[Dtb-talk] I Guess That Several People Know.
Greg Kearney
gkearney at gmail.com
Sun Sep 16 20:33:57 CDT 2007
Hold one everyone! Let's all take a few deep breaths here. I haven't
been gagged. Let's all just calm down. I'm sure we all agree that we
want what's best for the blind and print disable in library services
no matter what form that takes in the future.
My feeling on this issue are well know. I have made them known in
person to the staff of the NLS. But all that being the case no one is
forcing me, as one of the few independent producers of digital talking
book at the moment, to adopt any for of protection. The NLS players
work very well with the books I have made. I expect them to do so in
the future.
The future is bight for this technology both for the disables and for
the wider community. I didn't intend to create problems for list or
its members.
Greg Kearney
On Sep 16, 2007, at 7:22 PM, David Andrews wrote:
> I have not yet gagged anybody, and I also think that it is a shame
> that you have to try and turn this thread into a blindness political
> thing.
>
> We have been through this discussion here in the past and I see no
> reason to repeat it again. Anybody curious can turn to the archives.
>
> David Andrews, Moderator
>
> At 06:18 PM 9/16/2007, you wrote:
>> I find it extraordinary that a person doing nothing more than to
>> voice
>> views held by almost every free-thinking consumer of digital
>> materials is
>> being gagged as if they were publishing a method for breaking an
>> encryption
>> mechanism.
>>
>> I wonder why it is that so many music publishers are actually
>> offering
>> DRM-free music in the last 12 months. Is it that they see the
>> futility of
>> the DRM approach, and realise that it does nothing more than alienate
>> potential customers and restrict freedoms to listen when and where
>> you want?
>>
>> Books are not DRM'd and if NFB wants the blind community to have
>> equivalent
>> access they perhaps shouldn't be promoting systems which restrict
>> blind
>> people from flexible reading options, or at any rate not gagging
>> free speech
>> on this subject.
>>
>> Tim
>>
>> Tim Noonan
>> Tim Noonan Consulting Pty Ltd: Excellence in Accessibility and
>> Usability
>> +61 419 779 669
>> tim at timnoonan.com.au
>> Skype:TimNoonan
>> Consulting: www.timnoonan.com.au
>> Speaking: www.visionarycommunications.com.au
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: dtb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:dtb-talk-
>> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Greg Kearney
>> Sent: Monday, 17 September 2007 3:02 AM
>> To: Discussion of Digital Talking Books
>> Cc: David Andrews
>> Subject: Re: [Dtb-talk] I Guess That Several People Know.
>>
>> I am NOT promoting the breaking the NLS encryption! To break the
>> encryption system would be a violation of law. No one should break
>> the
>> law and I have no intention of doing so. I know how, for example, to
>> decode RFB&D AudioPlus books but I have never told anyone how to do
>> this nor would I. It would be illegal for me to do so.
>>
>> What I am saying, however, is that it will be broken like it or not.
>> This is a fact of life in the modern digital world. No scheme of
>> encryption is unbreakable and there will be those, not myself as I am
>> an NLS patron and will get a player at some point anyway, but there
>> will be those who will break the scheme.
>>
>> I should be clear however I AM NOT PROMOTION THE BREAKING OF THE
>> ENCRYPTION. I am critical of the encryption. I think it is
>> wasteful, I
>> think it has no benefit to either the patron the NLS or even the
>> publishers who, by their very actions, prove they could care less
>> about digital right management in audio books. Saying that something
>> will happen, is not promoting that it should happen.
>>
>> Greg Kearney
>> On Sep 16, 2007, at 10:37 AM, David Andrews wrote:
>>
>>> Greg and others:
>>>
>>> First, as Moderator of this list I am hereby clearly stating that
>>> this list will not be used to promote or facilitate the breaking of
>>> NLS's copy protection system. If you continue such promotion I will
>>> ban you from the list.
>>>
>>> NLS has no choice but to employ encryption methods. They are a part
>>> of the same department as the copyright office. By law they have to
>>> put their books in some kind of "specialized format." And DAISY by
>>> itself isn't enough, as there are audio files as a part of the work.
>>>
>>> With the increased use of audio books pirating is a concern to all.
>>> For you to say it isn't of interest to publishers is naive I think.
