of the list?

>------
>Bonnie Ainsworth
>Lincoln, NE USA

>Teachers, bankers, and hoot owls sleep with one eye open.


>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Alan Wheeler" <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
>To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
><faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2008 10:46 PM
>Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] List Redistribution


>Steve,
>I would like to propose, gently and in kindness, that perhaps the name of 
>this list, "Faith Talk" while short and to the point is, perhaps, too 
>generic?  It seems to imply that all matters relating to faith are welcome. 
>If the name of the group more accurately reflected the purpose of the group, 
>we might not stray off into these areas that go beyond the scope of the 
>list's intent.  Just some thoughts. 


>_______________________________________________
>Faith-talk mailing list
>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com










From wesley.burden at verizon.net  Sun Nov 16 19:33:23 2008
From: wesley.burden at verizon.net (WESLEY BURDEN)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 14:33:23 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Week 12 of devotional
Message-ID: <5028D0F52C0241EA88AB40C99A00782F@Buster>

 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindmen4christ-bounces at morales-family.lljfm.net
[mailto:blindmen4christ-bounces at morales-family.lljfm.net] On Behalf Of Stu
(by way of Curtis Delzer <curtis at calweb.com>)
Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 12:00 PM
To: Blind men for Christ
Subject: [BlindMen4Christ] A Brighter Tomorrow


Week 12



This weeks  thought that we're fasting from is:  "I'm not that smart".



("I'm not smart enough". "Everyone seems to figure it out except me", etc.)



Some may think this is not that important, but make no mistake, this thought
permeates our thinking and keeps us limited in what we can do, and what
influence

we can have.



It's another thought that the devil uses to try to make us feel inferior.



Most media and institutions of "higher learning" 
are not as smart as they think.



Think about how the media reports on politics, health and the economy.  Who
understands what they're saying?  I don't think they do!  This world's
system

is designed to make you feel you don't know enough about what's going on, so
you will be dependent on what they say you should think, feel and do.



If you're born-again, you are brilliant! YOU HAVE THE MIND OF CHRIST.  His
mind is far smarter than the smartest businessmen, educators, politicians
and

news makers of this life.  And you have His mind!



Let's abstain from the thought: "I'm not that smart".  We're giving it up
for the rest of our lives beginning today! Now let's replace it:



1. You have the mind of Christ.  (1 Corinthians 2:14.)

You have the ability to see things the way God sees, understand the way He
understands, and choose the way He would choose.  STOP listening to any
thought

otherwise.

2. EXPECT wisdom today.  James 1:5-6 says, "If any man lacks wisdom, let him
ask of God who gives to all men generously; but let him ask in faith without

doubting."

3. Psalm 16:7 ".my mind instructs me in the night."  Friends, you are so
smart that your mind is even teaching you while you're sleeping!

4. If you ever feel foolish or less educated than the mentally "elite",
remember: "He takes the foolish things to confound the wise."

5. Don't think small anymore; and don't talk small.  You are made in the
image of God, with His intelligence, His brilliance, His understanding.





THINK IT & SPEAK IT:

I have the mind of Christ.  I think His thoughts and understand His ways!



I will never again submit to the thought that "I'm not that smart" or "I
can't figure it out".  I am smart and I can figure it out.



I expect wisdom today and I expect MY MIND TO INSTRUCT ME IN THE NIGHT! I
make wise and intelligent decisions.



I will never again be intimidated by the mentally 
"elite".  I am made in His image, filled with His 
intelligence, His brilliance and His understanding.



  Stu
<mailto:K5stu at sbcglobal.net>K5stu at sbcglobal.net
Reading your Bible today will help prepare you for A Brighter Tomorrow!
_______________________________________________
BlindMen4Christ mailing list
BlindMen4Christ at morales-family.lljfm.net
http://morales-family.lljfm.net/mailman/listinfo/blindmen4christ_morales-fam
ily.lljfm.net




From mentink at frontiernet.net  Sun Nov 16 22:31:21 2008
From: mentink at frontiernet.net (Linda Mentink)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 16:31:21 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Lists Subjects
Message-ID: <20081116223122.AB665AC9C5@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>

Hi all,

Since becoming moderator of this list, I have been open to what the 
list members want to discuss, as long as we respect each other, and 
speak as people of faith ought to speak.  I believe it best to stay 
away from politics and the like, as there are other places to discuss that.

I believe this list is a place to encourage one another, pray for one 
another, ask questions about the Bible passage you are studying, and 
to ask questions about how we blind people handle or deal with 
situations we find ourselves in in our places of worship, etc.  When 
answering or responding to someone, I have always tried to state 
whether it is what the Bible says or my opinion.  Many others here do 
the same.I'm not tied to my computer, and often don't have it on all 
day.  When the big discussion happened last weekend, I was sleeping 
and/or away from the computer.  Sometimes things get away from us, 
but we seem to be back on track now.  I'm sorry that we lost a number 
of listers, and I hope they will come back.

Steve, if you're still here, I want to thank you for all your help.

Blessings,

Linda




From steve.jacobson at visi.com  Mon Nov 17 01:58:19 2008
From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 19:58:19 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Lists Subjects
In-Reply-To: <20081116223122.AB665AC9C5@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
Message-ID: <auto-000074793180@mailfront2.g2host.com>

Linda, 

You are welcome and thank you for the thought.
On Sun, 16 Nov 2008 16:31:21 -0600, Linda Mentink wrote:

>Hi all,

>Since becoming moderator of this list, I have been open to what the 
>list members want to discuss, as long as we respect each other, and 
>speak as people of faith ought to speak.  I believe it best to stay 
>away from politics and the like, as there are other places to discuss that.

>I believe this list is a place to encourage one another, pray for one 
>another, ask questions about the Bible passage you are studying, and 
>to ask questions about how we blind people handle or deal with 
>situations we find ourselves in in our places of worship, etc.  When 
>answering or responding to someone, I have always tried to state 
>whether it is what the Bible says or my opinion.  Many others here do 
>the same.I'm not tied to my computer, and often don't have it on all 
>day.  When the big discussion happened last weekend, I was sleeping 
>and/or away from the computer.  Sometimes things get away from us, 
>but we seem to be back on track now.  I'm sorry that we lost a number 
>of listers, and I hope they will come back.

>Steve, if you're still here, I want to thank you for all your help.

>Blessings,

>Linda


>_______________________________________________
>Faith-talk mailing list
>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com







From sslucki at chariot.net.au  Mon Nov 17 03:22:27 2008
From: sslucki at chariot.net.au (Stefan Slucki)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 13:52:27 +1030
Subject: [Faith-talk] list discussions
Message-ID: <2C15A275725446E1860B62C32C3A5FE6@stefan706c912c>

Hi everyone,

I believe that this list has very tolerant of lots of comment which isn't 
strictly on topic.
Why, I'm not an nfb member, not even an American and I've not been dumped.

May I ask that we keep the focus on individual posts concerning 
blindness-related issues/help/technologies that can benefit folks associated 
with churches.

Oh and could everyone adjust subject-lines to reflect what they're saying in 
their message?  It'd also help if members didn't repeatedly post other 
list-messages even if blindness related i.e. those who wish to receive the 
blind-men-for-Christ devotionals can subscribe to that list, yes?

Stefan Slucki. 


From kk3f at msn.com  Mon Nov 17 20:01:17 2008
From: kk3f at msn.com (Pat Gormley)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 15:01:17 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] prayer request
Message-ID: <BAY133-DAV7E60FFA8EF38C82037B4E90130@phx.gbl>

I just came back from the forty-second convention of the nfb of Maryland and our Delmarva chapter President is in the hospital with kidney troubles.  He's a minister and a great chapter president.  

From leah_seabury at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 17 20:28:39 2008
From: leah_seabury at yahoo.com (Leah Seabury)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 12:28:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Faith-talk] I am a new user
Message-ID: <319301.7262.qm@web35702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I have just signed up with this mailing list.
My name is Leah I am in NC. I just wanted to say God Bless to one and all.


?
Seabury .M. Leah
"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard
that it should come; and even now already is it in the world." (1 john4:1-3 KJV.)

?


      

From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Mon Nov 17 21:36:01 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 15:36:01 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] prayer request
References: <BAY133-DAV7E60FFA8EF38C82037B4E90130@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <09E35B9BC51B4228B7A4C188F04CA58D@your4dacd0ea75>

Will definitely pray, Pat.  God must surely have a special place in His 
heart for ministers.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Pat Gormley" <kk3f at msn.com>
To: <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 2:01 PM
Subject: [Faith-talk] prayer request


>I just came back from the forty-second convention of the nfb of Maryland 
>and our Delmarva chapter President is in the hospital with kidney troubles. 
>He's a minister and a great chapter president.
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.4/1794 - Release Date: 11/17/2008 
8:48 AM




From wesley.burden at verizon.net  Mon Nov 17 21:41:52 2008
From: wesley.burden at verizon.net (WESLEY BURDEN)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 16:41:52 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] prayer request
In-Reply-To: <BAY133-DAV7E60FFA8EF38C82037B4E90130@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY133-DAV7E60FFA8EF38C82037B4E90130@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <494C0371834442E78CEECF97FEB627E2@Buster>

We will lift him up to the lord in prayer.  When prayers go up the blessings
comes down.

 

-----Original Message-----
From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Pat Gormley
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 3:01 PM
To: faith-talk at nfbnet.org
Subject: [Faith-talk] prayer request

I just came back from the forty-second convention of the nfb of Maryland and
our Delmarva chapter President is in the hospital with kidney troubles.
He's a minister and a great chapter president.  
_______________________________________________
Faith-talk mailing list
Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Faith-talk:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/wesley.burden%40
verizon.net




From wesley.burden at verizon.net  Mon Nov 17 22:11:08 2008
From: wesley.burden at verizon.net (WESLEY BURDEN)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 17:11:08 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] I am a new user
In-Reply-To: <319301.7262.qm@web35702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <319301.7262.qm@web35702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B0A63B918DD540F6B9BE4F3D5AFC1700@Buster>

Welcome to the mailing list lee:

I hope you will find this enjoyable and encouraging.  My name is wesley and
it is nice to meet you.

 

-----Original Message-----
From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Leah Seabury
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 3:29 PM
To: Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
Subject: [Faith-talk] I am a new user

I have just signed up with this mailing list.
My name is Leah I am in NC. I just wanted to say God Bless to one and all.


?
Seabury .M. Leah
"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of
God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye
the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in
the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ
is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist,
whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the
world." (1 john4:1-3 KJV.)

?


      
_______________________________________________
Faith-talk mailing list
Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Faith-talk:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/wesley.burden%40
verizon.net




From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Mon Nov 17 23:31:44 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 18:31:44 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] I am a new user
In-Reply-To: <B0A63B918DD540F6B9BE4F3D5AFC1700@Buster>
References: <319301.7262.qm@web35702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<B0A63B918DD540F6B9BE4F3D5AFC1700@Buster>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811171531l18f53522qfc03ef5988788092@mail.gmail.com>

Welcome.  My name is Beth.  I've been on this list for some years.
Hope you like it here.
Beth

On 11/17/08, WESLEY BURDEN <wesley.burden at verizon.net> wrote:
> Welcome to the mailing list lee:
>
> I hope you will find this enjoyable and encouraging.  My name is wesley and
> it is nice to meet you.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On Behalf Of Leah Seabury
> Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 3:29 PM
> To: Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> Subject: [Faith-talk] I am a new user
>
> I have just signed up with this mailing list.
> My name is Leah I am in NC. I just wanted to say God Bless to one and all.
>
>
>
> Seabury .M. Leah
> "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of
> God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye
> the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in
> the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ
> is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist,
> whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the
> world." (1 john4:1-3 KJV.)
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/wesley.burden%40
> verizon.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>



From mentink at frontiernet.net  Mon Nov 17 23:34:04 2008
From: mentink at frontiernet.net (Linda Mentink)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 17:34:04 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] prayer request
In-Reply-To: <BAY133-DAV7E60FFA8EF38C82037B4E90130@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY133-DAV7E60FFA8EF38C82037B4E90130@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20081117233405.A6900ACA63@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>

Pat, I will pray.

At 02:01 PM 11/17/2008, you wrote:
>I just came back from the forty-second convention of the nfb of 
>Maryland and our Delmarva chapter President is in the hospital with 
>kidney troubles.  He's a minister and a great chapter president.
>_______________________________________________
>Faith-talk mailing list
>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>for Faith-talk:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net





From mentink at frontiernet.net  Mon Nov 17 23:34:46 2008
From: mentink at frontiernet.net (Linda Mentink)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 17:34:46 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] I am a new user
In-Reply-To: <319301.7262.qm@web35702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <319301.7262.qm@web35702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20081117233447.53B2ACCC42@relay04.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>

Hi Leah.  Welcome.

Blessings,

Linda from Nebraska

At 02:28 PM 11/17/2008, you wrote:
>I have just signed up with this mailing list.
>My name is Leah I am in NC. I just wanted to say God Bless to one and all.
>
>
>
>Seabury .M. Leah
>"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they 
>are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 
>Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that 
>Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that 
>confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: 
>and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard
>that it should come; and even now already is it in the world." (1 
>john4:1-3 KJV.)
>
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Faith-talk mailing list
>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>for Faith-talk:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net





From rjs059 at peoplepc.com  Tue Nov 18 03:55:19 2008
From: rjs059 at peoplepc.com (rjs059 at peoplepc.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 22:55:19 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Gianna Jessen
Message-ID: <000601c94931$7a90e0b0$8381fe04@rjige047kjawst>

Has any one ever hear of Gianna Jessen? Her story is amaising. RJ

From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Tue Nov 18 08:08:12 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 02:08:12 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Pray for a Pastor Friend Please
Message-ID: <89A7C6A729A24F9DA6D2EAE3E621F9C9@your4dacd0ea75>

I'd like to request prayer for a pastor who almost got transferred to our Duluth AME (African Methodist Episcopal) church but got one started in a suburb of the Twin Cities.  He's had a lot of laser surgeries due to diabetes complications and is having different other diabetes complications coupled with complications from those eye surgeries.  He's growing a small church, too, and this has created a lot of anxieties for him.  He's a really wonderful pastor and I'd like to see him do well in the position he's in and progress with his health.



"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul," American Humorist Mark Twain

"An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind

"A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV

"Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)

"No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push, 1976.

"With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic," the Late Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation of the Blind.

Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com 





From sslucki at chariot.net.au  Tue Nov 18 09:43:04 2008
From: sslucki at chariot.net.au (Stefan Slucki)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 20:13:04 +1030
Subject: [Faith-talk] Gianna Jessen
References: <000601c94931$7a90e0b0$8381fe04@rjige047kjawst>
Message-ID: <01CE2452C346420B8E1F725F426736FE@stefan706c912c>

Yes RJ,

she came to Australia to speak about abortion law-reform nearly being 
aborted herself.

Stefan Slucki.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <rjs059 at peoplepc.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 2:25 PM
Subject: [Faith-talk] Gianna Jessen


> Has any one ever hear of Gianna Jessen? Her story is amaising. RJ
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/sslucki%40chariot.net.au
>
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Tue Nov 18 13:15:32 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 07:15:32 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Heavenly perspective.
Message-ID: <5C595C682BA14BD682A93CD7E96A34CC@Alan>

This is from Pastor Bob Coy!  I love his radio ministry.  He pastors a Calvary Chapel church in Fort Lauderdale, Florida.

Heavenly perspective

 
Well, the election cycle that seemed like it started four years ago and would never end, is finally behind us. What's settled is settled and America has a new leader waiting in the wings. Of course, roughly half of the nation is ecstatic and the other half is in deep depression.

No matter which group you're in today, I think a biblical reminder is in order.

If you belong to Jesus Christ, you hold dual citizenship. You're not just a citizen of this nation. You are also a subject in an invisible kingdom. In the former you have a president. In the latter you have a wonderful, powerful-but-kind King.

America, like every national identity, will one day pass away and our citizenship will be meaningless. But our place in God's kingdom is secure and eternal. A hundred thousand years after the towering Washington Monument has crumbled into rubble, we'll still be exploring the depths and heights of God's goodness and playing a role in King Jesus' unfathomable plans and purposes.

Just a little perspective, please.

Don't get me wrong. I love this country and I'm so very grateful to be living in this place, and to have been born in this time of history. But it's temporal. Transitory. Passing away. As Paul advises us in Second Corinthians 4:18:

So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal. (NIV)

That's a pretty good thing to remember any time you're battling disappointment. It's also good to remember that when we put our hope in God and in the things of His kingdom, we'll never be disappointed:

Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us. (Romans 5:5)

How is it possible that we can have hopes that are never disappointed? What is Paul talking about here?

He's not talking about human hope, which is usually little more that wishful thinking. This is a holy hope-a heavenly hope. There's a difference between human hope and heavenly hope. How is it different? Heavenly hope is in a completely different dimension. 

You see, my human hope only lasts as long as I am alive, but my hope centered on heavenly things takes me from hope here on Planet Earth to hope in Heaven.

When the bulk of hope is invested in eternal things, you don't get overly worked up about what happens here. When the world throws you a curve ball, your heart just says, "Whatever. I don't care."

Why is this? It is because you realize any disappointments in life will be compensated for with great joys in Heaven. You can be sure that every light and momentary trial here on earth is producing far greater glory on the other side. This is the kind of hope that keeps on hoping.

And it doesn't stop hoping until you reach Heaven.  When you see His face you know that the hope that you've been holding onto did not lead to disappointment.

Most people - Christians included - live their lives as if this world is the main focus and Heaven is only a wispy, fleeting afterthought. Yet life makes sense only when you turn that whole system the other way around. 

Life is very, very short. Life is temporary. But on the other side, it's forever. It's eternal. Now ask yourself . . . If we will only spend a few fleeting years here but will spend uncountable eons there, which place should we be living for?

I've determined not to live for here. I've decided to live for there. I'm now living for the eternal Kingdom of God rather than the crumbling Kingdom of Earth.

Once I switch that viewpoint around, what happens? Well now I can hold onto hope. Why? Because it's only going to be a little while until I'll be there, in eternity. 

How Much Time?

How much longer do you and I have on this earth? We don't know, do we? It might be 50 more years. It could be 50 more minutes.

The fact is no one has a guarantee of even five more minutes of life. As the pastor of a large congregation, I get sad reminders of that truth all the time.

I remember one week a while back in which I had two memorial services to attend within just a few days of each other. I officiated one of these services, but not the other. Both services were for young people. A 38-year-old husband on a bicycle ride. Suddenly, he's gone, leaving three little girls and a little boy. 

A few days earlier I officiated the service of a mom in her early 40s. She lost a two-year battle with cancer and left behind a husband and three little girls. And you're counting on tomorrow? You're assuming how many years?  How much time? 

Please understand-I'm not trying to unsettle your spirit. I'm trying to settle your security.

I want you to put the election, the economy, and everything else that we tend to spend so much of our time and energy obsessing over in perspective. So much of what we invest ourselves in is fleeting and passing away. Meanwhile, the things that will actually endure for eternity end up having to fight for the leftover scraps of our time, thoughts, care and resources.

What are these things?

I'm talking about souls. How much time do we spend praying, speaking and giving to see lost people find new life in Jesus Christ?

I'm talking about kingdom relationships. How much of our conversation with our brothers and sisters in Christ is geared toward encouraging, exhorting, and building up?

I'm talking about righteous acts of compassion and service. How many times do we follow Jesus' example and take the humble servant's role? Remember, Jesus said:

". . . if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones because he is my disciple, I tell you the truth, he will certainly not lose his reward." (Matthew 10:42)

Jesus had a term for investing in eternal things. He called it "laying up treasures in heaven."

There are many ways to do that. Of course, one of them is to help in financing the sharing of the gospel-just as you do when you support the outreaches of the Active Word.

It is only on the other side that you will fully know all you've been a part of through your involvement in this ministry.

Until then, keep "fixing your eyes on that which is unseen . . . for what is unseen is eternal."



Until the whole world hears,



Pastor Bob Coy

+-+-+-

   But God commends his own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners,
 Christ died for us.
Romans 5:8
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net
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From trising at sbcglobal.net  Tue Nov 18 14:00:54 2008
From: trising at sbcglobal.net (trising at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 09:00:54 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Gianna Jessen
References: <000601c94931$7a90e0b0$8381fe04@rjige047kjawst>
Message-ID: <57897C257AE948E98D67C5C20F13749C@nickf1758c2c9d>

Yes I have. It is an amazing story. She survived an abortion, and has 
cerebral palsy because of her premature birth. She has not let that stop her 
though, just as we do not let blindness stop us. I commend her for the work 
she does. 




From trising at sbcglobal.net  Tue Nov 18 14:21:58 2008
From: trising at sbcglobal.net (trising at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 09:21:58 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] baby reaches for surgeon's finger
Message-ID: <28D785545BB947E98B7CC5B33C9B00F6@nickf1758c2c9d>


A picture began circulating in November. It should be 'The Picture of the 
Year,' or perhaps, 'Picture of the Decade.' It won't be. In fact,unless you 
obtained a copy of the US paper which published it, you probably
Would never have seen it.

The picture is that of a 21-week-old unborn baby named Samuel Alexander 
Armas, who is being operated on by surgeon named Joseph Bruner.

The baby was diagnosed with spina bifida and would not survive if removed 
from his mother's womb. Little Samuel's mother, Julie Armas, is an 
obstetrics nurse in Atlanta . She knew of Dr Bruner's remarkable
Surgical procedure. Practicing at Vanderbilt Univ Med Ctr in Nashville , he 
performs these special operations while the baby is still in the womb.

During the procedure, the doctor removes the uterus via C-section and makes 
a small incision to operate on the baby. As Dr Bruner completed the surgery 
on Samuel, the little guy reached his tiny, but fully developed
Hand through the incision  and firmly grasped the surgeon's finger. Dr 
Bruner was reported as saying that when his finger was grasped, it was the 
most emotional moment of his life, and that for an instant during the 
procedure he was just frozen, totally immobile.

The photograph captures this amazing event with perfect clarity The editors 
titled the picture, 'Hand of Hope.' The text explaining the picture begins, 
'The tiny hand of 21-week-old fetus Samuel Alexander Armas emerges from the 
mother's uterus to grasp the finger of Dr Joseph Bruner as if thanking the 
doctor for the gift of life.'

Little Samuel's mother said they 'wept for days' when they saw the picture. 
She said, 'The photo reminds us pregnancy isn't about disability or an 
illness, it's about a little person.'Samuel was born in perfect health, the 
operation 100 percent successful.




From poetlori8 at msn.com  Tue Nov 18 15:14:24 2008
From: poetlori8 at msn.com (Barbara Hammel)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 09:14:24 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] baby reaches for surgeon's finger
In-Reply-To: <28D785545BB947E98B7CC5B33C9B00F6@nickf1758c2c9d>
References: <28D785545BB947E98B7CC5B33C9B00F6@nickf1758c2c9d>
Message-ID: <BAY113-DS5D3BB71B19751E81BBB7EEB120@phx.gbl>

That just gives me chills to read.  I know just how tiny the small hand was. 
Almost eight years ago we lost a 20-weeker.  It's truly amazing how 
well-formed they are that young.  I know, we see lots of 24-week babies 
survive but you truly can't grasp the wonder of how perfect they are even 
that tiny.
Barbara

--------------------------------------------------
From: <trising at sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 8:21 AM
To: "Rod Griffon" <rod.griffon at gmail.com>; "Eric Christine Griffon" 
<Cmarie1181 at hotmail.com>; <BlindWomen4Christ at yahoogroups.com>; 
<Frankswife at aol.com>; "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>; "Rolina Painter" <rolina at gmail.com>; "Jennifer 
Rizzo" <rizzo_ja at hotmail.com>; "Jerry Custer" <voicesraised at gmail.com>; 
"karen schen" <pabloacabra at hotmail.com>; "Patrick Self" 
<himself10 at sbcglobal.net>; "PAUL PELLERITO" <lupapell at pngusa.net>; "Paula 
Ackroyd" <paula0316 at hotmail.com>; "Peter Ackroyd" 
<peterackroyd at hotmail.com>; "Diane Harper`" <adharper2001 at yahoo.com>; 
"Melissa Harper" <streamsandwaterfalls at yahoo.com>; "Sarah Meyer" 
<Sarah.Meyer55 at gmail.com>; "Siscelley Banks" <sgbanks at hotmail.com>; "Teresa 
Batterson" <teresab at bgnet.bgsu.edu>; "Tabea Meyer" <tnmeyer174 at yahoo.com>; 
"Bridgett Jordan" <bridgettdeann at hotmail.com>; "Vickie Seymour" 
<vseym at LSSM.org>; <GarySey at aol.com>; "VENUS ANN CARLSON" 
<VENUS.CARLSON at sville.us>; "Dan Wilcox" <chevelle352002 at yahoo.com>; "Dawn 
Sanchez" <dmssrs1 at yahoo.com>; "sandy" <srherbertson at lipan.net>; "Mike Ellis" 
<emailmee at comcast.net>; "Jason Dougherty" <ildan4life at yahoo.com>; "mary 
wurtzel" <marywurtzel at comcast.net>; "Fred Wurtzel" <f.wurtzel at comcast.net>; 
"The Badgerows" <badgerow at comcast.net>; "Nancy Daily" 
<NancyJDaly at comcast.net>; "William McNeill" <billshalom2nd at sbcglobal.net>; 
"Dennis Griffon" <dgriffon at 5-axis.com>; "Oliver Pinsoneault" 
<opinsoneault at sbcglobal.net>; "Gwynne Jennings" <orrijenn at aim.com>
Subject: [Faith-talk] baby reaches for surgeon's finger

>
> A picture began circulating in November. It should be 'The Picture of the 
> Year,' or perhaps, 'Picture of the Decade.' It won't be. In fact,unless 
> you obtained a copy of the US paper which published it, you probably
> Would never have seen it.
>
> The picture is that of a 21-week-old unborn baby named Samuel Alexander 
> Armas, who is being operated on by surgeon named Joseph Bruner.
>
> The baby was diagnosed with spina bifida and would not survive if removed 
> from his mother's womb. Little Samuel's mother, Julie Armas, is an 
> obstetrics nurse in Atlanta . She knew of Dr Bruner's remarkable
> Surgical procedure. Practicing at Vanderbilt Univ Med Ctr in Nashville , 
> he performs these special operations while the baby is still in the womb.
>
> During the procedure, the doctor removes the uterus via C-section and 
> makes a small incision to operate on the baby. As Dr Bruner completed the 
> surgery on Samuel, the little guy reached his tiny, but fully developed
> Hand through the incision  and firmly grasped the surgeon's finger. Dr 
> Bruner was reported as saying that when his finger was grasped, it was the 
> most emotional moment of his life, and that for an instant during the 
> procedure he was just frozen, totally immobile.
>
> The photograph captures this amazing event with perfect clarity The 
> editors titled the picture, 'Hand of Hope.' The text explaining the 
> picture begins, 'The tiny hand of 21-week-old fetus Samuel Alexander Armas 
> emerges from the mother's uterus to grasp the finger of Dr Joseph Bruner 
> as if thanking the doctor for the gift of life.'
>
> Little Samuel's mother said they 'wept for days' when they saw the 
> picture. She said, 'The photo reminds us pregnancy isn't about disability 
> or an illness, it's about a little person.'Samuel was born in perfect 
> health, the operation 100 percent successful.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
> 



From wesley.burden at verizon.net  Tue Nov 18 15:20:24 2008
From: wesley.burden at verizon.net (WESLEY BURDEN)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 10:20:24 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Emailing: Last Days Ministries Crossing the Great
	Divide
Message-ID: <F2384CDF85C94715AFF1B282649D52B7@Buster>

	


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Crossing the 



Great Divide


By Tom Marshall 


As Christians, we know that God has reconciled us to Himself through the
cross and the shed blood of Jesus Christ. The Apostle Paul says, "Once you
were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil
behavior. But now He has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through
death to present you holy in His sight, without blemish and free from
accusation." (Colossians 1:21,22 NIV) 

Once we were enemies - but now God sees us as holy in His sight.free from
accusation! This was the awesome act of reconciliation accomplished by
Jesus, the Rock of our salvation: that we who were altogether in sin and
darkness should be called into God's kingdom of light! (1 Peter 2:9) 

All of our hope and joy and peace rests on this solid foundation. Is there
any greater force of hope in all the universe? 

For the Christian, there is more to the cross than personal salvation.
Christians have an awesome responsibility in a deeply divided world because
God has given us the ministry of reconciliation. Jesus, on whose shoulders
rests the spiritual government of all things (Isaiah 9:6,7), calls us to
shoulder His yoke and enter into this work of reconciling. 





What we see; what we hear 



Is there any doubt that the world needs the ministry of reconciliation?
Everywhere we look, we are hit in the face with fighting. Marriages end in
bitter quarrels in which children are emotionally beaten. Industry grinds to
a halt in labor feuds. Cities and nations bleed with racial strife. Nations
crush life and breath out of other nations. 

Worldly men and women employ the only means they know in their attempts to
bring peace. Our particular modern tragedy is the idea that pressure will
move the "log jam." If that won't work, pressure is taken to its natural
extreme -violence. We end up shooting one another in the cause of
reconciliation. Why is there this sad contradiction between what we desire
and what we end up doing? 

The Bible reveals that alienation in all its forms resulted from the fall of
mankind. It is now part of our fallen nature. Alienation is the total
inability to understand one another's hearts and minds - and so we are left
with nothing but doubt, suspicion, treachery, betrayal of trust, and
violation of personal pledges and legal treaties. 

What we see before our eyes, if we are aware of conditions at all, is that
bitter gulfs of hatred have split open our world. What do we hear? If we
listen, we hear the world's cries to be healed. It is ripe and ready for our
ministry of reconciliation. Are we listening? 

Some Christians do hear the call to be ministers of reconciliation - but do
we know the resources God has given us to accomplish this work in the world?
Do we know His methods? If not, we will fail as miserably as anyone else. We
need not fail, though. As Christians we can know how to cooperate with God's
methods and His plan. 





The meaning of reconciliation 



To take our place in God's plan for reconciliation, we must first know how
that plan works and how to implement it in our daily lives. Reconciliation
is the process whereby parties who have been at odds with one another are
restored to a relationship of harmony or peace by changing their attitudes
toward each other, or by settling their dispute or disagreement. If we are
reconciled in the deep, true, biblical sense, then innermost attitudes will
be changed. 

The New Testament shows us that reconciliation is costly. God gave His Son,
Jesus, to overcome the alienation that once stood between us by His death
and resurrection. There was a serious rift that had to be bridged in order
for us to be righteous, or rightly related to Him. 

Unless we see this with the eyes of our soul's understanding, we will think
peace with others can be bought by forgiveness alone. But forgiveness, as
mighty a force as it is, is not enough. If we would be ministers of
reconciliation, we must see to the bottom of a matter with the eyes of our
hearts. 





The heart of the matter 



God's attitude toward mankind has always been one of unconditional goodness
and infinite love. The problem is all on our side: We are rebels. We are
disobedient, and we sin. Between us there is a double gulf that we have
neither the ability nor the desire to bridge - the gulf between the finite
and the Infinite, and the greater moral gulf between the sinful and the
Holy. God's attitude toward sin is anger, and it must always be anger. Many
people, including Christians, stumble over this idea. But we must see the
mailer in the right light. 

Let's say a man is walking along the street, and he sees another man beating
a woman. Can he simply overlook such a terrible offense and still call
himself a man? A true man would see it as an offense not only against the
woman; he would instinctively feel it as an offense against his own manhood.
He would be compelled to act against the crime, unable to ignore it and live
with himself. 

In a similar way, sin is more than going against God's laws. It's an offense
against His very nature. He is holy, and all the beauty and goodness of life
come through living in cooperation with laws that govern His creation. Sin
is a hideous, willful violation of this order. More than that, it is a knife
slash at the very face of God. 

Have you thought of sin only as a violation of "arbitrary rules" that God
set up without consulting you? Not in the least. 

Sin is a crime against God. 





What Christ accomplished 



Do you see what we are up against? The very order of creation is at stake.
If there is no justice, no way to punish the crime, all order collapses. 

Judgment was absolutely necessary in order to end the effects of sin.
Forgiveness alone wasn't enough - a price had to be paid. Yet justice can
only be redemptive if its recipient sees its necessity. Even a child needs
to understand the reason for his parent's discipline, and in some sense
agree with its rightness, for discipline to act as a corrective. Otherwise
it will either crush or provoke rebellion. None of us, however, can
understand and agree with God's holy wrath and judgment on sin because we
are too infected with the disease to comprehend its deadly nature. 

There stands God, Who is love itself, bound equally by His holy order and by
His love. Who could atone for our crimes against Him? How could God execute
perfect justice, and yet offer love and pardon to all? Who could free the
beloved but fallen creature who was in no way capable to free himself? 

The Apostle Paul, staring with awe into the depths of this holy mystery,
shouts both the question and the answer: "Who will rescue me from this body
of death? Praise be to God - [it is done] through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
(Romans 7:24,25 NIV) Only Jesus, because He was sinless, because He fully
understood the nature of sin, and because He agreed with the punishment,
could become the Redeemer. When He gave Himself over to be crucified - a
perfect sacrifice - He received the full blow of divine judgment in our
place and made it possible for God to offer pardon with perfect justice. 

In the incarnation God became man, and in the sinless Son of Man, God got a
foothold on both sides of the divide and a place within humanity to change
its heart. In the Garden of Gethsemane, Jesus took our rebellious,
self-centered human will and in Himself, for us, broke that will and made it
do the Father's will. "...Not what I will, but what you will" (Mark 14:36
NIV) He prayed not once or twice but three times, in such moral agony that
it says, "His sweat became like drops of blood, falling down upon the
ground." (Luke 22:44 NASB) It was not His own will Christ grappled with in
the Garden, it was ours, breaking it free from radical rebellion and making
obedience possible. He died, a Man for all men, and a Man as all men. 





His blood, our peace



Now God can forgive our sin if we repent of it and look to Christ as our
Substitute. His just anger is ended and He can have communion with a people
He is making holy. 

This is the part of the process where we enter in. Now the Holy Spirit wants
to begin His work within us. He begins to impart the holiness of Christ - an
active holiness, by which we are changed. To do this, the Holy Spirit gives
us access to God the Father. He teaches us the relationship of a true son to
his Father. He instructs us how to live in a way that pleases the Father, so
our relationship with Him can be deepened. All of this is life-changing
truth in itself and we need to ponder its deeply personal meaning. 

There is, however, another question we must ask: What is reconciled by
Christ's death on the cross? We know that our personal salvation was secured
- but was there more? What does the work of the cross have to do with
marriage breakdowns? With churches that are pulling apart at the seams? With
workers caught up in hostile labor disputes? With nations where races seethe
against one another? 

Paul points us beyond personal - or I should say merely personalized -
salvation: "For by [Christ] all things were created: things in heaven and on
earth, visible and invisible.. all things were created by Him and for Him."
(Colossians 1:16 NIV) Paul declares that, through Jesus, God has set in
motion a plan to "reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth
or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross."
(Colossians 1:20 NIV) 

Do you see this? The "all things" of creation becomes the "all things" of
redemption! This has far-reaching implications - a real, practical meaning
that reaches across the whole fabric of life on this planet. 

We have seen the world smashed by anger and hostility We have heard the
world crying in its pain. What do we, as Christians, have to offer in the
way of help and hope? Only that we are personally saved by the blood of
Jesus - as if we are now one less mess for God to have to worry about? No.
The cross is the divine intervention in all disputes! It is redemption,
reaching as far as sin has gone, to restore all that sin has damaged. We now
hold within us the very thing the world needs: the ministry of
reconciliation. 





Restoring broken relationships 



This was a revolutionary discovery to me some years ago: In human
relationships that have suffered breakdown, salvation is the model for
making a new beginning. 

Our approach to "healing" relationships has been problem solving: Find the
problem, discover a solution and apply it. But there is one minor defect:
This doesn't work. Sit in any divorce lawyer's office or city council
chambers where racial leaders meet to argue over offenses. In any badly
stressed relationship it is impossible to untangle words and establish
objective truth. Few relationships can stand the strain of such a process.
In our human attempts at peace, we lose each other. 

"Problem solving" is just what God does not do. He has never said to you or
me, "Sort out these enormous problems in your life, then come and see me
about our need for reconciliation." He first provides reconciliation through
the cross by the working of His powerful grace. He reconciles us to Himself
as persons. In Himself, He heals the relationship. 

When Adam sinned and hid himself in the garden, God knew there was a problem
as He went walking there in the cool of the evening. But He did not say,
"Adam, what have you done? Let's find the problem and solve it." No, He
said, "Adam, where are you?" 

The way to reconciliation is this: First, put aside the problem, the
agendas, the "negotiating conditions." Step into God's method, which is
grace. 

Grace, in human relationships, simply means doing good to one another - with
no conditions attached. We must put aside our offenses and our agendas. We
must go looking for the one we have lost. Then we will find each other at
the place where we were found - at the cross. 





But suppose...



But even if we find one another, what if we find that love has died, or
trust has been shattered beyond recovery, or respect has been lost and we no
longer understand each other? How can we revive a dead relationship? The
cross is not only God's methodology, it is God's resource. Life begins anew
at the cross. We need to understand how. 

The cross was the outpouring of divine love, but it was poured out through a
human heart, the heart of Jesus. When that happened, divine love was
injected into the bloodstream of humanity - the kind of love that can
regenerate human love after it has died. I have seen it happen at the cross
many, many times. 

The death of Jesus was also the ultimate act of human trust: "Father, into
your hands I commit my spirit." At the cross we encounter a faith that can
revive the strength to trust again after trust has been broken beyond repair
- a faith that can transform the most untrustworthy person into someone
worthy of trust. 

"But I've lost all respect." 

Honor and respect, in the ultimate sense, cannot rest upon outward words or
actions. They come from recognizing someone's value before God, and the
cross is God's ultimate sign of value for every human being. At the cross we
see the other with the eyes of Jesus. This man or woman becomes precious to
us, for we see him or her as the brother or sister for whom Jesus died! 

"But you still don't see. We no longer understand each other...." 

The cross is the ultimate self-disclosure of the heart of God. It is God
reaching out to find us, so that we can fully understand His heart's
attitude toward us. Therefore, at the cross we receive grace that enables us
to let down the walls and disclose ourselves to one another - to seek each
other until we find. 

The cross has never been a "static" event fixed in time. Its work in all of
life is continuously powerful to resurrect, to restore, to bind us together
as never before. 





Do we ignore the problems? 



God, I have discovered, is very interested in solving problems in my life.
He does not start with the problems, but He does not leave us in our
problems either. He begins the work of sanctification. 

Sanctification is the means by which God is conforming us to the image of
His Son. It's part of being in a relationship with Him - a process by which
He changes and teaches us to move in harmony with Him. Sanctification, then,
can be the model for harmony in our relationships with one another. 

How? 

First we must understand the nature of our relationship with the Lord. The
security of our relationship with Him is based on something much stronger
than our performance. It is based on the blood of Christ! Sanctification
takes place in the setting of that security as God begins to work on our
character. We are led to repentance for sins and sinful attitudes, and to
changes in character and lifestyle that bring us more and more into harmony
with the nature of God. As this is happening, we discover increasing joy and
fulfillment as we learn to live for His glory and pleasure, not our own. 

God's design for human relationships has exactly the same characteristics.
When we are secure in our acceptance of one another, we have the courage to
face up to correction of wrong attitudes and behavior, and our characters
and lifestyles begin to harmonize more and more. We discover increasing joy
and fulfillment in not only living with one another but in putting one
another first. 





The answer to every need



Because the world and men and women are God's creation, and sin has ruined
them both, the cross that deals with the sin question is buried in the very
center of our world and the very center of our human lives. It redeems all
things, it reconciles all things, it restores all things. 

The answer to every human need is ultimately found in God's two great works,
the work of the cross and the work of the Spirit. They go together. Without
the work of the cross there is no way for sinful man to stand before a Holy
God. Without the work of the Holy Spirit there is no way for the great
objective work of the cross to become a subjective experience for us. 

Let us glory in them both. 

A teacher as well as a businessman, Tom founded Kapiti Christian Centre and
Servant Industries Trust in New Zealand, and is currently consulting editor
of the magazine Today's Christian. Tom has written books on healing,
relationships, Christian living, and leadership, and is in high demand
internationally as a Bible teacher. Tom and his wife Gabrielle live in
Sydney, Australia. 



  _____  

	




Tom Marshall, 2/21/2007 

 	




Mary
<http://lastdaysministries.org/Articles/1000030834/Last_Days_Ministries/LDM/
Discipleship_Teachings/Mary_of_Nazareth.aspx> of Nazareth	
Article of the life of Mary More
<http://lastdaysministries.org/Articles/1000030834/Last_Days_Ministries/LDM/
Discipleship_Teachings/Mary_of_Nazareth.aspx> ... 	
Melody Green	

Zeal:
<http://lastdaysministries.org/Articles/1000008658/Last_Days_Ministries/LDM/
Discipleship_Teachings/Zeal_Love_Ablaze.aspx> Love Ablaze!	
Enoch had prophesied, saying, "Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of
His holy ones." I More
<http://lastdaysministries.org/Articles/1000008658/Last_Days_Ministries/LDM/
Discipleship_Teachings/Zeal_Love_Ablaze.aspx> ... 	
Leonard Ravenhill	

Your
<http://lastdaysministries.org/Articles/1000008657/Last_Days_Ministries/LDM/
Discipleship_Teachings/Your_Day_In.aspx> Day In Court	
In a very brief and very brilliant biography of a famous English preacher,
one of the greatest preachers that ever preached in America or England, it
says that he had some very strange habits. More
<http://lastdaysministries.org/Articles/1000008657/Last_Days_Ministries/LDM/
Discipleship_Teachings/Your_Day_In.aspx> ... 	
Leonard Ravenhill	

You
<http://lastdaysministries.org/Articles/1000008656/Last_Days_Ministries/LDM/
Discipleship_Teachings/You_Are_A.aspx> Are A Dangerous Generation	
So it is with your generation. More
<http://lastdaysministries.org/Articles/1000008656/Last_Days_Ministries/LDM/
Discipleship_Teachings/You_Are_A.aspx> ... 	
Melody Green	

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From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Tue Nov 18 15:43:20 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 10:43:20 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Gianna Jessen
In-Reply-To: <57897C257AE948E98D67C5C20F13749C@nickf1758c2c9d>
References: <000601c94931$7a90e0b0$8381fe04@rjige047kjawst>
	<57897C257AE948E98D67C5C20F13749C@nickf1758c2c9d>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811180743g45a07c97g5fd83f65dd563f26@mail.gmail.com>

What work does she do?  She sounds amazing.
Beth

On 11/18/08, trising at sbcglobal.net <trising at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Yes I have. It is an amazing story. She survived an abortion, and has
> cerebral palsy because of her premature birth. She has not let that stop her
> though, just as we do not let blindness stop us. I commend her for the work
> she does.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>



From wesley.burden at verizon.net  Tue Nov 18 16:22:14 2008
From: wesley.burden at verizon.net (WESLEY BURDEN)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 11:22:14 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] FW: [BlindMen4Christ] A Brighter Tomorrow
Message-ID: <A9B0A2FEF2834BCDAD1C5C996B78E101@Buster>

 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindmen4christ-bounces at morales-family.lljfm.net
[mailto:blindmen4christ-bounces at morales-family.lljfm.net] On Behalf Of Stu
(by way of Curtis Delzer <curtis at calweb.com>)
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 11:17 AM
To: Blind men for Christ
Subject: [BlindMen4Christ] A Brighter Tomorrow


"UNTIL I WENT INTO THE SANCTUARY..."



"Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end." Psalm
73:17

Why do we have such frustration over the many circumstances in life? 
We are perplexed by the actions and life-style of believers who profess to
be devoted to the Lord. We become confused by issues, decisions within our
church family, and many other circumstances we encounter. David had this
problem as viewed in Psalm 73. He could not understand the prosperity of the
wicked, their wealth and welfare, when their life-style was so averse to
God. He even thought his efforts to follow God and to live godly was in
vain. He said, "When I tried to understand all this, it was oppressive to
me." BUT then he said, "Till I entered the sanctuary of God; THEN I
understood their final destiny."

We cannot understand the ways of man in relation to God. How can they fare
so well and yet be so ungodly and abusive to themselves and others. We, as
David, need to go into the sanctuary. You ask, "Where is the sanctuary of
God?" It is where, with reverential fear and awe we bow with contrition of
heart and brokenness of spirit, and through prayer MEET GOD! It need not be
a church or home or any place in particular. It's when we come in child-like
faith, lifting up our hearts to HIM...HE MEETS us WHERE WE ARE! What an
incredible blessing HE has provided for us to enter into the "very presence
of God." But what happens when we meet God? In His presence, God speaks to
us through the Holy Spirit who dwells within each believer. He gives us HIS
perspective, and an understanding that HE is in control. He will cause us to
lift our hearts in thanksgiving and praise as Paul--"Thanks be to God, who
always leads us in triumphal procession in Christ, and through us spreads
everywhere the fragrance of the knowledge of Him" (2 Corinthians 2:14). We
"see through a glass darkly"...we "seek to know" from our finite
reasoning...we endeavor to walk in the confines of our limited vision. God
simply says, "Fix your eyes on Jesus" (Hebrews 12:2). When situations cause
us great concern, we must realize, this "thing" is so strong I cannot handle
it, it has come between me and God. THEN is when we need to meet God in the
sanctuary. He will meet you and enable you to say with Paul, "No, in all
these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us" (Romans
8:37). FOCUS ON CHRIST!

God has provided for our every need. "For of Him, and through Him, and to
Him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever" (Romans 11:36). Let us
appropriate all HE has purchased for us. It is before His Throne of Grace,
HE gives us the REALITY of His presence with us, the CONFIDENCE of His care
for us, the ASSURANCE of His mighty power to us, and the KNOWLEDGE that HE
is in control, still on the throne, and that HE LOVES us!

David said, "I sought the Lord...and HE heard me...and delivered me from ALL
my fears" (Psalm 34:4). God said, "Call upon ME...and I will show you great
and mighty things which you know not." Let God take control of every phase
of your life..."casting all your care [anxiety, concern, worries, once and
for all] on HIM, for He cares for you affectionately, and cares about you
watchfully" (1 Peter 5:7).


Stu
<mailto:K5stu at sbcglobal.net>K5stu at sbcglobal.net
Reading your Bible today will help prepare you for A Brighter Tomorrow!
_______________________________________________
BlindMen4Christ mailing list
BlindMen4Christ at morales-family.lljfm.net
http://morales-family.lljfm.net/mailman/listinfo/blindmen4christ_morales-fam
ily.lljfm.net




From trising at sbcglobal.net  Tue Nov 18 16:35:05 2008
From: trising at sbcglobal.net (trising at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 11:35:05 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Gianna Jessen
References: <000601c94931$7a90e0b0$8381fe04@rjige047kjawst><57897C257AE948E98D67C5C20F13749C@nickf1758c2c9d>
	<4383d01d0811180743g45a07c97g5fd83f65dd563f26@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B295D53B3F8F449C9A34BF57DD153F52@nickf1758c2c9d>

She is an advocate for unborn babies. She goes on TV and talks to 
individuals and groups about preserving the lives of unborn babies, rather 
than killing them through abortion. 




From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Tue Nov 18 16:43:47 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 11:43:47 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] FW: [BlindMen4Christ] A Brighter Tomorrow
In-Reply-To: <A9B0A2FEF2834BCDAD1C5C996B78E101@Buster>
References: <A9B0A2FEF2834BCDAD1C5C996B78E101@Buster>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811180843k676ec76fod8cad589b2ed3500@mail.gmail.com>

Interesting.  I don't understand why Governor, that wicked but weird
man, is making so much money now and I am making none.  My cousin
wants a healthy pregnancy, but she's having problems herself.  God
works in mysterious way.s.
Beth

On 11/18/08, WESLEY BURDEN <wesley.burden at verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindmen4christ-bounces at morales-family.lljfm.net
> [mailto:blindmen4christ-bounces at morales-family.lljfm.net] On Behalf Of Stu
> (by way of Curtis Delzer <curtis at calweb.com>)
> Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 11:17 AM
> To: Blind men for Christ
> Subject: [BlindMen4Christ] A Brighter Tomorrow
>
>
> "UNTIL I WENT INTO THE SANCTUARY..."
>
>
>
> "Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end." Psalm
> 73:17
>
> Why do we have such frustration over the many circumstances in life?
> We are perplexed by the actions and life-style of believers who profess to
> be devoted to the Lord. We become confused by issues, decisions within our
> church family, and many other circumstances we encounter. David had this
> problem as viewed in Psalm 73. He could not understand the prosperity of the
> wicked, their wealth and welfare, when their life-style was so averse to
> God. He even thought his efforts to follow God and to live godly was in
> vain. He said, "When I tried to understand all this, it was oppressive to
> me." BUT then he said, "Till I entered the sanctuary of God; THEN I
> understood their final destiny."
>
> We cannot understand the ways of man in relation to God. How can they fare
> so well and yet be so ungodly and abusive to themselves and others. We, as
> David, need to go into the sanctuary. You ask, "Where is the sanctuary of
> God?" It is where, with reverential fear and awe we bow with contrition of
> heart and brokenness of spirit, and through prayer MEET GOD! It need not be
> a church or home or any place in particular. It's when we come in child-like
> faith, lifting up our hearts to HIM...HE MEETS us WHERE WE ARE! What an
> incredible blessing HE has provided for us to enter into the "very presence
> of God." But what happens when we meet God? In His presence, God speaks to
> us through the Holy Spirit who dwells within each believer. He gives us HIS
> perspective, and an understanding that HE is in control. He will cause us to
> lift our hearts in thanksgiving and praise as Paul--"Thanks be to God, who
> always leads us in triumphal procession in Christ, and through us spreads
> everywhere the fragrance of the knowledge of Him" (2 Corinthians 2:14). We
> "see through a glass darkly"...we "seek to know" from our finite
> reasoning...we endeavor to walk in the confines of our limited vision. God
> simply says, "Fix your eyes on Jesus" (Hebrews 12:2). When situations cause
> us great concern, we must realize, this "thing" is so strong I cannot handle
> it, it has come between me and God. THEN is when we need to meet God in the
> sanctuary. He will meet you and enable you to say with Paul, "No, in all
> these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us" (Romans
> 8:37). FOCUS ON CHRIST!
>
> God has provided for our every need. "For of Him, and through Him, and to
> Him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever" (Romans 11:36). Let us
> appropriate all HE has purchased for us. It is before His Throne of Grace,
> HE gives us the REALITY of His presence with us, the CONFIDENCE of His care
> for us, the ASSURANCE of His mighty power to us, and the KNOWLEDGE that HE
> is in control, still on the throne, and that HE LOVES us!
>
> David said, "I sought the Lord...and HE heard me...and delivered me from ALL
> my fears" (Psalm 34:4). God said, "Call upon ME...and I will show you great
> and mighty things which you know not." Let God take control of every phase
> of your life..."casting all your care [anxiety, concern, worries, once and
> for all] on HIM, for He cares for you affectionately, and cares about you
> watchfully" (1 Peter 5:7).
>
>
> Stu
> <mailto:K5stu at sbcglobal.net>K5stu at sbcglobal.net
> Reading your Bible today will help prepare you for A Brighter Tomorrow!
> _______________________________________________
> BlindMen4Christ mailing list
> BlindMen4Christ at morales-family.lljfm.net
> http://morales-family.lljfm.net/mailman/listinfo/blindmen4christ_morales-fam
> ily.lljfm.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>



From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Tue Nov 18 19:29:22 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 14:29:22 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Gianna Jessen
In-Reply-To: <B295D53B3F8F449C9A34BF57DD153F52@nickf1758c2c9d>
References: <000601c94931$7a90e0b0$8381fe04@rjige047kjawst>
	<57897C257AE948E98D67C5C20F13749C@nickf1758c2c9d>
	<4383d01d0811180743g45a07c97g5fd83f65dd563f26@mail.gmail.com>
	<B295D53B3F8F449C9A34BF57DD153F52@nickf1758c2c9d>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811181129g64df8929tacfc74cc5f912206@mail.gmail.com>

I want to do the same.  We shouldnabort our children because of
anything: sex, disability, or anything else.
Beth

On 11/18/08, trising at sbcglobal.net <trising at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> She is an advocate for unborn babies. She goes on TV and talks to
> individuals and groups about preserving the lives of unborn babies, rather
> than killing them through abortion.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>



From lauraeaves at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 18 19:45:27 2008
From: lauraeaves at yahoo.com (tribble)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 13:45:27 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] FW: [BlindMen4Christ] A Brighter Tomorrow
References: <A9B0A2FEF2834BCDAD1C5C996B78E101@Buster>
	<4383d01d0811180843k676ec76fod8cad589b2ed3500@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DBE644F2DB544FE091234C5B0C9B9CF0@bassclef>

I think it is a mistake to interpret every affliction or difficulty in life 
as a message from God -- I mean, people came to earth to learn and prove 
themselves and dealing with problems is part of that -- I was just thinking 
about this the other day when I had a brief "sorry for self" mood. I 
wondered what I ever did to deserve the package of problems I got and 
wondered if the Lord was angry at me or something.  I then thought God did 
not "hate me", however tempting that thought might be -- but he actually 
loves all people and wants them to be happy--otherwise he wouldn't have 
endured the crucifixion.  On the other hand it it is similarly a mistake to 
interpret success and good health as a reward -- I mean, look at the 
financial and other blessings some people have and their lives are a mess 
because of it.
I think living the principles of the gospel brings peace and blessings of 
the spirit, and experience and simple wisdom.
Anyway, off my soapbox. It is something I have pondered and so I'm just 
verbalizing.
Take care.
--le



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 10:43 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] FW: [BlindMen4Christ] A Brighter Tomorrow


Interesting.  I don't understand why Governor, that wicked but weird
man, is making so much money now and I am making none.  My cousin
wants a healthy pregnancy, but she's having problems herself.  God
works in mysterious way.s.
Beth

On 11/18/08, WESLEY BURDEN <wesley.burden at verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindmen4christ-bounces at morales-family.lljfm.net
> [mailto:blindmen4christ-bounces at morales-family.lljfm.net] On Behalf Of Stu
> (by way of Curtis Delzer <curtis at calweb.com>)
> Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 11:17 AM
> To: Blind men for Christ
> Subject: [BlindMen4Christ] A Brighter Tomorrow
>
>
> "UNTIL I WENT INTO THE SANCTUARY..."
>
>
>
> "Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end." 
> Psalm
> 73:17
>
> Why do we have such frustration over the many circumstances in life?
> We are perplexed by the actions and life-style of believers who profess to
> be devoted to the Lord. We become confused by issues, decisions within our
> church family, and many other circumstances we encounter. David had this
> problem as viewed in Psalm 73. He could not understand the prosperity of 
> the
> wicked, their wealth and welfare, when their life-style was so averse to
> God. He even thought his efforts to follow God and to live godly was in
> vain. He said, "When I tried to understand all this, it was oppressive to
> me." BUT then he said, "Till I entered the sanctuary of God; THEN I
> understood their final destiny."
>
> We cannot understand the ways of man in relation to God. How can they fare
> so well and yet be so ungodly and abusive to themselves and others. We, as
> David, need to go into the sanctuary. You ask, "Where is the sanctuary of
> God?" It is where, with reverential fear and awe we bow with contrition of
> heart and brokenness of spirit, and through prayer MEET GOD! It need not 
> be
> a church or home or any place in particular. It's when we come in 
> child-like
> faith, lifting up our hearts to HIM...HE MEETS us WHERE WE ARE! What an
> incredible blessing HE has provided for us to enter into the "very 
> presence
> of God." But what happens when we meet God? In His presence, God speaks to
> us through the Holy Spirit who dwells within each believer. He gives us 
> HIS
> perspective, and an understanding that HE is in control. He will cause us 
> to
> lift our hearts in thanksgiving and praise as Paul--"Thanks be to God, who
> always leads us in triumphal procession in Christ, and through us spreads
> everywhere the fragrance of the knowledge of Him" (2 Corinthians 2:14). We
> "see through a glass darkly"...we "seek to know" from our finite
> reasoning...we endeavor to walk in the confines of our limited vision. God
> simply says, "Fix your eyes on Jesus" (Hebrews 12:2). When situations 
> cause
> us great concern, we must realize, this "thing" is so strong I cannot 
> handle
> it, it has come between me and God. THEN is when we need to meet God in 
> the
> sanctuary. He will meet you and enable you to say with Paul, "No, in all
> these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us" (Romans
> 8:37). FOCUS ON CHRIST!
>
> God has provided for our every need. "For of Him, and through Him, and to
> Him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever" (Romans 11:36). Let us
> appropriate all HE has purchased for us. It is before His Throne of Grace,
> HE gives us the REALITY of His presence with us, the CONFIDENCE of His 
> care
> for us, the ASSURANCE of His mighty power to us, and the KNOWLEDGE that HE
> is in control, still on the throne, and that HE LOVES us!
>
> David said, "I sought the Lord...and HE heard me...and delivered me from 
> ALL
> my fears" (Psalm 34:4). God said, "Call upon ME...and I will show you 
> great
> and mighty things which you know not." Let God take control of every phase
> of your life..."casting all your care [anxiety, concern, worries, once and
> for all] on HIM, for He cares for you affectionately, and cares about you
> watchfully" (1 Peter 5:7).
>
>
> Stu
> <mailto:K5stu at sbcglobal.net>K5stu at sbcglobal.net
> Reading your Bible today will help prepare you for A Brighter Tomorrow!
> _______________________________________________
> BlindMen4Christ mailing list
> BlindMen4Christ at morales-family.lljfm.net
> http://morales-family.lljfm.net/mailman/listinfo/blindmen4christ_morales-fam
> ily.lljfm.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>

_______________________________________________
Faith-talk mailing list
Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
Faith-talk:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/lauraeaves%40yahoo.com 




From lauraeaves at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 18 20:23:20 2008
From: lauraeaves at yahoo.com (tribble)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 14:23:20 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Gianna Jessen
References: <000601c94931$7a90e0b0$8381fe04@rjige047kjawst><57897C257AE948E98D67C5C20F13749C@nickf1758c2c9d><4383d01d0811180743g45a07c97g5fd83f65dd563f26@mail.gmail.com>
	<B295D53B3F8F449C9A34BF57DD153F52@nickf1758c2c9d>
Message-ID: <D71F63A611AB48FBB41BE79332DD4EC1@bassclef>

There is a good bumper sticker that my mother saw the other day. It said

Blacks don't choose slavery
Jews don't choose genocide
babies don't choose abortion.

I also have a question about a grooup called Concerned Women of America. 
They started calling me asking for money to help lobby congress against 
abortion. I have given to them, but they keep calling back every month 
asking for money for a new bill to lobby.
I had never heard of the CWA and so would be interested if anyone has done 
anything with them or knows if they are a good organization to give money 
to.