>>> And, you are also in no position to necessarily know if there have
>>> been pirating problems with NLS books in the past. There very well
>>> could have been, and you wouldn't necessarily know it.
>>>
>>> No one likes copy protection or encryption, but until the whole
>>> system changes, we must use it in some instances.
>>>
>>> David Andrews, Moderator and List Owner
>>>
>>> At 09:47 AM 9/15/2007, you wrote:
>>>> I have seen and used one of the NLS players. They are nice machines
>>>> and very well designed and I have serious doubts that I, as a
>>>> sighted
>>>> dyslexic user of the NLS, will ever have one to use.
>>>>
>>>> The player has two USB ports one is for the carriages and the other
>>>> is
>>>> a standard sized one on the side of the unit. I was able to play a
>>>> non-
>>>> encrypted books that I had produced myself, the 2007 NFB conference
>>>> agenda and the Bible, from a standard commercial USB pen drive
>>>> without
>>>> any trouble. I just coped all the DAISY files to the root level of
>>>> the
>>>> pen drive as I would a CD.
>>>>
>>>> Now on to why I feel I will never see one of these players for my
>>>> own
>>>> use. The problem stems with the way that the NLS is making books
>>>> for
>>>> the program. The books that NLS are producing are in DIASY/NISO
>>>> 2002
>>>> with both the DIASY files and the audio encrypted. In addition the
>>>> audio is in a somewhat unusual format. This was done so as to
>>>> prevent
>>>> copying of the books. The trouble is all this does is add to the
>>>> cost
>>>> of the player it does not prevent copying.
>>>>
>>>> It is my opinion that when you do these kinds of thing all you do
>>>> is
>>>> to encourage some to break the encryption. It becomes a challenge
>>>> or
>>>> sport to them. All you need to break encryption is the encrypted
>>>> material and some knowage of what is being broken. While having a
>>>> software player that could decrypt the book would be helpful and
>>>> make
>>>> the work simpler it is not at all needed. Because the books are
>>>> know
>>>> to decrypt to DIASY/NISO 200 a published standard anyone seeking to
>>>> write a decipher is half way there already. They know what for the
>>>> plain text will take. They also know what the sound should be as
>>>> they
>>>> would have access to the print book. If the motion picture industry
>>>> is
>>>> unable to keep ahead of hackers on the internet what chance does
>>>> the
>>>> NLS have?
>>>>
>>>> In all the years we have had a talking book program I do not
>>>> believe
>>>> there has ever been a serious problem with copying the audio. So it
>>>> is
>>>> a solution looking for a problem to solve. Further it is not an
>>>> issue
>>>> that the publishers themselves seem much concerned with given that
>>>> they permit the sale and library loan of non-encrypted
>>>> unprotected CD
>>>> recording of books. If the publishers don't care why should the NLS
>>>> spend it money dealing with the issue. The fact is you can walk
>>>> into
>>>> most public libraries and, for free mind you, get an unprotected
>>>> digital recording of many popular titles. I even have an option
>>>> in my
>>>> DTBmaker program to convert these to DAISY. The DAISY version are
>>>> much
>>>> smaller than the commercial ones even with the navigation included.
>>>> The cost saving to the publishers in adopting DAISY in disks alone
>>>> would be significant.
>>>>
>>>> So here is my prediction: Long before I ever see one of these
>>>> players
>>>> the NLS encryption will be broken by someone and tools to decrypt
>>>> the
>>>> books will be all over the internet. NLS will then give up on the
>>>> encryption system. DAISY will become an accepted standard and we
>>>> will
>>>> all just go down to WalMart and buy what ever kind of player we
>>>> want.
>>>>
>>>> I have been working with Apple on a integrated DAISY playback for
>>>> the
>>>> MacOS and, perhaps for the iPod as well, I have to assume that
>>>> Microsoft is doing the same. The fact is that this kind of
>>>> technology
>>>> moves much to fast for an organization as lethargic as the NLS to
>>>> be
>>>> any kind of a player in. The U.S. is one of the last national
>>>> libraries systems to make this transition. CNIB has had it for 10
>>>> years now, the Scandinavians even longer than that. Most have given
>>>> up
>>>> on the encrypted books system and many have books that are
>>>> playable,
>>>> if not navigable, in off the self MP3 players. Encrypted DAISY is
>>>> yesterday's technology like protected music it is being cast aside
>>>> even as we speak. Encryption is a fools errand. It not only will
>>>> never
>>>> work but it only draws attention to itself in ways that had it not
>>>> been there most people, outside of the community of the blind and
>>>> dyslexics, would never have known that NLS books existed.