Take care.
--le

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <trising at sbcglobal.net>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Gianna Jessen


She is an advocate for unborn babies. She goes on TV and talks to
individuals and groups about preserving the lives of unborn babies, rather
than killing them through abortion.


_______________________________________________
Faith-talk mailing list
Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
Faith-talk:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/lauraeaves%40yahoo.com 




From rjs059 at peoplepc.com  Tue Nov 18 21:26:03 2008
From: rjs059 at peoplepc.com (rjs059 at peoplepc.com)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 16:26:03 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Gianna Jessen
References: <000601c94931$7a90e0b0$8381fe04@rjige047kjawst><57897C257AE948E98D67C5C20F13749C@nickf1758c2c9d><4383d01d0811180743g45a07c97g5fd83f65dd563f26@mail.gmail.com>
	<B295D53B3F8F449C9A34BF57DD153F52@nickf1758c2c9d>
Message-ID: <012501c949c4$439b2af0$3d87fe04@rjige047kjawst>

I've had the pleasure of speaking to her, and she is varry joyful. RJ
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <trising at sbcglobal.net>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 11:35 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Gianna Jessen


> She is an advocate for unborn babies. She goes on TV and talks to
> individuals and groups about preserving the lives of unborn babies, rather
> than killing them through abortion.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/rjs059%40peoplepc.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.9.4/1793 - Release Date: 11/16/2008 
7:58 PM




From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Tue Nov 18 21:32:43 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 15:32:43 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Gianna Jessen
References: <000601c94931$7a90e0b0$8381fe04@rjige047kjawst><57897C257AE948E98D67C5C20F13749C@nickf1758c2c9d><4383d01d0811180743g45a07c97g5fd83f65dd563f26@mail.gmail.com><B295D53B3F8F449C9A34BF57DD153F52@nickf1758c2c9d>
	<D71F63A611AB48FBB41BE79332DD4EC1@bassclef>
Message-ID: <F6F24B29D3034D868309FF6AD879EB73@your4dacd0ea75>

If you never heard of it, don't do it.  They used to have an ad on the radio 
here in Duluth where the senior citizen couldn't get rid of this 
telemarketer and she finally said, "I think I hear my mother calling me," 
and hung up.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "tribble" <lauraeaves at yahoo.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 2:23 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Gianna Jessen


> There is a good bumper sticker that my mother saw the other day. It said
>
> Blacks don't choose slavery
> Jews don't choose genocide
> babies don't choose abortion.
>
> I also have a question about a grooup called Concerned Women of America.
> They started calling me asking for money to help lobby congress against
> abortion. I have given to them, but they keep calling back every month
> asking for money for a new bill to lobby.
> I had never heard of the CWA and so would be interested if anyone has done
> anything with them or knows if they are a good organization to give money
> to.
>
> Take care.
> --le
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <trising at sbcglobal.net>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 10:35 AM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Gianna Jessen
>
>
> She is an advocate for unborn babies. She goes on TV and talks to
> individuals and groups about preserving the lives of unborn babies, rather
> than killing them through abortion.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/lauraeaves%40yahoo.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.6/1797 - Release Date: 11/18/2008 
11:23 AM




From leah_seabury at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 19 01:56:35 2008
From: leah_seabury at yahoo.com (Leah Seabury)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 17:56:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Faith-talk] Trials
Message-ID: <470842.34074.qm@web35701.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

All scriptures that I quote comes from the KJV!
God allows troubles to befall us for several reasons.
It is everyone. No one is immune to them.
1st. the turning away from God.
"Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;"
Romans 2:8-10

?
"Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many
evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?"
Deuteronomy 31:16-18
"And it shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are befallen them, that this song shall testify against them as a witness; for it shall not be
forgotten out of the mouths of their seed: for I know their imagination which they go about, even now, before I have brought them into the land which I
sware."
Deuteronomy 31:20-22
2nd. as an attention catcher. In the last days troubles will fall upon the earth. We are in those bays now.
"For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles:
these are the beginnings of sorrows."
Mark 13:7-9
"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."
Matthew 24:20-22
"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the
world."
John 16:32-33
3rd. He allows tribulations, trials, or troubles for peraiding us infront his angels.
A fantastic example is Job.
He calls it the refining fire. Where we as Christians are molded to be made perfect.
"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the
world."
John 16:32-33
"Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of
God."
Acts 14:21-23
"And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;"
Romans 5:2-4
"Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;"
Romans 12:11-13
We are to glory in our tribulation
"Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory."
Ephesians 3:12-14

Nothing can separate us from God...
"Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?"
Romans 8:34-36
God is the great comforter. He comforts us through it all. Through our comfort in Christ, we can comfort and help others.
"Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted
of God."
2 Corinthians 1:3-5
"Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation
ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life."
Revelation 2:9-11
Satan will try it all, but you and I can have victory if we keep our eyes and our hearts on him. We must wear the armor of God.
Child of the Risin Lord.

Seabury .M. Leah
"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard
that it should come; and even now already is it in the world." (1 john4:1-3 KJV.)

?


      

From mentink at frontiernet.net  Wed Nov 19 02:11:04 2008
From: mentink at frontiernet.net (Linda Mentink)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 20:11:04 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Praying for the Nation
Message-ID: <20081119021104.CBCEB1A03A2@relay03.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>


This is a good reminder, so thought I'd share.


PRAYING FOR THE NATION

November 18, 2008 (David Cloud, Fundamental Baptist Information
Service, P.O. Box 610368, Port Huron, MI 48061, 866-295-4143, 
fbns at wayoflife.org ; for instructions about subscribing and 
unsubscribing or changing
addresses, see the information paragraph at the end of the article) -

"I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers,
intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings,
and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and
peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and
acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to
be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is
one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time" (1
Timothy 2:1-6).

Paul says that praying for the government should be of the highest
priority. It should be "first of all." Prayer is one of the most
important things in the Christian life and can accomplish more than
political action. As J.B. Buffington wisely observed, "The answer is
not in the White House but in God's house." Through the power of
prayer, Bible-believing churches can have an influence far beyond
their numbers. This is why we need to establish the habit of daily
private intercessory prayer. Paul spoke of "my prayers" (Rom. 1:9).
This is also why we should pray corporately. It is a very sad and
telling fact that many churches no longer have a serious weekly prayer
meeting, and those that do find that it is scantily attended.

The passage gives two reasons why God's people need to pray for their
governments.

First, we need to pray so that we might lead a quiet and peaceable
life in all godliness and honesty (1 Tim. 2:2).

Observe that we are not to pray for peace so that we can pursue our
own selfish aims. We are to pray for peace so that we might be rich
toward God's business rather than toward our own. Too often God's
people turn aside from godliness during times of peace and prosperity;
they seek their own will and pleasure ahead of God's. Look at America
and Canada. Most churches are fat and worldly and lukewarm about God's
work; they are entertaining and mollifying the saints rather than
challenging them to put Christ first. Look at the older saints. The
tendency is to settle down, to seek security and comfort, while being
half-hearted about obeying God and fulfilling the Great Commission.

Observe that we are to live in "all godliness." Too often the churches
that are living in times of peace and prosperity are characterized by
worldliness rather than purity. Observe, too, that we are to live
"honestly." This is in contrast to every form of dishonesty, to
stealing, crooked business practices, borrowing and not repaying,
slacking off on the job, and such.

Second, we need to pray so that the gospel might be preached to all
men (1 Tim. 2:3-6).

The Lord Jesus commanded that the gospel be preached to every person
(Mark 16:15), and in 1 Timothy 2 we see why, because God wants all men
to be saved. This work of world evangelism is called the "great
commission," because it is so emphasized in the New Testament (Mat.
28:19-20; Mark 16:15; Luke 24:46-48; John 20:21; Acts 1:8). This work
is carried out more effectively in conditions of peace. Some say that
what North American churches need is persecution, and there is some
truth to that, but at the same time persecution hinders the free
preaching of the gospel. Consider China. The governmental persecution
there against the public preaching of the gospel and the free
gathering of non-registered churches and the totalitarian control of
the media, including the internet, means that a large percentage of
the people haven't heard the gospel. The same is true for Muslim
nations such as Iran and Saudi Arabia. Consider the example of Nepal.
Prior to the 1990s, it was illegal to preach the gospel in Nepal and
as a result the number of churches was very small and the vast
majority of the people knew nothing of the gospel. In the early 1990s
there was a change in the constitution and governmental persecution
ceased. Since then, the number of churches has increased dramatically
and multitudes have heard the gospel that otherwise would not have
under the previous conditions.

God would not have exhorted us to pray for kings and those in
authority if He did not intend to answer those prayers. Through the
power of prayer we have the privilege of making a dramatic difference
in this present world.

[Distributed by Way of Life Literature's Fundamental Baptist
Information Service, an e-mail listing for Fundamental Baptists and
other fundamentalist, Bible-believing Christians. OUR GOAL IN THIS
PARTICULAR ASPECT OF OUR MINISTRY IS NOT DEVOTIONAL BUT IS TO PROVIDE
INFORMATION TO ASSIST PREACHERS IN THE PROTECTION OF THE CHURCHES IN
THIS APOSTATE HOUR. This material is sent only to those who personally
subscribe to the list. If somehow you have subscribed unintentionally,
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UNSUBSCRIBE or to CHANGE ADDRESSES or to RE-SUBSCRIBE UNDER A NEW
ADDRESS, go to http://www.wayoflife.org/fbis/subscribe.html. If you
have any trouble with this, please let us know. And please be patient
with us. We do not ignore any unsubscribe request, but we cannot
always get to your request immediately as each person involved with
maintaining the Way of Life web site does this only on a very part
time basis and is busy with many other major activities, such as
pastoring and missionary work. We take up a quarterly offering to fund
this ministry, and those who use the materials are expected to
participate (Galatians 6:6) if they can. Some of the articles are from
O Timothy magazine, which is in its 25th year of publication. Way of
Life publishes many helpful books. The catalog is located at the web
site: http://wayoflife.org/catalog/catalog.htm Way of Life Literature,
P.O. Box 610368, Port Huron, MI 48061. 866-295-4143,
fbns at wayoflife.org. We do not solicit funds from those who do not
agree with our preaching and who are not helped by these publications,
but from those who are. OFFERINGS can be made at 
http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/offering.html . PAYPAL offerings can be 
made to https://www.paypal.com/xclick/business=dcloud%40wayoflife.org ]







From gpaikens at gmail.com  Thu Nov 20 00:18:21 2008
From: gpaikens at gmail.com (Greg Aikens)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 18:18:21 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] New Member and a question about blind people in
	ministry
Message-ID: <1ff3a0e10811191618u6840ace4t5f8a4954fe92b652@mail.gmail.com>

Hello all,
I am a new member to the list. I am a 24 year old student at the
Assemblies of God Theological Seminary in Springfield, MO.

I am wondering if anyone is aware of an email list set up specifically
for blind and visually impaired people in ministry. I have done some
basic searches but haven't found much. Any help is appreciated.

Blessings,

Greg Aikens



From wesley.burden at verizon.net  Thu Nov 20 01:46:54 2008
From: wesley.burden at verizon.net (WESLEY BURDEN)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 20:46:54 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] New Member and a question about blind people
	in	ministry
In-Reply-To: <1ff3a0e10811191618u6840ace4t5f8a4954fe92b652@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1ff3a0e10811191618u6840ace4t5f8a4954fe92b652@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C0DAF9B2622641E2BC628A881C95BA40@Buster>

Good evening greg.  Have you checked out blind men for christ?  My name is
wesley I am from new jersey nice to meet you greg.
 

-----Original Message-----
From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Greg Aikens
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 7:18 PM
To: faith-talk at nfbnet.org
Subject: [Faith-talk] New Member and a question about blind people in
ministry

Hello all,
I am a new member to the list. I am a 24 year old student at the Assemblies
of God Theological Seminary in Springfield, MO.

I am wondering if anyone is aware of an email list set up specifically for
blind and visually impaired people in ministry. I have done some basic
searches but haven't found much. Any help is appreciated.

Blessings,

Greg Aikens

_______________________________________________
Faith-talk mailing list
Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Faith-talk:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/wesley.burden%40
verizon.net




From daniel7047 at yahoo.com  Thu Nov 20 03:59:33 2008
From: daniel7047 at yahoo.com (daniel strube)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 22:59:33 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] job update
Message-ID: <C8790700FFD1468BAE6C76362E65AE5E@YOURF38F750818>

as most of you know I've been job searching for a long time now. well I now have a tempoary job. it is until December 24.  it is not my dream job mind you but it is a job and for that I am happy.  I am a bell ringer for the Salvation Army.  it pays $7.40 an hour.  I work 3 days a week. and for roughly 9 or 10 hours a day. 3 days.  starting december probably 4 days. can't say what place I will be at because they switch me every time.  i get 30 minutes for lunch and they provide this. I get 30 minute dinner break I provide and 2 15 minute breaks.  keep me in prayer as I am still looking for a permanent job. this is a start thoughs
want to know more about Toast Masters check out http://wordsofhope.freetoasthost.net

From gpaikens at gmail.com  Thu Nov 20 04:02:57 2008
From: gpaikens at gmail.com (Greg Aikens)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 22:02:57 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] New Member and a question about blind people in
	ministry
In-Reply-To: <C0DAF9B2622641E2BC628A881C95BA40@Buster>
References: <1ff3a0e10811191618u6840ace4t5f8a4954fe92b652@mail.gmail.com>
	<C0DAF9B2622641E2BC628A881C95BA40@Buster>
Message-ID: <1ff3a0e10811192002m1aeac4ib87f1fa15fdda13e@mail.gmail.com>

I haven't but I will now. Thanks for the tip.

Greg

On 11/19/08, WESLEY BURDEN <wesley.burden at verizon.net> wrote:
> Good evening greg.  Have you checked out blind men for christ?  My name is
> wesley I am from new jersey nice to meet you greg.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On Behalf Of Greg Aikens
> Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 7:18 PM
> To: faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> Subject: [Faith-talk] New Member and a question about blind people in
> ministry
>
> Hello all,
> I am a new member to the list. I am a 24 year old student at the Assemblies
> of God Theological Seminary in Springfield, MO.
>
> I am wondering if anyone is aware of an email list set up specifically for
> blind and visually impaired people in ministry. I have done some basic
> searches but haven't found much. Any help is appreciated.
>
> Blessings,
>
> Greg Aikens
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/wesley.burden%40
> verizon.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com
>



From maryesanchez at grandecom.net  Thu Nov 20 21:56:29 2008
From: maryesanchez at grandecom.net (Mary Ellen Sanchez)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 15:56:29 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] I am a new user
In-Reply-To: <319301.7262.qm@web35702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <319301.7262.qm@web35702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAALu0UnEi21pCrpPgPaHqjsrCgAAAEAAAALiwA8ScCPdDls6+msBshmUBAAAAAA==@grandecom.net>

Hello and welcome Leah. My name is Mary and I want to welcome you to this
list. I hope you enjoy it here.
Your friend,
Mary.

-----Original Message-----
From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Leah Seabury
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 2:29 PM
To: Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
Subject: [Faith-talk] I am a new user

I have just signed up with this mailing list.
My name is Leah I am in NC. I just wanted to say God Bless to one and all.


?
Seabury .M. Leah
"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of
God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye
the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in
the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ
is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist,
whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the
world." (1 john4:1-3 KJV.)

?


      
_______________________________________________
Faith-talk mailing list
Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Faith-talk:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/maryesanchez%40g
randecom.net




---
avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean.
Virus Database (VPS): 081116-1, 11/16/2008 Tested on: 11/17/2008 4:07:50 PM
avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2008 ALWIL Software.
http://www.avast.com






From timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com  Thu Nov 20 22:08:37 2008
From: timber_wolf899 at yahoo.com (Frank Lordi)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 14:08:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Faith-talk] I am a new user
In-Reply-To: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAALu0UnEi21pCrpPgPaHqjsrCgAAAEAAAALiwA8ScCPdDls6+msBshmUBAAAAAA==@grandecom.net>
Message-ID: <627968.36153.qm@web51901.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Hi Leah!


--- On Thu, 11/20/08, Mary Ellen Sanchez <maryesanchez at grandecom.net> wrote:

> From: Mary Ellen Sanchez <maryesanchez at grandecom.net>
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] I am a new user
> To: "'Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion'" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Date: Thursday, November 20, 2008, 4:56 PM
> Hello and welcome Leah. My name is Mary and I want to
> welcome you to this
> list. I hope you enjoy it here.
> Your friend,
> Mary.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On Behalf Of Leah Seabury
> Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 2:29 PM
> To: Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> Subject: [Faith-talk] I am a new user
> 
> I have just signed up with this mailing list.
> My name is Leah I am in NC. I just wanted to say God Bless
> to one and all.
> 
> 
> ?
> Seabury .M. Leah
> "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the
> spirits whether they are of
> God: because many false prophets are gone out into the
> world. Hereby know ye
> the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus
> Christ is come in
> the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not
> that Jesus Christ
> is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit
> of antichrist,
> whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now
> already is it in the
> world." (1 john4:1-3 KJV.)
> 
> ?
> 
> 
>       
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
> account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/maryesanchez%40g
> randecom.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---
> avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean.
> Virus Database (VPS): 081116-1, 11/16/2008 Tested on:
> 11/17/2008 4:07:50 PM
> avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2008 ALWIL Software.
> http://www.avast.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
> account info for Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/timber_wolf899%40yahoo.com


      



From mentink at frontiernet.net  Thu Nov 20 23:54:15 2008
From: mentink at frontiernet.net (Linda Mentink)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 17:54:15 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] job update
In-Reply-To: <C8790700FFD1468BAE6C76362E65AE5E@YOURF38F750818>
References: <C8790700FFD1468BAE6C76362E65AE5E@YOURF38F750818>
Message-ID: <20081120235414.A589719821B@relay02.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>

Hi Daniel,

That's great news.  I didn't know bell ringers were paid.  I'm 
praying you'll find a full-time position soon.

Blessings,

Linda




From mentink at frontiernet.net  Thu Nov 20 23:55:33 2008
From: mentink at frontiernet.net (Linda Mentink)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 17:55:33 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] New Member and a question about blind people in
 ministry
In-Reply-To: <1ff3a0e10811191618u6840ace4t5f8a4954fe92b652@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <1ff3a0e10811191618u6840ace4t5f8a4954fe92b652@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081120235532.576E5ACA1E@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>

Hi Greg,

Welcome.  I'm sorry, I don't know of any lists for blind people in 
ministry.  You might do a google search, but there might not be much out there.

Blessings,

Linda




From braille at sbcglobal.net  Fri Nov 21 01:16:37 2008
From: braille at sbcglobal.net (Mary Donahue)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 19:16:37 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Vivian's Progress and My Parents' Arrival in Arizona
Message-ID: <000701c94b76$ce7fb5b0$220110ac@your96fc0aa548>

Good evening everyone,

    I promised I would let you know how my supervisor, Vivian Seki, was 
progressing. She had to spend one night in the hospital last Friday night, 
and went home Saturday morning after she had her breakfast. I just called 
her, and she sounds in good spirits. She opted to stay home for the whole 
week because she had to keep her foot elevated as much as possible, and the 
wheelchair is not the most comfortable to elevate a foot. From what she told 
me, the cast on her foot extends from mid-calf down to her foot. She will 
have to wear the cast for four weeks, and to get around in a wheelchair. 
After four weeks, the cast and stitches come off, and, about two to four 
weeks later, she will begin physical therapy. Since we are having a short 
week next week, she plans to come in Monday and Tuesday to find out how the 
department ran without her. As I said in a previous message, Vivian will be 
living the ADA from the word _go.

    I also wanted to mention that my parents made it to Arizona on Monday. 
It helped them to stop earlier in the afternoon and to take their time 
driving down there. Dad has an appointment with the doctor tomorrow so, Lord 
willing, I will be able to find out whether he will have his surgery and 
when. Therefore, please keep Dad in your prayers tomorrow.

    Thank you in advance for all of your prayers so far, and I will continue 
to keep you posted.

Mary Donahue





From wesley.burden at verizon.net  Fri Nov 21 02:15:14 2008
From: wesley.burden at verizon.net (WESLEY BURDEN)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 21:15:14 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] New Member and a question about blind people in
 ministry
In-Reply-To: <20081120235532.576E5ACA1E@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
References: <1ff3a0e10811191618u6840ace4t5f8a4954fe92b652@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081120235532.576E5ACA1E@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
Message-ID: <41B3AB7E54A149ACB20F14E901984BD3@Buster>

Greg check out this website www.blindmission.org that is a place where there
is information about christian ministries for the blind.
 

-----Original Message-----
From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Linda Mentink
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 6:56 PM
To: Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] New Member and a question about blind people in
ministry

Hi Greg,

Welcome.  I'm sorry, I don't know of any lists for blind people in ministry.
You might do a google search, but there might not be much out there.

Blessings,

Linda


_______________________________________________
Faith-talk mailing list
Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Faith-talk:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/wesley.burden%40
verizon.net




From rhanda.hasley at sbcglobal.net  Fri Nov 21 03:44:25 2008
From: rhanda.hasley at sbcglobal.net (Rhanda Hasley)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 21:44:25 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Vivian's Progress and My Parents' Arrival in
	Arizona
References: <000701c94b76$ce7fb5b0$220110ac@your96fc0aa548>
Message-ID: <9DD5E4FB1CA34B798BA6F86687B6F515@rhandaqk4e9x00>

    Hi Mary,

I'm so glad to get this message and to know that Vivian is progressing well. 
Also, I'll keep her and your dad in prayer.  It was really great seeing you 
and Pete at convention.

Blessings,

Rhanda


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mary Donahue" <braille at sbcglobal.net>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 7:16 PM
Subject: [Faith-talk] Vivian's Progress and My Parents' Arrival in Arizona


> Good evening everyone,
>
>    I promised I would let you know how my supervisor, Vivian Seki, was 
> progressing. She had to spend one night in the hospital last Friday night, 
> and went home Saturday morning after she had her breakfast. I just called 
> her, and she sounds in good spirits. She opted to stay home for the whole 
> week because she had to keep her foot elevated as much as possible, and 
> the wheelchair is not the most comfortable to elevate a foot. From what 
> she told me, the cast on her foot extends from mid-calf down to her foot. 
> She will have to wear the cast for four weeks, and to get around in a 
> wheelchair. After four weeks, the cast and stitches come off, and, about 
> two to four weeks later, she will begin physical therapy. Since we are 
> having a short week next week, she plans to come in Monday and Tuesday to 
> find out how the department ran without her. As I said in a previous 
> message, Vivian will be living the ADA from the word _go.
>
>    I also wanted to mention that my parents made it to Arizona on Monday. 
> It helped them to stop earlier in the afternoon and to take their time 
> driving down there. Dad has an appointment with the doctor tomorrow so, 
> Lord willing, I will be able to find out whether he will have his surgery 
> and when. Therefore, please keep Dad in your prayers tomorrow.
>
>    Thank you in advance for all of your prayers so far, and I will 
> continue to keep you posted.
>
> Mary Donahue
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/rhanda.hasley%40sbcglobal.net 




From everettg at successfuladaptations.com  Fri Nov 21 04:03:20 2008
From: everettg at successfuladaptations.com (Everett Gavel)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 23:03:20 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] New Member and a question about blind people in
	ministry
References: <1ff3a0e10811191618u6840ace4t5f8a4954fe92b652@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081120235532.576E5ACA1E@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
Message-ID: <001c01c94b8e$174d7040$63a1dd45@IBMB7D6F383D44>

Hi Greg, and all,

Welcome to the list, Greg.

Sir, if you find such a list, please pass it on.  In 
the past months here I've noticed mention and prayer 
requests for a handful of pastors who happen to be 
blind.  I find that just to know there are such pastors 
out there, doing it day-by-day, is encouraging.

And so even if all of those pastors aren't here 
themselves, there's a bit of a network right here, 
y'know?  Besides that, a few of us here would be 
interested in such a list, if one is ever found - or 
created.  While I don't think God's calling for me is 
to be a straight-out pastor as we know them today - we 
are all called to be the pastors of our own homes, 
y'know?

Anyone care to take up the effort for such a list?  If 
there's not already one, I mean.  Because if there is, 
to split up the resources would only help to weaken the 
effort, I'd think.  But if there's not already such a 
list, who shall start one for Christ's people?

I once was blind, but now I see the Truth.  Thank You, 
Jesus, for getting my attention.


"Before I was afflicted I went astray, but now I obey 
your word."

(Psalm 119:67)





Strive On--All for His Glory!

Everett




----- Original Message ----- 
> I am wondering if anyone is aware of an email list 
> set up specifically
> for blind and visually impaired people in ministry. I 
> have done some
> basic searches but haven't found much. Any help is 
> appreciated.
>
>





From gpaikens at gmail.com  Fri Nov 21 04:30:50 2008
From: gpaikens at gmail.com (Greg Aikens)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 22:30:50 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] New Member and a question about blind people in
	ministry
In-Reply-To: <001c01c94b8e$174d7040$63a1dd45@IBMB7D6F383D44>
References: <1ff3a0e10811191618u6840ace4t5f8a4954fe92b652@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081120235532.576E5ACA1E@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
	<001c01c94b8e$174d7040$63a1dd45@IBMB7D6F383D44>
Message-ID: <1ff3a0e10811202030r3a850545lc4ece6ec1f96db79@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Everett and all,
Thanks for your responses. I asked because I am considering making
such a list but like you said,  I don't want to reinvent the wheel if
it is already out there. I have asked a few different places and
haven't found anything quite like what I am imagining. I will
defintely let you know if a list gets created.

Blessings,

Greg

On 11/20/08, Everett Gavel <everettg at successfuladaptations.com> wrote:
> Hi Greg, and all,
>
> Welcome to the list, Greg.
>
> Sir, if you find such a list, please pass it on.  In
> the past months here I've noticed mention and prayer
> requests for a handful of pastors who happen to be
> blind.  I find that just to know there are such pastors
> out there, doing it day-by-day, is encouraging.
>
> And so even if all of those pastors aren't here
> themselves, there's a bit of a network right here,
> y'know?  Besides that, a few of us here would be
> interested in such a list, if one is ever found - or
> created.  While I don't think God's calling for me is
> to be a straight-out pastor as we know them today - we
> are all called to be the pastors of our own homes,
> y'know?
>
> Anyone care to take up the effort for such a list?  If
> there's not already one, I mean.  Because if there is,
> to split up the resources would only help to weaken the
> effort, I'd think.  But if there's not already such a
> list, who shall start one for Christ's people?
>
> I once was blind, but now I see the Truth.  Thank You,
> Jesus, for getting my attention.
>
>
> "Before I was afflicted I went astray, but now I obey
> your word."
>
> (Psalm 119:67)
>
>
>
>
>
> Strive On--All for His Glory!
>
> Everett
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>> I am wondering if anyone is aware of an email list
>> set up specifically
>> for blind and visually impaired people in ministry. I
>> have done some
>> basic searches but haven't found much. Any help is
>> appreciated.
>>
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com
>



From andrewjedg at gmail.com  Fri Nov 21 04:53:41 2008
From: andrewjedg at gmail.com (Andrew Edgcumbe)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 23:53:41 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] hello all
Message-ID: <ddda981c0811202053x421e4c48r49b0a716e75edd0e@mail.gmail.com>

Hi guys

My name is Andrew.

I just thought i would introduce myself to those who don't know me.

I am from Canada.
I am a Christian who wants to serve god.
I want to make a difference.

I am totally blind.
I want to get to know all of you.



From cbusch9318 at aol.com  Fri Nov 21 04:59:23 2008
From: cbusch9318 at aol.com (cbusch9318 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 23:59:23 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] prayer request
Message-ID: <8CB19AD0DF468F6-17EC-183F@FWM-D09.sysops.aol.com>


Would you be so kind as to keep me in your prayers?? My son Stephen died June 1, 2001.? He had a little therapy dog, Benji, who cared for me after he died.? Little Benji dog was the piece of Stephen that I could still hold and love.? Benji died saturday night.? He was only 7.? I know there are great problems in our world and so many other bigger needs, yet, I am so broken hearted.? Thank you for holding me up.? 

chrissy and stephen and benji who live in my heart


From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Fri Nov 21 09:09:20 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 03:09:20 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Another Prayer Request
Message-ID: <619ECD8EEA084179B9424A8ADD535BB7@your4dacd0ea75>

Please pray for the wife of the pastor where I play on Sundays.  She's been sick a long time.  She's never had a drinking history, but she's been found to have serosis of the liver and doctors say that they have done all they can do.  She needs Holy Ghost power now in a big way.



"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul," American Humorist Mark Twain

"An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind

"A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV

"Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)

"No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push, 1976.

"With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic," the Late Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation of the Blind.

Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com 





From everettg at successfuladaptations.com  Fri Nov 21 09:48:17 2008
From: everettg at successfuladaptations.com (Everett Gavel)
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 04:48:17 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] New Member and a question about blind people
	inministry
References: <1ff3a0e10811191618u6840ace4t5f8a4954fe92b652@mail.gmail.com><20081120235532.576E5ACA1E@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net><001c01c94b8e$174d7040$63a1dd45@IBMB7D6F383D44>
	<1ff3a0e10811202030r3a850545lc4ece6ec1f96db79@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004c01c94bbe$47a847d0$e693f44c@IBMB7D6F383D44>

Good Morning Greg, and all,

Greg, I know you've asked around, but have you searched 
YahooGroups.com?  Freelists(.org?), or even Topica.com? 
Google's lists?  Not sure about Topica anymore.  Don't 
know who owns them.  I do know I've lost control of 2 
of my lists I've hosted with them in past years, and 
can't seem to get ahold of anyone in charge to help me 
reclaim the lists.


Good/God Luck With It,
Everett
www.everettgavel.com


----- Original Message ----- 
> Hey Everett and all,
> Thanks for your responses. I asked because I am 
> considering making
> such a list but like you said,  I don't want to 
> reinvent the wheel if
> it is already out there. I have asked a few different 
> places and
> haven't found anything quite like what I am 
> imagining. I will
> defintely let you know if a list gets created.
>





From everettg at successfuladaptations.com  Fri Nov 21 09:57:13 2008
From: everettg at successfuladaptations.com (Everett Gavel)
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 04:57:13 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Andrew and Leah
References: <ddda981c0811202053x421e4c48r49b0a716e75edd0e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005101c94bbf$87931590$e693f44c@IBMB7D6F383D44>

Good Morning,

I'm not one to generally just say, "Welcome," and 
that's it, but since there are at least 2 I have yet to 
welcome right now, I say, "Welcome" to both Leah and 
Andrew - and to anyone else I've missed.  ;-)

I hope God gives each of you something fulfilling 
through this list.  May He use you mightily and often 
in your lives, as you let Him lead you.


All for His Glory!
Everett
----- 
"And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more 
and more in knowledge and depth of insight, so that you 
may be able to discern what is best and may be pure and 
blameless until the day of Christ,"
(Philippians 1:9-10)






From everettg at successfuladaptations.com  Fri Nov 21 10:33:28 2008
From: everettg at successfuladaptations.com (Everett Gavel)
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 05:33:28 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Listening to God - In Touch with Dr. Charles Stanley
References: <14380266.1227260431118.JavaMail.root@crosswalkmail.com>
Message-ID: <007901c94bc4$97d01700$e693f44c@IBMB7D6F383D44>

Good Morning,

I found this devotional today, highly relevant to me - 
and thought it might prove the same to others.  It's 
possibly my weakest point.  I don't 'do' silence well, 
and almost always have something playing in the 
background when possible.  I'm sure there have been 
times I've not heard God when He's saying something 
specific to me.  How about you?  Read below and if 
you're up for it, share your thoughts?

God Bless Your Reading,
Everett



Listening to God
In Touch with Dr. Charles Stanley - Nov. 21, 2008
http://www.crosswalk.com/devotionals/in_touch/


~ Psalm 81:8-14 ~
8 "Hear, O my people, and I will warn you-- 
       if you would but listen to me, O Israel!
9 You shall have no foreign god among you;
       you shall not bow down to an alien god.
10 I am the LORD your God,
       who brought you up out of Egypt.
       Open wide your mouth and I will fill it.
11 "But my people would not listen to me;
       Israel would not submit to me.
12 So I gave them over to their stubborn hearts
       to follow their own devices.
13 "If my people would but listen to me,
       if Israel would follow my ways,
14 how quickly would I subdue their enemies
       and turn my hand against their foes!


Does the heavenly Father still speak to His children? 
It's a question that may be on your mind right now. We 
all have this need to know that the Lord is still 
communicating with us. We crave the certainty that He 
hears us--and that He answers.

In Psalm 81:8-14, we get a clear picture of God's 
heart: He yearns for Israel to listen to Him. Think 
about that. Here's the almighty Creator of the universe 
pleading with His chosen people to hear His voice. It 
almost doesn't make sense, does it? Why on earth would 
the Israelites turn a deaf ear to their sustaining, 
omnipotent heavenly Father?

However, God's message is sent to inattentive ears. He 
says, "Oh, Israel, if only you would listen to Me. But 
My people did not listen to My voice. Oh, that My 
people would listen to Me!" (Psalm 81:8-14, 
paraphrase).

Thousands of years later, I'm certain that same 
question still rings through heaven. We can practically 
hear the Lord saying, "Oh, church, if only you would 
listen to Me. But My church did not listen to My voice. 
Oh, that My church would listen to Me!"

No doubt, you've heard God say the same thing to you 
personally. We seem to fall out of touch with Him at 
times. We put ourselves in one corner and restrict the 
Lord to someplace "over there" and out of the way. We 
somehow seem to lose track of His voice in our lives. 
And yet, though we may not hear Him, He is still 
talking.

Quiet your spirit today. Open God's Word and invite Him 
to speak to you anew. And then, listen.







From maryesanchez at grandecom.net  Fri Nov 21 13:26:24 2008
From: maryesanchez at grandecom.net (Mary Ellen Sanchez)
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 07:26:24 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] hello all
In-Reply-To: <ddda981c0811202053x421e4c48r49b0a716e75edd0e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ddda981c0811202053x421e4c48r49b0a716e75edd0e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAALu0UnEi21pCrpPgPaHqjsrCgAAAEAAAAAuxSqJuotlEjyskBwyOYIABAAAAAA==@grandecom.net>

Hi andrew my name is mary and I want to welcome you to this list. 

-----Original Message-----
From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Andrew Edgcumbe
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 10:54 PM
To: Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
Subject: [Faith-talk] hello all

Hi guys

My name is Andrew.

I just thought i would introduce myself to those who don't know me.

I am from Canada.
I am a Christian who wants to serve god.
I want to make a difference.

I am totally blind.
I want to get to know all of you.

_______________________________________________
Faith-talk mailing list
Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Faith-talk:
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randecom.net




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From maryesanchez at grandecom.net  Fri Nov 21 13:27:39 2008
From: maryesanchez at grandecom.net (Mary Ellen Sanchez)
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 07:27:39 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] prayer request
In-Reply-To: <8CB19AD0DF468F6-17EC-183F@FWM-D09.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CB19AD0DF468F6-17EC-183F@FWM-D09.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAALu0UnEi21pCrpPgPaHqjsrCgAAAEAAAAPNLqBU8KAVJt+0Wz8/cpukBAAAAAA==@grandecom.net>

Hi chrissy.  Please know I will certainly pray for you during this time.  I
hope you will feel better very soon.
Your Friend,
Mary.

-----Original Message-----
From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of cbusch9318 at aol.com
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 10:59 PM
To: Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
Subject: [Faith-talk] prayer request


Would you be so kind as to keep me in your prayers?? My son Stephen died
June 1, 2001.? He had a little therapy dog, Benji, who cared for me after he
died.? Little Benji dog was the piece of Stephen that I could still hold and
love.? Benji died saturday night.? He was only 7.? I know there are great
problems in our world and so many other bigger needs, yet, I am so broken
hearted.? Thank you for holding me up.? 

chrissy and stephen and benji who live in my heart
_______________________________________________
Faith-talk mailing list
Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Faith-talk:
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randecom.net




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From mentink at frontiernet.net  Fri Nov 21 16:59:02 2008
From: mentink at frontiernet.net (Linda Mentink)
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 10:59:02 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] hello all
In-Reply-To: <ddda981c0811202053x421e4c48r49b0a716e75edd0e@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <ddda981c0811202053x421e4c48r49b0a716e75edd0e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081121165900.D6B29CCC56@relay04.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>

Hi Andrew,

Welcome.  I'm Linda from Nebraska.  I teach music at our Baptist 
Christian School, help in the music ministry in the church, and give 
private piano and voice lessons in my home.  I am also blind, and I 
hold a BA degree with certification to teach.  I don't have a 
teaching license anymore, since I wasn't working full time, but a 
license isn't necessary to teach in most Christian schools.

Anyway, I hope you like it here.

Blessings,

Linda Mentink




From mentink at frontiernet.net  Fri Nov 21 17:01:47 2008
From: mentink at frontiernet.net (Linda Mentink)
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 11:01:47 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] prayer request
In-Reply-To: <8CB19AD0DF468F6-17EC-183F@FWM-D09.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CB19AD0DF468F6-17EC-183F@FWM-D09.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <20081121170145.A40161A036F@relay03.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>

Chrissy,  I'll be praying for you.  God cares about the little 
things, but he will never leave you nor forsake you.

I have a little dog, too, my third, so have gone through two doggie deaths.

Blessings,

Linda




From mentink at frontiernet.net  Fri Nov 21 18:15:58 2008
From: mentink at frontiernet.net (Linda Mentink)
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 12:15:58 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Another Prayer Request
In-Reply-To: <619ECD8EEA084179B9424A8ADD535BB7@your4dacd0ea75>
References: <619ECD8EEA084179B9424A8ADD535BB7@your4dacd0ea75>
Message-ID: <20081121181556.940271A03CE@relay03.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>

Hi Julie,

I'll certainly pray for her.  That's so sad!

Blessings,

Linda




From kk3f at msn.com  Fri Nov 21 19:22:18 2008
From: kk3f at msn.com (Pat Gormley)
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 14:22:18 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] blind people in the ministry
Message-ID: <BAY133-DAV7C4D83292AE47E04D6EC5900F0@phx.gbl>

Greg we're all called tominister in some capacity.  As far as people I've known in ministry, my mentor Jim Omvig served as an elder in his church.  Robert Eschbach is a retired United Methodist pastor and a wonderful piano player.  The first president of the communities of faith division  has been a chaplain and last time I talked to him a few years ago was acandidate for a pastorate.I'm what some denominations call a lay reader but Catholics call a Lector and am also a Eucharistic minister.  I'm a cup minister but I can distribute either species.    

From kk3f at msn.com  Fri Nov 21 19:31:21 2008
From: kk3f at msn.com (Pat Gormley)
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 14:31:21 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] blind people in the ministry
Message-ID: <BAY133-DAV17AC206D04A7E90B5116C900F0@phx.gbl>

An interesting sidelight to this whole scenario was that at the time I took training to become a Eucharistic minister, Father Ty Hollinger, who was a Deacon who ministered to both Dr. and Mrs. Jernigan when Dr. Jernigan was terminally ill really showed our rather nervous pastor that it could be done effectively.  Now it's rather common place so I'm able to continue the "family tradition" just like my dad and my mom who is still doing it in her retirement community.  

From optasiaministry at juno.com  Fri Nov 21 21:25:03 2008
From: optasiaministry at juno.com (Thomas j Vos)
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 15:25:03 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] RE Blind People in Ministry
Message-ID: <20081121.152503.2984.6.optasiaministry@juno.com>

Some time back I set up the following e-list with Yahoo groups:
MinistryWithDisabilities at yahoogroups.com

It didn't get going because I wasn't sure how to publicize it.
In fact, I'm new to the area of managing a list.
But I'm interested        in  making a go of this.

Some of you know me through Optasia Ministry, and the Bibles and books we
distribute.
When I set up this list I was thinking of a broader range of
disabilities.  There may be some cross over in the needs and challenges
we blind persons face with other disabilities.  But certainly blindness
can be a major focus of this group.
If you'd like to join me in this endeavor, we can  see where this leads
us.
Blessings,
Tom Vos, director
Optasia Ministry
____________________________________________________________
Free information on becoming a Graphic Designer. Click Now!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw3huH0UPIZaSi5nTr3yp0n9cCJJFtnIk773aAQePQjgSiD8M/



From wesley.burden at verizon.net  Sat Nov 22 15:55:37 2008
From: wesley.burden at verizon.net (WESLEY BURDEN)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 10:55:37 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] FW: [BlindMen4Christ] A Brighter tomorrow
Message-ID: <5408F6272FB342E798F66CCBF0CABF0B@Buster>

 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindmen4christ-bounces at morales-family.lljfm.net
[mailto:blindmen4christ-bounces at morales-family.lljfm.net] On Behalf Of Stu
(by way of Curtis Delzer <curtis at calweb.com>)
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 10:48 AM
To: Blind men for Christ
Subject: [BlindMen4Christ] A Brighter tomorrow


YOU ARE A LETTER FROM CHRIST



"You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry,
written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets
of stone but on tablets of human hearts." 2 Corinthians 3:3

Have you ever thought that "You" are a letter to the world from Christ? The
Ten Commandments was God's Law to man written on tables of stone, but God
has inscribed on the tables of the heart of all who have been redeemed, the
glorious message of reconciliation.

The transformation brought by the Holy Spirit, is that you have "turned from
darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God" 
(Acts 26:18). You have become a "new creation." Your views, desires, and
pursuits are all new. The bent of your life, once focused upon the things of
time and sense, is now directed to eternal values. 
Christ is the "priority" of your life. When He is in control, you proclaim
this work of grace in your life to all, that "He is the way, the truth, and
the life. No man cometh unto the Father but by me." 
And "There is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be
saved." Nor is there any other foundation whereon any man can build his
hopes.

You are a letter from Christ to the truth of the gospel. In no other
religion will there be found a work like that on the day of Pentecost. Will
the word preached by other faiths be quick, and powerful, and sharper than a
two-edged sword? Will "the weapons" used by them be found mighty to pull
down the strongholds of sin and Satan, and to bring men's thoughts into
captivity to the obedience of Christ? No. It is the gospel only that will
ever prove to be the power of God to the salvation of the soul. It is
through "you" that the gospel is displayed realistically to a doubting,
unbelieving world.

The efficacy of the gospel changes the whole soul, from sin and sorrow, from
being without hope and without God to holiness and joy, and an intimate
personal relationship with Christ. He gives you the resources of His grace
as the source of your strength. For the troubled mind and heart, He gives a
"peace that passes understanding," "a joy that is unspeakable and full of
glory," the assurance of His presence, and the hope of eternal life. So
complete is this work of grace that it brings the Lord Jesus Christ and the
believer into such a close union with each other, that they are one body
(Ephesians 5:20), and one spirit (1 Corinthians 6:17), partakers of the same
blessings in this world (John 17:13, 22, 23, 26), and heirs of the same
glory in the world to come (Romans 8:17).

So what is the challenge to us who are a "letter from Christ" to a careless
and ungodly world? Paul prayed "that you may live a life worthy of the Lord
and may please Him in every way, bearing fruit in every good work, growing
in the knowledge of God, being strengthened with all power according to His
glorious might so that you may have great endurance and patience, and
joyfully giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share the
inheritance of the saints in the kingdom of light" (Colossians 1:10-12).
Wow, what a prayer and challenge by Paul for every believer!

As a letter "to" the world "from" Christ, let your light so shine before
men, that all who behold it may glorify your Father who is in heaven.


Stu
<mailto:K5stu at sbcglobal.net>K5stu at sbcglobal.net
Reading your Bible today will help prepare you for A Brighter Tomorrow!
_______________________________________________
BlindMen4Christ mailing list
BlindMen4Christ at morales-family.lljfm.net
http://morales-family.lljfm.net/mailman/listinfo/blindmen4christ_morales-fam
ily.lljfm.net




From andrewjedg at gmail.com  Sat Nov 22 17:14:56 2008
From: andrewjedg at gmail.com (Andrew Edgcumbe)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 12:14:56 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] sound equipment and the blind
Message-ID: <ddda981c0811220914n6daed9f5ma613779fd9d26dca@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all

I hope all is well with you guys today.

I have been wanting to do sound at my church but  my worship pastor
said no  because of the visual Q's.

Ifirst asked one of the men to do some sound stuff with me and to show
me some things.
As fr as he has gotten was he showed me what the board felt like.
But the worship pastor is not  letting me do anything in sound because
of the visual Q's thing.

How evera man who does sound and plays guitar with me he said it could
be worked around.

Do any of you guys know any blind people who are doing sound in churches?



From wesley.burden at verizon.net  Sat Nov 22 18:09:17 2008
From: wesley.burden at verizon.net (WESLEY BURDEN)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 13:09:17 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] sound equipment and the blind
In-Reply-To: <ddda981c0811220914n6daed9f5ma613779fd9d26dca@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ddda981c0811220914n6daed9f5ma613779fd9d26dca@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01A22F51636847D9AD30E01A631143DB@Buster>

Andrew does your church stick to a particular format of church services?  I
mean is the church service each week usually the same.  Yes it can be done.
All you need is to familiarize yourself with the mixing board and maybe it
can be labeled so that you know where the buttons are.  Now the cd recorder
is another story because the cd recorders usually have a screen that let's
you know when to record but yet again that can be worked around.  Once you
familiarize yourself with the cd recorder you should be fine.  You just need
to know where the stop pause and track button is that way you can create
tracks on the cd of the service.  It can be done.

 

-----Original Message-----
From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Andrew Edgcumbe
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 12:15 PM
To: Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
Subject: [Faith-talk] sound equipment and the blind

Hi all

I hope all is well with you guys today.

I have been wanting to do sound at my church but  my worship pastor said no
because of the visual Q's.

Ifirst asked one of the men to do some sound stuff with me and to show me
some things.
As fr as he has gotten was he showed me what the board felt like.
But the worship pastor is not  letting me do anything in sound because of
the visual Q's thing.

How evera man who does sound and plays guitar with me he said it could be
worked around.

Do any of you guys know any blind people who are doing sound in churches?

_______________________________________________
Faith-talk mailing list
Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Faith-talk:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/wesley.burden%40
verizon.net




From kk3f at msn.com  Sat Nov 22 18:14:24 2008
From: kk3f at msn.com (Pat Gormley)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 13:14:24 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] sound equipment and the blind
References: <ddda981c0811220914n6daed9f5ma613779fd9d26dca@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY133-DAV6128F4297C70F54B1433D900E0@phx.gbl>

I actually have ridden the gain on a 100 speaker sound system I set up one 
time at a ham radio club function so it's definitely doable.  If your pastor 
won't let you participate then find a church where they will let you be a 
part of the action.  It doesn't sound like he's educable.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Andrew Edgcumbe" <andrewjedg at gmail.com>
To: <Faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 12:14 PM
Subject: [Faith-talk] sound equipment and the blind


> Hi all
>
> I hope all is well with you guys today.
>
> I have been wanting to do sound at my church but  my worship pastor
> said no  because of the visual Q's.
>
> Ifirst asked one of the men to do some sound stuff with me and to show
> me some things.
> As fr as he has gotten was he showed me what the board felt like.
> But the worship pastor is not  letting me do anything in sound because
> of the visual Q's thing.
>
> How evera man who does sound and plays guitar with me he said it could
> be worked around.
>
> Do any of you guys know any blind people who are doing sound in churches?
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/kk3f%40msn.com
> 




From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Sat Nov 22 18:36:08 2008
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 13:36:08 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] FW: [BlindMen4Christ] A Brighter tomorrow
In-Reply-To: <5408F6272FB342E798F66CCBF0CABF0B@Buster>
References: <5408F6272FB342E798F66CCBF0CABF0B@Buster>
Message-ID: <4383d01d0811221036n5222cc8en213321686233bb6@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks so much.  I'm working on my history paper in peace. lol
Beth

On 11/22/08, WESLEY BURDEN <wesley.burden at verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindmen4christ-bounces at morales-family.lljfm.net
> [mailto:blindmen4christ-bounces at morales-family.lljfm.net] On Behalf Of Stu
> (by way of Curtis Delzer <curtis at calweb.com>)
> Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 10:48 AM
> To: Blind men for Christ
> Subject: [BlindMen4Christ] A Brighter tomorrow
>
>
> YOU ARE A LETTER FROM CHRIST
>
>
>
> "You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry,
> written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets
> of stone but on tablets of human hearts." 2 Corinthians 3:3
>
> Have you ever thought that "You" are a letter to the world from Christ? The
> Ten Commandments was God's Law to man written on tables of stone, but God
> has inscribed on the tables of the heart of all who have been redeemed, the
> glorious message of reconciliation.
>
> The transformation brought by the Holy Spirit, is that you have "turned from
> darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God"
> (Acts 26:18). You have become a "new creation." Your views, desires, and
> pursuits are all new. The bent of your life, once focused upon the things of
> time and sense, is now directed to eternal values.
> Christ is the "priority" of your life. When He is in control, you proclaim
> this work of grace in your life to all, that "He is the way, the truth, and
> the life. No man cometh unto the Father but by me."
> And "There is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be
> saved." Nor is there any other foundation whereon any man can build his
> hopes.
>
> You are a letter from Christ to the truth of the gospel. In no other
> religion will there be found a work like that on the day of Pentecost. Will
> the word preached by other faiths be quick, and powerful, and sharper than a
> two-edged sword? Will "the weapons" used by them be found mighty to pull
> down the strongholds of sin and Satan, and to bring men's thoughts into
> captivity to the obedience of Christ? No. It is the gospel only that will
> ever prove to be the power of God to the salvation of the soul. It is
> through "you" that the gospel is displayed realistically to a doubting,
> unbelieving world.
>
> The efficacy of the gospel changes the whole soul, from sin and sorrow, from
> being without hope and without God to holiness and joy, and an intimate
> personal relationship with Christ. He gives you the resources of His grace
> as the source of your strength. For the troubled mind and heart, He gives a
> "peace that passes understanding," "a joy that is unspeakable and full of
> glory," the assurance of His presence, and the hope of eternal life. So
> complete is this work of grace that it brings the Lord Jesus Christ and the
> believer into such a close union with each other, that they are one body
> (Ephesians 5:20), and one spirit (1 Corinthians 6:17), partakers of the same
> blessings in this world (John 17:13, 22, 23, 26), and heirs of the same
> glory in the world to come (Romans 8:17).
>
> So what is the challenge to us who are a "letter from Christ" to a careless
> and ungodly world? Paul prayed "that you may live a life worthy of the Lord
> and may please Him in every way, bearing fruit in every good work, growing
> in the knowledge of God, being strengthened with all power according to His
> glorious might so that you may have great endurance and patience, and
> joyfully giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share the
> inheritance of the saints in the kingdom of light" (Colossians 1:10-12).
> Wow, what a prayer and challenge by Paul for every believer!
>
> As a letter "to" the world "from" Christ, let your light so shine before
> men, that all who behold it may glorify your Father who is in heaven.
>
>
> Stu
> <mailto:K5stu at sbcglobal.net>K5stu at sbcglobal.net
> Reading your Bible today will help prepare you for A Brighter Tomorrow!
> _______________________________________________
> BlindMen4Christ mailing list
> BlindMen4Christ at morales-family.lljfm.net
> http://morales-family.lljfm.net/mailman/listinfo/blindmen4christ_morales-fam
> ily.lljfm.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>



From mentink at frontiernet.net  Sat Nov 22 18:47:12 2008
From: mentink at frontiernet.net (Linda Mentink)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 12:47:12 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] sound equipment and the blind
In-Reply-To: <ddda981c0811220914n6daed9f5ma613779fd9d26dca@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <ddda981c0811220914n6daed9f5ma613779fd9d26dca@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081122184710.E169ECCCD9@relay04.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>

Hi Andrew,

It depends on what kind of visual cues he is talking about.  I did a 
little in the sound room at my former church during VBS.  Does your 
pastor not understand that visual cues can be verbal most of the time 
by your just paying close attention at all times to thethings going 
on.  Oftentimes, sighted people are distracted, and therefore don't 
turn off or on the right thing at the right time.  Tell him you'd 
like to give it a go with someone there the first time or two.  He's 
afraid to trust you, most likely.

Blessings,

Linda




From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Sat Nov 22 21:38:18 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 15:38:18 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] sound equipment and the blind
References: <ddda981c0811220914n6daed9f5ma613779fd9d26dca@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B2D9C39BA4B442A2B01A809ADA975853@your4dacd0ea75>

I've ministered music in African-American churches for 36 years.  Is this 
the sound you're asking about or PA sound?  There are people who don't think 
blind people can't play with sighted musicians, so this is a real prejudice. 
If they can't say what channel needs to go up or down with clarity, it's 
their loss, don't you think?  I haven't played music in every church I've 
been to and was better off for it.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Andrew Edgcumbe" <andrewjedg at gmail.com>
To: <Faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 11:14 AM
Subject: [Faith-talk] sound equipment and the blind


> Hi all
>
> I hope all is well with you guys today.
>
> I have been wanting to do sound at my church but  my worship pastor
> said no  because of the visual Q's.
>
> Ifirst asked one of the men to do some sound stuff with me and to show
> me some things.
> As fr as he has gotten was he showed me what the board felt like.
> But the worship pastor is not  letting me do anything in sound because
> of the visual Q's thing.
>
> How evera man who does sound and plays guitar with me he said it could
> be worked around.
>
> Do any of you guys know any blind people who are doing sound in churches?
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
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10:34 AM




From everettg at successfuladaptations.com  Sat Nov 22 23:17:42 2008
From: everettg at successfuladaptations.com (Everett Gavel)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 18:17:42 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] sound equipment and the blind
References: <ddda981c0811220914n6daed9f5ma613779fd9d26dca@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005001c94cf8$8541eb60$0e7ba463@IBMB7D6F383D44>

Hello Andrew, and all,

Unfortunately, Andrew, your worship pastor sounds 
typically ignorant in their lack of any real 
understanding of the situation.  Please print out and 
share with him these replies you have gotten from some 
of us here. Or forward them to him via e-mail so he can 
ask his own questions if he'd like.  Be careful though, 
as he might be surprised to know blind people can use 
computers, too.  ;-)

Sarcasm aside now, though, of course you can do the 
sound board if you wish, and if anyone there is loving 
enough, caring enough, and doesn't let their typical 
pride get in the way of truly helping.  All they need 
do is show you the first and maybe second time, same as 
they would a sighted member of the church.  It's your 
job, of course, to record or remember what you're 
taught, and to put labels or markings, and whatever 
else you need, to get the job done.  It's their job to 
give you a chance and show you just as they would 
anyone new they brought in.  Or should I say to remind 
them, anyone that God brought in to them.  God is 
sovereign.  We are all exactly where He wants us at 
this moment.  We are here to work with all those around 
us, whom God has also placed there.

Andrew, this is of course more for your pastor and 
sound guy than you, but, there are lots of people who 
happen to be blind, that are computer users, and 
computer trainers.  There are ham radio experts, radio 
station employees and even on-air, radio DJs.  The guy 
here on WDOK 102.5 out of Cleveland on the Morning show 
happens to be blind.  It's his show, he's the main 
dude.  So what if he's blind?  He's found ways to work 
with all the equipment, as does anyone who is serious 
about working.

Right now at Akron U I'm aware of at least one totally 
blind student going through the radio/TV part of a 
Communications degree.  She's currently learning how to 
use, and how to access and make accessible, all the 
necessary equipment that is used these days.

Additionally, Andrew, there are sound mixers, recording 
personnel and recording artists, all who happen to be 
blind.  Beyond that there are Ph.D's who are blind. 
There are also engineers, logicians, statisticians, 
college professors, and teachers all of whom happen to 
be blind.  There are parents who are blind, that have 
raised kids and are raising kids.  There are blind 
college students every year getting their degrees with 
a higher grade point average than either of those guys 
in your church probably had, if they went through 
college.  Blindness has nothing to do with ignorance or 
ability, as your church members just proved once again. 
Now, they may not be ignorant on any other point except 
blindness, but they sound as if they surely are at the 
moment, on this subject.  And so it's our job, our 
challenge, to share the truth with them in a way they 
'get,' and absorb. I hope they do not push their own 
current level of ignorance on blindness onto others. 
God help them.  May He bless them with His wisdom, 
enough so that it overpowers their own supposed 
knowledge on this topic.

Don't be stubborn or prideful in stating your case, 
Andrew.  But please don't bak down from the simple 
truth of it all, either.  And may God bless your 
efforts on this front. Hold yourself well, and 
follow-up and follow through, and show them you're 
capable - if you believe yourself to be.  I  mean no 
disrespect here.  But truly, there are some who just 
aren't capable, though it has nothing really to do with 
their blindness.  But some just give a poor showing of 
themselves - more often than not - as a person who is 
blind.  Many people let themselves be taken care of too 
much, and so it's as much our fault in those times as 
anyone's that others around us may not think us 
capable, y'know?  Though you've only thus far given a 
few messages here, you don't seem like such a person, 
thankfully.  But it is easy for us to take the easier 
way out and let others do too much for us simply 
because they too often try, thinking we probably can't. 
And when we give in and take that easy way out, it 
lessens our level of capability in others' minds, I 
believe.

Anyway, Sir, God bless your efforts, and the 
relationship between all of you there.  We'll be 
praying on this for you, and for them.  I have no doubt 
it wil ultimately turn out for His Glory.  Our God is a 
sovereign God.  Thank You Jesus, for your love and for 
your grace.  Please help us to have more of both, for 
eachother and all around us.

God's in charge!  Thank You, Jesus.


Paul said it well...
"I long to see you that I may impart to you some 
spiritual gift to make you strong--
That is, that you and I may be mutually encouraged by 
each other's faith."
~ Romans 1:11-12


Strive On!
Everett
www.everettgavel.com



----- Original Message ----- 
>
> I have been wanting to do sound at my church but  my 
> worship pastor
> said no  because of the visual Q's.
>
> Ifirst asked one of the men to do some sound stuff 
> with me and to show
> me some things.
> As fr as he has gotten was he showed me what the 
> board felt like.
> But the worship pastor is not  letting me do anything 
> in sound because
> of the visual Q's thing.
>
> How evera man who does sound and plays guitar with me 
> he said it could
> be worked around.
>
> Do any of you guys know any blind people who are 
> doing sound in churches?
>





From everettg at successfuladaptations.com  Sat Nov 22 23:31:18 2008
From: everettg at successfuladaptations.com (Everett Gavel)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 18:31:18 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] sound equipment and the blind
Message-ID: <000401c94cfa$6c4efa60$0e7ba463@IBMB7D6F383D44>

Hello Andrew, and all,

Unfortunately, Andrew, your worship pastor sounds
typically ignorant in their lack of any real
understanding of the situation.  Please print out and
share with him these replies you have gotten from some
of us here. Or forward them to him via e-mail so he can
ask his own questions if he'd like.  Be careful though,
as he might be surprised to know blind people can use
computers, too.  ;-)

Sarcasm aside now, though, of course you can do the
sound board if you wish, and if anyone there is loving
enough, caring enough, and doesn't let their typical
pride get in the way of truly helping.  All they need
do is show you the first and maybe second time, same as
they would a sighted member of the church.  It's your
job, of course, to record or remember what you're
taught, and to put labels or markings, and whatever
else you need, to get the job done.  It's their job to
give you a chance and show you just as they would
anyone new they brought in.  Or should I say to remind
them, anyone that God brought in to them.  God is
sovereign.  We are all exactly where He wants us at
this moment.  We are here to work with all those around
us, whom God has also placed there.