>>>>
>>>> Greg Kearney
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sep 15, 2007, at 7:43 AM, Mike Freeman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Daniel:
>>>>>
>>>>> I believe that the NLS player will be able to play MP3 files.
>>>>> However, it will not handle files in folders nor will it handle
>>>>> text
>>>>> files, i.e., it will not have text-to-speech capability. Remember,
>>>>> its primary job will be to play NLS talking books. I doubt the
>>>>> American public would be very enthusiastic about subsidizing
>>>>> players
>>>>> for blind folks that, theoretically, at least, could compete (even
>>>>> to a small extent) with commercial players. This is especially
>>>>> true
>>>>> given the flap this spring and summer about the NLS dtb program.
>>>>>
>>>>> Moreover, David Andrews tells us that the initial run of players
>>>>> by
>>>>> law will be sent to blinded veterans. If, like me, Uncle Sam did
>>>>> not
>>>>> se fit to allow you to serve him in the military, that puts you
>>>>> very
>>>>> low on the totum pole insofar as getting a player for the first
>>>>> year
>>>>> or perhaps two is concerned.
>>>>>
>>>>> Additionally, while the NLS players will have a USB connection (at
>>>>> least last time I heard), it will function primarily with a
>>>>> cartridge looking something like the current cassette. To be sure,
>>>>> it will contain a flash drive (read a SD card) but it will take
>>>>> third-party devices to make such cartridges that the player can
>>>>> directly use. This last may change but this is the last info I
>>>>> had.
>>>>>
>>>>> Given all this, if you truly want to read digital talking books
>>>>> from
>>>>> NLS before, say, 2010, your best bet is probably to purchase a
>>>>> Victor Reader Stream or wait for a version of the Book Port
>>>>> software
>>>>> or the new Book Port which purportedly *might* be able to handle
>>>>> the
>>>>> NLS talking books.
>>>>>
>>>>> With respect to the Book Port, however, I confess that I have my
>>>>> doubts although it would be nice.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From:
>>>>> mailto:dvejil at sbcglobal.net Daniel Vejil
>>>>> To:
>>>>> mailto:dtb-talk at nfbnet.org Discussion of Digital Talking Books
>>>>> Sent:
>>>>> Friday, September 14, 2007 9:50 PM
>>>>> Subject:
>>>>> [Dtb-talk] I Guess That Several People Know.
>>>>> David Andrews Says:
>>>>>> The Stream is the only device available right now that will play
>>>>>> NLS
>>>>>> DTB's. NLS does not intend to license software-computer-based
>>>>>> players at this point. They are concerned about the copy
>>>>>> protection
>>>>>> being broken.
>>>>>> ----
>>>>> Daniel Vejil Replies:
>>>>> Since Victor Reader Soft is capable of playing Niso books, I was
>>>>> hoping
>>>>> that NLS would enable it to play their books. It would open the
>>>>> Pilot
>>>>> Program up to people who had a computer, but not enough money to
>>>>> purchase
>>>>> The Stream At this point. However, it makes sense that they
>>>>> wouldn't want
>>>>> to compromise their File Protection System, and it also gives
>>>>> participants
>>>>> the ability to take their books with them, without being tied to a
>>>>> keyboard
>>>>> and a computer.
>>>>> ....
>>>>> Daniel Also Says:
>>>>>> So, okay, do I buy the Victor Stream now, or do I wait on NLS to
>>>>>> provide
>>>>>> me with a player? I mean--Victor Stream plays different types of
>>>>>> Audio
>>>>>> files, Text files, ETC., but is the NLS Player going to play
>>>>>> all of
>>>>>> these
>>>>>> types of files too?
>>>>> Historically, record and cassette players have been able to play
>>>>> NLS
>>>>> format
>>>>> as well as commercial format materials, and I am wondering if this
>>>>> trend
>>>>> will continue, or if purchasing an Approximately $300 third-party
>>>>> player is
>>>>> the better way to go, as it allows for more file flexibility.
>>>>> Any and all advice is appreciated,
>>>>> Daniel Vejil
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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