Andrew, this is of course more for your pastor and
sound guy than you, but, there are lots of people who
happen to be blind, that are computer users, and
computer trainers.  There are ham radio experts, radio
station employees and even on-air, radio DJs.  The guy
here on WDOK 102.5 out of Cleveland on the Morning show
happens to be blind.  It's his show, he's the main
dude.  So what if he's blind?  He's found ways to work
with all the equipment, as does anyone who is serious
about working.

Right now at Akron U I'm aware of at least one totally
blind student going through the radio/TV part of a
Communications degree.  She's currently learning how to
use, and how to access and make accessible, all the
necessary equipment that is used these days.

Additionally, Andrew, there are sound mixers, recording
personnel and recording artists, all who happen to be
blind.  Beyond that there are Ph.D's who are blind.
There are also engineers, logicians, statisticians,
college professors, and teachers all of whom happen to
be blind.  There are parents who are blind, that have
raised kids and are raising kids.  There are blind
college students every year getting their degrees with
a higher grade point average than either of those guys
in your church probably had, if they went through
college.  Blindness has nothing to do with ignorance or
ability, as your church members just proved once again.
Now, they may not be ignorant on any other point except
blindness, but they sound as if they surely are at the
moment, on this subject.  And so it's our job, our
challenge, to share the truth with them in a way they
'get,' and absorb. I hope they do not push their own
current level of ignorance on blindness onto others.
God help them.  May He bless them with His wisdom,
enough so that it overpowers their own supposed
knowledge on this topic.

Don't be stubborn or prideful in stating your case,
Andrew.  But please don't bak down from the simple
truth of it all, either.  And may God bless your
efforts on this front. Hold yourself well, and
follow-up and follow through, and show them you're
capable - if you believe yourself to be.  I  mean no
disrespect here.  But truly, there are some who just
aren't capable, though it has nothing really to do with
their blindness.  But some just give a poor showing of
themselves - more often than not - as a person who is
blind.  Many people let themselves be taken care of too
much, and so it's as much our fault in those times as
anyone's that others around us may not think us
capable, y'know?  Though you've only thus far given a
few messages here, you don't seem like such a person,
thankfully.  But it is easy for us to take the easier
way out and let others do too much for us simply
because they too often try, thinking we probably can't.
And when we give in and take that easy way out, it
lessens our level of capability in others' minds, I
believe.

Anyway, Sir, God bless your efforts, and the
relationship between all of you there.  We'll be
praying on this for you, and for them.  I have no doubt
it wil ultimately turn out for His Glory.  Our God is a
sovereign God.  Thank You Jesus, for your love and for
your grace.  Please help us to have more of both, for
eachother and all around us.

God's in charge!  Thank You, Jesus.


Paul said it well...
"I long to see you that I may impart to you some
spiritual gift to make you strong--
That is, that you and I may be mutually encouraged by
each other's faith."
~ Romans 1:11-12


Strive On!
Everett
www.everettgavel.com



----- Original Message ----- 
>
> I have been wanting to do sound at my church but  my 
> worship pastor
> said no  because of the visual Q's.
>
> Ifirst asked one of the men to do some sound stuff 
> with me and to show
> me some things.
> As fr as he has gotten was he showed me what the 
> board felt like.
> But the worship pastor is not  letting me do anything 
> in sound because
> of the visual Q's thing.
>
> How evera man who does sound and plays guitar with me 
> he said it could
> be worked around.
>
> Do any of you guys know any blind people who are 
> doing sound in churches?
>






From kk3f at msn.com  Sun Nov 23 00:22:32 2008
From: kk3f at msn.com (Pat Gormley)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 19:22:32 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] sound equipment and the blind
Message-ID: <BAY133-DAV13CB08FE56FEE779B225F690090@phx.gbl>

On a side issue, I've played as a principal player among sighted musicians for nearly 50 years.  Our church doesn't have much of a demand for sound work but I did fix a problem with a public address system when a pager signal was rectifying a pager signal.  I just shut an extra mic off and that temporarily fixed the problem.  

From andrewjedg at gmail.com  Sun Nov 23 02:37:02 2008
From: andrewjedg at gmail.com (Andrew Edgcumbe)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 21:37:02 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] thanks everit
Message-ID: <ddda981c0811221837s4c9c7a80y3d1ac791c5ab274a@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Everit

Thanks for your reply on the sound issue.

I do have some support from the  other members in the church that are
involved in  music.

I  don't know if he would step in and say something or not.

One thing he did say to me is basically that he would rather teach
somebody else rather than me i fought it was kind of rude of him to
say that.

Pastors are sapost to  encourrage people not keep putting people out
of ministry.



From everettg at successfuladaptations.com  Sun Nov 23 04:07:18 2008
From: everettg at successfuladaptations.com (Everett Gavel)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 23:07:18 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] thanks everit
References: <ddda981c0811221837s4c9c7a80y3d1ac791c5ab274a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c94d20$fab52ec0$0e7ba463@IBMB7D6F383D44>

Hello Andrew, and all,

You're welcome, Andrew.  No problem.  Always happy to 
help if and when I can.

And now, what I'm about to say, I mean respectfully. 
Please take it only as the help I'm trying to give it 
as.  If you want to gain someone's respect, we often 
have to try harder than someone without a disability, I 
get that.  No worries.  But we have to pay attention to 
details, quite often, to do a job right.  And so I want 
to suggest to any who may benefit, not just you here, 
Andrew, to please begin paying attention to the details 
of spelling.  Though many people both sighted and 
blind, are fairly poor spellers, it often seems far 
more regular among the blind.  Too many of us, me 
included, put too much trust in our automated voices 
and often don't pay attention to the facts.  This 
leaves us looking bad in others eyes who may ever read 
the things we post on e-mail lists, or in messages 
written to others.  And yes, possible jobs and 
employers may well look you up online to see what 
you're involved in, if anything, when considering 
hiring you.  No, your situation is not a paying job, 
but more people need to keep this tip in mind, as many 
of us would like to work regularly.  Anyway, in this 
instance, I'm just saying to perhaps begin paying more 
attention to details, including the details of spelling 
correctly, typing slower or more accurately, etc. 
Because quite often, the lack of attention to details 
that shows itself in e-mail can be found in other parts 
of one's life, too.

Now, the reason I bring this up is that names of people 
we respond to are easy to check to see how they're 
spelled.  Most times right after you hit the command to 
Reply, you just arrow down a couple lines to see the 
spelling of the person's name to whom you're 
responding.  And yet few seem to care enough to do 
that.  For instance, not that it's a big deal other 
than that this lack of attention to details may hurt 
you in trying to learn or remember the sound system to 
run it.  But, my name for instance, is spelled, 
E-v-e-r-e-t-t, not, Everit.  Though that's better than 
how some have butchered it (smile).

Anyway, it's just a friendly suggestion, seriously, to 
simply begin paying more attention to details.  And I'm 
not talking to just you here Andrew.  Like I've said, 
this is unfortunately an all too common problem among 
the blind, at least with e-mail.  I do it too.  Just 
the other day I realized I was spelling someone's name 
wrong, as 'Kristy' rather than the correct (for her) 
'Kristi.'  Ugh.  Anyway, from an occasional hypocrite, 
there's a tip to try to help.  Take it or leave it. 
(smile)

Well, only a 'hypocrite' in the same sense that 
Christians are all too often called hypocrites.  While 
some foolish people are, most are not.  It's just that 
we, of course, while knowing the correct ways God tells 
us to live, and God tells us to tell others about His 
Word, the Holy Bible, while we try day by day, we still 
fail miserably now and then.  And so we're called 
hypocrites.  To that I give a hearty Bah Humbug.  We 
just fail, or make mistakes, and then begin again, 
anew.  The thing about a Christian is, we never stop 
trying to do our best and be our best for our Lord. 
Thank You, Jesus.


John 6:28-29 (NIV)
28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the 
works God requires?"
29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe 
in the one he has sent."


Strive On!
Everett
----- 
"We live by faith, not by sight."
~ 2 Cor 5:7 ?




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Andrew Edgcumbe" <andrewjedg at gmail.com>
To: <Faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 9:37 PM
Subject: [Faith-talk] thanks everit


> Hi Everit
>
> Thanks for your reply on the sound issue.
>
> I do have some support from the  other members in the 
> church that are
> involved in  music.
>
> I  don't know if he would step in and say something 
> or not.
>
> One thing he did say to me is basically that he would 
> rather teach
> somebody else rather than me i fought it was kind of 
> rude of him to
> say that.
>
> Pastors are sapost to  encourrage people not keep 
> putting people out
> of ministry.
>




From sslucki at chariot.net.au  Sun Nov 23 04:21:55 2008
From: sslucki at chariot.net.au (Stefan Slucki)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 14:51:55 +1030
Subject: [Faith-talk] sound equipment and the blind
References: <ddda981c0811220914n6daed9f5ma613779fd9d26dca@mail.gmail.com>
	<01A22F51636847D9AD30E01A631143DB@Buster>
Message-ID: <2F83059E277444DBA0FCABE26946A82D@stefan706c912c>

Hi Andrew and list,

Andrew, when you say the worship pastor said "no" it could either be "no 
absolutely no, never you'll not be able to do it" or it could be "no, not 
right now, it's expensive and finely-tuned equipment, you'd need training 
first".

If it was the first kind of "no" then maybe some sort of protest is called 
for, but if the very cautious, nervously-defensive, protective kind of 
response then perhaps some patient persistence.

If you can, tell us what the gear used is i.e. the models and what you are 
trying to achieve.

Dymo-labelling with braille or even marking with glue-dots is useful.

Best wishes;

Stefan Slucki.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "WESLEY BURDEN" <wesley.burden at verizon.net>
To: "'Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion'" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 4:39 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] sound equipment and the blind


> Andrew does your church stick to a particular format of church services? 
> I
> mean is the church service each week usually the same.  Yes it can be 
> done.
> All you need is to familiarize yourself with the mixing board and maybe it
> can be labeled so that you know where the buttons are.  Now the cd 
> recorder
> is another story because the cd recorders usually have a screen that let's
> you know when to record but yet again that can be worked around.  Once you
> familiarize yourself with the cd recorder you should be fine.  You just 
> need
> to know where the stop pause and track button is that way you can create
> tracks on the cd of the service.  It can be done.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On Behalf Of Andrew Edgcumbe
> Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 12:15 PM
> To: Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> Subject: [Faith-talk] sound equipment and the blind
>
> Hi all
>
> I hope all is well with you guys today.
>
> I have been wanting to do sound at my church but  my worship pastor said 
> no
> because of the visual Q's.
>
> Ifirst asked one of the men to do some sound stuff with me and to show me
> some things.
> As fr as he has gotten was he showed me what the board felt like.
> But the worship pastor is not  letting me do anything in sound because of
> the visual Q's thing.
>
> How evera man who does sound and plays guitar with me he said it could be
> worked around.
>
> Do any of you guys know any blind people who are doing sound in churches?
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/wesley.burden%40
> verizon.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/sslucki%40chariot.net.au
>
>


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6:24 PM




From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Sun Nov 23 09:34:35 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 03:34:35 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] thanks everit
References: <ddda981c0811221837s4c9c7a80y3d1ac791c5ab274a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F87436106D7141989F5437631AFB7978@Alan>

The sad thing is I've seen a number of clergy come out and admit they didn't want to minister to the blind.  Where I used to live in Illinois, a pastor asked the local clergy association what kind of outreach they did for the blind, and the basic reply was "We don't reach out to those people.  Those aren't the kind of people we want in our church."


+-+-+-

   For he who has died has been freed from sin. 
 Romans 6:7
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Andrew Edgcumbe" <andrewjedg at gmail.com>
To: <Faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 8:37 PM
Subject: [Faith-talk] thanks everit


> Hi Everit
> 
> Thanks for your reply on the sound issue.
> 
> I do have some support from the  other members in the church that are
> involved in  music.
> 
> I  don't know if he would step in and say something or not.
> 
> One thing he did say to me is basically that he would rather teach
> somebody else rather than me i fought it was kind of rude of him to
> say that.
> 
> Pastors are sapost to  encourrage people not keep putting people out
> of ministry.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com


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From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Sun Nov 23 14:58:26 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 08:58:26 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Happy Thanksgiving
Message-ID: <C0F4D8DE64C64C2FBB9EF75925974FA3@your4dacd0ea75>

Wishing you the best and happiest Thanksgiving.  

"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul," American Humorist Mark Twain

"An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind

"A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV

"Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)

"No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push, 1976.

"With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic," the Late Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation of the Blind.

Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com 





From wesley.burden at verizon.net  Mon Nov 24 16:11:48 2008
From: wesley.burden at verizon.net (WESLEY BURDEN)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 11:11:48 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] FW: [BlindMen4Christ] Thanksgiving Thanks!
Message-ID: <F6DDED57C2FF49ECA4E0548C8D6AC26A@Buster>

 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindmen4christ-bounces at morales-family.lljfm.net
[mailto:blindmen4christ-bounces at morales-family.lljfm.net] On Behalf Of Stu
(by way of Curtis Delzer <curtis at calweb.com>)
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 10:46 AM
To: Blind men for Christ
Subject: [BlindMen4Christ] Thanksgiving Thanks!

Thanksgiving Classic: Thankful For The Thorns

Sandra felt as low as the heels of her shoes when she pulled open the
florist shop door, against a November gust of wind. Her life had been as
sweet as a spring breeze and then, in the fourth month of her second
pregnancy, a "minor" automobile accident stole her joy. This was
Thanksgiving week and the time she should have delivered their infant son.
She grieved over their loss.

Troubles had multiplied. Her husband's company "threatened" to transfer his
job to a new location. Her sister had called to say that she could not come
on her long awaited holiday visit. What's worse, Sandra's friend suggested
that Sandra's grief was a God-given path to maturity that would allow her to
empathize with others who suffer.

"Had she lost a child?  She has no idea what I'm feeling," thought Sandra
with a shudder. "Thanksgiving? Thankful for what?" she wondered. "For a
careless driver whose truck was hardly scratched when he rear-ended her? For
an airbag that saved her life, but took her child's?"

"Good afternoon, can I help you?" Sandra was startled by the approach of the
shop clerk.

"I.... I need an arrangement," stammered Sandra.

"For Thanksgiving?"  Sandra nodded.  Do you want the beautiful but ordinary,
or would you like to challenge the day with a customer favorite I call the
'Thanksgiving Special'?  I'm convinced that flowers tell stories," 
she continued. "Are you looking for something that conveys 'gratitude' this
Thanksgiving?"


"Not exactly!" Sandra blurted out. "In the last five months, everything that
could go wrong has gone wrong." Sandra regretted her outburst, and was
surprised when the clerk said, "I have the perfect arrangement for you."

Then the bell on the door rang, and the clerk greeted the new customer, "Hi,
Barbara... let me get your order." She excused herself and walked back to a
small workroom, then quickly reappeared, carrying an arrangement of
greenery, bows, and what appeared to be long-stemmed thorny roses. 
Except the ends
of the rose stems were neatly snipped: there were no flowers.

"Do you want these in a box?" asked the clerk.

Sandra watched for the customer's response. Was this a joke? Who would want
rose stems with no flowers! She waited for laughter, but neither woman
laughed.
"Yes, please," Barbara replied with an appreciative smile. "You'd think
after three years of getting the special, I wouldn't be so moved by its
significance, but I can feel it right here, all over again." She said, as
she gently tapped her chest.

Sandra stammered, "That lady just left with, uh.... she left with no
flowers!"

"That's right, said the clerk. "I cut off the flowers. That's the 'Special'.
I call it the Thanksgiving Thorns Bouquet."

"Oh, come on! You can't tell me someone is willing to pay for that!" 
exclaimed Sandra.

"Barbara came into the shop three years ago, feeling much as you do, today,"
explained the clerk. "She thought she had very little to be thankful for.
She had just lost her father to cancer; the family business was failing; her
son had gotten into drugs; and she was facing major surgery."

"That same year I had lost my husband," continued the clerk. "For the first
time in my life, I had to spend the holidays alone. I had no children, no
husband, no family nearby, and too much debt to allow any travel."

"So what did you do?" asked Sandra.

"I learned to be thankful for thorns," answered the clerk quietly. 
"I've always thanked God for the good things in my life and I NEVER
questioned Him why those GOOD things happened to me, but when the bad stuff
hit, I cried out, "WHY? WHY Me?!" It took time for me to learn that the dark
times are important to our faith! I have always enjoyed the 'flowers' of my
life, but it took the thorns to show me the beauty of God's comfort! You
know, the Bible says that God comforts us when we're afflicted, and from His
consolation we learn to comfort others."

Sandra sucked in her breath, as she thought about the thought that her
friend had tried to tell her. "I guess the truth is, I don't want comfort.
I've lost a baby and I'm angry with God."

Just then someone else walked in the shop. "Hey, Phil!" the clerk greeted
the balding, rotund man. "My wife sent me in to get our usual Thanksgiving
arrangement...
twelve thorny, long-stemmed stems!" laughed Phil as the clerk handed him a
tissue wrapped arrangement from the refrigerator.

"Those are for your wife?" asked Sandra incredulously. "Do you mind telling
me why she wants a bouquet that looks like that?"

"No... I'm glad you asked," Phil replied. "Four years ago, my wife and I
nearly divorced. After forty years, we were in a real mess, but with the
Lord's grace and guidance, we trudged through problem after problem. The
Lord rescued our marriage. Jenny (the clerk) told me she kept a vase of rose
stems to remind her of what she had learned from "thorny" times. That was
good enough for me. I took home some of those stems. My wife and I decided
to label each one for a specific "problem" and give thanks for what that
problem taught us." As Phil paid the clerk, he said to Sandra, "I highly
recommend the Special!"


"I don't know if I can be thankful for the thorns in my life." Sandra said
to the clerk. "It's all too... fresh."

"Well," the clerk replied carefully, "my experience has shown me that the
thorns make the roses more precious. We treasure God's providential care
more during trouble than at any other time. Remember that it was a crown of
thorns that Jesus wore so we might know His love. Don't resent the thorns."

Tears rolled down Sandra's cheeks. For the first time since the accident,
she loosened her grip on her resentment. "I'll take those twelve
long-stemmed thorns, please," she managed to choke out.

"I hoped you would," said the clerk gently. "I'll have them ready in a
minute."

"Thank you. What do I owe you?"

"Nothing. Nothing but a promise to allow God to heal your heart. The first
year's arrangement is always on me." The clerk smiled and handed a card to
Sandra.
"I'll attach this card to your arrangement, but maybe you would like to read
it first."

It read:

My God, I have never thanked You for my thorns. I have thanked You a
thousand times for my roses, but never once for my thorns. Teach me the
glory of the cross I bear; teach me the value of my thorns. Show me that I
have climbed closer to You along the path of pain. Show me that, through my
tears, the colors of Your rainbow look much more brilliant."

Praise Him for the roses; thank Him for the thorns.
Stu
<mailto:K5stu at sbcglobal.net>K5stu at sbcglobal.net
Reading your Bible today will help prepare you for A Brighter Tomorrow!
_______________________________________________
BlindMen4Christ mailing list
BlindMen4Christ at morales-family.lljfm.net
http://morales-family.lljfm.net/mailman/listinfo/blindmen4christ_morales-fam
ily.lljfm.net




From bethkats at cox.net  Tue Nov 25 01:40:56 2008
From: bethkats at cox.net (Beth Kats)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 17:40:56 -0800
Subject: [Faith-talk] a sermon that inspired me!
Message-ID: <001101c94e9e$dc9102a0$c9926f44@windows6996273>

I heard a sermon one time in church.  I get them on CD.  People put them on
CD. For me, so I can hear them again.  It inspired me because it talked
about God's mercy, which we do not deserve.  The Pastor reminded us not to
hang on to another person's sin against you.  I am guilty of that.  I think
that is why I am depressed so often.  I am ashamed that I dwell on the past
and have so much anger with people who said things to me that I continue to
hold on to.  I will commit to working on it by praying about it.  I would
appreciate your prayers as well, please!

Thanks,

Beth



From cedarwoman1965 at gmail.com  Tue Nov 25 09:58:24 2008
From: cedarwoman1965 at gmail.com (Bonnie A)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 03:58:24 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] a sermon that inspired me!
References: <001101c94e9e$dc9102a0$c9926f44@windows6996273>
Message-ID: <EE3DB685B1204423893FABD038F4AF2F@Bonnie>

Beth,

You've got it!  II believe it's important to have other people pray with and 
for us.  As for myself, I struggle with my own sin and am often reminded by 
a t-shirt I saw worn by a fellow member of the congregation of the church I 
attended.  It simply said, "die daily."  I believe in my heart of hearts 
that's what we have to do, to surrender that part of ourselves to Christ. 
I'm still working on that part of myself daily and some days it's an uphill 
battle.  LOL!

------
Bonnie Ainsworth
Lincoln, NE USA

File not found ! Should I fake it? (Y/N)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth Kats" <bethkats at cox.net>
To: "'Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion'" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 7:40 PM
Subject: [Faith-talk] a sermon that inspired me!


I heard a sermon one time in church.  I get them on CD.  People put them on
CD. For me, so I can hear them again.  It inspired me because it talked
about God's mercy, which we do not deserve.  The Pastor reminded us not to
hang on to another person's sin against you.  I am guilty of that.  I think
that is why I am depressed so often.  I am ashamed that I dwell on the past
and have so much anger with people who said things to me that I continue to
hold on to.  I will commit to working on it by praying about it.  I would
appreciate your prayers as well, please! 




From cedarwoman1965 at gmail.com  Tue Nov 25 10:00:26 2008
From: cedarwoman1965 at gmail.com (Bonnie A)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 04:00:26 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] FW: [BlindMen4Christ] Thanksgiving Thanks!
References: <F6DDED57C2FF49ECA4E0548C8D6AC26A@Buster>
Message-ID: <E961E92BD3814721A80A5C11417C0064@Bonnie>

This is one I really appreciate, especially since I've really been in a 
valley of my own the last year and a half, especially.  Thanks for sharing 
this one, Wesley.

------
Bonnie Ainsworth
Lincoln, NE USA

File not found ! Should I fake it? (Y/N)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "WESLEY BURDEN" <wesley.burden at verizon.net>
To: "'Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion'" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 10:11 AM
Subject: [Faith-talk] FW: [BlindMen4Christ] Thanksgiving Thanks!




-----Original Message-----
From: blindmen4christ-bounces at morales-family.lljfm.net
[mailto:blindmen4christ-bounces at morales-family.lljfm.net] On Behalf Of Stu
(by way of Curtis Delzer <curtis at calweb.com>)
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 10:46 AM
To: Blind men for Christ
Subject: [BlindMen4Christ] Thanksgiving Thanks!

Thanksgiving Classic: Thankful For The Thorns

Sandra felt as low as the heels of her shoes when she pulled open the
florist shop door, against a November gust of wind. Her life had been as
sweet as a spring breeze and then, in the fourth month of her second
pregnancy, a "minor" automobile accident stole her joy. This was
Thanksgiving week and the time she should have delivered their infant son.
She grieved over their loss.

Troubles had multiplied. Her husband's company "threatened" to transfer his
job to a new location. Her sister had called to say that she could not come
on her long awaited holiday visit. What's worse, Sandra's friend suggested
that Sandra's grief was a God-given path to maturity that would allow her to
empathize with others who suffer.

"Had she lost a child?  She has no idea what I'm feeling," thought Sandra
with a shudder. "Thanksgiving? Thankful for what?" she wondered. "For a
careless driver whose truck was hardly scratched when he rear-ended her? For
an airbag that saved her life, but took her child's?"

"Good afternoon, can I help you?" Sandra was startled by the approach of the
shop clerk.

"I.... I need an arrangement," stammered Sandra.

"For Thanksgiving?"  Sandra nodded.  Do you want the beautiful but ordinary,
or would you like to challenge the day with a customer favorite I call the
'Thanksgiving Special'?  I'm convinced that flowers tell stories,"
she continued. "Are you looking for something that conveys 'gratitude' this
Thanksgiving?"


"Not exactly!" Sandra blurted out. "In the last five months, everything that
could go wrong has gone wrong." Sandra regretted her outburst, and was
surprised when the clerk said, "I have the perfect arrangement for you."

Then the bell on the door rang, and the clerk greeted the new customer, "Hi,
Barbara... let me get your order." She excused herself and walked back to a
small workroom, then quickly reappeared, carrying an arrangement of
greenery, bows, and what appeared to be long-stemmed thorny roses.
Except the ends
of the rose stems were neatly snipped: there were no flowers.

"Do you want these in a box?" asked the clerk.

Sandra watched for the customer's response. Was this a joke? Who would want
rose stems with no flowers! She waited for laughter, but neither woman
laughed.
"Yes, please," Barbara replied with an appreciative smile. "You'd think
after three years of getting the special, I wouldn't be so moved by its
significance, but I can feel it right here, all over again." She said, as
she gently tapped her chest.

Sandra stammered, "That lady just left with, uh.... she left with no
flowers!"

"That's right, said the clerk. "I cut off the flowers. That's the 'Special'.
I call it the Thanksgiving Thorns Bouquet."

"Oh, come on! You can't tell me someone is willing to pay for that!"
exclaimed Sandra.

"Barbara came into the shop three years ago, feeling much as you do, today,"
explained the clerk. "She thought she had very little to be thankful for.
She had just lost her father to cancer; the family business was failing; her
son had gotten into drugs; and she was facing major surgery."

"That same year I had lost my husband," continued the clerk. "For the first
time in my life, I had to spend the holidays alone. I had no children, no
husband, no family nearby, and too much debt to allow any travel."

"So what did you do?" asked Sandra.

"I learned to be thankful for thorns," answered the clerk quietly.
"I've always thanked God for the good things in my life and I NEVER
questioned Him why those GOOD things happened to me, but when the bad stuff
hit, I cried out, "WHY? WHY Me?!" It took time for me to learn that the dark
times are important to our faith! I have always enjoyed the 'flowers' of my
life, but it took the thorns to show me the beauty of God's comfort! You
know, the Bible says that God comforts us when we're afflicted, and from His
consolation we learn to comfort others."

Sandra sucked in her breath, as she thought about the thought that her
friend had tried to tell her. "I guess the truth is, I don't want comfort.
I've lost a baby and I'm angry with God."

Just then someone else walked in the shop. "Hey, Phil!" the clerk greeted
the balding, rotund man. "My wife sent me in to get our usual Thanksgiving
arrangement...
twelve thorny, long-stemmed stems!" laughed Phil as the clerk handed him a
tissue wrapped arrangement from the refrigerator.

"Those are for your wife?" asked Sandra incredulously. "Do you mind telling
me why she wants a bouquet that looks like that?"

"No... I'm glad you asked," Phil replied. "Four years ago, my wife and I
nearly divorced. After forty years, we were in a real mess, but with the
Lord's grace and guidance, we trudged through problem after problem. The
Lord rescued our marriage. Jenny (the clerk) told me she kept a vase of rose
stems to remind her of what she had learned from "thorny" times. That was
good enough for me. I took home some of those stems. My wife and I decided
to label each one for a specific "problem" and give thanks for what that
problem taught us." As Phil paid the clerk, he said to Sandra, "I highly
recommend the Special!"


"I don't know if I can be thankful for the thorns in my life." Sandra said
to the clerk. "It's all too... fresh."

"Well," the clerk replied carefully, "my experience has shown me that the
thorns make the roses more precious. We treasure God's providential care
more during trouble than at any other time. Remember that it was a crown of
thorns that Jesus wore so we might know His love. Don't resent the thorns."

Tears rolled down Sandra's cheeks. For the first time since the accident,
she loosened her grip on her resentment. "I'll take those twelve
long-stemmed thorns, please," she managed to choke out.

"I hoped you would," said the clerk gently. "I'll have them ready in a
minute."

"Thank you. What do I owe you?"

"Nothing. Nothing but a promise to allow God to heal your heart. The first
year's arrangement is always on me." The clerk smiled and handed a card to
Sandra.
"I'll attach this card to your arrangement, but maybe you would like to read
it first."

It read:

My God, I have never thanked You for my thorns. I have thanked You a
thousand times for my roses, but never once for my thorns. Teach me the
glory of the cross I bear; teach me the value of my thorns. Show me that I
have climbed closer to You along the path of pain. Show me that, through my
tears, the colors of Your rainbow look much more brilliant." 




From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Tue Nov 25 10:57:29 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 04:57:29 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] a sermon that inspired me!
References: <001101c94e9e$dc9102a0$c9926f44@windows6996273>
Message-ID: <40674627C7FB42A6B16307798543EBE4@Alan>

Beth,
As you pray about it, make an effort to surrender those feelings of hurt and resentment to God.  Lay them at the foot of the cross.  They aren't too big for God to heal you of them. We need to surrender every aspect of our lives to Christ, but the hardest part to surrender is the hurt, angry and resentful parts of our lives and hearts. I'll be praying for you.

In Christ,

Alan

+-+-+-

   There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. 
 1 Samuel 2:2
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth Kats" <bethkats at cox.net>
To: "'Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion'" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 7:40 PM
Subject: [Faith-talk] a sermon that inspired me!


>I heard a sermon one time in church.  I get them on CD.  People put them on
> CD. For me, so I can hear them again.  It inspired me because it talked
> about God's mercy, which we do not deserve.  The Pastor reminded us not to
> hang on to another person's sin against you.  I am guilty of that.  I think
> that is why I am depressed so often.  I am ashamed that I dwell on the past
> and have so much anger with people who said things to me that I continue to
> hold on to.  I will commit to working on it by praying about it.  I would
> appreciate your prayers as well, please!
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Beth
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.10/1810 - Release Date: 11/24/2008 2:36 PM




From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Tue Nov 25 11:00:10 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 05:00:10 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] a sermon that inspired me!
References: <001101c94e9e$dc9102a0$c9926f44@windows6996273>
	<EE3DB685B1204423893FABD038F4AF2F@Bonnie>
Message-ID: <1BCC1048440542A4BF910DDB8F61B7D1@Alan>

There's power in that surrender.  I learned that recently thanks in part to a lesson on a radio ministry I like.  We see surrender as a sign of weakness, but when we're surrendering to Jesus...to God Himself...there is actually power in that surrender, and we find our faith is strengthened.


+-+-+-

   He has made clear to you, O man, what is good; and what is desired from you by the Lord; only doing what is 
 right, and loving mercy, and walking without pride before your God. Micah 6:8
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bonnie A" <cedarwoman1965 at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 3:58 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] a sermon that inspired me!


> Beth,
> 
> You've got it!  II believe it's important to have other people pray with and 
> for us.  As for myself, I struggle with my own sin and am often reminded by 
> a t-shirt I saw worn by a fellow member of the congregation of the church I 
> attended.  It simply said, "die daily."  I believe in my heart of hearts 
> that's what we have to do, to surrender that part of ourselves to Christ. 
> I'm still working on that part of myself daily and some days it's an uphill 
> battle.  LOL!
> 
> ------
> Bonnie Ainsworth
> Lincoln, NE USA
> 
> File not found ! Should I fake it? (Y/N)
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Beth Kats" <bethkats at cox.net>
> To: "'Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion'" 
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 7:40 PM
> Subject: [Faith-talk] a sermon that inspired me!
> 
> 
> I heard a sermon one time in church.  I get them on CD.  People put them on
> CD. For me, so I can hear them again.  It inspired me because it talked
> about God's mercy, which we do not deserve.  The Pastor reminded us not to
> hang on to another person's sin against you.  I am guilty of that.  I think
> that is why I am depressed so often.  I am ashamed that I dwell on the past
> and have so much anger with people who said things to me that I continue to
> hold on to.  I will commit to working on it by praying about it.  I would
> appreciate your prayers as well, please! 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com


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From everettg at successfuladaptations.com  Tue Nov 25 11:20:34 2008
From: everettg at successfuladaptations.com (Everett Gavel)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 06:20:34 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] FW: [BlindMen4Christ] Thanksgiving Thanks!
References: <F6DDED57C2FF49ECA4E0548C8D6AC26A@Buster>
	<E961E92BD3814721A80A5C11417C0064@Bonnie>
Message-ID: <000401c94eef$d63d6d70$64d69b63@IBMB7D6F383D44>

Thanks, Bonnie, for getting me to read this by your 
responding to it.  I don't read every message, and too 
often when there's not a headline to give an inkling of 
what's inside, I bypass things.  Anyway, I'm glad I 
read this one.  Thank you.  And thank You, Jesus, for 
not letting me miss it.


Strive On!
Everett


----- Original Message ----- 

> This is one I really appreciate, especially since 
> I've really been in a
> valley of my own the last year and a half, 
> especially.  Thanks for sharing
> this one, Wesley.
>
-----Original Message-----
From: blindmen4christ-bounces at morales-family.lljfm.net
[mailto:blindmen4christ-bounces at morales-family.lljfm.net] 
On Behalf Of Stu
(by way of Curtis Delzer <curtis at calweb.com>)
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 10:46 AM
To: Blind men for Christ
Subject: [BlindMen4Christ] Thanksgiving Thanks!

Thanksgiving Classic: Thankful For The Thorns

Sandra felt as low as the heels of her shoes when she 
pulled open the
florist shop door, against a November gust of wind. Her 
life had been as
sweet as a spring breeze and then, in the fourth month 
of her second
pregnancy, a "minor" automobile accident stole her joy. 
This was
Thanksgiving week and the time she should have 
delivered their infant son.
She grieved over their loss.

Troubles had multiplied. Her husband's company 
"threatened" to transfer his
job to a new location. Her sister had called to say 
that she could not come
on her long awaited holiday visit. What's worse, 
Sandra's friend suggested
that Sandra's grief was a God-given path to maturity 
that would allow her to
empathize with others who suffer.

"Had she lost a child?  She has no idea what I'm 
feeling," thought Sandra
with a shudder. "Thanksgiving? Thankful for what?" she 
wondered. "For a
careless driver whose truck was hardly scratched when 
he rear-ended her? For
an airbag that saved her life, but took her child's?"

"Good afternoon, can I help you?" Sandra was startled 
by the approach of the
shop clerk.

"I.... I need an arrangement," stammered Sandra.

"For Thanksgiving?"  Sandra nodded.  Do you want the 
beautiful but ordinary,
or would you like to challenge the day with a customer 
favorite I call the
'Thanksgiving Special'?  I'm convinced that flowers 
tell stories,"
she continued. "Are you looking for something that 
conveys 'gratitude' this
Thanksgiving?"


"Not exactly!" Sandra blurted out. "In the last five 
months, everything that
could go wrong has gone wrong." Sandra regretted her 
outburst, and was
surprised when the clerk said, "I have the perfect 
arrangement for you."

Then the bell on the door rang, and the clerk greeted 
the new customer, "Hi,
Barbara... let me get your order." She excused herself 
and walked back to a
small workroom, then quickly reappeared, carrying an 
arrangement of
greenery, bows, and what appeared to be long-stemmed 
thorny roses.
Except the ends
of the rose stems were neatly snipped: there were no 
flowers.

"Do you want these in a box?" asked the clerk.

Sandra watched for the customer's response. Was this a 
joke? Who would want
rose stems with no flowers! She waited for laughter, 
but neither woman
laughed.

"Yes, please," Barbara replied with an appreciative 
smile. "You'd think
after three years of getting the special, I wouldn't be 
so moved by its
significance, but I can feel it right here, all over 
again." She said, as
she gently tapped her chest.

Sandra stammered, "That lady just left with, uh.... she 
left with no
flowers!"

"That's right, said the clerk. "I cut off the flowers. 
That's the 'Special'.
I call it the Thanksgiving Thorns Bouquet."

"Oh, come on! You can't tell me someone is willing to 
pay for that!"
exclaimed Sandra.

"Barbara came into the shop three years ago, feeling 
much as you do, today,"
explained the clerk. "She thought she had very little 
to be thankful for.
She had just lost her father to cancer; the family 
business was failing; her
son had gotten into drugs; and she was facing major 
surgery."

"That same year I had lost my husband," continued the 
clerk. "For the first
time in my life, I had to spend the holidays alone. I 
had no children, no
husband, no family nearby, and too much debt to allow 
any travel."

"So what did you do?" asked Sandra.

"I learned to be thankful for thorns," answered the 
clerk quietly.

"I've always thanked God for the good things in my life 
and I NEVER
questioned Him why those GOOD things happened to me, 
but when the bad stuff
hit, I cried out, "WHY? WHY Me?!" It took time for me 
to learn that the dark
times are important to our faith! I have always enjoyed 
the 'flowers' of my
life, but it took the thorns to show me the beauty of 
God's comfort! You
know, the Bible says that God comforts us when we're 
afflicted, and from His
consolation we learn to comfort others."

Sandra sucked in her breath, as she thought about the 
thought that her
friend had tried to tell her. "I guess the truth is, I 
don't want comfort.
I've lost a baby and I'm angry with God."

Just then someone else walked in the shop. "Hey, Phil!" 
the clerk greeted
the balding, rotund man. "My wife sent me in to get our 
usual Thanksgiving
arrangement... twelve thorny, long-stemmed stems!" 
laughed Phil as the
clerk handed him a tissue wrapped arrangement from the 
refrigerator.

"Those are for your wife?" asked Sandra incredulously. 
"Do you mind telling
me why she wants a bouquet that looks like that?"

"No... I'm glad you asked," Phil replied. "Four years 
ago, my wife and I
nearly divorced. After forty years, we were in a real 
mess, but with the
Lord's grace and guidance, we trudged through problem 
after problem. The
Lord rescued our marriage. Jenny (the clerk) told me 
she kept a vase of rose
stems to remind her of what she had learned from 
"thorny" times. That was
good enough for me. I took home some of those stems. My 
wife and I decided
to label each one for a specific "problem" and give 
thanks for what that
problem taught us." As Phil paid the clerk, he said to 
Sandra, "I highly
recommend the Special!"

"I don't know if I can be thankful for the thorns in my 
life." Sandra said
to the clerk. "It's all too... fresh."

"Well," the clerk replied carefully, "my experience has 
shown me that the
thorns make the roses more precious. We treasure God's 
providential care
more during trouble than at any other time. Remember 
that it was a crown of
thorns that Jesus wore so we might know His love. Don't 
resent the thorns."

Tears rolled down Sandra's cheeks. For the first time 
since the accident,
she loosened her grip on her resentment. "I'll take 
those twelve
long-stemmed thorns, please," she managed to choke out.

"I hoped you would," said the clerk gently. "I'll have 
them ready in a
minute."

"Thank you. What do I owe you?"

"Nothing. Nothing but a promise to allow God to heal 
your heart. The first
year's arrangement is always on me." The clerk smiled 
and handed a card to
Sandra.

"I'll attach this card to your arrangement, but maybe 
you would like to read
it first."

It read:

My God, I have never thanked You for my thorns. I have 
thanked You a
thousand times for my roses, but never once for my 
thorns. Teach me the
glory of the cross I bear; teach me the value of my 
thorns. Show me that I
have climbed closer to You along the path of pain. Show 
me that, through my
tears, the colors of Your rainbow look much more 
brilliant."








From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Tue Nov 25 11:22:43 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 05:22:43 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] In Overcoming
Message-ID: <17DBBFB5ADF2443EBFBF6E9D6297444C@your4dacd0ea75>

The Bible says that you overcome by the Blood of the Lamb and the word of your testimony, so on the subject which Bonnie and Beth spoke of, I'd like to go a little farther.

In my life, especially when I was young and became an adult, I was an extreme grudge holder.  I had temporary friends mostly because of that.  I'm a witness that the worst thing that you think can happen to you in your life God makes the best thing.

When I first got saved, I realized this was a harmful thing for me, so I'd ask God that if this was the only way I'd forgive certain people against whom I held grudges, to help me forget who those people are, and God, in His mercy to a baby Christian, did that for me.  But eventually I had to learn how to forgive without that crutch.

When I lived in Minneapolis, I had a lot of experiences in HUD buildings where people of my race did things that were aggravating to put me under a persecution for associating with and attending churches of other races.  In one building I lived below two murders.  In many ways, that last experience traumatized me forever to where I have a medical condition for which I am treated and stay on medication.

When I left Minneapolis, all I could afford for rent turned out to be crack houses, so I left to start all over somewhere where I didn't know anybody, something which I don't recommend, but God was with me and still is.

In the late '70's and early '80's, I applied for--and after the seventh application was accepted--at Heritage School of Evangelism and Communications, which, some of you may know, was a college run by P.T.L.  After I was accepted, they gave me all kinds of reasons why I shouldn't be a student there and I wrote many letters to key people suddenly fired from staff as to what those reasons were without response.  Finally, even though Hazel Stalley and I worked together for quite some time, I decided it was better not to come to school there, reasoning that being accepted and not wanted would be worse for me than possibly being in an environment where I would be accepted and wanted.

I'll never forget the letter they wrote me:  "Dear Miss Vogt:  We are relieved and delighted that you have decided not to come to our school.  We have agonized in prayer over this as we don't know how you could play with other musicians and know how to stop and start with them."

That stayed with me a lot of years.  I kept my relationship with the Lord, but I was hurt and frustrated because it could have been a good thing.

We all know what happened to P.T.L., and in 1992, I visited Charlotte for the NFB national convention.  I realized I'd never have fit in at P.T.L., that this was definitely a nice city, but not the place for me.

I've heard people say, "When life hands you a lemon, make lemonade."  But what we really need in our lives is the trust in God enough to enable ourselves to believe that God can make lemonade out of a lemon and do a good job.

I hope what I had to write helps some one on this list at this time of being thankful.

 

"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul," American Humorist Mark Twain

"An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us," Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Immediate Past President, National Federation of the Blind

"A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their contentions are like the bars of a castle." Proverbs 18 19. KJV

"Faith is the ability to see God in the dark.," (unknown)

"No one can do it for us but us," Rev. Jesse Jackson, Operation Push, 1976.

"With proper training, development, and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or characteristic," the Late Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, Past President, National Federation of the Blind.

Julie Vogt or jcvogt at pressenter.com 





From sslucki at chariot.net.au  Tue Nov 25 11:36:13 2008
From: sslucki at chariot.net.au (Stefan Slucki)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 22:06:13 +1030
Subject: [Faith-talk] Stefan unsubscribing
Message-ID: <EA0DE014DB024B01B03B052043ECFF0D@stefan706c912c>

Dear brothers and sisters,

Due to pressure of work I am unsubscribing, at least for now, from the list.

Anyone wishing to keep in touch with me is welcome to do so at

sslucki at chariot.net.au

May our Lord richly Bless and Lead us all as we end another year of His 
Grace.

Your brother in Christ,
Stefan Slucki. 


From wesley.burden at verizon.net  Tue Nov 25 17:13:13 2008
From: wesley.burden at verizon.net (WESLEY BURDEN)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 12:13:13 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] (no subject)
Message-ID: <6E2B675BBB644320BD73B3902B3825F4@Buster>

 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindmen4christ-bounces at morales-family.lljfm.net
[mailto:blindmen4christ-bounces at morales-family.lljfm.net] On Behalf Of Stu
(by way of Curtis Delzer <curtis at calweb.com>)
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 12:00 PM
To: Blind men for Christ
Subject: [BlindMen4Christ] A Brighter Tomorrow


The Power of Imaging

    "Then he touched their eyes and said, "According to your faith will it
be done to you."

    Imaging--picturing in your  mind's eye--can help you achieve the seeming
impossible.

    One day when I was working  on our church building, I borrowed my boss's
heavy circular-saw bench. When returning it, it fell off the truck, right in
the middle of a major highway.  It had taken four of us to load the saw
bench onto the truck and here it was, lying in the middle of the road with
only two of us to re-load it!

    No problem ... all we  could see was getting it back on the truck. And,
with seemingly super-human strength, heaved it back onto the truck in a
flash. We fastened it securely,  and were on our way in no time at all. We
amazed ourselves with a strength we  didn't even know we had. This type of
thing is fairly common.

    Where did the extra  strength come from? I'd say that the picture in our
mind of getting the saw  bench back onto the truck as quickly as possible,
plus the urgency of the  situation, triggered an extra supply of adrenaline,
making it possible for us  to lift it.
Had we focused on the problem and our inability to lift it by  ourselves, we
never would have been able to achieve that task.

    Imaging can also help in  the healing of sicknesses.

    Dr. Norman Vincent Peal in  his book, Imaging, tells about Harry DeCamp
who was healed of cancer. He was  not a religious man, but was challenged to
believe in God when a friend sent  him a card which said, "With God all
things are possible."

    Harry chose to believe  that through faith and prayer, God could heal
him, and started to visualize in a dramatic way the healing process taking
place within his body.

"He began to imagine  armies of healing white blood cells in his body
cascading down from his  shoulders, sweeping through his veins, attacking
the malignant cells and  destroying them. A hundred times a day, two
hundred, three hundred, he went  through this imaging process. He worked at
it constantly, day and
night."2

Harry also kept on with  his chemotherapy and in six months he was healed.
What cured him? His faith,  the chemotherapy, or his powerful imaging?
Probably all three!

    For some unknown reason,  when the image we create in our mind is vivid
and clear, the desire to  achieve it, and the faith to believe it is
possible are strong enough, the  untapped powers of the mind come to our
rescue and help us achieve the very  thing we image and believe in.
Unfortunately, the same principle is effective  for those who wish to
perform dastardly acts of evil. Actually, all of us are  visualizing things
in our mind much of the time. Just think how temptation  works! We just need
to use this ability for good.

Suggested prayer:  "Dear God, help me to see what you want me to become and
do for your  glory, and picture these in my mind until, with your help, one
by one, they  are all achieved. Thank you for hearing and answering my
prayer. Gratefully,  in Jesus' name, amen."

Stu
<mailto:K5stu at sbcglobal.net>K5stu at sbcglobal.net
Reading your Bible today will help prepare you for A Brighter Tomorrow!
_______________________________________________
BlindMen4Christ mailing list
BlindMen4Christ at morales-family.lljfm.net
http://morales-family.lljfm.net/mailman/listinfo/blindmen4christ_morales-fam
ily.lljfm.net




From wesley.burden at verizon.net  Wed Nov 26 23:43:39 2008
From: wesley.burden at verizon.net (WESLEY BURDEN)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 18:43:39 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] FW: [BlindMen4Christ] A Brighter Tomorrow
Message-ID: <CCBB3978D19C4927B42ECE23DBD2277B@Buster>

 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindmen4christ-bounces at morales-family.lljfm.net
[mailto:blindmen4christ-bounces at morales-family.lljfm.net] On Behalf Of Stu
(by way of Curtis Delzer <curtis at calweb.com>)
Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 6:23 PM
To: Blind men for Christ
Subject: [BlindMen4Christ] A Brighter Tomorrow

ARM YOURSELVES

"Be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might." Ephesians 6:10

If anyone was aware of the constant attacks by the enemy, not only those
visible, but those invisible by Satan himself, it was Paul. He had been
through physical sufferings and persecutions as few men. Even more
distressing was the emotional and spiritual distress he encountered while
seeking to establish new believers in the faith amidst the persecutions and
hostility they experienced.

So he proclaims to all, "Be strong in the Lord, and in the power of His
might." Paul knew the enemy that bitterly opposed him, but also the forces
of evil within his own carnal nature. He realized that he had to stem the
tide of his own corrupt nature, control his impetuous passions, root out the
habits of his old nature and turn the things of time and sense to things
invisible and eternal. Like Paul, we must rely wholly upon God's strength
and go forth in the might of His power. With anything less we will fall prey
to our enemy. Paul challenges us to be so inspired with a holy confidence in
Christ that we may be as much assured of victory as if we saw all our
enemies fleeing before us or slain at our feet.

Every believer requires divine strength for both the work he has to perform
and the difficulties he will have to cope with. Secondly, we must realize we
have no strength in ourselves. Jesus said, "Without me you can do nothing"
(John 15:5). But this realization awakens us to the glorious truth that
there is a sufficiency for us in Christ. As Paul testified, "I can do all
things through Christ who strengthens me" (Philippians 4:13). We must not
have any confidence in the flesh; neither must we have any doubt respecting
the all-sufficiency of our God. "The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear
what man shall do unto me" (Hebrews 13:6).

All believers are in a conflict, a battle against a greater foe. 
Unless we are armed for combat, we will not be able to withstand the enemy.
And who is this enemy? Paul says, "For our struggle is not against flesh and
blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers
of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly
realms" (Ephesians 6:12).

Then he encourages every believer to "put on the full armor of God, so that
when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after
you have done everything, to stand" (Ephesians 6:13).
..."The belt of truth buckled around your waist"--The truth holds and
strengthens everything together in its proper place and for its intended
use.
..."The breastplate of righteousness"--This is vital for our defense and its
sufficiency to protect us. Righteousness will not only discover deceit but
also will repel its assaults and secure our victory.
..."Your feet fitted with readiness that comes from the gospel of peace"--It
brings peace to the conscience, a promptness for obedience, readiness for
suffering, a willingness to be a servant.
..."The shield of faith"--It repels the fiery darts of Satan in his attempt
to wound and destroy us.
..."The helmet of salvation"--Prepares us for the conflict, sustains us in
them, and brings us victorious through them.
..."The sword of the Spirit"--It is the Word of God that shall inflict and
subdue the enemy.
..."Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit"--Prayer
is the undergirding power that makes the armor effective against the enemy.
It is by prayer that we must obtain the armor provided to us, that we must
learn how to use it properly to bring God's blessing and power on our
endeavors through the might and power of God.


Stu
<mailto:K5stu at sbcglobal.net>K5stu at sbcglobal.net
Reading your Bible today will help prepare you for A Brighter Tomorrow!
_______________________________________________
BlindMen4Christ mailing list
BlindMen4Christ at morales-family.lljfm.net
http://morales-family.lljfm.net/mailman/listinfo/blindmen4christ_morales-fam
ily.lljfm.net




From caota at hawaii.rr.com  Thu Nov 27 01:50:05 2008
From: caota at hawaii.rr.com (Charlene Ota)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 15:50:05 -1000
Subject: [Faith-talk] FW: [BlindMen4Christ] A Brighter Tomorrow
In-Reply-To: <CCBB3978D19C4927B42ECE23DBD2277B@Buster>
References: <CCBB3978D19C4927B42ECE23DBD2277B@Buster>
Message-ID: <32BD293C72554A699B08C20A281CB0B5@Charlene>

Hi, everyone, just a suggestion, if people want to subscribe to Wesley's
list, they can, rather than forwarding the messages to this list every day.
Just a thought.

Thanks! 

Charlene 

-----Original Message-----
From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of WESLEY BURDEN
Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 1:44 PM
To: 'Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion'
Subject: [Faith-talk] FW: [BlindMen4Christ] A Brighter Tomorrow

 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindmen4christ-bounces at morales-family.lljfm.net
[mailto:blindmen4christ-bounces at morales-family.lljfm.net] On Behalf Of Stu
(by way of Curtis Delzer <curtis at calweb.com>)
Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 6:23 PM
To: Blind men for Christ
Subject: [BlindMen4Christ] A Brighter Tomorrow

ARM YOURSELVES

"Be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might." Ephesians 6:10

If anyone was aware of the constant attacks by the enemy, not only those
visible, but those invisible by Satan himself, it was Paul. He had been
through physical sufferings and persecutions as few men. Even more
distressing was the emotional and spiritual distress he encountered while
seeking to establish new believers in the faith amidst the persecutions and
hostility they experienced.

So he proclaims to all, "Be strong in the Lord, and in the power of His
might." Paul knew the enemy that bitterly opposed him, but also the forces
of evil within his own carnal nature. He realized that he had to stem the
tide of his own corrupt nature, control his impetuous passions, root out the
habits of his old nature and turn the things of time and sense to things
invisible and eternal. Like Paul, we must rely wholly upon God's strength
and go forth in the might of His power. With anything less we will fall prey
to our enemy. Paul challenges us to be so inspired with a holy confidence in
Christ that we may be as much assured of victory as if we saw all our
enemies fleeing before us or slain at our feet.

Every believer requires divine strength for both the work he has to perform
and the difficulties he will have to cope with. Secondly, we must realize we
have no strength in ourselves. Jesus said, "Without me you can do nothing"
(John 15:5). But this realization awakens us to the glorious truth that
there is a sufficiency for us in Christ. As Paul testified, "I can do all
things through Christ who strengthens me" (Philippians 4:13). We must not
have any confidence in the flesh; neither must we have any doubt respecting
the all-sufficiency of our God. "The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear
what man shall do unto me" (Hebrews 13:6).

All believers are in a conflict, a battle against a greater foe. 
Unless we are armed for combat, we will not be able to withstand the enemy.
And who is this enemy? Paul says, "For our struggle is not against flesh and
blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers
of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly
realms" (Ephesians 6:12).

Then he encourages every believer to "put on the full armor of God, so that
when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after
you have done everything, to stand" (Ephesians 6:13).
..."The belt of truth buckled around your waist"--The truth holds and
strengthens everything together in its proper place and for its intended
use.
..."The breastplate of righteousness"--This is vital for our defense and its
sufficiency to protect us. Righteousness will not only discover deceit but
also will repel its assaults and secure our victory.
..."Your feet fitted with readiness that comes from the gospel of peace"--It
brings peace to the conscience, a promptness for obedience, readiness for
suffering, a willingness to be a servant.
..."The shield of faith"--It repels the fiery darts of Satan in his attempt
to wound and destroy us.
..."The helmet of salvation"--Prepares us for the conflict, sustains us in
them, and brings us victorious through them.
..."The sword of the Spirit"--It is the Word of God that shall inflict and
subdue the enemy.
..."Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit"--Prayer
is the undergirding power that makes the armor effective against the enemy.
It is by prayer that we must obtain the armor provided to us, that we must
learn how to use it properly to bring God's blessing and power on our
endeavors through the might and power of God.


Stu
<mailto:K5stu at sbcglobal.net>K5stu at sbcglobal.net
Reading your Bible today will help prepare you for A Brighter Tomorrow!
_______________________________________________
BlindMen4Christ mailing list
BlindMen4Christ at morales-family.lljfm.net
http://morales-family.lljfm.net/mailman/listinfo/blindmen4christ_morales-fam
ily.lljfm.net


_______________________________________________
Faith-talk mailing list
Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
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To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Faith-talk:
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r.com




From eric at pmpmail.com  Thu Nov 27 09:12:31 2008
From: eric at pmpmail.com (Eric Calhoun)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 03:12:31 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Happy Thanksgiving
Message-ID: <20081127091417.A91265F04B@node62.smtp.com>

Hi Federationists!  Eric Calhoun, wanting to wish all of you a safe and
Happy Thanksgiving!  We have all advocated for and on behalf of the blind,
and the blindness movement.  Let us not forget: to lead, you must be able
to give advice, and take your own.  To help someone, you must be able to
help yourself.  And: Never forget to count your blessings!

>From my house to yours: Happy Thanksgiving!


Eric from Los Angeles:

Look!  It's Holiday Time!

Look at the calendar and put a little holiday in your heart!

From awheeler at neb.rr.com  Thu Nov 27 11:06:28 2008
From: awheeler at neb.rr.com (Alan Wheeler)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 05:06:28 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] FW: [BlindMen4Christ] A Brighter Tomorrow
References: <CCBB3978D19C4927B42ECE23DBD2277B@Buster>
	<32BD293C72554A699B08C20A281CB0B5@Charlene>
Message-ID: <B8CA25A3F6B14E3ABCAE124ABB1790D5@Alan>

No offense, but what is wrong with him sharing this with our list.  It's probably one message a day, and that isn't bad at all, and it can reach people not on the other list...which is for men only by the way.


+-+-+-

   We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, to those 
who are called according to his purpose.
 Romans 8:28
~~~

Alan D Wheeler
awheeler at neb.rr.com
IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
Skype: redwheel1
Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at www.theqonline.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Charlene Ota" <caota at hawaii.rr.com>
To: "'Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion'" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 7:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] FW: [BlindMen4Christ] A Brighter Tomorrow


> Hi, everyone, just a suggestion, if people want to subscribe to Wesley's
> list, they can, rather than forwarding the messages to this list every day.
> Just a thought.
> 
> Thanks! 
> 
> Charlene 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On Behalf Of WESLEY BURDEN
> Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 1:44 PM
> To: 'Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion'
> Subject: [Faith-talk] FW: [BlindMen4Christ] A Brighter Tomorrow
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindmen4christ-bounces at morales-family.lljfm.net
> [mailto:blindmen4christ-bounces at morales-family.lljfm.net] On Behalf Of Stu
> (by way of Curtis Delzer <curtis at calweb.com>)
> Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 6:23 PM
> To: Blind men for Christ
> Subject: [BlindMen4Christ] A Brighter Tomorrow
> 
> ARM YOURSELVES
> 
> "Be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might." Ephesians 6:10
> 
> If anyone was aware of the constant attacks by the enemy, not only those
> visible, but those invisible by Satan himself, it was Paul. He had been
> through physical sufferings and persecutions as few men. Even more
> distressing was the emotional and spiritual distress he encountered while
> seeking to establish new believers in the faith amidst the persecutions and
> hostility they experienced.
> 
> So he proclaims to all, "Be strong in the Lord, and in the power of His
> might." Paul knew the enemy that bitterly opposed him, but also the forces
> of evil within his own carnal nature. He realized that he had to stem the
> tide of his own corrupt nature, control his impetuous passions, root out the
> habits of his old nature and turn the things of time and sense to things
> invisible and eternal. Like Paul, we must rely wholly upon God's strength
> and go forth in the might of His power. With anything less we will fall prey
> to our enemy. Paul challenges us to be so inspired with a holy confidence in
> Christ that we may be as much assured of victory as if we saw all our
> enemies fleeing before us or slain at our feet.
> 
> Every believer requires divine strength for both the work he has to perform
> and the difficulties he will have to cope with. Secondly, we must realize we
> have no strength in ourselves. Jesus said, "Without me you can do nothing"
> (John 15:5). But this realization awakens us to the glorious truth that
> there is a sufficiency for us in Christ. As Paul testified, "I can do all
> things through Christ who strengthens me" (Philippians 4:13). We must not
> have any confidence in the flesh; neither must we have any doubt respecting
> the all-sufficiency of our God. "The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear
> what man shall do unto me" (Hebrews 13:6).
> 
> All believers are in a conflict, a battle against a greater foe. 
> Unless we are armed for combat, we will not be able to withstand the enemy.
> And who is this enemy? Paul says, "For our struggle is not against flesh and
> blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers
> of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly
> realms" (Ephesians 6:12).
> 
> Then he encourages every believer to "put on the full armor of God, so that
> when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after
> you have done everything, to stand" (Ephesians 6:13).
> ..."The belt of truth buckled around your waist"--The truth holds and
> strengthens everything together in its proper place and for its intended
> use.
> ..."The breastplate of righteousness"--This is vital for our defense and its
> sufficiency to protect us. Righteousness will not only discover deceit but
> also will repel its assaults and secure our victory.
> ..."Your feet fitted with readiness that comes from the gospel of peace"--It
> brings peace to the conscience, a promptness for obedience, readiness for
> suffering, a willingness to be a servant.
> ..."The shield of faith"--It repels the fiery darts of Satan in his attempt
> to wound and destroy us.
> ..."The helmet of salvation"--Prepares us for the conflict, sustains us in
> them, and brings us victorious through them.
> ..."The sword of the Spirit"--It is the Word of God that shall inflict and
> subdue the enemy.
> ..."Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit"--Prayer
> is the undergirding power that makes the armor effective against the enemy.
> It is by prayer that we must obtain the armor provided to us, that we must
> learn how to use it properly to bring God's blessing and power on our
> endeavors through the might and power of God.
> 
> 
> Stu
> <mailto:K5stu at sbcglobal.net>K5stu at sbcglobal.net
> Reading your Bible today will help prepare you for A Brighter Tomorrow!
> _______________________________________________
> BlindMen4Christ mailing list
> BlindMen4Christ at morales-family.lljfm.net
> http://morales-family.lljfm.net/mailman/listinfo/blindmen4christ_morales-fam
> ily.lljfm.net
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/caota%40hawaii.r
> r.com
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler%40neb.rr.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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From everettg at successfuladaptations.com  Thu Nov 27 12:32:59 2008
From: everettg at successfuladaptations.com (Everett Gavel)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 07:32:59 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] "Republican Party Needs to Leave God Behind"
Message-ID: <001a01c9508c$499ba370$f96aa463@IBMB7D6F383D44>

First, "Happy Thanksgiving!"  ;-)

I thought this might be of interest to some of you. 
There's stats below on the news coverage, or lack of 
it, in the recent election.  There's also an absolutely 
ignorant quote by one of the media's leaders.  What a 
putz.  Yet the sentiment is typical from unbelievers. 
They think God is merely a tool for poolitical 
posturing.

To that I share this bit of scripture:


Romans 1:19-22
"Since what may be known about God is plain to them, 
because God has made it plain to them.
For since the creation of the world God's invisible 
qualities--His eternal power and divine nature--has 
been clearly seen, being understood from what has been 
made, so that men are without excuse.
For although they knew God, they neither glorified him 
as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking 
became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools."


Talk about being blind, huh?  Anyway, the summary and 
link to the stats are below, for anyone interested.


Strive On--and God Bless Your Efforts,
Everett
www.everettgavel.com


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "CitizenLink" <citizenlink at family.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 6:05 PM
Subject: Nov. 26: Election News Coverage Ignored 
Religion


CITIZENLINK DAILY UPDATE
Nov. 26, 2008

----------------------------------------------
Subject line: Election News Coverage Ignored Religion
----------------------------------------------

----------------------------------------------
EDITOR'S NOTE
----------------------------------------------
The CitizenLink team will be spending Thursday and 
Friday with friends
and family, so your next Daily Update will arrive 
Monday, Dec. 1. Happy
Thanksgiving!

----------------------------------------------
TURN SIGNAL
----------------------------------------------
Dustup in California Highlights the Plight of Kids in 
Foster Care

http://capwiz.com/fof/utr/1/OVBSJMKYOO/NWAPJMKYRL/2669646891

----------------------------------------------
TOP STORY
----------------------------------------------
Election News Coverage Largely Ignored Religion
by Jennifer Mesko, editor

SUMMARY: 'The mainstream media are utterly clueless as 
to how to cover
religious issues.'

Just 4 percent of the general election news coverage 
focused on
religion. More than half of those stories dealt with 
Sen. Barack Obama,
while 8.5 percent featured Sen. John McCain.

Social issues - including abortion, same-sex "marriage" 
and
stem-cell research - accounted for less than 1 percent 
of campaign
news overall.

These are some of the findings of a new study conducted 
by the Pew
Research Center's Project for Excellence in Journalism 
and Pew Forum
on Religion & Public Life. The study examined 
religion-focused
election coverage in 48 news outlets between June 1 and 
Oct. 15.

"The study confirms what was obvious throughout the 
campaign: the
mainstream media are utterly clueless as to how to 
cover religious
issues," said Bruce Hausknecht, judicial analyst for 
Focus on the
Family Action. "They gravitate to the sensational, 
ignore or
misreport the ordinary, and show a propensity for 
belittling religious
belief in general. The media's disdain for religion was 
never more
apparent than in the coverage of Governor Palin, which 
ranged from the
ridiculous to the malicious."

Washington Post columnist Kathleen Parker recently 
concluded that, in
order to survive, the Republican Party needs to leave 
God behind.

http://capwiz.com/fof/utr/1/OVBSJMKYOO/JCVUJMKYRM/2669646891

"Shifting demographics suggest that the Republican 
Party - and
conservatism with it - eventually will die out unless 
religion is
returned to the privacy of one's heart where it 
belongs," she
writes.

Dr. James Dobson, founder and chairman of Focus on the 
Family, said
Christians will not be silenced - efforts of big media
notwithstanding.

http://capwiz.com/fof/utr/1/OVBSJMKYOO/MFWWJMKYRN/2669646891

(NOTE: Referral to Web sites not produced by Focus on 
the Family is for
informational purposes only and does not necessarily 
constitute an
endorsement of the sites' content.)

(JMM/1 hour/ AP)

----------------------------------------------
NEWS
----------------------------------------------
Florida Judge Rules against Gay Adoption Ban

A Florida judge Tuesday ruled that a state law banning 
homosexuals from
adopting children is unconstitutional.

Miami-Dade Circuit Judge Cindy Lederman said the 
31-year-old law
violates equal protection rights for the children and 
their prospective
gay parents.

John Stemberger, president and general counsel for the 
Florida Family
Policy Council, called the ruling "classic judicial
activism."

"Everywhere in the law where children are affected, the 
standard
must always be what is in the best interest of the 
child," he told
the Associated Press. "What is stunning to me is that 
when it
comes to dealing with gays, that standard goes out the 
window. Children
do better with a mother and a father."

The Florida Department of Children & Families plans to 
file an appeal.
---------------------------------------------
Obama Appoints Abortion Activists to His Team

President-elect Barack Obama hasn't wasted any time 
advancing his
radical pro-abortion agenda.

Over the weekend, Obama appointed Ellen Moran, 
executive director of
Emily's List, as his White House communications 
director. Emily's List
is a group that spends hundreds of millions of dollars 
funding
pro-abortion Democrat candidates.

Tony Perkins, president of the Family Research Council, 
said it comes
as no surprise to those who followed Obama's record 
that he is forming
such a strongly pro-abortion team:

"Ms. Moran's fealty to abortion is so strong that after 
the
Supreme Court upheld the ban on partial-birth abortion, 
she saw it as a
call to arms to raise more funds for her group to work 
towards
overturning the decision and cut off funding for 
politicians who voted
to ban the gruesome practice."

Obama also recently named Melody Barnes, who formerly 
served on the
boards of Emily's List and Planned Parenthood, as his 
director of
Domestic Policy Council.

"President-elect Obama was arguably the most 
pro-abortion member
of the U.S. Senate," said Ashley Horne, federal policy 
analyst for
Focus on the Family Action. "As such, his selection of 
staff who
share his pro-abortion views is disappointing but not 
surprising."

FOR MORE INFORMATION

The Susan B. Anthony List is a national Political 
Action Committee
dedicated to raising money for pro-life candidates and 
counterbalance
Emily's List.

http://capwiz.com/fof/utr/1/OVBSJMKYOO/ISFQJMKYRO/2669646891/

- Devon Williams

(NOTE: Referral to Web sites not produced by Focus on 
the Family is for
informational purposes only and does not necessarily 
constitute an
endorsement of the sites' content.)

----------------------------------------------
Good News: 'Merry Tossmas' Inspires Shoppers to Take a 
Stand for Christmas

After watching "Merry Tossmas 2008," a video commentary 
in
which Stuart Shepard asks retailers to acknowledge 
Christmas, a
California shopper was inspired to do her part.

http://capwiz.com/fof/utr/1/OVBSJMKYOO/EORWJMKYRP/2669646891

Theresa Stinchfield, of Sacramento, was shopping at her 
favorite
Raley's grocery store when she noticed a bin of 
"Holiday
Wreaths" for sale. Stinchfield respectfully shared her
disappointment with management and explained that she 
couldn't spend
money in stores that avoid use of the word "Christmas."

To Stinchfield's surprise, the store agreed to 
immediately change the signs.

"When I left out the same door with my $120 worth of 
Thanksgiving
groceries, the signs had indeed been changed," she 
said.
"They now read: 'Christmas Wreaths $12.99.'

"I can't change the world, but piping up made for a 
change in one
tiny corner of mine! Thank you for the inspiration to 
quit being a
whiny bench warmer!"

FOR MORE INFORMATION
Listen to Friday's broadcast about redeeming the 
Christmas season.
http://capwiz.com/fof/utr/1/OVBSJMKYOO/IOYFJMKYRQ/2669646891

Join the "I Stand for Christmas" campaign, and let your 
voice
be heard.
http://capwiz.com/fof/utr/1/OVBSJMKYOO/BXGCJMKYRR/2669646891

View our Christmas-Friendly Shopping Guide
http://capwiz.com/fof/utr/1/OVBSJMKYOO/JTTPJMKYRS/2669646891

- Devon Williams
----------------------------------------------
ALSO OF NOTE
----------------------------------------------
Facing the Holidays after Divorce

A first step is to be honest about your emotional pain 
and give
yourself permission to grieve.

http://capwiz.com/fof/utr/1/OVBSJMKYOO/KEXEJMKYRT/2669646891

----------------------------------------------
Family News in Focus

----------------------------------------------
QUOTEWORTHY
----------------------------------------------
"We can only be said to be alive in those moments when 
our hearts
are conscious of our treasures."

- Thornton Wilder, author

=======================================================

---




From everettg at successfuladaptations.com  Thu Nov 27 14:49:05 2008
From: everettg at successfuladaptations.com (Everett Gavel)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 09:49:05 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Christian Radio In Boston?
Message-ID: <000301c9509f$4c37fe90$f96aa463@IBMB7D6F383D44>

Helllo,

Can anyone please share any and all radio stations they 
are aware of that have Christian broadcasting, out of 
the Boston, Massachusetts region, please?  I'm 
interested more in sermons and stuff, but even stations 
that only play Christian music would be good, too.


Thanks, and, Happy Thanksgiving!  ;-)
Everett








From everettg at successfuladaptations.com  Thu Nov 27 15:29:32 2008
From: everettg at successfuladaptations.com (Everett Gavel)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 10:29:32 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Happy Thanksgiving, In Braille
Message-ID: <000e01c950a4$f36a0500$f96aa463@IBMB7D6F383D44>

Happy Thanksgiving!

Attached is a document that has some "visual braille" 
in it, sharing a message that anyone with sight can 
have fun with - learning braille while figuring it out. 
There's a braille alphabet chart included below the 
message, and also a reference to the National 
Federation of the Blind in case you ever come across 
anyone losing their sight.

I hope you all have blessed, abundantly joyful days 
today.  God bless your efforts--and your path.


All for His Glory!
Everett
www.everettgavel.com








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From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Fri Nov 28 01:46:28 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 19:46:28 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Christian Radio In Boston?
References: <000301c9509f$4c37fe90$f96aa463@IBMB7D6F383D44>
Message-ID: <65E4A0E5BF034CEAB73ADCBD8D692A42@your4dacd0ea75>

If you go to
www.blindradio.com
you might find something you need there.  I am more into Gospel stations and 
don't listen to anything in Boston, but it is a pretty good site.  Also at
www.vipconduit.com
there is a section on their site called
Items of Interest.  They have some media-related links, some even 
disability-oriented, but there's no action on any of the disability links.

Hope you and everybody else had a wonderful Thanksgiving.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Everett Gavel" <everettg at successfuladaptations.com>
To: <Undisclosed-Recipient:;>
Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 8:49 AM
Subject: [Faith-talk] Christian Radio In Boston?


> Helllo,
>
> Can anyone please share any and all radio stations they
> are aware of that have Christian broadcasting, out of
> the Boston, Massachusetts region, please?  I'm
> interested more in sermons and stuff, but even stations
> that only play Christian music would be good, too.
>
>
> Thanks, and, Happy Thanksgiving!  ;-)
> Everett
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.11/1816 - Release Date: 11/27/2008 
7:53 PM




From everettg at successfuladaptations.com  Fri Nov 28 11:57:11 2008
From: everettg at successfuladaptations.com (Everett Gavel)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 06:57:11 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Psalm 73, and Commentary on Psalm 73
Message-ID: <000301c95150$7371c840$d79cf44c@IBMB7D6F383D44>

Good Morning,

How many of us have felt like this?  Felt the 
supposedly unjust way sinners thrive, and believers 
seem to barely survive?  Psalm 73 was written by Asaph, 
King David's worship leader.  He had such doubts at 
times, too, as he shares in this Psalm below.  The text 
of Psalm 73 is below (NIV), with the commentary from 
Matthew Henry below that, explaining it a bit.

You Can Proclaim 'TGIF' Every Day--Just Let It Stand 
for, "Today, God Is First!"


All for His Glory!
Everett



Psalm 73
New International Version (NIV)

BOOK III : Psalms 73-89
A psalm of Asaph.

1 Surely God is good to Israel,
       to those who are pure in heart.
2 But as for me, my feet had almost slipped;
       I had nearly lost my foothold.

3 For I envied the arrogant
       when I saw the prosperity of the wicked.

4 They have no struggles;
       their bodies are healthy and strong. [a]

5 They are free from the burdens common to man;
       they are not plagued by human ills.

6 Therefore pride is their necklace;
       they clothe themselves with violence.

7 From their callous hearts comes iniquity [b] ;
       the evil conceits of their minds know no limits.

 8 They scoff, and speak with malice;
       in their arrogance they threaten oppression.

9 Their mouths lay claim to heaven,
       and their tongues take possession of the earth.

10 Therefore their people turn to them
       and drink up waters in abundance. [c]

11 They say, "How can God know?
       Does the Most High have knowledge?"

12 This is what the wicked are like-
       always carefree, they increase in wealth.

13 Surely in vain have I kept my heart pure;
       in vain have I washed my hands in innocence.

14 All day long I have been plagued;
       I have been punished every morning.

15 If I had said, "I will speak thus,"
       I would have betrayed your children.

16 When I tried to understand all this,
       it was oppressive to me

17 till I entered the sanctuary of God;
       then I understood their final destiny.

18 Surely you place them on slippery ground;
       you cast them down to ruin.

19 How suddenly are they destroyed,
       completely swept away by terrors!

20 As a dream when one awakes,
       so when you arise, O Lord,
       you will despise them as fantasies.

21 When my heart was grieved
       and my spirit embittered,

22 I was senseless and ignorant;
       I was a brute beast before you.

23 Yet I am always with you;
       you hold me by my right hand.

24 You guide me with your counsel,
       and afterward you will take me into glory.

25 Whom have I in heaven but you?
       And earth has nothing I desire besides you.

26 My flesh and my heart may fail,
       but God is the strength of my heart
       and my portion forever.

27 Those who are far from you will perish;
       you destroy all who are unfaithful to you.

28 But as for me, it is good to be near God.
       I have made the Sovereign LORD my refuge;
       I will tell of all your deeds.


Footnotes:
Psalm 73:4 With a different word division of the 
Hebrew; Masoretic Text struggles at their death; / 
their bodies are healthy
Psalm 73:7 Syriac (see also Septuagint Hebrew Their 
eyes bulge with fat
Psalm 73:10 The meaning of the Hebrew for this verse is 
uncertain.



Psalm 73, Bible Commentary, Matthew Henry
http://www.christnotes.org/commentary.php?com=mhc&b=19&c=73

Psalm 73
Matthew Henry's Commentary

Chapter Contents
The psalmist's temptation. (1-14)
How he gained a victory over it. (15-20)
How he profited by it. (21-28)


Commentary on Psalm 73:1-14

The psalmist was strongly tempted to envy the 
prosperity of the wicked; a common temptation, which 
has tried the graces of many saints. But he lays down 
the great principle by which he resolved to abide. It 
is the goodness of God. This is a truth which cannot be 
shaken. Good thoughts of God will fortify against 
Satan's temptations. The faith even of strong believers 
may be sorely shaken, and ready to fail. There are 
storms that will try the firmest anchors. Foolish and 
wicked people have sometimes a great share of outward 
prosperity. They seem to have the least share of the 
troubles of this life; and they seem to have the 
greatest share of its comforts. They live without the 
fear of God, yet they prosper, and get on in the world. 
Wicked men often spend their lives without much 
sickness, and end them without great pain; while many 
godly persons scarcely know what health is, and die 
with great sufferings. Often the wicked are not 
frightened, either by the remembrance of their sins, or 
the prospect of their misery, but they die without 
terror. We cannot judge men's state beyond death, by 
what passes at their death. He looked abroad, and saw 
many of God's people greatly at a loss. Because the 
wicked are so very daring, therefore his people return 
hither; they know not what to say to it, and the 
rather, because they drink deep of the bitter cup of 
affliction. He spoke feelingly when he spoke of his own 
troubles; there is no disputing against sense, except 
by faith. From all this arose a strong temptation to 
cast off religion. But let us learn that the true 
course of sanctification consists in cleansing a man 
from all pollution both of soul and body. The heart is 
cleansed by the blood of Christ laid hold upon by 
faith; and by the begun works of the Lord's Spirit, 
manifested in the hearty resolution, purpose, and study 
of holiness, and a blameless course of life and 
actions, the hands are cleansed. It is not in vain to 
serve God and keep his ordinances.


Commentary on Psalm 73:15-20

The psalmist having shown the progress of his 
temptation, shows how faith and grace prevailed. He 
kept up respect for God's people, and with that he 
restrained himself from speaking what he had thought 
amiss. It is a sign that we repent of the evil thoughts 
of the heart, if we suppress them. Nothing gives more 
offence to God's children, than to say it is vain to 
serve God; for there is nothing more contrary to their 
universal experience. He prayed to God to make this 
matter plain to him; and he understood the wretched end 
of wicked people; even in the height of their 
prosperity they were but ripening for ruin. The 
sanctuary must be the resort of a tempted soul. The 
righteous man's afflictions end in peace, therefore he 
is happy; the wicked man's enjoyments end in 
destruction, therefore he is miserable. The prosperity 
of the wicked is short and uncertain, slippery places. 
See what their prosperity is; it is but a vain show, it 
is only a corrupt imagination, not substance, but a 
mere shadow; it is as a dream, which may please us a 
little while we are slumbering, yet even then it 
disturbs our repose.


Commentary on Psalm 73:21-28

God would not suffer his people to be tempted, if his 
grace were not sufficient, not only to save them from 
harm, but to make them gainers by it. This temptation, 
the working of envy and discontent, is very painful. In 
reflecting upon it, the psalmist owns it was his folly 
and ignorance thus to vex himself. If good men, at any 
time, through the surprise and strength of temptation, 
think, or speak, or act amiss, they will reflect upon 
it with sorrow and shame. We must ascribe our safety in 
temptation, and our victory, not to our own wisdom, but 
to the gracious presence of God with us, and Christ's 
intercession for us. All who commit themselves to God, 
shall be guided with the counsel both of his word and 
of his Spirit, the best counsellors here, and shall be 
received to his glory in another world; the believing 
hopes and prospects of which will reconcile us to all 
dark providences. And the psalmist was hereby quickened 
to cleave the closer to God. Heaven itself could not 
make us happy without the presence and love of our God. 
The world and all its glory vanishes. The body will 
fail by sickness, age, and death; when the flesh fails, 
the conduct, courage, and comfort fail. But Christ 
Jesus, our Lord, offers to be all in all to every poor 
sinner, who renounces all other portions and 
confidences. By sin we are all far from God. And a 
profession Christ, if we go on in sin, will increase 
our condemnation. May we draw near, and keep near, to 
our God, by faith and prayer, and find it good to do 
so. Those that with an upright heart put their trust in 
God, shall never want matter for thanksgiving to him. 
Blessed Lord, who hast so graciously promised to become 
our portion in the next world, prevent us from choosing 
any other in this.








From mentink at frontiernet.net  Fri Nov 28 21:36:50 2008
From: mentink at frontiernet.net (Linda Mentink)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 15:36:50 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] a sermon that inspired me!
In-Reply-To: <001101c94e9e$dc9102a0$c9926f44@windows6996273>
References: <001101c94e9e$dc9102a0$c9926f44@windows6996273>
Message-ID: <20081128213647.CE0CFCCD46@relay04.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>

Hi Beth,

I'm just seeing this, and will pray for you.

My computer has been down since Sunday afternoon.

Blessings,

Linda
At 07:40 PM 11/24/2008, you wrote:
>I heard a sermon one time in church.  I get them on CD.  People put them on
>CD. For me, so I can hear them again.  It inspired me because it talked
>about God's mercy, which we do not deserve.  The Pastor reminded us not to
>hang on to another person's sin against you.  I am guilty of that.  I think
>that is why I am depressed so often.  I am ashamed that I dwell on the past
>and have so much anger with people who said things to me that I continue to
>hold on to.  I will commit to working on it by praying about it.  I would
>appreciate your prayers as well, please!
>
>Thanks,
>
>Beth
>
>_______________________________________________
>Faith-talk mailing list
>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>for Faith-talk:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net





From bethkats at cox.net  Fri Nov 28 22:34:13 2008
From: bethkats at cox.net (Beth Kats)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 14:34:13 -0800
Subject: [Faith-talk] a sermon that inspired me!
In-Reply-To: <20081128213647.CE0CFCCD46@relay04.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
References: <001101c94e9e$dc9102a0$c9926f44@windows6996273>
	<20081128213647.CE0CFCCD46@relay04.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
Message-ID: <001501c951a9$70947470$d1976f44@windows6996273>

Dear Faith-talk members,
Thank you to the ones who responded to my posting!  Thanks for being willing
to pray for me!
Beth

-----Original Message-----
From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Linda Mentink
Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 1:37 PM
To: Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] a sermon that inspired me!

Hi Beth,

I'm just seeing this, and will pray for you.

My computer has been down since Sunday afternoon.

Blessings,

Linda
At 07:40 PM 11/24/2008, you wrote:
>I heard a sermon one time in church.  I get them on CD.  People put them on
>CD. For me, so I can hear them again.  It inspired me because it talked
>about God's mercy, which we do not deserve.  The Pastor reminded us not to
>hang on to another person's sin against you.  I am guilty of that.  I think
>that is why I am depressed so often.  I am ashamed that I dwell on the past
>and have so much anger with people who said things to me that I continue to
>hold on to.  I will commit to working on it by praying about it.  I would
>appreciate your prayers as well, please!
>
>Thanks,
>
>Beth
>
>_______________________________________________
>Faith-talk mailing list
>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>for Faith-talk:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40front
iernet.net



_______________________________________________
Faith-talk mailing list
Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Faith-talk:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/bethkats%40cox.n
et

__________ NOD32 3650 (20081128) Information __________

This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
http://www.eset.com





From mentink at frontiernet.net  Fri Nov 28 23:03:44 2008
From: mentink at frontiernet.net (Linda Mentink)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 17:03:44 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] FW: [BlindMen4Christ] A Brighter Tomorrow
In-Reply-To: <32BD293C72554A699B08C20A281CB0B5@Charlene>
References: <CCBB3978D19C4927B42ECE23DBD2277B@Buster>
	<32BD293C72554A699B08C20A281CB0B5@Charlene>
Message-ID: <20081128230341.179261A03B8@relay03.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>

Thanks, Charlene.  I've suggested that, too.  Maybe you will have a 
better result.

I have also asked that all headers be removed and the subject line 
changed when sending forwards.  This can be easily done, and would 
make reading with a screen reader more efficient and 
pleasurable.  Subject lines should reflect what the message is.  For 
the most part, this list should be discussion, not forwards.

Blessings,

Linda

At 07:50 PM 11/26/2008, you wrote:
>Hi, everyone, just a suggestion, if people want to subscribe to Wesley's
>list, they can, rather than forwarding the messages to this list every day.
>Just a thought.
>
>Thanks!
>
>Charlene
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>On Behalf Of WESLEY BURDEN
>Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 1:44 PM
>To: 'Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion'
>Subject: [Faith-talk] FW: [BlindMen4Christ] A Brighter Tomorrow
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: blindmen4christ-bounces at morales-family.lljfm.net
>[mailto:blindmen4christ-bounces at morales-family.lljfm.net] On Behalf Of Stu
>(by way of Curtis Delzer <curtis at calweb.com>)
>Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 6:23 PM
>To: Blind men for Christ
>Subject: [BlindMen4Christ] A Brighter Tomorrow
>
>ARM YOURSELVES
>
>"Be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might." Ephesians 6:10
>
>If anyone was aware of the constant attacks by the enemy, not only those
>visible, but those invisible by Satan himself, it was Paul. He had been
>through physical sufferings and persecutions as few men. Even more
>distressing was the emotional and spiritual distress he encountered while
>seeking to establish new believers in the faith amidst the persecutions and
>hostility they experienced.
>
>So he proclaims to all, "Be strong in the Lord, and in the power of His
>might." Paul knew the enemy that bitterly opposed him, but also the forces
>of evil within his own carnal nature. He realized that he had to stem the
>tide of his own corrupt nature, control his impetuous passions, root out the
>habits of his old nature and turn the things of time and sense to things
>invisible and eternal. Like Paul, we must rely wholly upon God's strength
>and go forth in the might of His power. With anything less we will fall prey
>to our enemy. Paul challenges us to be so inspired with a holy confidence in
>Christ that we may be as much assured of victory as if we saw all our
>enemies fleeing before us or slain at our feet.
>
>Every believer requires divine strength for both the work he has to perform
>and the difficulties he will have to cope with. Secondly, we must realize we
>have no strength in ourselves. Jesus said, "Without me you can do nothing"
>(John 15:5). But this realization awakens us to the glorious truth that
>there is a sufficiency for us in Christ. As Paul testified, "I can do all
>things through Christ who strengthens me" (Philippians 4:13). We must not
>have any confidence in the flesh; neither must we have any doubt respecting
>the all-sufficiency of our God. "The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear
>what man shall do unto me" (Hebrews 13:6).
>
>All believers are in a conflict, a battle against a greater foe.
>Unless we are armed for combat, we will not be able to withstand the enemy.
>And who is this enemy? Paul says, "For our struggle is not against flesh and
>blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers
>of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly
>realms" (Ephesians 6:12).
>
>Then he encourages every believer to "put on the full armor of God, so that
>when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after
>you have done everything, to stand" (Ephesians 6:13).
>..."The belt of truth buckled around your waist"--The truth holds and
>strengthens everything together in its proper place and for its intended
>use.
>..."The breastplate of righteousness"--This is vital for our defense and its
>sufficiency to protect us. Righteousness will not only discover deceit but
>also will repel its assaults and secure our victory.
>..."Your feet fitted with readiness that comes from the gospel of peace"--It
>brings peace to the conscience, a promptness for obedience, readiness for
>suffering, a willingness to be a servant.
>..."The shield of faith"--It repels the fiery darts of Satan in his attempt
>to wound and destroy us.
>..."The helmet of salvation"--Prepares us for the conflict, sustains us in
>them, and brings us victorious through them.
>..."The sword of the Spirit"--It is the Word of God that shall inflict and
>subdue the enemy.
>..."Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit"--Prayer
>is the undergirding power that makes the armor effective against the enemy.
>It is by prayer that we must obtain the armor provided to us, that we must
>learn how to use it properly to bring God's blessing and power on our
>endeavors through the might and power of God.
>
>
>Stu
><mailto:K5stu at sbcglobal.net>K5stu at sbcglobal.net
>Reading your Bible today will help prepare you for A Brighter Tomorrow!
>_______________________________________________
>BlindMen4Christ mailing list
>BlindMen4Christ at morales-family.lljfm.net
>http://morales-family.lljfm.net/mailman/listinfo/blindmen4christ_morales-fam
>ily.lljfm.net
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Faith-talk mailing list
>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>Faith-talk:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/caota%40hawaii.r
>r.com
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Faith-talk mailing list
>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>for Faith-talk:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net





From wesley.burden at verizon.net  Fri Nov 28 23:04:23 2008
From: wesley.burden at verizon.net (WESLEY BURDEN)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 18:04:23 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] a sermon that inspired me!
In-Reply-To: <001501c951a9$70947470$d1976f44@windows6996273>
References: <001101c94e9e$dc9102a0$c9926f44@windows6996273>
	<20081128213647.CE0CFCCD46@relay04.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
	<001501c951a9$70947470$d1976f44@windows6996273>
Message-ID: <6FBCEE98326F4F0F98E778D0A634AB47@Buster>

Not a problem beth.  When prayers go up the blessing comes down.  At least
when we talk to the lord we don't get a busy signal.  The lord has some
phone system up there to hear all the prayer requests that are lifted up.

 

-----Original Message-----
From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Beth Kats
Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 5:34 PM
To: 'Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion'
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] a sermon that inspired me!

Dear Faith-talk members,
Thank you to the ones who responded to my posting!  Thanks for being willing
to pray for me!
Beth

-----Original Message-----
From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Linda Mentink
Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 1:37 PM
To: Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] a sermon that inspired me!

Hi Beth,

I'm just seeing this, and will pray for you.

My computer has been down since Sunday afternoon.

Blessings,

Linda
At 07:40 PM 11/24/2008, you wrote:
>I heard a sermon one time in church.  I get them on CD.  People put 
>them on CD. For me, so I can hear them again.  It inspired me because 
>it talked about God's mercy, which we do not deserve.  The Pastor 
>reminded us not to hang on to another person's sin against you.  I am 
>guilty of that.  I think that is why I am depressed so often.  I am 
>ashamed that I dwell on the past and have so much anger with people who 
>said things to me that I continue to hold on to.  I will commit to 
>working on it by praying about it.  I would appreciate your prayers as
well, please!
>
>Thanks,
>
>Beth
>
>_______________________________________________
>Faith-talk mailing list
>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>Faith-talk:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40f
>ront
iernet.net



_______________________________________________
Faith-talk mailing list
Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Faith-talk:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/bethkats%40cox.n
et

__________ NOD32 3650 (20081128) Information __________

This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
http://www.eset.com



_______________________________________________
Faith-talk mailing list
Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Faith-talk:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/wesley.burden%40
verizon.net




From wesley.burden at verizon.net  Sat Nov 29 00:53:05 2008
From: wesley.burden at verizon.net (WESLEY BURDEN)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 19:53:05 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] FW: [BlindMen4Christ] A Brighter Tomorrow
In-Reply-To: <20081128230341.179261A03B8@relay03.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
References: <CCBB3978D19C4927B42ECE23DBD2277B@Buster>
	<32BD293C72554A699B08C20A281CB0B5@Charlene>
	<20081128230341.179261A03B8@relay03.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
Message-ID: <8F1C6E5149BE42EBA2657F7BE9B57E31@Buster>

What I will do for now on linda is just send you the articles and
devotionals rather then putting them on the faith talk list would that work
better.

 

-----Original Message-----
From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Linda Mentink
Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 6:04 PM
To: Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] FW: [BlindMen4Christ] A Brighter Tomorrow

Thanks, Charlene.  I've suggested that, too.  Maybe you will have a better
result.

I have also asked that all headers be removed and the subject line changed
when sending forwards.  This can be easily done, and would make reading with
a screen reader more efficient and pleasurable.  Subject lines should
reflect what the message is.  For the most part, this list should be
discussion, not forwards.

Blessings,

Linda

At 07:50 PM 11/26/2008, you wrote:
>Hi, everyone, just a suggestion, if people want to subscribe to 
>Wesley's list, they can, rather than forwarding the messages to this list
every day.
>Just a thought.
>
>Thanks!
>
>Charlene
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org 
>[mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>On Behalf Of WESLEY BURDEN
>Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 1:44 PM
>To: 'Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion'
>Subject: [Faith-talk] FW: [BlindMen4Christ] A Brighter Tomorrow
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: blindmen4christ-bounces at morales-family.lljfm.net
>[mailto:blindmen4christ-bounces at morales-family.lljfm.net] On Behalf Of 
>Stu (by way of Curtis Delzer <curtis at calweb.com>)
>Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 6:23 PM
>To: Blind men for Christ
>Subject: [BlindMen4Christ] A Brighter Tomorrow
>
>ARM YOURSELVES
>
>"Be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might." Ephesians 6:10
>
>If anyone was aware of the constant attacks by the enemy, not only 
>those visible, but those invisible by Satan himself, it was Paul. He 
>had been through physical sufferings and persecutions as few men. Even 
>more distressing was the emotional and spiritual distress he 
>encountered while seeking to establish new believers in the faith 
>amidst the persecutions and hostility they experienced.
>
>So he proclaims to all, "Be strong in the Lord, and in the power of His 
>might." Paul knew the enemy that bitterly opposed him, but also the 
>forces of evil within his own carnal nature. He realized that he had to 
>stem the tide of his own corrupt nature, control his impetuous 
>passions, root out the habits of his old nature and turn the things of 
>time and sense to things invisible and eternal. Like Paul, we must rely 
>wholly upon God's strength and go forth in the might of His power. With 
>anything less we will fall prey to our enemy. Paul challenges us to be 
>so inspired with a holy confidence in Christ that we may be as much 
>assured of victory as if we saw all our enemies fleeing before us or slain
at our feet.
>
>Every believer requires divine strength for both the work he has to 
>perform and the difficulties he will have to cope with. Secondly, we 
>must realize we have no strength in ourselves. Jesus said, "Without me you
can do nothing"
>(John 15:5). But this realization awakens us to the glorious truth that 
>there is a sufficiency for us in Christ. As Paul testified, "I can do 
>all things through Christ who strengthens me" (Philippians 4:13). We 
>must not have any confidence in the flesh; neither must we have any 
>doubt respecting the all-sufficiency of our God. "The Lord is my 
>helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me" (Hebrews 13:6).
>
>All believers are in a conflict, a battle against a greater foe.
>Unless we are armed for combat, we will not be able to withstand the enemy.
>And who is this enemy? Paul says, "For our struggle is not against 
>flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, 
>against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces 
>of evil in the heavenly realms" (Ephesians 6:12).
>
>Then he encourages every believer to "put on the full armor of God, so 
>that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, 
>and after you have done everything, to stand" (Ephesians 6:13).
>..."The belt of truth buckled around your waist"--The truth holds and 
>strengthens everything together in its proper place and for its 
>intended use.
>..."The breastplate of righteousness"--This is vital for our defense 
>and its sufficiency to protect us. Righteousness will not only discover 
>deceit but also will repel its assaults and secure our victory.
>..."Your feet fitted with readiness that comes from the gospel of 
>peace"--It brings peace to the conscience, a promptness for obedience, 
>readiness for suffering, a willingness to be a servant.
>..."The shield of faith"--It repels the fiery darts of Satan in his 
>attempt to wound and destroy us.
>..."The helmet of salvation"--Prepares us for the conflict, sustains us 
>in them, and brings us victorious through them.
>..."The sword of the Spirit"--It is the Word of God that shall inflict 
>and subdue the enemy.
>..."Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the 
>Spirit"--Prayer is the undergirding power that makes the armor effective
against the enemy.
>It is by prayer that we must obtain the armor provided to us, that we 
>must learn how to use it properly to bring God's blessing and power on 
>our endeavors through the might and power of God.
>
>
>Stu
><mailto:K5stu at sbcglobal.net>K5stu at sbcglobal.net
>Reading your Bible today will help prepare you for A Brighter Tomorrow!
>_______________________________________________
>BlindMen4Christ mailing list
>BlindMen4Christ at morales-family.lljfm.net
>http://morales-family.lljfm.net/mailman/listinfo/blindmen4christ_morale
>s-fam
>ily.lljfm.net
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Faith-talk mailing list
>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>Faith-talk:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/caota%40haw
>aii.r
>r.com
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Faith-talk mailing list
>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>Faith-talk:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40f
>rontiernet.net



_______________________________________________
Faith-talk mailing list
Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Faith-talk:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/wesley.burden%40
verizon.net




From mentink at frontiernet.net  Sat Nov 29 01:40:01 2008
From: mentink at frontiernet.net (Linda Mentink)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 19:40:01 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] FW: [BlindMen4Christ] A Brighter Tomorrow
In-Reply-To: <8F1C6E5149BE42EBA2657F7BE9B57E31@Buster>
References: <CCBB3978D19C4927B42ECE23DBD2277B@Buster>
	<32BD293C72554A699B08C20A281CB0B5@Charlene>
	<20081128230341.179261A03B8@relay03.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>
	<8F1C6E5149BE42EBA2657F7BE9B57E31@Buster>
Message-ID: <20081129013958.9D0D81983A2@relay02.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>

No; then I have to clean them up.  Send them if they really speak to 
you, or send one a day; but take off the top stuff.  To do that, 
arrow down to the beginning of the message, hold down control plus 
shift with your left hand, press the home key (the middle one in the 
top row of the six pack), release control and shift, then press 
enter.  Shift tab back to the subject line, erase it because it only 
gives the name of the list you got it on, type in your own subject, 
then send the message.  HTH.

Blessings,

Linda

At 06:53 PM 11/28/2008, you wrote:
>What I will do for now on linda is just send you the articles and
>devotionals rather then putting them on the faith talk list would that work
>better.
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>On Behalf Of Linda Mentink
>Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 6:04 PM
>To: Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion
>Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] FW: [BlindMen4Christ] A Brighter Tomorrow
>
>Thanks, Charlene.  I've suggested that, too.  Maybe you will have a better
>result.
>
>I have also asked that all headers be removed and the subject line changed
>when sending forwards.  This can be easily done, and would make reading with
>a screen reader more efficient and pleasurable.  Subject lines should
>reflect what the message is.  For the most part, this list should be
>discussion, not forwards.
>
>Blessings,
>
>Linda
>
>At 07:50 PM 11/26/2008, you wrote:
> >Hi, everyone, just a suggestion, if people want to subscribe to
> >Wesley's list, they can, rather than forwarding the messages to this list
>every day.
> >Just a thought.
> >
> >Thanks!
> >
> >Charlene
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
> >[mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> >On Behalf Of WESLEY BURDEN
> >Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 1:44 PM
> >To: 'Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion'
> >Subject: [Faith-talk] FW: [BlindMen4Christ] A Brighter Tomorrow
> >
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: blindmen4christ-bounces at morales-family.lljfm.net
> >[mailto:blindmen4christ-bounces at morales-family.lljfm.net] On Behalf Of
> >Stu (by way of Curtis Delzer <curtis at calweb.com>)
> >Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 6:23 PM
> >To: Blind men for Christ
> >Subject: [BlindMen4Christ] A Brighter Tomorrow
> >
> >ARM YOURSELVES
> >
> >"Be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might." Ephesians 6:10
> >
> >If anyone was aware of the constant attacks by the enemy, not only
> >those visible, but those invisible by Satan himself, it was Paul. He
> >had been through physical sufferings and persecutions as few men. Even
> >more distressing was the emotional and spiritual distress he
> >encountered while seeking to establish new believers in the faith
> >amidst the persecutions and hostility they experienced.
> >
> >So he proclaims to all, "Be strong in the Lord, and in the power of His
> >might." Paul knew the enemy that bitterly opposed him, but also the
> >forces of evil within his own carnal nature. He realized that he had to
> >stem the tide of his own corrupt nature, control his impetuous
> >passions, root out the habits of his old nature and turn the things of
> >time and sense to things invisible and eternal. Like Paul, we must rely
> >wholly upon God's strength and go forth in the might of His power. With
> >anything less we will fall prey to our enemy. Paul challenges us to be
> >so inspired with a holy confidence in Christ that we may be as much
> >assured of victory as if we saw all our enemies fleeing before us or slain
>at our feet.
> >
> >Every believer requires divine strength for both the work he has to
> >perform and the difficulties he will have to cope with. Secondly, we
> >must realize we have no strength in ourselves. Jesus said, "Without me you
>can do nothing"
> >(John 15:5). But this realization awakens us to the glorious truth that
> >there is a sufficiency for us in Christ. As Paul testified, "I can do
> >all things through Christ who strengthens me" (Philippians 4:13). We
> >must not have any confidence in the flesh; neither must we have any
> >doubt respecting the all-sufficiency of our God. "The Lord is my
> >helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me" (Hebrews 13:6).
> >
> >All believers are in a conflict, a battle against a greater foe.
> >Unless we are armed for combat, we will not be able to withstand the enemy.
> >And who is this enemy? Paul says, "For our struggle is not against
> >flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities,
> >against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces
> >of evil in the heavenly realms" (Ephesians 6:12).
> >
> >Then he encourages every believer to "put on the full armor of God, so
> >that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground,
> >and after you have done everything, to stand" (Ephesians 6:13).
> >..."The belt of truth buckled around your waist"--The truth holds and
> >strengthens everything together in its proper place and for its
> >intended use.
> >..."The breastplate of righteousness"--This is vital for our defense
> >and its sufficiency to protect us. Righteousness will not only discover
> >deceit but also will repel its assaults and secure our victory.
> >..."Your feet fitted with readiness that comes from the gospel of
> >peace"--It brings peace to the conscience, a promptness for obedience,
> >readiness for suffering, a willingness to be a servant.
> >..."The shield of faith"--It repels the fiery darts of Satan in his
> >attempt to wound and destroy us.
> >..."The helmet of salvation"--Prepares us for the conflict, sustains us
> >in them, and brings us victorious through them.
> >..."The sword of the Spirit"--It is the Word of God that shall inflict
> >and subdue the enemy.
> >..."Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the
> >Spirit"--Prayer is the undergirding power that makes the armor effective
>against the enemy.
> >It is by prayer that we must obtain the armor provided to us, that we
> >must learn how to use it properly to bring God's blessing and power on
> >our endeavors through the might and power of God.
> >
> >
> >Stu
> ><mailto:K5stu at sbcglobal.net>K5stu at sbcglobal.net
> >Reading your Bible today will help prepare you for A Brighter Tomorrow!
> >_______________________________________________
> >BlindMen4Christ mailing list
> >BlindMen4Christ at morales-family.lljfm.net
> >http://morales-family.lljfm.net/mailman/listinfo/blindmen4christ_morale
> >s-fam
> >ily.lljfm.net
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Faith-talk mailing list
> >Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >Faith-talk:
> >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/caota%40haw
> >aii.r
> >r.com
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Faith-talk mailing list
> >Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >Faith-talk:
> >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40f
> >rontiernet.net
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Faith-talk mailing list
>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>Faith-talk:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/wesley.burden%40
>verizon.net
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Faith-talk mailing list
>Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>for Faith-talk:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net





From mentink at frontiernet.net  Sat Nov 29 03:15:27 2008
From: mentink at frontiernet.net (Linda Mentink)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 21:15:27 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] From Grant Metcalf
Message-ID: <20081129031524.4F944ACB2D@relay01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>

Penny Golden sent this to another list.  She's no longer on this one, 
so I thought I'd pass it along.--Linda



Grant Metcalf maintains an online library for the blind. it's easy to join the
library; nothing is sent through the mail, as far as I know. it's all 
there for you to look at and read or download; you must be a member 
to use all the features. but to join, you only have to be blind--as 
far as I know.
You might want to check out his web-site.

 > From "Grant E. Metcalf" 
<<mailto:thegems%40dslextreme.com>thegems at dslextreme.com>

 >It has been over six months since the last update. If you haven't kept
 >up with the What's New page, here goes.
 >The Annotated Bible Commentary by Arno C. Gaebelein has been finished.
 >Why You Should Believe In the Trinity by Robert Bowman. This book was
 >written to counter the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses, sometimes
 >referred to as "modalism" or "Sabelllianism". Posted on the Christian
 >Book Share page.
 >A Seminary class outline on the Trinity has been posted both with and
 >without texts of Scripture references included--Public Domain Section.
 >Henry Theisen's Introduction to the New Testament has been posted.
 >Two books by Alva J. Mcclain: "Romans" as well as "Law and Grace" are
 >now available. This latter book, Law and Grace, is a must read--a
 >classic on the subject, yet brief--Christian Book Share
 >Is The Bible Sufficient For Counseling? by Andy Bustanoby has been
 >posted on his personal page. This book, written by a retired pastor and
 >Christian Family Counselor, asked if it could be offered publicly on our
 >website.
 >The study booklet Worship by David Jeremiah has been posted.
 >A link to the Bible Study Manuals website has been added to the Links
 >page. This site can provide you with lots of information and/or
 >interesting materials. There is also a link to some Thomas Ice articles.
 >
 >Five books by John Frederick Strombeck have been posted which are also
 >must reads. There are some links to .PDF posting on other sites, but
 >now, thanks to BABINC member Paula Muysenberg, we are able to offer them
 >to our members in .html format, clean and readable. They are: So great
 >Salvation, Disciplined by Grace, Grace and Truth, Shall Never Perish,
 >and First The Rapture. Paula does excellent and clean work with the help
 >of an optacon, braille displays and screen readers, even though her 4
 >home schooled children do their best to distract her.
 >
 >The Training of the Twelve by Alexander Balman Bruce, 19th century
 >pastor. This book was prepared and presented by Dennis Godin, another
 >BABINC member. A fairly lengthy study of Jesus time spent with the
 >disciples.
 >
 >Holiness: The False and the True by Harry A. Ironside. This book is a
 >testimony of his personal experiences during his early years with the
 >Salvation Army and his subsequent doctrinal conclusions given in the
 >second part of the book. A very interesting read.
 >
 >The Inheritance of the Church Saint by H. LaVern Schafer. This is his
 >master's thesis written for Dallas Seminary in 1951. You should also be
 >familiar with his booklets on the Christian Life found both in Christian
 >Book Share and the Braille Library.
 >
 >The New Testament: An Expanded Translation for the English reader by
 >Kenneth Wuest has been posted on the Greek New Testament and Christian
 >Bookshare pages. It has been reformatted in one digital file so that you
 >can search for book, chapter and verse. A period after a verse number
 >indicates Wuest's paragraph divisions. It is hoped that this work will
 >help non-Greek students as well as Greek students to understand better
 >the meaning implied by the original Koine verbs and their grammatical
 >forms. It is best used alongside your favorite translation.
 >
 >The September 8-12 Bartimaeus Bible Conference was a blessing to those
 >in attendance. The messages were recorded and have been linked to the
 >home page. Messages were presented by David Spurbeck, Ron Matlock and
 >George Gray. Check them out. BTW, the 2009 Bartimaeus Bible Conference
 >will be held September 14th to 18th. Read more details at the link on
 >the Home Page.
 >
 >Greek tools: Machen's New Testament Greek for Beginners has been added
 >to the Greek Study Aids section, along with the first four volumes of
 >Dana and Mantey's "A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, also
 >posted. The last two volumes are being proof read.
 >An unaccented version of the Byzantine Majority GNT with braille coded
 >letters has been posted on the Greek New Testaments webpage.
 >Also, a fully accented edition of the Greek New Testament is being
 >prepared and posted on the Greek New Testament page. This is primarily
 >based on the United Bible Society 4th and 2nd editions with a small
 >amount of editing of variants. I have been assisted in this project by
 >Professors Dale and David Spurbeck of the Dispensational Theological
 >Seminary in Cherry Grove Oregon. (You doubtless recognize the name
 >Spurbeck from the sermon outlines and other materials by David Spurbeck
 >already posted on our website.) This GNT differs from the Bartimaeus
 >Unaccented Edition of the GNT which was primarily based on the
 >Stephanos/Textus Receptus text. A formatting error was fixed in volume
 >6 of of the Unaccented Edition at First Corinthians 10:9. This required
 >an 8 page reformat. Hopefully this fixed the problem of having to add
 >an additional line in that verse to fit the two missing words into the
 >text. Also, if you have previously downloaded the Nestle-Aland
 >unaccented GNT, filename bgc.brf, chapter and verse numbering in the
 >books of Jude and Revelation have been fixed and now read properly
 >throughout the file.
 >
 >"The Christian In Christ" book by David Spurbeck, formerly only in
 >braille, has been posted in Christian Book Share.
 >Work continues slowly on the Weingreen's Classical Hebrew Grammar. It
 >has been OBR scanned and is being proof read. Watch the What's New page
 >for updates.
 >
 >You might enjoy reading the article "In The Country of the Blind" on the
 >Public Domain page. It is the first one. It also has a link to the H.G.
 >Wells story "The Country of the Blind".
 >
 >Always check the Whats New page for the latest posts. There are usually a
 >couple of items every month.
 >
 >May your coming Holiday truly be a thankful one.
 >
 >In His service,
 >
 >Grant E. Metcalf
 >Bartimaeus Alliance of the Blind, Inc.
 >P.O. Box 572
 >South San Francisco, CA 94083-0572
 >Phone: 650 589-6890
 >Email: <mailto:admin%40bartimaeus.us>admin at bartimaeus.us (Business)
 >Email: <mailto:thegems%40dslextreme.com>thegems at dslextreme.com (personal)
 >Visit the Home Page at: <http://bartimaeus.us>http://bartimaeus.us







From mentink at frontiernet.net  Sat Nov 29 03:15:27 2008
From: mentink at frontiernet.net (Linda Mentink)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 21:15:27 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] For Your Information
Message-ID: <20081129033300.781411A03E3@relay03.roch.ny.frontiernet.net>

Hi all,

Penny Golden sent this to another list.  She's no longer on this one, 
so I thought I'd pass it along.--Linda



Grant Metcalf maintains an online library for the blind. it's easy to join the
library; nothing is sent through the mail, as far as I know. it's all 
there for you to look at and read or download; you must be a member 
to use all the features. but to join, you only have to be blind--as 
far as I know.
You might want to check out his web-site.

 > From "Grant E. Metcalf" 
<<mailto:thegems%40dslextreme.com>thegems at dslextreme.com>

 >It has been over six months since the last update. If you haven't kept
 >up with the What's New page, here goes.
 >The Annotated Bible Commentary by Arno C. Gaebelein has been finished.
 >Why You Should Believe In the Trinity by Robert Bowman. This book was
 >written to counter the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses, sometimes
 >referred to as "modalism" or "Sabelllianism". Posted on the Christian
 >Book Share page.
 >A Seminary class outline on the Trinity has been posted both with and
 >without texts of Scripture references included--Public Domain Section.
 >Henry Theisen's Introduction to the New Testament has been posted.
 >Two books by Alva J. Mcclain: "Romans" as well as "Law and Grace" are
 >now available. This latter book, Law and Grace, is a must read--a
 >classic on the subject, yet brief--Christian Book Share
 >Is The Bible Sufficient For Counseling? by Andy Bustanoby has been
 >posted on his personal page. This book, written by a retired pastor and
 >Christian Family Counselor, asked if it could be offered publicly on our
 >website.
 >The study booklet Worship by David Jeremiah has been posted.
 >A link to the Bible Study Manuals website has been added to the Links
 >page. This site can provide you with lots of information and/or
 >interesting materials. There is also a link to some Thomas Ice articles.
 >
 >Five books by John Frederick Strombeck have been posted which are also
 >must reads. There are some links to .PDF posting on other sites, but
 >now, thanks to BABINC member Paula Muysenberg, we are able to offer them
 >to our members in .html format, clean and readable. They are: So great
 >Salvation, Disciplined by Grace, Grace and Truth, Shall Never Perish,
 >and First The Rapture. Paula does excellent and clean work with the help
 >of an optacon, braille displays and screen readers, even though her 4
 >home schooled children do their best to distract her.
 >
 >The Training of the Twelve by Alexander Balman Bruce, 19th century
 >pastor. This book was prepared and presented by Dennis Godin, another
 >BABINC member. A fairly lengthy study of Jesus time spent with the
 >disciples.
 >
 >Holiness: The False and the True by Harry A. Ironside. This book is a
 >testimony of his personal experiences during his early years with the
 >Salvation Army and his subsequent doctrinal conclusions given in the
 >second part of the book. A very interesting read.
 >
 >The Inheritance of the Church Saint by H. LaVern Schafer. This is his
 >master's thesis written for Dallas Seminary in 1951. You should also be
 >familiar with his booklets on the Christian Life found both in Christian
 >Book Share and the Braille Library.
 >
 >The New Testament: An Expanded Translation for the English reader by
 >Kenneth Wuest has been posted on the Greek New Testament and Christian
 >Bookshare pages. It has been reformatted in one digital file so that you
 >can search for book, chapter and verse. A period after a verse number
 >indicates Wuest's paragraph divisions. It is hoped that this work will
 >help non-Greek students as well as Greek students to understand better
 >the meaning implied by the original Koine verbs and their grammatical
 >forms. It is best used alongside your favorite translation.
 >
 >The September 8-12 Bartimaeus Bible Conference was a blessing to those
 >in attendance. The messages were recorded and have been linked to the
 >home page. Messages were presented by David Spurbeck, Ron Matlock and
 >George Gray. Check them out. BTW, the 2009 Bartimaeus Bible Conference
 >will be held September 14th to 18th. Read more details at the link on
 >the Home Page.
 >
 >Greek tools: Machen's New Testament Greek for Beginners has been added
 >to the Greek Study Aids section, along with the first four volumes of
 >Dana and Mantey's "A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, also
 >posted. The last two volumes are being proof read.
 >An unaccented version of the Byzantine Majority GNT with braille coded
 >letters has been posted on the Greek New Testaments webpage.
 >Also, a fully accented edition of the Greek New Testament is being
 >prepared and posted on the Greek New Testament page. This is primarily
 >based on the United Bible Society 4th and 2nd editions with a small
 >amount of editing of variants. I have been assisted in this project by
 >Professors Dale and David Spurbeck of the Dispensational Theological
 >Seminary in Cherry Grove Oregon. (You doubtless recognize the name
 >Spurbeck from the sermon outlines and other materials by David Spurbeck
 >already posted on our website.) This GNT differs from the Bartimaeus
 >Unaccented Edition of the GNT which was primarily based on the
 >Stephanos/Textus Receptus text. A formatting error was fixed in volume
 >6 of of the Unaccented Edition at First Corinthians 10:9. This required
 >an 8 page reformat. Hopefully this fixed the problem of having to add
 >an additional line in that verse to fit the two missing words into the
 >text. Also, if you have previously downloaded the Nestle-Aland
 >unaccented GNT, filename bgc.brf, chapter and verse numbering in the
 >books of Jude and Revelation have been fixed and now read properly
 >throughout the file.
 >
 >"The Christian In Christ" book by David Spurbeck, formerly only in
 >braille, has been posted in Christian Book Share.
 >Work continues slowly on the Weingreen's Classical Hebrew Grammar. It
 >has been OBR scanned and is being proof read. Watch the What's New page
 >for updates.
 >
 >You might enjoy reading the article "In The Country of the Blind" on the
 >Public Domain page. It is the first one. It also has a link to the H.G.
 >Wells story "The Country of the Blind".
 >
 >Always check the Whats New page for the latest posts. There are usually a
 >couple of items every month.
 >
 >May your coming Holiday truly be a thankful one.
 >
 >In His service,
 >
 >Grant E. Metcalf
 >Bartimaeus Alliance of the Blind, Inc.
 >P.O. Box 572
 >South San Francisco, CA 94083-0572
 >Phone: 650 589-6890
 >Email: <mailto:admin%40bartimaeus.us>admin at bartimaeus.us (Business)
 >Email: <mailto:thegems%40dslextreme.com>thegems at dslextreme.com (personal)
 >Visit the Home Page at: <http://bartimaeus.us>http://bartimaeus.us







From jordanj229 at verizon.net  Sun Nov 30 01:39:12 2008
From: jordanj229 at verizon.net (joanne)
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 20:39:12 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Christian Radio In Boston?
In-Reply-To: <000301c9509f$4c37fe90$f96aa463@IBMB7D6F383D44>
Message-ID: <0KB400GBDHX9FS6H@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net>

Hello Everett
This is Joanne Jordan here.  I live in a suburb of Boston but I don't know
of any Christian radio stations, but I would like to know about some as
well.  I don't know how to search for them.
Maybe we can Google it and see what we come up with.  I can do that when I
have more time.
Thanks for asking the question.




From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Sun Nov 30 11:46:33 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 05:46:33 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Christian Radio In Boston?
References: <0KB400GBDHX9FS6H@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net>
Message-ID: <4F1849C60A4445FE9615A3F16D429B24@your4dacd0ea75>

Well, if the site I gave you didn't work, try either of these:

www.mikesradioworld.com
or
www.billsparks.org
Mikes Radio World has changed their U.S. sites quite a bit, but it may be 
you can find something there.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "joanne" <jordanj229 at verizon.net>
To: "'Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion'" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 7:39 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Christian Radio In Boston?


> Hello Everett
> This is Joanne Jordan here.  I live in a suburb of Boston but I don't know
> of any Christian radio stations, but I would like to know about some as
> well.  I don't know how to search for them.
> Maybe we can Google it and see what we come up with.  I can do that when I
> have more time.
> Thanks for asking the question.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.11/1820 - Release Date: 11/29/2008 
6:52 PM




From kk3f at msn.com  Sun Nov 30 14:19:01 2008
From: kk3f at msn.com (Pat Gormley)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 09:19:01 -0500
Subject: [Faith-talk] Christian radio in Boston
Message-ID: <BAY133-DAV132BD17DAC1EBBFF13331090060@phx.gbl>

Julie I just was over on Mike's radio world and the sample given didn't indicate there were any stations in Boston using that format.  However, a lot of stations have cut off their internet streams because of format changes or cost.  For example, I recently was in the d.c. area and a lot of stations that were fixtures on the dial have changed formats or in some instances have gone off the air completely.  Wctn was a Christian station for years and has changed to a Chorean format.  

From jcvogt at pressenter.com  Sun Nov 30 14:44:38 2008
From: jcvogt at pressenter.com (Julie C. Vogt)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 08:44:38 -0600
Subject: [Faith-talk] Christian radio in Boston
References: <BAY133-DAV132BD17DAC1EBBFF13331090060@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <23641F84B0854D8F946C856C954D165A@your4dacd0ea75>

Well, one criticism I have of Mike's Radio World now is that they only list 
"their pick" for U.S. stations, yet they have U.S. I, II, and III, a 
duplication of the same thing.  It used to be easier to find what you were 
looking for there.  Those are the only sites I use and was just trying to be 
helpful.  I work every day on my computer and am glad when I have something 
I like to listen to.

If you go to Items of Interest link at
www.vipconduit.com
you might have even better luck.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Pat Gormley" <kk3f at msn.com>
To: <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 8:19 AM
Subject: [Faith-talk] Christian radio in Boston


> Julie I just was over on Mike's radio world and the sample given didn't 
> indicate there were any stations in Boston using that format.  However, a 
> lot of stations have cut off their internet streams because of format 
> changes or cost.  For example, I recently was in the d.c. area and a lot 
> of stations that were fixtures on the dial have changed formats or in some 
> instances have gone off the air completely.  Wctn was a Christian station 
> for years and has changed to a Chorean format.
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jcvogt%40pressenter.com
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.11/1820 - Release Date: 11/29/2008 
6:52 PM




